Can sum1 please explain how much better TWF is than THF on a Paladin?

[rezarecshun]

So much people are telling me different things and I can't decide since idk any unique loot khopesh that can beat SOS, but apparently smites apply to both weapons....

feedback appreciated

[Bigrtt]

AFAIK, dual epic chaos blades on a paladin will beat out an epic SoS generally speaking. Having said that, TWF in most cases is better than THF regardless of weapon choice. You're getting more effect procs per 'round' of swings when TWF compared to if you were just swinging a greataxe. I'm not the best at explaining it so hopefully someone picks up on it and does a better job.


However, a TWF Paladin is a VERY hard to build toon and is very gear specific. I see a few on my server and out of every 10 I see, I'd say only about 1 would be a well thought out and geared one. The rest are very sub-par and really struggle. Also in saying that, I rarely see a 20 Paladin TWF, most are multi-classed into ranger, monk or rogue depending on the goals of the toon.

Oh and yes, TWFing on a paladin when you smite, it will apply to both weapons.

[MsEricka]

It CAN apply to both weapons, only if you happen to get a double strike in the same instant that you are smiting.

However a properly built TWF paladin with the right gear can raise their double strike chances considerably.

But, it's much harder to make a TWF paladin due to the points required into Dex. My paladin is TWF and I rather enjoy it.

[rezarecshun]

AFAIK, dual epic chaos blades on a paladin will beat out an epic SoS generally speaking. Having said that, TWF in most cases is better than THF regardless of weapon choice. You're getting more effect procs per 'round' of swings when TWF compared to if you were just swinging a greataxe. I'm not the best at explaining it so hopefully someone picks up on it and does a better job.


However, a TWF Paladin is a VERY hard to build toon and is very gear specific. I see a few on my server and out of every 10 I see, I'd say only about 1 would be a well thought out and geared one. The rest are very sub-par and really struggle. Also in saying that, I rarely see a 20 Paladin TWF, most are multi-classed into ranger, monk or rogue depending on the goals of the toon.

Oh and yes, TWFing on a paladin when you smite, it will apply to both weapons.

Everyone says that TWF Paladin is much better, and exactly what you said-very gear specific

I'm thinking i should stock up on tomes especially for dexterity because even on 32 point builds its hard to build your character correctly for that 17 base for ITWF, enough strength for decent to-hit, good constitution, and magical 20 charisma base.....actually now that i think about it i still don't get why TWF beats THF.

When i think i cons for TWF pally:-u need high quality tomes to reach 20 charisma, 17 dexterity, u can't max str at creation, its super hard to fit in khopeshes, u don't get OTWF(human might help idk)

I can't possibly see how an H-orc Paladin or WF with all THF enhancements, enough str to max at creation, good constitution, and less struggle in getting 20 charisma base, as well as PA enhancements and an epic SOS isn't able to beat out TWF human pally(im thinking human is inevitable for TWF pally since its feat starved being pure)

WIth that being said, I don't get DDO math at all, so I would appreciate someone putting out an optimized build for max DPS on TWF or THF Paladins

[NaturalHazard]

well one little tidbit of information, you can get holy sword khopeshes but I think 2 handers are restricted to greatswords? But that becomes a moot point when you get better beaters.

[kuro_zero]

It CAN apply to both weapons, only if you happen to get a double strike in the same instant that you are smiting.

However a properly built TWF paladin with the right gear can raise their double strike chances considerably.

But, it's much harder to make a TWF paladin due to the points required into Dex. My paladin is TWF and I rather enjoy it.

I though off-hand strikes (from feats) process separately from double-strike chances (such as from zeal). Thought theoretically you could get triple smites (main hand, off hand, double strike)

To answer the OP, I will keep the answer specific to paladins. First lets look at the 1st level paladin spell divine favor. At level 9 it provides a +3 bonus to hit and damage. A TWF however gets that bonus to both mainhand and offhand attacks. The same logic applies to Divine Might - the damage boost applies to both of his weapons.

Smiting adds CHA mod to damage, and like the above bonuses, apply to mainhand and offhand (if it procs) attacks.

[Razcar]

WIth that being said, I don't get DDO math at all, so I would appreciate someone putting out an optimized build for max DPS on TWF or THF Paladins
Paladins get lots of bonuses to damage that are independent of main-hand or off-hand. Compare to a barbarian whose only damage bonus is high Strength, and that Strength would get halved for the off-hand if the barb went TWF.

Not "max DPS" but this is a good TWF Paladin build: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=227645

[Krag]

Paladin class features favor twf style,but if you have ESoS, THF becomes more interesting.

Assuming no OTWF feat ESoS has +7 to-hit advantage over a pair of lit2 khopeshi. +7 to-hit alone makes a whole world of differens to someone regularly running epics. Add 1 extra feat (THF don't need EWP:khopesh) and less strain on stat distribution and suddenly TWF-style is not all that appealing.

--------
Of course there is a possibility of a better one-handers appearing in the near future which would turn the tables, but I wouldn't count on it.

[kuro_zero]

ESoS paly is certainly a different beast all-together. A pure 20 paly Capstone and slotted silver in ESoS can certainly give most TWF builds a run for their money in terms of DPS but I think that has more to do with ESoS than anything else.

A paly Capstone dual-wielding dual epic chaos blades slotted with silver, however...

It should also be mentioned that the extra damage KotC paly get vs evil outsiders is applied to both weapons.

[Synnestar35791]

First off, I'm not going to go into mathematical equations.
I will tell you this : the difference is speed.
one weapon, means an obvious weapon motion sequence.
the action sequence is blade down up across, & cleave modifies this at point activated.
TWF: there is slashing series & it is a little different in action.
now with that said,
weapon types, enhancements, character build, alignment all play into quality of strike.
ONE weapon vs. 2 sorta can be seen already but I'd say, just make a toon for each type and watch the effects yourself...

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158960&highlight=TWF

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=317850&highlight=THF

Both links have alot of conversation in them....

[Krag]

ESoS paly is certainly a different beast all-together. A pure 20 paly Capstone and slotted silver in ESoS can certainly give most TWF builds a run for their money in terms of DPS but I think that has more to do with ESoS than anything else.

A paly Capstone dual-wielding dual epic chaos blades slotted with silver, however...

It should also be mentioned that the extra damage KotC paly get vs evil outsiders is applied to both weapons.

ECB is an awesome overall weapon and even better boss beater on a pure paladin.
However ECB is even more rare and expensive than ESoS far outside the reach of a casual player. And yet ECB is still +6 to-hit behind ESoS. No matter how you look at it ESoS gives best bang for your effort.

[rezarecshun]

What would my feat choices look like i was thinking this: (with human for TWF, pretty much a must since khopesh imo is only viable option for anything other than drow or elves)will my to-hit be sufficient for epics even if i have only +1 str enhancement, 16 str at creation, +4 str tome before endgame, and no OTWF?
Toughness
TWF
EWF Khopesh
ITWF
Extend Spell
GTWF
ICS
PA

For THF:WF or Horc(since they get THF enhancements and more to offer since they aren't feat starved) I get +2 str at creation and +2 more str with Horc enhancements, and WF get same THF enhancements as well as extra survivability through Con enhancements and immunities( beling alive to attack is more DPS)
Toughness
THF
PA
Extend Spell
ITHF
ICS
GTHF

[kuro_zero]

The feat list looks right to me. 16 STR starting will be fine for epics with gear.

A TWF WF paly isn't a bad option either as the power attack enhancements (not sure if horc get them) favors TWF for same reasons listed above. May need to drop extend for OTWF as to-hit can take a plunge with PA on.

Weapon of choice would be heavy picks. Death Nips (necro tome page turn in) are insane trash beaters and x6 ex smite critical multiplier is insane. Saving two tome page sets in bank for when I get to rolling one eventually...

Paldins are horrendously AP starved an sacrifices will need to be made. My planned paly had to give up the CON enhancements and could only afford tier 2 of racial and paly toughness.

[NaturalHazard]

for devil beaters how does a epic cove cutless on a pure pally with silver augment do?

I mean if you where playing during the cove its way easyier to get than anything else.

[rezarecshun]

The feat list looks right to me. 16 STR starting will be fine for epics with gear.

A TWF WF paly isn't a bad option either as the power attack enhancements (not sure if horc get them) favors TWF for same reasons listed above. May need to drop extend for OTWF as to-hit can take a plunge with PA on.

Weapon of choice would be heavy picks. Death Nips (necro tome page turn in) are insane trash beaters and x6 ex smite critical multiplier is insane. Saving two tome page sets in bank for when I get to rolling one eventually...

Paldins are horrendously AP starved an sacrifices will need to be made. My planned paly had to give up the CON enhancements and could only afford tier 2 of racial and paly toughness.

Think about it.....I mean if you have to stop in a fight to buff urself, ur not getting Max DPS, and with PA on, and no OTWF you are getting some bad hits to your to-hit thats why TWF Pally is looking sketchy to me

[kuro_zero]

Think about it.....I mean if you have to stop in a fight to buff urself, ur not getting Max DPS, and with PA on, and no OTWF you are getting some bad hits to your to-hit thats why TWF Pally is looking sketchy to me

Short of SOME epic bosses, to-hit is hardly ever an issue. And with changes to divine favor casting (instant) it isn't much slower than activating a boost. DM is far worse pause and was skipped. Also remember that a paladin gets a +3 bonus to hit and damage every other melee class wont have through divine favor (exceptions being battleclerics, FvS, and those with paladin past-life feat)

EDIT
Was also why I planned on splashing two monk for the feats and picking up both OTWF and extent. Worth trading the Capstone? Definately debatable.

EDIT 2
While paladins can certainly dish out the DPS, they are not DPSers in the vein of Kensais or Barbs but rather burst DPSers through ex smite and divine sacrifice.

[Razcar]

Paladin class features favor twf style,but if you have ESoS, THF becomes more interesting.
This is important, it is not TWF contra THF that is the issue here, it is the ridicoulous and stupid ESoS contra everything else.

If the devs made another sloppy release like the ESoS but for, say, a throwing weapon that critted 15-20 x 5 and had 10d12 base damage, it wouldn't be the Throwing style that would suddenly be better than other styles - it would be this weapon only. So anyone that specced for Throwing (halfling barb with Brutal throw and Quick draw?) would be at a disadvantage until they got lucky and found this new over-powered piece of loot.

It is in my view better to build around certainties. And getting good khopeshes are in my view more certain than getting an ESoS. And when that happens you always have the option to TR.

[fluffybunnywilson]

Anything that gives the same static damage bonus on a hit to both TWF users and THF users will benefit TWF more.

If you get a +3 Damage bonus from Divine Power, then you will get +3 for your main hand and +(0.8*3) for your off hand.

Holy provides +2d6 damage against Evil enemies. A THF gets +2d6. A TWF using a pair of Holy weapons gets +(1.8 * 2d6).

A TWF user gets 1.8 Paralyzing attacks when wielding a pair of Paralyzers for every one Paralyzing attack that a THF gets.

A TWF user gets 1.8 Vorpal attacks when wielding a pair of Vorpal weapons for every one Vorpal attack that a THF gets.


There is a down side to TWF, though. TWF is terrible at low levels because it imposes a severe To Hit penalty and has a low offhand attack rate to go with that penalty. THF benefits more from Power Attack than TWF does. Some THF characters will get more extra damage from Strength when Glancing Blows are factored in compared to a TWF melee. And, of course, a TWF melee has to craft twice as many weapons and a TWF melee needs twice as much backpack space devoted to weapons compared to a THF melee.

[krogyy]

Paladins get lots of bonuses to damage that are independent of main-hand or off-hand. Compare to a barbarian whose only damage bonus is high Strength, and that Strength would get halved for the off-hand if the barb went TWF.

aren't you forgetting the 6d6 viscious damage a FB gets?

[EllisDee37]

It's mainly for Divine Sacrifice. When fighting anything of substance, you should be spamming Divine Sacrifice every 3 seconds like clockwork. (I can say from experience this isn't unrealistic -- it's become second nature to me -- and if you have a bodyfeeder weapon it doesn't even require a pocket healer to watch your back.)

Divine Sacrifice will go off a second time for free if your offhand weapon procs, which will be 80% of the time once you have the full TWF chain.

I believe it also happens with Smites, but that's largely negligable since even a full specced Smiting KotC will only have around a dozen smites per shrine. By contrast, Divine Sacrifice gets spammed every fourth or fifth swing. Adding 80% again more Divine Sacrifices is a massive (and free!) boost to DPS.

EDIT: My longterm plan is to TR into a TWF pally, but he'll be using two-handers (Carnifex, Bloody Cleaver) until probably level 12, as people are right that until you have the entire feat chain the to-hit penalities are substantial.

[Chai]

Depends.

If you have alot of absolute damage procs which do not scale for combat style, like effects, SA, bard buffs, gear set bonus etc - TWF is better by the numbers when characters are nailed to the ground in full speed attack animation.

THF becomes better when moving due to having a stronger attacking when moving animation, when the effect scales due to combat style, for people having to-hit issues, high unbreakable DR mobs.

Its purely situational. Various players will tell you its always one or always the other...naaaaa.

[EllisDee37]

Depends.

If you have alot of absolute damage procs which do not scale for combat style, like effects, SA, bard buffs, gear set bonus etc - TWF is better by the numbers when characters are nailed to the ground in full speed attack animation.

THF becomes better when moving due to having a stronger attacking when moving animation, when the effect scales due to combat style, for people having to-hit issues, high unbreakable DR mobs.

Its purely situational. Various players will tell you its always one or always the other...naaaaa.I generally applaud this type of big picture perspective, but I think Paladins are an exception. As I said in the previous post, it's all about Divine Sacrifice.

[Chai]

Paladins get lots of bonuses to damage that are independent of main-hand or off-hand. Compare to a barbarian whose only damage bonus is high Strength, and that Strength would get halved for the off-hand if the barb went TWF.

Not "max DPS" but this is a good TWF Paladin build: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=227645

6d6 of frenzy damage and high % glances, and higher str. +X3 Crit multiplier on 19-20.

Most of the time I see good DPS paladins is when they have great gear. and are playing in content lower down than they are geared for (playing TOD in epic gear for instance). Even an ungeared barbarian can hold their own in situations where ungeared paladins usually do not due to th-hit more than flat damage rate.

Sans gear a barbarian can sit at ~60 str. which is more of a significant to-hit advantage than it is a damage advantage. Paladins prob have comparable damage due to all their clickies, if they can get the same to-hit, but sans gear, they are not doing this. I do see alot of claims that peoples undergeared toons never have to-hit issues, but this is false. How many TWF paladins have OTWF?

Epic chaos blades look great on paper, when all those wonderful variables are assumed away, and if you can hit on a 2, which means having some gear, youre likely doing some great DPS. Its more of an uphill struggle for paladins until then, than it is for the higher str classes / builds. That gear aint going to go get itself, heh. One does not simply walk into EDQ and claim they are hitting on a 2 all the time.

[Chai]

I generally applaud this type of big picture perspective, but I think Paladins are an exception. As I said in the previous post, it's all about Divine Sacrifice.

w/gear and in stars aligned situations I agree.

When most people ask the dps questions, they are trying to figure it out for the content they play in under specific circumstances, and its a simple office pool until the thread boils down into calcs assuming a devil boss, 50% fort, hits on a 2, and all attainable gear is had. I tend not to boil DDO down to three devil bosses, one dragon, and one maralith however.

That being said, once you lock down the situation, it IS all about divine sacrifice, heh.

[Nick_RC]

For a paladin there is no reason to put yourself in a box. They arnt like kensai in the fact that if they switch away from their favored weapon they comparatively lose dps.

Personally this is the build I had slated for my main as a paladin. I got distracted with other projects but this is still what I would do. Basically go 2wf full time. But for those instances where you are struggling to hit/need to move etc use 2 handed w/ ESOS. The only opportunity cost for taking 2HF in this setup is 6ap. You have to twitch to get decent results but the extra too hit can really be useful at times on a pali.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=294604

N

[EllisDee37]

Sans gear a barbarian can sit at ~60 str. which is more of a significant to-hit advantage than it is a damage advantage. Paladins prob have comparable damage due to all their clickies, if they can get the same to-hit, but sans gear, they are not doing this. I do see alot of claims that peoples undergeared toons never have to-hit issues, but this is false. How many TWF paladins have OTWF?

Epic chaos blades look great on paper, when all those wonderful variables are assumed away, and if you can hit on a 2, which means having some gear, youre likely doing some great DPS. Its more of an uphill struggle for paladins until then, than it is for the higher str classes / builds. That gear aint going to go get itself, heh. One does not simply walk into EDQ and claim they are hitting on a 2 all the time.
w/gear and in stars aligned situations I agree.

When most people ask the dps questions, they are trying to figure it out for the content they play in under specific circumstances, and its a simple office pool until the thread boils down into calcs assuming a devil boss, 50% fort, hits on a 2, and all attainable gear is had. I tend not to boil DDO down to three devil bosses, one dragon, and one maralith however.

That being said, once you lock down the situation, it IS all about divine sacrifice, heh.
Well said, no argument from me.

[Razcar]

aren't you forgetting the 6d6 viscious damage a FB gets?
Rather exaggerating. There's many bonuses a barb will have in combat that gets applied equally to both weapons if he would TWF, he doesn't of course get "only Str damage" as I said. Strength and Power Attack are big ones though.