Broken Earth Savant and review of Savants for balancing

[Tedeshi]

First, this is lengthy, so thank ye fer bearin with it.

Second, this is about ACTUALLY broken aspects of earth Savant (not jus what I THINK is broken), and a showing of how the savants break down so e'erybody can make an informed idea on how these can be balanced. Now, balanced does not mean they all have to have equal damage, with equal results, etc. It jus means that they all will have an equal footing so that one savant is not supreme o'er another overall. E'erybody will have different thoughts on if this balances that, or does this compensate fer that, which then makes this whole balance. Jus please make an informed, and thought out comment/idea.

Third, my background: I have been playin an Acid Sorc fer almost 3 years now. I state this so that I dinna get the initial barrage o': Welp, ye jus dinna know how to pick yer spells to compensate. I am not stating that I have it totally mastered, but I am sayin I have quite a bit o' experience as an acid sorc, and not jus pickin up acid due to U9's earth savant.

ok, lets start with the broken aspects:

BROKEN

Cloudkill: first, I have another post on this, so not goin to go massively into this: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=315348

In a nutshell: CK and firewall state they do 2D6+1 damage per caster lvl, with FW max at 15 and CK max at 20. with this said, CK SHOULD be doing slightly MORE damage then FW does...This is NOT true, CK does anywhere from 6 (aye I said 6...what happened to min damage of 2D6 + TWENTY) to 35 on average, with a crit doing 45-115 (I have only seen a crit above 100 ONE time since U9). Now, I dinna care if anybody thinks that CK is balanced due to it's o'er benefits of the spell, ALL I want is to either get the damage to MATCH the description, OR the description changed to match the damage.

Inherent spell targeting: the Earth savant CANNOT mouse target any inherent spells. What I mean by this is that if your body is facing in one direction, and you use the mouse button to look up and down...you will ONLY cast a spell straight forward from your chest, and NOT in the direction of the mouse view (with nothing hardtargeted). So ye can't look up and throw an acid blast at the ledge above ye or throw one at yer feet when jumping, or when falling, throw one in between a group o' mobs as ye sail o'er them. ALL other inherent spells (fire, air and water) are able to cast in the direction of mouse view. the same spells USED to be able to cast with mouse view prior to Savant birth.

BALANCING

This is jus a quick breakdown o' how the spells are oriented and what the inherent spells can do Starting with lvl 1 inherent spells, then to their major spell area, and finally their DOT:

WATER
Lv1: highest damage of all lvl 1 (200-1000 damage): HUGE range as a ray spell: has a Reflex save
Lv2: AOE spell: has a Reflex save
Lv3: Long range: NO SAVE

All damaging spells are Evocation

Has a stacking spell (Niacs biting cold), and a 30 second Ice and bludgeoning damage stationary AOE in a circle

AIR
Lv1: NO RANGE - touch spell: NO SAVE
Lv2: Ranged AOE: has reflex then will save
Lv3: High range: High damage (350-1100, which is funny, since Niac's actually has higher listed damage) with possible double hit.

All damaging spells are Evocation

Has a stacking spell (Eladars Electric surge), but NO AOE stationary DOTs

FIRE
Lv1: TINY cone with LEAST damage: has a reflex save
Lv2: short range: has a reflex save
Lv3: AOE: high damage: has a reflex save

All damaging spells are Evocation

No stacking spell, 30 second Fire only damage stationary AOE in a line

EARTH
Lv1: TINY cone with LEAST damage (tied with fire): has a reflex save
Lv2: long range: NO SAVE: DOT with medium damage per tick (total of 6 ticks)
Lv3: AOE: high damage: has a reflex save

Majority o' damaging spells are Conjuration

No stacking spell, 8 second high damage acid stationary AOE in a circle, 90 second low damage AOE (acid fog) and MINISCULE damage AOE (CK).


Now, with water, fire and electric ye can just take spell focus evo and be good, but acid either has to split up spell focus schools to get the same DC when combing different damage spells, OR takes a loss of DC over schools then Acid spells when going with greater spell focus Conj. Ok not really a loss, just doesn't get the bonus 2 points in DC like the other combo schools would get. Not sure how to balance this, as that would mean changing the spell schools, but open to ideas. This jus adds to the fact that why take acid when ye may need some o'er spell to do damage that will have a lower DC. So a balancing issue here.

Why does fire not have a single NO SAVE inherent spell? meaning that unless the sorc has heightened...all of his/her inherent spells are virtually worthless in high lvl quests, not to mention epic quests due to the saves. it would be better balanced fer fire to have scorching ray as a 2nd lvl inherent then scorch. This gives each savant a NO SAVE inherent spell, and would balance those inherent spells in that sense.

Water tops the DOT with both a stacking and a high damage CIRCULAR AOE, while Air only has stacking but no stationary AOE, fire and earth do not have a stacking spell. and aye, I know ye can stack different spells to do more damage, talking about a single spell that stacks (up to 3). Whereas the only high damage AOE that earth has is Acid rain...and only lasts 8 seconds compared to 30 seconds for both fire and water. Now, not puttin this here to get teh "Oh, but this compensates that and balances", but trying to show that in this group, water "rains" supreme, vice a decent balancing fer o'ers to WANT to choose o'er savant schools.

I hope ye can view this with an open mind, and can make helpfull ideas and thoughts into how to better the sorc prestige classes.

I also hope that the broken aspects get bloody fixed!! *grins*

Jus me 2 gold pieces worth.

[Arctigis]

CK sounds broken, bug report it if you have not already.
I believe some of the targeting problems are on the known issues list - don't quote me on that though.

To address some of your other points:

Firstly, they need to fix all spells to work with Savant tier I, II and III abilities (generally this means increase to
max. caster level). From memory, most Earth spells work as expected in this regard.

Water:
L1 - Niac's cold ray is conjuration, not evocation. It also has a save for 0 damage, not half.
L3 - Frost lance has a fortitude save for half damage

Water actually has the worst SLAs IMO.

Air:
L3 - Lightning Bolt - is indeed awesome. Same damage dice as Fireball and Acid Blast though
not strictly an AoE hence the backstroke chance was added.
L2 - Electric Loop - fairly low damage but daze affect can be nice.

In fact, the only savant which carries a no-save spell is Earth Savant (Melf's). Also, if you're choosing foci to
work with your SLAs, I'd say that was the wrong approach.


EDIT: +shocking grasp though that requires you to get 'personal'

As for DoTs, the only benefit that an Air Savant gets from Eladar's or a Water Savant from Niac's, is incidental.
The spells are both capped and gain no benefit from the PRE. An Earth Savant could (and indeed should) pick
up Niac's biting cold and be effective depending on how many AP they are prepared to spend.

IME, Earth Savant works well on a battlecaster that has tanked it's main casting stat somewhat. It has a good
range of lowish level DoTs which you can fire and forget whilst engaging in Melee. For high level damage
spells, it's quite limited IMO.

Overall, I absolutely love the PRE changes, it's totally revitalized my interest in the game. The only
concern I have is that I don't think the new L5 dot's should stack the way they do - it is overpowered (he
says through gritted teeth). To clarify, I don't think they should stack from individual casters though this
may reinforce the current status quo of one arcane max. per raid group. I like the individual stacking as
it takes time to build up and is easily lost. Single target DoT should do substantially more damage than an AoE DoT.

[Tedeshi]

ok..I knew that niacs was conj...jus fer some reason omitted it when I marked all as evo *chuckles*, also ne'er noticed the fort save on frost lance... thanks fer pointin those out.

I will say that all the SLA's I tested (air, water and earth) and from the report o' my fire savant friend, all inherent spells cast at lvl 26 (fer a lvl 20 tier III). Not jus earth.

I would have to disagree with water, as I think it has the best SLA's...2 ray spells reaching half-way across the map (I did have on occassion hit mobs, did damage...and if they survived...sat their looking around because I was so far distant they couldn't locate where the ray was from), and an AOE with a decent circular range.

Also, the DoT stacking spells do benefit from the PRE as they each do the lvl 26 damage (which is an extra 6 points fer each prior to any max/empower/% bonuses. But mostly they were put there to show another means o' DoT that other schools do not have. Now, not saying there isn't a way to compensate for it, or do equal damage with different methods. Just puttin out the differences.

Also, since meteor swarm and disintegrate fall under Earth savant (though Meteor swarm falls under BOTH earth and fire savant), it does have some decent high power spells available.

And aye, I am very happy with earth savant...I jus want the broken aspects fixed. and aye, I have been putting in the cloudkill difference for years now...it has just gotten MUCH WORSE with U9.

I also think that Melf's has a hidden fort save, as i have seen it miss 1 or 2 tick time damages, and have seen it happen with my fighter when he was received a melf's arrow. But that is jus conjecture, as it does not label a save. *grins*

Thanks fer the input!!

[Arctigis]

I will say that all the SLA's I tested (air, water and earth) and from the report o' my fire savant friend, all inherent spells cast at lvl 26 (fer a lvl 20 tier III). Not jus earth.


I wasn't just talking about SLAs. Regardless, the caster level printed in the combat log is irrelevant. There are
two aspects to the Savant PREs. An increase to caster level (+2 per tier) and an increase to maximum caster
level (+1 per tier). Where a spell lists a level based cap (e.g. Cone of Cold claims 1d3 +3 per level to a maximum
of 15d3 + 45) the Savant increase max. caster level effect is supposed to increase this. Using the Cone of Cold
example again, this means a Water Savant III _should_ cast this at CL26. However, as the spell is capped at
L15 this isn't much use. The cap _should_ be increased to 18d3 + 54 from the +3 to max. caster level. This works
for spells like Ball Lightning, Chain Lightning, Otiluke's but is currently broken for Cone of Cold. My point was that
this should work for all spells - or - implement Shade's idea of just having an increase to caster level and
no caps on any spells.



Also, the DoT stacking spells do benefit from the PRE as they each do the lvl 26 damage (which is an extra 6 points fer each prior to any max/empower/% bonuses. But mostly they were put there to show another means o' DoT that other schools do not have. Now, not saying there isn't a way to compensate for it, or do equal damage with different methods. Just puttin out the differences.


Again, regardless of what the combat log says, these spells were (I can't say _are_ as I haven't re-checked
post 9.1) hard capped at 1d6 + 20 regardless of Savant tiers. I actually measured a large range of numbers
from various spells with and without the Savant PRE and calculated averages in a spreadsheet. Empirically
it's very, very easy to determine which spells remain capped and which do not. These do.



Also, since meteor swarm and disintegrate fall under Earth savant (though Meteor swarm falls under BOTH earth and fire savant), it does have some decent high power spells available.


Disintegrate is Force, not Earth. Meteor Swarm is Earth but has no level variable component hence is not
affected by the PRE. The enhancement that affects MS is Force (possibly Fire as well, whichever is higher)




I also think that Melf's has a hidden fort save, as i have seen it miss 1 or 2 tick time damages, and have seen it happen with my fighter when he was received a melf's arrow. But that is jus conjecture, as it does not label a save. *grins*

Thanks fer the input!!

It doesn't have a save but I think, like all spells really, there is some timer issue or it requires an interaction
between server and client and is thus subject to packet loss/latency. I've seen ticks missed then three happen
in two seconds etc.

[Jaid314]

apart from the broken stuff you mentioned, about the only thing i could really wish for in acid is another 1-2 higher level spells personally. as in higher than level 4... something that can actually work on sully/abbot/etc, for example.

[Asketes]

OP is incorrect scorch and burning hands cannot be cast along the Y axis, you cannot cast it above or below you.

Acid has the best DPS out of all these guys

130-150 melfs
600+ acid blast

40reflex no SR earthgrab


weaken to acid + earthgrab on an epic + 1 melfs and 1 acid blast, we're talking about 900+ damage for non-crits for what, 8SP?

I was at 953 HP when I had Shagath test the above out on me, I died before the second melfs tick, none of the chain was a critical cast.

[Musouka]

Just because the combat log states that you are casting a spell at level 26 does not mean you are actually getting 26 levels of extra damage. It is just stating your caster level for the spell. Burning hands, Niac's Cold Ray, Shocking Grasp, Acid Spray normally caps at level 5, but with the savant enhancements, it caps at level 8 (without ToD set). I believe the reason it states that you cast it at level 26, mainly for the purpose of a spell penetration check, even if the spell has no Spell Resistance check. This even goes for the SLAs.

Earth savants get no extra benefit to Disintegrate. I know, as I brought an Earth Savant to level 20.


Earth Spells:
Acid Blast, Acid Fog, Acid Rain, Acid Splash, Acid Spray, Burning Blood, Cloudkill, Flesh to Stone, Melf's Acid Arrow, Meteor Swarm, Protection from Energy (Acid), Resist Energy (Acid), Stoneskin, Stone to Flesh, a couple of Summon Monsters

You also omitted mentioning the save that comes with Lightning Bolt.


Now, with water, fire and electric ye can just take spell focus evo and be good, but acid either has to split up spell focus schools to get the same DC when combing different damage spells, OR takes a loss of DC over schools then Acid spells when going with greater spell focus Conj.

I know a couple water savants that took Conjuration focus, because of niac's cold ray being such a high damager, at the same time they enjoy using web. Also as an Earth Savant, there really is one spell that is evocation and that's Acid Spray. I don't believe 1 spell is worth taking SF: Evocation. As it stands, I have Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration, which benefits acid rain, acid blast, and cloudkill, also web and trap the soul.


Why does fire not have a single NO SAVE inherent spell? meaning that unless the sorc has heightened...all of his/her inherent spells are virtually worthless in high lvl quests, not to mention epic quests due to the saves. it would be better balanced fer fire to have scorching ray as a 2nd lvl inherent then scorch. This gives each savant a NO SAVE inherent spell, and would balance those inherent spells in that sense.

Actually only air and earth have a no-save SLA. Air has touch spell, Earth has ranged. So Water Savants are missing one too.


I hope ye can view this with an open mind, and can make helpfull ideas and thoughts into how to better the sorc prestige classes.

I also hope that the broken aspects get bloody fixed!! *grins*

If you really want people to be helpful, learning the aspects of the game would help. Do not assume certain aspects, and do not overlook them. You have even admitted that you did not know about some of your claims in the OP. You also seem to just state things as if they are fact, when it just seems you lacked reading up on them or testing them. You try to do some sort of formal post, but it is riddled with you role playing as a drunken dwarf with your spelling.

I personally do not see much of a balancing issue between the classes outside of quest content. There just is not enough quest content, and the majority of endgame content makes certain spells useless. Like Fire on devils, or Ice on skeletons. I did find it fun that the spiders in the Vale are immune to Acid. It made getting the extra chest in Dust much easier for me. Almost all Devils do not have any acid resistance now. Usually it's the orange named ones or greater that have resistance, but not much.

I know it seems biased, but I would like another acid spell. Something like Cone of Acid (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Cone_of_Acid_%28DnD_Spell%29) or Acidic Shield (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Acidic_Shield_%283.5e_Spell%29).

[Qezuzu]

For the Earth SLA's, I always hard target...


Now, with water, fire and electric ye can just take spell focus evo and be good, but acid either has to split up spell focus schools to get the same DC when combing different damage spells, OR takes a loss of DC over schools then Acid spells when going with greater spell focus Conj.

Or not care about your Evo DC's. +1 or +2 to Evo DC's is a very miniscule increase in damage.

Conjuration affects web, and I think Acid Blast is the only acid spell that will break it. Web rocks.

The real problem with Earth is the spell selection for damaging spells:

Acid Spray: Weak, low range, available in SLA form, no reason to take it as a lvl1 spell.
Melf's Acid Arrow: Lovely spell, but harshly affected by resistance. Available in SLA form, no reason to take it as a lvl2 spell.
Acid Blast: Lovely Spell, but available in SLA form. Little to no reasn to take it as a lvl3 spell.
Acid Rain: Awesome spell. Does >1.5k damag on a stationary boss.
Burning Blood: Fort save for no damage iirc. Fire portion doesn't work on devils. I haven't used this.

All of the above spells do now work on mantled bosses.

Cloudkill: Doesn't work on bosses. Possibly broken, as you say.
Acid Fog: Doesn't scale with level iirc.

What Earth Savant really needs is more spell selection.

[Musouka]

Conjuration affects web, and I think Acid Blast is the only acid spell that will break it. Web rocks.



It does not break it. As it is a very common tactic I use.

[Tedeshi]

Just because the combat log states that you are casting a spell at level 26 does not mean you are actually getting 26 levels of extra damage. It is just stating your caster level for the spell. Burning hands, Niac's Cold Ray, Shocking Grasp, Acid Spray normally caps at level 5, but with the savant enhancements, it caps at level 8 (without ToD set). I believe the reason it states that you cast it at level 26, mainly for the purpose of a spell penetration check, even if the spell has no Spell Resistance check. This even goes for the SLAs.

Earth savants get no extra benefit to Disintegrate. I know, as I brought an Earth Savant to level 20.



You also omitted mentioning the save that comes with Lightning Bolt.



I know a couple water savants that took Conjuration focus, because of niac's cold ray being such a high damager, at the same time they enjoy using web. Also as an Earth Savant, there really is one spell that is evocation and that's Acid Spray. I don't believe 1 spell is worth taking SF: Evocation. As it stands, I have Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration, which benefits acid rain, acid blast, and cloudkill, also web and trap the soul.



Actually only air and earth have a no-save SLA. Air has touch spell, Earth has ranged. So Water Savants are missing one too.



If you really want people to be helpful, learning the aspects of the game would help. Do not assume certain aspects, and do not overlook them. You have even admitted that you did not know about some of your claims in the OP. You also seem to just state things as if they are fact, when it just seems you lacked reading up on them or testing them. You try to do some sort of formal post, but it is riddled with you role playing as a drunken dwarf with your spelling.

I personally do not see much of a balancing issue between the classes outside of quest content. There just is not enough quest content, and the majority of endgame content makes certain spells useless. Like Fire on devils, or Ice on skeletons. I did find it fun that the spiders in the Vale are immune to Acid. It made getting the extra chest in Dust much easier for me. Almost all Devils do not have any acid resistance now. Usually it's the orange named ones or greater that have resistance, but not much.

I know it seems biased, but I would like another acid spell. Something like Cone of Acid (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Cone_of_Acid_%28DnD_Spell%29) or Acidic Shield (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Acidic_Shield_%283.5e_Spell%29).

Hmm. ok, first, I tend to type faster then I thought out, which is a downfall...and I apologize. I meant in the above that aye, ye do have a caster lvl o' 26 fer spells, but ye only get a +3 to their max spell lvl (meaning, if ye have somethin capped at 15d6 +15...it now is capped at 18d6 +18.) inherent spells though do not seem to have this cap.

Ok, actually, if ye test it, all inherent spells are cast at yer caster lvl. if they were NOT, then kindly explain how any of them punch out higher numbers then 100??? look at niacs...200 to 1000 with a crit...on what ye are sayin as a max o' 8d5+40...so max at 80, ye would need about a 1300% increase to touch the crit max I have seen...and as ye stated..."If you really want people to be helpful, learning the aspects of the game would help. Do not assume certain aspects, and do not overlook them". An before ye go spewin out 40 different items that give boosts, all I had active and on when casting niacs (with a max damage that I saw at 1050) was maximize, empower, full water enhancements, major ice lore sceptar and superior potency VI dagger. No extra items to raise the lvl, no extra items to add damage.

Now, as I have admitted, and ye seem to want to point out as some bloody horrid flaw, i missed a bit. not too bloody worried about it. but ye have obviously missed things also, yet ye want to ridicule me by stabbin at somethin ye have obviously not tested and are taking fer granted (statin the niacs cold caps at lvl 8 which it OBVIOUSLY does not), and by how I type...aye, dwarven gibberish, but I been doin it fer so long it is natural fer me. *shrugs*

as fer omittin lightin save, aye, but it was jus not typed in, at no time did I state it dinna have a save.

(fer Arctigis) As fer disintegrate, my bad, I had...fer some odd reason...read that spell under the earth spells. thank ye fer postin the earth spells again. As fer meteor swarm the only benefit it gets is the +3 to it's max caster lvl damage.


(fer Asketes)- aye, looks like ONLY fireball fires along the y axis. A lot o' the o'er spells fire only along the x-axis, what I meant is that the spells that should and used to fire along the y-axis do not anymore. it was jus written and unintentionally grouped together.

[Kourier]

Hmm. ok, first, I tend to type faster then I thought out, which is a downfall...and I apologize. I meant in the above that aye, ye do have a caster lvl o' 26 fer spells, but ye only get a +3 to their max spell lvl (meaning, if ye have somethin capped at 15d6 +15...it now is capped at 18d6 +18.) inherent spells though do not seem to have this cap.

Ok, actually, if ye test it, all inherent spells are cast at yer caster lvl. if they were NOT, then kindly explain how any of them punch out higher numbers then 100??? look at niacs...200 to 1000 with a crit...on what ye are sayin as a max o' 8d5+40...so max at 80, ye would need about a 1300% increase to touch the crit max I have seen...and as ye stated..."If you really want people to be helpful, learning the aspects of the game would help. Do not assume certain aspects, and do not overlook them"

Now, as I have admitted, and ye seem to want to point out as some bloody horrid flaw, i missed a bit. not too bloody worried about it. but ye have obviously missed things also, yet ye want to ridicule me by stabbin at somethin ye have obviously not tested and are taking fer granted (statin the niacs cold caps at lvl 8 which it OBVIOUSLY does not), and by how I type...aye, dwarven gibberish, but I been doin it fer so long it is natural fer me. *shrugs*

as fer omittin lightin save, aye, but it was jus not typed in, at no time did I state it dinna have a save.

(fer Arctigis) As fer disintegrate, my bad, I had...fer some odd reason...read that spell under the earth spells. thank ye fer posted the earth spells again. As fer meteor swarm the only benefit it gets is the +3 to it's max caster lvl damage.


(fer Asketes)- aye, looks like ONLY fireball fires along the y axis. A lot o' the o'er spells fire only along the x-axis, what I meant is that the spells that should and used to fire along the y-axis do not anymore. it was jus written and unintentionally grouped together.

It appears to be you who is unfamiliar with the mechanics. Niac's and similar other level 1 spells are stated to cap at level 5. The max spell level increase allowed by the savant prestige is stated to be 3 levels. The difference you are seeing can easily be explained with maximize, empower, item enchantments, and character enhancements. That you did not take these into account is a pretty big error...

Regarding balancing, I agree, water is the strongest. But air has the strongest innate ability (wings) and doesn't harm fire or water spells. Earth also has the incredible earthgrab ability. Fire is the weakest in most people's minds - The major problem is that fire is useless against current endgame devils. I'm not sure what can be done about this besides moving away from devils for the next high level packs.

You clearly underestimate acid rain - it does much more damage per tick over a shorter period of time than any other DoT (15d4 which is comparable to a double/triple stack niacs or eladar) AND stacks with Melfs.

Acid is almost entirely in conjuration, which is a good school in general, so I don't think that's a problem. The two bugs you cite (targeting and cloudkill damage) ARE valid and I hope they will be fixed but I must disagree with the rest of your post.

[Jaid314]

Hmm. ok, first, I tend to type faster then I thought out, which is a downfall...and I apologize. I meant in the above that aye, ye do have a caster lvl o' 26 fer spells, but ye only get a +3 to their max spell lvl (meaning, if ye have somethin capped at 15d6 +15...it now is capped at 18d6 +18.) inherent spells though do not seem to have this cap.

Ok, actually, if ye test it, all inherent spells are cast at yer caster lvl. if they were NOT, then kindly explain how any of them punch out higher numbers then 100??? look at niacs...200 to 1000 with a crit...on what ye are sayin as a max o' 8d5+40...so max at 80, ye would need about a 1300% increase to touch the crit max I have seen...and as ye stated..."If you really want people to be helpful, learning the aspects of the game would help. Do not assume certain aspects, and do not overlook them"

Now, as I have admitted, and ye seem to want to point out as some bloody horrid flaw, i missed a bit. not too bloody worried about it. but ye have obviously missed things also, yet ye want to ridicule me by stabbin at somethin ye have obviously not tested and are taking fer granted (statin the niacs cold caps at lvl 8 which it OBVIOUSLY does not), and by how I type...aye, dwarven gibberish, but I been doin it fer so long it is natural fer me. *shrugs*

as fer omittin lightin save, aye, but it was jus not typed in, at no time did I state it dinna have a save.

(fer Arctigis) As fer disintegrate, my bad, I had...fer some odd reason...read that spell under the earth spells. thank ye fer posted the earth spells again. As fer meteor swarm the only benefit it gets is the +3 to it's max caster lvl damage.


(fer Asketes)- aye, looks like ONLY fireball fires along the y axis. A lot o' the o'er spells fire only along the x-axis, what I meant is that the spells that should and used to fire along the y-axis do not anymore. it was jus written and unintentionally grouped together.

how niac's cold ray gets so high:

the formula goes as follows: base * (1 + enhancement % + item %) * (1 + metamagic %)

for a capped cold savant, you're looking at:

8d5 + 40 is base. for the sake of argument, we'll assign this a value of 1 (we want to know how many multiples of the base damage is being done). enhancement % is 50 (or should be). item % is 75% (or should be). metamagic % is 170% (or should be, via capstone)

so you get 1 * 2.25 * 2.75 = 6.1875

now we factor in the crits. a savant will most likely, in their primary damage type, have maxed crit enhancements. this will give a 2.25 multiplier for their crits. add in an item (should be +0.5), and it goes up to 2.75 multiplier.

on a crit, you are dealing that 6.1875 multiple of the base times 2.75, for a total of 17.015625 times the base amount.

so what is the base amount? well, as 8d5 + 40, we're looking at a low end of 48, a high end of 80, and an average of 64. multiply those into the above numbers, and on a crit you're looking at a minimum of 816, a maximum of 1361.5, and an average of 1089 damage. for a normal hit, you're looking at 297 minimum, 396 average, and 495 maximum.

so, in fact, his numbers were low. interestingly, if we use the averages for 5d5 + 25, you get a minimum of 30, maximum of 50, and average of 40... for 185.625 minimum, 247.5 average, and 309.375 for maximum, and on a crit you get 510.46875 minimum, 680.625 for average, and 850.78125 for maximum... suspiciously, this is much closer to his listed reported damage values. this would seem to imply that the level 1 cold SLA is not properly applying it's bonus maximum caster levels.

edit: oh, and meteor swarm neither gains nor loses from any savant line. it is completely unaffected by caster level in any way.

[Arctigis]

Ok, actually, if ye test it, all inherent spells are cast at yer caster lvl. if they were NOT, then kindly explain how any of them punch out higher numbers then 100??? look at niacs...200 to 1000 with a crit...on what ye are sayin as a max o' 8d5+40...so max at 80, ye would need about a 1300% increase to touch the crit max I have seen...and as ye stated..."If you really want people to be helpful, learning the aspects of the game would help. Do not assume certain aspects, and do not overlook them". An before ye go spewin out 40 different items that give boosts, all I had active and on when casting niacs (with a max damage that I saw at 1050) was maximize, empower, full water enhancements, major ice lore sceptar and superior potency VI dagger. No extra items to raise the lvl, no extra items to add damage.



SLAs are still subject to the same restrictions as other spells. Niac's is 1d5 +5 per level. For a Water Savant
III this gives a base damage of 48 - 80 (60). Assuming BoP and max crit chance and multiplier, this becomes:

60 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.5) * (1 + 1 + 0.5 + 0.2) = 324 non-crit (average)

Crit multiplier will be:
50% from Major Lore
50% from Glacial Spellcasting VI
125% from Deadly Ice VI

For a total multiplier of 2.75

So your average crit. with bog standard, vendor trash gear will be:

324 * 2.75 = 891
Max will be: 1188 with this gear setup.

Add an eardweller and you're looking at 1113 average crit and a max of 1485. Not too shabby.
Of course, save for 0.



...As fer meteor swarm the only benefit it gets is the +3 to it's max caster lvl damage.


As already pointed out, there's no variable damage component to MS based on LVL.

[maddmatt70]

Earth Savant is the best savant for soloing content of the 4 savants and is great for levelling a sorceror in my opinion. All four savants have + and -s. The weakest savant is fire just because of all the mobs with immunities at the end game, but it still is solid if the devs introduce more end game mobs without fire immunities in the near future.

[Arctigis]

h

so, in fact, his numbers were low. interestingly, if we use the averages for 5d5 + 25, you get a minimum of 30, maximum of 50, and average of 40... for 185.625 minimum, 247.5 average, and 309.375 for maximum, and on a crit you get 510.46875 minimum, 680.625 for average, and 850.78125 for maximum... suspiciously, this is much closer to his listed reported damage values. this would seem to imply that the level 1 cold SLA is not properly applying it's bonus maximum caster levels.


Last time I checked, this was working as expected for all the Water SLAs (i.e. all have their max. caster level
increased - except FL as it's irrelevant for that spell). The OP claimed that their numbers were with Sup. Pot. VI
only and were ranging 200 - 1000. I think 1000 is out of range with that setup (assuming 50% enhancement and
2.75 crit. multiplier) unless the spell is uncapped. OP, your average damage (non-crit) would be 12.5% higher
per cast just from drinking Superior Freeze I pots.

[Arctigis]

Earth Savant is the best savant for soloing content of the 4 savants and is great for levelling a sorceror in my opinion. All four savants have + and -s. The weakest savant is fire just because of all the mobs with immunities at the end game, but it still is solid if the devs introduce more end game mobs without fire immunities in the near future.

And this is why they are so awesome IMO - different choices, different playstyles. I'm really enjoying it.
(though certain a$$hats screaming nerf! are starting to get annoying ;) )

[Tedeshi]

Actually, thanks to all those that have posted.

Once I got home and cooled off, I ran through the numbers and figured it out. and then coming back on to post an apology I see many o'ers have run through the figures also.

I do apologize, as I got heated from feelin that the one lad/lass was takin pot shots at me, instead o' jus puttin in information and leavin it at that.

Grand huntin to ye all. And thanks fer the info. mostly this was originally jus a post to fix the bugs, with the review added as an afterthought and wanted some ideas and info. for the most part, ye all stayed to jus info, and I appreciate it.

*salutes*

[Jaid314]

Last time I checked, this was working as expected for all the Water SLAs (i.e. all have their max. caster level
increased - except FL as it's irrelevant for that spell).

au contraire, monsieur, you can get max CL +5 total. that should be enough for a 4th ray, since the usual cap is 3 rays at 11th level, and the pattern would otherwise indicate 4 rays at 15th level.

[Chaosprism]

Actually the pale master and archmage inherent spells (arcane bolt & blast, necrotic bolt & blast), also dont look at mouse look direction like most other spells do.

It's a bug that came in with those prestiges and has yet to be fixed.

[Arctigis]

au contraire, monsieur, you can get max CL +5 total. that should be enough for a 4th ray, since the usual cap is 3 rays at 11th level, and the pattern would otherwise indicate 4 rays at 15th level.

Good luck with that...

[skunk]

acid just needs a good spell at 7th, or 8th level, cloudkill fixed, and acidfog fixed (imho) Melfs is the best tir 2 ability.

Fire is by far the weakest after you reach the vale. Up till then, its right up there with the best. Acid is one of the easiest to level with. Acid rain is great, at 16 i was getting huge crits.

I don't know epic yet, and i have only played ice and acid so far. (both on my level 16 sorc.)

My other sorc i Tred into a cleric to get higher conj. I'll tr back to a WF acid sorc when it turns 20.

[Tammuz]

Actually the pale master and archmage inherent spells (arcane bolt & blast, necrotic bolt & blast), also dont look at mouse look direction like most other spells do.

It's a bug that came in with those prestiges and has yet to be fixed.

I can say this is true from experience; this should be a priority (albeit I am sure there are other needed fixes as well)