A no spoiler shroud?

[Kelavam]

I am finally Shroud ready. Finished flagging my first character a couple days ago, and helped some others in my guild also finish flagging their first character. We are excited to be able to finally run this infamous quest, and look forward to learning the ins and outs of it.

I've never been one for spoilers. I hate learning a score of a sports event before I get a chance to watch it. I hate people who post about movies that just came out that I have not seen yet. I am not a fan of doing a quest in DDO for the first time and having someone telling me in the ins and outs of the quest and everything that needs to be done to succeed. I prefer to learn by doing, by making mistakes, and yes, even by failing.

That being said... I was discussing this in guild chat last night and it because a topic of interest. Many people believed that running a shroud with no one along who knew what they were doing or with someone who would not give spoilers was going to end in disaster. Several claimed they would not run the quest with a whole party of newbs, because for them it was about completion. I do not mind failure; I learn quests the best when I am allowed to run them (with others of a like mind) and make mistakes and learn from them.

Several of my guildies also claimed getting a "no spoiler" shroud going was going to be hard because very few people think along the same lines. It's more about the completion for most people than it is about learning quests and having the enjoyment I find in running a quest for the first time.

Am I in the minority? Is running a "no spoiler" shroud going to be pointless? Am I deluding myself into thinking I can find enough people willing to try this? Is there anyone out there with this frame of mind?

I know a few people out there are going to see this as stupid and I should just suck it up and be lead through the quest. The completion is the most important. And I do realize, after 2-3+ years of playing and running the quests 100's of times, that this seems like a stupid and foreign concept to some. Or maybe even less enjoyable with a party of new players.

My theory is that there was a time when these quests were unknown to everyone. When the game was first released, when a new update comes out - there are new quests that people have to learn initially. And some might have considered this a chore, but I have to imagine some players thought like I did and enjoyed every minute of every failure and success in the process of learning the quests.

Maybe I am setting myself up here, but I have approached my time in DDO with this in mind, and have enjoyed this game immensely. I enjoy rerunning quests almost as much as my first time through, but there is something about succeeding in a particularly tough quest with only your own knowledge gained as you go (as a group) to guide you.

[brian14]

Basically, you want to learn by doing. Great, but do not expect many people who DO know Shroud to go along with you, for several reasons.

First, Shroud has several very non-obvious "failure points" where if you do "what comes naturally" from the rest of DDO experience, you WILL cause raid to fail (or lose two optional chests, in one particular failure point). Moreover, one person can do it, and short of telling him not to (i.e. "spoilering") there is nothing the rest of the group can do to prevent it.

Second, most people run Shroud for greensteel ingredients. They have a specific purpose, and want to do it as efficiently as possible. Teaching a newb along the way is okay (for most -- some refuse to do even that). Watching a bumbling newb "learn on his own" is not. And really, if you out of principle refuse to hear my advice, why would I want to group with you? You want to learn on yor own... learn on your own.

If you want to organize 12 like-minded people to learn Shroud together, more power to you. But it will not be easy.

[fuzzy1guy]

Theres just too many places in the shroud where one person who knows nothing.... Can screw things up for everyone else... For various meanings of screw up. Lost loot. Forever long fight. Waste of resources. Pots. Cause a wipe. Put on timer and lost loot. Enter a round without sp. ect ect ect.

[MartinusWyllt]

...
Am I in the minority? Is running a "no spoiler" shroud going to be pointless? Am I deluding myself into thinking I can find enough people willing to try this? Is there anyone out there with this frame of mind?...

I totally get where you're coming from, but for the Shroud I think your guildies are correct. If you truly run it without foreknowledge you'll need to be willing to restart the raid numerous times as you'll most likely fail in the first part several times figuring out what to do...and in the second part, though this might be easier to figure out...part 3 will take a long time but if you get that far 4 and 5 might not be too painful...assuming all these new people running it just "happened" to have the appropriate weapons.

I like trying plenty of quests spoiler-free as it is fun...I think the first but I think the Shroud would be extremely frustrating to run in a world where everyone and their brother knows it pretty well, that 30 min completion would turn into, what, 3-4 hours?

I would definitely not want to run it pretending I didn't know what to do.

[ulticleo]

First off, I can understand your point of view, and share it for the most part. When a new pack comes out, I solo it or explore with a guildy or two to give us a chance to learn the quest without some smart alec pug rattling off.

However, raids are different. Raids are generally run for the loot, or the challenge. E.g. the only reason to run elite shroud is for the challenge, the only reason to run reaver's fate is for the loot (it sure isn't for the fun or challenge of it...(-; )

The "old" raids (von, titan, abbot, to some degree DQ and reaver) took weeks and months before they were ever completed. Puzzles had to be figured out, working strategies had to be found, etc. Even shroud and ToD, which follow a different kind of narrative, took time to figure out (eChrono was beat the first day it came out, by comparison). Unlike quests, pretty much all of which are designed to be beatable the first time through by a patient, skilled and well geared party, raids were designed to punish. All of them have mechanisms to make you fail throughout either by party wipe, or becoming unbeatable. You asked for no spoilers, and I don't know which raids you've run so far, so I won't give examples.

The point is, it would be hard to find 11 other like minded people who have never run shroud who will persist with you through the dozens of attempts it will take you to figure out the raid and how to beat it. And I certainly doubt any seasoned player would have the patience to sit and watch while you try to figure it out.

I do no-spoiler quests, and would gladly take you through the pit and let you figure it out if you want, but for raids.... well, let's just say I am waiting for the next titan or abbot to come out :D

[stoerm]

I'd join a no-spoiler or even an all-virgin raid, even just to fail once.

[zztophat]

It's quests like the shroud that make me wonder how the first people to figure them out, figured them out.

[brian14]

Theres just too many places in the shroud where one person who knows nothing.... Can screw things up for everyone else... For various meanings of screw up. Lost loot. Forever long fight. Waste of resources. Pots. Cause a wipe. Put on timer and lost loot. Enter a round without sp. ect ect ect.
BTW, last night on Cannith there was an individual who did all of the above, except wipe. Although I suspect she was doing it on purpose. After the raid everyone squelched her.

[PNellesen]

@OP - I'm normally of the same mindset, but I suspect it'll be tough to either find 12 people who have never done the Shroud, or to find enough people willing to "pretend" (there was a thread on this same topic a while back from a player who found some friends willing to pretend, and reading the reactions of the "pretenders" was telling). I wish you luck (I would have loved to try this on my first Shroud runs), but let me recommend that your casters and healers be encouraged to NOT use Mnemonic Potions (or even Heal scrolls) in your first 5 or 10 attempts, because they will likely use up their entire supply rather quickly ;)

[thenalim]

It's quests like the shroud that make me wonder how the first people to figure them out, figured them out.

Shroud shouldnt be that hard to figure out, after a day or so of trying I think most would have solved the problems, many much faster. Abbot on the other hand, that one is awesome in its weirdness.

[amethystdragon]

I would like to know what you consider to be a spoiler?

I remember when I first started trying to learn the shroud. It was in guild runs that only had a few people who completed it before, and they were trying to help the rest of us learn what to do. It took hours and we always ended up failing, after a dozen times I had enough. I latter joined a pug where most of the members had completed before and knew what they were doing. They were willing to help me learn and explain what to do and why. I was still amazed by what I was seeing and learned a lot. I did not consider the brief explanations that I received to be spoilers.

The shroud has many points that if you are not careful, you will fail; and it is hard to know what caused the fail in order to learn from it.

That being said, I also enjoying experience new quests for the first time. I enjoy running with newer players to see their reaction to a quest.

[psteen1]

@OP: LOL. To continue our discussion from the live server last night (this is Utzz)... I think it would be great for you to give it a try, and I agree with you that for every single quest out there, I also took it slow either by myself or with a small group of like minded people. But raids are different. I honestly think it would take your group weeks to months of figuring it out by yourself- and as you progress further, you would be spending an hour or two, and a ton of pots, and THEN wiping, and that would be really frustrating. Could you keep doing that over and over? Maybe you could, but could you keep 11 other people (of the proper class makeup) interested for that long without one of them leaving you?

Plus, none of your group is going to be twinked out with the proper gear, and even figuring out what gear you need would take a lot of work and plat. I predict that even getting through part 1 of the shroud, which is pretty mind numbing once you know how to do it, will still take 10 tries or more- and that is only 20% of raid, and it is the easiest. (sorry about those spoilers).

That being said, I would love to see you try and get your report on it later on.

[Shade]

You can indeed beat the shroud with 12 players who have never stepped foot in it before and have zero knowledge of it, on the first try. I did (well i knew the basic premise of it from a friend who tried it and failed, but nothing concrete)

Incredibly challenging to figure out and came incredibly close to whiping several times despite having some of the best players on the server in the group, but tons of fun.

I actually really recommend you do try this.

Just put up an lfm and demand only players who haven't run it before, or just 1 time that didnt get the full details on whats going on.

Long as you put it up somewhere near primetime, i bet youd fill it eventually. Everyone wants to run shroud, and im sure theres lot of like minded players like yourself who havent yet for that reason.

Kinda hope they do a very limited window of lamania preview on the upcoming new raid, so we can experience it live first time without spoilers too. Lammania lure is rather strong tho, so hopefully its only available maybe 1-2 days before it goes live, just to let us check for major issues that may block the release.

[Gkar]

I've never been one for spoilers. I hate learning a score of a sports event before I get a chance to watch it. I hate people who post about movies that just came out that I have not seen yet. I am not a fan of doing a quest in DDO for the first time and having someone telling me in the ins and outs of the quest and everything that needs to be done to succeed. I prefer to learn by doing, by making mistakes, and yes, even by failing.

I was around for the Shroud release so I've done it without really knowing what was going on. Like all raids, you can learn that way, we all did in the beginning, but its going to hurt and you will fail - repeatedly.

Without spoiling it let me say there are certain patterns, triggers, and linked requirements in each step of the raid and if you miss them or do things in the wrong order failure (or loss of chests) will occur.

If you are in a static group that doesn't mind failing a dozen or more times to figure it out, more power to you.

[Hoglum]

I say go for it. Find people who haven't been there & ask if they'll commit to at least a few tries. Don't take anyone who knows the dungeon.

The thing is, you can always get a guide later if everyone gets frustrated. If you use a guide up front, you'll never have the chance to figure it out yourself.

We're adventurers, right? What better challenge than a raid?

[katz]

how opposed are you to carrying along a patient someone with patience who knows the quest and has a good imagination and a fast wit... and did i mention alot of patience? they could drop hints without being spoilery perhaps? "oh look, such-and-such is happening (or not happening), perhaps you guys should do X,Y,and Z?" i think that's what the other group i read about did. they were trying to do the same thing you are. just be sure that if you do that, everyone in the raid knows about it, and is ok with it. i seem to recall that story someone else in the group got frustrated with the slow going and the exploring and whatnot and, not knowing what the one person was trying to accomplish, explained the next section of the raid.

maybe something like that would work?

[Matuse]

I have no problem with learning a quest and experiencing it rather than rushing through to the end. But the Shroud is not that quest. There are several portions where you are on a timer, and stopping to smell the roses can cause the raid to fail or lose ingredient chests.

Also, most people who run the shroud have run the shroud a LOT. 40+ times. They just want to get through it and done as quickly and efficiently as possible. Guiding a newbie through is never a problem that I've seen, but having a known shroud newbie bungle his way through it and mess it up for everyone else in the name of being unspoiled... is just not going to happen.

Your best bet will be to pre-arrange on your server forums or within your guild for people who haven't done it before and are willing to learn without spoilers. A random PUG is going to have someone (or 5) with 80 completions under his belt, and they'll be tearing their hair out in frustration at the rest of you. Not fair to anyone.

[Kelavam]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I appreciate it immensely.

I know it is going to be hard, hard to find a group of 12 like minded people and the quest itself is going to be a challenge. When we (my family, friends and I) first start playing any MMO, we try to avoid anything spoiler wise. I am lucky that my core group is like minded. But we are, at best, 6 in number on DDO. In the past, running a raid or two for the first time, we were disappointed when, even with the request for (and agreed upon) no spoilers, the frustration on the vets end was obvious as they started doing things and failing to even explain what they were doing. That was even more frustrating to us than a spoiler run, as we felt cheated at the end with a completion.

But, I guess a spoiler would be, by my definition, explaining the ins and outs of a quest. Leaving nothing for anyone to figure out. I do not want to spoiler anything for anyone who might not have run a quest, but I want to use this as an example. *SPOILER ALERT*

Von6 comes to mind. Running around the "bases" (as we learned later they were called) and having to destroy the towers at the same time. Took us some time to figure that out. We would ran around destroying the towers one at a time and wondered why nothng happened. We went back and saw the towers were back, so we did it again.. Third time we did it as teams and got them all at the same time. Then to have someone rush off to face the dragon solo. You can imagine how that ended. But 2nd time through, we all went in together against Vela and gave her one heck of a fight... Took a lot of rounds, but we completed. Getting that completion, all on our own, was the most fun for me. (and my core group).

Telling us we are facing a dragon, well, that was known to us because of the text in the quest chain.

concerning any raid (and I might be way off(and do not correct me if I am wrong)) but, minus a boss or two, I would like to assume that the flagging quests give us a good idea what we will be facing. And there have been enough references to boss beaters that we pretty much know a specific type of weapon is going to work better than others..

I (and my core group) have accepted a lot of failed runs until things were figured out. This might be no different; but we ran crucible several (many) times before we completed. We ran VON flagged and raid(s) several times.

I know failure for a lot of people sucks - this game is rather tough (compared to other games I have played) for failed quests. DDO is one of few (the only?) game that gives exp at the end of the quest (minus optionals) so a failed run means a loss of time and effort, so I understand from a vets point of view that this can be frustrating and do not expect any vet to want to tag along. (but if you do and want to experience it from a new point of view, I would welcome you in the run).

We are going to try, that is our M.O. I just hope we can get a group of 12 total together to make the run. I know it can be shortmanned (and if we have to, we have to) but I see that as a way of making an already hard experience harder.

Utzz--> I will journal our attempts through the shroud. I have no problem if you guys get a chuckle at my expense. :) Just promise not to call us noobs too many times.. :P

[Kelavam]

I have no problem with learning a quest and experiencing it rather than rushing through to the end. But the Shroud is not that quest. There are several portions where you are on a timer, and stopping to smell the roses can cause the raid to fail or lose ingredient chests.

Also, most people who run the shroud have run the shroud a LOT. 40+ times. They just want to get through it and done as quickly and efficiently as possible. Guiding a newbie through is never a problem that I've seen, but having a known shroud newbie bungle his way through it and mess it up for everyone else in the name of being unspoiled... is just not going to happen.

Your best bet will be to pre-arrange on your server forums or within your guild for people who haven't done it before and are willing to learn without spoilers. A random PUG is going to have someone (or 5) with 80 completions under his belt, and they'll be tearing their hair out in frustration at the rest of you. Not fair to anyone.

No worries here, I would not put anyone through that with a PUG run. Even explaining in the LFM is not enough. I would do this in the guild forum and in the server forum and set it up ahead of time. Having run (as an example) waterworks as many times as I have, I know it can be frustrating to sit back and watch new people run with it. But I will sit there and pull my hair out as opposed to giving spoilers. If asked, I might share what I know, but if not, I will sit there and tag along with whatever group and watch them explore. I mean, if I expect people to respect my wishes, I should not be a hypocrate, right?

And if your goal is to run and complete as quick as possible, it would be a horrible fit to tag along in a group such as mine. And if someone made this request of me, I would tag along, bite my tongue, and try to enjoy their first experience as I hope to enjoy mine!

[In_Like_Flynn]

When we first ran the Shroud, upon its appearance, we knew nothing. The first attempt ended quickly. It was a process of discovery, and subsequent trips resulted in more failures than successes. But, oh, the glory of the successes.

It was the most fun I ever had in the Shroud.

[psteen1]

Utzz--> I will journal our attempts through the shroud. I have no problem if you guys get a chuckle at my expense. :) Just promise not to call us noobs too many times.. :P

lol. Relatively speaking, I'm just as much of a noob as anyone, only being in the game for a year and a half, though I have run the shroud about 20 times (which really isn't that much compared to most people!) so I have a good idea of what you are getting yourself into. I look forward to hearing about your experience!

[brentpatty1]

There is some good xp at the end depending level range. good luck

[Kelavam]

So for anyone interested, we are on the Argo server. PM me if you have an interest in join in the choas and mayhem that is any quest I lead. :)

[Gkar]

So for anyone interested, we are on the Argo server. PM me if you have an interest in join in the choas and mayhem that is any quest I lead. :)

Do you consider it a spoiler to know that there is, for example, a weapon type that might be very important to have with you before you enter the quest? (For example, if in Von 6 the dragon had DR 15 to everything except electric weapons is that something you would have liked to know in advance?)

There is also one place where there is an action that you could take that would seem perfectly reasonable but will cost you 2 chests. There is no way to figure that out unless you on a different run try a different approach. Would a warning to "don't do A" or "please do A" be an acceptable hint in that case or would you want absolutely no spoilers even though its at least 50/50 that it could cost 2 chests?

[Kelavam]

Do you consider it a spoiler to know that there is, for example, a weapon type that might be very important to have with you before you enter the quest? (For example, if in Von 6 the dragon had DR 15 to everything except electric weapons is that something you would have liked to know in advance?)

There is also one place where there is an action that you could take that would seem perfectly reasonable but will cost you 2 chests. There is no way to figure that out unless you on a different run try a different approach. Would a warning to "don't do A" or "please do A" be an acceptable hint in that case or would you want absolutely no spoilers even though its at least 50/50 that it could cost 2 chests?

Those would be great suggestions after the first run, I would consider them spoilers prior to running the first time. Yes, we might miss stuff the first time through - losing 2 chests would suck every single time, but the first time through? I think it's more about learning and completion. And to be honest, there have been a few quests that I have run with a pug group after running several times with my guildies/core group that I learn something about the quest I did not know or discover. I am okay not knowing everything about a quest the first couples times through.

The discovery of the two chests in the inspired quarters where you rescue jeets.. Ran with quite a few groups and did not discover til I looked it up online that there are 2 chests. Not one person in any pug ever mentioned them (either did not know or did not care to get them).

I guess I am saying after a run or two I am more than open to suggestions. I would not begin to force everyone to run the same exact way I do whenever I run, just the first one, and upon clarification ahead of time. :)

[SaisMatters]

I would make a seperate thread in the Argo section (see what Phalaeo does) and advertise this. Set it up on a weekend. Make sure EVERYONE has up to 4 hours to do this and peeps that don't get discouraged easily. Get 14 people if you can, 12 peeps, plus two alts in case of no shows. and make sure everyone contribues resources to the healers--mana pots, lots and lots of scrolls, and cash.

good luck

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think you would fail. But that doesn't mean it woul dnot be fun.
In fact, I would love to come along. (on Thelanis or Argo) And would promise to keep my mouth shut.

[Wolja]

this is just uncalled for.
The OP is making a valid point and request. Dungeons and Dragons is all about exploration and discovery. He's just trying to bring that experience back to the game for himself and others.

Which I have no problem with. However nearly every single thread on solvers being cheats admit to using a computer to write letters, and probably spell check to, or a calculator to do maths or google to search for a job. That's cheating by the definition of these threads. Real life analogies work to show how in game desires smell of fanaticism.

However whatever rocks his boat works for me. How he guarantees someone doesn't use a solver even if it's written down on paper that 4x4 you do this. 5 x 5 etc. That is a solver. Not everyone does well at logic problems and can solve em without any aids.

[knightgf]

First time doing the shroud...let me just say I too, would have failed many, many times if I was doing it with a all-new group. Hell, I probably would have gotten frustrated and decided to not make greensteel if it was for that.. Hopefully this doesn't spoil anything(AKA potental spoiler alert) but if I were to rank the different parts of the shroud by difficulty, it would be:



Part 1: Hard
Part 2: Hard - Insane
Part 3: Hard
Part 4: Medium-Hard
Part 5: Hard - Insane

As many has said, it won't be easy. But just a heads-up: Depending on your party, some parts are just totally insane to do. Your previous experience in VoN may prove to be a bit useful...but thats all ill say.

[TeamUnicorn]

/wave

Hi Gab!!

[ShotByBothSides]

Good luck with this. One of the only things that bugs me is not always have been able to see and puzzle out new quests or raids for the first time without being shown what to do; when it is possible it is fantastic.

I recall very well when the Shroud first came out and it did not take weeks for groups to figure it out, sure there were a lot of failures, but each time a little more was learnt. Those groups did not know which were the optimal weapons, spells or tactics to use, so don’t feel pressed to be told and I am sure you can repeat what was done then. Nowadays players put LFMs up for 18-20 for the Shroud! When it came out it was normal to be running at much lower levels, and the game was significantly harder too, no ship buffs for a start.

I only wish I could wipe my memory clean and join you, for I missed out on the early exploratory Shroud runs, I bet they were mega fun.

P.S. Your comments Wolja are just unhelpful and don't belong in a very well written post and a good hearted thread. There is always one!

[Kelavam]

/wave

Hi Gab!!

Well hello there. No idea who you are in game. :)

[TeamUnicorn]

Well hello there. No idea who you are in game. :)

It's Axela!

[Kelavam]

It's Axela!

Hehe.. well hi there! Hope your trip was good!

With the name TeamUnicorn, I would never have guessed.

[Kelavam]

You never used a slide rule in Maths or asked a teacher for help? It would be good to have a maths brain.

You never used a dictionary or had a teacher mark your spelling? Again perfection is an art form I haven't mastered yet.

I could probably ask why you spell murder murder rather than morthor or mord cause it's changed over time through cheating or why you spell harbour wrong?

The point is in every way in every day from the day we are born we copy off others which is a form of cheat sheeting. You can pretend it doesn't happen but the reality of developmental psychology is if we didn't cheat we wouldn't learn. Learning it from someone else who learned it originally form a solver or someone else is using a cheat sheet.

Now some of us live in a world where there are shades of grey and really don't care if he wants to do it without a solver. More power to him. However I get annoyed when people pretend life isn't a form of cheating from day 1.

I have used a slide rule.. What's your point? I also started counting with my fingers. And having to use a dictionary or asked for help BEFORE you even made an attempt? You just wait for everyone to hand you everything and do not try first? The changes in spelling are cheating? Things do not grow and change over time? Everything changes over time. You are making very bad analogies.

I cannot ensure anyone will not use a solver. It's an honor system, and anyone who wants to join is welcome and I will trust them when they say "no spoilers will be used". If they cheat, that is on them, not on me. Yes, I will attempt before I look at any outside sources. I will learn what I can by myself.

You have your own ways of entertaining yourself, mine happen to include figuring some things out on my own. Yes, I had to be taught some things to get where I am in life; I had to be taught the basics of math before I could try it, but on that same note, it was fun, once those basics were in place, to apply them to new concepts BEFORE I asked for help if I was stumped.

I have no idea of what you call cheating, because your examples of things changing and growing being called cheating is beyond my definition.


cheat (cht)
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats
v.tr.
1. To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
2. To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
3. To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
4. To elude; escape: cheat death.
v.intr.
1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
3. Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
4. Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base.
n.
1. An act of cheating; a fraud or swindle.
2. One who cheats; a swindler.
3. A computer application, password, or disallowed technique used to advance to a higher skill level in a computer video game.
4. Law Fraudulent acquisition of another's property.
5. Botany An annual European species of brome grass (Bromus secalinus) widely naturalized in temperate regions.

[Wolja]

I have used a slide rule.. What's your point? I also started counting with my fingers. And having to use a dictionary or asked for help BEFORE you even made an attempt? You just wait for everyone to hand you everything and do not try first? The changes in spelling are cheating? Things do not grow and change over time? Everything changes over time. You are making very bad analogies.

I cannot ensure anyone will not use a solver. It's an honor system, and anyone who wants to join is welcome and I will trust them when they say "no spoilers will be used". If they cheat, that is on them, not on me. Yes, I will attempt before I look at any outside sources. I will learn what I can by myself.

You have your own ways of entertaining yourself, mine happen to include figuring some things out on my own. Yes, I had to be taught some things to get where I am in life; I had to be taught the basics of math before I could try it, but on that same note, it was fun, once those basics were in place, to apply them to new concepts BEFORE I asked for help if I was stumped.

I have no idea of what you call cheating, because your examples of things changing and growing being called cheating is beyond my definition.


cheat (cht)
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats
v.tr.
1. To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
2. To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
3. To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
4. To elude; escape: cheat death.
v.intr.
1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
3. Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
4. Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base.
n.
1. An act of cheating; a fraud or swindle.
2. One who cheats; a swindler.
3. A computer application, password, or disallowed technique used to advance to a higher skill level in a computer video game.
4. Law Fraudulent acquisition of another's property.
5. Botany An annual European species of brome grass (Bromus secalinus) widely naturalized in temperate regions.
Mate I'm not having a go at you rather the pedantic autodidact who keeps trying to pretend he /she's never used a cheat sheet, solver, in his life. And the other pedantic fool in other threads who keeps calling users of solver cheats.

However the definition I'm using is;

To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
You've seen grammar na'* get all het up because someone changed a rule of grammar. Same thing.

He / She and I learnt Maths through rote learning. A form of cheat sheeting, a definition meaning using an artificial aid, from about 6 mths of age when we started counting and through observation, solver, of others.

I certainly learnt spelling through my mother making me repeat through rote, solver she's giving me the answers initially, word after word after word. However now my kids spell mum mom through cheating sheeting off yankee TV shows. I may think it's wrong but I try not be a big enough arse to tell em they can't do that.

End of the day I'll say again I hope it works for you. I'm not having a go at you but rather started this before the pedant arrived saying there are issues in doing it as a virgin. Take a expert, aka a cheat sheet, the first few times.

[Kaytis]

As soon as I was flagged for shroud, I went in by myself to look around. That did not go well :-) But that would be a great place to start if you really want a fresh off the boat look at things, even if it only lasts about 60 seconds.

But here is the thing: you will be surprised how much you will continue to learn about the raid even after you run with experienced groups. Shroud is full of little details that make it one of the most interesting raids in the game, and for me personally, the most fun. After as many as 50 completions I was still learning new things I did not know about it. I suspect there may be more things yet to learn.

My recommendation: just go ahead and run it with PUGs or guildies. Finding 11 other people that are flagged and have not run it will be next to impossible anyway. It is a really fun raid and I think you will enjoy it either way.

Be sure to let your first group know that you have never run it before! They can make it that much more enjoyable for you.

[Kelavam]

The examples of using cheat sheets.. Parents find ways to teach their children, sometimes better than how they learned, sometimes the same.. But the point I was trying to make is that if you go back far enough, somoene figured all this out.. Letters, numbers, speech (and it's variants)...everything. I am not saying I do not use "cheats" in real life, nor has anyone else. But there are various things in R/L and in game that people can opt not to cheat at.

If that is your definition of cheating, then sure... But am I going to try to do this without a cheat sheet? Without someone telling me how to do things? Telling me all about the quests? Absolutely. Will I resort to "cheats" after a run or two? Probably.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Kalevam. If you want to run Shroud without any guide, do it. But keep in mind, you guys will have a lot of repeats before you halfway figure out even part 1. If you guys can handle that level of frustration (way more than with a non-raid quest) then by all means go for it.

[Matuse]

Part 1 is pretty ridiculously easy. It shouldn't take more than 2 runs to get it completed. Obviously they won't be doing it the "ideal" way, but failing part 1 is pretty challenging. I was in a group where right after the second portal there was a router hiccup somewhere, and 6 people all disconnected at once, 3 others all died during the 30-40 second delay lagstorm that followed. The remaining 3 managed to beat the section by themselves.

[skunk]

Just have to say, is on Agro, good luck to you.

I remember the first dragon runs we did as a guild when it first came out. 15 hours to finish part 5, toon swapping, going out and coming in, people leaving, going to bed, and we still were in it when they logged in the next morning.

(not suggesting anyone do that) I get your point, Its fun to learn and do on your own.

If you send skunk a tell, i'll send you some pots and rez scrolls if you would like.

Definitely do things the way you want. I am also sure you can help people flag, and then get the group to run it, it would be a good way to get it done.

Good luck, and hope you enjoy this. Keep us informed here.

[der_kluge]

Failing part 1 is definitely doable if you're not prepared for it.

I would say - just do the raid. Tell them you're a newtimer, and you'll get some special treatment. People will be sure to point out to you what your assignment is.


Thing is - with Shroud, the quest is complicated enough that it will be a learning experience even if you are surrounded by people who know what they are doing. You'll still learn a lot, and I think you'll still get the no-spoiler experience, and a completion to boot.

Doing it with first-timers will both be an invitation to disaster, and a boatload of frustration.

[Rinnaldo]

I would have loved to have run it the first time with 11 others who'd never run it. I agree with you completely about spoilers and wanting to really learn what a quest is about on my own, even if it means failing a bunch of times. I went into the Shroud on my own a few days prior to joining a group, to see what I could see. I got the run-down from an NPC, who at least told me an outline of what I'd be doing, and that helped a lot.

So, a few weeks ago, my wife and I joined a Shroud PUG that said "All welcome!" We were both new to it and it turned out, there were about 5 of us who'd never run it before.

Someone called on me to do something, and I was like, "Uh... I'm not sure how..." And he kindly explained to me what he needed me to do - though, not exactly why. On a later part, they let me try something because they knew I was new. I failed, but I thought it was really cool of them to let me fail.

Since then, in the last couple of weeks, I've run it a few more times. This last time, the group failed, and I learned far more about it than in the couple successful runs I'd been in! As we failed a section (repeatedly), it became clearer and clearer what was going on, so I still got to experience that awesome sense of exploration. Now, I'd been clued in a little the first time, but didn't totally get it. Failing that last time really made me much more confident about how the quest works. We failed, no one got angry, I learned a lot, and to me, it was more fun than being swept through it the first time. :)

[countfitz]

Those would be great suggestions after the first run, I would consider them spoilers prior to running the first time. Yes, we might miss stuff the first time through - losing 2 chests would suck every single time, but the first time through? I think it's more about learning and completion. :)

Your first time is not going to be about learning AND completion. Your first 5-10 times will be about learning. If you do it how you are suggesting, I'd be really impressed if you finished after your 5th wipe.

I totally wish I could have found a group like this my first time. In fact, I capped and had watched youtube walkthroughs, etc. etc. a bunch before I was courageous enough to because of all the hype. Then I realized that, once you know it, it is the easiest quest (probably cause you'll end up doing it hundreds of times). Hilariously, I had flagged for ToD long before I did Shroud because of the forums, the "failed Shrould" stories, etc.

By the way, not to spoil it...

But a failed Shroud can be a GOOD thing in a sense too.

As the raid mechanic stops you from running it more than once every three days (not a spoiler I hope) you actually benefit as a "newb" to run and get as many chests as possible without completing. Almost all runs actually have ddoors for people to leave and NOT complete the raid at the end just for this reason, so you should have fun and it won't be a waste.

FINALLY:

NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU WANT TO DO THIS WITHOUT SPOILERS

DO NOT CRAFT WITHOUT A CRAFTING PLANNER!!!!!!

Sorry, that is one place, no matter how fun this will be, DON'T! You will spend MONTHS hating yourself if you do this, possibly quit the game.

[Kelavam]

Your first time is not going to be about learning AND completion. Your first 5-10 times will be about learning. If you do it how you are suggesting, I'd be really impressed if you finished after your 5th wipe.

I totally wish I could have found a group like this my first time. In fact, I capped and had watched youtube walkthroughs, etc. etc. a bunch before I was courageous enough to because of all the hype. Then I realized that, once you know it, it is the easiest quest (probably cause you'll end up doing it hundreds of times). Hilariously, I had flagged for ToD long before I did Shroud because of the forums, the "failed Shrould" stories, etc.

By the way, not to spoil it...

But a failed Shroud can be a GOOD thing in a sense too.

As the raid mechanic stops you from running it more than once every three days (not a spoiler I hope) you actually benefit as a "newb" to run and get as many chests as possible without completing. Almost all runs actually have ddoors for people to leave and NOT complete the raid at the end just for this reason, so you should have fun and it won't be a waste.

FINALLY:

NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU WANT TO DO THIS WITHOUT SPOILERS

DO NOT CRAFT WITHOUT A CRAFTING PLANNER!!!!!!

Sorry, that is one place, no matter how fun this will be, DON'T! You will spend MONTHS hating yourself if you do this, possibly quit the game.

Good, sound advice. And no crafting will be done our first run, of this I am pretty sure. That is something I have read a lot about; people making mistakes in crafting and rage quitting and rage cursing and basically hating the game as the start running through the shroud again.

I know a little about Harry - you cannot read the forums and go completely without gaining SOME knowledge. I think I know the best harry beater, but to be honest, I will not share this with my core group unless they ask. I have avoided any forum conversations where I felt there would be spoilers to any quest I am doing, but there are random mentions of the shroud in many of the threads.

And I have no dellusions of completion my first x times through. I suppose my statement was not as well thought out as well as it could have been. Learning first, completion next.

[Raiar]

However nearly every single thread on solvers being cheats admit to using a computer to write letters, and probably spell check to, or a calculator to do maths or google to search for a job. That's cheating by the definition of these threads. Real life analogies work to show how in game desires smell of fanaticism.
When someone needs to solve a math problem because they need the answer, they'll use a calculator. When someone solves a math problem solely for the fun of figuring it out, they'll do it on their own. (And yes, there are math geeks out there who do that.) Similarly, there are people who write out letters longhand because they enjoy the beauty of that written form, even though they'll use a computer and email when they want efficiency of distribution instead. (I can't imagine anyone who would job-hunt for the fun of it, so I think that final analogy with job-hunting and Google simply doesn't fit.) The difference is in whether the goal is the end result or whether the goal is enjoyment of the activity itself. From what I've heard, the shroud has some good rewards, so many people run it with their goal being the end result of getting those rewards, but it's also part of a game. The game's whole purpose is enjoyment of the activity. Some people play it, even its raids, for the adventure.



I would say - just do the raid. Tell them you're a newtimer, and you'll get some special treatment. People will be sure to point out to you what your assignment is.

Thing is - with Shroud, the quest is complicated enough that it will be a learning experience even if you are surrounded by people who know what they are doing. You'll still learn a lot, and I think you'll still get the no-spoiler experience, and a completion to boot.
How do you fit "People will be sure to point out to you what your assignment is." along with "I think you'll still get the no-spoiler experience"? Being told what to do is the spoiler. And yes, he would still be learning that way, but would not be figuring it out. Wanting to do it without spoilers is about figuring it out, not about completion. Completion is simply the final reward after figuring it out.



Am I in the minority? Is running a "no spoiler" shroud going to be pointless? Am I deluding myself into thinking I can find enough people willing to try this? Is there anyone out there with this frame of mind?
I doubt you're in the minority of new players, (or if you are it's likely to be a fairly large minority), but new players who can run it but haven't already run it many times are the minority of players looking for Shroud groups. Yes, going at a newcomer's pace would be frustrating for an experienced player, but I'm guessing most new players would prefer it. (I'm basing this completely on content from other games, though. The level 3 in my sig is my first and so far only DDO character. It's going to be a long time before I reach the Shroud.)



My theory is that there was a time when these quests were unknown to everyone. When the game was first released, when a new update comes out - there are new quests that people have to learn initially. And some might have considered this a chore, but I have to imagine some players thought like I did and enjoyed every minute of every failure and success in the process of learning the quests.
That's the whole reason so many players like to be ready to jump on any newly released content as soon as its made available. What makes "brand new" content special (as opposed to simply content that that particular player hasn't run before) is the excitement of being able to figure it out. Nearly everyone accepts that players love being able to attack fresh content. It's why there's a big surge in activity after any new release. Yet a lot of these same players seem surprised when those who come along later want to do the same thing.

[JollySwagMan]

Sounds like fun, best of luck to you!

[Thesoulgazer]

As the others have said, with a like minded group, no problem.


But with several vets who are running this for GS ingreds, trouble starts to brew. Those guys would need the patience of statues to deal with the number of points where everything can get messed up.

[PNellesen]

FINALLY:

NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU WANT TO DO THIS WITHOUT SPOILERS

DO NOT CRAFT WITHOUT A CRAFTING PLANNER!!!!!!

Sorry, that is one place, no matter how fun this will be, DON'T! You will spend MONTHS hating yourself if you do this, possibly quit the game.

+1

It's one thing to learn by failure in the raid. It's quite another to discover that you made a mistake at the last step of your wonderful Tier III weapon and have no way of reversing the process to try again, and have wasted all the large mats it took WEEKS to gather

*shudders at the thought*

[Arius]

hate to be a nay-sayer but just wanted to caution you that I tried running no-spoiler parties in the past. You typically get one or two deceptive people in the party that have actually done the quest a million times before and want to pass themselves off as "geniuses" by solving all the puzzles "legitimately". Great concept, I agree with your vision and would gladly join you (if I had not done it). All the best with it.

[Kelavam]

hate to be a nay-sayer but just wanted to caution you that I tried running no-spoiler parties in the past. You typically get one or two deceptive people in the party that have actually done the quest a million times before and want to pass themselves off as "geniuses" by solving all the puzzles "legitimately". Great concept, I agree with your vision and would gladly join you (if I had not done it). All the best with it.

And this is something that I thought of as well, and I have seen it in the past with a few people that have joined a "no spoiler" pug that I had started. I stopped doing those because of that reason; I wait til I have run it several times (regardless of completion) before I try again with a PUG group.

As much as I would love to run a complete new-player shroud, I realize that getting that many people together who have never run it is going to be rough as it is. No-spoiler does not mean, to me, that everyone has to be new to the shroud, but can mean that people are will to tag along and help but let those who are new to the quest make the choices.

I have run with others who had the same mindset - if I had run a quest that they had not, I pretended I was new as well (though they knew I had run it already) and just kept my mouth shut, offered no suggestions, and just helped them how they wanted to get it done. So I know it's hard, but it IS possible.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, and I welcome anyone willing to follow the no spoiler requirement.. If you wanted to run just for fun (since people see a 5-10 run with failure each time) on one of them, you are welcome!

[IWIronheart]

Hear ye, hear ye. Due to nature of the posts in this thread, it has now been closed. Please remember to stick to the community guidelines when posting in the forums.

IWIronheart.