Remove PvP completely or make those that want it pay for it.

[Trillea]

PvP has no place in a Dungeons and Dragons MMO. DnD is about cooperation and teamwork to accomplish goals, not 1-upmanship to increase someone's epeen. It did not have it at start (one of the big draws that brought me to this game in the first place) and should not have been added later. It never has fit well ingame in its current implementation except as a test bed for new abilities. So here are my suggestions (in order of my preference)

1) Completely remove PVP in all forms and recode the training dummy to be able to be completely customized (hp, saves, fortification, AC, whatever) and have all abilities usable on it with extended combat feedback if wanted.

2) Leave PvP as-is, in its current form, with no further amount of developer time ever spent on it at all. Money and time already spent is gone (wasted IMO) and no reason throwing good money after bad.

3) This is my least favorite option, but lets the PvPers put their money where their mouth is. Make all aspects of PvP store-only: brawls, challenges, whatever. Any and all development costs (Dev salaries, whatever) for PvP can only go up to an amount that is capped by whatever money is brought in by PvP sales.

I am tired of seeing thread after thread about PvP when it has no place in a DnD MMO. Please remove it completely.

[unknownturok]

/signed

[madmaxhunter]

option 1 for sure... well, wait a minute, if they get rid of pee vee pee, the pre-teeners will prolly start joining our pugs! ugh. No, leave it ;)

[unknownturok]

option 1 for sure... well, wait a minute, if they get rid of pee vee pee, the pre-teeners will prolly start joining our pugs! ugh. No, leave it ;)

yup so option 2 then

[Trillea]

yup so option 2 then

Devs, if you choose option 2 please make it publicly known.

[jwdaniels]

/not signed

I don't like PvP, nor do I care about it at all, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't keep other people playing and having fun.

I don't want the devs to spend any resources on PvP per se, and trying to balance the game for PvP is not needed as it will mess with PvE which is at the heart of D&D (and thus DDO) but getting rid of it entirely seems unnecessary.

I would like them to give the Wayward Lobster it's own chat channel though.

[SilkofDrasnia]

/signed for option one as i too believe pvp should never have been put into this game!

i must add i dont much like option 2 tho since it is part of the game it should be supported, i just happen to believe it should never have been added

[khaldan]

/not signed

I don't like PvP, nor do I care about it at all, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't keep other people playing and having fun.

I don't want the devs to spend any resources on PvP per se, and trying to balance the game for PvP is not needed as it will mess with PvE which is at the heart of D&D (and thus DDO) but getting rid of it entirely seems unnecessary.

I would like them to give the Wayward Lobster it's own chat channel though.

QFT

Just because I don't like something doesn't mean it's automatically bad and should be killed with fire.

[eonfreon]

I am tired of seeing thread after thread about PvP when it has no place in a DnD MMO. Please remove it completely.

Then don't go to the PVP forums. There is seldom any threads started up about PVP outside of this particular forum. It's where it belongs.

It's not like any aspect of the game has ever been changed for the benefit of PVP anyway, so what does it matter if PVPers want a spell or ability disabled in their Pit Brawls?

Just stay out of the PVP forums and you won't have to read anything about PVP.

[Memnir]

I think the Devs went for Option 2 a long time ago.

Myself - I just wish they'd move it outta the taverns and into their own separate locales. That way the minority of people who enjoy it can continue doing so, and those who are annoyed or bothered by it no longer have to be subjected to the sounds or effects of it going on nearby.

[Trillea]

Then don't go to the PVP forums. There is seldom any threads started up about PVP outside of this particular forum. It's where it belongs.

It's not like any aspect of the game has ever been changed for the benefit of PVP anyway, so what does it matter if PVPers want a spell or ability disabled in their Pit Brawls?

Just stay out of the PVP forums and you won't have to read anything about PVP.

If there was a way to make them not show up on the main page recent threads, I would. But as it is the hairs on the back my neck raise a little every time I see a new PvP whining thread.

[SilkofDrasnia]

If there was a way to make them not show up on the main page recent threads, I would. But as it is the hairs on the back my neck raise a little every time I see a new PvP whining thread.

ah i can understand that, have you considered just not clicking on the thread to start with and simply ignoring it.

my mom use to say," if u cant say something nice say nothing at all" tho ill admit im not perfect n so ...lolz ;)

[unknownturok]

i hate when i am in harbor and seeing people say stuff in chat because of pvp

[Therigar]

I am tired of seeing thread after thread about PvP when it has no place in a DnD MMO. Please remove it completely.

While I do not use PvP for anything, having jumped in with my son on occassion just so he could kill me (or not), I really don't see how it affects anyone or anything.

If you don't like reading posts about it then don't read them. Seems pretty simple to me.

Maybe you get the forums streamed to you in some fashion where it fills your inbox with every post on every topic. I can't afford a mailbox that size. So I limit what I get to those topics that are of potential interest to me.

I only open the forum areas that appeal to me. I only read the posts that seem of interest. I only reply to the ones that catch my eye.

And, honestly, I don't even know if I can get every post streamed to me on a phone or in email or some other way. I only visit the forums online where I'm in control of where I surf.

PvP isn't my thing. But it doesn't hurt me either. And regarding PvP posts, I just ignore most of them.

Maybe you should do the same.

[khaldan]

If there was a way to make them not show up on the main page recent threads, I would. But as it is the hairs on the back my neck raise a little every time I see a new PvP whining thread.

So, because a thread pops up on the subject every so often, it deserves to go away forever?

That's a bit narrow minded.

[Trillea]

So, because a thread pops up on the subject every so often, it deserves to go away forever?

That's a bit narrow minded.

The threads are a symptom of the greater problem - PvP does not belong in DDO. I believe this 100% from head to toe.

[jwdaniels]

The threads are a symptom of the greater problem - PvP does not belong in DDO. I believe this 100% from head to toe.

Are you going to tell me that you have never had any PvP in a tabletop game of Dungeons and Dragons ever?

[khaldan]

The threads are a symptom of the greater problem - PvP does not belong in DDO. I believe this 100% from head to toe.

If DDO were about to have PvP put in, this would be a valid argument.

But since PvP is part of DDO, in order to get rid of it and use up developer time in doing so, there has to be a reason showing that the game will be the better for the time used.

"It doesn't belong" doesn't really work when it's already in place.

If you can show that PvP is making the game worse by causing changes in PvE, or that the act of PvP causes problems for the game, then I'd be completely behind you, but until then, I don't want to see Dev time used getting rid of it.

[Trillea]

Are you going to tell me that you have never had any PvP in a tabletop game of Dungeons and Dragons ever?

Only in cases like Dominate Person or similar effects.

[Chai]

/signed.

Either option 1 or option 3.

Option 2 is not working.

I dont like the plethora of nerf suggestions simply because theres a new feature for PVE and the PVPers cant seem to figure out how to beat it other than building for it to stomp everyone else who also have not figured out how to beat it yet.

Telling us to not click into their thread is the same mentality as us talling them to go play a real PVP game, which was designed around PVP from the ground up since day 1. Dont click into their suggestion threads? Dont click into a PVE game for PVP enjoyment. Neither of these solves the issue, but making this type of comparison definately gets the point accross.

I am down for option 3 because its realistic in a business sense. The expected metric for a business to make these types of decisions by is money. If people want PVP features they should provide the resources the company would require to put those features into place. Otherwise, option 1 is the most valid. Those people who then make the arguement that many of these changes are just super easy to make would find out how easy (costly) they really are to make. Having software coding experience, I can say that those types of changes in 5 year old software that was not coded for this in the first place are definately not as easy as some state. You want to convince me otherwise, convince me in the language of business, dollarsese.

[timewalker]

21 years of PnP and nope outside of a NPC charm/Dominate effect never heard of PVP in PnP. PVP is completely alien to DnD.

[jwdaniels]

Only in cases like Dominate Person or similar effects.

Seriously? Not once did you ever say "Hmm, I wonder if my character could beat yours. Let's have a hypothetical fight and see what happens?" I'm not talking about turning traitor in the middle of a dungeon. Just a friendly combat between two characters for bragging rights...

[Trillea]

If DDO were about to have PvP put in, this would be a valid argument.

But since PvP is part of DDO, in order to get rid of it and use up developer time in doing so, there has to be a reason showing that the game will be the better for the time used.

"It doesn't belong" doesn't really work when it's already in place.

If you can show that PvP is making the game worse by causing changes in PvE, or that the act of PvP causes problems for the game, then I'd be completely behind you, but until then, I don't want to see Dev time used getting rid of it.

When DDO started, it had no PvP. It should never have been added and should be removed. If the Devs came out and said that no further changes will ever be made to PvP, I could accept that (it was even one of my suggestions) but it would have to be publicly known.

[Uska]

While I am against any dev time spent on pvp they should just leave what we have alone it affects those of us against pvp not at all and it gives the fans something if they want more they can ask for it just as we can speak against addng anything.

[Elaril]

If there was a way to make them not show up on the main page recent threads, I would. But as it is the hairs on the back my neck raise a little every time I see a new PvP whining thread.

What about a whining about PVP thread? I very seldom PVP, but I know a good many people who do. They are not mutants or trash talking pre teens, nor are they free to play. They are paying subscribers who choose to spend their downtime in the brawl pits. What is wrong with that? Other than the fact that you don't like it? And why would any devotion of dev time to a part of the game that a decent sized chunk of the population enjoys constitute a waste of resources? As long as the devs understand that pvp and pve are seperate animals and shouldn't be balanced against each other, I'm ok with it.

[Trillea]

Seriously? Not once did you ever say "Hmm, I wonder if my character could beat yours. Let's have a hypothetical fight and see what happens?" I'm not talking about turning traitor in the middle of a dungeon. Just a friendly combat between two characters for bragging rights...

Not that I can remember, and definitely not that I participated in.

[Uska]

While I do not use PvP for anything, having jumped in with my son on occassion just so he could kill me (or not), I really don't see how it affects anyone or anything.

If you don't like reading posts about it then don't read them. Seems pretty simple to me.

Maybe you get the forums streamed to you in some fashion where it fills your inbox with every post on every topic. I can't afford a mailbox that size. So I limit what I get to those topics that are of potential interest to me.

I only open the forum areas that appeal to me. I only read the posts that seem of interest. I only reply to the ones that catch my eye.

And, honestly, I don't even know if I can get every post streamed to me on a phone or in email or some other way. I only visit the forums online where I'm in control of where I surf.

PvP isn't my thing. But it doesn't hurt me either. And regarding PvP posts, I just ignore most of them.

Maybe you should do the same.


Not going to ignore them if noone posts agaisnt them then it could be taken noone oposed the idea.

[Uska]

Are you going to tell me that you have never had any PvP in a tabletop game of Dungeons and Dragons ever?

yup we dotn allow it

[khaldan]

When DDO started, it had no PvP. It should never have been added and should be removed. If the Devs came out and said that no further changes will ever be made to PvP, I could accept that (it was even one of my suggestions) but it would have to be publicly known.

I know, I was around when it got put in, along with the non working leaderboards.

My point is that if you really want option 1, then you'd have to show what it's doing that's hurting the game

And just out of curiosity, why would there have to be a public declaration of 'we will never change pvp'? The last change to it must have been years ago, with the only things that happen in new updates are 'XXX spell doesn't work in brawiling areas', which take maybe 5 seconds of work.

[Trillea]

Not going to ignore them if noone posts agaisnt them then it could be taken noone oposed the idea.

/qft

[der_kluge]

I don't really care that PvP is there - honestly, I think it's nice that we have a place to test out specific aspects of the combat system in a controlled environment. That's kind of handy, I think.

But I would like to see the "challenge" system removed.

[Hendrik]

I think the Devs went for Option 2 a long time ago.

Myself - I just wish they'd move it outta the taverns and into their own separate locales. That way the minority of people who enjoy it can continue doing so, and those who are annoyed or bothered by it no longer have to be subjected to the sounds or effects of it going on nearby.

Once again Mem speaks the truth.

TBH, the ONLY PvP I 'like' in DDO is our Arena's. The open pit PvP has brought nothing but strife, complaints, harassment, and the worse the MMO community has to offer to our beloved game.

[bladepro]

/signed option 1 would be my first choice, with option 2 being a grudging second.

[Trillea]

yup we dotn allow it

You need to bring some of that beer over here to Atlanta and join our gaming group.. (BTW love the reference..)

[Chai]

Are you going to tell me that you have never had any PvP in a tabletop game of Dungeons and Dragons ever?

Yeap, and I have also witnessed the epic debates players have with PVP oriented DMs about what abilities should be and should not be allowed, since the mid 80s or so. Its no different than here in DDO, another incarnation of D&D. P&P also isnt balanced for PVP, and the minute someone gets effortlessly killed, we see all the same arguements laid out on the table, including the list of things people should be allowed to do or not do, what is cheap -vs- what is legit.

Something about being careful what we wish for comes to mind. Whats the over under on forumites consistantly asking for PVP features until they get them, and then the overwhelming majority not being happy with it when it does happen? Daddy needs a new pair of shoes.

[jwdaniels]

So if you don't have hypothetical battles between characters, what do you do when half the party is seperated from the others/ dead/ waiting for the idiot that decided to sled down the dungeon stairs on a shield to die?

[Therigar]

Telling us to not click into their thread is the same mentality as us talling them to go play a real PVP game, which was designed around PVP from the ground up since day 1. Dont click into their suggestion threads? Dont click into a PVE game for PVP enjoyment. Neither of these solves the issue, but making this type of comparison definately gets the point accross.

Let's pretend that there are different types of PvP players.

One type only plays DDO in order to have the best PvP character.

One type only PvPs in order to have the best DDO character.

One type falls somewhere else in between these two.

Does that seem like a fair division of PvP player types to you? It does to me.

The first type of player ends up in my group and their gear, spell selection, etc doesn't seem to fit my notion of what they should have. When I ask they answer that they are mainly playing DDO for the PvP and they only quest in order to gain levels and the gear to make them good in PvP.

The second type of player ends up in my group and what? Well, if the gear, spell selection, etc is what I'm expecting then I never notice. If it is different I ask and I get their answer: they know that the gear I'm expecting is what people expect but they have found out through testing that there is a better set up.

The third type of player ends up in my group and what again? I probably never notice and if I do their answer to why stuff is different is simple: its the best I have.

Now, how did this hurt my group? The only one of these that can really hurt me is the first one and that's really only true if they have something totally off the wall.

The second type might be right or they might be wrong but, since their main purpose is to play DDO they'll fix the character if it has flaws. So, the likelihood is that anything they are doing different is actually going to improve things.

The third type isn't any different than any other undergeared player. I can snobbishly avoid them or, if the quest really demands only top geared characters I can politely explain that this time they just can't come along. But, for the most part DDO is so mind-numbingly easy that having them in the group won't matter.

But wait. Doesn't that apply to the first type of player as well?

So the bottom line is this. While there are some that feel PvP doesn't belong in DDO it really isn't doing anything to affect them. So it is time for them to put on their big boy pants and grow up.

If you don't like PvP then don't PvP. But respect those others who do like it and those who have used it to improve the way we go about things by experimentation and testing. It turns out they've actually helped you even though you are unaware of it.

[Therigar]

So if you don't have hypothetical battles between characters, what do you do when half the party is seperated from the others/ dead/ waiting for the idiot that decided to sled down the dungeon stairs on a shield to die?

They shop for stronger glasses. They need to find something to do with their hands....

[Khumbaaba]

I only use pvp to test builds and gear set-ups with friends.

It should stay for that reason alone.

I agree that people going in there because they need to prove something aren't fun, but you run into those pugging anyways.

[Uska]

So if you don't have hypothetical battles between characters, what do you do when half the party is seperated from the others/ dead/ waiting for the idiot that decided to sled down the dungeon stairs on a shield to die?

We dont have that kind of idiot in our group either or we wont for very long

[jwdaniels]

We dont have that kind of idiot in our group either or we wont for very long

It was an example... How do you pass downtime when a bunch of people are sitting there with dice and character sheets and time to kill?

I've been playing tabletop for over 25 years and every edition of the game - there is always some sort of downtime and, regardless of the age of the players, someone eventually suggests a combat to see who would win between two different characters.

[khaldan]

We dont have that kind of idiot in our group either or we wont for very long

So they just sit around doing nothing while they wait for the rest of the party to do what they need to do with the DM? It doesn't really apply if they died, as they could be rolling up a new character, but for the separated scenarios it still applies.

Note: I have not played DnD in pen and paper form, so anything I say on that can and probably should be taken with a grain of salt, but waiting for however long it takes for the group to get back together seems like a bit of a wait, and I could see a random fight between two people, if it didn't affect the game at all.

[Uska]

It was an example... How do you pass downtime when a bunch of people are sitting there with dice and character sheets and time to kill?

I've been playing tabletop for over 25 years and every edition of the game - there is always some sort of downtime and, regardless of the age of the players, someone eventually suggests a combat to see who would win between two different characters.

we usually get up get a drink or something or play a hand of magic we use to fire up the linked playstations and play linked doom now we are just a likely to fire up rockband or something we dont usually have a problem finding something to do if there is downtime for a part of the party and I have been playing for over 35 years.

[Uska]

So they just sit around doing nothing while they wait for the rest of the party to do what they need to do with the DM? It doesn't really apply if they died, as they could be rolling up a new character, but for the separated scenarios it still applies.

Note: I have not played DnD in pen and paper form, so anything I say on that can and probably should be taken with a grain of salt, but waiting for however long it takes for the group to get back together seems like a bit of a wait, and I could see a random fight between two people, if it didn't affect the game at all.

nah we just find something to do we dont often split the party as it often has bad results when it happens.

[khaldan]

we usually get up get a drink or something or play a hand of magic we use to fire up the linked playstations and play linked doom now we are just a likely to fire up rockband or something we dont usually have a problem finding something to do if there is downtime for a part of the party and I have been playing for over 35 years.

Fair enough. Not everyone has a bunch of game systems lying nearby, but I do see your point.

[Uska]

Fair enough. Not everyone has a bunch of game systems lying nearby, but I do see your point.

Actually we all have to much stuff lying around it distracts people sometimes espceially new ones I have way to much stuff in my game room, games toys larp weapons real weapons should likely hide some if it to take away some of the temptations.

[Chai]

If you don't like PvP then don't PvP. But respect those others who do like it and those who have used it to improve the way we go about things by experimentation and testing. It turns out they've actually helped you even though you are unaware of it.

Let them put their money where their mouth is. This is the metric by which a business will make this determination anyhow.

PVPers have been helped ALOT more by those who dont use it as well, by paying to support this game where time was put in to enhance a feature most dont use. Want to convince Turbine more PVP features are good for the game? Become fluent in dollarsese.

[jwdaniels]

Let them put their money where their mouth is. This is the metric by which a business will make this determination anyhow.

PVPers have been helped ALOT more by those who dont use it as well, by paying to support this game where time was put in to enhance a feature most dont use. Want to convince Turbine more PVP features are good for the game? Become fluent in dollarsese.

I'm tired of people playing wizards. I only play melees or divine casters - I think everyone that wants to play arcanes should have to pay extra. All those upgrades/balances/nerfs to arcane spells, and the new sorceror PrEs took time to implement that could have been better used to improve the classes I like.

How is my argument different from yours?

[SaisMatters]

The threads are a symptom of the greater problem - PvP does not belong in DDO. I believe this 100% from head to toe.

/signed
If I wanted to PVP I'd play WOW

[Cyr]

Not much of a pvp fan myself, but as long as no changes were ever made for 'balance' purposes for pvp I wouldn't mind the following...

A challenge option for some quests where two 3 man teams that effected each other like they were enemy mobs competed to complete the most quest objectives/optionals and were rewarded with better xp/loot if they won. Of course nothing drastic here on loot/xp, but a little something.

This could be fun in quests like Gwayln's, BoB, or Framework for example.

[Hendrik]

/signed
If I wanted to PVP I'd play WOW

I would not go that far for PvP, I do have some dignity and self respect.

[Sarisa]

I personally do not like PvP. I do not want to see a lot of developer effort be spent on it, as I've witnessed far too many PvE based games that were ruined by it. Inevitably, PvE/PvM play gets altered beyond recognition or worse completely destroyed by PvP balancing.

Note that games that are PvP based from the start are fine, the above statement is for PvE based games who later try to balance PvP in order to draw a larger crowd.

The d20 system is inherently unbalanced and not designed with PvP in mind. It can work, just it WILL end up being a test of "cheesy" skills, and caster supremacy. The Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards trope is at the heart of the DnD class system.

One possible way that PvP COULD work in DDO is by having a completely different ruleset for PvP as opposed to PvE. This is, however, a huge amount of work for very limited interest. It also completely invalidates any sort of testing of builds, saves, and the like that can be done with PvP now.

Even though I personally hate PvP, there are a few people who do like it, and who do participate responsibly. Therefore, I can't recommend removing it completely. I just would like to see PvP balancing or changes NEVER impact PvE play.

The only other issue I have with PvP as it currently exists is, as mentioned above, the open area issues. This is especially pertinent with the Lobster. Before I got my new computer, there were only three places in the game where I had massive graphical lag (lag specifically the result of graphical complexity, this doesn't count loot generation lag like with the Tor dragons and in the Shroud). VoD when the second round of Orthons popped up and someone tossed an Ice Storm; Spartan/Ball method DQ's when she was at the group; and in the Lobster when I was trying to get or turn in one of the quests in there. Even my new computer, which is only 2 months old, and has a high end video card, will occasionally get some graphical lag when going into the lobster. The public nature of PvP in the pit does adversely impact those players around it.

In addition, because it's part of the harbour chat channel, any arguments, disagreements, and trash talking that starts in the Pit ends up being seen by large numbers of new players. Almost all level 2-4 players will NOT care about PvP oriented arguments. Seeing these types of arguments and trash talk almost constantly when they are trying to do Butcher's Path is not putting a good impression of the game to those who are actually new to the game. The game needs new players, especially those who are willing to learn and adapt.

If the PvP pits were their own instance, with their own chat channels, so that PvP oriented lag and chat do not impact the rest of the world, I would have absolutely no problem with PvP as it currently is.

[TheDearLeader]

It was an example... How do you pass downtime when a bunch of people are sitting there with dice and character sheets and time to kill?

I've been playing tabletop for over 25 years and every edition of the game - there is always some sort of downtime and, regardless of the age of the players, someone eventually suggests a combat to see who would win between two different characters.

My groups spend that downtime playing games like Halo and Super Smash Brothers - games specifically geared for PvP. :)

[Postumus]

I'm tired of people playing wizards. I only play melees or divine casters - I think everyone that wants to play arcanes should have to pay extra. All those upgrades/balances/nerfs to arcane spells, and the new sorceror PrEs took time to implement that could have been better used to improve the classes I like.

How is my argument different from yours?

Exactly JW.

I feel the same way about Barbarians. Why do I have to pay for other people to play the barbarian class?

It's not fair. The class should be removed from DDO - it isn't even a real class by 1E rules. At the very least people who play barbarians should have to pay extra.

Maybe I should start a thread in the melee forums about how Barbarians are stupid and should be removed from the game? If I don't, then the devs might think I actually support the barbarian class and spend more resources on it instead of something I want.

[TheDearLeader]

I'm tired of people playing wizards. I only play melees or divine casters - I think everyone that wants to play arcanes should have to pay extra. All those upgrades/balances/nerfs to arcane spells, and the new sorceror PrEs took time to implement that could have been better used to improve the classes I like.

How is my argument different from yours?


Exactly JW.

I feel the same way about Barbarians. Why do I have to pay for other people to play the barbarian class?

It's not fair. The class should be removed from DDO - it isn't even a real class by 1E rules. At the very least people who play barbarians should have to pay extra.

Maybe I should start a thread in the melee forums about how Barbarians are stupid and should be removed from the game? If I don't, then the devs might think I actually support the barbarian class and spend more resourced on it instead of something I want.

Difference is, the majority of the paying player base would not support you two. Whereas I do believe the majority of the paying player base, if given a worldwide vote, would be consent to not a single hour of Developer time being put into PvP.

We're all entitled to our opinions. But what moves Turbine is money.

[ddoplayer064]

/signed
prefer option 1
pvp has absolutely no business in DDO.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Let them put their money where their mouth is. This is the metric by which a business will make this determination anyhow.

PVPers have been helped ALOT more by those who dont use it as well, by paying to support this game where time was put in to enhance a feature most dont use. Want to convince Turbine more PVP features are good for the game? Become fluent in dollarsese.

now i have to ask you where your studies showing that pvp players havent played any kinda of pve and dont have subs or are not premium players?

its part of the problem this post ive just quoted where theres a lack of "respect" in this community.

i understand what u mean and can even respect what you are trying to say but the manner in which you say its is clearly meant to be insulting towards pvpers

[BruceTheHoon]

PvP has no place in a Dungeons and Dragons MMO.
Think what you will, but PC vs NPC duel is a PvP match. Or is DM not a person?


1) Completely remove PVP in all forms and recode the training dummy to be able to be completely customized (hp, saves, fortification, AC, whatever) and have all abilities usable on it with extended combat feedback if wanted.

2) Leave PvP as-is, in its current form, with no further amount of developer time ever spent on it at all. Money and time already spent is gone (wasted IMO) and no reason throwing good money after bad.

3) This is my least favorite option, but lets the PvPers put their money where their mouth is. Make all aspects of PvP store-only: brawls, challenges, whatever. Any and all development costs (Dev salaries, whatever) for PvP can only go up to an amount that is capped by whatever money is brought in by PvP sales.

I am tired of seeing thread after thread about PvP when it has no place in a DnD MMO. Please remove it completely.
The dummy idea is good, but it really doesn't have anything to do with PvP.

You might be revolted by the PvP, but some other people obviously are not. Some people really like it, which means, that PvP brings peple to the game and people bring money.
It might be a miniscule number of players, but it's still a positive net gain (I really can't se anybody leaving DDO just because of this obscure and marginalized form of PvP that we have). Removing PvP would be bad for them and bad for them and people leaving because of it would be bad for the game. It would also mean that the devs would have to spend time doing really absolutely nothing for the game.
Making it a buyable content would be an option, but I doubt, that much peple (if any) would buy PvP content in the state that it is. To make PvP a viable selling product, some initial investment would have to be made. Judging by the state of PvP A LOT of initial invstment would have to be made. Perhaps the devs would now even consider taking changes that would hurt PvE but would benefit PvP to make this happen and we definitely wouldn't want this, would we (I certainly wouldn't)? To make things worse, people would actually feel that they are entitled to PvP balancing changes because they've bought it. Imagine the amount of PvP threads after that!
If you don't like PvP, my suggestion would be just to stay clear of the PvP forums. Crusades are so 11th century.


That's a bit narrow minded.
That's a bit of an understatement.



I dont like the plethora of nerf suggestions simply because theres a new feature for PVE and the PVPers cant seem to figure out how to beat it other than building for it to stomp everyone else who also have not figured out how to beat it yet.

Telling us to not click into their thread is the same mentality as us talling them to go play a real PVP game, which was designed around PVP from the ground up since day 1. Dont click into their suggestion threads? Dont click into a PVE game for PVP enjoyment. Neither of these solves the issue, but making this type of comparison definately gets the point accross.
Have the devs ever implementeda change - that benefited PvP but hurt PvE - with the sole intention of improving PvP?

On a side note,
I still don't get it, why anyone would come to the PvP section of the game's forums and start telling people that this game is not a PvP game. it has a PvP option, therefore it is a PvP game. The scope of the PvP element is irrelevant.

Being offended by the PvP forums/threads, because you feel like it shouldn't be here, is like being offended by strawberries, because you are alergic to them. nobody can help anyone else with that.

EDIT:
I also haven't yet seen any argument supporting many claims, that PvP has no part in DDO.

[TheDearLeader]

now i have to ask you where your studies showing that pvp players havent played any kinda of pve and dont have subs or are not premium players?

its part of the problem this post ive just quoted where theres a lack of "respect" in this community.

i understand what u mean and can even respect what you are trying to say but the manner in which you say its is clearly meant to be insulting towards pvpers

I'm thinking you're being a little too soft-skinned. When there's thousands of people online on a Server, and only twenty of them are in the Lobster, I think we can safely assume that PvE dominates the majority of a player's time.

Chai's not trying to insult - just point out that a majority is paying for a content feature that a minority uses.

[flynnjsw]

Think what you will, but PC vs NPC duel is a PvP match. Or is DM not a person?




The DM is a person, just as the PC's are people. However, characters are not fighting the DM.

[BruceTheHoon]

The DM is a person, just as the PC's are people. However, characters are not fighting the DM.
They are in case of a PC vs NPC duel.
Both the player and the DM use characters created by the PnP rules and they both play them using the PnP rules.
The only difference between PC fighting a PC would be if DM were to fake rolls, but le't assume that hes not a jerk.

[flynnjsw]

They are in case of a PC vs NPC duel.
Both the player and the DM use characters created by the PnP rules and they both play them using the PnP rules.
The only difference between PC fighting a PC would be if DM were to fake rolls, but le't assume that hes not a jerk.

NPC's and monsters are the E in PvE.

[TheDearLeader]

NPC's and monsters are the E in PvE.

MMM yes this.

[Gkar]

PvP has no place in a Dungeons and Dragons MMO. DnD is about cooperation and teamwork to accomplish goals, not 1-upmanship to increase someone's epeen. It did not have it at start (one of the big draws that brought me to this game in the first place) and should not have been added later. It never has fit well ingame in its current implementation except as a test bed for new abilities. So here are my suggestions (in order of my preference)

1) Completely remove PVP in all forms and recode the training dummy to be able to be completely customized (hp, saves, fortification, AC, whatever) and have all abilities usable on it with extended combat feedback if wanted.

2) Leave PvP as-is, in its current form, with no further amount of developer time ever spent on it at all. Money and time already spent is gone (wasted IMO) and no reason throwing good money after bad.

3) This is my least favorite option, but lets the PvPers put their money where their mouth is. Make all aspects of PvP store-only: brawls, challenges, whatever. Any and all development costs (Dev salaries, whatever) for PvP can only go up to an amount that is capped by whatever money is brought in by PvP sales.

I am tired of seeing thread after thread about PvP when it has no place in a DnD MMO. Please remove it completely.

I'd vote for 2 or 3. 1 is more trouble than its worth

[BruceTheHoon]

NPC's and monsters are the E in PvE.

I was illustrating a principle not arguing semantics.

In case of a NPC fighting a PC, the only difference between PvP and PvE is that one person controling one charcater (again, both characters = C are created and played using the same rules) happens to occasionally play more characters than the other and has a special title.

I will derail with this no further.

[Rellos]

See for me, I have done pvp in Pnp. We used to run a level 40 campaign every year where we would all make lvl 40 toons (epic level handbook) and another DMese person would make a small wilderness area where we would hunt and kill each other. Was a lot of fun.

To say pvp has no place is a strech. If players want it, it has a place. Though I do not believe it should have any impact on the game mechanics.

One suggestion would be to have wilderness area's like gianthold or vale for PvP. then the pvp's would have their own area and it wouldn't just be (as much) of a gankfest.

Just my 2 copper (which will inevitably get me trolled)

[Chai]

I'm tired of people playing wizards. I only play melees or divine casters - I think everyone that wants to play arcanes should have to pay extra. All those upgrades/balances/nerfs to arcane spells, and the new sorceror PrEs took time to implement that could have been better used to improve the classes I like.

How is my argument different from yours?

Its not. And I pay 10 dollars a month, in part, to play a wizard. Thats included in my VIP package. All classes and races.

There are also "pay to unlock" classes and races in DDO. Want to play a FvS, monk, or a warforged? Cha-ching.

Again, dollarsese. Want to make a convincing arguement that will get your suggestions implemented. This is the language you will need to speak to do so. It doesnt matter which side of the PVP debate youre on. If I wanted to convince Turbine that PVP isnt worth it, I would have to deliver a convincing arguement in fluent dollarsese to make that suggestion heard.

[countfitz]

/signed

[Habreno]

/not signed.

[VladimereTheImpaler]

Honestly, removing something that effects the game very little or at all would just be silly. Pvp is a fun past time inbetween raids or quests. You gain nothing from pvping. The are MANY things that dont belong in dnd but you find in ddo. Yet I dont see you demanding that they be removed. Please in the future consider the people who actually enjoy pvp.

[CrimReaper]

I like Option #4...the one where we dont tell other people how to enjoy their gaming experience...

[Backley]

/signed.
Approve of the ordering as well. 1, or 2, or 3. In that order.

[SilkofDrasnia]

I'm thinking you're being a little too soft-skinned. When there's thousands of people online on a Server, and only twenty of them are in the Lobster, I think we can safely assume that PvE dominates the majority of a player's time.

Chai's not trying to insult - just point out that a majority is paying for a content feature that a minority uses.

yes i get that and that why i can respect his opinion about it BUT what im trying to show him is that this part here (i also agree turbine in it for the money its a company after all not charity) ,

"PVPers have been helped ALOT more by those who dont use it as well, by paying to support this game where time was put in to enhance a feature most dont use"

not evryone will see this in context and will be insulted, as it can be viewed as hes saying pvper dont pve at all and thus dont or never have paid to play this game. and thus i responded as i did thinking he would understand what i was trying to point out.

as for having thin skin perhaps but i look at it like this its takes ALOT MORE toughness to have an open mind and to be sensitive to other peoples feelings and needs than to be closeminded and insensitive.

[Aegohl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0la5DBtOVNI

[ProdigalGuru]

I don't really care that PvP is there - honestly, I think it's nice that we have a place to test out specific aspects of the combat system in a controlled environment. That's kind of handy, I think.

But I would like to see the "challenge" system removed.

I strongly disagree, and feel that the only appropriate place to PvP is in a challenge arena.

Instanced PvP reduces server lag.

Public area PvP increases server lag.

There are many, more appropriate places to test out aspects of the combat system, namely quests.

You want to try out your new spell on a weak opponent? Cerulean Hills are full of them.

PvP pits are a chaotic mess, and should be either removed or turned into private instances so as to not affect the enjoyment of the game by the other 99% of the population.

[ProdigalGuru]

I like Option #4...the one where we dont tell other people how to enjoy their gaming experience...

How about you go enjoy it somewhere it doesn't affect my ability to enjoy the game?

If PvP took place mostly in private instances, I would be just fine with it.

The fact that it makes navigating the Harbor and Market instances a nightmare affects my gaming experience.

[ProdigalGuru]

Honestly, removing something that effects the game very little or at all would just be silly. Pvp is a fun past time inbetween raids or quests. You gain nothing from pvping. The are MANY things that dont belong in dnd but you find in ddo. Yet I dont see you demanding that they be removed. Please in the future consider the people who actually enjoy pvp.

Please refer to my previous post.

[mournbladereigns]

Once again Mem speaks the truth.

TBH, the ONLY PvP I 'like' in DDO is our Arena's. The open pit PvP has brought nothing but strife, complaints, harassment, and the worse the MMO community has to offer to our beloved game.

Yep, Out of sight, out of mind would help PvP become less of an "I Hate it, kill it with fire." because it spills over into gen chat in harbor, and noise/distraction on taverns. It becomes an annoyance.

They should move the PvP Pits to the 'basement' of the Taverns, or a seperate location/instance. Then it wouldn't be on people's radar as much. The gen chat trash talking in harbor or wherever is especially annoying.

I wouldn't mind the idea of arena/ team pvP stuff. Like a defend the airship kind of capture the flag thing could be fun. But the brawling pits right now are just griefer pits to gank n00bz lol lol lol.

[Therigar]

Instanced PvP reduces server lag.

Public area PvP increases server lag.

With respect to lag, if this is demonstrably true then it justifies restrictions on PvP or even elimination of PvP.

However, I think it is just a boogy man -- stories told to frighten small children.

The way to prove the boogy man is real is to show proof he exists. So, what evidence exists that PvP increases server lag?

A thread about that would be nice instead of hiding it in a reply to this or some other thread. Makes it easy to find and shifts the debate from opinions about the value of PvP to cold facts about its effect on gameplay.

But, as I say, I don't think this is actually a demonstrable situation or that server lag is affected by PvP to any greater degree than it is by general player density or public area events like egg hunts or succubai chases.

[norman_quickfinger]

Are you going to tell me that you have never had any PvP in a tabletop game of Dungeons and Dragons ever?

I can honestly say no to that. And I played D&D from it's creation to 3.5

[Therigar]

If PvP took place mostly in private instances, I would be just fine with it.

The fact that it makes navigating the Harbor and Market instances a nightmare affects my gaming experience.

I find this to be vastly overstated. I navigate both areas and never have issues. In fact, except when I'm in Meridia, I habitually return to the marketplace prior to logging off any character or quitting the game. And I never have navigation issues.

Changing PvP to private instances won't eliminate the chatter on the general chat channel. All of the public channels are so full of pointless and meaningless chatter now that I have them all turned off for most of my characters. I leave them on only on my haggle bard because he does all my shopping and selling -- which makes using Trade and General chat a sometimes useful tool.

If you don't like the chatter then disable the channel. What do you use it for anyway? To find groups? That's why there's a grouping tool. To talk with friends? That's why there are private channels.

No, instead of eliminating PvP how about eliminating general chat? It makes just about as much sense. I can cry about how annoying general chat is -- or I can turn it off.

Same with PvP. I can whine about how bad it is, or I can not participate.

Neither affects my ability to play the game. If it affects my enjoyment I simply turn it off -- problem solved.

[norman_quickfinger]

See for me, I have done pvp in Pnp. We used to run a level 40 campaign every year where we would all make lvl 40 toons (epic level handbook) and another DMese person would make a small wilderness area where we would hunt and kill each other. Was a lot of fun.

To say pvp has no place is a strech. If players want it, it has a place. Though I do not believe it should have any impact on the game mechanics.

One suggestion would be to have wilderness area's like gianthold or vale for PvP. then the pvp's would have their own area and it wouldn't just be (as much) of a gankfest.

Just my 2 copper (which will inevitably get me trolled)

Just one question. Did ya'll "balance" all the classes for it or did you use what you had to the best of your abilities.Because alot of the pvp threads i've seen are full of people wanting this and that nerf because someone used it pvp to kill them. We don't go to other game forums wanting them to remove pvp because the game was made to be a pvp mmo. DDO wasn't. It was put in here to waste time while waiting for a party to fill.

[Rellos]

Just one question. Did ya'll "balance" all the classes for it or did you use what you had to the best of your abilities.Because alot of the pvp threads i've seen are full of people wanting this and that nerf because someone used it pvp to kill them. We don't go to other game forums wanting them to remove pvp because the game was made to be a pvp mmo. DDO wasn't. It was put in here to waste time while waiting for a party to fill.

no, we used what we had the best we could. It really promoted outside the box thinking too.(since are are WAY more cheesy abilities and spells in PnP)

[Pape_27]

I'm tired of people playing wizards. I only play melees or divine casters - I think everyone that wants to play arcanes should have to pay extra. All those upgrades/balances/nerfs to arcane spells, and the new sorceror PrEs took time to implement that could have been better used to improve the classes I like.

How is my argument different from yours?


Its not. And I pay 10 dollars a month, in part, to play a wizard. Thats included in my VIP package. All classes and races.

There are also "pay to unlock" classes and races in DDO. Want to play a FvS, monk, or a warforged? Cha-ching.

Again, dollarsese. Want to make a convincing arguement that will get your suggestions implemented. This is the language you will need to speak to do so. It doesnt matter which side of the PVP debate youre on. If I wanted to convince Turbine that PVP isnt worth it, I would have to deliver a convincing arguement in fluent dollarsese to make that suggestion heard.

Actually, there is a large difference between the two.

The difference being that Wizards are a core class of the game, and people actually play the game in order to have access to such classes. Most people would be upset and would leave the game if the devs stopped advancing the character classes in the game. So the devs put time and effort into trying to balance out the growth of character classes, be they Arcane, Divine, Melee or Specialist classes. Most of the time, they err on the side of being too generous with abilities. Therefore, the never ending cycle of Additions and subsequent Nerfs to find a proper PvE balance is put into play. If they didn't do this, ultimately, having static character classes would result in the failure of the game.

Pvp on the other hand, was offered as a secondary entertainment to ddo, to provide a somewhat distraction from the real mission of the game, which is of course, PvE. PvP is not part of the game we all know as DnD, on which DDO is loosely based. It was added, quite frankly, as an after thought because someone at turbine said "Look at all the other fantasy mmo's they have PvP, so maybe we should add something". Since then? No real advancements to the PvP system have been made. Carrying that forward, if nothing else were done to bolster/upgrade/heighten the Pvp aspect of DDO, you think that would lead to its ultimate failure as a (somewhat) successful mmo?

We have already seen that it hasn't.

_

[FooWonk]

/signed, just get rid of it.

Don't mess with the training dummy (people who want to know the mechanics can do science rather than log parsing).

If it stays, I suggest it be open throughout the server, even in party. The only requirement is that the character has to be surnamed "Gankster".

[MartinusWyllt]

Are you going to tell me that you have never had any PvP in a tabletop game of Dungeons and Dragons ever?

Isn't this one of them there fancy "straw man" arguments?

Wouldn't a more appropriate framing of this question be something like:

"Are you going to tell me that you never dedicated significant amounts of tabletop gameplay to PvP?"

The answer to that, sir, is "Yes. I never dedicated significant amounts of my RPG time to PvP because passing lots of notes quickly becomes a PITA." I have, however, decimated unwary groups by ambushes when running Shadowrun...because ambushes are deadly and no amount of wired reflexes should save you from a well-placed bullet from the rooftop.

[nicnivyn]

I would like them to give the Wayward Lobster it's own chat channel though.

/signed

Leave PvP as it is but give each PvP area (tavern) its own channel so those of us who watch general/advice/trade won't have to deal with the spammage.

[Yajerman01]

/not signed

1. I enjoy DDO;
2. I enjoy PVP
3. I enjoy PVE
4. Turbine Instituted PVP therfore I pay for what Turbine has offered me to do.

I do not get alot of time to play; moreove,r I often find that while I am playing I am asked by family to assist in something, therefore, it is more respectible for me to walk away from a solo quest or pvp arena then leave people hanging in the middle of a quest.

PVP is a conveinance item for me and allows me the freedom to intermittently goof around with my favorite game. It has its flaws, but I have made it work for my time schedule. WHen I am bored with PVP or its going slow, I go Solo quests because the same theory applies, I can walk away (more or less) when family calls and I do not impede or jeoporadize another persons playtime.

I am all for expanding PVP or enhancing it; but to minimize it more would be IMHO a travesty.

Thank you for reading from a person whos played for almost 5 years.

[Chai]

Actually, there is a large difference between the two.

The difference being that Wizards are a core class of the game, and people actually play the game in order to have access to such classes. Most people would be upset and would leave the game if the devs stopped advancing the character classes in the game. So the devs put time and effort into trying to balance out the growth of character classes, be they Arcane, Divine, Melee or Specialist classes. Most of the time, they err on the side of being too generous with abilities. Therefore, the never ending cycle of Additions and subsequent Nerfs to find a proper PvE balance is put into play. If they didn't do this, ultimately, having static character classes would result in the failure of the game.

Pvp on the other hand, was offered as a secondary entertainment to ddo, to provide a somewhat distraction from the real mission of the game, which is of course, PvE. PvP is not part of the game we all know as DnD, on which DDO is loosely based. It was added, quite frankly, as an after thought because someone at turbine said "Look at all the other fantasy mmo's they have PvP, so maybe we should add something". Since then? No real advancements to the PvP system have been made. Carrying that forward, if nothing else were done to bolster/upgrade/heighten the Pvp aspect of DDO, you think that would lead to its ultimate failure as a (somewhat) successful mmo?

We have already seen that it hasn't.

_

I agree, because part of the draw to may of the players is that it was NOT designed with PVP in mind. I am of that opinion because I have the opinion that D&D has never been balanced for PVP. There are many games that succeed in part because of PVP but those games didnt start and play forward for 5 years without it then try to add it as a full feature of the game. They launched with PVP being just as much of a focus as PVE, or PVP was focused on more shortly thereafter.

I would accept however, that if people wanted to pay for its development so that there is no drain on current development resources to implement all these requested changes. It is my opinion that Turbine should not take away from the number of engineers working on PVE just to bolster PVP. I believe that content already flows in at a slow enough rate that many people who have done everything this game has to offer are sitting and waiting for new content. Even most people in support of PVP will agree with me on this. Thus, if they find that bolstering PVP would be a good financial move, then that investment needs to be made to that end and ADD engineers, so there is the same number or more working on PVE and additional personel working on PVP. The converse - subtracting from the PVE pool to add to PVP with no further investment (paid for in part by those who want PVP) then = that new content will be further delayed. Delayed content is already an issue and I dont want to see it become more of an issue.

...And there is no better metric to use to convince a for profit business, than $$$$. Want a bunch of new features centered around your playstyle? Show that the revenue potential is there. The PVE crowd has done this since the beginning of the game, as DDO was created as a PVE game and subscribed to as a PVE game by those who have supported it for five years now. What Turbine was marketing was attractive to those players, and that was a PVE game, which was not another one of the sammich clone MMOs.

[Clay]

"Stop spending dev time on anything that is frivolous and extraneous to my likes and desires. My likes are what is important and your likes be dammed."

Is my understanding of the OP correct?

Why not create and maintain a game that can entertain people of different interests at the same time? Is it really such a burden to you that some percentage of the paying population enjoys PvP? Have you ever tried PvP outside of the tavern brawls? You may be surprised what you could and could not enjoy if you reexamined your prejudices.

I know I was.

[Kalari]

I can honestly say I have never had pvp in a pen and paper session of mine, mostly my group were working together against hordes of mobs or trying to find a rare treasure or artifact. Little arguements may have cropped up but not full on fights because its pointless team work was always the heart of the game.

That being said this is an mmo a mmo that has opened its doors by going free to play to all sorts of new play styles. I look at it this way a year ago you couldnt have gotten me to even think about pvp seriously. But the game needs time sinks and more revenue cannot be a bad thing. If people are seriously willing to put their money where their mouths are, they can find a way to fix pvp issues and not have it affect our pve environment by keeping it completely optional (like events and the like) then balking just seems out of place.

Give them a way to enjoy it pay for it and keep it out of the mainstream I would love to see general chat clear of the ignorance of smack talk or whining by certain pvp legends as it is. I just think honestly if the developers are going to work on pvp there will be nothing us hold outs will be able to do about it save try to get ideas put in place that wont hurt our core play. Id rather come up with ideas for them to help those into it and bring money into the game without it bothering pve in whole then to keep trying to fight against it and have them bring in an invasive new layout. Trust me as someone who remembers ddo without a store and all the new changes we had no say in id rather be safe then sorry.

[Missing_Minds]

/signed

Leave PvP as it is but give each PvP area (tavern) its own channel so those of us who watch general/advice/trade won't have to deal with the spammage.

I can get behind that suggestion as well.

[protokon]

I can get behind that suggestion as well.

this is a huge misconception. I have only spent a few weeks down in the tavern, and most of the general chat nonsense is not caused by the lobster. In fact, the silly banter can be found in any f2p area of the game - korthos, the harbor, the marketplace, the various houses...

any time someone decided they had to say something to me while participating in the lobster, I recieved a tell, I have never once seen a comment in general chat referring to pvp.

If giving a separate general chat channel to the tavern gives you peace then I have nothing against it.

[Sarisa]

this is a huge misconception. I have only spent a few weeks down in the tavern, and most of the general chat nonsense is not caused by the lobster. In fact, the silly banter can be found in any f2p area of the game - korthos, the harbor, the marketplace, the various houses...

any time someone decided they had to say something to me while participating in the lobster, I recieved a tell, I have never once seen a comment in general chat referring to pvp.

If giving a separate general chat channel to the tavern gives you peace then I have nothing against it.

You haven't seen the harbour, in general, trade, and even advice, on Sarlona in the evenings. Maybe your server is just more polite about their PvP disputes.

[Yajerman01]

You haven't seen the harbour, in general, trade, and even advice, on Sarlona in the evenings. Maybe your server is just more polite about their PvP disputes.

Coming from Thelanis, maybe, maybe not - as for myself I just do not follow general chat to care enough what is transpiring, whether I am in PVP or not. If someone wants my attention they generally send a tell, and if they are nasty I just ignore it, and if they continue I just squelch them. Nothing personal, I just do not make time to feel griefed by others; moreover, I have never bothered with general chat as a whole because it is not part of my "gaming" experience - most often i see boring dribble or people pawning items or people lost.

Generall chat is usually overlapped by Guild chat or party chat anyway.

[AtomicMew]

This reminds me of certain discussions on certain Bioware romances. Not completely analogous, but I think the idea stands. Here's a quote from David Gaider which I think is quite poignant:

The person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least. And that's my opinion, expressed as politely as possible.

I don't PvP and probably never will. But some people enjoy it, and to say that PvP should just be just amputated seems quite selfish.

[Habreno]

This reminds me of certain discussions on certain Bioware romances. Not completely analogous, but I think the idea stands. Here's a quote from David Gaider which I think is quite poignant:

The person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least. And that's my opinion, expressed as politely as possible.

I don't PvP and probably never will. But some people enjoy it, and to say that PvP should just be just amputated seems quite selfish.

+1, well said.

[Postumus]

Again, dollarsese. Want to make a convincing arguement that will get your suggestions implemented. This is the language you will need to speak to do so. It doesnt matter which side of the PVP debate youre on. If I wanted to convince Turbine that PVP isnt worth it, I would have to deliver a convincing arguement in fluent dollarsese to make that suggestion heard.


If Turbine is like any other company, they are going to use actual DDO statistics regarding how much revenue PAYING players who use/participate in PvP activities contribute to the DDO pie, and not some hypothetical forum argument based on personal opinion.


Regardless of what traditional DDO players consider DDO to be, or how DDO should be defined, if Turbine decides that they can make more money catering to PvPers, then that is what they are going to do regardless of how many long term players threaten to quit or how many threads get posted in their forum.


Even though I don't play DDO for the PvP element, I think Turbine should try to expand its PvP market simply from a business perspective. It's short-sighted not to because it's a huge market. Kids grow up playing PvP games. They have more time and tend to spend more of their 'income' on video games. The 30-50 somethings who grew up playing PnP won't be around forever, and they certainly aren't a growing market.


I'll be surprised if more PvP type packages don't start coming out in the next couple of years.

[phum]

As Memnir said, the devs chose option 2 long ago.

I kinda disapprove of ppl labeling pvp a waste. I and probly many others see it as potential. I firmly believe DDO is reaching out to players without a pnp background and most of those have some of their best online gaming experiences in pvp. I'll never be convinced that a good pvp system could not be created in DDO and without good knowledge (I at least don't possess anything of the sort, just a vague idea) about their organizational structure the question of resources should not imo be even presented. May be I'm being a bit too naive and trusting about Turbine.. but the set of rules for pvp can be modified(they already exist) without creating any content and once the rules are proper the content is easier to make than pve content. I think they can do it if they choose to, but i do realize that would be a continuous work alongside pve development. Would it be difficult? Once the basis is good, no.

What i would like to see are quests that have pvp elements like optional(/forced wouldn't with DDO's solobility) duels(i miss those from my pnp), optional/forced pt vs pt in a raid, events etc, but i guess the rules and the playerbase arent ready for it..

The problem of how to modify the rules is something that every little answer to which generates quite a bit hate in these forums. I know it's because people do not differentiate between pve n pvp enough, but that differentiation really should be a given.

So, tldr: /not signed

[Postumus]

Pvp on the other hand, was offered as a secondary entertainment to ddo, to provide a somewhat distraction from the real mission of the game, which is of course, PvE. PvP is not part of the game we all know as DnD, on which DDO is loosely based. It was added, quite frankly, as an after thought because someone at turbine said "Look at all the other fantasy mmo's they have PvP, so maybe we should add something". Since then? No real advancements to the PvP system have been made. Carrying that forward, if nothing else were done to bolster/upgrade/heighten the Pvp aspect of DDO, you think that would lead to its ultimate failure as a (somewhat) successful mmo?

We have already seen that it hasn't.

_

F2P, according to Turbine, was a huge boon to DDO. But if they want to keep growing the customer base - especially internationally, they need to do more than just add more PvE content that they spend months developing and people burn through it in a week. Turbine needs to improve PvP content so the game is more multi-dimensional and appeals to a larger player base.


How that should be implemented is a good topic of discussion for PvP threads. Taking the position that PvP is anathema to DDO b/c it was never part of the original PnP game and therefore should be eliminated is sticking one's head in the sand.

[Postumus]

What i would like to see are quests that have pvp elements like optional(/forced wouldn't with DDO's solobility) duels(i miss those from my pnp), optional/forced pt vs pt in a raid, events etc, but i guess the rules and the playerbase arent ready for it..

So, tldr: /not signed

I have no doubt the DDO player base IS ready for what you describe. And there are a LOT more MMO players out there who might find that adds appeal to DDO.

These forums are another matter and probably don't represent the 'average' DDO customer since it went f2p.

[Chai]

How that should be implemented is a good topic of discussion for PvP threads. Taking the position that PvP is anathema to DDO b/c it was never part of the original PnP game and therefore should be eliminated is sticking one's head in the sand.

I disagree.

Saying it should be eliminated is a bit extreme, however, saying it has not been a focus of the game for 5 years so it will be a HUGE undertaking is not so extreme. I have seen the problems PVP games go through even when they were designed from the ground up to be PVP, both on the customer and company side, and cant even imagine what we would be dealing with here.

Thus the call for people to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak. The biggest convincing case one could make in favor of adding new features is to show the profit potential. Dollarsese is the language they will have to speak.

[SynalonEtuul]

You not liking PvP is both interesting and important

[Drakos]

/signed, for option two. I didn't sign for option one because removing it could also take dev time (unlikely much but still...) and I don't think any dev time should be used concerning PvP.

[protokon]

"Stop spending dev time on anything that is frivolous and extraneous to my likes and desires. My likes are what is important and your likes be dammed."

Is my understanding of the OP correct?

Why not create and maintain a game that can entertain people of different interests at the same time? Is it really such a burden to you that some percentage of the paying population enjoys PvP? Have you ever tried PvP outside of the tavern brawls? You may be surprised what you could and could not enjoy if you reexamined your prejudices.

I know I was.

could not have been said better.

[Postumus]

The biggest convincing case one could make in favor of adding new features is to show the profit potential.


DDO already has a f2p business model, so if they decide to target a player base that enjoys PvP, then requiring the potential customers to pay more in order to experience it doesn't really fit the f2p model. It's more likely they'd expand PvP content, then try to hook new players with the f2p PvP content.


The market is there. It's a portion of the market DDO has not historically catered to. To continue to expand player base DDO needs to appeal to more players unless Turbine has a suite of MMOs designed to appeal to different sub-markets - and that may be the direction they go.


Suggesting PvPers now pay for the privilege of continuing to play PvP isn't realistic, and the analogy another poster made regarding Wizards ("I don't like arcanes, so DDO should stop spending dev dollars on arcanes...") is a valid one. Your counter-argument has merit, but one could plug numerous examples into the "I don't like X, please eliminate X" argument and make just as strong (or as weak) a case as is being made here in the thread for eliminating PvP.


PvP could be a great addition to this game if implemented in a creative and interesting way.

[Postumus]

"Stop spending dev time on anything that is frivolous and extraneous to my likes and desires. My likes are what is important and your likes be dammed."

Is my understanding of the OP correct?

Why not create and maintain a game that can entertain people of different interests at the same time? Is it really such a burden to you that some percentage of the paying population enjoys PvP? Have you ever tried PvP outside of the tavern brawls? You may be surprised what you could and could not enjoy if you reexamined your prejudices.

I know I was.


Really well said.

[cdbd3rd]

Yep, Out of sight, out of mind would help PvP become less of an "I Hate it, kill it with fire." because it spills over into gen chat in harbor, and noise/distraction on taverns. It becomes an annoyance.

They should move the PvP Pits to the 'basement' of the Taverns, or a seperate location/instance. Then it wouldn't be on people's radar as much. The gen chat trash talking in harbor or wherever is especially annoying.

I wouldn't mind the idea of arena/ team pvP stuff. Like a defend the airship kind of capture the flag thing could be fun. But the brawling pits right now are just griefer pits to gank n00bz lol lol lol.


^^ There we go, that's about what I was gonna add to this, tho I tossed a few /props about on the way thru the first several pages. ;)

I support dev time spent moving the PvP pits and CHAT to their own zone.

:)

[NaturalHazard]

Only in cases like Dominate Person or similar effects.

sounds kinky :rolleyes:

[Velexia]

/signed because the classes are not and should not be balanced against each other for pvp.

[hityawithastick]

ddo Already Has A F2p Business Model, So If They Decide To Target A Player Base That Enjoys Pvp, Then Requiring The Potential Customers To Pay More In Order To Experience It Doesn't Really Fit The F2p Model. It's More Likely They'd Expand Pvp Content, Then Try To Hook New Players With The F2p Pvp Content.


The Market Is There. It's A Portion Of The Market Ddo Has Not Historically Catered To. To Continue To Expand Player Base Ddo Needs To Appeal To More Players unless Turbine Has A Suite Of Mmos Designed To Appeal To Different Sub-markets - And That May Be The Direction They Go.


Suggesting Pvpers Now Pay For The Privilege Of Continuing To Play Pvp Isn't Realistic, And The Analogy Another Poster Made Regarding Wizards ("i Don't Like Arcanes, So Ddo Should Stop Spending Dev Dollars On Arcanes...") Is A Valid One. Your Counter-argument Has Merit, But One Could Plug Numerous Examples Into The "i Don't Like X, Please Eliminate X" Argument And Make Just As Strong (or As Weak) A Case As Is Being Made Here In The Thread For Eliminating Pvp.


Pvp Could Be A Great Addition To This Game If Implemented In A Creative And Interesting Way.

Q
F
T

[Aurora1979]

/signed for option 3

been saying this for the last couple of weeks now.

It would be like it own stand alone thing. If you want it pay for it, same as everything else in the game.

Its win/win/win. PvPer get whatever developments they want run in its own zones by its own dev. PvEers get all their dev time devoted to what they enjoy about the game. Tubs gets more money and employ more staff.

Happy days.

[raknar_the_wolf]

Only in cases like Dominate Person or similar effects.

Then you have had rather boring D&D games, IMHO. I have been a DM in plenty of games when players' characters have had conflicting goals to the point where it came to combat. Heck, I had a game where a war broke out between nations because of player actions and different members of the gaming group ended up on opposite sides of the war. I always hated games where the DM was so constrictive that such things were not possible.

[shortdevils]

"Stop spending dev time on anything that is frivolous and extraneous to my likes and desires. My likes are what is important and your likes be dammed."

Is my understanding of the OP correct?

Why not create and maintain a game that can entertain people of different interests at the same time? Is it really such a burden to you that some percentage of the paying population enjoys PvP? Have you ever tried PvP outside of the tavern brawls? You may be surprised what you could and could not enjoy if you reexamined your prejudices.

I know I was.

Qft.

[Myrddinman]

Yep, Out of sight, out of mind would help PvP become less of an "I Hate it, kill it with fire." because it spills over into gen chat in harbor, and noise/distraction on taverns. It becomes an annoyance.

They should move the PvP Pits to the 'basement' of the Taverns, or a seperate location/instance. Then it wouldn't be on people's radar as much. The gen chat trash talking in harbor or wherever is especially annoying.

I wouldn't mind the idea of arena/ team pvP stuff. Like a defend the airship kind of capture the flag thing could be fun. But the brawling pits right now are just griefer pits to gank n00bz lol lol lol.


Once again Mem speaks the truth.

TBH, the ONLY PvP I 'like' in DDO is our Arena's. The open pit PvP has brought nothing but strife, complaints, harassment, and the worse the MMO community has to offer to our beloved game.


Myself - I just wish they'd move it outta the taverns and into their own separate locales. That way the minority of people who enjoy it can continue doing so, and those who are annoyed or bothered by it no longer have to be subjected to the sounds or effects of it going on nearby.

All of this ^

Please just move it out of the taverns. I understand the allure of the locale (tavern brawls) but I am tired of being in the Tavern and seeing my screen shake and hear the constant going-ons down there. This is all not to mention the chat channel. At the very least, if you keep it in the taverns, make it a separate instance behind closed doors :p

How about an arena built somewhere for all PvP purposes? If you want to test your build, go to the Arena. If you want to PvP, go to the Arena. If you want to watch players beat the **** out of each other, go the Arena. If you want to place bets who has the biggest ePeen, go the Arena :p

[stille_nacht]

i *gasp* actually like the idea of a nice, fair, and interesting PvP challenge, could be fun to try to kill players in a balance setting

Do i think it should be implemented now? no. As of now, the game needs to continue to expand its world (especially its free to play one), while introducing more content. When the DDO world is at least twice as big with 1.5 times as much content, id be happy to see soem sort of capture the flag or else type instance where all the values are tweaked for balance (but only in that specific instance of course).

but moving onto the argument to get rid of it... why does it matter? its not like they are bothering you or anything... even if i am not a super fan of pvp as of now, i know a small portion of the playerbase does use it to kill time and/or enjoys it, good for them, they arent really bothering me....

and ive not really seen much PvP trash talk in the harbor general chat.... perhaps it happens mostly in tells on khyber?

[Kalari]

I honestly cannot believe that someone would argue against putting their money where their mouth is.

Im point blank calling it out as selfish to. As a vip I pay for any extra amenties I want on my ship including crafting altars and the like. Not because anyone forces me because I want to support my game that I have been playing for years.

When I suggested things like housing as a time sink I went in with the honest notion that they would want to make money from any kind of addition of this time sink.

Like it or not in ddo pvp will be treated as a time sink unless they decide to make it a content focus and even then it will more then likely try to appeal to those with subscriptions over those who do not pay or at least be put into packs which can be sold.

For anyone to dare argue against bringing more revenue in the game is mind boggling to me. How can you just expect something like a pvp overhaul to happen without a chance to make profit from it? Seriously do any of you know how business is run? I just cannot understand the sentiment that putting your money where your mouth is is such a bad thing. I do it just to play the **** game I don't think its unfair to see if people are willing to do so to have things they like added to the game.

[stille_nacht]

I honestly cannot believe that someone would argue against putting their money where their mouth is.

Im point blank calling it out as selfish to. As a vip I pay for any extra amenties I want on my ship including crafting altars and the like. Not because anyone forces me because I want to support my game that I have been playing for years.

When I suggested things like housing as a time sink I went in with the honest notion that they would want to make money from any kind of addition of this time sink.

Like it or not in ddo pvp will be treated as a time sink unless they decide to make it a content focus and even then it will more then likely try to appeal to those with subscriptions over those who do not pay or at least be put into packs which can be sold.

For anyone to dare argue against bringing more revenue in the game is mind boggling to me. How can you just expect something like a pvp overhaul to happen without a chance to make profit from it? Seriously do any of you know how business is run? I just cannot understand the sentiment that putting your money where your mouth is is such a bad thing. I do it just to play the **** game I don't think its unfair to see if people are willing to do so to have things they like added to the game.

there is a difference between direct and indirect revenue i think, this is why the f2p model is working about a billion times better than the p2p one.
for example, if every quest pack that ever comes out from now on is p2p, this will actually attract less revenue than if it was 20% free/ 80% p2p, because with just that 20% free, the playerbase is increased by a significant enought amount that sales of p2p packs increases more overall.

seeing as PvP is supposed to attract a new section of the playerbase, making it p2p would repel them away, and therefore you would have less people to buy packs. Free PvP, could, theoretically, attract a large amount of players, who would then buy P2P content to level there characters/havefun/etc. etc.

[Aurora1979]

I honestly cannot believe that someone would argue against putting their money where their mouth is.

For anyone to dare argue against bringing more revenue in the game is mind boggling to me. How can you just expect something like a pvp overhaul to happen without a chance to make profit from it?

I just cannot understand the sentiment that putting your money where your mouth is is such a bad thing. I do it

+1

Ill butcher it then quote this.

You know what, I 100% agree. 6 times now i have suggested that PvPers pay for what they want. each time its either been ignored or been commented on as...

"do you realise how much that will cost us".... Type comments. Its simple. I pay for PvE NOT PvP. I have NOTHING whatsoever against investment of time into PvP as long as it is payed for by people that want to play it. Why pay for something you dont want. Thats directly against the P2P option surely.

[Aurora1979]

for example, if every quest pack that ever comes out from now on is p2p, this will actually attract less revenue than if it was 20% free/ 80% p2p

Really? why? the people that want to sample the game still have a free aspect to sample.

Sure if someone samples free to play, plays it all then wants MORE then cant get anymore free. But thats the purpose.

There is a sample of the game to attract new players. If they play all that content and dont want to stick around and/or pay for more then they never will.

[Kalari]

there is a difference between direct and indirect revenue i think, this is why the f2p model is working about a billion times better than the p2p one.
for example, if every quest pack that ever comes out from now on is p2p, this will actually attract less revenue than if it was 20% free/ 80% p2p, because with just that 20% free, the playerbase is increased by a significant enought amount that sales of p2p packs increases more overall.

seeing as PvP is supposed to attract a new section of the playerbase, making it p2p would repel them away, and therefore you would have less people to buy packs. Free PvP, could, theoretically, attract a large amount of players, who would then buy P2P content to level there characters/havefun/etc. etc.

Some of the suggestions people have made would make it where any new pvp additions they add would attract those who could pay for it while leaving the pits for those who cannot. It is just like adventure packs if you cant buy them you cant enjoy the content many of us put our money where out mouths is either by staying subscribed or going premium. the game does give us those choices. I just cannot get behind anything that does not bring the game potential profits, thats where longevity comes from and like it or not any new additions to this game will have some kinda profit tied into them hidden or no. Id rather support something profit driven and keep my game then to act like free is the full way to go. As I said in my thread eventually even free to play people will find themselves shelling out dough if they stick around long enough to care.

[Aries1040]

Believe it or not there are some people who refuse to pay to play this game instead they grind out tp to buy packs and they would do the samething for pvp p2p it's fine the way it is , and if your PnP D&D groups are so closed minded to not let people do what they want maybe you shouldn't play anymore I can't count the times as a DM where the players went off and did other stuff the what I had planned because they didn't want to go kill a dragon they wanted to go get drunk or take over an evil town or start there own kingdom with the money they collected throughout the campaign it doesn't matter if it's PnP ddo pvp pve players are gonna do what they want and there is always gonna be someone complaining about something so just play the game only read what you want :-)

[Kalari]

Believe it or not there are some people who refuse to pay to play this game instead they grind out tp to buy packs and they would do the samething for pvp p2p it's fine the way it is , and if your PnP D&D groups are so closed minded to not let people do what they want maybe you shouldn't play anymore I can't count the times as a DM where the players went off and did other stuff the what I had planned because they didn't want to go kill a dragon they wanted to go get drunk or take over an evil town or start there own kingdom with the money they collected throughout the campaign it doesn't matter if it's PnP ddo pvp pve players are gonna do what they want and there is always gonna be someone complaining about something so just play the game only read what you want :-)

Um what the heck are you talking about? yeah there are some people who may grind out packs but there are others who will and do eventually try to support the game.

Are you against supporting your game so it sticks around? Really? and what does my pnp have to do with ddo my mmo? nothing if you ask me.

[Aries1040]

I've spent a lot of money to play this game over $400 instead of buying a new game every month I buy tp I have 2 premium accounts where I own all the content but I'm dont want to spend tp to pvp if I feel like doing it between raids or quests which I rarely do but it's nice to have

[dieselphiend]

Plz cry some more, it's very entertaining. Why get rid of pvp when it's mostly the new crowd of players, or the new subscriber base, that plays it? See what I'm saying? Ok, the DDO dinosaurs (founders), (holier than thou), (dieing breed), don't like something, nerf it... Get a clue, the new subscriber base (most) likes it... The new subscriber base is the majority, therefore we pwn joo...

[hityawithastick]

Plz cry some more, it's very entertaining. Why get rid of pvp when it's mostly the new crowd of players, or the new subscriber base, that plays it? See what I'm saying? Ok, the DDO dinosaurs (founders), (holier than thou), (dieing breed), don't like something, nerf it... Get a clue, the new subscriber base (most) likes it... The new subscriber base is the majority, therefore we pwn joo...

I disagree with the precise phrasing, but yes, the more long-standing players tend not to come into PvP.


....it's just a phase, we'll grow out of it. :p

Plus, the next generation of player buys their way to level 20 so they can "rule" the pvp arena, paying for our game! :D

[Rogann]

If pvp is gone then ddo is even more lame, u grind out raids then chill for 3 days. Now *** do u do?

[Hell77]

or just leave it as it is pvp is awesome if it wasnt for it some people woulddnt push them selfs to become better

[flynnjsw]

or just leave it as it is pvp is awesome if it wasnt for it some people woulddnt push them selfs to become better

I push myself to become better just to be better. I don't need PvP for that.

[Galacticos]

why people hate pvp? maybe because they always get pwned in pvp? lolzzz

[protokon]

why people hate pvp? maybe because they always get pwned in pvp? lolzzz

well to be honest, they don't like the taunting, (immature) attitudes of some people who do participate in it.

As shown by a veteran player on my server, PVP has great potential for organized events that can be fun for everyone to participate. It is apparent that the forum standards are to disown any and all types of pvp suggestions.

If I were to walk into a thread under the spellcasters forums, in which people are discussing a spellcasting mechanic that may or may not be overpowered, and state "they should get rid of wizards because I don't like them, no dev time should be spent on casters because I like melees" - The entire community would be in an uproar at the trolling comment.

For some reason, the exact opposite attitude is the norm for the pvp forums unfortunately - and still does not make sense to me. Why so much hate over something you apparently don't care about? rhetorical question, would rather not debate that.

[Vengeance777]

Here is the main reason PVP pit should stay in the game: Testing.

PVPing with another player is the fastest most reliable way to get accurate data on DCs, effects, damage absorption, spell casting levels, stacking/unstacking effects, broken weapons/spells, etc...

A lot of spells, fortification, items, broken weapons, and other effects have been fixed because people used data gained from the PVP to prove to the devs they were broken.

Until the devs provide a training dummy you can program with effects similar to a player and that provides numbers and feedback on spells and dc based attacks PVP is the only way to reliably test it.

[Trillea]

Why so much hate over something you apparently don't care about? rhetorical question, would rather not debate that.

I *never* said I don't care about it. I DO care - I want it gone. It was not here at the games' inception, and this was one of the big selling points for me. I was against it being put in, and am still against its very existance on the servers. If there was a PvP server, I could see that as I could completely ignore it. But as it is, I cannot, and therefore I started this thread as a response to other PvP threads so that they would not be derailed any further.

PvP has no place in a Dungeons and Dragons game. Period.

[Trillea]

Until the devs provide a training dummy you can program with effects similar to a player and that provides numbers and feedback on spells and dc based attacks PVP is the only way to reliably test it.

This is true, but this should have existed from the get-go anyway. The training dummy is an absolute joke.

[ChildrenofBodom]

Not another one of these stupid threads....look...

Read someone's post saying Dungeons and Dragons is all about teamwork and blah blah blah. You are WRONG. Dungeons and Dragons is for the sole purpose of having fun with your imagination. That's it. They won't remove, or stop working on, the PvP system because not only have they spent time and money on it, but they would loose players.

How do I know that? Because I used to be one. PvP used to be all I did a couple years ago. Why? because it was really fun, especially when raiding/crafting/etc got repetitive and boring (well, there wasn't crafting back then, but you know what I mean heh)....that's it. Just like questing and improving my character is "fun", and that's what it's all about.

You can whine to get rid of PvP just like people whine for it to be improved. You are no different from them. Actually, you are different, because what they are asking for might and probably will happen. Sorry, but yours will not.

In reality, you should be lucky you even get to play DDO. Here in Afghanistan I don't have a good enough internet connection to play :(... So let the PvPers have their fun.

[Gladiator_206]

2) Leave PvP as-is, in its current form, with no further amount of developer time ever spent on it at all.


Do this. PvP threads are pointless, unless of course someone is trying to set up an event.

PvP is perfect as it is, it holds no incentive for anyone who doesn't like it, while people who do like it can use it whenever they want (good example - all those small competitions such as last man standing - they can be fun). Its perfect and shouldn't be touched. Its PvP threads that need to be removed, not the actual thing itself.



Disclaimer: I don't even PvP - ever, I just think its in a perfect state right now. Just leave it alone.

[MsEricka]

/signed

Remove PvP now

[Backley]

No need to remove (at least until we get a testing dummy instead of the useless 'training dummy'), but don't waste dev time on it either.

I think the better solution would be an 'ignore forum section' option so I don't need see this (or other forums I don't care about) on the 'New Posts' page.

I can already ignore PvP in-game fairly easily. Please give me a way to avoid it on the New Posts page.

Edit: Perhaps I'll make another Greasemonkey script.
Edit2: Made a DDO Ignore Forum (http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/105283) script that hides the PvP and Suggestions forums from the New Posts page. My needs are now met, I'm unsubscribing from this thread.

[protokon]

PvP has no place in a Dungeons and Dragons game. Period.

Well first off, thanks for not derailing every other thread discussing mechanics. Secondly, why do you feel this way?

There are many reasons why people enjoy this mechanic. and the reasons are not counter-productive to any other aspect of the game, other than dev time being spent tweaking it (which has been THE counter-argument to date).

If anything, it needs to be left alone. The mechanics as-is have great potential for public and/or private events. The minor lobster tweaks that have been petitioned for, well..those are another subject.

But I would warn ya - if PVP is going to be a pay to play thing, it'd better become a full blown mechanic of this game, which is going to upset a lot of people (including myself) which would be better off leaving as is.

[stille_nacht]

in tabletop, PvP could be lots of fun :O, especially if we were doing squad vs. squad.

course in ddo it isnt balanced at all, so just leave it. why have the devs waste time on something that affects no one else? some people talk in general chat while pvping, but you can just squelch them... (if youve never experienced this, that is because it only happnes on 2 servers often)

[protokon]

in tabletop, PvP could be lots of fun :O, especially if we were doing squad vs. squad.

course in ddo it isnt balanced at all, so just leave it. why have the devs waste time on something that affects no one else? some people talk in general chat while pvping, but you can just squelch them... (if youve never experienced this, that is because it only happnes on 2 servers often)

yeah the other night we had some bozo spamming in trade channel, complaining about me. it was amusing for about 5 minutes, then got really old.

some people are just immature. pvp didn't make them that way, and certainly wont stop them from being that way.

[Trillea]

Secondly, why do you feel this way?

I feel this way because PvP is against everything that Dungeons and Dragons is supposed to be about. In D&D you are a group of heroic people trying to go out and do some sort of good deed or series of deeds to make the world that you are in a better place. You accomplish this through working together as a group to overcome the challenges that are put before you.

DDO is the same way, as is evidenced by the fact that they do not allow players to be evil alignments. PvP, when it comes down to it, is just another way to wave an e-peen. I do not like e-peen waving, and this is one of the most visible forms of it. I will admit, I post my big crit numbers in my bio, but that is nowhere near the level of waving that many PvPers go to.

Dungeons and Dragons holds a place very near and dear to my heart. PvP in D&D's online form strikes at the core of what I hold valuable in that game, and I want it to go away, now and forever.

[Dispel]

I already pay for PvP. If you don't like it don't go there or whatever.

It's like someone suggesting to God "please remove Hawaii it's not even attached to our continent and blah blah blah" when people go there to have fun and vacation etc.

[NexEverto]

Here is the main reason PVP pit should stay in the game: Testing.

PVPing with another player is the fastest most reliable way to get accurate data on DCs, effects, damage absorption, spell casting levels, stacking/unstacking effects, broken weapons/spells, etc...

A lot of spells, fortification, items, broken weapons, and other effects have been fixed because people used data gained from the PVP to prove to the devs they were broken.

Until the devs provide a training dummy you can program with effects similar to a player and that provides numbers and feedback on spells and dc based attacks PVP is the only way to reliably test it.

Logic! Ideas! Doooom!

Jokes aside, you make a very good point Vengeance.

If you don't want to PvP, don't. I PvP on and off, big deal. Most of my friends don't really like PvP but they don't suggest I should be removed from the game. However, a lot of them do enjoy jumping down in the pit and testing weapons, guards, spells and whatever else against either my over geared Bard or over geared Ranger. If you know what your doing, PvP can be a really powerful tool when making calculations for DPS, AC, DCs and whatever else. I agree with everyone who says you should number crunch the old fashioned way too, but chances are you'll find something that in game doesn't behave or act like it should when your calculate it on paper. You really should try testing your gear out on a friend one day, you might just learn something from it.

Just because PvP isn't your thing doesn't mean it should be removed totally, or cost extra for those who enjoy it for one reason or another. It generally just means you should avoid it, and yes, I know trade spam about how someone "sk!11z k!11z" someone else can be annoying, but that's only a fine line from people who spam the forums calling for nerfs. Turning a blind eye can sometimes do wonders, I mean, I have to do it every time I see a Half Elf. :D

[Lyzern]

/rofl@thread

Why are you people so displeased about PvP? I used to be more of a PvP freak in MMO's, but PvP in MMO's is too imbalanced to even be considered, it takes no skill at all to play, it's all about who has the best gear. Now that that's out of the way:

- DDO has very exciting and fun quests so for me, PvP isn't needed, but some people like to stop fighting kobolds and have fun with some friendly competition. I do NOT see anything wrong with this.
- I understand D&D is a teamwork/cooperation game, but there are many people who play DDO that didn't play D&D (me for example), so they should not be flamed if they like the MMO Systems.
- If you're so afraid that the dev's will spend time into PvP, why are you suggesting they spend time removing it?
- I could rage and call you whining elitists, but I decided I'll be superior to you in terms of insults.


I feel this way because PvP is against everything that Dungeons and Dragons is supposed to be about. In D&D you are a group of heroic people trying to go out and do some sort of good deed or series of deeds to make the world that you are in a better place. You accomplish this through working together as a group to overcome the challenges that are put before you.

DDO is the same way, as is evidenced by the fact that they do not allow players to be evil alignments. PvP, when it comes down to it, is just another way to wave an e-peen. I do not like e-peen waving, and this is one of the most visible forms of it. I will admit, I post my big crit numbers in my bio, but that is nowhere near the level of waving that many PvPers go to.

Dungeons and Dragons holds a place very near and dear to my heart. PvP in D&D's online form strikes at the core of what I hold valuable in that game, and I want it to go away, now and forever.

Quoting this I say: Then I suggest we all make suggestions to remove all the elitists a-holes thinking the only way to build a character is theirs, claiming how badass they are and how pro solo'ers they are, that doesn't seem very "D&D-ish"

[irivan]

PVP completely has a place in Dnd, both paper side and MMO side. People that sit here and insist that PVP does not exist in Dnd and that it is alien to it, have not read the rules, and also have not played at any major role playing convention either.

PVP was first introduced to me in PnP in 1986. Not only has it always been an allowable option per the DMG's of the various editions, i contend that if you want a more real play experience, that is how it is best done.

Those of you who "hate" PVP remind me of some good friends of mine that just arent very good at video games, didnt play things like Quake and Unreal Tournament because they couldn't handle the speed of the game.

Let me remind you, just because you dont like something, does not mean that it should be "removed". That is like me saying I dont like religion so i then go out plead to make sure that all people who do like it are labotimized so they will forget about.....And i think we all know where that is headed.

PVP is a part of Dnd and always has been, and is part of DDO and should be, in fact i encourage the devs to spend more time on it, develop rankings and even go further to make certain highway zones where people can engage openly in combat for their loot.

If you cant hack it, dont get involved, if you cant stop your self from spamming people like me who just aced you with a TTS as being unfair, weak, etc, dont do it. If PVP offends your senses to the point that you cant enter zones where you see chatter from it, turn the chatter off, or dont go to those zones.

You have no right to ask other people to conform to your ideologies...

Good luck with that.

[Galacticos]

if devs removed the pvp, i will stop playing ddo..
its a place where i test my new toys, after a heart pumping questing :)

[phum]

I echo the comments above mine about pvp serving both as a testing environment and also as a vast source of potential for ddo. It is already a part of ddo (and also d&d), but could be much more than it currently is.

I assume ddo is nowadays making hefty profit. This imo should reflect in improvement/development and pvp with its vast potential should be on the list. Definitely on the development list instead of a removal list.

If you can't stand some kid blurting blurting something, use /ignore or avoid the zone. A rather good developmental approach to this would be to isolate the chat zone for the pvp zone. That would not solve the problem totally, but would erase a large percentage of the chat op so abhors.

[-Satureon-]

OP:
still can't understand why the histery about pvp. if you dont like it, don't do. simple.

i think devs already did something for PvP, to make all the whiners happy: cracked down more the balance... but prolly not only at PvP, it's true for PvE in some case also.

[Kovalas]

PVP completely has a place in Dnd, both paper side and MMO side. People that sit here and insist that PVP does not exist in Dnd and that it is alien to it, have not read the rules, and also have not played at any major role playing convention either.

PVP was first introduced to me in PnP in 1986. Not only has it always been an allowable option per the DMG's of the various editions, i contend that if you want a more real play experience, that is how it is best done.

Those of you who "hate" PVP remind me of some good friends of mine that just arent very good at video games, didnt play things like Quake and Unreal Tournament because they couldn't handle the speed of the game.

Let me remind you, just because you dont like something, does not mean that it should be "removed". That is like me saying I dont like religion so i then go out plead to make sure that all people who do like it are labotimized so they will forget about.....And i think we all know where that is headed.

PVP is a part of Dnd and always has been, and is part of DDO and should be, in fact i encourage the devs to spend more time on it, develop rankings and even go further to make certain highway zones where people can engage openly in combat for their loot.

If you cant hack it, dont get involved, if you cant stop your self from spamming people like me who just aced you with a TTS as being unfair, weak, etc, dont do it. If PVP offends your senses to the point that you cant enter zones where you see chatter from it, turn the chatter off, or dont go to those zones.

You have no right to ask other people to conform to your ideologies...

Good luck with that.

Don't play PVP very often but I totally agree with this.

/Not Signed

[dickens]

PvP has no place in a Dungeons and Dragons MMO. DnD is about cooperation and teamwork to accomplish goals, not 1-upmanship to increase someone's epeen. It did not have it at start (one of the big draws that brought me to this game in the first place) and should not have been added later. It never has fit well ingame in its current implementation except as a test bed for new abilities. So here are my suggestions (in order of my preference)

1) Completely remove PVP in all forms and recode the training dummy to be able to be completely customized (hp, saves, fortification, AC, whatever) and have all abilities usable on it with extended combat feedback if wanted.

2) Leave PvP as-is, in its current form, with no further amount of developer time ever spent on it at all. Money and time already spent is gone (wasted IMO) and no reason throwing good money after bad.

3) This is my least favorite option, but lets the PvPers put their money where their mouth is. Make all aspects of PvP store-only: brawls, challenges, whatever. Any and all development costs (Dev salaries, whatever) for PvP can only go up to an amount that is capped by whatever money is brought in by PvP sales.

I am tired of seeing thread after thread about PvP when it has no place in a DnD MMO. Please remove it completely.

But then all the kids will come do ToD with uS :0 NOO

[scottmike0]

Noooo dont get rid of pvp it what makes this game balanced D: when u get tired of facing mobs that hard move or teleport to you get bored of them real quick but in pvp the enemys play with you like you play in quests ... pvp helps do quests and also teaches you new skill to kill stuff and i bet most of the people who play ddo did pvp at least once and it was very fun so DOnt get rid of it if it is then whats the point of playing the game.. pvp is fun and always nice to take a break from fighting programed mobs not jump and not skillful like you.... there is more to this game besides questing and pvp is one of them DONT get rid of it!!
/Not signed

[Beeeeeaner]

/not signed

I don't like PvP, nor do I care about it at all, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't keep other people playing and having fun.

I don't want the devs to spend any resources on PvP per se, and trying to balance the game for PvP is not needed as it will mess with PvE which is at the heart of D&D (and thus DDO) but getting rid of it entirely seems unnecessary.

I would like them to give the Wayward Lobster it's own chat channel though.

I can not stand when people say that. Give one example why that would? I think they do certain things to leave in there on purpose for this. Its a joke such as you can cast ice storm over and over to the point where it lags but you can cast firewalls? Anyone who pvps, enjoys it because they are one of 4 classes that can actually pvp is just wasting time in there. Just take it out of the game.

[katana_one]

I feel this way because PvP is against everything that Dungeons and Dragons is supposed to be about.

D&D is about whatever the people playing it want it to be about. That's the point. Not forcing your point of view about what it's about on other people.

There is no one correct way to enjoy playing D&D. There is no one correct way to enjoy playing DDO.

I don't PvP in DDO as I have no interest in it at all. I don't particularly like PvP in my tabletop games, either. But I don't insist that my way is the only way play.

DDO has PvP. Get over it.