S&B Rogues! Why?

[karl_k0ch]

That is all.

[Crazyfruit]

Vorpal shields, duh! :)

[karl_k0ch]

Vorpal shields, duh! :)

>:[

Also:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Crazyfruit again.

[blerkington]

Hi,

I can think of two reasons for doing this with a rogue.

1. Problems with hitting and being hit at low levels. I always laugh (only to myself, of course) when I see low level toons running around with two weapons equipped. The penalties to hit, even with flanking bonuses are pretty horrifying, and a decent AC can do a lot to help a squishy person survive.

2. Feat starvation. If you don't take the TWF chain, you do free up some feat slots for other things, which might be nice on a rogue. Not that I built my rogue that way, but I can see the idea.

Thanks.

[Bodic]

I advocate using a shield until at least ITWF as it can make AC matter and your TWF 2hit is in the mud.

[karl_k0ch]

I am talking about level 16-18, acually.

[DoctorWhofan]

My clogue carries a shield...but she's mostly cleric. But a low levels it sure looks strange!

Otherwise, something to put in the off hand?

[Havok.cry]

Are you talking about a pure rogue, a pure rouge, a rogue with a splash, a rogue with a deep multiclass? My rogue started as a Horc big effin stick build, but after finding it to be quite squishy at mid levels I LRed out the monk for fighter and amcurrently lvl13 with theif acrobat I and stalwart defender I. Will be acrobat2, SD1 at 20. I was switching between s&b and THF, but found I was killing stuff a tad faster with S&B so mostly stay with that now. I have Imp shield bash and shield mastery, Ithf, toughnes, CE, bastard sword prof, and imp feint at lvl 13. At 20 will add gthf, and trying to pick between PA and Imp shield mastery. The build deos get to the high AC range needed for an AC tank, spams Intimi, and gets sneak attack while holding aggro. It may not be the best elite end game build of doom, but I am having a blast on it.

Edit when i said s&b was killing stuff faster than thf, i was refering specifically to quarterstaff use not anything else.

[Asketes]

I just use a 2hander for a while :rolleyes:

[porq]

Can't be any worse than that barbarian I saw earlier going S&B style :rolleyes:

[Gkar]

I am talking about level 16-18, acually.

Low level I get it.

At that level... I got nothing.

It's kind of like last night I saw a THF rogue and I wanted to scream at him for cutting his sneak damage in half. Especially when I checked him out and his strength was only 20 lol

[Bodic]

well in terms of high lvl for flavor
a dex based rogue can make a decent off intim.
again flavor gear'd and a skilled rogue player at the helm it can be viable. this would not be an optimal dps build, but could still get some, and as someone said "vorpal shield bash FTW"

[Khimberlhyte]

Why would you want anything other than a shield in the off-hand of a shuriken-specialist halfling tosser build?

[Sarisa]

Grasping at straws...level 16 Swashbuckler maybe? Only worthwhile shield I know of to use in melee in non-tanking situations on a Rogue.

[parowan]

There are occasions when I equip a shield (T3 epic swashie) on my capped pure assassin. Mostly when I'm helping with a "meat wall" tactic and not actually attacking.

To save space on my hotbar I have my imp destruction rapier in a set with the shield, so I guess you could say I'm S&B at times against epic Malicia or if painting a target, but that's just for 1 hit before it's back to my dastardly double backstabbing ways.

[voodoogroves]

We had a S&B Ranger on Ghallanda for a while ... no joke ... not sure what happened to him

[grodon9999]

We had a S&B Ranger on Ghallanda for a while ... no joke ... not sure what happened to him

He was a S&B ranger, with rogue-splash, who wore DT Plate armor.

[lhidda]

that Is All.

S&b?

[Cardtrick]

Are you seeing them going around with a shield equipped all the time? Or just switching to it?

I always keep a shield on all of my characters, and my capped rogue actually had to switch to it occasionally. When I group, it's strictly in PUGs, and sometimes the tank or the healer just isn't that great. I would say the Horoth tank dies in at least 50% of PUGged ToDs, for example. My rogue would usually get aggro if the tank went down, so it was good to be able to switch to a tower shield, turn him away from the rest of the party, and turtle for a bit while things got sorted out.

[voodoogroves]

He was a S&B ranger, with rogue-splash, who wore DT Plate armor.

I had a few times I tried to reach out, explain things, kinda get him to open up about the build and what he was really trying to do. Tried to help educate his SO as well on some of the finer points of casting too.

I'm all about the open mind and playing with anyone but man, sometimes it's just exhausting.

[kcru]

well in terms of high lvl for flavor
a dex based rogue can make a decent off intim.
again flavor gear'd and a skilled rogue player at the helm it can be viable. this would not be an optimal dps build, but could still get some, and as someone said "vorpal shield bash FTW"


With the new shield feats, you can make a shield into an offhand weapon jsut like twf... won't do as much damage of course, but there it is.


That said, Swashbuckler is damned sexy even if you have **** AC. guardbreaking.... woah.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Everyone should carry a shield. Maybe even a Tower Shield....
Just for shield blocking.
Like with your back in a corner while you pot/wand heal back up to fighting Str. This works very well btw. (and of course you actually have to carry some self healing to pull this off.... :rolleyes: )

At low lvls, AC does matter. And TWF penalties hurt.... everyone... bad.

But if you can hit it, a Rogue does way more DPS with two weps. Way more! If you can hit it!

On Epics, low BaB rogues may want to switch to a single wep to hit high AC monsters.



There is actually some cool stuff we can craft on shields now.
May not be great for epics, but I could see trying to craft a specific type of shield to help against high AC mobs....on a low geared Rogue.

[Azhanti]

I carry a small shield on my rogue because I havn't got round to getting a second muckbane yet, if I just clicked Muckbane I could end up hitting oozes with something expensive in the offhand, Muckbane/Shield set stops that.

[karl_k0ch]

We were running around in monastery, killing scorpions, casters and monks. Iirc, the rogue was wielding the shield all the time.


S&b?

Yes, exactly. :)







S&B = Sword and Broad, ie fighting with a one-handed weapon and a shield. Which makes perfectly sense if you have 224 HP at level 18 and use the shield mastery feat to compensate.

[kernal42]

On Epics, low BaB rogues may want to switch to a single wep to hit high AC monsters.


Unlikely. Getting half as many attacks for +2 to-hit is a poor tradeoff for characters whose damage comes mostly from on-hit effects (like rogues). The break-even point is probably around 18; that is, if you're hitting on an 18, stay TWF. If you're missing on a 18, THF is probably better.

Of course, if you're missing on a 18, you'll continue to be useless even if you swap to THF.

-Kernal

[Bodic]

He was a S&B ranger, with rogue-splash, who wore DT Plate armor.


We had a S&B Ranger on Ghallanda for a while ... no joke ... not sure what happened to him

He was supposed to be deleted after losing a bet I know for a fact he didnt comply. he made it to 13 on double TR more fighter and not only was it a ranger with shield but it was tower's.
In his first life he was the bar if you were told that rogue x can do xyz better on Gland you knew you fouled up.

[Cam_Neely]

On Epics, low BaB rogues may want to switch to a single wep to hit high AC monsters.

There are many things that low BaB DPS members of epic parties should be doing if they cant hit targets. Switching to S&B is way down on that list. Closer to the top would be, improved destruction, destruction, not running epics and considering why their BaB is so low, running other quests for better gear, and asking for advice.

[Barthax]

S&B = Sword and Broad, ie fighting with a one-handed weapon and a shield.

Wouldn't that be fighting with a one-handed weapon and a Sheila?

:P

[phalaeo]

It's nice that so many folks are giving hypothetical rationalizations... it makes me smile.

"Maybe he was low-level, didn't take TWF yet and had an uber Rapier in the bank, but he's one level short of the Rapier's ML, so a Fairy Godmother heard his plea echoing through the cavernous passageways of Waterworks, flew (or twitted?) her way to the AH, and bought the Rouge a Shield. The shield might have had a really ugly skin, but the Rogue didn't want to offend his gracious gift-giver, so that's why he's a Rogue that just "looks" like he's Sword and Boarding it."


:p


Jokes aside, just last week I saw two, count them, TWO Rogues who Sword and Boarded an entire Shroud, portals and all. It was amazing.

[Bargol]

It's nice that so many folks are giving hypothetical rationalizations... it makes me smile.

"Maybe he was low-level, didn't take TWF yet and had an uber Rapier in the bank, but he's one level short of the Rapier's ML, so a Fairy Godmother heard his plea echoing through the cavernous passageways of Waterworks, flew (or twitted?) her way to the AH, and bought the Rouge a Shield. The shield might have had a really ugly skin, but the Rogue didn't want to offend his gracious gift-giver, so that's why he's a Rogue that just "looks" like he's Sword and Boarding it."


:p


Jokes aside, just last week I saw two, count them, TWO Rogues who Sword and Boarded an entire Shroud, portals and all. It was amazing.

Those portals can really dish out the damage. I had a "new" cleric in a shroud run complaining how the portals were damaging my barb. :D

[Khanyth]

Why?

Because they're on Orien baby!!!!!!!! that's why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KoboldKiller]

Maybe it's because that's how they prefer to play their alt?

Are we back to posting "this is how you should play or don't play at all" threads?

Many people play for different reasons and enjoy a different "flavor" for their alts.

I made a Helf AA. Was that optimal, probably not, but I chose Helf for the flavor of the build.

I don't mean to sound snippy but people do what they do for their own enjoyment, that's the point of playing a game.

[Adarro]

Wouldn't that be fighting with a one-handed weapon and a Sheila?

:P

Ooh... I wanna craft a Vorpal Broad!

[SableShadow]

Ooh... I wanna craft a Vorpal Broad!

Don't mess with her, man ... she'll take your head off! Srsly!

[Daggerswan]

My rogue/fighter did not use a shield on his first life. I decided to experiment at level 17 when the new feats came out and found him to be much more survivable. I knew the build would not work with epic/endgame so I stayed at 18 until I could TR. He is on his second life now (rogue/fighter again), but this time planned specifically to use a shield. He plays very well and I am having tons of fun. For as long as I avoid epic/endgame I don't see what the problem is. You guys who have been bagging the playstyle need to qualify your responses to make me believe you know what you are talking about.

[Illiain]

Ooh... I wanna craft a Vorpal Broad!

Hell hath no fury like a Vorpal Broad... sword?

[stoerm]

If I'd get stuck on "why did you do that" when we're talking about my parents and a computer, I'd go insane. I just bite my tongue and deal with it.

I dare say *most* people are not experts and don't even aspire to be. They just have fun.

[kernal42]

My rogue/fighter did not use a shield on his first life. I decided to experiment at level 17 when the new feats came out and found him to be much more survivable. I knew the build would not work with epic/endgame so I stayed at 18 until I could TR. He is on his second life now (rogue/fighter again), but this time planned specifically to use a shield. He plays very well and I am having tons of fun. For as long as I avoid epic/endgame I don't see what the problem is. You guys who have been bagging the playstyle need to qualify your responses to make me believe you know what you are talking about.

All the responses have in mind commonly-run, high-level content. As a prime example, consider The Thirteenth Eclipse.

The quest has three parts: Puzzles, killing wimpy enemies, and fighting the boss Arraetrikos.
Anyone can solve the puzzles.
The wimpy enemies die easily and pose little threat.
Fighting the boss is where your melee combat style is relevant.

Arraetrikos tends to attack a random party member, and occasionally casts spells. For a raid of 12 characters, this means you'll be his target about 8% of the time. Supposing that the shield makes the difference between you never being hit and always being hit (which it doesn't), you're trading your offhand attacks (a +75% dps increase) for taking less damage 8% of the time.

That is a bad tradeoff.

Even ignoring such a perfect example, S&B rogue is especially bizzare. A S&B barbarian, while strange, could potentially make sense; barbarians, with large hp pools and DR, like having aggro. If you can get a workable AC on top of that, cool! There's a time and place for that (The Thirteenth Eclipse is not it; pick up a 2-hander already!).

On the other hand, a rogue doesn't want aggro. Nearly all of the rogue's combat abilities rely on monsters attacking someone else. If they're not attacking you, who cares what your AC is? Is it worth it to trade a +75% dps boost for a higher AC in the rare case that something attack you? IMO, no. Perhaps there are situations, for example in Amrath where monsters tend to have random aggro, where the extra AC pushes you out of danger and is worthwhile. Again; there may be a time and place to pull out the shield - but it will be rare.

All of this of course assumes you are grouping with other characters. If you're running solo - who cares? Do what you want to do.

Cheers
-Kernal

[Daggerswan]

@Kernal-

Thanks for qualifying your response. I appreciate it (no sarcasm here).

Although it is the ideal to avoid agro, sooner or later you will draw it and get killed. This playstyle gives me an extra 9 AC plus DR. Both those factors vastly improved my survivability. I have yet to ride in the cleric's backpack (and that alone makes it worthwhile). I did much more DPS before, but nowadays the group tends to have more fun not having to worry about the squishy rogue. Maybe I am just not skilled enough since this is my only rogue (I usually play a caster), but I have TRed two healers and I have a third up to 17. When I play them my worries are usually on the rogue (then the sorc who cannot manage agro, followed by the ranger who hasn't figured out that he can get more AC if he wore a robe).

*Disclaimer: I usually pug.

I do not always use a shield though. When toe-to-toe against a portal the 2-hander comes out. :)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My rogue/fighter did not use a shield on his first life. I decided to experiment at level 17 when the new feats came out and found him to be much more survivable. I knew the build would not work with epic/endgame so I stayed at 18 until I could TR. He is on his second life now (rogue/fighter again), but this time planned specifically to use a shield. He plays very well and I am having tons of fun. For as long as I avoid epic/endgame I don't see what the problem is. You guys who have been bagging the playstyle need to qualify your responses to make me believe you know what you are talking about.

I've experimented with Rogues and shields a little too. Mostly at lower lvls, when I was putting off getting TWF feat for some reason.

But I can tell you that a Rogue with two weapons does a lot more damage. a LOT!

Rogue SA damage can be up to almost 100pts of damage at lvl 20.
Monsters have a slight delay before they can agro on you, when they are agroed on someone else. So getting in as many SA hits as possible during that time can add up to some seriouly high damage numbers.

Rogues should use two weapons most of the time....seriously.

But of course it is not quite that simple.
TWF has a to hit penalty. And if you cannot hit it, you cannot hurt it. But even then, most people think the extra chance to hit from the second weapon makes up for it. (I say it depends)
At low lvls, I think rogues may be better off with S&B. Also with a +5 Wep instead of a +1 Burst of something too.....as SA damage really is a lot and hitting more often is more important for a Rogue IMO.

I also know that shields can make a survival difference even at higher lvls. Although I doubt if they matter at about lvl 16 quests on up. But Some people actually can get a decent AC, so for them it might help for more content.


One other thing to consider though, is that IMO, a properly played Rogue does not have agro!
If the monster is not agroed on you, your AC does not matter. (exceptions for cleaving type mobs...but you can learn to predict many of those attacks too)

Shields at high lvls also provide SB DR though. Which is still useful. But you can pout the shield in a quick slot and only equip it when needed for that. (I can understand walking through new areas of a dungeon with a shield on though.)

[Aesop]

I used to have an MC Shield Rogue... this was back before most of the PrEs were out and I still played her up to level 16... I haven't played her since then, but I do sorta miss her. She's still alive just sitting over on Argo but I haven't played heard in a long long time.

Of course back then I could still yank aggro off a barb if I wasn't careful and I was definitely not optimally built. She was a Drow using Short Swords (cheaper and easier to find)and she was my first character on Argo. She definitely survived some crazy situations that she sure shouldn't have and brought groups back from the brink more than a few times.

I can't even remember how many other class levels she had... I think it was 4 fighter and 3 paladin and 9 rogue. She was immune to fear and disease and had a weapon spec and a few other quirks she could umd fairly well, Raise dead and all that. HP were a little lower than I was thrilled with but then again she did not have a GFL item and was a little light on Con items... Like I said first character on the server.

She was still a lot of fun though.

Aesop