Raid party construction doesn't have to be 2 arcanes, 2 divines, 1 bard and 7 melee. [Archive]

haku-ba

05-25-2011, 11:37 PM

I think it is still a little early for many people to have fully adjusted to the changes brought to casting since U9 Mel. Especially considering the quick change that was put in with U9.1 to tone things down a little, who knows what might happen in U9.2!?

I wouldn't be surprised if Turbine tweaks raids so that only ONE divine/arcane DoT of each type can be active on red/purple names at a time, or something like that. Particularly if the forum threads about how 'overpowered' casters continue to be stay stuck on Page 1.

The main problem with casters as a raid leader, arcane ones especially, is that you never know what you are going to get. This is a factor when putting together a raid like eDQ and eDragon I would imagine. You know you are going to need a beat down, will the casters be up to it?

In guild runs I would have no problem letting everyone bring their caster, as we have been doing in epics recently, but in PuGs I would be a little more hesitant unless I know the toon. If you stick to a formula that has worked for a long time with it is hard to trust any new method when you are pugging it.

Maugrim101

05-26-2011, 12:09 AM

I don't lead any raids but I'd say the main reason things havn't altered as far as your average PUG goes is that the old composition of 2 casters, 2 Divine, 7 melee and a Bard still completes fairly easy and with a minimum of fuss (Yes, even in most random PUGS).

I guess it's human nature to not bother messing with what already works. The content isn't difficult so the need to "invent" a new strategy just isn't there for your average PUG raid leader.

altrocks

05-26-2011, 12:13 AM

I don't know about other servers, but on Khyber, especially within the last few weeks, we've had a huge surge of newly capped players in many raids and starting to slip in to the easier epics. This makes me hesitant to mess with any group compositions that I already know will work. I've seen more failed shroud runs going on in the last month that I've seen in the previous year. It's a little crazy. So some of us are being pretty cautious. I know that I mostly run with my guild and guild alliances/friends, and when it comes to that we don't worry too much about who's playing what class as long as we have some healing and plenty of DPS (whether caster, ranged or melee).

There have been a few adventurous PUGs out there that throw up an LFM and take whoever shows up, and yes, usually they're fine, but that 2% of epic fails mentioned by a previous post is slowly creeping towards the 10% range, it seems. However, I've also seen PUG epics that take all kinds of weird combinations and do awesomely. We had 2 clerics, a FvS, a ranger, a bard and a barbarian for an epic Big Top not long ago. I was one of the clerics and they told me not to worry about healing. So, I just kept my aura and bursts going and blew all my SP on Harm and Divine Punishment on Malicia. It worked out very nicely.

I think group composition will eventually become more relaxed, but it's a big transition for people who have been playing for years to suddenly go, "Okay, I'll take 7 casters, a melee, a rogue, 2 healers and a bard for VoD," when the possibility for epic failure is so high.

My $0.02

Shade

05-26-2011, 12:29 AM

The issue isn't so much class balance anymore...

It's more that, your averagely played/geared caster brings a lot less to most raids then your averagely played/geared melee.. Assuming you have the requisit 1 to perform the basic functions like buffs and maybe knock/dd depending on the raid. These are functions that still don't stack.. Where as near everything a melee can provide does stack. Providing solid nuke/cc abilities on the other hand, is an extremely variable thing where theres no definable average...

So my ideal raid group is actually still only 1 divine, 1 arcane, 1 bard and 9 melee heh.

That said, I have actaully changed my basic rules for pug raids for u9, I'll take up to 2 random casters instead of 1.. And often 3 as long as 1 is from a solid guild or I otherwise know is a good player. I've also never really limited the amount of divine like some groups do, take them all the same as melee.. As at the very worst, they can usually at least keep themself alive and raise dead, which is far more then i can say for most casters...

The other thing is, it's difficult to qualify a caster..

You can send a melee a tell and say, hey got tier3 gs weapons.. And then you know they at least put some work into that character, and thus are probably decent dps, at least vs a mostly stationary boss.
VS a caster.. Gear has less effect on their performance, its much more skill based. So I could ask if they have say a T3 gs sp item, but having it or not wouldnt mean much.

weddingly

05-26-2011, 12:37 AM

ive been on lots of pure arcane only quests/raids (mages plus 1 bard) and basically everyone has at least 2 summons (sometimes 3). on raids that means we have an army of over 30+ attackers and there is no way in hell any boss or enemy can withstand 12 capped arcanes & max buffed minions. we basically squish EVERYTHING. INSTANTLY. then we stand around and compare suits and make nice fireworks to see who has the most colourful spells. meanwhile ur summons go off and frolic under the stars chasing whatever unfortunate creature happens to respawn. ah! this is the essence of DDO, dancing houri casters, purple and pink robes of deathblock, Weird and Banshee randomly casting everywhere under showers of acid rain and ice storm.... truly magical way to end all raids and quests.

Shade

05-26-2011, 12:42 AM

ive been on lots of pure arcane only quests/raids (mages plus 1 bard) and basically everyone has at least 2 summons (sometimes 3).

The only way to get 2 summons currently is either:
palemaster
or
using very very rare epic clickies like the wolf whistle

Im not sure how you get 3.

So I really doubt you've ever managed to get a full raid group where "everyone" can do that.

And, unless your running like titan normal, summons are incredibly weak and tend to die very fast in raids... I bet you could throw 10,000 of the toughest summon around at horoth and he would crush every single one without a scratch.

altrocks

05-26-2011, 12:46 AM

*snip*

The other thing is, it's difficult to qualify a caster..

You can send a melee a tell and say, hey got tier3 gs weapons.. And then you know they at least put some work into that character, and thus are probably decent dps, at least vs a mostly stationary boss.
VS a caster.. Gear has less effect on their performance, its much more skill based. So I could ask if they have say a T3 gs sp item, but having it or not wouldnt mean much.

You can qualify a caster very easily, especially with MyDDO (mostly) working now. You ask about their DC's for the important spells for that raid/quest, you check if they have GS SP goggles, a bauble, a dreamspitter, a CC dagger, anything that actually matters to the goals of the quest.

For Savants, it's even easier. "What's your Max SP and do you have pots?" That's all you need to know. If they have enough to nuke their way through the quest, they can do their job. If the Wizard has a 41 enchantment DC, they can hold/dance/sleep/hypno just fine in pretty much anything.

The only difference is that you might not be able to use a catch-all question that hits all of them.

As a side note, I've seen PLENTY of melee with min2's that would have been about as useful if they were swinging a rusty longsword. Barbs that are AC builds, tempests swinging greataxes, all kinds of stuff. But no one asks about that until you're halfway through the quest and wondering why that half-orc is standing there with a tower shield. So, maybe those questions don't really mean as much as some people think. The most important question to ask someone who wants to join your PUG is usually, "Can you follow directions?" If they can, and everyone else in the group can, there's almost never a problem.

Shade

05-26-2011, 01:07 AM

You can qualify a caster very easily, especially with MyDDO (mostly) working now. You ask about their DC's for the important spells for that raid/quest, you check if they have GS SP goggles, a bauble, a dreamspitter, a CC dagger, anything that actually matters to the goals of the quest.
My point was, caster gear has very little to do with if someone is a good caster or not. I could play an ungeared 28point caster and out perform 90% of fully geared TR'd casters simply due to skill and knowledge of the game.

For Savants, it's even easier. "What's your Max SP and do you have pots?" That's all you need to know. If they have enough to nuke their way through the quest, they can do their job. If the Wizard has a 41 enchantment DC, they can hold/dance/sleep/hypno just fine in pretty much anything.
IMO any caster that needs SP pots on a raid is bad player. As is a savant who has a very high SP total, as MT feats are poor selections on savants. Enchantment DC can be a big factor in say chronoscope, but other raids? rarely matters for the important tasks.

As a side note, I've seen PLENTY of melee with min2's that would have been about as useful if they were swinging a rusty longsword.

Barbs that are AC builds, tempests swinging greataxes, all kinds of stuff.
Guess its possible, differnet players will have different experiences. While I've met tons of barbs who play badly enoug hto forget to rage.. Most at least have the basics like power attack and a bit of strength, and that combined with power attack, is imo, more then what your average caster can bring to the table.

But no one asks about that until you're halfway through the quest and wondering why that half-orc is standing there with a tower shield.
I tend to ask the moment they step in the raid, i'm kind of a jerk that way ;p

So, maybe those questions don't really mean as much as some people think. The most important question to ask someone who wants to join your PUG is usually, "Can you follow directions?" If they can, and everyone else in the group can, there's almost never a problem.
Disagree. Everyone who signs up and i guess at least understands english will tell you yes to that question, regardless of whether they really can or not.

If everyone answered 100% honestly, yea sure.. But they dont, and I find people are less likely to lie about what equipment they have, versus if they are a complete moron or not.

I realise many players who have t3 gs weapons sometimes may not be very good either, but it does at least serve the same purpose as your question.. confirming that they can at least understand english and respond to basic questions. Tho the equpiment qualififer lets them possibly link there items, which shows you they not only have that equip, but are smart enough to know how to link it, and that you may care to see it. If they responded to your question with such links, that might be considered a bit rude and unhelpful.

The equpiment qualifer also sometimes gets answer like "No sorry im still working on my T3 GS, but I know the raid and think I can still contribute well on this character" .. Generally players who respond like this are very much worth taking along, and I always accept those.

altrocks

05-26-2011, 01:28 AM

Disagree. Everyone who signs up and i guess at least understands english will tell you yes to that question, regardless of whether they really can or not.

If everyone answered 100% honestly, yea sure.. But they dont, and I find people are less likely to lie about what equipment they have, versus if they are a complete moron or not.

I realise many players who have t3 gs weapons sometimes may not be very good either, but it does at least serve the same purpose as your question.. confirming that they can at least understand english and respond to basic questions. Tho the equpiment qualififer lets them possibly link there items, which shows you they not only have that equip, but are smart enough to know how to link it, and that you may care to see it. If they responded to your question with such links, that might be considered a bit rude and unhelpful.

The equpiment qualifer also sometimes gets answer like "No sorry im still working on my T3 GS, but I know the raid and think I can still contribute well on this character" .. Generally players who respond like this are very much worth taking along, and I always accept those.

Every once in a while, I get a response like "I know the quest and run it dozens of times." instead of them just saying "yes, I can." That lets me know a great deal, especially when a certain quest or raid might be run several different ways. How do they know what tactics are going to be used before they're even accepted to the party? For most raids, really, it's not a huge issue. Reaver, Shroud, VoD are all pretty much done one way, just because they're simple. Others, though, like ToD or even Abbot, I've had people rush in and screw things up for the whole party because they THINK they know what they're doing, but don't listen.

I do take your point about people just saying "yes" and not really meaning it but most of the time I've noticed that just asking the question seems to get people in the mind set to actually listen and not just crank up the music and set their toon on cruise control.

I still think T3 GS isn't a very good qualifier, though. That's probably just a difference of opinion. Anyone can grind mats from Shroud and AH to make it and never have run any other raid in the game. Maybe they thought GH flagging for Reaver was too boring, or DQ flagging was too hard at-level, or they never visited Amrath or the Sub because they were too busy grinding GS mats to make that uber Sundering Ooze Guard khopesh.

Jiirix

05-26-2011, 01:41 AM

I applyed for a hound-pug two days ago on my capped cleric, a guildy of mine was allready in group on his fighter. The LFM said "send tell" so I wrote to the leader: "Hello, I want to join on my caster-cleric, 400 hp 1800 sp." And he replied: "We have two healers and one caster, I need only tanks now." Ok, no problem. Wished him and my guildy all the best and moved on. Later the evening my guildy told me how the run failed. The dedicated "healer" had used only single target spells on the chewtoy and the puppies got no healing and died. When my guildy came to the middle to check what was going wrong there was one puppy left.

You don't need a balanced party, you need some people who know the raid and you need the others to listen. That's all imho.

protokon

05-26-2011, 01:45 AM

bobbryan2

05-26-2011, 01:47 AM

Well... I've been on both sides... I've played a savant that can give melees 2-3 minutes of hitting.. and still take aggro long before I run out of sp. So that says as long as the fight is over in less than 10 minutes or so... I'm putting more dps out than any of the melees.

But I've also played with worthless casters... So I'll gladly take an awesome sorc over any melee in most any quest... but I will take a melee over a caster if I have no idea about their abilities. Casters just require too much skill for the average pugger.

theKman

05-26-2011, 01:48 AM

For my part, im not quite running Raids or Epics Yet, but when I see one up I want to join, I start with, "hey, im fairly new to this Epic, would you be happy to have me in?"
Ill admit im not super geared, but im not gonna get geared without being able to join these groups or have some help in a quest or two.
So I think it tends to work a bit both ways.

Having said that, I have seen a variety of combinations in many different raids/quests, for me, as long as the group is having fun.. im good.

budalic

05-26-2011, 01:57 AM

If the Wizard has a 41 enchantment DC, they can hold/dance/sleep/hypno just fine in pretty much anything.

IMO, only quest in which ench DC's matter is eChrono, post-u9. I've found that necromacy is much more useful, generally, in everything else, since it's faster to just clean out trash that way. I'm playing pale master, and i'm ditching sf:enchantment feats for shield mastery at the moment (via Fred - **** 3-day cooldown).

Regarding arcanes, I've found out that biggest issue actually is aggro managment - I had to limit my DPS in tod part3 since I took Jailer aggro in part1, in vampire (-25% threat) form. If arcane has 2 new dots - they are good enough for shroud dps - better than any melee, actually. But in tanked raids, ...

EDIT: Regarding gear, I think best thing to link in raids would be Eardweller, or Amrath cold/electric sashes. If arcane has those, it's pretty much guarantied he knows what to use. If he has only glacial assault set, and thinks it's fine, then...

fuzzy1guy

05-26-2011, 02:05 AM

I still see plenty of groups taking melee only and they have 1 caster.

I still see plenty of lfms with stuff like MUST HAVE 40 DC. Not just chrono either. Still .... there... but i can sorta almost understand it. casters are op. until you want one?

Tons of lfms are still the standard (old) party layout.

Makes me appreciate guild runs now that we just take anyone and get it done quick. Only rule is at least 1 healer. And even that gets bent now and then.

Whatever the current dead horse argument here on the forums are... Has not changed the game one bit really.

Dysmetria

05-26-2011, 02:17 AM

As the title says:

Raid party construction doesn't have to be 2 arcanes, 2 divines, 1 bard and 7 melee.

Discuss.I don't understand why there needs to be any discussion. If you do not like the way raid groups are being set up, make your own just the way you want them.

Shade

05-26-2011, 06:59 AM

Every once in a while, I get a response like "I know the quest and run it dozens of times." instead of them just saying "yes, I can." That lets me know a great deal, especially when a certain quest or raid might be run several different ways. How do they know what tactics are going to be used before they're even accepted to the party?
Just a difference in what we actually want in our raids I guess. Perrsonally I never care if someone has done a raid before or not, if anything.. I find that boring, and sometimes annoying as I often run things a little different then the accept "norms", and they might expect that.

I value a skilled player willing to work together as a team far beyond anything else.. I really don't care if a player has ran a raid a hundred times before. I'd be more inclined to take the better player, who has never done it. It's always much more exciting for them, and imo that really adds something to the raid party.

If anything, when ppl respond to my qualiications with "lol what, ive done done it before many times!" , I declined them. I know for a fact it's quite easy to pike your way thru a dozen completions and never contribute anything, so it doesn't prove much to me other then they are a good piker, all it shows is they disregarded my question, and tried to force their own views on why they should be let in upon me.

Which is fine and all, not saying your way of doing this is any worse.. Just different.

I do take your point about people just saying "yes" and not really meaning it but most of the time I've noticed that just asking the question seems to get people in the mind set to actually listen and not just crank up the music and set their toon on cruise control.
Your put quite a lot of weigh into what your question does.. Not sure it holds that kind of powers.

I still think T3 GS isn't a very good qualifier, though. That's probably just a difference of opinion. Anyone can grind mats from Shroud and AH to make it and never have run any other raid in the game. Maybe they thought GH flagging for Reaver was too boring, or DQ flagging was too hard at-level, or they never visited Amrath or the Sub because they were too busy grinding GS mats to make that uber Sundering Ooze Guard khopesh.

That's my point exactly.. I really actaully respect players a lot for putting in the time to grind out there shroud weapons before trying to move up into tougher raids, especially epics. How many times they've done isn't going to effect the outcome of the raid as long as they pay attention to direction. How good or bad their equipment is, certianly can in.. In certain raids.

And while people certainly can make poor characters with t3 gs weapons.. imo most put them on their best characters.. So if nothing else, you can be sure your at least getting their main or alt that they feel worthy, and not some fresh ungeared lvl20 they never play or care to equip they just wanna pike along for some easy loot.

Sure for your really noob raids I can easily solo 99% of the tasks required to win like reaver/titan/ or non epic/elite versions of various raids, I drop my qualifiers down.. For shroud I generally only qualify maybe half the raid, and just ask if they have a DR breaker. Not because I actually require anyone to have one... My acceptable responses are yes, no, and whats a dr breaker?
Just more of a check if they can actualy respond to a question at all. Oddly a good amount of players still manage to fail that qualifier.

And yea I don't know anyone who's made an ooze sunder weapon as their first t3 gs.. But there actaully pretty useful weapons imo, at least in certain areas.

Scortius

05-26-2011, 07:03 AM

The only way to get 2 summons currently is either:
palemaster
or
using very very rare epic clickies like the wolf whistle

Im not sure how you get 3.

So I really doubt you've ever managed to get a full raid group where "everyone" can do that.

There seems to be no practical limit on the number of black puddings that can ooze along with you. But, yeah, 30 + attackers would be pretty hard to arrange. And most of them would just be sludge.

Palantyr

05-26-2011, 07:20 AM

Not much to discuss as I see it. You could shortman every raid in the game before U9, at least with the upper tier of players the "standard" raid make up was never a golden rule anyway. PUG raids were prone to the make up as it was generally safe and effective group composition. They will probably still be prone to that make up a quite a while longer. Changing something as fundamental as the classic DDO raid group class breakdown is something that will sink in majority of the playerbase very slowly, if it ever really sinks in at all.

NaturalHazard

05-26-2011, 07:24 AM

Often i dont get more than 2 casters and 2 cleric/fs join, I will often take more than 2 of each but I guess that a lot of casters and divines are so busy soloing or casters epic scroll farming that they cant be bothered to raid?

MeliCat

05-26-2011, 07:33 AM

I don't understand why there needs to be any discussion. If you do not like the way raid groups are being set up, make your own just the way you want them.

Oh I do. Regularly. But I'm always willing to listen and learn. And still being a bit green it is wise for me to do so. I am very grateful to some of the extreme quality people and players who have been kind enough to respond in this thread. And I suspect others are finding the discussion interesting too.

Still reading... while in an all caster shroud... using our summons to break crystals in part 2 .... lol ... pugged...

rabbit512

05-26-2011, 07:35 AM

the class makeup is entirely irrelevant to a raid groups success IMO. it's all about judging the strengths of the players who join your group. It's a very difficult skill to learn, and most people fall back on an exact party makeup of X classes as a crutch for poor leadership abilities.

can't stand seeing shroud LFMs up with plenty of space in the group and the classes left off are rogues/rangers/monks.

could not agree more. i lead raids quite often, and have found this to be true. it may be a different story with epics as some are suggesting, but at least with the regular content i wholeheartedly agree.

Eladiun

05-26-2011, 09:07 AM

The only way to get 2 summons currently is either:
palemaster
or
using very very rare epic clickies like the wolf whistle

Im not sure how you get 3.

Festival cookies

In_Like_Flynn

05-26-2011, 09:19 AM

MeliCat

05-26-2011, 10:24 AM

This post is one of many like it over the years. What strikes is that the make-up of the raid is different each time.

At one time Bards were gimp. Rangers too. Paladins were excluded for a time, as were Barbarians. This is just the latest trend.

I'll be on my porch, in a rocker, yelling at you kids to get off my quest!

:) This is awesome!

When I started this... I was just curious because from the small time I have been here (yes, a bit past the f2p influx) I can see just one of the shifts that someone was complaining about. In fact it wasn't until a few idle comments at the start of this thread and the other linked to that I wondered... but now you've stated in bluntly... :) :D

I have however appreciated the tips on ways to build good raid parties right at this moment of time...

So much is down to the individual player and build ... and if you know them as has been said.

Talon_Moonshadow

05-26-2011, 10:24 AM

2 Arcanes?! I though the limit was only one! :p

Talon_Moonshadow

05-26-2011, 10:41 AM

IMO, there should not need to be hardly any special party makeup to complete a raid.

If you want to use current raid tactics, some raids require a main tank to hold agro. And at least a healer for the main tank.

It helps to have a second healer.

But every chars should be able to damage and kill monsters.
So it seems to me that the rest of the party could be made up of any class of char.

running out of mana would be a consideration. Arcanes will run dry way before most raids could be completed.

And I've seen prt 1 of tht Shroud failed because of a lack of DPS. Although I think the only real reason for failure is failing to kill Portal Keepers....so it may not be accurate to blame lack of DPS there.

However, I do think most raids can be completed by 7+ bad melee guys more easily than by 7+ bad casters...

And most casters (even my own) are not that impressive to me.

But for those who haven't noticed: I would take any party into any quest and give it a try. I don't play perma death, and IMO the only person who should be scared of a bad PUG is a healer who is scared to lose too many pots for no good reason.

TheDjinnFor

05-26-2011, 10:58 AM

Raid party construction doesn't have to be 2 arcanes, 2 divines, 1 bard and 7 melee. I'm often happy just taking the first 12 people to hit up my shroud or hound. I'm more selective in eDQ, VoD, and ToD, because arcanes don't really have very useful roles there. In Shroud, it's all about dealing the best DPS: arcanes do that. In VoD/ToD, it's about dealing less DPS than the hate tank while being able to survive a beating. With that the case, I'd rather bring along a pug melee, who will have more hp than the average pug caster.

Well-geared, well-played Evoker Archmage Wizards (when I calculated it out, could be wrong) can hit 1036 DPS (post U9) for just 34.6 spellpoints per second (assuming a triple-stacked niacs biting and eladar's electric, as well as other things). Assuming you give them the time to set up the triple stack, they do about 55% of Harry's health in pt 4 on normal for just 2000 sp in less than a minute. Pale Masters are lower, of course, and sorcerors are higher, but that's a nice little average.

Well-geared, well-played arcanes, however, don't ever seem to PuG. I recall bringing in 4 PuG wizards into a normal Shroud last weekend; it will suffice to say that pt 1 went slow, pt 2 required us to prep, pt 4 we barely won (with just three left alive after the end of the second round, and 3 of the 4 dead arcanes having more than 50% of their sp left at this time), and pt 5 had many close calls. I'm an impatient shroud leader, however, and I didn't feel like waiting around for another 20 minutes for a perfect PuG (it was a slow day it seemed) so I just gave the solo healer some majors and we started.

If the Arcanes are not using almost their entire blue bar in between shrines in Shroud post U9 (with the exception of pt 3, of course) they are doing something wrong. Spam some force spells at the portals while you are waiting for mobs to spawn. If your DCs are too low to just insta-kill everything in one cast in pt 2, spam wail + mass hold + symbol spells + power words to clear the trash faster, and if you're not on crystal or ele, pick a slow-moving lieutenant and kill him solo while everyone else is 'prepping'. Burn all your mana in pt 4 of the shroud in the first round, since if it drags on for longer than that you might get a meteor swarm in the face. Do the same in pt 5, because even if your OOM in the first minute you've probably done 35+% of his max health in damage already.

The main reasons why melees are popular in raids is:

-They have enough HP to survive boss aggro while standing still (so as to allow other arcanes and melees to hit the boss)
-Because they can stand still, they can group together for heals
-Healing is more efficient and easier to do when massed on a tight-knit group
-Therefore, you must bring along enough melees to be able to do so.

In DQ, if the arcanes aggro the queen, she'll just cleave through the mass of melees and start destroying the casters in the back ranks. In shroud, if you don't have 6 melees to surround Harry (or 4 really really good ones), a caster pulling aggro is going to take a meteor swarm to the face (and, if you can't maintain an effective surround in pt 5, all of the melees you brought along are going to lose most of their dps following around harry as some arcane kites him around). In ToD, if the arcane can't survive aggro, he'll screw the raid over if he aggros sully or horoth (same with VoD). And so on.

maddmatt70

05-26-2011, 10:58 AM

The dynanmics of many raids is that only certain classes benefit from the loot. The tower is a great example of a raid where the clerics,fvs,wiz, and sorc benefit less from the loot and/or it is alot easier to get teh caster rings then it is to get the ravager/shintao/encrusted that all the melee seek. In the abbot it is the other issue melee need that raid gear less so you see tons of spell casters in abbot raids.

The shroud does not matter it really is get a bunch of bodies. I often pug 8-9 spots for a shroud run from the lfm and take whatever wants to join. The demon queen epic it is nice to have at least 2 healers and 4 melee so the queen is adequately surrounded and you have healing reduncacy, but the other 6 spots can be whatever (although if you do not have a haster make sure somebody has haste clickies and somebody can kite/aggro the archers). Epic dragon having a bard is nice for fascinating cc so I try to get that. The rest of the party can be whatever although if you do not have wizard/sorc you need to generally have more healers. At a minimum is 3 healer/wiz/sorc spots but can have far more.

morticianjohn

05-26-2011, 11:16 AM

I generally take the first 11 when I start a PuG raid. The exceptions are if we've got ~10 people and people already in the party are begging for something. I generally give the people what they want. Often we'll have 3-4 arcanes and someone will start clamoring for some meat shields. I've done this since before U9 though. I really enjoy the randomness that you get with some parties. Sometimes there is a challenge associated with a different group makeup and it especially hurts when you have players who can not adjust their strategy to accomidate a different type of group than the typical.

So IMO the number 1 reason for keeping to the status quo is because many players will not make the necessary adjustments to accomodate a different party makeup. An example of this could be a 6 player group that skips out on a healer but some people just can't handle this type of gameplay.

Enoach

05-26-2011, 05:13 PM

The main issue that people have with non-cookie cutter raid/quest make-ups usually stems from players not really understanding what each class COULD bring to the table. Of course this now affected by the 9 and 9.1 changes as well as preconcieved notions of KNOW YOUR ROLE.

I don't want to digress into the manuscia of How can x class perform better then y class... We've several other threads of people flexing their epeen already. I've even had people leave parties I have put together because they felt it would fail and did not want to waste their time.

As a Raid leader and participant of other raids I have created and been in groups where many would see the LFM and think FAIL LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO HAPPEN, that have been far more successful than the traditional make-up.

On the same note, I have been in cookie-cutter parties and raids that have been epic fails. Usually when this happens it can be summed into one of two reasons 1) epeen 2) miscommunication.

As for me when I lead Shroud (currently on a break from leading while I TR 3 of my toons) I will take the first 11 brave souls. The only stipulation I have is at least one person that can pick locks that also knows what they need to do. But I have only two rules in my Shroud runs: 1) Have Fun 2) I am the only one to hit the final alter

Most interesting make-up I've taken into shroud that was a blast and successful (Pre Mod 8)
1 Cleric (lvl 20)
3 FvS (2 WF, 1 elf)
3 Sorcs
1 Wizard/Rogue (18/2)
2 Rangers (Both AA)
1 Figher
1 Monk

Part 4 & 5 only the Sorcs, Wizard and AA's were on the outer ring. Everyone else was in swinging. It was a single round on Part 4.

Now the reason this make up worked is that 2 of the FvS were Lord Of Blades Melee builds, the Elf was Undying Court TWF Scimitar user. AA's knew how to use their abilities, and Sorc's and Wizard understood how to nuke.

Blank_Zero

05-26-2011, 05:22 PM

Raids can only have 2 possible make ups.

1. 9 melee, 1 sorc, 1 battle bard, 1 healbot babysitter

2. 12 self-sufficient casters

All other parties are inefficient and therefore, gimped :)

theKman

05-26-2011, 06:30 PM

Oh I do. Regularly. But I'm always willing to listen and learn. And still being a bit green it is wise for me to do so. I am very grateful to some of the extreme quality people and players who have been kind enough to respond in this thread. And I suspect others are finding the discussion interesting too.

Still reading... while in an all caster shroud... using our summons to break crystals in part 2 .... lol ... pugged...

And It Was a Blast!!! literally :D

Kourier

05-26-2011, 06:39 PM

Gotta say the DQ I ran today with half caster party was very easy - melees just stand in a wall and not die while casters DoT Lailat to death. Very quickly.

Still died though :( Silly level 12 trying to do elite demon queen with no shield and standing in the blades.

LordMond63

05-26-2011, 09:12 PM

2 Arcanes?! I though the limit was only one! :p

You beat me to it.

I've tried to join several Shroud raids with my Wizard only to be told that "we already have a caster"- emphasis on "A".

There is plenty of very convincing evidence that you do not need a "perfect" party composition to successfully complete any quest in the game- even, it appears, on Epic. I've read posts about Bards being the main healers in Shroud raids. Was it as easy as it would be with that "perfect" party? No, of course not. But it can be done, provided people will loosen up a bit and think somewhat outside their comfort zones.

JakLee7

05-26-2011, 09:32 PM

I think it really depends on who you know.... I have ace'd shroud with 5 casters, 1 healer & 3 bards with the rest some kind of melee - I have also failed spectacularly with 4 barbs, 2 fighters, 2 monks, 2 healers & 1 caster & a rogue....

depends on my running mood. If I have a few solid players (like a kickin healer & high dps barb) I may just take whoever comes...if I start the run with 5 friends/guildies I just go with whoever clicks join next. if I know no-one & just want to get my 40th, I may be a bit pickier, but to be fair, I usually just take whoever chooses my group & deal with the results.

I do want to reiterate something though, failing is seldom fun - every once in a while you have a blast doing a completely wasted run, but often its frustrating and irritating to fail (especially when it is due to idiocy rather than crazy)

KillEveryone

05-26-2011, 10:25 PM

Since I've joined Madborn, I haven't had to Pug a full raid group. We may pick up a few but it doesn't happen that often. Typically the raids are filled in guild and channel with guild members on an ault in a different guild. Quite nice and happy with that. :D

Haven't lead a Pug since December really. When I did lead them, it was before the changes to sorcerers. Now with sorcerers, there are a few more options to DPS. They were DPS before but they are much better now.

Up until December, I pugged every single raid and this is what I've noticed.

Pugs don't really like things to be different. They like to do what they know actually works. It isn't easy to convince pugs to try new things because they get to a point in the raid and they don't want to wipe with a reform so they want to stay with tried and true tactics. A wipe and reform means they have to repeat and they may have a few characters they want to get through several raids so a wipe will set them back.

You also didn't know what you got with the unknown pug. Some players had that sorcerer icon but were melee focused. I started to recognize the players that had that. Didn't bother me and they held their end. Some FvS were more melee focused and didn't have mass healing so you had to take another divine or two to cover the healing. Some players have the cleric icon but it doesn't mean they can play party healer. Then there are the squishy types that die when a Shroud portal looks at them funny. You have the wiz that didn't think they needed spell pen. DDO has that variety in classes that you don't know what you get just because they have a particular icon.

You take a second divine just in case there is a DC. There are also some divines that are just unsure of themselves so you take a second. People still didn't think spellsingers could be party healer and when I was on Quickymart, people would see the bard icon and think we only have one healer with plenty of people skeptical until completion. My first run with Quicky was a bit rocky and it just reinforced a few players "thinking" about what a real healer is. After I got the timing down, I started to change some players opinions about what a healer is.

You take one or two arcanes because that is part of the tactics. In some cases, you want to make sure the boss is surrounded like is Shroud. In DQ, having bodies on the line that can take a punishment works well since the snake lady will be aggroed on the caster for a bit. VoD, it seems to be a beat down for the melee types. Anytime I was on my wiz in there for any pug I did, I was just CC for bats mostly and any mass hold/web for devils. Hound didn't use the arcane for much beyond buffing the pups. Not sure the reason for that beyond that players may think beholders can pop which can prevent arcane from being effective.

I did very few runs without an arcane in Shroud but I was on my bard so haste and rage was covered. The ranger took care of the crystal. People were skeptical about things till after part 2 because they think that you need an arcane to do the crystal.

In guild runs, you know the players. You know the builds work. You know they are dependable. You know what you have to work with so you can break the typical party mold and you don't have any worries. Pugs are different.

Ngha

05-26-2011, 10:36 PM

As the title says:

Raid party construction doesn't have to be 2 arcanes, 2 divines, 1 bard and 7 melee.

Discuss.

I am particularly interested to hear from people who regularly lead raids, who regulalry lead pugged raids, and people who've been in surprizingly constructed raid groups and had a lot of fun.

A good point was made over in another thread: "Casters are still barely accepted into raids, and melees aren't being excluded" (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3818788&postcount=44) so it's probably worth talking about.

I was just asked as the 12th person (and on a cleric) waiting to be accepted into a VOD that already had 3 FvSes and 2 clerics "You can see we already have healers" and what got me in I think was my answer being "let me add my divine punishment too" . *Love* that DOT!

I only raid with semi-pugs. but I keep the at least 1 rogue and 2 healers thing, cause well... its a pug. otherwise I don't care. The reason why is because if I'm grinding shrough for the 00th time, with the 100th group of the same kind of people playing the same kind of way, with the same kind of characters....I doze off mentally.

Kabaon

05-27-2011, 01:33 AM

I run a lot of raids, usually the leader of them (especially when there isn't one up) and my general party makeup is me (as a caster), 2 divines (for all the living characters) and 9 melees/ranged (I personally don't care as long as they know what they are doing, or can follow along and listen to instructions).

The reason I don't take a second caster in raids.... even ToD incase I fail (which happens from time to time) is becuase I find they get in my way. I am generally faster in say Part 1 shroud on my own than with a second caster, becuase I know the portal order and I know how long it takes me to get to the next group of mobs. And I can usually pull the agro better toward me than if I have to fight for the agro with another caster. This isn't a recent trend for me, I just learned over time I'm better off.

****es the hell out of my fiance though, she wants me to get more sorcs because of the savant damage increases, but i told her I won't change and the only extra caster I'll ever take is her.... too set in my ways.

theKman

05-27-2011, 01:42 AM

And you know what.. this is the Joy of DDO
It works for you, you enjoy it that way, you are making the group.
if anyone doesn't like it, they can make their own group.

lhidda

05-27-2011, 01:48 AM

switch one arcane to a melee. =D

fvs only raid is an option too

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=320524&highlight=fvs+raid

VxCalais

06-09-2011, 08:28 AM

Well in response to you OP .. the stupid fast / perfect group is the following:

A Bard Warchanter ... a FvS with the Light DoT maxed out ... and 9 Barbarians with ESoS and maxed STR as FB's with the reason to die for the cause ( some will argue Pallies etc but lets keep it simple here).

But you tell me the last time you got that?

So I finished a Shroud with 6 Arcane / 3 Divines and a Bard, a Ranger and a Monk. It took longer but it was fun...

So lets not get into Ultimate Parties and move on and enjoy the game ...

Money

DaSawks

06-09-2011, 08:55 AM

I feel the issue of having a "perfect raid group" as noted by the OP is less of an issue in todays DDO verse in the past. With new PRE's for Clerics, FVS, Archane's etc. there are more types of toons avalable. In the past you would see a join request from a Sorc (Wizard, FVS, Cleric etc.) and you could kinda know what you were getting. Nowadays there is a more diverse playing field. IMO it is more important to communicate at the start what is expected from certian players and what those players have to offer.

Perfect example. Shroud run on normal. Leader only allows 2 Divine and 2 Archane. 2 FVS and 2 Sorcs join. At the start of Phase one it became obvious to me that the 2 FVS were not "Raid Healers". In part 4 both FVS helped surround Harry and commenced to beat down. Both would pause to drop mass cures which lead to some deaths and griping about "Know your roll". If the leader had taken 2 seconds to clarify what his expectations were none of that would have happened. One of the Sorc's was fire speced and even dropped WOF on Harry. Not what you would expect but not a catastrophy by any means. After completion several players politely explained to the fire Sorc what the situation was and how to make a few adjustments to his toon. He was very receptive and was glad for the feedback.

BangsLiekWhoa

06-09-2011, 09:10 AM

Raid group composition is really not that big a deal except maybe in ToD where there are a few things that you really want to be sure you have (we always run Hard, so skipping the light monk and such is not as much an option - normal ToD feels dirty anyway...)

Most other raids though, can be done with most any raid group composition.

Shroud:
I have been in all AA shrouds, all bard shrouds, shrouds with 7 arcanes, 2 bards, 1 ranger, 1 pally, and 1 divine... all these were less than 20 minute completions...Shroud especially is not hard at all. When I make an LFM for shroud, I take the first 11 people to join. They just hope that I get a divine in there otherwise they will have to deal with my bard heals (which aren't bad) and any other heals someone may have...If no arcane joins, someone else gets to take care of the crystal...and there is no waiting around to figure stuff out or shrine until after part 3...just zerg the thing. This includes PuG runs...

Abbott:
You need 12 people. That is all. If they can keep themselves alive/rez then you have what you need. *Some will insist that you need a capstone cleric or a dark monk with water walk... Ice is REALLY easy for anyone who knows the basic concept behind "leapfrog."

Hound:
You need 1 to keep the doggy aggro, 1 to heal the "tank" and the doggies, 1 to keep some cc in the East if you want that security, and 2 to run opposite circles around the outside. The rest can be anything. Again, super easy.

VoD:
1 tank, 1 cc for bats if you want, 1-2 hjeals (does NOT have to be divine, bards work fine. Special Note: Bards CAN heal fine in DDO, people just don't tend to trust them.) The rest can be anyone...as long as they can put out some damage...

Reaver:
1 "tank" (can be pretty much anyone). 11 pikers.

DQ and VoN6 (non-epic):
12 anything, just be able to do a little DPS and stay alive...

DQ and VoN6 (epic):
You probably will want a couple divines (although 1 with enough SP is fine in VoN6 for sure), 1 arcane to pull queen/solo base 1, people prefer 1 bard in VoN6 for fascinate, and the rest can be anything more or less.

Titan:
2 people with good balance...10 people for "aggro management - aka: piking ladder"

Oh, and a group can never have too many bards.:D

Qezuzu

06-09-2011, 09:20 AM

Did epic ADQ1 a couple days ago, killed Lailat 2.0 in 20 seconds, all divines (one sorc, me). :cool:

Special exception, since with Lailat's intense damage output and the disjunction balls removing any HP gear/DR gear/item sets(claw, ToD)/weapon enchantments, she's pretty impractical to melee.

But really, almost any raid can be completed with the first 11 people that apply, so long as everyone is competent.

Don't forgot all-rogue shrouds!

ORIGINALBAG0

06-09-2011, 09:34 AM

Really, the biggest issue I find with pug casters is that the changes to casting (savants in particular) have made it extremely easy for casters to pump out damage. I've been in a number of raids, from VoD to ToD to ADQ to Reaver, where some fleshy arcane with no gear and 78HP figured out that he can, with the eardweller he ninja-looted, triple-stack multiple DoTs and cast an acid rain and every other spell that does ticks of damage on the raid boss that the tank should have the aggro of. This situation never ends well. As such, I try to only have one or two arcanes/divines I don't know in the party.

hecate355

06-09-2011, 10:04 AM

i tend to get irritated over too narrow lfm-s, classes are like blueprints, they only present very bottom level abilities.

not to mention that classes tell zero about players character building skills, quest knowledge, players adaptability.

among myriad of factors, class is the least relevant, fine, you see me being rogue, but you dont know anything about how i have built and geared it, to accomplish what goals and where has my emphasis been. while it may not turn my rogue into barbarian or paladin just for the sake of effort; it is more than enough to handle things, assuming other people in group arent dead weigh.

it really is that simple, sometimes experienced and skilled people pile up in pugs, and things go amazingly smooth, the other time you have seemingly perfect group, yet it does not work.

those odd no ranger, no rogue, only ranger, only rogue etc lfm-s reek after incompetence. and i wont go there trying to convince that my ranger, rogue or whatever 'is dps too', ill just let em be the way they want.

Chai

06-09-2011, 10:13 AM

Normal raid: First 11 who hit up the LFM - assigned roles need to be filled of course. Bring your gimps and get ye flask.

Sometimes Ill open it on hard when I know the players and think we have a strong group. I usually dont "plan" hard raids.

Elite raid: Im being picky. I will let strong players in with their alts before I let questionable players in with their mains. Roles are filled with back ups in place. Mana pot counts are taken after each part when applicable.

I believe in filling assigned roles but I do not believe in absolute formulas for success class wise.

Jaid314

06-09-2011, 03:14 PM

i dunno, i've found since U9 i notice a lot more outstandingly bad casters. like, really really bad. so bad it makes me cringe every time i see them, and i think to myself "oh, right, *that's* why i have a hard time getting into raids.

for every 42 DC engine of death and destruction out there, there are likely a number of "huh? what's a savant" sorcerers out there. no joke, try asking some time, "hey, what kind of savant are you" to the next random sorcerer (ie not someone you know plays well) you meet and see what answer you get. try that over time.

and sit there in awe of the fact that an appalling number of them don't even know what savants are. not just that they aren't savants (i mean, you could make an effective sorcerer with no savant. not as effective generally as one with savant, but still, effective. but not even knowing? that's a problem).

so yeah, while it annoys me when people are all "oh noes, we can't taek teh tihrd castar, we will fayl teh rayd!", i can sorta understand... those of us who play competent casters don't often realise just how many utterly incompetent buffoons are out there giving us a bad name, because once we get into a group nobody wants a second caster.

same basic deal with divines... *can* a divine bring plenty of DPS, utility, and even melee combat to the group? yes. but there's a lot more divines that sit in the back and throw the occasional heal. i'll gladly take half a dozen nuker or melee favored souls into a raid, no problem. but i don't need 6 healers, and honestly... when i'm getting a pug divine, i'm more or less operating under the assumption that they do the bare minimum of being able to heal, and that's about it. not that they *couldn't* do more, but rather that most of them *don't* do more, don't want to do more, and often don't even realise that there is more that they could do.

in groups where you actually know the quality of the players, i expect multiple casters and multiple divines are much more acceptable. but most of the time, people will take the classes that are less *visibly* going to fail miserably because of poor build/gear choices. a caster that dump statted con will die really easily, as will a rogue that dump-statted con, and so you see people having a poor opinion of them, because when they screw up, they tend to die.

a crappy fighter/barbarian/etc, on the other hand, tends not to die... they simply sit there and swing their weapons and do pathetic amounts of damage. but since you can't see their damage, people tend to assume they're doing equal damage to everyone else, and that it's a fairly even split. their complete and utter uselessness is still present, but not as visible, and so they get a pass.

if you could see the DPS of others, we might see a change. as it stands, well... people can tell when (for example) your fire sorcerer is spamming wall of fire on harry. they can tell when your webs have a crappy DC, they can tell when your mass holds don't stick, they can tell when you can't beat the spell pen of weak monsters. they can tell when you don't have a clue what spell to use. it's really painfully obvious to anyone who knows much about casters when they're in a group with a bad caster. but when you're in a group with a fighter, it's hard to know whether they just have a bad strength stat or if they just don't use any trip/stun attacks. maybe they felt an extra toughness was worth more than stunning blow, and that 2 toughness feats was worth more than improved trip (and that regular trip isn't worth bothering for some reason). it's a tiny bit easier to tell now with new melee animations, but a caster tends to have this big, flashy animation that tells you what they're doing, and frankly... there are some very good melees out there who are mainly good because they do insane DPS, and they don't need stunning blow or trip to justify bringing them along. the problem is being able to visibly tell those melees from the ones who couldn't DPS their way out of a wet paper bag (well, apart from the ones you see with shields...) if their life depended on it. and heck, even that guy with a shield might actually be an effective tank build who switches between eSoS/greatsword and bastard swords as needed.

BangsLiekWhoa

06-09-2011, 03:21 PM

Jaid314

06-09-2011, 03:49 PM

I don't think they are as prevalent as you make it sound. Although, we did get in a EDQ the other day and only one arcane was in the group (which is fine), but that sorc didn't have ANY spells to damage the queen so she would come down to the center. We asked about all the obvious damage spells..."no, no, no..." we were simply amazed...

well, yeah, it's not like 1 in every 2 casters you meet is a horrible gimp. but i think it's more common than you realize. getting DC 38 on a first life wizard is not terribly hard (at least in one or two skills), and *should* make amrath normal largely a cakewalk. and yet, more often than not, amrath is done with (effectively) no CC at all.

Airgeadlam

06-09-2011, 04:38 PM

I was just asked as the 12th person (and on a cleric) waiting to be accepted into a VOD that already had 3 FvSes and 2 clerics "You can see we already have healers" and what got me in I think was my answer being "let me add my divine punishment too" . *Love* that DOT!

Well, something happened to me on a Shroud PuG the other day. Like 4 casters, 3 FvS, 1 cleric, rogues... Not a very strange build-up, but far from the "ideal build" you reflected on the title. One of the casters said something like "We have no DPS, so.. i better quit so you can get another melee". That let me wondering.. My FvS is not an uber one, but still with maximize+empower on, I can give Harry a pain via Divine Punishment... with 4 divines, 4x the damage. Anyway, we enter the quest and was a blast. Smooth and really, really fast. Harry was there just to say hi and die. Same goes for his lieutenants on parts 2 and 5. Not an expert on other raids, but for sure this one admits more than one party configuration.

chester99

06-09-2011, 04:51 PM

NaturalHazard

06-09-2011, 04:55 PM

As the title says:

Raid party construction doesn't have to be 2 arcanes, 2 divines, 1 bard and 7 melee.

Discuss.

I am particularly interested to hear from people who regularly lead raids, who regulalry lead pugged raids, and people who've been in surprizingly constructed raid groups and had a lot of fun.

A good point was made over in another thread: "Casters are still barely accepted into raids, and melees aren't being excluded" (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3818788&postcount=44) so it's probably worth talking about.

I was just asked as the 12th person (and on a cleric) waiting to be accepted into a VOD that already had 3 FvSes and 2 clerics "You can see we already have healers" and what got me in I think was my answer being "let me add my divine punishment too" . *Love* that DOT!

ive been in some raids where the majority where divines and arcanes and I would have to say they where the fastest and smoothest raids ive ever done.