Post U9 balace of power shift. MINII > LITII?

[Seamonkeysix]

Pre U9, it seems like the mathmatical consensus was that for most mobs in the game, the LitII Khopesh was superior to the MinII Khopesh. A very good player that I know and respect was trying to explain to me how U9 has shifted the overall playing field back to the MinII. Honestly, without seeing it on paper, I wasn't getting the change.

I guess the basic question is this: Post U9, would you craft a MinII or LitII Khopesh if you had to choose between the two?

[Darkrok]

I'm trying to think of what he could possibly mean on existing content but I'm coming up blank.

The only things I could think of off-hand were savants and new content. As we don't have any new raids or epics I don't think that was the reference and savants would slightly favor LITII I would think.

[Seamonkeysix]

I'm trying to think of what he could possibly mean on existing content but I'm coming up blank.

The only things I could think of off-hand were savants and new content. As we don't have any new raids or epics I don't think that was the reference and savants would slightly favor LITII I would think.

That's what I was thinking. If anything, I would think LitII would pull further ahead. I doubt there will be many Earth Savants vs. end-game bosses. The way I understood it was that bosses immunities are lowered to elemental damage, and that is the same with trash mobs. I thought his point was that in non-epics, MinII was going to greatly outshine LitII. I am pretty much TRing a toon that will be mainly in epics, so LitII still sounds more appealing, but I thought maybe I was missing a twist from U9 about MinIIs.

Honestly, with the introduction of crafting, I was more inclined to make a few boss beaters on the crafting table and go LitII across the board from now on. Just didn't want to do something dumb if there was a change I didn't catch!

[psymun]

I guess the basic question is this: Post U9, would you craft a MinII or LitII Khopesh if you had to choose between the two?

LitII still does much more overall damage than MinII

For most of my melee characters, I find a Metalline/PG or Holy/Silver weapon and then make LitII weaponry. If I get to MinII I get to it.

For me, MinII is situational. I typically only use it against bosses. HOWEVER, with Update 9 and 10 having mindflayer bosses, you then need Byeshk to bypass their damage reduction, and you need Lawful (which neither LitII nor MinII have) for Tharak Hounds.

However, the DR on even the ELITE Mindflayer boss is so low that I don't see a reason to really worry about a MinII for that specific reason. I'd still stick with a LitII.

[theKman]

LitII still does much more overall damage than MinII

For most of my melee characters, I find a Metalline/PG or Holy/Silver weapon and then make LitII weaponry. If I get to MinII I get to it.

For me, MinII is situational. I typically only use it against bosses. HOWEVER, with Update 9 and 10 having mindflayer bosses, you then need Byeshk to bypass their damage reduction, and you need Lawful (which neither LitII nor MinII have) for Tharak Hounds.

However, the DR on even the ELITE Mindflayer boss is so low that I don't see a reason to really worry about a MinII for that specific reason. I'd still stick with a LitII.

I have the same setup, current Metalline Puregood and Holyburst Silver for Harry, etc. and part way through building both a LitII and MinII.

For the new content tho, I have twin Dream Edges handy, the "Aligned" makes it really useful in there.

[Rydlic]

Pre U9, it seems like the mathmatical consensus was that for most mobs in the game, the LitII Khopesh was superior to the MinII Khopesh. A very good player that I know and respect was trying to explain to me how U9 has shifted the overall playing field back to the MinII. Honestly, without seeing it on paper, I wasn't getting the change.

I guess the basic question is this: Post U9, would you craft a MinII or LitII Khopesh if you had to choose between the two?

The shift may come from the fact that Devils have had their Acid Resistance removed, thus increasing the damage output of Min II by a substantial amount.

Before the Electric damage done by procs would make up for the damage soaked by dr, but now with the Acid damage at full + Slicing it seems that A Min II Holy, Acid burst, Acid Blast could really take on a Lit II in the over all.

Lit II proc ~2% of the time and it can proc alot, or just not at all. This could bring the Min II at to, or above, the lvl of sustained damage vs a Lit II.

[Morosy]

The shift may come from the fact that Devils have had their Acid Resistance removed

This right here is why I was wondering why so many were crafting those +4 Holy Silver of Eob's if they already had mineral II's. Of course the ones who didn't have Min II it was great but as far as I can tell the ones who were switching were either downgrading or not gaining anything.

Edit: Although after 9.1 I think you'd actually go up to Greater Lawful/Chaotic Oustsider Bane, at which point it might be worth switching (or of course starting out with for those in the future who haven't made Minerall II)

[Seamonkeysix]

The shift may come from the fact that Devils have had their Acid Resistance removed, thus increasing the damage output of Min II by a substantial amount.

Before the Electric damage done by procs would make up for the damage soaked by dr, but now with the Acid damage at full + Slicing it seems that A Min II Holy, Acid burst, Acid Blast could really take on a Lit II in the over all.

Lit II proc ~2% of the time and it can proc alot, or just not at all. This could bring the Min II at to, or above, the lvl of sustained damage vs a Lit II.

This sounds pretty much like the discussion we had. Lowered resistance to acid changed the dynamic. I think I can go along with the idea that during a TR, the MinII will outshine the LitII in a lot of content in mid to mid-high level quests. It just seems like at end-game, LitII is still the most bang for your buck.

But like I said, I am no math major! I might have it all backwards on this, and I really don't wanna go 3rd tier on 2 GS khopeshes in the next 24 hours and kick myself for it.

[Morosy]

This sounds pretty much like the discussion we had. Lowered resistance to acid changed the dynamic. I think I can go along with the idea that during a TR, the MinII will outshine the LitII in a lot of content in mid to mid-high level quests. It just seems like at end-game, LitII is still the most bang for your buck.

But like I said, I am no math major! I might have it all backwards on this, and I really don't wanna go 3rd tier on 2 GS khopeshes in the next 24 hours and kick myself for it.

Yea, the only that that would have changed is that Min II might actually be more damage vs. raid boss on normal(well for glancing blow guys it already was) . Everything else is still as it was.

[Wizard_Zero]

Me personally, from this point on:

Lit II from Shroud for 95% of the game.

+4 Silver/Holy + (bane) from House K crafting for everything else.

[Shade]

IMO it was always min2 > lit2.

Because bosses were always what counted.

Whens the last time you failed shroud on part1 because you couldn't kill the trash fast enough..
Or ToD on the initial trash fights?

Doesn't happen.
Groups do fail because of lack of boss dps.

And it's not just pitfiends/horned devils, min2 can handle a ton of boss dr..
VoN5 epic - Arrach night, pretty high DR/adamantine.
Abbot/Sorjek - blunt dr, which could be your lit2.. but yea,, lichs immune to lightning, but not acid. So a blunt min2 is quite effective.
Queen Lailat - no acid resist anymore either.. immune to lightning.
Lots more.

So yea, craft the weapon that matters most first, and thats min2. Acid is just an all around better elemnt now that they pretty much nulifiied all enemie acid resistance (not just pit fiends, most all fiendish creatures lost there acid resist)

Make lit2 after that.

oh and "well the new crafting lets you make a +3 holy burst GLOB, thats better... It's not better. Heres the numbers:
+3 HB GLOB Greataxe vs pitfiend:
Average Hit Damage
101 = 78-89(Weapon) + 17.5(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
312 = 264-297(Weapon) + 31.5(Bonus)

Final Averaged Swing
107.2 = 89.175(Weapon) + 18.025(Bonus)
Min2 Greataxe:
Average Hit Damage
99.5 = 78-93(Weapon) + 14(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
322.5 = 264-309(Weapon) + 36(Bonus)

Average Natural 20 Damage
336.5 = 264-309(Weapon) + 50(Bonus)

Final Averaged Swing
107.475 = 91.27499(Weapon) + 16.2(Bonus)

Pretty **** close, but min2 wins. Also doesn't factor glancing blows, which would pull min2 further ahead.

[ProdigalGuru]

<snip>... I really don't wanna go 3rd tier on 2 GS khopeshes in the next 24 hours and kick myself for it.

Seriously?

You are afraid you are going to regret swinging dual Min2 Khopeshes?

Really?

[arjiwan]

I have two melee friends, one is level 20 FB barb with MinII GA, and one level 20 Pally KotC with Falchion Lit2.

Note: We are not planning to TR.

Normal Shroud, yes the Lit2 is awesome for my pally friend. For Queen Lailat she uses her Holy Sword.
My friend barb uses min2 on both occasions. But on elite quests, like vale, pally uses Holy Sword. I have a feeling that the lit2 is not that awesome for a non-TR-in-the-future level 20.

How about in Amrath? Will the Lit2 be viable? Because the pally feels she is still using her HS more than the Lit2. Any thoughts?

[sirgog]

Lit 2 Khopesh = best one handed weapon in the game for almost everything

Min 2 Khopesh = a more expensive, inferior version of the +4 holy silver lawful outsider bane khopesh you can craft in House K with mid-level crafting skills.

[aristarchus1000]

I have two melee friends, one is level 20 FB barb with MinII GA, and one level 20 Pally KotC with Falchion Lit2.

Note: We are not planning to TR.

Normal Shroud, yes the Lit2 is awesome for my pally friend. For Queen Lailat she uses her Holy Sword.
My friend barb uses min2 on both occasions. But on elite quests, like vale, pally uses Holy Sword. I have a feeling that the lit2 is not that awesome for a non-TR-in-the-future level 20.

How about in Amrath? Will the Lit2 be viable? Because the pally feels she is still using her HS more than the Lit2. Any thoughts?

On anything that doesn't have DR, and is not immune to lightning, Lit2 will win.

If it has DR, that's is where it used to be confusing. In a non-glancing blow character, Lit2s were better than Min2s on normal Shroud/VoD/ToD bosses pre-update 9. After update 9, Min2 have definitely pulled ahead against bosses with DR.

Which you build first is up to you, but Min2s have gotten better against the devil bosses. If in doubt, I'd probably build the Min2 first.

[kernal42]

I already have MinIIs.

Once I finish my second LitII and get a few more levels in crafting, I'll have:
2x +4 holy silver khopesh of EOB - Devil raid bosses
2x MinII khopesh - Demon Queen
2x LitII Khopesh - everything else

I could really do without the MinII at this point. I guess if I TR it'll be nice to go without imp crit for a few more levels.

IMO, the only place for MinII now is for tanks that need the third tier for +4 insight AC or +2 exceptional stat.

Cheers,
Kernal

[sirgog]

I already have MinIIs.

Once I finish my second LitII and get a few more levels in crafting, I'll have:
2x +4 holy silver khopesh of EOB - Devil raid bosses
2x MinII khopesh - Demon Queen
2x LitII Khopesh - everything else

I could really do without the MinII at this point. I guess if I TR it'll be nice to go without imp crit for a few more levels.

IMO, the only place for MinII now is for tanks that need the third tier for +4 insight AC or +2 exceptional stat.

Cheers,
Kernal

For Lailat, just craft a +4 holy cold iron EOB (or COB), then in the offhand, either the same weapon, or +4 Holy Cold Iron of Destruction.

[Jaid314]

For Lailat, just craft a +4 holy cold iron EOB (or COB), then in the offhand, either the same weapon, or +4 Holy Cold Iron of Destruction.

i'm confused... why would you go with destruction (-4 to AC), when GCOB/GEOB adds +4 to hit as well as adding 3d6 + 4 to damage?

let someone using a less awesome weapon get destruction if needed.

[sirgog]

i'm confused... why would you go with destruction (-4 to AC), when GCOB/GEOB adds +4 to hit as well as adding 3d6 + 4 to damage?

let someone using a less awesome weapon get destruction if needed.

Because Destruction is a buff to damage for the whole party (except the highest To-Hit classes), and a big one, against a 66AC boss.

Of course, if someone has it on their DT armor, then it's irrelevant. Depends if you run eDQ2 mainly in PUGs (can't rely on someone else having Destruction and can't rely on people having the To-Hit) or in guild groups (where it's less needed and you probably have someone with Destruction DT)

[sephiroth1084]

I thought the acid resistance was only removed from demons.

[Jaid314]

Because Destruction is a buff to damage for the whole party (except the highest To-Hit classes), and a big one, against a 66AC boss.

Of course, if someone has it on their DT armor, then it's irrelevant. Depends if you run eDQ2 mainly in PUGs (can't rely on someone else having Destruction and can't rely on people having the To-Hit) or in guild groups (where it's less needed and you probably have someone with Destruction DT)

i see... i tend to assume the best person to be swinging the destruction weapon is the person who hardly ever hits anyways. so for example... my spellsinger bard with really gimpy melee? should totally be swinging around a destruction/improved destruction weapon, because honestly it's the most useful thing he can do in the fight when he's hitting only once every 10 seconds or so anyways. but if you're serious enough about your melee to be swinging dual <alignment(burst)> <metal> khopeshes of Greater <alignment> Outsider Bane at things... well, let's just say i don't think you're the best choice to be surrendering personal DPS just to proc an effect that works on every hit with no saves and lasts a minute.

i'll gladly trade in the tiny DPS my bard might be able to pull off if it means increasing the real melee's damage. then, after spending my 5-10 seconds in melee per minute, i'll go back to supporting the healers or something like that. (note: this is not intended to be bashing on bard melee DPS... i am fully aware that a bard can be at least a reasonably good melee DPS if built and geared for it. mine, however, has iirc a fully buffed strength around 22ish, and absolutely no melee feats whatsoever because i focused on casting....)

[Mistycball]

Lit 2 Khopesh = best one handed weapon in the game for almost everything

Min 2 Khopesh = a more expensive, inferior version of the +4 holy silver lawful outsider bane khopesh you can craft in House K with mid-level crafting skills.


i have 2 litII for trash, 2 triple positive for undead and one mineral II and a +4 holy silver eviloutsider bane for bosses.

If you want to max dmg you need too much plat ;)

[sirgog]

i see... i tend to assume the best person to be swinging the destruction weapon is the person who hardly ever hits anyways. so for example... my spellsinger bard with really gimpy melee? should totally be swinging around a destruction/improved destruction weapon, because honestly it's the most useful thing he can do in the fight when he's hitting only once every 10 seconds or so anyways. but if you're serious enough about your melee to be swinging dual <alignment(burst)> <metal> khopeshes of Greater <alignment> Outsider Bane at things... well, let's just say i don't think you're the best choice to be surrendering personal DPS just to proc an effect that works on every hit with no saves and lasts a minute.

i'll gladly trade in the tiny DPS my bard might be able to pull off if it means increasing the real melee's damage. then, after spending my 5-10 seconds in melee per minute, i'll go back to supporting the healers or something like that. (note: this is not intended to be bashing on bard melee DPS... i am fully aware that a bard can be at least a reasonably good melee DPS if built and geared for it. mine, however, has iirc a fully buffed strength around 22ish, and absolutely no melee feats whatsoever because i focused on casting....)

I think of it this way - if the offhand Chaotic Outsider Bane adds 15 to my personal DPS, and keeping Destruction up adds nothing to my DPS, but adds 30 to the DPS of each of the six less geared melees in the group - the Destruction weapon is more than ten times the DPS gain that the COB would be.

Of course, that assumes you can't rely on someone else doing it.

It's also better overall DPS for the low To-Hit person to use Banes and the high To-Hit to do the Destruction.

[tekkentroop]

Min II greataxe is definitely the first greensteel item im going for, just because of its versatility. It will do decent damage in almost all situations, which is good since I wont be able to spend millions of plat for shroud ingredients or crafting essences for 5+ weapon sets anytime soon.

If you wonder why greataxe and no falchion: my main is a dwarf.

[Seamonkeysix]

Seriously?

You are afraid you are going to regret swinging dual Min2 Khopeshes?

Really?

It's more along the lines of the fact that I have limited resources and I am crafting 3 Tier 3 GS weapons (2 Khopeshes and 1 Long Bow). So at the end of the day, we are talking about 15 LDS, 15 L. Shrap, 15ish Large Stones, ect...

With no way to deconstruct GS, I would prefer to ask some questions, make sure I am crafting what will be most viable when it's all said and done. I'd rather not "go with my gut" when we are talking about over 80 larges. :)

[sweez]

I thought the acid resistance was only removed from demons.

Me too; has anyone, actually, y'know, tested this?

[fluffybunnywilson]

I see people saying that Devils had their Acid resistance removed, but I took a MinII into the Shroud yesterday and saw all 0's for my Acid damage against Harry.

Trash devils may have had their Acid resistance removed, but at least Harry seems to have kept it.

[fluffybunnywilson]

I think of it this way - if the offhand Chaotic Outsider Bane adds 15 to my personal DPS, and keeping Destruction up adds nothing to my DPS, but adds 30 to the DPS of each of the six less geared melees in the group - the Destruction weapon is more than ten times the DPS gain that the COB would be.

Of course, that assumes you can't rely on someone else doing it.

It's also better overall DPS for the low To-Hit person to use Banes and the high To-Hit to do the Destruction.

My Kensai has no troubles hitting anything he comes across, but I do have a destruction/improved destruction weapon pair. Against high AC enemies, I swing with those for a second or two and then switch to my target appropriate weapons.

Destruction and Improved Destruction last for a while and they do not stack with any Destruction and Improved Destruction that other characters may be bringing to the party.

When the blue coloring on the boss fades, you can switch back to the Destruction/Improved Destruction for a while. If the blue coloring never fades, then someone else in the party is probably weilding Destruction/Improved Destruction and you don't need to.

[grodon9999]

I thought the acid resistance was only removed from demons.

Yeah - devils are still acid resistant.

[2x4]

Hello gents and Ladies,

I read this thread this morning and then logged into DDO to play a quest b4 work. I ran 1 of the new Xoriat quests (One with beholder end boss, gathering evidence of the warforge dude) I apologize for not knowing the name as this was only my second time running it. (On Hard with my Toon and a hire)

At the first chest (the one surrounded by water behind a barred doorway) I got a rapier, think it was called transmuting rapier but it had lots of attributes.

My Toon has GS MinII and LitII (yes I got for the AC as I am AC build) weaps (at Tier 2) 2 weap Khopesh.

After I got this Rapier I started thinking about this thread since it is talking about my 2 GS weap choices. So I made a weap quick bar with MinII and the rapier and one with the LitII and the Rapier and switched between them for the rest of the quest, to end boss. This is not a perfect experiment but I found that the MinII Rapier combo did more damage than the LitII Rapier combo.

Just thought I would share this as it seemed on this topic.

[kernal42]

For Lailat, just craft a +4 holy cold iron EOB (or COB), then in the offhand, either the same weapon, or +4 Holy Cold Iron of Destruction.

Because I already have the MinIIs, I probably won't bother here. Plus, MinII will out-dps the +4 holy cold iron of EOB if her acid resistance is gone.

I have crafted a +4 holy longbow of destruction (large guild slot) to get her off the platform. A few shots from that should keep her destructed for most of the fight.

-Kernal

[Qezuzu]

The shift may come from the fact that Devils have had their Acid Resistance removed, thus increasing the damage output of Min II by a substantial amount.

Queen Lailat, other Mariliths, and maybe some other demons have had their acid resistance removed.

I am 100% sure I was seeing yellow numbers on harry on my Earth Savant's first shroud. And I am 100% sure I was seeing orange (purple) numbers on Lailat.

Queen Lailat has always been immune to electricity, LitII's were never strong on her.

[-Zephyr-]

It's more along the lines of the fact that I have limited resources and I am crafting 3 Tier 3 GS weapons (2 Khopeshes and 1 Long Bow). So at the end of the day, we are talking about 15 LDS, 15 L. Shrap, 15ish Large Stones, ect...

With no way to deconstruct GS, I would prefer to ask some questions, make sure I am crafting what will be most viable when it's all said and done. I'd rather not "go with my gut" when we are talking about over 80 larges. :)

the question should not even be asked for the longbow. Go lit 2. Because a lit 2 bow with silver/cold iron will give you all the DR bypassing you need.

[Chai]

So yea, craft the weapon that matters most first, and thats min2. Acid is just an all around better elemnt now that they pretty much nulifiied all enemie acid resistance (not just pit fiends, most all fiendish creatures lost there acid resist)



I believe in the logic of crafting what matters most, but I am not so sure that its mineral 2. Depends on the gear already attained I guess. What does the toon already have solutions for?

Devil bosses seemed to still have acid resistance last time I raided, which was a few days ago. DQ was always immune to lightning so people (should have) always had a solution for that other than lightning 2. Now mineral 2 can be that solution. Cold iron/good weapons have always been fairly cheap, even for the good ones.

I dont think I would feel too guilty with making one decision then having someone show me the numbers that something else is ahead by a few points after an update. Its better than hoarding the larges with the fear that Turbine will change their game making your choice second best (which has happened at least a few times now :p )

[Khanyth]

One is a Ferrari, one is a Porsche.

Both are awesome, but in different ways that make people take sides and have preferences.

Nevertheless, both will still get you looks from hot hot chicks when your using them because you will be that awesome.

[Alektronic]

demon ?= devil or pit fiend

U9 did away with acid resistance on demons not devils. Therefore, Lailat, Hezrous, hounds, etc... won't have acid resistance. However, bearded devils, orthons, Harry, Suulo, etc... still have acid resistance.

[sweez]

Queen Lailat, other Mariliths, and maybe some other demons have had their acid resistance removed.

I am 100% sure I was seeing yellow numbers on harry on my Earth Savant's first shroud. And I am 100% sure I was seeing orange (purple) numbers on Lailat.

Queen Lailat has always been immune to electricity, LitII's were never strong on her.

Okay, then just another misunderstanding based on the fact that a lot of people who play Dungeons & Dragons Online can't differentiate between a devil and a demon :rolleyes:

[kernal42]

demon ?= devil or pit fiend

U9 did away with acid resistance on demons not devils. Therefore, Lailat, Hezrous, Orthons, hounds, etc... won't have acid resistance. However, bearded devils, Harry, Suulo, etc... still have acid resistance.

Orthons are devils, not demons.
It would be unlikely for them to be fighting together with bearded devils, and present in devil strongholds, otherwise.

-Kernal

[DeathsApprentice]

demon ?= devil or pit fiend

U9 did away with acid resistance on demons not devils. Therefore, Lailat, Hezrous, Orthons, hounds, etc... won't have acid resistance. However, bearded devils, Harry, Suulo, etc... still have acid resistance.
Aren't Orthons devils?

Edit: Yes, they are (ninja'd)

[Jaid314]

I think of it this way - if the offhand Chaotic Outsider Bane adds 15 to my personal DPS, and keeping Destruction up adds nothing to my DPS, but adds 30 to the DPS of each of the six less geared melees in the group - the Destruction weapon is more than ten times the DPS gain that the COB would be.

Of course, that assumes you can't rely on someone else doing it.

It's also better overall DPS for the low To-Hit person to use Banes and the high To-Hit to do the Destruction.

that might be true if both are actually melees. in the case of my bard, while i can swing a weapon and hit occasionally, i am definitely not a good melee. by far the greatest contribution i can give in the form of melee combat is to swing a destruction or improved destruction weapon. swinging a greater bane simply wouldn't even come close.

on the other hand, i can certainly understand wanting to be prepared for the possibility that those who are only really any good for support melee don't realise that fact. personally, my bard packs around a few support weapons specifically for that reason; it's about the only useful thing i can do. but i suppose if you have the standard "two clerics who think they both need to be spamming mass heals at the same time in every fight" or an evoker FvS who doesn't realise that their 3/4 BAB will let them keep the boss destructed while they wait for their searing light and divine punishment cooldowns, then yeah... i suppose it's better for one of the actually solid melees to be swinging a destruction weapon than it is for nobody to be swinging one.

[Seamonkeysix]

the question should not even be asked for the longbow. Go lit 2. Because a lit 2 bow with silver/cold iron will give you all the DR bypassing you need.

Yep. I was always going to go LitII with the bow, because I can shoot DR breakers either way and the strikes + slayer arrows = profit!

This is going on a 1st life TR "Helves Angel" build. I blew it when I TR'd from an FvS to this build and didn't have tier 3 khopeshes. The plan was craft some boss beaters for when DR is a factor and go LitII on both Khopeshes. I think there was some confusion on what the resistances were going to look like, and that's where the debate came in.

I had another monster build that was swinging one of each...but that was pre-crafting. I think I am still sold on the LitII as the overall best bet for a tier3 GS Khopesh. I like the MinII, but being able to craft Holy EOB weapons has sort of sent me away from the MinII line.

[theKman]

I tend to agree that LitII is the way to go.. but will still make a MinII as they are really quite a handy thing to have available..

[Razcar]

Lit 2 Khopesh = best one handed weapon in the game for almost everything

Min 2 Khopesh = a more expensive, inferior version of the +4 holy silver lawful outsider bane khopesh you can craft in House K with mid-level crafting skills.
What's inferior about the Min II compared to the bane? Yes the crafted weapon will have +1 to hit against (edit: ) Lawful Outsiders. But if you just compare the weapons, a Min II with Acid Burst & Blast will do 16% more DPS on a devil, and 10% more on a devil boss with 50% Fort, now that they are vulnerable to acid.

Another situationally nice aspect of Min II is that if you are short on feats and melee might not be your only feather in your hat, such on a TWF FvS or bard, the saved feat because of Keen can be valuable.

Also you will have to craft more Bane's for other mobs the Mineral II's could take care of, which is especially painful if prefer to spend your gaming time somewhere else than in front of an altar working on your carpal tunnel syndrome.

Yes, Lit II does more damage, and I would generally craft a Lit II above a Min II as well, but I wouldn't write off Min II's so categorically - especially compared to the "new" crafted weapons.

[Moltier]

What's inferior about the Min II compared to the bane? Yes the crafted weapon will have +1 to hit against (edit: ) Lawful Outsiders. But if you just compare the weapons, a Min II with Acid Burst & Blast will do 16% more DPS on a devil, and 10% more on a devil boss with 50% Fort, now that they are vulnerable to acid.

Another situationally nice aspect of Min II is that if you are short on feats and melee might not be your only feather in your hat, such on a TWF FvS or bard, the saved feat because of Keen can be valuable.

Also you will have to craft more Bane's for other mobs the Mineral II's could take care of, which is especially painful if prefer to spend your gaming time somewhere else than in front of an altar working on your carpal tunnel syndrome.

Yes, Lit II does more damage, and I would generally craft a Lit II above a Min II as well, but I wouldn't write off Min II's so categorically - especially compared to the "new" crafted weapons.

Demons lost their acid resist, not the devils. So the crafted weapon wins, and it can be even better with higher crafting skills.
Min2 remains the best overall weapon. I would craft one if i could bear green weapons. :P

[fluffybunnywilson]

What's inferior about the Min II compared to the bane? Yes the crafted weapon will have +1 to hit against (edit: ) Lawful Outsiders. But if you just compare the weapons, a Min II with Acid Burst & Blast will do 16% more DPS on a devil, and 10% more on a devil boss with 50% Fort, now that they are vulnerable to acid.

Another situationally nice aspect of Min II is that if you are short on feats and melee might not be your only feather in your hat, such on a TWF FvS or bard, the saved feat because of Keen can be valuable.

Also you will have to craft more Bane's for other mobs the Mineral II's could take care of, which is especially painful if prefer to spend your gaming time somewhere else than in front of an altar working on your carpal tunnel syndrome.

Yes, Lit II does more damage, and I would generally craft a Lit II above a Min II as well, but I wouldn't write off Min II's so categorically - especially compared to the "new" crafted weapons.

Devils kept their Acid resistance in U9.

Saying that one will be x% higher than the other doesn't make any sense since different people will have different levels of bonus damage multiplied on criticals and different levels of damage added seperately.

If you assume that someone has Improved Critical and
B = damage added to base (and multiplied by criticals)
S = Seeker
Q = sneak attack

MinII Greataxe:
2-18: +5 +3d6Base +B +2d6Holy +0Acid +Q +1d4Bleed = 17 * (5 + 10.5 + B + 7 + Q + 2.5) = 425 + 17B +17Q
19: (+5 +3d6 +B +S)*3 +2d6 +0 +0 +Q +1d4 = 1 * (5 + 10.5 + B + S) * 3 + 7 + Q + 2.5 = 56 + 3B + 3S + Q
20: (+5 +3d6 +B +S)*3 +2d6 +0 +0 +Q +1d4 +2Acid (average acid damage with Acid Blast and 15 elemental resistance to Acid) = 58 + 3B +3S +Q

Total damage in 20 swings against 0% fortification and 15 Acid resistance: 539 +23B +6S +19Q

+4 Holy Silver Greataxe of Evil Outsider Bane
2-18: +4 +1d12Base +2Bane +B +2d6Holy +2d6Bane +Q = 17 * (4 + 6.5 + 2 + 7 + 7) = 450.5
19-20: (+4 +1d12 +2 +B +S)*3 +2d6 +2d6 +Q = 2 * (4 + 6.5 + 2 + B + S) *3 + 7 + 7 + Q = 2* (51.5 +3B +3S +Q)

Total damage in 20 swings against 0% fortification and 15 Acid resistance: 553.5 +23B +6S +19Q

As you noted, 50% fortification favors the the Holy Silver of EOB over the MinII, so that difference will be even greater at 50% fortification.

The Holy Silver whatever of Evil Outsider Bane will do more against Devils and is much cheaper than a MinII once you have the crafting level (possibly even considering the money that you pour into reaching crafting level that you need to craft the weapon).

There are reasons to craft a MinII (mostly to save backpack space), but beating on Pit Fiends isn't one of them.

[Razcar]

Demons lost their acid resist, not the devils. So the crafted weapon wins, and it can be even better with higher crafting skills.
Min2 remains the best overall weapon. I would craft one if i could bear green weapons. :PAh OK, my mistake then, thought it was devils as well. Then the +4 Holy Silver Bane does indeed do more DPS than a Min II against devil bosses (12% just the weapon itself).

[Razcar]

Saying that one will be x% higher than the other doesn't make any sense since different people will have different levels of bonus damage multiplied on criticals and different levels of damage added seperately.I'm very well aware of that, that's why I made a point of saying that I was just comparing the weapons themselves (edit: which is viable when you are comparing two khopeshes as in this example, since they crit the same. It was the Timothy Leary-aspect that I had gotten wrong, not the weapon comparison as such).

The more bonuses you add the less the weapons themselves will matter percentually, provided they have the same crit profile. The procs of the weapons get diluted.

[Mellkor]

Because Destruction is a buff to damage for the whole party (except the highest To-Hit classes), and a big one, against a 66AC boss.

Of course, if someone has it on their DT armor, then it's irrelevant. Depends if you run eDQ2 mainly in PUGs (can't rely on someone else having Destruction and can't rely on people having the To-Hit) or in guild groups (where it's less needed and you probably have someone with Destruction DT)

I have to disagree. Folks with the gusto to tank her should also be already hitting her on a 2. IMO stick with greater bane on both weapons.

[Qezuzu]

demon ?= devil or pit fiend

U9 did away with acid resistance on demons not devils. Therefore, Lailat, Hezrous, hounds, etc... won't have acid resistance. However, bearded devils, orthons, Harry, Suulo, etc... still have acid resistance.

Thaarak hounds are fully immune to acid.

Hellhounds don't have any resistances AFAIK, but are immune to fire and take double from cold.

[SableShadow]

Min2 remains the best overall weapon. I would craft one if i could bear green weapons. :P

Heh. I built mine because I hated the holy effects ... a weapon should drip acid, ******, not flare a white so fluffy you can't even see the edge! Though I will beat on undead with my holy GB pom-poms. :D

[Chai]

that might be true if both are actually melees. in the case of my bard, while i can swing a weapon and hit occasionally, i am definitely not a good melee. by far the greatest contribution i can give in the form of melee combat is to swing a destruction or improved destruction weapon. swinging a greater bane simply wouldn't even come close.

on the other hand, i can certainly understand wanting to be prepared for the possibility that those who are only really any good for support melee don't realise that fact. personally, my bard packs around a few support weapons specifically for that reason; it's about the only useful thing i can do. but i suppose if you have the standard "two clerics who think they both need to be spamming mass heals at the same time in every fight" or an evoker FvS who doesn't realise that their 3/4 BAB will let them keep the boss destructed while they wait for their searing light and divine punishment cooldowns, then yeah... i suppose it's better for one of the actually solid melees to be swinging a destruction weapon than it is for nobody to be swinging one.

Yeap exactly. Also add in the "my toon hits everything on a 2" toons, who do not hit everything on a 2, heh. I see this alot in game play. Too much pride to turn the PA off to get the job done - especially when its handing them a -11 penalty to hit, along with no OTWF, so -15 to hit. It boils down to "someones got to do it" and you drag out your destruction set to shore up the to-hit disparity by an 8 point swing. Its better to have those weapons around and not use them, then not have them around, and the mob is pitching a strike out no hitter, lol.