please remove harassing posts from PVP forums

[protokon]

or make a sticky that says any anti-pvp comments in a legitimate post discussing it is considered trolling, since closing a few threads wasn't clear enough.

edit: conversely, personal attacks on anti-pvp comments should also now be allowed.

[Therigar]

This has my support.

People opposed to PvP should simply ignore the PvP forums. For those unable to do so it should be against forum rules to post anti-PvP comments as it inhibits the right of others to post and impacts their enjoyment of the game.

Or, to quote Tolero, "While participating on the Community Sites, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community." Those posting anti-PvP messages in the PvP section clearly violate this standard.

[protokon]

This has my support.

People opposed to PvP should simply ignore the PvP forums. For those unable to do so it should be against forum rules to post anti-PvP comments as it inhibits the right of others to post and impacts their enjoyment of the game.

Or, to quote Tolero, "While participating on the Community Sites, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community." Those posting anti-PvP messages in the PvP section clearly violate this standard.

it really goes back to the old saying.

"if you have nothing nice to say, dont say anything at all".

[Uska]

We arent trolls just because we post against pvp in pvp threads we are making are thoughts clear we are against any and all dev time spent on pvp if we dont post then it could be taken as silent support for the thread. If someone posts a thread they had better be prepared for both negative and positive responses to it otherwise they shouldnt post at all.

Pvp fans should be allowed to ask for they want but if people like me want to post against it wwe should be allowed as well and both sides need to be repectiful when they post.

[Trillea]

"While participating on the Community Sites, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community."
I have the same right to express my dislike of PvP and request its removal as much as I expressed my dislike and requested the removal of the Offer Wall. Now PvP is not as bad as the offer wall as it does not threaten personal security, but I have every right to ask for its removal, as the Devs have every right to ignore my request as I am sure they will.

[Uska]

This has my support.

People opposed to PvP should simply ignore the PvP forums. For those unable to do so it should be against forum rules to post anti-PvP comments as it inhibits the right of others to post and impacts their enjoyment of the game.

Or, to quote Tolero, "While participating on the Community Sites, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community." Those posting anti-PvP messages in the PvP section clearly violate this standard.

Wrong if we dont voice are opinion it could be taken that we arent against furthering of pvp and any dev time spent on pvp takes away from my enjoyment of the game. You have the right to ask for pvp stuff and I have the right to speak againt it.

[Fridas]

I don't play PVP, but they should be allowed to have a forum and not be harassed all the time. Disagreements are fine and everyone's own opinion is fine, but respecting each others opinion rarely happens.

[protokon]

We arent trolls just because we post against pvp in pvp threads we are making are thoughts clear we are against any and all dev time spent on pvp if we dont post then it could be taken as silent support for the thread. If someone posts a thread they had better be prepared for both negative and positive responses to it otherwise they shouldnt post at all.

Pvp fans should be allowed to ask for they want but if people like me want to post against it wwe should be allowed as well and both sides need to be repectiful when they post.

your last comment is the entire point of my post - there is a big difference between saying:

/not signed, i don't like the idea of development time spent tweaking PVP because it interferes with the development of other content

and:

/not signed, pvp should die and OP is a troll for posting anything about tweaking PVP

it's just ridiculous how disrespectful people get over something that supposedly people don't care about.

[unknownturok]

We arent trolls just because we post against pvp in pvp threads we are making are thoughts clear we are against any and all dev time spent on pvp if we dont post then it could be taken as silent support for the thread. If someone posts a thread they had better be prepared for both negative and positive responses to it otherwise they shouldnt post at all.

Pvp fans should be allowed to ask for they want but if people like me want to post against it wwe should be allowed as well and both sides need to be repectiful when they post.
^this

[SilkofDrasnia]

your last comment is the entire point of my post - there is a big difference between saying:

/not signed, i don't like the idea of development time spent tweaking PVP because it interferes with the development of other content

and:

/not signed, pvp should die and OP is a troll for posting anything about tweaking PVP

it's just ridiculous how disrespectful people get over something that supposedly people don't care about.

this and well said (it goes both ways too)

[Postumus]

Wrong if we dont voice are opinion it could be taken that we arent against furthering of pvp and any dev time spent on pvp takes away from my enjoyment of the game. You have the right to ask for pvp stuff and I have the right to speak againt it.

Wrong. Simply not participating in PVP forums is sufficient to demonstrate your lack of support.


Simply voting 'no' to poll threads requesting more PvP content is sufficient to demonstrate your feelings.


Trolling under the flimsy rationalization of 'protesting' isn't fooling anyone and it is certainly not necessary.


There have already been edicts by the moderators for people who are anti-PVP to stop this type of behavior b/c it's clear to everyone what it is.

[Postumus]

I don't play PVP, but they should be allowed to have a forum and not be harassed all the time. Disagreements are fine and everyone's own opinion is fine, but respecting each others opinion rarely happens.

Same here. Not a big PVPer, but the harassment has become ridiculous. Let them have their forum.

[Uska]

Wrong. Simply not participating in PVP forums is sufficient to demonstrate your lack of support.


Simply voting 'no' to poll threads requesting more PvP content is sufficient to demonstrate your feelings.


Trolling under the flimsy rationalization of 'protesting' isn't fooling anyone and it is certainly not necessary.


There have already been edicts by the moderators for people who are anti-PVP to stop this type of behavior b/c it's clear to everyone what it is.

I have to disagree with you and I have never been warned about or had any of my posts against pvp removed as I am just voicing against my opinion when someone suggests something for pvp if I cant say something against it then they shouldnt be allowed to say it in the first place.

[Uska]

Same here. Not a big PVPer, but the harassment has become ridiculous. Let them have their forum.

They have their fourm and can ask all they want, it is not harassment to post agaisnt something and if someone thinks so then they need to look up the word again to see what it really mean.s

[khaldan]

This thread has gone on long enough. Players should be allowed to discuss suggestions to improve PvP in this section of the forums, as long as they are following the forum guidelines. Players should not be replying with off-topic statements, including statements that are nothing more than essentially "I don't like PvP." Personal attacks and the like are also not allowed, of course.

I'm all for arguing against pvp, or arguing for it. The part in bold is what people really need to stop doing.

[Postumus]

I have the same right to express my dislike of PvP and request its removal...

Not in the PvP forum you don't. And not over and over and over and over... that's considered harassment.

This has been addressed several times by the moderators - every time one of these threads pops up.

You won't win this argument, so you may as well just let PvP players have their ONE thread and let it go.

[Hendrik]

We arent trolls just because we post against pvp in pvp threads we are making are thoughts clear we are against any and all dev time spent on pvp if we dont post then it could be taken as silent support for the thread. If someone posts a thread they had better be prepared for both negative and positive responses to it otherwise they shouldnt post at all.

Pvp fans should be allowed to ask for they want but if people like me want to post against it wwe should be allowed as well and both sides need to be repectiful when they post.

Well said Uska!

I will continue to post my views on PvP whenever this hot topic is brought up.

[Yajerman01]

Well said Uska!

I will continue to post my views on PvP whenever this hot topic is brought up.


As long as your viwews are within the rule settigns I am fine, but most people end up flaming the poster or worse yet go off topic and flame. As the great Cubethulu said"

"...Players should be allowed to discuss suggestions to improve PvP in this section of the forums, as long as they are following the forum guidelines. Players should not be replying with off-topic statements, including statements that are nothing more than essentially "I don't like PvP." Personal attacks and the like are also not allowed, of course." (emphasis in yellow)

[Cordovan]

If the topic is about whether PvP in general terms is good, then a player would be keeping in topic by saying they don't like PvP. However, if a player is saying "I have X comment to say about a specific part of the PvP system" that player should not have their thread disrupted by off-topic posts which amount to essentially, "I don't like PvP."

We offer a PvP section of the forum to allow players to discuss the various aspects of PvP they enjoy (or don't enjoy.) These players should be allowed to discuss PvP in the section created to discuss the system.

[Trillea]

If the topic is about whether PvP in general terms is good, then a player would be keeping in topic by saying they don't like PvP. However, if a player is saying "I have X comment to say about a specific part of the PvP system" that player should not have their thread disrupted by off-topic posts which amount to essentially, "I don't like PvP."

We offer a PvP section of the forum to allow players to discuss the various aspects of PvP they enjoy (or don't enjoy.) These players should be allowed to discuss PvP in the section created to discuss the system.

This is a fair statement which is why I started the new thread.

[Therigar]

i don't like the idea of development time spent tweaking PVP because it interferes with the development of other content

First, you make an assumption that development time is being spent to tweak PvP.

Second, you make an assumption that any time spent could/would be better spent elsewhere.

The fact is that Turbine's development team can't release an update without breaking the game and any development time spent doing anything other than fixing a broken product is a waste of time.

Only that isn't even fact, since development time is valued based on sales. So Turbine doesn't care about your assumptions or about breaking the game every time they release a new update. All they care about is $$$.

And, as long as that keeps coming in no request for development of any type means anything to any of them.

[SaneDitto]

How'd that quote go? "Live and let live"?

/signed

[Hendrik]

As long as your viwews are within the rule settigns I am fine, but most people end up flaming the poster or worse yet go off topic and flame. As the great Cubethulu said"

"...Players should be allowed to discuss suggestions to improve PvP in this section of the forums, as long as they are following the forum guidelines. Players should not be replying with off-topic statements, including statements that are nothing more than essentially "I don't like PvP." Personal attacks and the like are also not allowed, of course." (emphasis in yellow)

My views are well outside the rule settings that Turbine has established for this Forum.

However, my postings are within and will be shared every time someone wants to change an aspect of the game to suit PvP.

Seen to many games destroyed by PvP and will not allow this one to be the next.

[toughguyjoe]

The part to this discussion that bothers me the most is that when a Player asks for something to be "Nerfed" or "Buffed" to suit PVP that reactions from PVE players that things should remain the same, for reasons that PVP balance should not be paramount over PVE balance, they are immediately displayed as "Trolls"

In the end PVP players and PVE players should get along, but having an opposing view point is not trolling, and people who dislike PVP but still form their opinions in an on topic way and are not insulting shouldn't be driven out of the PVP forums for simply not enjoying it.

[khaldan]

My views are well outside the rule settings that Turbine has established for this Forum.

However, my postings are within and will be shared every time someone wants to change an aspect of the game to suit PvP.

Seen to many games destroyed by PvP and will not allow this one to be the next.

Stating why a particular change is bad is perfectly fine, and is needed for debate.

Stating I don't like pvp, and here's why, and therefore this shouldn't be changed however, isn't.

There's starting to be a plethora of locked threads because people think the second statement is OK, because it's the pvp forum.

[Postumus]

or make a sticky that says any anti-pvp comments in a legitimate post discussing it is considered trolling, since closing a few threads wasn't clear enough.

I agree with this, but people still find ways to rationalize their posts.

"But but but I NEED TO POST HOW I HATE PVP OR ELSE THE DEVS WON'T KNOW HOW I FEEEEEL!!"

And then you get the obligatory rigamarole about 'free speech' and 'I'm just stating my opinion' - arguments so flimsy at this point that anyone with kids just sighs when they see it.

So I'm not sure a sticky would accomplish what you want. Probably just reporting every post you find objectionable - as you would other posts in any other part of the forum - and letting the moderators judge who is trolling and who is legit will be the only way to reduce the 'PVP DOESN'T BELONG IN DND' threads in the PvP forum.

[khaldan]

or make a sticky that says any anti-pvp comments in a legitimate post discussing it is considered trolling, since closing a few threads wasn't clear enough.

In at least one of the recently closed threads, it got moderated twice to take out personal insults, and calling the OP of the thread a troll. Anti pvp comments won't get removed, but personal attacks can, will, and have caused thread locks.

[SilkofDrasnia]

The part to this discussion that bothers me the most is that when a Player asks for something to be "Nerfed" or "Buffed" to suit PVP that reactions from PVE players that things should remain the same, for reasons that PVP balance should not be paramount over PVE balance, they are immediately displayed as "Trolls"

In the end PVP players and PVE players should get along, but having an opposing view point is not trolling, and people who dislike PVP but still form their opinions in an on topic way and are not insulting shouldn't be driven out of the PVP forums for simply not enjoying it.

in what i have seen its usaully the other way around (im not trying to say all pvp are nice little angels that post calmly etc lol) sometimes we see a thread about pvp start out nice and invariably some anti pvp come along making baiting/flamey/trollish/off-topic comments (the pvp then respond in kind) to try and get the thread closed, again im not sayin all anti pvp do this

and so this is why i signed this as it seem this community cannot have a mature discussion on this subject without it going downhill eventually so clearly some form of moderation is required in these threads as well as clear warnings to each side

[Postumus]

The part to this discussion that bothers me the most is that when a Player asks for something to be "Nerfed" or "Buffed" to suit PVP that reactions from PVE players that things should remain the same, for reasons that PVP balance should not be paramount over PVE balance, they are immediately displayed as "Trolls"

In the end PVP players and PVE players should get along, but having an opposing view point is not trolling, and people who dislike PVP but still form their opinions in an on topic way and are not insulting shouldn't be driven out of the PVP forums for simply not enjoying it.

That's legit discussion. Discussing what/why/when things should be changed that affect the game - PvP or PvE- is probably one of the main reasons this forum exists.

I'm referring to the types of threads (as I'm assuming the OP is as well) such as the one that got posted in the PvP forum earlier with titles like "PVP HAS NO PLACE IN DND!! GET RID OF IT!!"

[TheDearLeader]

I thought the PvP forums were specifically for Player vs. Player attacks?

Oh... that's not right? My bad. :)

In all seriousness, though:

People come here and complain about PvP for many reasons. One reason which I find to be quite valid is that *we*, as paying customers, should at least in part direct where the game goes. Right? Bungie wouldn't have made any money with Halo if they changed the Covenant into Hello Kitty characters. The market wanted soldiers vs. aliens, that's what they got.

Likewise, Turbine's best interests are served by looking at the community as a whole, and determining what the majority of paying customers want to see happen. Note: Paying Customers =/= Forumites. These numbers are independent of one another.

However, any time spent on PvP is time that the same human being (Developer) could have possibly spent fixing a Bug, or creating new content, or "tweaking" a spell, PrE, or special ability. For those who are purely PvE focused, any "Dev Time" spent on the PvP aspect is, essentially, "Dev Time" lost.

So, you see the negativity, you see "I don't want PvP because I hate it zomg it suxx0rz", ~etc similar statements/interpretations.

In truth, many would like to express, quite constructively, "I do not support this action on the basis that I would prefer you work on something over there'ish."

Forums aside, I would *hope* that Turbine has a way of collecting statistics on where their VIP/Premium customers spend their in-game time, and determine that only a small percentage (I'd guess less than 2%) spend more time in PvP situations than they do PvE.

Free Players, and I mean *purely* Free Players, never a dime spent on the game, should not count. Why? Because they aren't the financial backing for this game being what it is. That's like a restaurant tailoring it's food tastes based upon the Bums who live in the alley behind the restaurant.

[justhavinfun]

IMO whenever a player post a thread asking for a class, ability, spell, etc. to be changed the thread should be opened for all to discuss. I do agree that the name calling is uncalled for.

It must be remembered that DDO is a PVE based game. Any changes that would change the way things work in the more numerous PVE areas should be open for all to answer. I have seen all too many threads asking for the Devs to nerf this or nerf that because I died in PVP. Sorry but death is a part of the game PVE and PVP alike. Crying on the forums and asking the Devs to change something so that you can rule PVP is not the answer.

By the way I do not like or participate in the PVP areas of DDO. The main reason for this is that I see no point in it. You gain no experiance, plat, loot, or anything that furthers the advancement of your character. The only thing you may gain is some bragging rights that probraly matter to noone else but you.

If and when I feel the need for PVP I simply log onto one of the other games I play that was created around the PVP enviroment.

[elixer1]

/signed

I don't like pvp and I don't look at the pvp forums (personal opinion, and I respect everyones different tastes). But I see them in the most recent threads list, and often they have very provocative subject lines, and lots of drama, so it's little hard for me to ignore.

But the people who enjoy pvp should be denied my opportunistic jokes about "Street Fighter II" and PvE assertions. (meant in jest and I hope it makes a few folks laugh, as we all like what we like.)

[TheDearLeader]

(meant in jest and I hope it makes a few folks laugh, as we all like what we like.)

I don't like people liking what they like, nor do I like laughter. Please nerf both of these, to be more in line with my opinions.

Also, please nerf nerfing. It's OP.

[flynnjsw]

The only time a post should be removed is if it is against community rules. If all someone is doing is stating a dissenting opinion, then they have every right to post. It works both ways.

[khaldan]

IMO whenever a player post a thread asking for a class, ability, spell, etc. to be changed the thread should be opened for all to discuss.

This is one of the things DDO did do right with pvp: Abilities don't work the same in pvp, and some have heavily changed effects from how they act in pve. Otto's irresistable dance is 3d3+3 seconds on a player, but a different amount on a monster. Changing an ability in pvp only shouldn't affect pve at all.

[fluffybunnywilson]

"While participating on the Community Sites, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community."

Shouldn't PvP proponents respect the rights of PvP opponents to participate in the community as well?

[Memnir]

I usually only speak up in PvP threads when there is a suggested rule-change that I disagree with. And, disagreement is not harassment - even if the OP may not see it that way. Perhaps greater focus could be used in how that disagreement is phrased. But, simply not sharing the OP's opinion, or not /signing a thread does not immediately mean harassment.


Should the real harassment be dealt with? Yes, and it usually is.
Should there be no discussion or dissent? No, opinions are valid even if they are not what the OP wanted to hear; provided they don't cross the line(s) already set by the Community Guidelines.

[toughguyjoe]

Changing an ability in pvp only shouldn't affect pve at all.

That's one of the main problems in DDO. When their proverbial butterfly flaps its wings(A small change to mechanics) then there is usually some sort of earthquake elsewhere(Major far reaching problems that require a hotfix.)

That is one of the main reasons PVE players don't want PVP changes implemented very often, or at all. When something is changed, key elements of the game(Recently, Red Fens. Yes I know it was not PVP related, but I'm speaking about change..) become unusable for some time

:(

[Cyr]

If the topic is about whether PvP in general terms is good, then a player would be keeping in topic by saying they don't like PvP. However, if a player is saying "I have X comment to say about a specific part of the PvP system" that player should not have their thread disrupted by off-topic posts which amount to essentially, "I don't like PvP."

We offer a PvP section of the forum to allow players to discuss the various aspects of PvP they enjoy (or don't enjoy.) These players should be allowed to discuss PvP in the section created to discuss the system.

Are off topic comments considered violations of the TOS now and valid for negative rep and reporting? I guess I'm trying to figure out if pvp just got a special exception or the forums have a pretty large new rule here.

[ddoplayer064]

Yes, let's bind the mouths of people that have the temerity to have a different opinion.

[jackabat]

Forums aside, I would *hope* that Turbine has a way of collecting statistics on where their VIP/Premium customers spend their in-game time, and determine that only a small percentage (I'd guess less than 2%) spend more time in PvP situations than they do PvE.

Pretending your 2% is right, I don't think it's unreasonable for PVP players to want about 2% of dev time. 2%'s a lot different than 0%.



Free Players, and I mean *purely* Free Players, never a dime spent on the game, should not count. Why? Because they aren't the financial backing for this game being what it is. That's like a restaurant tailoring it's food tastes based upon the Bums who live in the alley behind the restaurant.

Free Players do contribute to the game. They fill up pugs, they put stuff on the auction house, they get their friends (who then spend money) to play with them. Presumably some die in the brawl pit too. Many eventually buy an adventure pack or monk class or something after months of play. I'm sure turbine would rather they be VIPs, but turbine isn't letting free players play out of charity.

[Yajerman01]

The part to this discussion that bothers me the most is that when a Player asks for something to be "Nerfed" or "Buffed" to suit PVP that reactions from PVE players that things should remain the same, for reasons that PVP balance should not be paramount over PVE balance, they are immediately displayed as "Trolls"

In the end PVP players and PVE players should get along, but having an opposing view point is not trolling, and people who dislike PVP but still form their opinions in an on topic way and are not insulting shouldn't be driven out of the PVP forums for simply not enjoying it.


thats what I do not get. If you are a person that does not like pvp, then most of those sentiments are already skewed at any improvment of pvp; moreover, people who do not like pvp already do not participate in its activity.

I am all for voiceing an opinion as to whether a form of implemntation should be adressesd. however,the rationale behind those opposed to PVP generalize any implementation as a server wide negative effect.

Turbine has the power to code and or improve aspects of PVP that do not effect PVE, they just opt not to.

The general consesus from all anti-pvpers is thusly:
1. It takes away from dev time for new content.
2. it will adversly effect pve.

My response to this is:
1. from what I know there are dev's dedicated to certain aspects of the game, i.e. PVP
2. I have yet to see a spell altered or taken away in the PVP arena that adversley effects PVE

Then usually the last recourse of the anti-pvpers is:
1. Well its my money and pvp is a waste
2. PVP has ruined other games

My response is:
1. Its my money to.
2. Everyone knows that DDO is about PVE, this is a side sink for people who cant quest all the time or intermittently enjoy bashing on another. This game has been around for 5+ years and will always be about PVE as its primary. The sky is falling mentality needs to go.


The logic behind anti-pvpers is about PVP ruining the game period.
the logic behind the pro-pvpers is generally about advancement or betterment of what little pvp there is.

This issue is not black and white, there is alot of grey in between, but what I generally see in the forums when someone post in the PVP section and they want to talk about a spell they are for or against, the anti-pvpers then respond, not because they want a spell or issue resolved, blocked, added, they chime in on the fact that it is PVP, period, and generally the above mentioned rationals come to play, guaranteed.

My point is, if you do not PVP, you dont liket PVP then I fail to understand why your opinning in the first place when most of the issues reviolve around the "act" of pvping.

[Chai]

or make a sticky that says any anti-pvp comments in a legitimate post discussing it is considered trolling, since closing a few threads wasn't clear enough.

I think people need to be able to discuss the issue without having to quote everyone who disagrees with their suggestion and tell them they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about. PVP threads evolve into this more often than not. Telling the anti-PVP crowd they cant provide their feedback is rubbish. Telling the pro-PVP crowd to go somewhere else for their PVP experience is equally rubbish.

Trolling in this instance is being based on a matter of opinion. I dont approve of the disagreement = trolling claims that are made in feedback and suggestion threads.

[fluffybunnywilson]

If the topic is about whether PvP in general terms is good, then a player would be keeping in topic by saying they don't like PvP. However, if a player is saying "I have X comment to say about a specific part of the PvP system" that player should not have their thread disrupted by off-topic posts which amount to essentially, "I don't like PvP."

We offer a PvP section of the forum to allow players to discuss the various aspects of PvP they enjoy (or don't enjoy.) These players should be allowed to discuss PvP in the section created to discuss the system.

The part that confuses me about this post is that no one is preventing PvP fans from participating in the forums in any way.

If I went into the spellcasters forums and posted "I don't think that FvS should exist in DDO. Clerics are all of the primary divine casting class that DDO needs", I wouldn't be preventing FvS from playing the game or from participating in the forums in any way.

That would probably be an unpopular position to take, but I really don't understand how holding (and sharing) that opinion stops people from discussing Favored Souls in the section created to discuss the system.

"I don't like PvP and would like to see it removed from DDO" is just as valid a position as "I love PvP and I particularly enjoy aspects X, Y and Z in PvP". Can someone explain to me how holding *either* of those positions prevents anyone from discussing PvP in section created to discuss the system?

[flynnjsw]

My point is, if you do not PVP, you dont liket PVP then I fail to understand why your opinning in the first place when most of the issues reviolve around the "act" of pvping.

It does not matter WHY someone is stating their opinion. They have just as much right to their opinion, and just as much right to state it as you do.

[Postumus]

Note: Paying Customers =/= Forumites. These numbers are independent of one another.

Free Players, and I mean *purely* Free Players, never a dime spent on the game, should not count. Why? Because they aren't the financial backing for this game being what it is.

I couldn't agree more.

That's why the 'but if I don't post how much I hate it, then the devs will think I SUPPORT IT!" arguments are bunk.

I'm sure Turbine has a very good idea, much better than people speculating here, how many players spend $$, on what, and what they spend their time playing.

[toughguyjoe]

however,the rationale behind those opposed to PVP generalize any implementation as a server wide negative effect.

Turbine has the power to code and or improve aspects of PVP that do not effect PVE, they just opt not to.

The general consesus from all anti-pvpers is thusly:
1. It takes away from dev time for new content.
2. it will adversly effect pve.


Then usually the last recourse of the anti-pvpers is:
1. Well its my money and pvp is a waste
2. PVP has ruined other games



The logic behind anti-pvpers is about PVP ruining the game period.


I don't want to get into too large a debate on this, but your generalizations about anti-PVP players are as silly as Anti-PVP players making generalizations about PVP play, or its implementations.

We could quote each other for hours noting times players from both camps have acted wrongly, but the main fact here is that sometimes, just sometimes, players comment with well thought out opinions on why/how a PVP "nerf" or "Buf" may effect PVE or vice versa.

In that vein, Anti-PVP players do not deserve to have their mouths sewn shut simply because of their opinion.

[Yajerman01]

In that vein, Anti-PVP players do not deserve to have their mouths sewn shut simply because of their opinion.

In that vein, I do not disagree with you in having an opinion on something completely away from your own point of view. but just becasue you have the right to opine does nto mean you should just for the sake of doing so.

But then I am talking formalities because I do not jump into a sorcer post and give my opinion on a sorcer build/spells what have you, just because I can, I do not because it does not concern me.

[khaldan]

That's one of the main problems in DDO. When their proverbial butterfly flaps its wings(A small change to mechanics) then there is usually some sort of earthquake elsewhere(Major far reaching problems that require a hotfix.)

That is one of the main reasons PVE players don't want PVP changes implemented very often, or at all. When something is changed, key elements of the game(Recently, Red Fens. Yes I know it was not PVP related, but I'm speaking about change..) become unusable for some time

:(

This is true, and a valid concern. The solution is to get more people to test new content on mournlands, or lammania, to find all of the far reaching bugs.

It seems that currently turbine beta testers only test the new content for bugs, not as much as possible to find any bugs. Hopefully this will get better with the new mournlands testers.

[Kalari]

As I said in the thread I put up about PVP and in many threads when I had petitioned for in game changes/ additions you have to deal with this stuff. For everyone who maybe in your corner you may have a ton more who are against it. Its the nature of the boards. If it gets to you maybe the thing your pushing for isnt worth it. When I want something for the game be it fluff, mechanics change or even pvp (which im still not convinced we need but trying to be open minded) I just dont go back and forth I let both sides speak their minds and get my point across.

Forum pvp is funny though if people spent half the time they did arguing back and forth with each other on why it is/isnt needed many more ideas could be put forth. I wish people would put more energy in suggestions to make the game more well rounded then bickering but meh what can ya do? :rolleyes:


Edit and to sound like a broken record yet again. Back when I made threads on housing I heard all the same things pvp enthusiast heard and then some. Round one I fought hard going back and forth risking infractions because I though "oh these trolls are attacking me." Round two I wisened up no matter what anyone said all you can do is put forth an idea, people are going to hate on anything that they think takes away from what they find important in the game. Honestly the thread I put up had quite a few people in it saying things like "id pay to get pvp taken out of the game." And to be honest while unnecessary didnt hurt me one bit I looked shook my head and tried to respond to those taking the thread seriously. Thats what I think anyone seriously looking for changes should do.

[Chai]

If the topic is about whether PvP in general terms is good, then a player would be keeping in topic by saying they don't like PvP. However, if a player is saying "I have X comment to say about a specific part of the PvP system" that player should not have their thread disrupted by off-topic posts which amount to essentially, "I don't like PvP."

We offer a PvP section of the forum to allow players to discuss the various aspects of PvP they enjoy (or don't enjoy.) These players should be allowed to discuss PvP in the section created to discuss the system.

I agree, but it doesnt stop there. When other players who disagree with the X comment about a specific part of PVP are doing so due to the fact that they like "everything goes PVP", and not "cherrypicked abilities PVP", and this results in every single one of those who disagree being quoted and told they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about, this is the single largest reason why these PVP threads go nowhere fast.

Analyze the threads that were closed and witness the pattern based behavior. The minute someone disagrees with the suggestion and gives reasons, they are told they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about. There are MANY threads in the PVP forum which fit this description.

[Kamo]

I have the same right to express my dislike of PvP and request its removal as much as I expressed my dislike and requested the removal of the Offer Wall. Now PvP is not as bad as the offer wall as it does not threaten personal security, but I have every right to ask for its removal, as the Devs have every right to ignore my request as I am sure they will.

It is quite clear that the PVP THREAD is devoted soley for the furthuring of PVP in ddo, it is not to discriminate against it simply because you dislike it, and feel it should be removed. If you wish to voice your ANTI PVP opinion i recommend you do it in General discussion, not in this thread.

[flynnjsw]

. but just becasue you have the right to opine does nto mean you should just for the sake of doing so.


Why not?


But then I am talking formalities because I do not jump into a sorcer post and give my opinion on a sorcer build/spells what have you, just because I can, I do not because it does not concern me.

That is a personal choice. I chose not to as well, but I could if I wanted to. That is the point.



Comments in Red

[Gkar]

or make a sticky that says any anti-pvp comments in a legitimate post discussing it is considered trolling, since closing a few threads wasn't clear enough.

disagree with you is not trolling.

In the past the devs have been pretty clear in telling us that we need to say both if we like ideas, and if they don't, or they will take silence as support.

[MsEricka]

TL;DR

/not signed

You can't tell me not to state my opinions, just like I can't tell you not to state yours. It has nothing to do with "free speech" but rather equality.

[TheDearLeader]

Pretending your 2% is right, I don't think it's unreasonable for PVP players to want about 2% of dev time. 2%'s a lot different than 0%.

Or, they spend that 2% of time working on getting more/better/faster/less buggy content out, and their PvE majority pay them faster/more/better. Businesses make money by catering to the majority, not the niche.


Free Players do contribute to the game. They fill up pugs, they put stuff on the auction house, they get their friends (who then spend money) to play with them. Presumably some die in the brawl pit too. Many eventually buy an adventure pack or monk class or something after months of play. I'm sure turbine would rather they be VIPs, but turbine isn't letting free players play out of charity.

First, let me say there was a reason I stressed *completely Free to Play Players*. If they buy a Class/Content Pack/whatever with real life money (not ground-out TP), then they are now Premium, and no longer Free-To-Play. At that point where the transition occurs, be it even five dollars for the smallest point pack, is when Turbine should begin to at least consider a player's opinion.

To the rest: Free Players fill up Pugs - only to drop after taking 20 minutes of everyone's time to figure out they don't own the right content pack. They *do* put stuff on the Auction House - garbage that no one wants, and is unnecessary clutter. And they *do* bring friends to the game - but pulling a number out of thin air, I'd say less than a 10th of those friends actually start paying, if their original "referral" was also F2P.

[flynnjsw]

It is quite clear that the PVP THREAD is devoted soley for the furthuring of PVP in ddo, it is not to discriminate against it simply because you dislike it, and feel it should be removed. If you wish to voice your ANTI PVP opinion i recommend you do it in General discussion, not in this thread.

So it's discrimination to voice an Anti-PvP opinion, but not to tell someone of a differing opinion that they can't post? You really might want to rethink that.

[fluffybunnywilson]

It is quite clear that the PVP THREAD is devoted soley for the furthuring of PVP in ddo, it is not to discriminate against it simply because you dislike it, and feel it should be removed. If you wish to voice your ANTI PVP opinion i recommend you do it in General discussion, not in this thread.

While participating on the Community Sites, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community.


Please do not tell people that they cannot voice their on-topic opinions in the DDO forums of their own choosing. People who dislike PvP have a right to participate in the community too.

[BruceTheHoon]

it really goes back to the old saying.

"if you have nothing nice to say, dont say anything at all".

Very nicely put.

[khaldan]

This thread has gone on long enough. Players should be allowed to discuss suggestions to improve PvP in this section of the forums, as long as they are following the forum guidelines. Players should not be replying with off-topic statements, including statements that are nothing more than essentially "I don't like PvP." Personal attacks and the like are also not allowed, of course.
I'm all for arguing against pvp, or arguing for it. The part in bold is what people really need to stop doing.

Quoting myself, because people seem to be missing something here. Stating that a change to pvp is bad because it would do XXX is a perfectly fine thing, and should be posted.

Posting personal attacks however, is not. If you take a look at some of the locked threads, posts that disagree with the original post aren't deleted post moderation. Posts that are personal attacks, or just saying 'I dont like pvp, so this shouldn't be changed' however, get deleted.

[Phidius]

... (meant in jest and I hope it makes a few folks laugh, as we all like what we like.)

Not me - I hate that I like DDO as much as I do.

[SilkofDrasnia]

I agree, but it doesnt stop there. When other players who disagree with the X comment about a specific part of PVP are doing so due to the fact that they like "everything goes PVP", and not "cherrypicked abilities PVP", and this results in every single one of those who disagree being quoted and told they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about, this is the single largest reason why these PVP threads go nowhere fast.

Analyze the threads that were closed and witness the pattern based behavior. The minute someone disagrees with the suggestion and gives reasons, they are told they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about. There are MANY threads in the PVP forum which fit this description.

i would ask that you further analyze these threads and im pretty sure you will see much of this behavior was caused not really because someone disagreed with another opinion BUT because someone disagreed in a trollish manner, sometimes innocently sometimes with the express intent of baiting op for nefarious reasons look at last thread the cube closed and you will see its one amonst many.

again i will agree this can go both ways but stating that these pvp threads go nowhere fast because pvpers tell others they are clueless over and over because they dont like it when people disagree with them is false, i would rather say this happens when someone disagrees in a troll like manner and THEN it goes downhill.

its only normal for a some OP to argue his cause in his own thread when someone posts against his views.

[Gkar]

It is quite clear that the PVP THREAD is devoted soley for the furthuring of PVP in ddo, it is not to discriminate against it simply because you dislike it, and feel it should be removed. If you wish to voice your ANTI PVP opinion i recommend you do it in General discussion, not in this thread.

But wanting to change or remove PvP is something that belongs in the PvP forum. We have been told in the past that if we want posts read put them in the correct forum, don't dump them in general where most devs don't bother reading anything unless someone points the post out to them.

[KillEveryone]

/not signed

As much as you can come into any one of my threads and say that you dislike my idea for whatever reason, so should I be able to do the same. It works both ways.

I don't care to see any part of the PvE experience messed up because of a "balance" request for PvP. It can happen as you can see by other problems caused when something else gets fixed or an attempt to change or any new implementation.

Then there are cries for nerfs for certain things in PvP because someone can handle loosing and I'd rather see that gone.

[protokon]

I usually only speak up in PvP threads when there is a suggested rule-change that I disagree with. And, disagreement is not harassment - even if the OP may not see it that way. Perhaps greater focus could be used in how that disagreement is phrased. But, simply not sharing the OP's opinion, or not /signing a thread does not immediately mean harassment.


Should the real harassment be dealt with? Yes, and it usually is.
Should there be no discussion or dissent? No, opinions are valid even if they are not what the OP wanted to hear; provided they don't cross the line(s) already set by the Community Guidelines.

Memnir, I do completely understand that disagreement =/= harassment. what I am mostly referring to are the random, indirect insults and unnecessary comments that are only there to flame pvp or pvp-ers.

PVP exists in DDO. it is an extremely minute part of the game, but it is still there. If a topic is opened to discuss the removal of spells / abilities to help balance it, there is no grounds for comments about how pvp should die, be removed, how pvp-ers should stop whining, ect...

Cordovan, I also have a question about the guidelines. I understand that it is against the rules to re-open topics that have been closed, and it is apparent quite a few threads in here take directions not intended by the thread posters. If we wanted to continue discussing mechanics and changes in the lobster pit, specifically about a particular divine spell, are we allowed to do so?

[Chai]

i would ask that you further analyze these threads and im pretty sure you will see much of this behavior was caused not really because someone disagreed with another opinion BUT because someone disagreed in a trollish manner, sometimes innocently sometimes with the express intent of baiting op for nefarious reasons look at last thread the cube closed and you will see its one amonst many.

again i will agree this can go both ways but stating that these pvp threads go nowhere fast because pvpes tell others they are clueless over and over because dont like it when people disagree with them is false, i would rather say this happens when someone disagrees in a troll like manner and THEN it goes downhill.

its only normal for a some OP to argue his cause in his own thread when someone posts against his views.

So an OP is immune to trolling their own thread, eh? I disagree. I dont mind the OP bantering their stance. When everyone who disagrees with the OP is quoted by the OP and told they are clueless about PVP, this in my opinion is just as bad as someone barging in and saying they dont like PVP and it should be removed. Its promoting and enforcing the behavior that gets threads closed out in the first place.

Again, "trollish manner" is a matter of opinion and usually that label is slapped on someone who disagrees with you. How many people who agree with you do you slap the "troll" label onto?

I now count 29 different instances of people in PVP threads being told they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about because they disagreed with a suggestion and gave reasons for disagreeing (not for saying they hate PVP in general, but they were specific) - all of those people are not trolls for disagreeing with the suggestion. Sorry, I disagree with you. This definition of "troll" people are pushing is basically slapped on those who disagree.

[jackabat]

Or, they spend that 2% of time working on getting more/better/faster/less buggy content out, and their PvE majority pay them faster/more/better. Businesses make money by catering to the majority, not the niche.
I think I'm just not following the "few players play pvp, so no dev time should be spent" argument. Yes, PVP's a niche. A niche amount of dev time seems appropriate. If niche players didn't matter we wouldn't have stealth missions, 0% arcane spell failure shields, trap making, etc.

I... disagree with you on free players still. But I guess that's wandering off topic.

[protokon]

So an OP is immune to trolling their own thread, eh? I disagree. I dont mind the OP bantering their stance. When everyone who disagrees with the OP is quoted by the OP and told they are clueless about PVP, this in my opinion is just as bad as someone barging in and saying they dont like PVP and it should be removed. Its promoting and enforcing the behavior that gets threads closed out in the first place.

Again, "trollish manner" is a matter of opinion and usually that label is slapped on someone who disagrees with you. How many people who agree with you do you slap the "troll" label onto?

I now count 29 different instances of people in PVP threads being told they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about because they disagreed with a suggestion and gave reasons for disagreeing (not for saying they hate PVP in general, but they were specific) - all of those people are not trolls for disagreeing with the suggestion. Sorry, I disagree with you. This definition of "troll" people are pushing is basically slapped on those who disagree.

it's not about disagreeing chai. it's about disagreeing in a manner that's inappropriate and/or off topic to the suggestion.

there is no grounds to debate what is/isn't trolling here, that's up for the moderators to decide. harassing them by calling anyone who posts a suggestion a 'whiner' or a generic 'I hate pvp', 'don't spend any dev time on PVP,' is not disagreement - it is a comment not even related to the discussion and only meant to flame.

[SilkofDrasnia]

So an OP is immune to trolling their own thread, eh? I disagree.

Again, "trollish manner" is a matter of opinion and usually that label is slapped on someone who disagrees with you. How many people who agree with you do you slap the "troll" label onto?

I now count 29 different instances of people in PVP threads being told they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about because they disagreed with a suggestion and gave reasons for disagreeing (not for saying they hate PVP in general, but they were specific) - all of those people are not trolls for disagreeing with the suggestion. Sorry, I disagree with you. This definition of "troll" people are pushing is basically slapped on those who disagree.

i never said anything of the like i just said its normal for an OP to try and push for something hes suggesting and to try and get people to his way of thinking that what debating is isnt it lol the OP must be polite just as any other poster must my apologies if i didnt make this clear.

as for trolling again you keep insisting trolling is label slapped on when someone disagrees with you, as such your showing me dont know what trolling is.

you may very well have found what you found but did you go futher did you not see the op was perhaps baited into an emotional response and isnt that what trolling is once someone has been trolled/flamed its easy to overlook the original troll and accuse the one reacting and isnt that a trolls whole point? see what i mean

[TheDearLeader]

If niche players didn't matter we wouldn't have stealth missions, 0% arcane spell failure shields, trap making, etc.


Touche.

[protokon]

you many very well have found what you found but did you go futher did you not see the op was perhaps baited into an emotional response and isnt that what trolling is once someone has been trolled/flamed its easy to overlook the original troll and accuse the one reacting and isnt that a trolls whole point? see what i mean

http://catmacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/dizzying.jpg?w=600&h=450

I thought the reference was appropriate :D

[Bladedge]

Ah this is a PvP section for the in game PvP.
All this time I thought this PvP section was a unmoderated part of the DDO forums where players bash each other , so I just avoided this section all together.:D

PvP as a add-on to a game that didn't have PvP that was part of the original build turns out to be way terrible and poorly implemented then a game that is built with and around PvP from the beginning.

[Lifespawn]

your last comment is the entire point of my post - there is a big difference between saying:

/not signed, i don't like the idea of development time spent tweaking PVP because it interferes with the development of other content

and:

/not signed, pvp should die and OP is a troll for posting anything about tweaking PVP

it's just ridiculous how disrespectful people get over something that supposedly people don't care about.

pvp can stay for people that like it as long as they don't change how PVE is played just to balance pvp once they start doing that the gloves are off.

[Habreno]

pvp can stay for people that like it as long as they don't change how PVE is played just to balance pvp once they start doing that the gloves are off.

And since PvP can be altered without altering PvE you sir are 100% correct. +1 to you.

[Chai]

as for trolling again you keep insisting trolling is label slapped on when someone disagrees with you, as such your showing me dont know what trolling is.



Again, how many people who agree with your stance do you slap the "troll" label onto?

And here you are, telling me I dont know what something is, simply because I disagree with you. This clearly fits the description of exactly what I was making my point about. No more responses needed, as clearly I am not convincing you, and theres no need for a 75 post debate on the semantics of "trolling" - but you have certainly convinced me that disagreement will certainly be countered by claims that "you dont know what ________is" - fill in the blank with whatever the current debate is about. This reinforces the exact point I was making. We should be able to have this discussion without having to go there. This is why we cant have nice things in PVP threads. Either side should be able to make their specific point without the other side telling them they dont know what they are talking about. Civility blvd is a two way street.

[Lifespawn]

I think I'm just not following the "few players play pvp, so no dev time should be spent" argument. Yes, PVP's a niche. A niche amount of dev time seems appropriate. If niche players didn't matter we wouldn't have stealth missions, 0% arcane spell failure shields, trap making, etc.

I... disagree with you on free players still. But I guess that's wandering off topic.

they don't care about niche builds my intimisorc that just got nerfed to hell and back proves that,140 shrouds to make guards 5 epic items ground out and traded dearly for all for that char to be useless at what it used to do.

[Chai]

it's not about disagreeing chai. it's about disagreeing in a manner that's inappropriate and/or off topic to the suggestion.

there is no grounds to debate what is/isn't trolling here, that's up for the moderators to decide. harassing them by calling anyone who posts a suggestion a 'whiner' or a generic 'I hate pvp', 'don't spend any dev time on PVP,' is not disagreement - it is a comment not even related to the discussion and only meant to flame.

It clearly is about disagreeing. There are many responses by people who want no holds barred PVP in many threads where people disagree with "nerf or remove X ability" OPs - who have been told they are clueless noobs who clearly dont understand. This reinforces the negative behavior, but those people are never labeled trolls, because they agree with the OPs stance.

How many times has someone complained about "trolling" by someone who agrees with their stance. Really?

I feel that these discussions can be had without those types of comments by both sides. They generally do not, but labeling people on one side trolls while everyone on the other side is just innocently bantering their stance is clearly incorrect.

[aggravated]

Not in the PvP forum you don't. And not over and over and over and over... that's considered harassment.

This has been addressed several times by the moderators - every time one of these threads pops up.

You won't win this argument, so you may as well just let PvP players have their ONE thread and let it go.

everyone is entitled to their opinion in this world. just because u stamp a PVP title on a thread doesn't mean nobody is allowed to express their negative feelings toward it. granted, one doesn't need to beat a dead horse over it, but still, we are allowed to say whether or not we like the idea or not. if turbine were to institute the rule of "if u dont agree, dont post" idea then they would only be hearing ONE side of the coin and then base decisions on only one side of the argument. i hope i dont need to explain why this is a bad idea.

i do agree with u however that the posts regarding
And not over and over and over and over... that's considered harassment. there needs to be some respect on both sides when it comes to a forum discussion. this is all just my opinion of course. im neither for or against pvp.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Again, how many people who agree with your stance do you slap the "troll" label onto?

And here you are, telling me I dont know what something is, simply because I disagree with you. This clearly fits the description of exactly what I was making my point about. No more responses needed, as clearly I am not convincing you, and theres no need for a 75 post debate on the semantics of "trolling" - but you have certainly convinced me that disagreement will certainly be countered by claims that "you dont know what ________is" - fill in the blank with whatever the current debate is about. This reinforces the exact point I was making. We should be able to have this discussion without having to go there. This is why we cant have nice things in PVP threads. Either side should be able to make their specific point without the other side telling them they dont know what they are talking about. Civility blvd is a two way street.

again show me where i called you a troll i never did not once ! look it up and you will see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

or here are various examples http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=forum%20troll

as you can see basicly a troll likes to bait and get emotional responses.

this will also be my last response to you as its clear you dont even want to "try" and see another person point of view unlike i have tried and done with you. you clearly are of the mindset that your always right and never wrong

also no one is saying there are trolls just on one side they are some on both but i havent seen you acknowledge this once.

reading your posts i could say you think pvpers are always in the wrong and as such theyre opinion has no value ever and the poor anti pvpers are always being picked on and called trolls and are always right

[fluffybunnywilson]

as for trolling again you keep insisting trolling is label slapped on when someone disagrees with you, as such your showing me dont know what trolling is.

Trolling more than just disagreeing with someone.


Unfortunately, just disagreeing with someone who wants a change in PvP is often enough to generate claims of trolling.

[fluffybunnywilson]

And since PvP can be altered without altering PvE


If only that were really true. But then, if wishes were horses and all that...

[SilkofDrasnia]

Trolling more than just disagreeing with someone.


Unfortunately, just disagreeing with someone who wants a change in PvP is often enough to generate claims of trolling.


i can agree with that now can you also agree that telling someone that doesnt want pvp in this game or changes to it that you dont agree with em can cause trolling aswell.

also sometimes these threads degenerate via trolling in that someone goes way offtopic to try and bait "emotional" responses (whether they are good emotions or not is besides the point)

these are harder to see because mostly they are not called out or viewed in a negative fashion and the blame is shifted elsewhere

[protokon]

pvp can stay for people that like it as long as they don't change how PVE is played just to balance pvp once they start doing that the gloves are off.

me, along with anyone else who participates in pvp, agree with you 100%.

[fluffybunnywilson]

i can agree with that now can you also agree that telling someone that doesnt want pvp in this game or changes to it that you dont agree with em can cause trolling aswell.


No. You can't "cause" trolling with a post. You can intentionally troll with a post and some posts can make a person feel like they have been trolled even when they weren't, but simply stating that someone doesn't like a particular change to PvP or even that they want PvP removed from DDO entirely usually isn't a troll. It's usually a reaction to a perceived attack on what the person perceives as the core values of D&D. You may believe that it is an overreaction, but it's usually not a troll.

What I do perceive as trolling are the frequent comments that imply or outright state that anyone who disagrees with a proposed change to PvP either doesn't understand PvP or is somehow metally deficient and unworthy to state their opinions in that blessed thread.

[protokon]

everyone is entitled to their opinion in this world. just because u stamp a PVP title on a thread doesn't mean nobody is allowed to express their negative feelings toward it. granted, one doesn't need to beat a dead horse over it, but still, we are allowed to say whether or not we like the idea or not. if turbine were to institute the rule of "if u dont agree, dont post" idea then they would only be hearing ONE side of the coin and then base decisions on only one side of the argument. i hope i dont need to explain why this is a bad idea.

i do agree with u however that the posts regarding there needs to be some respect on both sides when it comes to a forum discussion. this is all just my opinion of course. im neither for or against pvp.

I agree 100% that it is not a one-sided attack. but it is very easy and clear to see why threads trying to discuss a valid point degenerate into e-peen contests in which people start to challenge one another's validity rather than debate pros/cons of the actual topic.

if someone comments "get rid of this ability for this reason" and another user posts "this is why pvp should die" or "stop whining and deal with it", nothing positive has been contributed.

for the rest of you guys, please don't argue about semantics of what trolling is/isn't. that wasn't my intention with this thread, I was merely trying to point out that most hate comments are unwarranted and need to go away.

there are other threads with topics concerning the removal of pvp, this isn't one of them.

[protokon]

What I do perceive as trolling are the frequent comments that imply or outright state that anyone who disagrees with a proposed change to PvP either doesn't understand PvP or is somehow metally deficient and unworthy to state their opinions in that blessed thread.

while that comment is a bit abrasive, I agree with it. just don't back up negative comments with unrelated reasoning:

/not signed because I hate pvp
/not signed because pvp should die
/not signed because no dev time should be spent on pvp
/not signed because I hate all the general chat caused by the lobster
/not signed and OP should stop whining

none of those comments have anything beneficial to add to a thread otther than to degenerate it into personal attacks.

[BLAKROC]

I agree 100% that it is not a one-sided attack. but it is very easy and clear to see why threads trying to discuss a valid point degenerate into e-peen contests in which people start to challenge one another's validity rather than debate pros/cons of the actual topic.

if someone comments "get rid of this ability for this reason" and another user posts "this is why pvp should die" or "stop whining and deal with it", nothing positive has been contributed.

for the rest of you guys, please don't argue about semantics of what trolling is/isn't. that wasn't my intention with this thread, I was merely trying to point out that most hate comments are unwarranted and need to go away.

there are other threads with topics concerning the removal of pvp, this isn't one of them.

this could be a remove pvp thread don't tell me what to post. if mods dont like it they can remove it.


pvp=meh :eek:

[SilkofDrasnia]

No. You can't "cause" trolling with a post. You can intentionally troll with a post and some posts can make a person feel like they have been trolled even when they weren't, but simply stating that someone doesn't like a particular change to PvP or even that they want PvP removed from DDO entirely usually isn't a troll. It's usually a reaction to a perceived attack on what the person perceives as the core values of D&D. You may believe that it is an overreaction, but it's usually not a troll.

What I do perceive as trolling are the frequent comments that imply or outright state that anyone who disagrees with a proposed change to PvP either doesn't understand PvP or is somehow metally deficient and unworthy to state their opinions in that blessed thread.

i agree but you see you quoted me out of context thus nullifying the meaning of what i was saying .

in fact you are even agreeing with my earlier statements that you cant troll just by disagreeing with someone if you read my previous post my meaning should be sufficiently clear.

i wont be posting in this anymore because as someone has pointed out im being led astray from the thread topic and thats not my intention

[Pape_27]

it's just ridiculous how disrespectful people get over something that supposedly people don't care about.

That street runs both ways in the pvp threads.

In the post that was eaten by the cube, I posed a series of things the op could have used to mitigate and lessen the damage of the spell in question. What did i get in return? a snarky comment. No discussion. No talk about the merit (or lack there of) of the ideas. Just an off hand dismissal.

The root of the problem is based on the idea of pvp'ers saying if you dont do it, I dont wanna listen. There it goes back and forth until it escalates. So please dont try to slough it off as anti-pvp trolling, because the trolling comes from both sides of the argument.

Like it or not, people should not have their ability to post in the pvp forums impinged just because you dont happen to like what they say.

_

[protokon]

That street runs both ways in the pvp threads.

In the post that was eaten by the cube, I posed a series of things the op could have used to mitigate and lessen the damage of the spell in question. What did i get in return? a snarky comment. No discussion. No talk about the merit (or lack there of) of the ideas. Just an off hand dismissal.

The root of the problem is based on the idea of pvp'ers saying if you dont do it, I dont wanna listen. There it goes back and forth until it escalates. So please dont try to slough it off as anti-pvp trolling, because the trolling comes from both sides of the argument.

Like it or not, people should not have their ability to post in the pvp forums impinged just because you dont happen to like what they say.

_

im not disagreeing with you, in fact if you read my previous comments I mentioned that it goes both ways, but is typically degenerated to the point of bashing eachother.

several 'solutions' in that thread were completely mis-informed comments regarding an entirely different ability. still irrelevant to the topic at hand, I am mostly referring to posts that simply state:

"OP is still crying about pvp? he should stop whining and suck it up", or "don't pvp if you dont like it", comments that have absolutely no value in the discussion at all.

[fluffybunnywilson]

while that comment is a bit abrasive, I agree with it. just don't back up negative comments with unrelated reasoning:

/not signed because I hate pvp
/not signed because pvp should die
/not signed because no dev time should be spent on pvp
/not signed because I hate all the general chat caused by the lobster
/not signed and OP should stop whining

none of those comments have anything beneficial to add to a thread otther than to degenerate it into personal attacks.

Other than the last of the /not signed, I don't see any of those reasons as personal attacks. I agree that they don't have anything significantly beneficial to add to the thread, but I also think that the overwhelming majority of the original posts in the PvP forum don't have anything beneficial to add to the thread either.

And yet, I don't try to tell people that they shouldn't make threads in the PvP forum.

[Pape_27]

im not disagreeing with you, in fact if you read my previous comments I mentioned that it goes both ways, but is typically degenerated to the point of bashing eachother.

several 'solutions' in that thread were completely mis-informed comments regarding an entirely different ability. still irrelevant to the topic at hand, I am mostly referring to posts that simply state:

"OP is still crying about pvp? he should stop whining and suck it up", or "don't pvp if you dont like it", comments that have absolutely no value in the discussion at all.

the problem is when most of these suggestions come out, they come out for one reason only. The attitude of people in that position is basically "i dont wanna deal with this, nerf it".

People react negatively to any mention of the nerf bat in this game. Combine that with the general dislike of pvp in the game, its like a proverbial perfect storm in terms of generating negative reactions.

_

[Kalari]

It's not that they dont care even if thats what someone is typing. PVP was not apart of DDO I am one of the people who used to be very vocal against pvp didnt care for it, still honestly don't but after a few years and jumping around to other games seeing how they manage to keep their pvp/pve environments separated I realized that if we can bring in more players and not have them effect our core game with any said changes I honestly wouldnt care anymore. Though it still feels strange to even think about pvp in dungeons and dragons this is ddo a video game mmo who now have opened the doors to more play styles and types. We arent the small tight knit place we used to be and we can either keep fighting things that will eventually change since its not really in our hands or we can mitigate how things like this are changed and implemented suggest good ideas and get it done right.

Either way too many personalities on this board and in game to ever expect your OP to be taken seriously. It is far easier to keep stressing your point and not letting jabs get at you then to try to crusade in stopping people from expressing their opinions on pvp. Why fight a useless battle when you could be doing more to get what you want out of the game put forth?

[BitkaCK2]

Man, I'm always late to all the cool parties... dang late shifts. Okay on with the show, both sides feel passionately about their position with regards to PvP and as such will argue their case vehemently. Since neither side will budge from their stance there cannot be a winner and the discussion will inevitably degenerate into an argumentative, name calling troll-fest. It is the nature of the beast. The trick is to remember that while humans are animals we are not beasts. That way when threads begin to degenerate we can try and keep it from becoming cube food. To be honest though in the case of PvP versus anti-PvP debates the best case scenario would end being like watching two identical robots playing ping pong.

Earlier in the thread this post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3786453&postcount=42) came up (quote snipped for brevity):


...snip...
This issue is not black and white, there is alot of grey in between, but what I generally see in the forums when someone post in the PVP section and they want to talk about a spell they are for or against, the anti-pvpers then respond, not because they want a spell or issue resolved, blocked, added, they chime in on the fact that it is PVP, period, and generally the above mentioned rationals come to play, guaranteed.

My point is, if you do not PVP, you dont liket PVP then I fail to understand why your opinning in the first place when most of the issues reviolve around the "act" of pvping.
If I may play devil's advocate (not demon troll) for a moment I do believe the issue is a bit more black and white than grey. Speaking for myself, part of the passion behind my anti-PvP is related to game changes for the sake of PvP in a PvE game. We can discuss and debate this until the cows come home but I have seen where such changes have slowly killed a game I loved and I cannot be convinced that I should keep quiet and say nothing. I will respectfully state my opinion, cite examples, posit potential game issues along with what ever else might be needed to make sure my concerns over some game change for the sake of PvP is heard*. Since this thread is more about 'how to opine without trolling' than 'this PvP change thing is bad' I won't digress into specifics. Suffice it to say I will respond with my opinion in a PvP thread when I feel it necessary (and when I have the time). What's that quote... "All evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing." ... something like that.

bitkaCK2



*I've been slacking lately due to some RL issues however things should ease up soon.

[protokon]

the problem is when most of these suggestions come out, they come out for one reason only. The attitude of people in that position is basically "i dont wanna deal with this, nerf it".

Understandable, but not all posts have that kind of intention.



People react negatively to any mention of the nerf bat in this game. Combine that with the general dislike of pvp in the game, its like a proverbial perfect storm in terms of generating negative reactions.


again very understandable, but this feels like an attempt to justify some of the comments being made, which are still unwarranted and unnecessary.

[Pape_27]

Understandable, but not all posts have that kind of intention.



again very understandable, but this feels like an attempt to justify some of the comments being made, which are still unwarranted and unnecessary.

No, not a justification. In no way am I trying to justify the actions of party a or party b.

Just getting to the root cause of the why's and how's.

-

[Gkar]

while that comment is a bit abrasive, I agree with it. just don't back up negative comments with unrelated reasoning:

/not signed because I hate pvp
/not signed because pvp should die
/not signed because no dev time should be spent on pvp
/not signed because I hate all the general chat caused by the lobster
/not signed and OP should stop whining

none of those comments have anything beneficial to add to a thread otther than to degenerate it into personal attacks.

Actually they do add something beneficial, information to devs on support level. Devs have in the past said they need to hear from both sides, as long as you don't start getting personal. All those lines except the last are approriate, the last one is deserving of neg rep or reporting.

[norman_quickfinger]

The thing is when ever the discussion of pvp comes up there will always be an argument. It's like discussing politics or religion it ends up being one huge argument. There has never been any posting by a Dev about expanding it. Correct me if I'm wrong(link to post) but the Devs have never even posted comments about pvp. The "pvp" that was put in the game was done as a time waster. DDO was never about pvp it's about pve. But as long as there are posts about pvp there will always be an argument going. Sad but true.

[protokon]

Actually they do add something beneficial, information to devs on support level. Devs have in the past said they need to hear from both sides, as long as you don't start getting personal. All those lines except the last are approriate, the last one is deserving of neg rep or reporting.

they are all inappropriate because they make comments that are not relevant to the discussion.

if someone opens a topic asking for X spell to be removed, stating any of those comments above is flaming and trolling - as stated by the moderators. The closest one to being reasonable is not wanting dev time wasted on modifying it.

[fluffybunnywilson]

they are all inappropriate because they make comments that are not relevant to the discussion.

The fact that you don't appreciate them or approve of them doesn't mean they're not relevant.

If someone says that they think a proposed highway should be two lanes and someone else thinks a highway should be four lanes, is it somehow off topic or irrelevant for someone else to say that they don't believe the highway should be built at all?


if someone opens a topic asking for X spell to be removed, stating any of those comments above is flaming and trolling - as stated by the moderators. The closest one to being reasonable is not wanting dev time wasted on modifying it.

The last of those comments could reasonably be taken as flaming or trolling. If the moderators decide that they don't want such comments, that's their business, but the fact that you or even Turbine declares something to be a troll doesn't make it one.

They can ban or censor someone for any reason of their choice - it's their forum, after all. But saying that any of those statements other than the last is a troll or a flame is wrong, no matter who says it.

[Elaril]

The fact that you don't appreciate them or approve of them doesn't mean they're not relevant.

If someone says that they think a proposed highway should be two lanes and someone else thinks a highway should be four lanes, is it somehow off topic or irrelevant for someone else to say that they don't believe the highway should be built at all?



The problem is the highway is already there. It is harassment, IMHO, to go into multiple PVP threads talking about improving the experience and talk about removing PVP from the game. I don't understand why people feel that their opinion is so important that they have to state it multiple times, in multiple threads, and even start threads on it. If you don't like something (not necessarily you, you fbunny) then you should just stop trolling people who do.

Plenty of people who PVP are paying subscribers and many have been here for a long time. There may be no DDO without a chunk of the PVP playerbase, but some can't see the forest for the trees. As I've said before, I personally don't PVP very often at all, but I am disgusted with the way some posters have started a crusade against it. Plenty of people have fun in the pits and who am I, or anyone else for that matter, to even consider taking that away from them.

[protokon]

The problem is the highway is already there. It is harassment, IMHO, to go into multiple PVP threads talking about improving the experience and talk about removing PVP from the game. I don't understand why people feel that their opinion is so important that they have to state it multiple times, in multiple threads, and even start threads on it. If you don't like something (not necessarily you, you fbunny) then you should just stop trolling people who do.

Plenty of people who PVP are paying subscribers and many have been here for a long time. There may be no DDO without a chunk of the PVP playerbase, but some can't see the forest for the trees. As I've said before, I personally don't PVP very often at all, but I am disgusted with the way some posters have started a crusade against it. Plenty of people have fun in the pits and who am I, or anyone else for that matter, to even consider taking that away from them.

exactly my thoughts, very well said elaril.

[heyytoi]

the Problem Is The Highway Is Already There. It Is Harassment, Imho, To Go Into Multiple Pvp Threads Talking About Improving The Experience And Talk About Removing Pvp From The Game. I Don't Understand Why People Feel That Their Opinion Is So Important That They Have To State It Multiple Times, In Multiple Threads, And Even Start Threads On It. If You Don't Like Something (not Necessarily You, You Fbunny) Then You Should Just Stop Trolling People Who Do.

Plenty Of People Who Pvp Are Paying Subscribers And Many Have Been Here For A Long Time. There May Be No Ddo Without A Chunk Of The Pvp Playerbase, But Some Can't See The Forest For The Trees. As I've Said Before, I Personally Don't Pvp Very Often At All, But I Am Disgusted With The Way Some Posters Have Started A Crusade Against It. Plenty Of People Have Fun In The Pits And Who Am I, Or Anyone Else For That Matter, To Even Consider Taking That Away From Them.

+1

[Kazasu]

Let us say that I made a thread about how wizards may be limited in one way or another. Let us say I request that they have some option added to them or that they have something changed. Now, let us say someone walks in and says, "I do not like wizards." How does this statement add to the discussion? Would you not take this as something which is irrelevant and unneeded? If this happened enough within the wizard subforum, would you not consider it harassment?

[Gkar]

they are all inappropriate because they make comments that are not relevant to the discussion.

if someone opens a topic asking for X spell to be removed, stating any of those comments above is flaming and trolling - as stated by the moderators. The closest one to being reasonable is not wanting dev time wasted on modifying it.

I've seen devs state the opposite. Feel free to link if you have such a comment, otherwise I have to assume you are just making it up.

[protokon]

I've seen devs state the opposite. Feel free to link if you have such a comment, otherwise I have to assume you are just making it up.

sure, here you go:


This thread has gone on long enough. Players should be allowed to discuss suggestions to improve PvP in this section of the forums, as long as they are following the forum guidelines. Players should not be replying with off-topic statements, including statements that are nothing more than essentially "I don't like PvP." Personal attacks and the like are also not allowed, of course.

the cube's comment after closing a thread, and of course cordovan's comment after closing another thread:


Please respect the PvP forums, if your only contribution to PvP threads is that you do not like PvP in DDO, or to harass those who do utilize this game option, you should not be posting in these threads. Please allow our players who want to discuss PvP in DDO to have a place to do so.

I think both of those quotes are very straightforward.

[Quarterling]

The problem is the highway is already there. It is harassment, IMHO, to go into multiple PVP threads talking about improving the experience and talk about removing PVP from the game. I don't understand why people feel that their opinion is so important that they have to state it multiple times, in multiple threads, and even start threads on it. If you don't like something (not necessarily you, you fbunny) then you should just stop trolling people who do.

Plenty of people who PVP are paying subscribers and many have been here for a long time. There may be no DDO without a chunk of the PVP playerbase, but some can't see the forest for the trees. As I've said before, I personally don't PVP very often at all, but I am disgusted with the way some posters have started a crusade against it. Plenty of people have fun in the pits and who am I, or anyone else for that matter, to even consider taking that away from them.

Yes this, +1 to you for putting this up.

I admit that screwing around in the brawling pit is fun (disclaimer: personal opinion - et cetera) to me, but it makes up a very small of my playtime; 10 minutes per week or so sounds about right. Would I care if Turbine made additions to PvP? No, but I may check it out more often. Would I care if Turbine got rid of PvP? No, and people who came here for the PvP alone would probably go find a different game (which leaves me to wonder why they came to DDO in the first place).

It's Turbine's game, they do what they want. Of course their decisions will have various impacts on everybody, but I'm pretty sure that Turbine understands that the majority of the playerbase wants more PvE and not PvP. Besides, the ones who are playing DDO mainly for PvP are probably little kids who can't afford WoW, and why would Turbine support kids who offer no money to Turbine's pockets in return?

[Drakos]

This has my support.

People opposed to PvP should simply ignore the PvP forums. For those unable to do so it should be against forum rules to post anti-PvP comments as it inhibits the right of others to post and impacts their enjoyment of the game.

Or, to quote Tolero, "While participating on the Community Sites, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community." Those posting anti-PvP messages in the PvP section clearly violate this standard.
No they don't. The sword cuts both ways, the opinions of the anti-pvp people should be respected just as much as this pro-pvp. If the thread in question is requesting that developer time be spent on pvp, then those in oposition should be able to express their opinion.

[Bodic]

Just note you will receive neg rep for any and all comstructive posts in pvp forms.

These are expert trolls they read neg rep and bash anythign you may say that is constructive.

on an other note DDO PvP is as dumb as it gets. Whom ever crits first wins.

[Drakos]

Not in the PvP forum you don't. And not over and over and over and over... that's considered harassment.

This has been addressed several times by the moderators - every time one of these threads pops up.

You won't win this argument, so you may as well just let PvP players have their ONE thread and let it go.
It's no more harrassment for up to post our oposition to it over anr over than it is to keep posting for it.

These are forums to discuss the game. All participants in these forums have the rights to post their opinions on the subject mater of the forum thread. Saying that "if you don't agree with a thread you shouldn't be allowed to post in it" is the worst kind of censorship, and will not give Turbin what they look to the threads for in the first place. They use these forums to help determine where their development time is best spent. If all they ever see is positive feedback on ideas then they would only be getting part of the data.

BTW, I most certainly DO have the right to post my decenting opinion in PvP threads, and I will continue to. Only the Mods can dictate what people can post and where they can post it. The mod responce here even states that we can as long as we stay on topic.

[Drakos]

Stating why a particular change is bad is perfectly fine, and is needed for debate.

Stating I don't like pvp, and here's why, and therefore this shouldn't be changed however, isn't.

There's starting to be a plethora of locked threads because people think the second statement is OK, because it's the pvp forum.
The problem is that we see any effort placed towards PvP as "bad for the game". So that is the reason against doing a PvP related change.

[Drakos]

in what i have seen its usaully the other way around (im not trying to say all pvp are nice little angels that post calmly etc lol) sometimes we see a thread about pvp start out nice and invariably some anti pvp come along making baiting/flamey/trollish/off-topic comments (the pvp then respond in kind) to try and get the thread closed, again im not sayin all anti pvp do this

and so this is why i signed this as it seem this community cannot have a mature discussion on this subject without it going downhill eventually so clearly some form of moderation is required in these threads as well as clear warnings to each side
This behaviour is not indicative of the PvP / no-PvP threads. This is in almost every thread on these forums no matter what the topic. It isn't a trait limited to anti-pvp people, it is just a trait of forum annonimity.

[protokon]

This behaviour is not indicative of the PvP / no-PvP threads. This is in almost every thread on these forums no matter what the topic. It isn't a trait limited to anti-pvp people, it is just a trait of forum annonimity.

Regardless of how you feel about pvp, posting a comment about the removal of it in a thread not discussing whether or not it should be removed is an off-topic, irrelevant comment.

you don't see people spamming the arcane forums on every wizard post saying "wizards suck, they need to be removed from the game". "dont play wizards, play sorcs they are better". "I would pay money to see wizards removed from the game".

Cordovan himself already stated posting those kinds of comments are considered off-topic and deemed them inappropriate, as per the quote I re-posted above.

[Drakos]

It is quite clear that the PVP THREAD is devoted soley for the furthuring of PVP in ddo, it is not to discriminate against it simply because you dislike it, and feel it should be removed. If you wish to voice your ANTI PVP opinion i recommend you do it in General discussion, not in this thread.
No the PvP threads are for discussion of PvP in DDO. I actually think that both Pro and Con threads belong there. That is why the set the boards up sectioned, to allow ALL threads concerning a subject to be grouped together.

[Drakos]

while that comment is a bit abrasive, I agree with it. just don't back up negative comments with unrelated reasoning:

/not signed because I hate pvp
/not signed because pvp should die
/not signed because no dev time should be spent on pvp
/not signed because I hate all the general chat caused by the lobster
/not signed and OP should stop whining

none of those comments have anything beneficial to add to a thread otther than to degenerate it into personal attacks.
I disagree! The one I highlighted is a valid opinion and adds to the thread by showing the devs that not everyone wants time spent on the topic.

I agree that the others are disruptive at best, and against forum policy at worst.

[protokon]

I disagree! The one I highlighted is a valid opinion and adds to the thread by showing the devs that not everyone wants time spent on the topic.

I agree that the others are disruptive at best, and against forum policy at worst.

They are all disruptive and unrelated reasonings for discussing changes. Yes, you are correct it is a valid opinion; but still an opinion irrelevant to the topic of discussion.

another example:

divine forums: user 1 makes a post about the new favored soul PRE needs to be adjusted, because it is too powerful. user 2 makes a comment that he disagrees, and it is not too powerful. user 3 makes a comment stating it should be left alone, because development time should be spent on a new cleric PRE.

valid opinion? yes, but still an off-topic comment.

[Auran82]

I think the reason so many PvP threads get attention from people who don't like PvP is because alot of them start with something like "X spell is too good in PvP" and people are scared that someone is going to change said spell to suit PvP and break it in the rest of the game.

Just look at how long it took for power words, alot of the symbols and anything with a HD limit to be changed, I'm pretty sure alot of this (especially the power words) was because they would be too powerful in PvP if they were not capped at a Player HP level.

I have nothing against PvP (I find it stupid for the most part in this game because it's no-where near balanced, but thats me) and to be honest I still have no clue why they even put it in the game, like alot of things added in the early days, it really feels like a bit of an afterthought and has just never had a second pass over.

[Drakos]

Regardless of how you feel about pvp, posting a comment about the removal of it in a thread not discussing whether or not it should be removed is an off-topic, irrelevant comment.
But in the same thread posting, "/not signed because PvP is not the basis for this game so I don't feel any dev time should be put toward it", would be fine. It would be a valid opinion related to the topic of Devs making any changes to PvP including that in the OP.

[Drakos]

They are all disruptive and unrelated reasonings for discussing changes. Yes, you are correct it is a valid opinion; but still an opinion irrelevant to the topic of discussion.
No because the topic at hand would involve Dev time, and the opinion is that said dev time is beter spent elsewhere.


another example:

divine forums: user 1 makes a post about the new favored soul PRE needs to be adjusted, because it is too powerful. user 2 makes a comment that he disagrees, and it is not too powerful. user 3 makes a comment stating it should be left alone, because development time should be spent on a new cleric PRE.

valid opinion? yes, but still an off-topic comment.
I disagree, user 3 is stating their opinion of where they feel the dev time is beter spent. It relates directly to the suggestion of spending dev time on the topic.

[protokon]

No because the topic at hand would involve Dev time, and the opinion is that said dev time is beter spent elsewhere.


I disagree, user 3 is stating their opinion of where they feel the dev time is beter spent. It relates directly to the suggestion of spending dev time on the topic.

pvp is part of the game, like it or not. major changes are constantly made to the game that affect both sides of the game (if you want to divide it up that way) PVE and PVP. major changes were made recently to PVE that unbalanced PVP in a way that made it unfun for some of those who enjoy spending time in it. There is no point in argueing whether or not dev time should be spent on making minor changes that would greatly reduce the unbalanced-ness of pvp, because ultimately the minute changes being asked for are nothing more than a grain of salt in a salt shaker; some of these changes would literally take less time than 'pulling the plug' on pvp altogether.

the semantics on whether or not anti-pvp comments are valid in topics trying to discuss balancing are still unrelated to the discussion.

[protokon]

I think the reason so many PvP threads get attention from people who don't like PvP is because alot of them start with something like "X spell is too good in PvP" and people are scared that someone is going to change said spell to suit PvP and break it in the rest of the game.


I agree with the point you are trying to make, but the main problem is making any change to the game, no matter how small or minute, will almost guarantee new bugs or break something else; it's an on-going process that cannot be avoided, and is part of every update to fix as many as possible.

most threads started seem to make an effort to state they intend the changes be made strictly in the pit and not affect PVE balancing in any way.

[bendover]

Umm why? That's like posting a build on the build forums asking for critism and then getting all bent out of shape when someone provides feedback that hurts your feelings.

These forums are already heavily moderated as is, and everyone has an extent of freedom of speech here.

[Dandonk]

I agree with the point you are trying to make, but the main problem is making any change to the game, no matter how small or minute, will almost guarantee new bugs or break something else; it's an on-going process that cannot be avoided, and is part of every update to fix as many as possible.

Yes...


most threads started seem to make an effort to state they intend the changes be made strictly in the pit and not affect PVE balancing in any way.

... but the first part is part of why I don't want PvP-based changes: First, you use dev time on something I personally find irrelevant. Then you change something that is more or less bound to bug something else - likely in PvE.

So yes, I'm very sceptical of PvP based changes, given Turbine's record of bug-"fixing".

[phum]

/signed

[stoerm]

I don't do PvP, but I think a lot of the negative posts in PvP threads are rude and juvenile. It's OK to post your opinion but it looks to me like every utterance of "pvp" gets a storm of hate. Imagine if every mention of sorcs would result in an avalanche of posts saying Turbine should not spend time on sorcs.

If you think Turbine doesn't know what's a good investment of time I don't think you give Turbine enough credit. I'm sure they know how to prioritize developer time.



Likewise, Turbine's best interests are served by looking at the community as a whole, and determining what the majority of paying customers want to see happen. Note: Paying Customers =/= Forumites. These numbers are independent of one another.

...

Free Players, and I mean *purely* Free Players, never a dime spent on the game, should not count. Why? Because they aren't the financial backing for this game being what it is. That's like a restaurant tailoring it's food tastes based upon the Bums who live in the alley behind the restaurant.

I agree (partially), but please note people who have never paid a dime on the game cannot post in the pvp forum (http://www.ddo.com/vip), so paying customers and forumites are not completely independent of each other. Note also that f2p players help seed the game worlds with players and contribute with forum discussion fodder. Without noobs there would be less drama and you wouldn't feel as good about your uber builds. :P

I personally think the loud anti-PvP crowd is a small minority of forum-dwelling intensive players and the vast majority of players (paying or otherwise) have a live-and-let-live attitude.

[Chai]

I dont seer any proof there. What I do see is a very one sided insinuation that the "harassing posts" are all coming from people who dont like PVP, when in fact, all posts from those threads that need to be removed are where one person tells another person they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about, and hinges their entire arguement on an assumption that the other side lacks knowledge of the subject. Do your homework on this and trust me, you will not see such a one sided story.

Be careful what you wish for. Harassment is a hugely interpretable thing and not set in stone. If I ask someone to stop doing something and they continue, its harassment. I count quite a few the number of times this has happened in PVP threads over the past few days, and its not nearly as one sided as insinuated here. Favoring censorship by asking for posts which do not agree with your stance to be removed is going to turn you all into a bunch of forum cops, with every little rules lawyer-esque technicality reported, and every thread monitored simply because a bunch of grown ups with internet anonymity cant figure out how to communicate without having to insult eachother repeatedly, simply because they disagree.

I do not support this censorship, because it will make this community less fun to be a part of.

[Eistander]

I dont seer any proof there. What I do see is a very one sided insinuation that the "harassing posts" are all coming from people who dont like PVP, when in fact, all posts from those threads that need to be removed are where one person tells another person they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about, and hinges their entire arguement on an assumption that the other side lacks knowledge of the subject. Do your homework on this and trust me, you will not see such a one sided story.

Be careful what you wish for. Harassment is a hugely interpretable thing and not set in stone. If I ask someone to stop doing something and they continue, its harassment. I count quite a few the number of times this has happened in PVP threads over the past few days, and its not nearly as one sided as insinuated here. Favoring censorship by asking for posts which do not agree with your stance to be removed is going to turn you all into a bunch of forum cops, with every little rules lawyer-esque technicality reported, and every thread monitored simply because a bunch of grown ups with internet anonymity cant figure out how to communicate without having to insult eachother repeatedly, simply because they disagree.

I do not support this censorship, because it will make this community less fun to be a part of.

Finally chiming in here, as this is hitting the nail on the head; the post by Cordovan seems to have been taken out of context (real surprise there) to such an extent that it seems, that proponents of PvP want their voices heard and anyone who remotely disagrees to be silenced, as it will supposedly become inevitable that whoever is participating in the discussion will make mention about either how PvP is a waste of time (an opinion, I might add) or that developer time is better spent elsewhere (again, an opinion), the person who disagrees with the poster either "Cannot win in PvP and cries about it" (note; an attack) or even "Is utterly clueless about the subject because they don't engage in the activity" (can be opinion, albeit a harsh one at best).

Since I have seen the inception of PvP into DDO, I will admit I tried it a couple times, didn't care for it so I have never dropped down since (talking about the Brawling Pits). Now I don't care what happens there, seeing as how I also understand the game mechanics well enough to know that nothing is really balanced when it comes to PvP. I get that. Others, not so much (note: This is strictly opinion, and very much on topic). The devs have shown that there is a measure of balancing possible when spells are used against players, which should aid the whole need for balance in that brawling pit. But to the extent that balancing would need to occur, if you think about it, you might end up playing a different game altogether once it would be all said and done, even then there will still be complaints about the balance not being right (granted that this was done in an innocuous way, where there was no strain on PvE development, it didn't impact the main game, blah blah blah).

TL;DR: I'm just going to leave this where it is now, seeing as how I will prolly end up reported for fleshing out a (mostly) unbiased viewpoint on the stand of PvP, which doesn't agree with total censorship of any remotely derogatory opinion that does not support the OPs viewpoint. This, in turn is wrong to push on a discussion board, whereas it is also wrong to spew the same lines against as well; make them think a little.. flesh it out beyond "/not signed, waste of time" and THEN copy/past that bad boy wherever its needed/wanted. A little forethought can go a long way, especially in both "anti" and "pro" PvP.

[Hendrik]

I dont seer any proof there. What I do see is a very one sided insinuation that the "harassing posts" are all coming from people who dont like PVP, when in fact, all posts from those threads that need to be removed are where one person tells another person they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about, and hinges their entire arguement on an assumption that the other side lacks knowledge of the subject. Do your homework on this and trust me, you will not see such a one sided story.

Be careful what you wish for. Harassment is a hugely interpretable thing and not set in stone. If I ask someone to stop doing something and they continue, its harassment. I count quite a few the number of times this has happened in PVP threads over the past few days, and its not nearly as one sided as insinuated here. Favoring censorship by asking for posts which do not agree with your stance to be removed is going to turn you all into a bunch of forum cops, with every little rules lawyer-esque technicality reported, and every thread monitored simply because a bunch of grown ups with internet anonymity cant figure out how to communicate without having to insult eachother repeatedly, simply because they disagree.

I do not support this censorship, because it will make this community less fun to be a part of.

Thank you Chai for making that point.

Using a blanket 'harassment' against those that disagree with you is sad, weak, and discredits any attempts to make a point.

[TrinityTurtle]

If you think Turbine doesn't know what's a good investment of time I don't think you give Turbine enough credit. I'm sure they know how to prioritize developer time.

Well, in a very real way, without checking the pulse of the players in a forum like this, they actually don't. Companies can't read customers mind, it's a guessing game that you THINK product/service A will sell well and hope that you are right. You're not always right.

I think having a forum setup like this in MMO's isn't just about giving us a place to communicate, but an easy and relatively inexpensive way to get us to 'think out loud' for them so they can monitor what we're thinking about, complaining about, and what we want for our future game and to keep giving them money. So everyone SHOULD post their opinions, on both sides of the issues. Just because Turbine doesn't post in every thread does not mean they are not reading them.

And as far as the original post, it seems like there is a disconnect between the term harrasment and disagreement these days, especially as he specified anti-pvp comments and not anti-poster. Harassing posts are those attacking the poster, not the content. In any conversation and debate, the topic being attacked is NOT harrasment, it's the natural course of it. Not everyone agrees with everyone else. But if the POSTER is attacked, that is what strays into harrasment and should be shut down immediately. The forum is not 'just a game' despite being about a game, it's a group of real world of people talking and agreeing and disagreeing on topics, and in the real world no one ever finds everyone who will only always agree with them or not discuss a topic at all.

[fluffybunnywilson]

One last thought - will the people who despise all of those "turn off PvP" comments also be reporting people for posts that claim someone's disagreement with a proposal can't be valid because "if you really played PvP, then you would agree with me"?

Telling people that they aren't qualified to participate in a discussion of PvP is directly attacking "the rights of others to participate in the community" and I see it happen very frequently in PvP discussions.

If saying that you believe PvP should be discarded is harassment, then telling people that they aren't qualified to have an opinion *CERTAINLY* is.

[MartinusWyllt]

I do not hate PvP.

I choose not to do it because:

There is no point to it.
There is no reward for it.
This game is not designed for it.

How can PvP hurt?

Griefing...leading to reporting leading to more tickets, I'm guessing, obviously don't have access to the ticket queue to say this for a fact...judging by how, sorry, stupid people get in general chat about PvP-related happenings I'm guessing the /tells are faster and more furious.

If I see someone trying to drive their new Prius through a field where they get stuck and then listen to them complain that the Prius sucks as an off-road vehicle I might suggest to them that they get a different car, one that is designed to off-road.

It doesn't matter that the Prius was free. If you attempt to operate it in a manner that is not in accordance with its design then you will not have a good driving experience.

There are other fantasy games designed around PvP and they're quite good. Yes you'll have to subscribe to them and level in them, but if you spend a lot of your DDO game time in a pit and find questing an inconvenience then I respectfully recommend you reconsider your choice of games.

PvP for the heck of it when you don't feel like doing anything else, or want to test something out, whatever, activities that represent a fraction of your total experience then play on, of course. This is what I think the implementation of PvP in this game was meant for...a sideshow, not the main attraction.

[Chai]

One last thought - will the people who despise all of those "turn off PvP" comments also be reporting people for posts that claim someone's disagreement with a proposal can't be valid because "if you really played PvP, then you would agree with me"?

Telling people that they aren't qualified to participate in a discussion of PvP is directly attacking "the rights of others to participate in the community" and I see it happen very frequently in PvP discussions.

If saying that you believe PvP should be discarded is harassment, then telling people that they aren't qualified to have an opinion *CERTAINLY* is.

^^This^^

I agree.

I think we will find that strutting around quoting the rules is all fun and games, until those rules no longer back our side of the debate, and there are an equal number of "harassing posts" removed or moderated that we were in favor of keeping around. At this point we will then clearly see how much less fun it is to participate in a community where we cant really say what we feel and have to euphamize it down to the point where its vanilla enough to not fit the description of "harassment®" - which is very interpretable to say the least. Do we really want to become a bunch of rules lawyers weeding through eachothers post looking for things that can be interpreted as harassment, or do we just want to be able to state our opinions, without having to argue that the opposition doesnt know what they are talking about, argue about what is and what is not on topic, etc.

As I said before, be careful what we wish for. Censorship will not help the company gain insight on how their customers feel about any topic they speak about. It will also make it much less fun to participate in the community for those posters whose posts are deleted for not fitting the vanilla description of what is acceptable. Its all fun and games until its your post being deleted because something you posted is somehow interpretable as "offensive" by someone who has an opposing opinion. We may think we want this, until we see that it is not the one sided animal we deemed it to be.

[protokon]

Finally chiming in here, as this is hitting the nail on the head; the post by Cordovan seems to have been taken out of context (real surprise there) to such an extent that it seems, that proponents of PvP want their voices heard and anyone who remotely disagrees to be silenced, as it will supposedly become inevitable that whoever is participating in the discussion will make mention about either how PvP is a waste of time (an opinion, I might add) or that developer time is better spent elsewhere (again, an opinion), the person who disagrees with the poster either "Cannot win in PvP and cries about it" (note; an attack) or even "Is utterly clueless about the subject because they don't engage in the activity" (can be opinion, albeit a harsh one at best).


how is it taken out of context? he said, very straightforward and clear, posts that say nothing more than basically "i dont like pvp" are not welcome in posts discussing changes.

there is a nice thread opened discussing the removal of PVP. if it is so important to voice your opinion of how pvp hurts your gaming experience so badly, anyone is welcome to go /sign that thread.

flooding every thread trying to discuss any kind of balancing with personal opinions of how PVP does not belong in the game serves no purpose other than to flame, troll and ultimately harass anyone who wants to talk about it.

you can't blame people for defending themselves when others take uninformed shots at them.

[protokon]

This is the attitude that makes many long term's and even those who came into this game due to a lack of pvp focus not want it.

They could put in a full bells and whistles system that has its own separate server but the moment people start pulling in the smack talk or coming to the forums to whine about such and such its gonna be a nightmare.

I pvp in other games just fine they were made for such things. PVP in ddo was added as an afterthought now to make it viable it would take a lot of work. Unlike some of the others I just dont see a place in the game for it but as long as it did not interrupt core game play pve I wouldn't balk at changes that brought in more money for the game.

But players like you that attitude and assumptions make it very easy to attack pvp, statements like this come off as ignorance and its sad this is what represents the pro pvp argument and makes it very easy for the anti pvp people to keep strong.

please keep the personal attacks out of this thread, if you feel someone violates the guidelines there is a nice little report button - I would like to keep this discussion open.

[Kalari]

No its fine I get it honestly if he read my post he see that I would not be against non invasive ways to boost pvp and revenue but its alright its because I said that person's post represents the pro pvp people and sadly it does. For every one person they have that has a legitimate argument for pvp they have a handful of those.

If he wants to combat the pvp issues I feel he really needs to start in his own camp but its okay think im going to leave this thread alone stick to my own. Less hatred there.

[Kominalito]

/not signed.

leave the personal attacks out, and there is no reason people cant voice their opinion on the game that they allot time for.

[protokon]

No its fine I get it honestly if he read my post he see that I would not be against non invasive ways to boost pvp and revenue but its alright its because I said that person's post represents the pro pvp people and sadly it does. For every one person they have that has a legitimate argument for pvp they have a handful of those.

If he wants to combat the pvp issues I feel he really needs to start in his own camp but its okay think im going to leave this thread alone stick to my own. Less hatred there.

You had a good point to make, just no need to point the finger at someone while making it. that was all I was trying to say. I don't disagree at all that the comment was immature, unhelpful and irrelevant to our discussion - but that is going off-topic to call someone else out.

people seem determined to beat me over the head with the 'clueless' comments from another thread. what I was asking for was the removal of all harassing posts, not anti-pvp posts only.

this is not a conspiracy post to 'snuff out anti-pvp conformists' or whatever you want to call them. its been stated several times that the harassment posts go both ways.

[Chai]

You had a good point to make, just no need to point the finger at someone while making it. that was all I was trying to say. I don't disagree at all that the comment was immature, unhelpful and irrelevant to our discussion - but that is going off-topic to call someone else out.

people seem determined to beat me over the head with the 'clueless' comments from another thread. what I was asking for was the removal of all harassing posts, not anti-pvp posts only.

this is not a conspiracy post to 'snuff out anti-pvp conformists' or whatever you want to call them. its been stated several times that the harassment posts go both ways.

Its good that you are clarifying that now, because that is not how the OP reads.


or make a sticky that says any anti-pvp comments in a legitimate post discussing it is considered trolling, since closing a few threads wasn't clear enough.

Yeap.

I think pointing out the 'clueless' comments is necessary, because it is rock solid evidence that this is definately a two way street.

I still do not support censorship for reasons stated above, and I hope in the future PVP feedback threads dont boil down to people who disagree being told they are not qualified to state their opinion due to being clueless and not understand that which they are not supporting. 29 incidence in a few threads over a few days - yes its necessary to bring up, to define whats happening so it can be made sure it doesnt continue to happen. That way requests to have posts removed will be denied, due to the posts in question not violating forum guidelines in the first place. Those conversations and disagreements can definately be had in such a non personal manner.


/not signed.

leave the personal attacks out, and there is no reason people cant voice their opinion on the game that they allot time for.

Yeap, exactly.

[protokon]

Its good that you are clarifying that now, because that is not how the OP reads.

The discussion has taken a slight change of topics for the better, and updating the OP is a good idea chai.