Possible Ranged Combat Fix.

[Teharahma]

They should fix ranged combat.

Using the attack line from TWF
+0/+0/+5/(+5)/+10/(+10)

Now, we all know that attack chains only work when you're stationary.

Make it so that the first and second attack (+0), fires 1 arrow. The third/(fourth, attack in TWF counts as one), fires 2 arrows. And the last part of the attack chain (counts together aswell) (+10) fires 3 arrows.

That way, Ranged toons don't kite, have their DPS increased. And can still use manyshot for when they want to kite.
This makes it possible for archers to keep using bows against raidbosses. While still being able to pack out a punch with Manyshot.


Discuss!

[Kominalito]

impossibly over powered.

[elujin]

ranged is fine and many build use it to great effect the trouble is how and when ;)

[Kadriel]

I like this. It nulls the main benefict of ranged combat, since you need to stay in the same place to get the extra arrows in order to do more damage. Multishot would still be very usefull. Of course, the number of arrows per part of the chain will need to be tested. Only problem I see is with arcane archer imbued arrows, since 3 chances to trigger slaying arrows at once can be overpowered. That can be fixed if only one arrow per shot has the imbue applied.

[Teharahma]

Ofcourse it can/will/might be overpowered.

The main idea is; Stationary = more dmg.

The double arrows could very well be Double-strike, high percentage perhaps. The idea is just to be able to keep ranging and have decent, not over the top DPS.

[Teharahma]

I like this. It nulls the main benefict of ranged combat, since you need to stay in the same place to get the extra arrows in order to do more damage. Multishot would still be very usefull. Of course, the number of arrows per part of the chain will need to be tested. Only problem I see is with arcane archer imbued arrows, since 3 chances to trigger slaying arrows at once can be overpowered. That can be fixed if only one arrow per shot has the imbue applied.

Well, Manyshot has that same thing, 4 times the chance of proccing Slaying.

[Kadriel]

True, but many shot lasts 20s each 2 mins and require feats...

[Teharahma]

True, but many shot lasts 20s each 2 mins and require feats...

True true, it's all about balance actually. I hardly ever find my own ideas good, but I really like this one.
The concept that is :p.

[WarDestroyer]

IMO: An option for T2 or T3 of Deepwood Sniper

[Teharahma]

IMO: An option for T2 or T3 of Deepwood Sniper

Now THAT is a good idea.
Excellent!

+1

[Kadriel]

Please don't. Making it deepwood only will create a valid PrE while not helping ranged combat to any diferente class. Ranged combat needs to be fixed to be viable for everyone.
Giving yet another boost to rangers ranged combat will just make it more dificult to fix general ranged combat without making rangers overpowered.

[Benjai]

There are hundreds of decent ideas on how to make ranged at least a little more powerful but this game has been out for years and years and there isn't even developer discussion about ranged combat.

[Stillwaters]

They are fixing SOME ranged combat.. possibly more than is said here:



Originally Posted by Eladrin http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=318131
I can talk a little about that...

I've completely rescripted crossbows and repeating crossbows for Update 11. The desynchronization issues that have plagued repeaters should be a thing of the past.

We've changed their use behavior a bit though - crossbow use will been broken apart into two actions: Fire, and Reload. This lets you load a crossbow, run around with it, fire off a quick opening shot when you see a monster, and then immediately start casting spells (if applicable) or switch to a different weapon, instead of having to wait for the reload animation to complete. The "attack" button handles both of these. (Click to attack, then click to reload. If you hold the mouse button down or use autoattack, it should smoothly go from one to the other.)

Repeating Crossbows will always fire their three round burst with a single "attack" action. Click! Thunk-thunk-thunk. Click! Reload. As before, repeating crossbows function as regular crossbows in the hands of a non-proficient user.

Rapid Reload is now also significantly more noticeable.

Great Crossbows (in the hands of a proficient user) now knock most opponents over on a confirmed natural 20, no save.

[WarDestroyer]

They are fixing SOME ranged combat.. possibly more than is said here:

That's for XBows only, where's the archers love?

[Kominalito]

if ranged is fixed to make people happy, there will be no more greataxe vs falch debates, there will be no khopesh vs everything debates. it will be "MOAR NAMED COMP LONGBOWS, PLX" and with that, PEW PEW will be the flavor choice for dps.

[Crazyfruit]

/unsigned

Not because it's not a good idea, but because it'll make the game less fun for friends. They enjoy kiting around and blasting things to bits (usually only while soloing of course). If they feel they have to stand still to do better damage they'll just grumble and play their sorcs or quit.

Of course, some people might like it if the ranged rangers who kite everything quit...

I miss friends who quit when U5 changed glancing blows :(. Same sorta change

[Aesop]

They are fixing SOME ranged combat.. possibly more than is said here:

Interesting.

The Great X-Bow thing is particularly interesting.

I'm sorta still hoping for a few other changes to help ranged combat.


A faster reload animation would help significantly for Bow use. Most of the issue of Ranged being too slow is due to this.



A Ranged Tactical ability is something that is sorely needed as well.

example:

Pin
Target is suck in place similar to a web effect. DC based on Dexterity.



Ki ranged weapons need to produce Ki. Ki effects should work with ranged weapons as well... at least in some ways. FoL as an effect that seems directly tied to drawing the effect off the mob might not, but basic Elemental Attacks seem like they should.


I'd like to see Many Shot broken down into multiple shorter duration effects that recharge individually. Start out with 2 10-12 sec bursts and add another at BAB 11 and a forth at 16. Let them have a 30 sec cooldown and a 2min to 2:30 individual recharge



The IPS ability is a great ability for damaging groups, but a large part of the game involves targeting a single critter. We should have an ability to do this.

IPS is a stance and this could be another.

Over Draw (yes in RL overdrawing the bow won't result in more power and will likely harm the bow... I don't care, this is fantasy and we can make the rules say what we want)

take a -3 penalty to Attack to gain a +5 bonus to damage.



AI needs to deal with ranged more intelligently. Stop chasing Kiting Archers that they'll never catch. Instead fire ranged weapons at the retreating target as they're chasing, take cover and/or attack another possible target.


Aesop

[Stillwaters]

Love the idea of single target dps increases for bow- but (i know ill get flamed) still think this is more a "xxx" PrE idea like maybe deepwood sniper II

overall tho the bow and repeater, and thrown weapons needs some adjustment to either damage or attack speed to be effective..

Short of repeater rogue sneak attack/AA imbues, ranged is almost never used (unless you wanna kite and tick off ppl)

I'm NOT saying it should = melee dps.. but 75% would be nice, not many mobs can be downed before they get to you unless you kite and lower ENTIRE PARTY DPS, and with no control options like stun or trip, it just has less variety while fighting.

maybe Aesop's idea of OVERDRAW could be like a stun/trip click with cooldown and do 300% damage (or whatever im not good with math on this)

[kcru]

A faster reload animation would help significantly for Bow use. Most of the issue of Ranged being too slow is due to this.



Btw, I know it isn't stated anywhere, but has anyone ever checked to see if Quick Draw speeds up normal bow reloading? I know it speeds up other things (fighter haste activations, etc) that aren't specifically mentioned.


Over Draw (yes in RL overdrawing the bow won't result in more power and will likely harm the bow... I don't care, this is fantasy and we can make the rules say what we want)


Actually, for a recurve or longbow, the amount of power returned is a function of how far back you pull it. Think of it as a mechanical spring (which it is!) The more power stored, the more power returned. So yes, this works.

Pulling too hard on a compound bow gives negligible extra power because most of the power is stored in the wheels which have a max capacity, not in the limbs. That said, you can "crank down" the limbs, making the whole system more taut mechanically, which does increase the "weight" of the bow and yields more power.

Any yes, if you pulled a bow back further, your arrow is going to go to a different place than if you pull it back to the normal nocking point, so the accuracy reduction makes sense there too.



OP:
I like the more-arrows-if-standing-still idea. A good tradeoff, and frankly makes a lot of sense.

[Tarnoc]

so at this point in the game we all have to agree that 3 feats isa standard on fighting

ie twf and thf

so why not have precise imp precise and greater precise(which gives a %chance to double strike target only)

thiers many ways something like this could allow
ie shield mastery imp shield mastery greater shield mastery.....and they should use the shield in thier attack animations

i know that these things may or maynot be in PNP but

1 this is an MMO
2 as an old school(2.0)player the way different classes played changed but overall kill ability was always thier and this was general achieved through a human DM something we dont have ona case by case basis

so anyhow that is my suggestion for combat changes

[Aesop]

so at this point in the game we all have to agree that 3 feats isa standard on fighting

ie twf and thf

so why not have precise imp precise and greater precise(which gives a %chance to double strike target only)

thiers many ways something like this could allow
ie shield mastery imp shield mastery greater shield mastery.....and they should use the shield in thier attack animations

i know that these things may or maynot be in PNP but

1 this is an MMO
2 as an old school(2.0)player the way different classes played changed but overall kill ability was always thier and this was general achieved through a human DM something we dont have ona case by case basis

so anyhow that is my suggestion for combat changes



Honestly archer is the most feat intensive of the combat styles and has the least DPS reward.

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Many Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Bow Strength
Prerequisite feat to get Bow Strength

not to mention the other normal combat feats which could overlap the Bow Strength Prereq.

Weapon Focus
(Weapon Spec if possible)
Improved Critical
Power Attack (can be the Bow Strength Prereq as well)

Not to mention the splitting of the Stat points to have a high enough Dexterity to actually hit the target and enough strength to make that worth while

Aesop

[maddmatt70]

Honestly archer is the most feat intensive of the combat styles and has the least DPS reward.

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Many Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Bow Strength
Prerequisite feat to get Bow Strength

not to mention the other normal combat feats which could overlap the Bow Strength Prereq.

Weapon Focus
(Weapon Spec if possible)
Improved Critical
Power Attack (can be the Bow Strength Prereq as well)



One issue I have with the feats that you did not mention is the high base dexterity required for improved precise shot (base 19 dex) among others. This restricts build options because improved precise shot is required to really be a successful ranged build. Zen archery has limited use for this reason as does some interesting barbarian builds, but just in general since builds need a 19 base dex and the like they can not dump or lower dex as much as possible as they could otherwise which leads to less dps and/or utility for archers. I would move to lower the dexterity required to no higher then 15 for archery feats after all power attack only requires a 13 strength..

[Aesop]

One issue I have with the feats that you did not mention is the high base dexterity required for improved precise shot (base 19 dex) among others. This restricts build options because improved precise shot is required to really be a successful ranged build. Zen archery has limited use for this reason as does some interesting barbarian builds, but just in general since builds need a 19 base dex and the like they can not dump or lower dex as much as possible as they could otherwise which leads to less dps and/or utility for archers. I would move to lower the dexterity required to no higher then 15 for archery feats after all power attack only requires a 13 strength..

good point. The dex requirements exceeds every other style and even when another feat supersede (ie Zen Archery) Wisdom doesn't replace Dex for the requirements.


I'm not sure I'd go lower than 17 dex though as TWF has a 17 requirement also.

makes it difficult to actually play a unique build

Aesop