You forgot about the Titans, Turbine

[Xenostrata]

You gave Air Savants knockdown immunity (I'm not sure if this problem is also true for Thief Acrobats), but forgot to make them immune to the incredibly annoying Warforged Titan knockdown. After running solo through Eye of the Titan (inconvenient) and the Battlefield (varying between annoying and life-threatening), I strongly suggest that the Titan's earth shaking (?) effect that causes knockdown and movement should also be blocked by the knockdown immunity of Air Savants and Thief Acrobats.

[katz]

they're frikking TITANS. we shouldn't be immune to ANYTHING they do!


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but yeah, that would definitely be annoying to find something that you were supposedly immune to, and you aren't

[Vengeance777]

Its the same with Acrobats too. Immune to slippery surfaces, trip, and knockdown effects but hit by titan knockdown. Only way to become immune to Warforged Titan's hammer is to get over 45 balance.

[GotSomeQuestions]

It would also be nice if halflings with these immunities didn't get knocked down by Gust of Wind.

[camels]

Its the same with Acrobats too. Immune to slippery surfaces, trip, and knockdown effects but hit by titan knockdown. Only way to become immune to Warforged Titan's hammer is to get over 45 balance.

what he said

[Cardtrick]

Are you talking about the titan, from the raid, or any titan? I can see not having knockdown immunity from the raid boss. I didn't realize thief acrobat knockdown immunity didn't work against standard warforged titans, though, and I agree that it should.

For some reason, my acrobat doesn't get knocked down by them, though.The warforged titan at the end of Weapons Shipment, for example, would knock my character around - I'd go flying off -- but not down. I assumed that was due to his knockdown immunity, since it's exactly the same effect he sees when fighting minotaurs (they can knock him flying, or even play pinball with him, but not knock him down).

[SaneDitto]

Yeah, all Warforged Titans (not just the Warforged Titan) knock down everything. My acrobat can attest that he's been eating dirt from them for a while despite getting his skid boots. :D

[Cardtrick]

Yeah, all Warforged Titans (not just the Warforged Titan) knock down everything. My acrobat can attest that he's been eating dirt from them for a while despite getting his skid boots. :D

Whereas mine has never been knocked down by one, just batted around. That's weird. What is the check? Mine has low balance (which I know is the check used by the raid boss) but very high STR and reflex (which are the more typical checks to avoid knockdown effects).

[SaneDitto]

I really have no idea. The dice and the combat log aren't saying anything. Either my acrobat gets knocked around, or he gets knocked down. His stat distributions are similar to yours, albeit with perhaps a little higher balance and a little lower STR.

Funny thing is that back then I could still move and attack despite being knocked down. I tried replicating that in recent runs, but I can't quite get it. I don't know if it's because my characters are non-acrobats, or Turbine fixed it. :confused:

[Jeromio]

Its the same with Acrobats too. Immune to slippery surfaces, trip, and knockdown effects but hit by titan knockdown. Only way to become immune to Warforged Titan's hammer is to get over 45 balance.

35 balance for THE Warforged Titan... unless it's be changed.

Btw, agree with OP, this issue should be fixed.

[FuzzyDuck81]

It would also be nice if halflings with these immunities didn't get knocked down by Gust of Wind.

But...but.. its fun to blow my guildies down while we're waiting at quest entrances, then point & laugh!

[Calebro]

Read the descriptions:

Gust of Wind (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Gust_of_Wind):
Small or smaller enemies are knocked prone, and Medium or smaller enemies are slowed by the winds unless they make a reflex save equal to 12 + your casting stat's modifier.

:Sorcerer Air Savant III (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhancement:Sorcerer_Air_Savant_III): You are now immune to most knockdown effects (but not slippery surfaces)

Rogue Thief-Acrobat II (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhancement:Rogue_Thief-Acrobat_II): Also grants a greater Competence bonus to attack speed with staves and complete immunity to most knockdown effects and slippery surfaces.

Halflings get knocked down by Gust of Wind because they're small creatures. The blast of wind is so powerful that a 3 foot tall "kid" gets blown over by it. It's the force of a hurricane directed at you.
Air Savants and Acrobats get knocked down by Titans because they are not immune to ALL kinds of knockdowns, just most of them. Most knockdowns happen because you were charged by a minotaur, in which case you deftly stepped out of the way. Or because your leg was swept out from under you, but you kept your balance on one leg, or rolled out of it onto your feet again immediately.
Kip Up, which was the PnP name for the Acro ability, didn't make you immune to knockdowns. It allowed you to regain your feet again as a free action, which was normally prohibited. That didn't trasnlate well into a live action game, so they simply made you immune to most things instead.
A Titan's knockdown effect is slamming his hammer into the ground with the force of an earthquake. The ground beneath you shakes so violently that no amount of acrobatics will help you keep your feet. Kip Up doesn't apply here, because the shaking ground, which caused you to fall over, is still shaking, so getting right back up would only knock you over again. Only a natural sense of balance is going to help.

There's a reason that it doesn't make you immune to all knockdown effects. That's because some of them don't make sense for you to be immune to.

[Xenostrata]

Calebro, where did you get those descriptions? Because my Aie Savant has been walking through Grease and Ice Storms with no problems.

Also, regardless of size, if a halfling with knockdown immunity gets hit with a knockdown effect than s/he should in fact be immune.

[FastTaco]

Halflings get knocked down by Gust of Wind because they're small creatures. The blast of wind is so powerful that

I'm just nit-picking but I would think a halfing would be less prone to being blown over... A human with double the area would have double the drag, or a horc three times the drag.

[Xenostrata]

Also, I was assuming the "most" was referring to mind-affecting knockdowns like command. A person really good at staying on their feet might lose that ability if they are forced to knock themselves down, but should keep mobility if they are in control of their own actions.

[fyrst.grok]

I'm just nit-picking but I would think a halfing would be less prone to being blown over... A human with double the area would have double the drag, or a horc three times the drag.

Feetsize gentlemen! turning your side against the wind direction will negate most area-pressure difference, but the strenght difference (pressing up against the wind) plus the size of the feet (the actual grip on the on surface in question) will result in smaller creatures go bye bye..

If in doubt, start knocking over you sisters kids.. Then her husband to get some usable statistic values.. It's all in the name of fantasy-science and sacrifices must be made!

[FuzzyDuck81]

If in doubt, start knocking over you sisters kids.. Then her husband to get some usable statistic values.. It's all in the name of fantasy-science and sacrifices must be made!

we're doing science!

FOR SCIENCE!

:)

....i've been playing portal 2 too much recently

[Gleep_Wurp]

/not signed

[Sillk]

yes

/signed

it's not game breaking, and it is supposed to be part of the reward for taking the PrE to begin with.

An Acrobat can't Frenzy, can't fire off Slayer Arrows, or Power Surge.... but he should at least be able to stand up when the Titan hits the ground. I'd give 'em that.

[redoubt]

I may not know all the details of the savants, but it makes sense that an air savant is immune to winds (air) type knockdowns. Are they supposed to be immune to ALL knockdowns?

Makes sense that acrobats would be immune to ground shake knockdowns like the titan.

How are we (you) determining what they are supposed to be immune to? (I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just don't have either class, but I am curious about the mechanics of it.)

[Calebro]

Calebro, where did you get those descriptions?

Umm.... those descriptions are in fact links. I answered that question before you asked it.

[katz]

its in the description in the compendium. he linked it.

[Calebro]

I'm just nit-picking but I would think a halfing would be less prone to being blown over... A human with double the area would have double the drag, or a horc three times the drag.

It isn't about drag, it's about mass.
Which gets blown over by a strong wing: A dumpster, or a box of cereal?
The dumpster has much more drag....

A halfling weighs around 30 pounds or so, while a human weighs around 6 or 7 times that. So the human has twice the drag, but 6x the mass to hold him in place, making him 3x as stable as the halfling against that hurricane's force.

[Cardtrick]

It isn't about drag, it's about mass.
Which gets blown over by a strong wing: A dumpster, or a box of cereal?
The dumpster has much more drag....

If you want to get technical about it, it's not just the drag and mass but also the moment of inertia. An object's moment of inertia determines how much energy is required to rotate it, and takes into account both the mass of an object and its size/shape.

It would be mass if we were concerned with moving an object that was free in space, with no rotation. Since in fact there's a friction force at the ground (the halfling's feet have a force trying to keep them in place against the ground), the movement going to involve rotation (if you get knocked over, your upper body pivots about your feet, although there may also be a transverse component with the whole body moving in space).

The mass is a factor in the moment of inertia, but the shape matters too. For example a solid, uniform disk and hoop (think frisbee and hula hoop) that have the same mass are not equally difficult to rotate -- the disk will require half the energy input to achieve the same level of rotational momentum.

And drag actually matters as well, since it determines the force input on the object.

Simplifying things here, and assuming the halflings are roughly the same shape and density as other beings, but shorter gives us a couple of useful facts:
The halfling's volume varies as its length cubed, so a human that was twice as tall as a halfling would be 2^3 = 8 times as voluminous.
If they're roughly the same density, we can say that the human would weight 8 times as much as the halfling.
The surface area, on the other hand, goes as the square of the height, so the human would have 4 times the area.
The area affects the drag, and therefore the force on the object, so the human would experience 4 times the force from the wind.

So we have that the halfling gets 1/4 the force of something twice its height, but only has 1/8 their mass. Already, this means that it can expect twice the acceleration.

Now, probably the best simple analog for a halfling's moment of inertia (certainly not going to calculate it exactly) would be a rod being rotated about it's end, which has a moment of inertia of (M*L^2)/3 (M is the mass, L is the length of the rod -- or height of the halfling). So, the human would have ((4M) * (2L)^2)/3 or 16*( M*L^2)/3. That is, the human takes 16 times the amount of energy to rotate as the halfling.

We've already established that the force from the wind is going to be 4 times as great for the human as the halfling, but for rotation we're concerned with the torque, rather than the force. The torque takes into account the distance the force is operating from the object's center of mass, which will be twice as great for the human as for the halfling, so the human actually experiences 8 times the rotational torque of the halfling.

But, since the human *also* has 16 times the halfling's moment of inertia, it actually experience 8/16 or 1/2 the angular acceleration.

Ultimately, then, we have that the halfling receives twice the acceleration and twice the rotational acceleration of a humanoid being twice its height.

All of which was my unnecessarily longwinded way of agreeing and saying that the developers had it right:

A halfling really would be easier to blow over with a strong gust of wind than a taller character.

[Calebro]

All of which was my unnecessarily longwinded way of agreeing and saying that the developers had it right:

A halfling really would be easier to blow over with a strong gust of wind than a taller character.

lol
+1 for all the technical stuffz that I was trying to avoid. :D

[Xenostrata]

Umm.... those descriptions are in fact links. I answered that question before you asked it.

Missed it, was in fact using a mobile device (bad screen, missed underline and thought you had just colored red for effect).

That doesn't change the fact that Air Savants are in fact immune to slippery surfaces, and that as vague as "most knockdown effects" is the most obvious answer would be "physical knockdown effects are blocked, mental ones are not."

So the current description is half wrong and half vague.

I can see the raid boss effect getting through immunities as part of the game mechanic, but other titans should not. Also, there is no reason that someone with the skill (thief acrobats) or innate stability (air savants) shouldn't be able to stay up on unstable ground. Being surefooted enough to avoid any trip should at least help against earthquakes, and the supernatural ability to stay standing should apply to anything that doesn't have a specific (magical) way of bypassing it (raid boss abilities, mind-affecting instead of physical).

On the case of knockdown immune halflings, does anyone know if they are immune to cyclonic blast? If they are, then gust of wind is probably just an oversight by the devs. Knocking over halflings without KI makes sense (and is hilarious) but if a normal sized toon can be immune to knockdown from cyclonic blast, then a halfling can be immune to gust of wind as well.


/not signed

Could you elaborate about why?

[Calebro]

Missed it, was in fact using a mobile device (bad screen, missed underline and thought you had just colored red for effect).

That doesn't change the fact that Air Savants are in fact immune to slippery surfaces, and that as vague as "most knockdown effects" is the most obvious answer would be "physical knockdown effects are blocked, mental ones are not."

So the current description is half wrong and half vague.

That is your personal interpretation as to how it should work, which obviously clashes with what the Devs had in mind for it.
Your OP suggested that the Devs' current implementation be changed, and I simply explained the reasoning behind their decisions.


On the case of knockdown immune halflings, does anyone know if they are immune to cyclonic blast? If they are, then gust of wind is probably just an oversight by the devs. Knocking over halflings without KI makes sense (and is hilarious) but if a normal sized toon can be immune to knockdown from cyclonic blast, then a halfling can be immune to gust of wind as well.
Cyclonic Blast has a damage component, whereas Gust of Wind does not. That's the difference between them.

[Alavatar]

...



Remember the Titans.

[Waylayer]

I have found that Thraak Hounds have a breath weapon, that regularly knocks down my Air Savant; annoying doesn't begin to describe it.

On the + side; eventually the dang "Parasitic Breastplate" will drop; and I will quit ransacking "In the Flesh" ...

[Cardtrick]

lol
+1 for all the technical stuffz that I was trying to avoid. :D

Haha, that's what you get when someone gets a physics degree. Sometimes I miss basic physics and apply it in pointless places.

[pasterqb]

Its the same with Acrobats too. Immune to slippery surfaces, trip, and knockdown effects but hit by titan knockdown. Only way to become immune to Warforged Titan's hammer is to get over 45 balance.

Or be a Warforged Titan yourself ^_^

[GotSomeQuestions]

That doesn't change the fact that Air Savants are in fact immune to slippery surfaces
Huh? While my savant does not fall down when there's grease or ice around, I'll still slide around, and I can't jump. That's hardly comparable to the full immunity you get from, e.g., Freedom of Movement.

[fluffybunnywilson]

It isn't about drag, it's about mass.
Which gets blown over by a strong wing: A dumpster, or a box of cereal?
The dumpster has much more drag....

A halfling weighs around 30 pounds or so, while a human weighs around 6 or 7 times that. So the human has twice the drag, but 6x the mass to hold him in place, making him 3x as stable as the halfling against that hurricane's force.

It's all about the volume to surface area ratio, boyeeee!

[Jonny_D]

all Warforged Titans are the same. Whether raid boss or not, there is nothing special about the Titan in the twilight forge beyond the rediculous "shields" which make no sense in magical setting if they can be knocked out physically , except that it was the first one we saw in DDO.

Some people are over estimating the Power of the Raid boss compared to other WF titans in the game. They are powerful, however they are not so powerful as to be overwhelming to level 16+ characters atleast not at he size they are in DDO. A tarrasque they are not ;)

and air savants and thief acro's should be immune to Titan's knockdown

[RangerOne]

It's all about the volume to surface area ratio, boyeeee!

So it's not a question of where he grips it?

Or are we not talking about coconuts?

[Xenostrata]

That is your personal interpretation as to how it should work, which obviously clashes with what the Devs had in mind for it.
Your OP suggested that the Devs' current implementation be changed, and I simply explained the reasoning behind their decisions.


Cyclonic Blast has a damage component, whereas Gust of Wind does not. That's the difference between them.

Not necessarily. Sometimes code is forgetten, leading to unintended consequences - the devs could have simply forgotten to include the titan's attack when coding knockdown immunities.

I don't see how a damage component would make something easier to be immune to. If anything, a small gust of wind on a halfling should be easier to resist than a damaging gale on a normal sized character.

[Xenostrata]

Huh? While my savant does not fall down when there's grease or ice around, I'll still slide around, and I can't jump. That's hardly comparable to the full immunity you get from, e.g., Freedom of Movement.

Was running SoS when someone cast a grease on a shrine, and it caused me no problems. I didn't try jumping though, maybe we get no knockdowns and normal run speed but no jumps and issues with inclined planes.

[Calebro]

Not necessarily. Sometimes code is forgetten, leading to unintended consequences - the devs could have simply forgotten to include the titan's attack when coding knockdown immunities.

I don't see how a damage component would make something easier to be immune to. If anything, a small gust of wind on a halfling should be easier to resist than a damaging gale on a normal sized character.

No code was forgotten. This has been discussed many many times over before your thread was started. The Devs are aware that the Titan's knockdown effect isn't stopped by Acro2 or Air Savant3. This isn't news to them.

The damage component doesn't make it easier to be immune to. The damage component makes it so that the spell has a different primary effect. Cyclonic Blast's primary effect is damage. Gust of Wind's primary effect is a knockdown or slow.
Gust of Wind also specifically states in it's description that small creatures get knocked down by it. Kip Up makes a general statement that you are immune to most knockdown effects. Most knockdown effects do not specify a specific circumstance. Most of them simply state that there is a chance to be knocked down, but no specifics are given. Specific almost always trumps generic. In this case, the spell trumps the ability.

[Xenostrata]

.The damage component doesn't make it easier to be immune to. The damage component makes it so that the spell has a different primary effect. Cyclonic Blast's primary effect is damage. Gust of Wind's primary effect is a knockdown or slow.
Gust of Wind also specifically states in it's description that small creatures get knocked down by it. Kip Up makes a general statement that you are immune to most knockdown effects. Most knockdown effects do not specify a specific circumstance. Most of them simply state that there is a chance to be knocked down, but no specifics are given. Specific almost always trumps generic. In this case, the spell trumps the ability.

And you accused me of over-interpretation. The fact that gust of wind only works on small characters should have no effect on whether special immunities block it. Gust of wind's specificity on its targets is because, due to its weakness, it is incapable of knocking over normal sized creatures or larger. If halflings are able to be immune to cyclonic blast, a much stronger wind, then they should be immune to the weaker version as well. The fact that cyclonic blast does damage does not mean it is more easily resisted, it means that the gust is more powerful and so should be equally or more difficult to resist.

[Angelus_dead]

That is your personal interpretation as to how it should work, which obviously clashes with what the Devs had in mind for it.
Not only is that not obvious, and not only is it not true, but it is the opposite of the most probable explanation.

To say that something being present in DDO is proof that the developers intended it to be that way simply doesn't work.

Acrobat and Air Savant should properly be immune to all knockdowns except those based on Will (Command) or Fortitude (Wrack).

[FastTaco]

smart guy stuff


Are you sure? What if... nevermind I think you nailed it.

[Seikojin]

I thought what the titans do is similar to overrun. But either way, the description says most, not all, and the number of encounters with titans is few.

[Zaodon]

Remember the Titans!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BVh15jJnnq4/SHRyKCfRgwI/AAAAAAAABXQ/fs__xaDAHjI/s400/The%2BTitans.jpg