Pale Masters and Radiant Servants need to be fixed/updated

[Bzerk206]

Top of my list is pale masters, the first undead form Zombie is of little to no help. First off they lost spell points for the -2 to intelligence and they are further gimped with a 20% reduction in melee attack speed.....my question how is Zombie form helpful? Sure the self healing helps out if you are a soloist or constantly grouping with a healer that doesnt do their job, but 90% of the rest of the time.....its completely useless so please figure out a way that zombie form can actually be useful by ungimping it a little. (before some smart alec ask's, no I don't have any suggestions for this). My second thought about Pale Masters is that, even though I like how mass heals don't damage them in groups when questing. Healing them in PvP SHOULD kill them (just like with undead mobs). A Cleric or Fav Soul with superior devotion V item should be able to one shot them in PvP with Heal cause thats the weakness of the type of character they've chosen to be (gotta take the strengths with the weaknesses). Its not really fair that they get all the advantages of being undead without any of the weaknesses. They get Damage reduction, heavy fort, disease immunity, 20% incoporiality, generate less hate with spells, featherfall, and +20 to move silently all depending only on what form they are in....

Radiant Servant - Where is the 3rd level for this prestige? Its been out for how long now and still nothing? I wouldn't normally complain about this (as I know many of the PrE's only have 2 levels) but the Cleric only has 1 available prestige class. How about Superior Ardor IX (Radiant Ardor) as a 1-3 minute personal buff that consumes a use of the turn undead ability for the 3rd level (or something along those lines) or maybe something that causes the turn undeads to regenerate faster maybe even something similiar to the monks meditation.....either make a 3rd level for this or open up the other PrE's for Clerics PLEASE.

I haven't tried all the PrE's yet so these would be my main beefs THUSFAR, although I am working on my completionist feat and have just TR'd for the first time. I am sure there are more PrE's with problems but these two are the most glaringly obvious to me.

Just my 2 cents

[Lissyl]

Top of my list is pale masters, the first undead form Zombie is of little to no help. First off they lost spell points for the -2 to intelligence and they are further gimped with a 20% reduction in melee attack speed.....my question how is Zombie form helpful? Sure the self healing helps out if you are a soloist or constantly grouping with a healer that doesnt do their job, but 90% of the rest of the time.....its completely useless so please figure out a way that zombie form can actually be useful by ungimping it a little. (before some smart alec ask's, no I don't have any suggestions for this). My second thought about Pale Masters is that, even though I like how mass heals don't damage them in groups when questing. Healing them in PvP SHOULD kill them (just like with undead mobs). A Cleric or Fav Soul with superior devotion V item should be able to one shot them in PvP with Heal cause thats the weakness of the type of character they've chosen to be (gotta take the strengths with the weaknesses). Its not really fair that they get all the advantages of being undead without any of the weaknesses. They get Damage reduction, heavy fort, disease immunity, 20% incoporiality, generate less hate with spells, featherfall, and +20 to move silently all depending only on what form they are in....

Radiant Servant - Where is the 3rd level for this prestige? Its been out for how long now and still nothing? I wouldn't normally complain about this (as I know many of the PrE's only have 2 levels) but the Cleric only has 1 available prestige class. How about Superior Ardor IX (Radiant Ardor) as a 1-3 minute personal buff that consumes a use of the turn undead ability for the 3rd level (or something along those lines) or maybe something that causes the turn undeads to regenerate faster maybe even something similiar to the monks meditation.....either make a 3rd level for this or open up the other PrE's for Clerics PLEASE.

I haven't tried all the PrE's yet so these would be my main beefs THUSFAR, although I am working on my completionist feat and have just TR'd for the first time. I am sure there are more PrE's with problems but these two are the most glaringly obvious to me.

Just my 2 cents

Zombie Form is all about the DR. I can't imagine any other reason to take it, but again...if you don't have stuff laying around and readily available, that 5 DR is quite handy for a couple of levels, then you can respec out of it when you get Invulnerability. At level 6, it tends to go for a handy sum of plat. Dropping a Lesser Death Aura and keeping it ticking is enough to carry you solo through anything also (along with the DR), freeing up the TONS of money you'll spend on CLW potions to save for something better.

If you're yet another TR or have a ton of alts, then obviously this wouldn't apply.

[Emili]

Radiant Servant - Where is the 3rd level for this prestige? Its been out for how long now and still nothing? I wouldn't normally complain about this (as I know many of the PrE's only have 2 levels) but the Cleric only has 1 available prestige class. How about Superior Ardor IX (Radiant Ardor) as a 1-3 minute personal buff that consumes a use of the turn undead ability for the 3rd level (or something along those lines) or maybe something that causes the turn undeads to regenerate faster maybe even something similiar to the monks meditation.....either make a 3rd level for this or open up the other PrE's for Clerics PLEASE.


Just my 2 cents
Personaly am surprised bards have rarely complained about other classes PrE's being taken to last tier first... they precede all other classes in first tier PrE by a year, and it took the devs nearly four years to add the 2nd tier to them. ;) Not that clerics should not get tier three soon... but is just a thought.

[boomeranky]

Radiant Servant - Where is the 3rd level for this prestige? Its been out for how long now and still nothing? I wouldn't normally complain about this (as I know many of the PrE's only have 2 levels) but the Cleric only has 1 available prestige class. How about Superior Ardor IX (Radiant Ardor) as a 1-3 minute personal buff that consumes a use of the turn undead ability for the 3rd level (or something along those lines) or maybe something that causes the turn undeads to regenerate faster maybe even something similiar to the monks meditation.....either make a 3rd level for this or open up the other PrE's for Clerics PLEASE.



All in to a tier3 prestige for clerics.

But...

... superior ardor ix clicky? No thanks, there are plenty of superior ardor 8 clickies and i don't think turbine wants to invalidate the farming of them. That's what tod sets are actually giving now. And I might be wrong on that - but is (mass) heal even effected by ardor/devotion/potency? At least I thought it isn't.

... quicker turn regen? Sure, wouldn't dismiss it but actually the current regeneration rate is already quite high (I solely heal with turns in most epics and tod except for the tougher fights, and have problems in running out of turns).

I have no idea what a tier3 prestige for clerics should bring, but definitely not these or it will only disappoint.
Maybe a longer timed damaging aura like implosion would be nice with force or light damage, but not sure about that - the cries of being overpowered would be very loud after a few days in game.

[darkrune]

Top of my list is pale masters, the first undead form Zombie is of little to no help. First off they lost spell points for the -2 to intelligence and they are further gimped with a 20% reduction in melee attack speed.....my question how is Zombie form helpful? Sure the self healing helps out if you are a soloist or constantly grouping with a healer that doesnt do their job, but 90% of the rest of the time.....its completely useless so please figure out a way that zombie form can actually be useful by ungimping it a little. (before some smart alec ask's, no I don't have any suggestions for this). My second thought about Pale Masters is that, even though I like how mass heals don't damage them in groups when questing. Healing them in PvP SHOULD kill them (just like with undead mobs). A Cleric or Fav Soul with superior devotion V item should be able to one shot them in PvP with Heal cause thats the weakness of the type of character they've chosen to be (gotta take the strengths with the weaknesses). Its not really fair that they get all the advantages of being undead without any of the weaknesses. They get Damage reduction, heavy fort, disease immunity, 20% incoporiality, generate less hate with spells, featherfall, and +20 to move silently all depending only on what form they are in....

Radiant Servant - Where is the 3rd level for this prestige? Its been out for how long now and still nothing? I wouldn't normally complain about this (as I know many of the PrE's only have 2 levels) but the Cleric only has 1 available prestige class. How about Superior Ardor IX (Radiant Ardor) as a 1-3 minute personal buff that consumes a use of the turn undead ability for the 3rd level (or something along those lines) or maybe something that causes the turn undeads to regenerate faster maybe even something similiar to the monks meditation.....either make a 3rd level for this or open up the other PrE's for Clerics PLEASE.

I haven't tried all the PrE's yet so these would be my main beefs THUSFAR, although I am working on my completionist feat and have just TR'd for the first time. I am sure there are more PrE's with problems but these two are the most glaringly obvious to me.

Just my 2 cents

/roll save versus wall of text. You roll a 1. Save failure.

The pale master forms are for favor. I actually know more than a few monks that are still using the zombie form for flare and unique builds.

Try think outside the box rather than just complain because cookie cutters don't work for everything. The big bonus for casters comes at 18 when you get lich. Until then you are just buying time until you respec enhancements/feats anyway.

As for pvp this is mainly a pve so please don't ask the devs to nerf or boost something based on something that is less than 1% of the total game experience. If you want to one shot PM's adjust your approach. Try light spells because even in pve heals can only take undead to 1 hp it doesn't kill something outright.

Superior ardor ix as a replenishing clickie is OP and would obsolete the tod belts etc, so never going to happen. Look at it from this view sorcs and FvS just got their first bit of loving for pre's this update give them time and they will all have tier threes.

[Failedlegend]

Top of my list is pale masters, the first undead form Zombie is of little to no help. First off they lost spell points for the -2 to intelligence and they are further gimped with a 20% reduction in melee attack speed.....my question how is Zombie form helpful?







Lawful Neutral Dwarf Monk12/Wizard7/Fighter1 "Zombie/Ninja Spy"

Stats

Str 16 (Lvl ups here)
Dex 15
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 6

Level Order

Monk 1
Wizard 2-8
Monk 9-18
Fighter 19
Monk 20

Feats (In Order)


Regular

1 SF: Concentration
3 SF: UMD
6 Power Attack
9 Stunning Blow
12 ITWF
15 IC: Bludgeon
18 Mental Toughness


Wiz

2 Extend
6 SF:Necro


Monk

1 TWF
9 Toughness
13 Dodge

Fighter

19 GTWF

Skills

All Levels: Concentration, UMD
Monk Levels: Add Balance
Any Leftover points in Spot




Spells

1 Jump, Night Shield, Exp Retreat, Feather Fall, Detect Doors
2 Lesser Death Aura, False Life, Resist Energy, Blur
3 Haste, Displacement, Rage
4 Death Aura, Stone Skin

[skunk]

I am playing a 12 wiz 7 rogue, 1 monk staff build. I will also make a 13 rogue 6 wiz (pm) 1 monk. to compare. Zombie form is clunky, but its not horrid. Haste is huge on this build.


currently my zombie is level 12 (holding 13) I love going into invaders and soloing it. i love watching slay living just bounce off. I don't need to wear some silly robe for it, i can just wear my spell resist item or something else. Dwarf zombies unite.

the -2 int doesn't hurt, as i only need a 14 in in the first place, i can get that starting at a 10 int, with nothing but a +int item.

Its for fun, its for flavor, and its the closest thing to evil you will find in this game. :). Just because you can't think of a way to use something to have fun, doesn't mean they need to change it.

I can help you with a suggestion. Suggest Turbine don't touch zombie form. thats the best suggestion you could give them :).

[Illiain]

And I might be wrong on that - but is (mass) heal even effected by ardor/devotion/potency? At least I thought it isn't.



Yes, Mass Heal would be effected by Devotion/Ardor/Potency, if you could find one that went to level 9. Most stop at 6, 7, or 8. There are one or two out there, but most are a base 10% bonus such as the Epic Chainmail Coif. Even the Epic Shining Crest of St Markus only goes to Imp Devo 8.

Heal is very much helped by ardor/devo/potency items, which is why a Radiant Servant can easily overheal someone with a single heal.

[TheDjinnFor]

Top of my list is pale masters, the first undead form Zombie is of little to no help. First off they lost spell points for the -2 to intelligence and they are further gimped with a 20% reduction in melee attack speed.....my question how is Zombie form helpful? Sure the self healing helps out if you are a soloist or constantly grouping with a healer that doesnt do their job, but 90% of the rest of the time.....its completely useless so please figure out a way that zombie form can actually be useful by ungimping it a little. (before some smart alec ask's, no I don't have any suggestions for this). My second thought about Pale Masters is that, even though I like how mass heals don't damage them in groups when questing. Healing them in PvP SHOULD kill them (just like with undead mobs). A Cleric or Fav Soul with superior devotion V item should be able to one shot them in PvP with Heal cause thats the weakness of the type of character they've chosen to be (gotta take the strengths with the weaknesses). Its not really fair that they get all the advantages of being undead without any of the weaknesses. They get Damage reduction, heavy fort, disease immunity, 20% incoporiality, generate less hate with spells, featherfall, and +20 to move silently all depending only on what form they are in....

I'm pretty sure the whole point of the PM forms is to be useful at level and then be respecced out once you get the next one. Just like the whole point of Arcane Bolt/Arcane Blast is to be used until you get real SLAs or reach cap.

[Bzerk206]

/roll save versus wall of text. You roll a 1. Save failure.

The pale master forms are for favor. I actually know more than a few monks that are still using the zombie form for flare and unique builds.

Try think outside the box rather than just complain because cookie cutters don't work for everything. The big bonus for casters comes at 18 when you get lich. Until then you are just buying time until you respec enhancements/feats anyway.

As for pvp this is mainly a pve so please don't ask the devs to nerf or boost something based on something that is less than 1% of the total game experience. If you want to one shot PM's adjust your approach. Try light spells because even in pve heals can only take undead to 1 hp it doesn't kill something outright.

Superior ardor ix as a replenishing clickie is OP and would obsolete the tod belts etc, so never going to happen. Look at it from this view sorcs and FvS just got their first bit of loving for pre's this update give them time and they will all have tier threes.

You can say whatever you'd like about what I posted....the fact is the fact, when a Cleric or Fav Soul spec'd for healing comes across an undead mob, the mob gets powned. My point is that it should be the same for Pale Masters in undead form in PvP, you've done nothing to addres this glaringly obvious point and while I do agree that PvP is a miniscule part of DDO it should be in line with the rest of its established story line. Your point about not changing DDO for PvP rolls a 1, save failure. That would take most minor of updates and would make the whole undead form a lot more believable putting it more accurately in line with DDO's established story line. As for the Ardor thing, that was an idea not a demand. I laugh at your whole post here, apparently you've never heard of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism which was what I was basically asking for.

[Bzerk206]

All in to a tier3 prestige for clerics.

But...

... superior ardor ix clicky? No thanks, there are plenty of superior ardor 8 clickies and i don't think turbine wants to invalidate the farming of them. That's what tod sets are actually giving now. And I might be wrong on that - but is (mass) heal even effected by ardor/devotion/potency? At least I thought it isn't.

... quicker turn regen? Sure, wouldn't dismiss it but actually the current regeneration rate is already quite high (I solely heal with turns in most epics and tod except for the tougher fights, and have problems in running out of turns).

I have no idea what a tier3 prestige for clerics should bring, but definitely not these or it will only disappoint.
Maybe a longer timed damaging aura like implosion would be nice with force or light damage, but not sure about that - the cries of being overpowered would be very loud after a few days in game.

Thanks for your reply here (finally constructive criticism) actually I was thinking superior ardor IX because it would boost the Clerics Mass Heal spell......although many would consider that overpowering them, but I disagree seeing as pure clerics make horrible melee DPS (BAB progression is too low in my humble opinion). Amping up their healing ability or amping up their ability to regen turn undeads seems to be the best solution to solve the Radiant Servant 3 issue although I would be open to hearing other peoples suggestions for this. I already TR'd my cleric and since I am going for Completionist feat I will not be repeating that class....unless the Dev's do something about the Clerics PrE

[ProdigalGuru]

You can say whatever you'd like about what I posted....the fact is the fact, when a Cleric or Fav Soul spec'd for healing comes across an undead mob, the mob gets pwned. My point is that it should be the same for Pale Masters in undead form in PvP, you've done nothing to address this glaringly obvious point and while I do agree that PvP is a minuscule part of DDO it should be in line with the rest of its established story line. Your point about not changing DDO for PvP rolls a 1, save failure. That would take most minor of updates and would make the whole undead form a lot more believable putting it more accurately in line with DDO's established story line. As for the Ardor thing, that was an idea not a demand. I laugh at your whole post here, apparently you've never heard of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism which was what I was basically asking for.

Stealth mode does not work in PvP, either, but will not likely be changed any time soon.


The majority really do not want Dev time spent on PvP, and I agree with this.

[Creeper]

please figure out a way that zombie form can actually be useful

It is always more fun if you figure it out on your own.

[hityawithastick]

You can say whatever you'd like about what I posted....

Yes, that would be the point of a forum.


(before some smart alec ask's, no I don't have any suggestions for this).

...that's not a smart aleck question so much as...a completely legitimate one.


You can say whatever you'd like about what I posted....the fact is the fact, when a Cleric or Fav Soul spec'd for healing comes across an undead mob, the mob gets powned. My point is that it should be the same for Pale Masters in undead form in PvP

It is. Actually roll a pale master, drop into form and then go ask a level 20 favored soul to hit you with searing light. Observe the 400+ damage.


Its not really fair that they get all the advantages of being undead without any of the weaknesses. They get Damage reduction, heavy fort, disease immunity, 20% incoporiality, generate less hate with spells, featherfall, and +20 to move silently all depending only on what form they are in....


We get self healing, heavy fort, and much of the same immunities as warforged. However, like warforged we cannot be healed by healing spells...at all. Not even a little. Essentially, dropping into form gives us a bonus at the cost of making us totally self-reliant. Not to mention the +50% light damage we take, and our vulnerability to halt undead, chill touch undead fear effects, turn undead, and augmented firewall damage. More to the point, we don't have all that stuff at the same time. Each has its drawbacks--wraithform is squishier, but stealthier. Vamp form can be completely annihilated by a light spell in a hard or elite quest, but has a powerful boost to enchantment DCs and hate generation reduction. Zombie form is a great tool for a soloing lowbie who can't afford a Robe of invulnerability. And Lich form, the most commonly used one, has (like all the rest) the drawbacks of being nearly undead.

AND FINALLY.
Until pale masters no longer drown on the way to Let Sleeping Dust Lie, I will not entertain any "you get all the benefits of being undead, you should take the penalties" statements.

*this post was manufactured on equipment that also processes snarky comments. This post may contain trace elements of snark.

[Aeolwind]

I'd worry about a IX clicky when a non-wf (and most wf) isn't completely healed by a Mass Heal on a regular basis. All but the most fat and overt toughness taking, Stamina jockies don't get healed by it.

Ideas for Tier 3:
-Positive energy shield: Like fire shield, cept positive damage & blinds, also removes 1 neg levels & 1-2 stat damage every 8 seconds to those nearby. Counts as SLA and cannot be dispelled.
-Conduit: Allow you to channel your aura and bursts through someone else.
-Capless Turn Undead: Remove the HD cap & dice from Turn Undead and you just get to blast away on qty of turned/destroyed dice. Basically, this would just improve PE Burst, since it has no HD cap it is far better to use on higher level undead in greater numbers. I can't really think of any undead past Litany though, and getting it at 18 would make that pretty pointless. Cove maybe, Mabar for sure.
-Positive Energy Strike: Targettable, ranged Positive energy AE. Heals/cures allies, damages/blinds foes.

[doubledge]

zombie forme is awesome cause you cna do this :
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt90/mikelhanson0505/gif.gif

[hityawithastick]

zombie forme is awesome cause you cna do this :
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt90/mikelhanson0505/gif.gif

I totally should have just said that. Way easier on the eyes than my wall of text. :D

[JakLee7]

http://s.sfwgifs.com/img/2377/zombie-dance.gif
I actually prefer this


and remember to believe in your dreams (of pre's at level 3 for all!)

[kcru]

Radiant servant III... on critical positive energy, the target gains +30% attack and run speed for 4 seconds.


Could be handy for the aura ticks if they also beefed up their crit rate.

[Bzerk206]

Yes, that would be the point of a forum.



...that's not a smart aleck question so much as...a completely legitimate one.



It is. Actually roll a pale master, drop into form and then go ask a level 20 favored soul to hit you with searing light. Observe the 400+ damage.



We get self healing, heavy fort, and much of the same immunities as warforged. However, like warforged we cannot be healed by healing spells...at all. Not even a little. Essentially, dropping into form gives us a bonus at the cost of making us totally self-reliant. Not to mention the +50% light damage we take, and our vulnerability to halt undead, chill touch undead fear effects, turn undead, and augmented firewall damage. More to the point, we don't have all that stuff at the same time. Each has its drawbacks--wraithform is squishier, but stealthier. Vamp form can be completely annihilated by a light spell in a hard or elite quest, but has a powerful boost to enchantment DCs and hate generation reduction. Zombie form is a great tool for a soloing lowbie who can't afford a Robe of invulnerability. And Lich form, the most commonly used one, has (like all the rest) the drawbacks of being nearly undead.

AND FINALLY.
Until pale masters no longer drown on the way to Let Sleeping Dust Lie, I will not entertain any "you get all the benefits of being undead, you should take the penalties" statements.

*this post was manufactured on equipment that also processes snarky comments. This post may contain trace elements of snark.

ROFLMAO have I insulted a Pale Master here? Did you miss my line about it only being useful for soloists or somebody who constantly groups with a healer that doesnt heal? Zombie form is gimped for the pure wizzies, the rest of your post I thank you for your constructive criticizm and will take your info under advisement.

[Bzerk206]

I'd worry about a IX clicky when a non-wf (and most wf) isn't completely healed by a Mass Heal on a regular basis. All but the most fat and overt toughness taking, Stamina jockies don't get healed by it.

Ideas for Tier 3:
-Positive energy shield: Like fire shield, cept positive damage & blinds, also removes 1 neg levels & 1-2 stat damage every 8 seconds to those nearby. Counts as SLA and cannot be dispelled.
-Conduit: Allow you to channel your aura and bursts through someone else.
-Capless Turn Undead: Remove the HD cap & dice from Turn Undead and you just get to blast away on qty of turned/destroyed dice. Basically, this would just improve PE Burst, since it has no HD cap it is far better to use on higher level undead in greater numbers. I can't really think of any undead past Litany though, and getting it at 18 would make that pretty pointless. Cove maybe, Mabar for sure.
-Positive Energy Strike: Targettable, ranged Positive energy AE. Heals/cures allies, damages/blinds foes.

I like the sound of any of those!

[Bzerk206]

I'm pretty sure the whole point of the PM forms is to be useful at level and then be respecced out once you get the next one. Just like the whole point of Arcane Bolt/Arcane Blast is to be used until you get real SLAs or reach cap.

Yeah I know Zombie is the lowest form and that PM's just like the rest get better at higher levels. My point is this a Clerics first level of PrE gives them PEB - Useful, first level of Tempest gets "Shield of whirling steel" - Useful I could go through everybody else but to save time I will just end with....while Zombie form doesn't seem that useful *except to the soloist* and for a game thats built on the principle of teamwork and grouping it just doesn't seem to fit. Zombies lose intelligence (thus spellpoints) and have 20% slower melee attack speed. IS DR/5, +2 strength (which doesnt help cause lvl's 6-12 its hard to hit anything with 20% slower melee) and +2 to Con worth it? I don't think so.....but I guess its a matter of opinion. If you mix it with monk its useful but to the pure wiz teamplayer its just not that helpful.

[Creeper]

Zombies lose intelligence (thus spellpoints) and have 20% slower melee attack speed. IS DR/5, +2 strength (which doesnt help cause lvl's 6-12 its hard to hit anything with 20% slower melee) and +2 to Con worth it? I don't think so.....but I guess its a matter of opinion.

Do you know how many spellpoints -2 int costs you at level 6?

(15)

[Bzerk206]

Do you know how many spellpoints -2 int costs you at level 6?

(15)

That would depend on the build of the wizard and the amount of Intel they have, let me ask you this? When grouping with a PM don't you notice that the PM's run out of SP faster then anybody else? They have to use their SP both for attacking and for replenishing their health, while I admit 15 isn't that much, Wizards spell DC come out of their Intelligence also so its not just the amount of SP its swallowing its also making their spells less effective.

[Esserbe]

Honestly, if you think spellpoints is the biggest reason -2 INT isn't optimal then you're not really ready to critique the form. It's fine for what it is.

Well there you go, snuck in a post about the DC while I was typing! Grumble...

Most pale masters I've run with don't ever run out of SP since they're constantly self-healed by the aura.

[Cryohazard]

My second thought about Pale Masters is that, even though I like how mass heals don't damage them in groups when questing. Healing them in PvP SHOULD kill them (just like with undead mobs). A Cleric or Fav Soul with superior devotion V item should be able to one shot them in PvP with Heal cause thats the weakness of the type of character they've chosen to be (gotta take the strengths with the weaknesses).

Uh, you haven't played a Palemaster have you?

Palemasters do have a weakness called "Searing Light"...which Dungeon Shamans and Clerics/FvS PVPers both carry. And don't worry, Light spells insta-kill my PMs in PVP, which is why (on the rare occasions that I do PVP) I usually leave the ring if a cleric or FvS steps in the ring. IMO, Light does enough damage in PVP, no reason to give divine PVPers yet another level of dominance. PvP is unbalanced enough.

[Bzerk206]

Honestly, if you think spellpoints is the biggest reason -2 INT isn't optimal then you're not really ready to critique the form. It's fine for what it is.

Well there you go, snuck in a post about the DC while I was typing! Grumble...

Most pale masters I've run with don't ever run out of SP since they're constantly self-healed by the aura.

Spell DC too see post above you

[Havok.cry]

Personaly I think radiant servant t3 should give a sunburst clickie fueled by turn undead. Zombie should not change. PMs used to have to wait to lvl12 to be undead, now they don't... at lvl 6 the undead traits are uber by themselves and applying penalties is perfectly fine for getting them at such a liw level.

[hityawithastick]

ROFLMAO have I insulted a Pale Master here? Did you miss my line about it only being useful for soloists or somebody who constantly groups with a healer that doesnt heal? Zombie form is gimped for the pure wizzies, the rest of your post I thank you for your constructive criticizm and will take your info under advisement.

Doesn't it make the cleric's job 1/6 easier if one of his party members has deathblock/disease immunity/poison immunity/hold person immunity/paralysis immunity/neg energy immunity AND can self-heal? Especially in a Hard waterworks run where he has enough trouble trying to keep the melees alive?

Also...the -2 Int spell point loss would reduce your maximum SP. If you were at full SP and took -2 Int, you'd lose some SP, yes. But if you were at less than full SP...like, say, if you paid 15-40 sp for lesser death aura and zombie form...then your current spell point total would be unchanged. Then, when you shrine, your form drops, your Int goes back up, and you're at full original spell point total. So you have a net loss of zero, yes, ZERO spell points.

As for the SP comment...I played a PM straight up to 20, and the only time I run out of SP is (a) about 30 seconds before the party wipes, or (b) at the very end of the boss fight. Partying with good PMs, I've noticed that I notice absolutely nothing, except the fact that they kill things. They don't need me to heal them, they don't want me to buff them, they don't run out of SP. They're just there, doing their own thing, working on the quest.

[Creeper]

That would depend on the build of the wizard and the amount of Intel they have

The build or amount of Int you have would not matter. -2 Int will still equal -15 sp at level 6 and -21 at level 12. No matter how you slice it -2 is still only -2 and SP values based on ability scores, per level, are static.



let me ask you this? When grouping with a PM don't you notice that the PM's run out of SP faster then anybody else? They have to use their SP both for attacking and for replenishing their health

No. I haven't noticed this. I have noticed that PMs who use their SLAs tend to never run out of SP as their SLAs use HPS and not SPs, and since a good PM rarely needs more healing than their aura affords they have both limitless SP and HP at cap, even soloing, with the proper gear.

Good casters only run out of SP at the end of a quest or at a shrine.

[KillEveryone]

There really are not many spells at that level that require a real DC. PK is about it and you don't get it for a few more levels. Everything else will most likely land and do damage.

Zombie form is for pale masters to be able to heal themselves at that level. One of the devs said that was one of the reasons for it when they were talking about it(can't remember who but I do remember reading about it.)

You don't run out of SP that quick either. The aura ticks long enough with extend. Even still, at that level, most pure DC wizards are still using masters touch as swinging a great axe/sword/falchion whichever they have and supplement that melee with the occasional fireball. The -2 to INT doesn't take away enough SP to make it a issue. You use your PrE SLA when you are beating on stuff for the occasional necrotic touch, cast a MM, beat on critter more.

DR at that level is also very helpful. Less damage means less SP required for healing.

I'm not really sure what you've actually been playing. I've not had any problems with my self healers running out of Sp at that level.

And what is this all about healers not doing their job? If a player wishes to play a healbot, fine, but do not ever expect a divine to keep your gimpy butt alive just because you think it is their job. A player with a divine is a player and can play however they want. Until you pay for any of their sub/Turbine points, don't expect them to play your way.

[redoubt]

I'd worry about a IX clicky when a non-wf (and most wf) isn't completely healed by a Mass Heal on a regular basis. All but the most fat and overt toughness taking, Stamina jockies don't get healed by it.

Ideas for Tier 3:
-Positive energy shield: Like fire shield, cept positive damage & blinds, also removes 1 neg levels & 1-2 stat damage every 8 seconds to those nearby. Counts as SLA and cannot be dispelled.
-Conduit: Allow you to channel your aura and bursts through someone else.
-Capless Turn Undead: Remove the HD cap & dice from Turn Undead and you just get to blast away on qty of turned/destroyed dice. Basically, this would just improve PE Burst, since it has no HD cap it is far better to use on higher level undead in greater numbers. I can't really think of any undead past Litany though, and getting it at 18 would make that pretty pointless. Cove maybe, Mabar for sure.
-Positive Energy Strike: Targettable, ranged Positive energy AE. Heals/cures allies, damages/blinds foes.

I don't quite follow the first one. sry.

I like the conduit idea, like useing a mass cure on someone else, but with the burst heal. Seems like a natural progression.

I like the idea of capless turn undead. Need some number crunchers to tell us if this will be too much though. I would really like to see some sort of bonus to turn undead. Right now its better to aura burst or heal mass than turn undead, so some boosts would be nice.
--- removing or raising the HD cap is one way
--- increasing cleric level could be another. I.e. +2 cleric levels at each PRE level and +2 on the capstone, for +8 total. Sure you would get some super high cleric levels possible, but the number reductions in the turn calculations would make this not nearly as powerful as it sounds. AND its niche build only AND there are no high end undead at this time anyway.

[Asmodeus451]

3 reasons Zombie Form is fine just the way it is:

Self-Healing at low level.

Damage Reduction

and the number one reason Zombie form is incredibly useful at-level is..............

HEAVY FORT AT LEVEL 6

just in case you forgot OP, NO OTHER CLASS IS ABLE TO ACHIEVE THIS. all others must wiat till level 9 at least, and then only if they can get a level 12 to help you farm Adamantine Ore in Relic.

i also wish to note for the record that i DO NOT play a wizard, my 3 toons are a Pally, a Sorc, and a Rogue

i just want ppl to stop trying to get Turbine to fix wat isn't broken, and start fixing what is.

[hityawithastick]

3 reasons Zombie Form is fine just the way it is:

Self-Healing at low level.

Damage Reduction

and the number one reason Zombie form is incredibly useful at-level is..............

HEAVY FORT AT LEVEL 6

just in case you forgot OP, NO OTHER CLASS IS ABLE TO ACHIEVE THIS. all others must wiat till level 9 at least, and then only if they can get a level 12 to help you farm Adamantine Ore in Relic.

i also wish to note for the record that i DO NOT play a wizard, my 3 toons are a Pally, a Sorc, and a Rogue

i just want ppl to stop trying to get Turbine to fix wat isn't broken, and start fixing what is.

/applause

[KillEveryone]

HEAVY FORT AT LEVEL 6

I forgot about this one. I take it for granted higher up I don't really think about this. I'm always trying to slot the best fort item I have.

+1.

[Kabaon]

As a heavy advocate for Pale Masters, I can safely say that zombie form isn't worthless in it's current incarnation. There are many reasons for this. The first reason I would state that zombie form is useful for what it is is simply self healing.

Secondly, who cares about the attack speed even for a pure wiz, we cast spells anyway, and given that PM I gives us an SL-A that requires a bit of self-healing to use forever, this isn't a big issue, though it's short range is meh, it's still better than nothing, when used in conjunction with the cheaper spells and the better recharge rates on eternal wands. And for one level till the better aoe spells.

-2 int is barely noticable at level 6 anyway, as the good necro dc spells don't even really pop up to a few spell levels later (as Lesser Death Aura/Death Aura don't really matter save wise if you use it for self healing purposes) such as FoD, Circle of Death, Wail of The Banshee, and even Necrotic Ray and Symbol of Death. Basically your dc's at low levels should be somewhat of a priority, but not overly required.

The easy to obtain havy fort from Zombie form is a nice boost as people have said that most have to wait till 9 (earlier for WF arcanes as a mod fort fills the gap), this is a boon for squishy casters and actually helps the healers out. Any pale master worth grouping with won't rely on a healer at any level past 6.

And your comment about how pale masters run out of spell points faster than any other class simply isn't true, but this is more about the player and not the prestege. Self healing on a pale master is actually costs less sp then say a wf using repair's/reconstructs. I'd rather pay the 50 sp for an aura that ticks between 30-80 spell points every couple seconds for 3 minutes than 1 reconstruct for roughly the same cost. At higher levels it's much easier to conserve sp even further as there are multiple ways to get sp back. I personally rarely run out of sp before reaching a shrine (most of the time with my SP total of 2310) and even then I usually don't shrine right away (even in groups) as I have a torc/concord oppo and a Mysterious Bauble for SP. Obviously not everyone has these, but even without those worse case scenario you can rely on your almost infinate sl-a's to get you to your next shrine.

And I doubt you've been in the dueling pit recently as a full blown Pale Master, especially with divines in with you. In case you missed the change about light damage, we take double damage from all light spells. All it takes is a Divine Punishment or even 1 or 2 searing lights from a smiting specced fvs or cleric and a pale master crumples to dust. I've tested this and in the case for pale masters we're damned if we do (go undead for the light weakness) and damned if we don't (becuase we can't self heal, unless your a wf pale master). A second weakness just isn't a good way to balance things when many other classes have their own weaknesses (I would say except divines who get the same benefits with resists/procs and the added bonus of immunity to death effects)

Anyway, as many have stated the Zombie form is for the most part a disposable form once you hit 12 with vampire and wraith, and 18 gives us the lich form.

Edit: As for Pale Master being strictly for the solist crowd, while that is partially true, I know I prefer to run with others for a couple of reasons. A) I want more of a challenge, becuase of dungeon scaling solo'ing a quest makes them easier than a 6 man group and B) There are times I want to run a quest from friends or random puggers becuase soloing gets boring for me. This again isn't the case for all pale masters, but I know a few who prefer to party at least some of the time.

I do agree however that Cleric's should get a Rad Servant III, but it's not a big deal as there are other classes that have had pre's longer than the cleric and deserve their PrE tier III's first.

[Bzerk206]

The build or amount of Int you have would not matter. -2 Int will still equal -15 sp at level 6 and -21 at level 12. No matter how you slice it -2 is still only -2 and SP values based on ability scores, per level, are static.



No. I haven't noticed this. I have noticed that PMs who use their SLAs tend to never run out of SP as their SLAs use HPS and not SPs, and since a good PM rarely needs more healing than their aura affords they have both limitless SP and HP at cap, even soloing, with the proper gear.

Good casters only run out of SP at the end of a quest or at a shrine.

You said it right their PAL, GOOD casters. Apparently I am the only one that keeps running into people that don't know how to build. Since I am the only one to have noticed this or pointed it out. I have grouped with hundreds of players in DDO since I started 2 years ago and I find that only about 1 in 3 actually have the basic build concepts down and understand how to build their character in a way thats both useful and helpful to the party

[Kabaon]

You said it right their PAL, GOOD casters. Apparently I am the only one that keeps running into people that don't know how to build. Since I am the only one to have noticed this or pointed it out. I have grouped with hundreds of players in DDO since I started 2 years ago and I find that only about 1 in 3 actually have the basic build concepts down and understand how to build their character in a way thats both useful and helpful to the party

If you haven't noticed there are a lot of new players comming in since the game went F2P (I myself started just after it went F2P). As with any game, it takes time to learn and adjust, especially if you just stopped playing or took a break from another game/mmo. It's even worse if you have NO knowledge of D&D in any way. Seeing as lower levels are where you start to learn the game, experiement with classes, and understanding builds, you should expect that AT LEAST 2 in 3 players won't fully understand but I'd be willing to bump the numbers up or down based on the ratio of new players vs total players per server. Hell it took me 20 levels to even realize that 227 hp on a drow wizzy sucks, and luckily epics and tr's were JUST rolled out and allowed me to fix my mistakes.

[Bzerk206]

There really are not many spells at that level that require a real DC. PK is about it and you don't get it for a few more levels. Everything else will most likely land and do damage.

Zombie form is for pale masters to be able to heal themselves at that level. One of the devs said that was one of the reasons for it when they were talking about it(can't remember who but I do remember reading about it.)

You don't run out of SP that quick either. The aura ticks long enough with extend. Even still, at that level, most pure DC wizards are still using masters touch as swinging a great axe/sword/falchion whichever they have and supplement that melee with the occasional fireball. The -2 to INT doesn't take away enough SP to make it a issue. You use your PrE SLA when you are beating on stuff for the occasional necrotic touch, cast a MM, beat on critter more.

DR at that level is also very helpful. Less damage means less SP required for healing.

I'm not really sure what you've actually been playing. I've not had any problems with my self healers running out of Sp at that level.

And what is this all about healers not doing their job? If a player wishes to play a healbot, fine, but do not ever expect a divine to keep your gimpy butt alive just because you think it is their job. A player with a divine is a player and can play however they want. Until you pay for any of their sub/Turbine points, don't expect them to play your way.

See my previous response about characters building, as for your last line, I am a TR'd (former cleric) Fighter with a starting con of 16 I am neither squishy nor gimpy. I'll thank you to group with me before you make judgements about my ability to build. As for Healers as a former Cleric I do have PLEANTY of experience being one and understanding a healers roll in the group, a healer that doesn't heal is USLESS and I always write there names down and refuse to group with them in the future. Can they build anything they want sure, thats the great thing about this game you can be something that fits your personality, and everybody PICKS their jobs when they pick their classes. Clerics and Fav Souls that can't/won't heal are useless to the group, Rogues that can't disable traps are equally useless. IF I want DPS I will pick up one of the traditional DPS classes with a high BAB progression, and although I know some Assassins are as good a DPS as any other, MOST are not. I don't ask for Rogues/Fav souls/Clerics to join my group if I need DPS THATS WHAT DPS CLASSES ARE FOR!!! Thanks for your useless contribution to this post.

[Kabaon]

See my previous response about characters building, as for your last line, I am a TR'd (former cleric) Fighter with a starting con of 16 I am neither squishy nor gimpy. I'll thank you to group with me before you make judgements about my ability to build. As for Healers as a former Cleric I do have PLEANTY of experience being one and understanding a healers roll in the group, a healer that doesn't heal is USLESS and I always write there names down and refuse to group with them in the future. Can they build anything they want sure, thats the great thing about this game you can be something that fits your personality, and everybody PICKS their jobs when they pick their classes. Clerics and Fav Souls that can't/won't heal are useless to the group, Rogues that can't disable traps are equally useless. IF I want DPS I will pick up one of the traditional DPS classes with a high BAB progression, and although I know some Assassins are as good a DPS as any other, MOST are not. I don't ask for Rogues/Fav souls/Clerics to join my group if I need DPS THATS WHAT DPS CLASSES ARE FOR!!! Thanks for your useless contribution to this post.

I'd say that some of this post is more of a narrow-minded veiw. While clerics and fvs are expected to heal, not all will. I'm not sure if you've actually run with a dps based Cleric or FvS, but most of the time, they only back-up heal, or only heal using masses becuase that isn't their main goal. Most of the time these players only keep a slight look on everybody's hp bars, especially if you have a dedicated healer in quests/raids.

BaB isn't everything. Yes it helps, but by level 20 with +5 swords or huge weapons depending on the class, this is hardly an issue. Rogues are just as much dps as any other class, they just benefit from not being the center of attention, regardless of what PrE they take, Assassins just have a slightly better edge over non assassin rogues. Tempest Rangers are actually one of the better dps classes if built right to dish out damage and can take it. I say rangers becuase of the many free TWF/Bow feats they get over many other classes that might nolt have space for them.

[Bzerk206]

As a heavy advocate for Pale Masters, I can safely say that zombie form isn't worthless in it's current incarnation. There are many reasons for this. The first reason I would state that zombie form is useful for what it is is simply self healing.

Secondly, who cares about the attack speed even for a pure wiz, we cast spells anyway, and given that PM I gives us an SL-A that requires a bit of self-healing to use forever, this isn't a big issue, though it's short range is meh, it's still better than nothing, when used in conjunction with the cheaper spells and the better recharge rates on eternal wands. And for one level till the better aoe spells.

-2 int is barely noticable at level 6 anyway, as the good necro dc spells don't even really pop up to a few spell levels later (as Lesser Death Aura/Death Aura don't really matter save wise if you use it for self healing purposes) such as FoD, Circle of Death, Wail of The Banshee, and even Necrotic Ray and Symbol of Death. Basically your dc's at low levels should be somewhat of a priority, but not overly required.

The easy to obtain havy fort from Zombie form is a nice boost as people have said that most have to wait till 9 (earlier for WF arcanes as a mod fort fills the gap), this is a boon for squishy casters and actually helps the healers out. Any pale master worth grouping with won't rely on a healer at any level past 6.

And your comment about how pale masters run out of spell points faster than any other class simply isn't true, but this is more about the player and not the prestege. Self healing on a pale master is actually costs less sp then say a wf using repair's/reconstructs. I'd rather pay the 50 sp for an aura that ticks between 30-80 spell points every couple seconds for 3 minutes than 1 reconstruct for roughly the same cost. At higher levels it's much easier to conserve sp even further as there are multiple ways to get sp back. I personally rarely run out of sp before reaching a shrine (most of the time with my SP total of 2310) and even then I usually don't shrine right away (even in groups) as I have a torc/concord oppo and a Mysterious Bauble for SP. Obviously not everyone has these, but even without those worse case scenario you can rely on your almost infinate sl-a's to get you to your next shrine.

And I doubt you've been in the dueling pit recently as a full blown Pale Master, especially with divines in with you. In case you missed the change about light damage, we take double damage from all light spells. All it takes is a Divine Punishment or even 1 or 2 searing lights from a smiting specced fvs or cleric and a pale master crumples to dust. I've tested this and in the case for pale masters we're damned if we do (go undead for the light weakness) and damned if we don't (becuase we can't self heal, unless your a wf pale master). A second weakness just isn't a good way to balance things when many other classes have their own weaknesses (I would say except divines who get the same benefits with resists/procs and the added bonus of immunity to death effects)

Anyway, as many have stated the Zombie form is for the most part a disposable form once you hit 12 with vampire and wraith, and 18 gives us the lich form.

Edit: As for Pale Master being strictly for the solist crowd, while that is partially true, I know I prefer to run with others for a couple of reasons. A) I want more of a challenge, becuase of dungeon scaling solo'ing a quest makes them easier than a 6 man group and B) There are times I want to run a quest from friends or random puggers becuase soloing gets boring for me. This again isn't the case for all pale masters, but I know a few who prefer to party at least some of the time.

I do agree however that Cleric's should get a Rad Servant III, but it's not a big deal as there are other classes that have had pre's longer than the cleric and deserve their PrE tier III's first.

Thanks for your contribution here, I'll take this under advisement. As for your last line I think due to the fact that Rad Servant is the only available PrE for Clerics that it should be at the top of the list even if other PrE's have been around longer.....

[pjw]

...
Radiant Servant - Where is the 3rd level for this prestige? ...

For a 3rd Tier PrE, a clicky seems pretty lame.

I'd be looking for something more offensive to be honest; or failing that, something highly defensive ('Boon of Life' - gain HP (or even SP) whenever hit, a little like like the 'Boon of Undeath'?).

We either need an offensive Clr PrE series, or (my preference) add something offensive or defensive to the RS line. AoE 'Inflict' aura? No idea...but something.

[licho]

Lets face it: ZOmbie form is no trade.
Attack speed - not a bit gain or loose but nothing good
-2 Int - less sp, worse DC no point in debuffing yourself
DR - Invulneribility does it better, if you do not have luck with loot/AH, the shard is low level (i personally like Fearsom + invulnernability crafted robe)

This all is a reason i go with 6-11 AM, and 12+ PM. AM I is a lot more SP, and if one like some SLA (like hypno) the bolt is not a big deal, but fun to have to finish mobs.

But of course, if somebody is happy with PM I, the good for him.

[Bzerk206]

I'd say that some of this post is more of a narrow-minded veiw. While clerics and fvs are expected to heal, not all will. I'm not sure if you've actually run with a dps based Cleric or FvS, but most of the time, they only back-up heal, or only heal using masses becuase that isn't their main goal. Most of the time these players only keep a slight look on everybody's hp bars, especially if you have a dedicated healer in quests/raids.

BaB isn't everything. Yes it helps, but by level 20 with +5 swords or huge weapons depending on the class, this is hardly an issue. Rogues are just as much dps as any other class, they just benefit from not being the center of attention, regardless of what PrE they take, Assassins just have a slightly better edge over non assassin rogues. Tempest Rangers are actually one of the better dps classes if built right to dish out damage and can take it. I say rangers becuase of the many free TWF/Bow feats they get over many other classes that might nolt have space for them.

Oh I've run with Battle Clerics and the famous WF fav souls before (generally self healers). I don't like having them in my group, more often then not they don't bother mentioning they are spec'd for melee. Those that at least warn me are ok, but if I have a choice I will pick a traditional DPS class I don't like grouping with players spec'd for soloing.

[Bzerk206]

Lets face it: ZOmbie form is no trade.
Attack speed - not a bit gain or loose but nothing good
-2 Int - less sp, worse DC no point in debuffing yourself
DR - Invulneribility does it better, if you do not have luck with loot/AH, the shard is low level (i personally like Fearsom + invulnernability crafted robe)

This all is a reason i go with 6-11 AM, and 12+ PM. AM I is a lot more SP, and if one like some SLA (like hypno) the bolt is not a big deal, but fun to have to finish mobs.

But of course, if somebody is happy with PM I, the good for him.

Great Idea, I might steal this when I hit Wiz class (as I am going for completionist feat) thank you for your input

[Aashrym]

Doesn't it make the cleric's job 1/6 easier if one of his party members has deathblock/disease immunity/poison immunity/hold person immunity/paralysis immunity/neg energy immunity AND can self-heal? Especially in a Hard waterworks run where he has enough trouble trying to keep the melees alive?

You wait until level 6 for hard waterworks? ;-)

[Kabaon]

Oh I've run with Battle Clerics and the famous WF fav souls before (generally self healers). I don't like having them in my group, more often then not they don't bother mentioning they are spec'd for melee. Those that at least warn me are ok, but if I have a choice I will pick a traditional DPS class I don't like grouping with players spec'd for soloing.

I've started noticing the signs that a cleric is a battle cleric or a battle fvs is a battle fvs. The basic signs of a battle cleric is that it isn't a full cleric, it has a splash of something, be it two levels of rogue/monk or a couple levels of fighter or barb. Basically in this case it should be implied that they are indeed a dps. The same can be said for fvs (including wf) but I can gaurentee you at least WF fvs and maybe all divine casters can keep up with a couple self buffs. My best guess as to why they never informed you is becuase they feel that it's self evedent and requires no explanation, but I can't say for sure, it's speculation.

Divine Favor and later Divine Power close the gap enough to make a difference, especially since Divine Power makes your BaB equal to a fighter of equal level for a total of I think 4 mins (if it's extended, 2 if not, but I can't verify this as my WF FvS isn't capped).

I'm not knocking your choices, so I hope you don't take it that way, and we play on different servers so there will be deviations from player skill levels. But just becuase someone is specced for solo'ing doesn't actually mean thart when they run with a group that they aren't a team player. But my overall experiance is fairly positive with battle clerics/fvs so I tend to not judge them harshly and include them as a dps class (I find self sufficent players are actually some of the best to party with)

[Bzerk206]

Uh, you haven't played a Palemaster have you?

Palemasters do have a weakness called "Searing Light"...which Dungeon Shamans and Clerics/FvS PVPers both carry. And don't worry, Light spells insta-kill my PMs in PVP, which is why (on the rare occasions that I do PVP) I usually leave the ring if a cleric or FvS steps in the ring. IMO, Light does enough damage in PVP, no reason to give divine PVPers yet another level of dominance. PvP is unbalanced enough.

Apparently you've never heard of Globe of Invulnerability! The lesser globe blocks all level 3 or lower spells, the other globe lvl 4. I know that both can be bought as scrolls, but that renders Searing light USELESS allowing PM's to battle with Fav souls and Clerics just fine (I've personally witnessed this). There is still the Divine Punishment spell lvl 5 but that makes it so there is only a single spell that can be used against PM's to do serious damage.

[Kabaon]

Lets face it: ZOmbie form is no trade.
Attack speed - not a bit gain or loose but nothing good
-2 Int - less sp, worse DC no point in debuffing yourself
DR - Invulneribility does it better, if you do not have luck with loot/AH, the shard is low level (i personally like Fearsom + invulnernability crafted robe)

This all is a reason i go with 6-11 AM, and 12+ PM. AM I is a lot more SP, and if one like some SLA (like hypno) the bolt is not a big deal, but fun to have to finish mobs.

But of course, if somebody is happy with PM I, the good for him.

Basically the way I see it Licho, Zombie form has it's merits. Yeah you lose sp, attack speed and the DR is bettwr from other sources, but giving a squishy wizard an option for self healing, earlier heavy fort, dr that doesn't require an item, and many many immunities (including death effect immunites) generally outwieghs the cons of losing 15 sp at 6, and a slower attack speed (which is boosted from haste anyway to make it bearable)

But as you said, if someone likes Pale Master for what it is, good for them. I just personaly see more benefits than cons with zombie form.

[redoubt]

Oh I've run with Battle Clerics and the famous WF fav souls before (generally self healers). I don't like having them in my group, more often then not they don't bother mentioning they are spec'd for melee. Those that at least warn me are ok, but if I have a choice I will pick a traditional DPS class I don't like grouping with players spec'd for soloing.

I totally don't get this mindset. One, melee FvS and cleric are not automatically "solo spec'd" and two, people who can build and play good solo builds are awesome in groups. Most of my best runs are groups of people who know how to take care of themselves.

Would you turn down a WF Wizard because he can self heal?

Finally, many of the "melee spec" have a splash that is a give away... i.e. monk, fighter, pali, barb. If you see those, they might be a "melee spec". Also, many have comments in their bios about thier builds. Do you look there? (Don't take this as a critique so much as some friendly advice.)

[Kabaon]

Apparently you've never heard of Globe of Invulnerability! The lesser globe blocks all level 3 or lower spells, the other globe lvl 4. I know that both can be bought as scrolls, but that renders Searing light USELESS allowing PM's to battle with Fav souls and Clerics just fine (I've personally witnessed this). There is still the Divine Punishment spell lvl 5 but that makes it so there is only a single spell that can be used against PM's to do serious damage.

Overall I'd say that's a good idea, I never thought about it, but as to divine punishment being the only spell to do serious damage to a pm is false. Basically all a divine has to cast to stop a pale master is get a good cometfall in (and hope the wizard doesn't have a good reflex save) and then divine punishment. Seeing as the globe doesn't move with you, the cometfall is the best opening move a divine could use at the first of combat given that they wizard doesn't have a spell absorbtion ioun stone, but in that case, divine punishment, and then cometfall and then a double stacked divine punishment will defeat a simple globe of invunribility. But that's just a scenario I came up with.

[Bzerk206]

I totally don't get this mindset. One, melee FvS and cleric are not automatically "solo spec'd" and two, people who can build and play good solo builds are awesome in groups. Most of my best runs are groups of people who know how to take care of themselves.

Would you turn down a WF Wizard because he can self heal?

Finally, many of the "melee spec" have a splash that is a give away... i.e. monk, fighter, pali, barb. If you see those, they might be a "melee spec". Also, many have comments in their bios about thier builds. Do you look there? (Don't take this as a critique so much as some friendly advice.)

ROFL are you seriously asking me this? IF I didn't play with anybody that can self heal how would I play with Clerics or Fav Souls which I need to keep me alive.

Yes MANY of the melee spec have a splash, not ALL of them. I've grouped with a WF Fav Soul, that straight out told me he only self heals because he is concentrating on his melee. I've grouped with PURE Clerics that inform me (after the fact) that they havent spent much points on Wisdom in favor of a higher strength, Dex, and Con. I always form my own groups rather then join other peoples (unless a friend or a guildie asks me to). Do you know how messed up it is to ask for a healer *specifically in the post* and a pure cleric requests to join, then when you get started you notice everybodys life dropping and the Cleric is so busy trying to melee that party members start dying? This is not something thats happened once or twice, this happens to me at least twice a week. Its the primary reason I made a cleric because.......if you want a job done right.....

[Aashrym]

I thought I might just point out that Zombie form provides something that didn't really exist before it came out: a reason to take pale master I. Those are cheap benefits at level.

[Bzerk206]

Overall I'd say that's a good idea, I never thought about it, but as to divine punishment being the only spell to do serious damage to a pm is false. Basically all a divine has to cast to stop a pale master is get a good cometfall in (and hope the wizard doesn't have a good reflex save) and then divine punishment. Seeing as the globe doesn't move with you, the cometfall is the best opening move a divine could use at the first of combat given that they wizard doesn't have a spell absorbtion ioun stone, but in that case, divine punishment, and then cometfall and then a double stacked divine punishment will defeat a simple globe of invunribility. But that's just a scenario I came up with.

I agree its not flawless, but it will buy a PM time especially if their opponant is unfamiliar with the Globe (he might waste some SP before he figures it out) but the whole time the PM should be using his offensive magic especially while his opponant is scratching his head trying to figure out why his spell isn't doing damage like its supposed to. The match I watched, the Cleric that was fighting was baffled that his searing light wasn't working he threw up (either divine favor or divine power) and tried to melee the PM until he was pwnd by a chain lightening spell.

[Kabaon]

I agree its not flawless, but it will buy a PM time especially if their opponant is unfamiliar with the Globe (he might waste some SP before he figures it out) but the whole time the PM should be using his offensive magic especially while his opponant is scratching his head trying to figure out why his spell isn't doing damage like its supposed to. The match I watched, the Cleric that was fighting was baffled that his searing light wasn't working he threw up (either divine favor or divine power) and tried to melee the PM until he was pwnd by a chain lightening spell.

While this may also be true, there's another factor. While in a globe, you lose all level 4 and below buffs. Essentially while in the globe your a sitting duck, especially since all PM incoming healing is level 4 and below. Hence why I stated the cometfall as an opening move as it would both trap the caster to the ground, and deal a fair amount of damage which is now unreisted to an extent (proc from elements remains, but 120 damage from elements isn't much in the grand scheme) and no way to fix said problems without leaving the globe, which once you do your open for searing lights again unless your faster than the divine, manage to get a neg energy burst off and hide back inside, but by that time cometfall is off cooldown and your back to square one.

I'm pretty much speaking on experiance about cooldowns and counters to Pale Masters on divines, I have one that has a grudge against me on my server, so much that if he's in the pit and I am as well, he targets me over people actually trying to fight him.

[Deathlos]

Im a lvl 8 Wizzy... the 20ish sp hit i take from losing -2int is irrelivant... i use the ability to go into the form and... wow i lose nothing! since the ability costs more Sp then is loss!

-1DC

These are low lvls... you have few spells that require DCs, and the few spells you do have its irrelevant that you have -1 DC to em. Since the saves of all the mobs are so low... i swear most of em have negitive saves.

and in return of the -1dcs... +2 con. Heavy Fort, deathblock, immunity to Neg Levels, poison, disease*think i might be missing a few...* Great self healing. *i mean. dealing 70-80 dmg to all nearby enemies while healing yourself for that much at the same time for ONLY 25sp?* not to mention the 20dmg/3secs from your death aura. which lasts over 2mins for 35sp.
Not to mention a ranged touch attack that does a additional 60-70dmg for what... 2hp that your self healing seconds later?

And should you ever run outta sp and have no way of regaining it.. turn it off, and pop a few potions. Wow that was so hard, and you still get to keep the ranged touch attack for the same dmg!

The one really bad part about this is... in parties agisnt those God D*** Clerics throwing around those God D*** 100point Searing lights.

^^ is prolly why once i hit 12 im going to primary wraith even tho Vampire gives more benifits...

and about the globe thing... all of PMs Self healing stems from lvl 4 spells... so basicly.... your getting hit by these 100Point DPs... and cant do anything about it.

And everyone knows that on a low reflex class like casters you open up with a cometfall. What you saw was a Poor Pvper.

*edit*
ninjad...

And as someone who plays a WF Fvs.. you cant let a bad player ruin it for the class. i meele while keeping the party alive.
And ive seen several Well Geared Meele Fvs Out Dps the tank while solo healing*one was a WF one was a Elf TWF* and this was before DP which adds a whole heap of extra dmg.
*basicly, etheir the tank and all the dps where extremely gimped. oooor, hey! They Can Do Both!*

[Kabaon]

Deathlos: To be fair, the low reflex on a wizard stems from not taking insightful reflex, which gretaly increases your reflex save becuase of high int. take our base reflex save, add Greater Heroism and maybe a Nightsheild and you have about a 13-17 reflex, and then say you have 40 int, well there's another 15 to reflex for a total of 28-32 (I'm being conservative, I haven't added in item effects and gear, and that's not even as high as your int can get)

[Bzerk206]

While this may also be true, there's another factor. While in a globe, you lose all level 4 and below buffs. Essentially while in the globe your a sitting duck, especially since all PM incoming healing is level 4 and below. Hence why I stated the cometfall as an opening move as it would both trap the caster to the ground, and deal a fair amount of damage which is now unreisted to an extent (proc from elements remains, but 120 damage from elements isn't much in the grand scheme) and no way to fix said problems without leaving the globe, which once you do your open for searing lights again unless your faster than the divine, manage to get a neg energy burst off and hide back inside, but by that time cometfall is off cooldown and your back to square one.

LOL I agree but if one use's the lesser globe they still get protection from searing light (lvl 3 spell) while being able to heal themselves, since searing light is the hands down favorite light spell of most Divines it would take away what they were expecting to be their primary attack spell.

They (PM's) can literally stand in the lesser globe heal themselves with death aura casting offensive magic while the Divine is scratching his head trying to figure out why he's not hitting you

However if your opponant is an experienced player with Divine Punishment the fights not necessarily over.

A. Most fav souls with their limited amount of spells wont carry that as it wont be that usefull in the majority of quests.
B. Most people don't use Globe hence many many people are unfamilar with it
C. throw up lesser globe, hit em with Flesh to Stone, hit them with disintigrate and they are dead - this can be done by either arcane (need to be spec'd for this with items and spell focus)

[budalic]

Lol, on the contrary, I found zombie form a bit overpowered at low levels, having reacently leveled past life mule pale master (my main is pale, too).

You get heavy fort, all immunities and everything other undead form grants you. Then, you get axeblock robe and have DR 5/-. Then, you cast death aura (and, if needed, displacement) and go around laughing at melee mobs inability to damage you. (This only works from lvl 7 on, though. Lesser Aura isn't really good). Then you get hit by searing light (by A-K shaman), and, having forgotten to constantly watch your red bar, you don't notice anything till another searing light kills you. :P

- 2 int is -1 DC - and you won't feel it at this level. It's 5% less chance to land crappy spells, since best ones have save only on first tick, or don't have save at all. It starts being relevant much, much later.

[Bzerk206]

Lol, on the contrary, I found zombie form a bit overpowered at low levels, having reacently leveled past life mule pale master (my main is pale, too).

You get heavy fort, all immunities and everything other undead form grants you. Then, you get axeblock robe and have DR 5/-. Then, you cast death aura (and, if needed, displacement) and go around laughing at melee mobs inability to damage you. (This only works from lvl 7 on, though. Lesser Aura isn't really good). Then you get hit by searing light (by A-K shaman), and, having forgotten to constantly watch your red bar, you don't notice anything till another searing light kills you. :P

- 2 int is -1 DC - and you won't feel it at this level. It's 5% less chance to land crappy spells, since best ones have save only on first tick, or don't have save at all. It starts being relevant much, much later.

Thanks for your input I will take it under advisement

[Deathlos]

LOL I agree but if one use's the lesser globe they still get protection from searing light while being able to heal themselves, since searing light is the hands down favorite light spell of most Divines it would take away what they were expecting to be their primary attack spell.

However also take into effect the Insightful reflexes feat which uses your intel modifier for your reflex saves and you will have a much better chance of avoiding those cometfalls (again still not flawless but it gives you a fighting chance provided you've amped your intel as a good pure wiz should).

They (PM's) can literally stand in the globe heal themselves with death aura casting offensive magic while the Divine is scratching his head trying to figure out why he's not hitting you

However if your opponant is an experienced player with Divine Punishment the fights not necessarily over.

A. Most fav souls with their limited amount of spells wont carry that as it wont be that usefull in the majority of quests.
B. Most people don't use Globe hence many many people are unfamilar with it
C. throw up globe, hit em with Flesh to Stone, hit them with disintigrate and they are dead - this can be done by either arcane (need to be spec'd for this with items and spell focus)

I find Insightful reflexes as a waste on a pure wiz... maybe thats just me tho..
And agin, most ppl have seen globes in use from hound runs. your basing your defense on the fact that the oppenent is a noob.
*well then agin, this is PvP so... most likly both are...*

[hityawithastick]

(1) Globe of Invulnerability? You're seriously using a PvP example to call for an across-the-board change/nerf of pale master forms?

What, did a PM trash your cleric in an arena fight through clever use of a Globe?

(2) Changing Pale Master forms to be damaged by healing would have a terrifying effect on the class. It would then be used only for soloing, because a hapless PM who stands too close to the healer during any raid or quest might be suddenly and unavoidably annihilated. So no, thanks, /not signed.

(3) Also, the overall tone of your responses throughout this thread doesn't quite seem to match up with your constant requests for "constructive criticism."
You see, normally phrases such as "ROFLMAO" and "LOL" are not used in response to reasoned, measured, emotionally neutral statements; these phrases signify laughter or derision, and therefore project the impression that you are highly amused by the pitiful intellect that dares cast its feeble slings against the towering bastion of mental acuity that is your inhumanly logical mind. <== this is not an emotionally neutral statement.

May I suggest...


http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-constructive-criticism.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/criticism

[JollySwagMan]

HEAVY FORT AT LEVEL 6

just in case you forgot OP, NO OTHER CLASS IS ABLE TO ACHIEVE THIS. all others must wiat till level 9 at least, and then only if they can get a level 12 to help you farm Adamantine Ore in Relic.

Well, Warforged have some options with Moderate Fortification items. Of course Warforged is not a class, but the point stands that a WF can have 100% Fort by equipping one. The lowest level one I have is a level 5 bta belt, but a level 2 (btc) one was posted in this thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=269485

Also posted in my guide to acquiring the Nightforge Gorget at level 9 (no level 12s required):

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=284046

On Topic:

I'd like to see the targeting adjusted for Radiant Servant, and the sound effects muted/changed for Pale Master auras. Aside from these issues I'm pretty happy with the PrEs.

[NaturalHazard]

Personaly am surprised bards have rarely complained about other classes PrE's being taken to last tier first... they precede all other classes in first tier PrE by a year, and it took the devs nearly four years to add the 2nd tier to them. ;) Not that clerics should not get tier three soon... but is just a thought.



everyone forgets about us bards :(

[darkrune]

(3) Also, the overall tone of your responses throughout this thread doesn't quite seem to match up with your constant requests for "constructive criticism."
You see, normally phrases such as "ROFLMAO" and "LOL" are not used in response to reasoned, measured, emotionally neutral statements; these phrases signify laughter or derision, and therefore project the impression that you are highly amused by the pitiful intellect that dares cast its feeble slings against the towering bastion of mental acuity that is your inhumanly logical mind.

First of all +1 well said.

Second of all don't feed the troll he won't get it.

Finally can't you see this Charlie Sheen tigers blood/Adonis DNA person clearly has a superior intelligence that none of us lower beings understand, and if we disagree we clearly are irrational and are not offering "constructive criticism" that his secret developer aspirations can "take under advisement."

We just don't get it I suppose.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

On PVP

One shot kill capability in DDO PVP may be fun for some but overall not fun for anyone else.

PVP in Lobster IS Unbalanced. The solution? Form PVP groups with whatever people you want. Cant find people? Form a PVP guild.

As written above 100% fort at level 6....Self Healing....Haste Spell to offset attack speed...and Zombies are freaking awesome! Slow attack speed as the wizard learns to control his/her new undead form seems a nice bit of RP flavor...

Palemasters take double light damage in zombie form, and 4x light damage in Vamp form iirc

Divine Casters can cast Inflict Wounds and Harm spell on PM to heal them.

[Kabaon]

See what I don't understand about the Death Aura. How is it so annoying? I'm serious... I've asked this question before and no one responded.

Every other class has sound effects, and even Rad servents aura makes noise... I personally like the death aura sound, it helps me out. If I forget to glance at my aura now and again I can usually figure out that if I don't hear me healing, then chances are it's not there anymore.

I suppose it would be annoying to hear if you had your sound effect volume maxed, and your playing in surround sound with it up high, but I dunno.

[Sarisa]

See what I don't understand about the Death Aura. How is it so annoying? I'm serious... I've asked this question before and no one responded.

Every other class has sound effects, and even Rad servents aura makes noise... I personally like the death aura sound, it helps me out. If I forget to glance at my aura now and again I can usually figure out that if I don't hear me healing, then chances are it's not there anymore.

I suppose it would be annoying to hear if you had your sound effect volume maxed, and your playing in surround sound with it up high, but I dunno.

After firing off the Radiant Aura, it's almost totally silent. You have to have your SFX volume extremely high to hear anything. At normal volumes, you just get healed, no constant 'ding' or 'water drop through a rusty faucet' at each tick.

With the PM Aura, along with the Spellsinger SP and HP regen songs, it's a persistent LOUD noise that can still be heard constantly even with your SFX volume set down to 2-3. The high volume of these effects makes it difficult to use sound clues during normal questing.

For the PM aura in particular, the tone of the sound is very close to water torture for a lot of people, whereas the 'ding' from the songs doesn't bother most people quite as much.

If only the PM using the aura heard the grinding noise, I wouldn't mind as much. The big problem is that players can adversely affect others play experience just be being in the same general area. A less irritating tone would also help.

[hityawithastick]

See what I don't understand about the Death Aura. How is it so annoying? I'm serious... I've asked this question before and no one responded.

Every other class has sound effects, and even Rad servents aura makes noise... I personally like the death aura sound, it helps me out. If I forget to glance at my aura now and again I can usually figure out that if I don't hear me healing, then chances are it's not there anymore.

I suppose it would be annoying to hear if you had your sound effect volume maxed, and your playing in surround sound with it up high, but I dunno.

I kinda have the same reaction. I personally like the death aura sound--it sounds (IMHO) just like air rattling through undead lungs. I am aware that some people don't like it, but really, I can't do anything about that--I can't toggle the noise off on command.

Also: Argh, I fed the troll! I hear that makes them aggressive :D

[redoubt]

ROFL are you seriously asking me this? IF I didn't play with anybody that can self heal how would I play with Clerics or Fav Souls which I need to keep me alive.

Yes MANY of the melee spec have a splash, not ALL of them. I've grouped with a WF Fav Soul, that straight out told me he only self heals because he is concentrating on his melee. I've grouped with PURE Clerics that inform me (after the fact) that they havent spent much points on Wisdom in favor of a higher strength, Dex, and Con. I always form my own groups rather then join other peoples (unless a friend or a guildie asks me to). Do you know how messed up it is to ask for a healer *specifically in the post* and a pure cleric requests to join, then when you get started you notice everybodys life dropping and the Cleric is so busy trying to melee that party members start dying? This is not something thats happened once or twice, this happens to me at least twice a week. Its the primary reason I made a cleric because.......if you want a job done right.....

I'm sorry to hear you have such bad luck. Oh, the question was tongue in cheek, btw.

I rarely have trouble with FvS and clerics who don't heal. Maybe its a server thing. I have had lots of them join and state up front that they are melee or dps etc, but those folks don't usually join if the lfm says "healer".

I have a casting/healing/turning cleric and a TWF FvS. The first has awesome heals, but if you told me all I was supposed to do was heal, I'd leave. I can do so much more than heal. On the TWF FVS, the bio talks about the melee focus of the character. I don't join groups looking for a "healer" on this toon. When I do join a group I tell them right away it is a melee toon that has some "emergency" capabilites AND that I'm willing to drop (with no hard feelings) if that does not work for the group.

On the flip side of things my WF wiz acts as the "healer" frequently in guild runs as we have lots of WF... go figure...

I think I've said stuff like this before, and the best advice I can give is find a better guild...

[Bzerk206]

(1) Globe of Invulnerability? You're seriously using a PvP example to call for an across-the-board change/nerf of pale master forms?

What, did a PM trash your cleric in an arena fight through clever use of a Globe?

(2) Changing Pale Master forms to be damaged by healing would have a terrifying effect on the class. It would then be used only for soloing, because a hapless PM who stands too close to the healer during any raid or quest might be suddenly and unavoidably annihilated. So no, thanks, /not signed.

(3) Also, the overall tone of your responses throughout this thread doesn't quite seem to match up with your constant requests for "constructive criticism."
You see, normally phrases such as "ROFLMAO" and "LOL" are not used in response to reasoned, measured, emotionally neutral statements; these phrases signify laughter or derision, and therefore project the impression that you are highly amused by the pitiful intellect that dares cast its feeble slings against the towering bastion of mental acuity that is your inhumanly logical mind. <== this is not an emotionally neutral statement.

May I suggest...


http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-constructive-criticism.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/criticism

My response to your 3 questions

1. This is a statement not a question

2. If you read really carefully I specifically said that the PM's should take damage from healing spells in PvP just as undead mobs take in DDO questing, I would also be satisfied if the devs made it so undead mobs couldn't take damage from healing spells. Either way just make the story consistant

3. No, this one is going to be really hard so try to wrap your mind around it I'll sum it up in 2 points

A.) Telling me that my build is gimped is insulting its not constructive
B.) personally insulting me and my intelligence is also not constructive

Furthermore if you read through the post there have been several people that have made points counter to my main point and I have thanked them for it. Because they said their points respectfully I didn't even bother arguing with them

If you insult me do you seriously expect me to take you or your info seriously? Why wouldn't I laugh? Should I cry instead and hide from everybody like a child or am I supposed to change my opinion because of your and others blantant disrespect?

You refur to me as a troll in a later post, yet what is this post? Does this provide useful info to me or any of the readers? Is it useful in any capacity at all? Should you be labled a troll because you post stuff like this? Why don't you take a good look in a mirror before you decide to lable somebody else

So the only thing I can gather from this is if I don't change my opinion to suit the masses I am labled a troll, I have reitered a dozen times why I think Zombie form is gimped and I have seen no sufficient evidence to the contrary that I am wrong so I maintain that position - if that makes me a troll so be it.

Thanks again for another useless contribution to this post

[Vissarion]

Oh I've run with Battle Clerics and the famous WF fav souls before (generally self healers). I don't like having them in my group, more often then not they don't bother mentioning they are spec'd for melee. Those that at least warn me are ok, but if I have a choice I will pick a traditional DPS class I don't like grouping with players spec'd for soloing.

Blaming WF FVS's in general because you happened to run with some idiots who didn't heal the rest of the party is like blaming a Maserati because a drunken teenager happened to crash it.

You should learn to make a distinction between how viable a type of character is and whether or not the problem exists between the keyboard and the chair. This goes for all classes.

[Bzerk206]

First of all +1 well said.

Second of all don't feed the troll he won't get it.

Finally can't you see this Charlie Sheen tigers blood/Adonis DNA person clearly has a superior intelligence that none of us lower beings understand, and if we disagree we clearly are irrational and are not offering "constructive criticism" that his secret developer aspirations can "take under advisement."

We just don't get it I suppose.

This isn't a troll post huh? There is useful infor here? ROFLMAO

[KillEveryone]

See my previous response about characters building, as for your last line, I am a TR'd (former cleric) Fighter with a starting con of 16 I am neither squishy nor gimpy. I'll thank you to group with me before you make judgements about my ability to build. As for Healers as a former Cleric I do have PLEANTY of experience being one and understanding a healers roll in the group, a healer that doesn't heal is USLESS and I always write there names down and refuse to group with them in the future. Can they build anything they want sure, thats the great thing about this game you can be something that fits your personality, and everybody PICKS their jobs when they pick their classes. Clerics and Fav Souls that can't/won't heal are useless to the group, Rogues that can't disable traps are equally useless. IF I want DPS I will pick up one of the traditional DPS classes with a high BAB progression, and although I know some Assassins are as good a DPS as any other, MOST are not. I don't ask for Rogues/Fav souls/Clerics to join my group if I need DPS THATS WHAT DPS CLASSES ARE FOR!!! Thanks for your useless contribution to this post.

No one picks their job when they pick their class.

They pick their class because there are benefits to that class that they want to experience. They don't pick that class to do a job.

Just because I have a FvS icon doesn't mean I'm going to party heal unless I join someone's group and they asked me to do that.

This is what you don't get.

Until you pay for someones Turbine points/sub, you don't get to tell someone how to run their character.

[hityawithastick]

Blaming WF FVS's in general because you happened to run with some idiots who didn't heal the rest of the party is like blaming a Maserati because a drunken teenager happened to crash it.

You should learn to make a distinction between how viable a type of character is and whether or not the problem exists between the keyboard and the chair. This goes for all classes.

+1 and QFT.




So the only thing I can gather from this is if I don't change my opinion to suit the masses I am labled a troll, I have reitered a dozen times why I think Zombie form is gimped and I have seen no sufficient evidence to the contrary that I am wrong so I maintain that position - if that makes me a troll so be it.


Yes, but you see, we have provided you with the (valid) reasons why zombie form is not gimped, but very useful at-level. Heavy fort, self-healing, immunity to negative levels and immunity to fear, not to mention the rest of the undead immunities and the self-healing and the pale master 1 bonus hit points, all for only the cost of -1 DC to your spells (and at that level, you shouldn't need very high DCs to hit anything) and -20% attack speed (like you were going to melee anyway!). You don't lose spell points when your Int goes down, because your maximum spell points decreases by 15 and you've already spent spell points to go into zombie form.

It has also been pointed out that, flavor arguments aside, pale masters are not completely undead. The actual text of Shroud of the Lich says that you "shroud yourself in negative energy and assume many aspects of a lich." You do not die and then become undead. You instead "open yourself to negative energy" and imitate the undead. As a living creature, you cannot be harmed by positive energy, but you are imitating the undead, and so you cannot be healed by it either.

Now, if pale master III made you actually a lich, and gave you permanent undead traits, including not needing to hold your breath, immunity to critical hits, etc., instead of a "form" that you could toggle on and off, then yes, I would support making healing damage PMs, because that would make sense, because they would actually be undead.

So, there seems to be actually no way to change your opinion, seeing as the previous posts have all raised these very valid points and you persist in your derisive responses.

[Bzerk206]

No one picks their job when they pick their class.

They pick their class because there are benefits to that class that they want to experience. They don't pick that class to do a job.

Just because I have a FvS icon doesn't mean I'm going to party heal unless I join someone's group and they asked me to do that.

This is what you don't get.

Until you pay for someones Turbine points/sub, you don't get to tell someone how to run their character.

Oh I get it, this is what you don't get, if somebody is building a party and they ask a cleric or fs to join, why do you think they ask specifically those classes?

If somebody is building a party and asks for a rogue.....why do you suppose they are asking that..

IF somebody is building a party and puts in "needs tank" what do you suppose they are looking for? A cleric?

Yes you pick your job when you pick your class(es) (for multi's) this is how GROUPING works, need a bunch of characters to fill different rolls.

Do people need to build characters the way I prefer.....absolutely not, however do I need to group with that person again if their build sux.......nope, and I won't its that simple

[KillEveryone]

Oh I get it, this is what you don't get, if somebody is building a party and they ask a cleric or fs to join, why do you think they ask specifically those classes?

If somebody is building a party and asks for a rogue.....why do you suppose they are asking that..

IF somebody is building a party and puts in "needs tank" what do you suppose they are looking for? A cleric?

Yes you pick your job when you pick your class(es) (for multi's) this is how GROUPING works, need a bunch of characters to fill different rolls.

Do people need to build characters the way I prefer.....absolutely not, however do I need to group with that person again if their build sux.......nope, and I won't its that simple

If they want a tank, a melee FvS can tank, so can a melee cleric.

And if they are asking for a healer, they could also be asking for a wiz with reconstruct.

You still missed the point.

If someone is joining a party without any specifications to that party...not requesting a healer...and a cleric or FvS join, it doesn't mean that cleric or FvS is going to party heal.

If there are stipulations on the lfm that a divine joins and they are going to be a nanny, then yes they should be that nanny but really, if you want something to abuse, get a hireling.

[Bzerk206]

+1 and QFT.




Yes, but you see, we have provided you with the (valid) reasons why zombie form is not gimped, but very useful at-level. Heavy fort, self-healing, immunity to negative levels and immunity to fear, not to mention the rest of the undead immunities and the self-healing and the pale master 1 bonus hit points, all for only the cost of -1 DC to your spells (and at that level, you shouldn't need very high DCs to hit anything) and -20% attack speed (like you were going to melee anyway!). You don't lose spell points when your Int goes down, because your maximum spell points decreases by 15 and you've already spent spell points to go into zombie form.

It has also been pointed out that, flavor arguments aside, pale masters are not completely undead. The actual text of Shroud of the Lich says that you "shroud yourself in negative energy and assume many aspects of a lich." You do not die and then become undead. You instead "open yourself to negative energy" and imitate the undead. As a living creature, you cannot be harmed by positive energy, but you are imitating the undead, and so you cannot be healed by it either.

Now, if pale master III made you actually a lich, and gave you permanent undead traits, including not needing to hold your breath, immunity to critical hits, etc., instead of a "form" that you could toggle on and off, then yes, I would support making healing damage PMs, because that would make sense, because they would actually be undead.

So, there seems to be actually no way to change your opinion, seeing as the previous posts have all raised these very valid points and you persist in your derisive responses.

Thank you this at least provides info, but this is the first time somebody has pointed out the "shroud of zombie" thing. Ok I reneg my statements about Zombie form and the taking damage from healing in PvP.

The point of this was to point out the inconsistancy of the story line because my problem originally was that I as a cleric can heal undeads and it does serious damage, I didn't understand that PM's are not truely undead.......

The heavy fort disease immunity etc does not impress me in zombie form, they took the wizards most important stat and gimped it - (I am not a fan of that), I still think when I TR into a wiz that I will be an AM from 6-12 then switch over to a PM for the rest....

[Kabaon]

Oh I get it, this is what you don't get, if somebody is building a party and they ask a cleric or fs to join, why do you think they ask specifically those classes?

If somebody is building a party and asks for a rogue.....why do you suppose they are asking that..

IF somebody is building a party and puts in "needs tank" what do you suppose they are looking for? A cleric?

Yes you pick your job when you pick your class(es) (for multi's) this is how GROUPING works, need a bunch of characters to fill different rolls.

Do people need to build characters the way I prefer.....absolutely not, however do I need to group with that person again if their build sux.......nope, and I won't its that simple

I don't agree with this statement at all. Yeah there are archetypes in DDO, what everyone who makes a group assumes is that certain classes can't do things. I'll use me and a friend of mine on Ghallandra.... we'll call him "Bob".

As I mentioned, I play a PM Wizzy, level 20. Wizzies are expected to buff parties of 6 and 12. I can tell you right now I don't buff on my server, but does that make me a bad player? No, in fact I'm a fairly decent player. Why? becuase I can get the job done. Basically even though I don't buff, I find it unnecessary in 6 man groups becuase most of the time, I'm doing most of the work (unless I'm playing with someone better than me). Occassionally I get chewed out for lack of buffs, but by now many that party with me have gotten over this fact. Not only that, I can tank between 1 and 8 trash mobs (and occassionally mini-bosses, ala The Jailor from ToD) and live. A drow wizzy shouldn't be tanking in your PoV.

BoB on the otherhand, played a Bard (he tr'ed recently though thanks to U9). Pre-U9 he was an intmitank bard, over 700 hp, and an intim high enough to lock in ToD bosses as well as the lower raids. Most bards are expected to buff, back-up heal, and generally do some fighting, no matter the Bard PrE.

These are just examples of people playing differently than what the playerbase expects. That being said, yeah BAD players should be blacklisted, but condemning all of that type of character is a bit wrong.

Edit: As for bailing on Zombie form till level 12, becuase Int goes down -2 is a bit drastic. When you tr you'll have lots of fancy goodies and twink gear that this "Won't be a problem". I'm Taking Zombie form when I tr becuase I could care less about losing 2 int when at level 5 I'm going to have a +6 int item over my head. Overall I'm going to have more sp even with the cost on zombie, and the auras. And better yet I can ease the pain of healers doing their job at lower levels by being self sufficent. I'd say give the form a chance before you condemn it. I tried it on Lam and thought it was overall decent for level 6, and again as I pointed out, becuase of spell point costs changing, you won't miss the 15 sp you "lose" by going into zombie form becuase as others have said, the cost will negate that 15 lost.

[Vissarion]

Oh I get it, this is what you don't get, if somebody is building a party and they ask a cleric or fs to join, why do you think they ask specifically those classes?

If somebody is building a party and asks for a rogue.....why do you suppose they are asking that..

IF somebody is building a party and puts in "needs tank" what do you suppose they are looking for? A cleric?

Yes you pick your job when you pick your class(es) (for multi's) this is how GROUPING works, need a bunch of characters to fill different rolls.

Do people need to build characters the way I prefer.....absolutely not, however do I need to group with that person again if their build sux.......nope, and I won't its that simple

When I ask for a rogue, it's mainly for melee DPS. Trap skills are a side benefit, and unless you're rocking elite or epic, they are usually of minimal importance. And even the best melee DPSing rogue should have adequate trap skills for epics.

As for the broader comment about picking jobs when you pick your classes, this is true to a limited extent. But because DDO allows for a greater degree of flexibility in defining those roles than most MMOs, fulfilling your job should not preclude other possibilities.

To wit:

I have solo healed elite Shroud.

I have tanked Vision of Destruction.

I have filled a melee DPS role in most raids and performed up to expectations.

All of this was done on the same character.

The "cleric and FVS must only heal" perspective suffers from a kind of myopia. That myopia is derived from the fact that those are the only classes that can consistently heal endgame content (though healing-specced bards can do the same, and in some epic 6-mans, better than their divine counterparts), and so whenever people see comments like "melee" FVS, they assume it means they don't heal.

This is, of course, untrue. And any FVS worth their salt should develop one of two approaches to the game:

1) Healing and support melee DPS

2) Healing and offensive casting

If the FVS only does healing, then sure, they are meeting the limited needs of a given raid group, but they are DRAMATICALLY falling short of the class's potential. I would much rather have a healer that can also do something else well.

[Bzerk206]

I don't agree with this statement at all. Yeah there are archetypes in DDO, what everyone who makes a group assumes is that certain classes can't do things. I'll use me and a friend of mine on Ghallandra.... we'll call him "Bob".

As I mentioned, I play a PM Wizzy, level 20. Wizzies are expected to buff parties of 6 and 12. I can tell you right now I don't buff on my server, but does that make me a bad player? No, in fact I'm a fairly decent player. Why? becuase I can get the job done. Basically even though I don't buff, I find it unnecessary in 6 man groups becuase most of the time, I'm doing most of the work (unless I'm playing with someone better than me). Occassionally I get chewed out for lack of buffs, but by now many that party with me have gotten over this fact. Not only that, I can tank between 1 and 8 trash mobs (and occassionally mini-bosses, ala The Jailor from ToD) and live. A drow wizzy shouldn't be tanking in your PoV.

BoB on the otherhand, played a Bard (he tr'ed recently though thanks to U9). Pre-U9 he was an intmitank bard, over 700 hp, and an intim high enough to lock in ToD bosses as well as the lower raids. Most bards are expected to buff, back-up heal, and generally do some fighting, no matter the Bard PrE.

These are just examples of people playing differently than what the playerbase expects. That being said, yeah BAD players should be blacklisted, but condemning all of that type of character is a bit wrong.

oh I agree, as I've said I've played with some non-conventional builds before quite successfully even friended and guilded some of them.

I'll give everybody 1 chance to prove their build is effective, but especially with "experimental" type builds if that persons build is ineffective then why would I group with that person again?

I myself have made "experimental" builds I have a Dwarven Kensai Mechanic Rogue that weilds a Great Axe and I've never failed a trap and do excellent DPS (if I ever do fail a trap I will immediately re-roll him after the quest and inform my group that I am in that thats what I am doing so they don't blacklist me).

[Kaldais]

Zombie form is good, any clerics/fvs who joins a non-BYOH group and refuses to heal party members when asked are bad, any player who doesn't have a stack of self healing potions to use when met a bad cleric/fvs are noobs.

[leadhead]

Does anybody realize that PM summons are broken?! You know one of the larger aspects of playing the class? Didnt see it mentioned in the 5 pages I have read so far.


Just throwin that out there! LOL!:)

[Bzerk206]

Zombie form is good, any clerics/fvs who joins a non-BYOH group and refuses to heal party members when asked are bad, any player who doesn't have a stack of self healing potions to use when met a bad cleric/fvs are noobs.

LOL yeah, it took me over a year to figure out the byoh pots but now I go into quests with 200 of em. But it's still irritating when you run across an ineffective build (especially healers and rogues that critically fail traps consistantly).

[hityawithastick]

Does anybody realize that PM summons are broken?! You know one of the larger aspects of playing the class? Didnt see it mentioned in the 5 pages I have read so far.


Just throwin that out there! LOL!:)

Broken? How? Last I checked the skele summons worked fine--they had a tendency to just mince around instead of attacking, but they sucked up aggro real well. Now I use create undead to get a little extra spellcasting power into the party--the spell has been adjusted to mimic summon monster.

[Gremmlynn]

I myself have made "experimental" builds I have a Dwarven Kensai Mechanic Rogue that weilds a Great Axe and I've never failed a trap and do excellent DPS (if I ever do fail a trap I will immediately re-roll him after the quest and inform my group that I am in that thats what I am doing so they don't blacklist me).I would have to say that anyone that blacklisted me for failing a trap probably isn't someone I would want to run with again anyway. Then again, applying for quests high enough above me to make traps interesting tends to filter those types out well enough already.

[Failedlegend]

Broken? How? Last I checked the skele summons worked fine--they had a tendency to just mince around instead of attacking, but they sucked up aggro real well. Now I use create undead to get a little extra spellcasting power into the party--the spell has been adjusted to mimic summon monster.

Its been calculated to be something like 40+AP to get the third tier summons.

[hityawithastick]

Its been calculated to be something like 40+AP to get the third tier summons.

Well that's not broken, it's just lame. :D