A Word to the Wise

[ORIGINALBAG0]

Please stop splashing two levels of rogue or monk when your reflex save sucks. You aren't helping yourself or anyone else by losing your capstone to successfully evade on a 20.

[Bloodstealer]

Errmmm maybe they spalsh it for more than just a tad more Reflex... maybe Evasion, maybe Skill points, maybe Sneak damage, maybe Wis/AC or stance benefits for Monks... do others tell you how to build your toons, do you pay their subs or buy their TP's... guess that kinda means each to their own.
Not sure why you dislike the splashes, seeing that yours seem to have them but hey if you don't like competion in your your groups then make it clear on your LFM's, no biggy.

In my experience of this game some of the better toon builds have been developed using such multiclasses as you seem to hate.. or maybe that's the route of the issue, maybe they make your toons seem a little...insignificant :D

[ORIGINALBAG0]

Wow. Obviously, I have no issue with multiclassing. I LOVE multiclassing, when you get something worth it. I've also dropped the rogue splash I've put into a couple toons, because it did not work. I'm not referring to Wiz rogues or people who put it in tomake use of their ridiculously high saves. I'm referring to people who roll up their fighter or barb with no int or dex, no trapskills, and think that evasion has made their build uber. It is definitely not always a good call. Thank you for assuming so much, though. Warms my little heart.

[Bloodstealer]

I did not assume anything or if I did then it was merely because your opening statement was in itself an assumption that players only put 2 rogue or Monk levels in their build in order to boost their Reflex saves... which is not the case, in many many builds.

Maybe UMD might play a part in their thinking... so you sir are the one who is assuming much here.

/FAIL

[ORIGINALBAG0]

And I entirely respect people who do that, my friend. At the expense of getting into an argument with a single person on the forums, I encourage you to actually read what I have written. It is specifically aimed at people who have awful reflex saves, only splash for evasion, and brag about how uber evasion has made them with their 8 reflex save. I could not possibly care less about how other people build, and bumping your UMD and such is a noble pursuit. It just gives me great joy to watch the ESoS-weilding Kensei III with a rogue splash eat the blades in EADQ, then say they musy have rolled a bunch of 1s.

[markusthelion]

You both may be right, but capstones mostly suck anyway so splash on!

[Turtlsdown]

I did not assume anything or if I did then it was merely because your opening statement was in itself an assumption that players only put 2 rogue or Monk levels in their build in order to boost their Reflex saves... which is not the case, in many many builds.

Maybe UMD might play a part in their thinking... so you sir are the one who is assuming much here.

/FAIL

The OP was about people who take rogue levels to get evade even when their reflex save is terrible. You, on the other hand, keep posting how the OP is about boosting one's reflex save using rogue levels and how this is short-sighted because maybe those people want to get things like evade in their builds. Can you not see how mixed up that is?

/Heighten on
/Cast confusion
Rolled a 20, critical hit!

[Uska]

You both may be right, but capstones mostly suck anyway so splash on!

There are a couple of nice ones but most are rather lackluster and if want to splash more power to them

[Chette]

Errmmm maybe they spalsh it for more than just a tad more Reflex... maybe Evasion

He's not talking about them splashing it for more reflex, he's talking about them splashing it for evasion, which is uselss when you have terrible reflex save. You're taking full damage on 1 through 19, so your evasion is not netting you anything.

I agree with you that there can be other good reasons to splash 2 monk or 2 rogue (though generally the main benefit is evasion) but you have grossly misinterpreted the OPs post.

[LoneWolfie]

i think i'll roll a barb with dumped dex and 2 rogue splash now
thnx for the idea :)

[jcTharin]

bard capstone suxors. plus i already lost it with the fighter levels.

[cdemeritt]

Errmmm maybe they spalsh it for more than just a tad more Reflex... maybe Evasion, maybe Skill points, maybe Sneak damage, maybe Wis/AC or stance benefits for Monks... do others tell you how to build your toons, do you pay their subs or buy their TP's... guess that kinda means each to their own.
Not sure why you dislike the splashes, seeing that yours seem to have them but hey if you don't like competion in your your groups then make it clear on your LFM's, no biggy.

In my experience of this game some of the better toon builds have been developed using such multiclasses as you seem to hate.. or maybe that's the route of the issue, maybe they make your toons seem a little...insignificant :D

Me thinks you mis-read.

Evasion isn't going to help you if you only save on a 20.

[ORIGINALBAG0]

i think i'll roll a barb with dumped dex and 2 rogue splash now
thnx for the idea :)

Do it. Make sure you grind out an ESoS so your ghost can look even more spectacular.

[somenewnoob]

The epeen size contest is just flowing. I might not be able to get my eyes pointed straight after rolling them back this far.

[ORIGINALBAG0]

The epeen size contest is just flowing. I might not be able to get my eyes pointed straight after rolling them back this far.

Personally, I'm doing it harder than I've ever done it before. Even considering petitioning them to let my greenis bend in the middle.

[ArkoHighStar]

Errmmm maybe they spalsh it for more than just a tad more Reflex... maybe Evasion, maybe Skill points, maybe Sneak damage, maybe Wis/AC or stance benefits for Monks... do others tell you how to build your toons, do you pay their subs or buy their TP's... guess that kinda means each to their own.
Not sure why you dislike the splashes, seeing that yours seem to have them but hey if you don't like competion in your your groups then make it clear on your LFM's, no biggy.

In my experience of this game some of the better toon builds have been developed using such multiclasses as you seem to hate.. or maybe that's the route of the issue, maybe they make your toons seem a little...insignificant :D

your response is

http://howlingforjustice.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/epic-fail.jpg

[Chai]

How many people who have 2 rogue levels did not put in for full UMD skill points, did not take the +3SA damage enhancement or the haste boost enhancement?

How many people with 2 monk levels made craptastic feat choices with those 2 extra feats and are also not benefitting from the plus to a specific stat through being in a stance, wis to AC, etc?

My money is on that these are likely newer players who will learn better character building as time passes, and will benefit from an LR when they look at their own build and /facepalm, now that they understand the game mechanics better to make overall more benefitting build choices.

[Aztek]

Don't make me turn this thread around, you two!

But seriously... I have 18/2 fighter/rogue and his dex tops at 24 with gear, etc. can't remember if i put a tome on him or not. so according to myddo, his reflex is 22. that's not great. I seem to remember you wannna have 30+ to be meaningful on the hard stuff right? so even with GH, etc. it's not up there.

He's not very good on all but the normalest or below-level traps etc, but the UMD helps me use a lot of equipment/weapons i couldn't normally.

So it might be more worthwhile to go full 20 fighter and get the capstone, which also means (I think) i can switch back to full plate instead of mithral breastplate or whatnot (don't have dragontouched on that guy, i don't play him a ton)?

i guess it really depends on how often that reflex save helps or how many crazy good UMD items i really need and can i live without them? I mean i have a 7 or so CHA so i'm only talking weapons and items that are in the UMD 20-24 range - i really can't hit any heal scrolls etc.

Thoughts?

PS DON'T TELL ME HOW TO ROLL MY CHARACTER.
WAIT, no, in this case i AM asking how to roll my character. Ignore previous yelling. I will save it for a different thread where the OP has more of an attitude that deserves it ;)

[Chette]

But seriously... I have 18/2 fighter/rogue and his dex tops at 24 with gear, etc. can't remember if i put a tome on him or not. so according to myddo, his reflex is 22. that's not great. I seem to remember you wannna have 30+ to be meaningful on the hard stuff right? so even with GH, etc. it's not up there.

He's not very good on all but the normalest or below-level traps etc, but the UMD helps me use a lot of equipment/weapons i couldn't normally.

So it might be more worthwhile to go full 20 fighter and get the capstone, which also means (I think) i can switch back to full plate instead of mithral breastplate or whatnot (don't have dragontouched on that guy, i don't play him a ton)?

i guess it really depends on how often that reflex save helps or how many crazy good UMD items i really need and can i live without them? I mean i have a 7 or so CHA so i'm only talking weapons and items that are in the UMD 20-24 range - i really can't hit any heal scrolls etc.

Thoughts?

PS DON'T TELL ME HOW TO ROLL MY CHARACTER.
WAIT, no, in this case i AM asking how to roll my character. Ignore previous yelling. I will save it for a different thread where the OP has more of an attitude that deserves it ;)

Are you wearing resist +5 anywhere? Might want to try and slot that in. You can always get +3 from a nightshield clicky if you can't fit it. That should get you to a decent number, not uber, but still making quite a few saves. It really depends on what kind of questing you're doing.

I have a 2-rogue splashed character with a ~34 reflex save, and she wears medium armor 90% of the time because the evasion just doesn't make a difference. I still get plenty of benefit from the rogue levels, and I know that when I need my evasion, I can swap into my robes.

[ORIGINALBAG0]

Don't make me turn this thread around, you two!

But seriously... I have 18/2 fighter/rogue and his dex tops at 24 with gear, etc. can't remember if i put a tome on him or not. so according to myddo, his reflex is 22. that's not great. I seem to remember you wannna have 30+ to be meaningful on the hard stuff right? so even with GH, etc. it's not up there.

He's not very good on all but the normalest or below-level traps etc, but the UMD helps me use a lot of equipment/weapons i couldn't normally.

So it might be more worthwhile to go full 20 fighter and get the capstone, which also means (I think) i can switch back to full plate instead of mithral breastplate or whatnot (don't have dragontouched on that guy, i don't play him a ton)?

i guess it really depends on how often that reflex save helps or how many crazy good UMD items i really need and can i live without them? I mean i have a 7 or so CHA so i'm only talking weapons and items that are in the UMD 20-24 range - i really can't hit any heal scrolls etc.

Thoughts?

PS DON'T TELL ME HOW TO ROLL MY CHARACTER.
WAIT, no, in this case i AM asking how to roll my character. Ignore previous yelling. I will save it for a different thread where the OP has more of an attitude that deserves it ;)

Basically what Chette said. It's not easy to get the reflew save high enough on an evasion splash. The only time I pulled it off to a satisfactory extent was with a pally splash as well for charisma bonus to saves. Even then, I found myself crafting a triple air greensteel and using an ENTIRE equipment slot for exceptional reflex saves. I recommend the greensteel route. +8 reflex and air guard rules.

[MsEricka]

so according to myddo, his reflex is 22

Add a resist +5 item and GH and it's now a 31. If you haven't taken a tome that's another point, and a +2 shrine from a guild ship brings it to 33. If you really need it a yugo pot for a 34 total.

34 doesn't sound so bad to me.

[Bloodstealer]

The OP was about people who take rogue levels to get evade even when their reflex save is terrible. You, on the other hand, keep posting how the OP is about boosting one's reflex save using rogue levels and how this is short-sighted because maybe those people want to get things like evade in their builds. Can you not see how mixed up that is?

/Heighten on
/Cast confusion
Rolled a 20, critical hit!

Incorrect - I was merley stating that not everyone who builds their toon with 2 levels of rogue does so FOR evasion etc, etc they may have other reasons or maybe are just looking at experimenting.. as the OP stated he had already dumped it on a few of his... suggesting he made the very error in his build that he wishes to call out...
What I have little time for in this game, is others telling me how to build my toon or what I should of taken or not taken... like I said pay my subs then maybe I'll let you have an opinion on my next build, otherwise each to their own.

Bottom line is it is up to the individual on how they build their toon... of course we could just all DD back to the forums and copycat builds thinking that one size fits all couldn't we.

[Kalari]

When I multi class or splash I have an idea in my head in mind of what I want to do with the build. Whether it works out or not who knows I know I had to scrap builds before due to them not gelling right but I am allowed to try I mean I do pay a subscription to you know have fun and create my own characters unless the op wants to start paying for it I wont mind really.

Honestly I get it people who build sucky builds take away from your fun if they get into your groups. But telling people how to build is a tad bit too much. I dont pay for other peoples fun and if they want to rogue up their builds for the so called evasion without being able to get traps I may shake my head and move a long but I wont go telling them how to play the game. They like the build they like the build theirs not enough advice or crying on the boards over it thats going to change someones mind.

But go on keep telling people how to build I like shouting at brick walls when I am mad to doesnt do much but it does get the poison out :p

[Krag]

I have 18/2 fighter/rogue and his dex tops at 24 with gear, etc. can't remember if i put a tome on him or not. so according to myddo, his reflex is 22. that's not great.



Add a resist +5 item and GH and it's now a 31. If you haven't taken a tome that's another point, and a +2 shrine from a guild ship brings it to 33. If you really need it a yugo pot for a 34 total.

34 doesn't sound so bad to me.

Hmm...

[luvirini]

It is fairly easy to get a meaningfull reflex save. My halforc barbarian10/fighter4/rogue2 has starting dex 12 and selfbuffed reflex 27 long term/33 for 2 minutes/rest with uncanny dodge at level 16 without having to been built as a special reflex build(instead she is a DPS). The 26 is more than enough to be very usefull at that level and hitting uncunny dodge as you run towards something requiring reflex saves is easy enough.

[ORIGINALBAG0]

When I multi class or splash I have an idea in my head in mind of what I want to do with the build. Whether it works out or not who knows I know I had to scrap builds before due to them not gelling right but I am allowed to try I mean I do pay a subscription to you know have fun and create my own characters unless the op wants to start paying for it I wont mind really.

Honestly I get it people who build sucky builds take away from your fun if they get into your groups. But telling people how to build is a tad bit too much. I dont pay for other peoples fun and if they want to rogue up their builds for the so called evasion without being able to get traps I may shake my head and move a long but I wont go telling them how to play the game. They like the build they like the build theirs not enough advice or crying on the boards over it thats going to change someones mind.

But go on keep telling people how to build I like shouting at brick walls when I am mad to doesnt do much but it does get the poison out :p

OG

At no point has this been a "build the way I say or you aren't welcome to my groups" thread. As a matter of fact, I actually ENJOY having people with weird builds in my parties on the rare occasions that I run something NOT entirely in guild or with the people I know. From time to time, I actually find myself learning something new from people with builds I never thought would work. And I CONSTANTLY roll up stupid characters that will never work for the challenge of making them viable. I'm just offering advice. I see a whole lot of people running around talking up their evasion and dying in an acid trap on normal. I get that it doesn't always work until you have the gear. I have personally ground out said gear so I can make evasion work for myself. Just letting people who have ideas that are equally as ****ty as mine know what's up.

[Chette]

Hmm...

With gear doesn't necessarily mean with the right gear, since he specifically said he didn't have DT armor yet and doesn't play him much.

[fluffybunnywilson]

I did not assume anything or if I did then it was merely because your opening statement was in itself an assumption that players only put 2 rogue or Monk levels in their build in order to boost their Reflex saves... which is not the case, in many many builds.

It's an assumption and there are some builds that splash 1 or more levels of Rogue for something other than Evasion.

Most of the benefit that comes from the Rogue or Monk splash that most people take is the Evasion, though. That leads to two main suggestions -

1) Get a better Reflex save so that the Evasion actually means something or
2) drop the Rogue or Monk levels in favor of something that is actually worthwhile.


If you really do have significant benefits from those Rogue or Monk levels aside from the Evasion, then you're pretty likely to have a good Reflex save as well - since you actually planned ahead. The people who made good characters don't need this thread and they already know that.

There's a WHOLE LOT of people out there who made characters with a splash of Rogue or Monk for the Evasion, though - and those people need to either get a decent Reflex save or understand that the Evasion isn't going to do them any good.

[Healemup]

Maybe the original post could have been more simply stated.

If you plan on evasion in your build, you need a decent reflex save to take advantage of it.

I made a strength based rogue/tempest ranger that I thought would be uber cool, until I realized that dumping dex not only made my reflex blow, but I dumped it so far that I couldn't even take full advantage of the two weapon fighting feats... ;-)

[MsEricka]

As above, it doesn't state which gear. So if he already has a +5 resist item then the save would be 29.

Grab connors, gilvenors or kilau's and put exc dex 2 for a total of 9dex, i would assume he's only got 6 now so it's back up to 30. Need to find one more dex (+7 dex item/+3 tome?) to make it a 31.

My point was that the right gear and buffs can make a hell of a difference.

[cforce]

Please stop splashing two levels of rogue or monk when your reflex save sucks. You aren't helping yourself or anyone else by losing your capstone to successfully evade on a 20.

I think this advice is backwards.

Please stop tanking your reflex save when you splash two levels of rogue or monk.

There. Fixed.

[Vint]

You can roll any character you want and have 200 reflex for all I care. I will take a person with a 3 reflex, that actually knows how to play his toon.

It has been proven before that almost any build can be playable by a person that knows what they are doing. The influx of "bad builds" are not neccesarily bad, just the person behind the keyboard is an idiot.

[ORIGINALBAG0]

I think this advice is backwards.

Please stop tanking your reflex save when you splash two levels of rogue or monk.

There. Fixed.

Yeah. That. 100% what I'm going for, here. But, in the same breath, if you aren't willing to un-tank your reflex save, you might consider doing something else with those two levels. I find barbarian to be a lovely two-level splash. 10% faster movement, sprint boost, rages, 2AP for a point of constitution... It's joyous.

[Montrose]

Me thinks you mis-read.

Evasion isn't going to help you if you only save on a 20.

Actually, that's not true. Evasion will reduce your damage by 5% on anything that a reflex save can save against.

If I told you that you could take a feat to reduce your incoming damage by 5%, would you take it?

It may still not be woth the cost of a capstone, but it's not useless.

[Tymoriel_Ayreweaver]

Where is the cube when you need him.

[Canopenner]

yes.

The only reason to splash rogue would be to get evasion.

Everyone knows thats all thats good. ;^)

also quit splashing barb for extra HP! Its just not worth it! (what a dumb idea!)

if you have reflex thats bad then your obviously have a crappy rogue.

Hey? whats this spot skill do? Hmmm must be something....I had a dog named spot once...

well I would have the read whole thread an all...but some of these posts is prolly enough to come up with this reply.

[ORIGINALBAG0]

Actually, that's not true. Evasion will reduce your damage by 5% on anything that a reflex save can save against.

If I told you that you could take a feat to reduce your incoming damage by 5%, would you take it?

It may still not be woth the cost of a capstone, but it's not useless.

In a similar manner, if you could spend 2 LDS to increase that 5% to 50%, would you spend them? Slotting the items to increase that save can hurt a little, but it's not expensive.

[Asketes]

I think this advice is backwards.

Please stop tanking your reflex save when you splash two levels of rogue or monk.

There. Fixed.

Ah Cforce, always coming in with logic.

you've gotta stop doing that, it hurts other people's brains. lol

[Illiain]

Please stop splashing two levels of rogue or monk when your reflex save sucks. You aren't helping yourself or anyone else by losing your capstone to successfully evade on a 20.

I agree. Stop those useless 18 level barb/fighter splashes when pure rogue with the good capstone is so much better.

[Turtlsdown]

Incorrect - I was merley stating that not everyone who builds their toon with 2 levels of rogue does so FOR evasion etc, etc they may have other reasons or maybe are just looking at experimenting.. as the OP stated he had already dumped it on a few of his... suggesting he made the very error in his build that he wishes to call out...
What I have little time for in this game, is others telling me how to build my toon or what I should of taken or not taken... like I said pay my subs then maybe I'll let you have an opinion on my next build, otherwise each to their own.

Bottom line is it is up to the individual on how they build their toon... of course we could just all DD back to the forums and copycat builds thinking that one size fits all couldn't we.

You extrapolated my post into an argument about how you should design your toons. I said nothing of the sort. I was merely stating that you seemed to have missed what the OP was about. I wasn't the only one who noted this so it's possible you miscommunicated your thoughts in your post, in which case sorry for my original assumption.

[Jonny_D]

Errmmm maybe they spalsh it for more than just a tad more Reflex... maybe Evasion, maybe Skill points, maybe Sneak damage, maybe Wis/AC or stance benefits for Monks... do others tell you how to build your toons, do you pay their subs or buy their TP's... guess that kinda means each to their own.
Not sure why you dislike the splashes, seeing that yours seem to have them but hey if you don't like competion in your your groups then make it clear on your LFM's, no biggy.

In my experience of this game some of the better toon builds have been developed using such multiclasses as you seem to hate.. or maybe that's the route of the issue, maybe they make your toons seem a little...insignificant :D
not this

The OP was about people who take rogue levels to get evade even when their reflex save is terrible. You, on the other hand, keep posting how the OP is about boosting one's reflex save using rogue levels and how this is short-sighted because maybe those people want to get things like evade in their builds. Can you not see how mixed up that is?

/Heighten on
/Cast confusion
Rolled a 20, critical hit!
this

He's not talking about them splashing it for more reflex, he's talking about them splashing it for evasion, which is uselss when you have terrible reflex save. You're taking full damage on 1 through 19, so your evasion is not netting you anything.

I agree with you that there can be other good reasons to splash 2 monk or 2 rogue (though generally the main benefit is evasion) but you have grossly misinterpreted the OPs post.
and this

Me thinks you mis-read.

Evasion isn't going to help you if you only save on a 20.
and this

positive and negative rep was given for these posts
the neg was for going back for another stab at it after alrady not getting the OP in the first post