Turbine please block Divine Punishment in PVP

[Yajerman01]

Simply stated.

CONCESSIONS: (lets get this out of the way)

1. DDO is not designed around pvp
2. I do not beleive an exorbant amount of time should be vested in the PVP arena
3. Im against recoding PVP to balance gameplay as a whole.

MY ARGUMENT:

Block Divine Punishment in the PVP arena as you do other Spells because Melees essentially cannot counter this spell except for not dropping down into the arena. The counter to this spell essentially is by dispelling it. Most if not all melees cannot dispell over a casters DC.

Sans Divine Punishment all other spells currently used in PVP are absolutely fine. TUrbine has in the past blocked spells that now cannot be used in the pit I therefore see no reason to not block this.

Searing light, scorching ray and any other non-save spell requires a direct line hit, a melees counter is to keep moving; Meeorswarm and the new Savant DOT's for the most part have a save opportunity to mitigate damage.

There is no save opportunity to Divine Punishment, it stacks making it virtually impossible to heal through once the third tier stack takes effect.

DP has ruined any meleers abilities to counter.

Please block DP from the pit.

[Jaid314]

to stack divine punishment 3 times, the favored soul needs 20 seconds. the solution is to not stand there for 20 seconds... run up to the favored soul and trip them, or stun them, or kill them. problem solved, no more triple-stacked divine punishment.

so, if you can heal through single stack just fine, that gives you a minimum of 10 seconds to do something about the attack before getting the double stack. run away for a bit, get out of LOS when it's time for them to refresh it, trip or stun them so that they can't re-cast it on you, etc.

[Yajerman01]

to stack divine punishment 3 times, the favored soul needs 20 seconds. the solution is to not stand there for 20 seconds... run up to the favored soul and trip them, or stun them, or kill them. problem solved, no more triple-stacked divine punishment.

so, if you can heal through single stack just fine, that gives you a minimum of 10 seconds to do something about the attack before getting the double stack. run away for a bit, get out of LOS when it's time for them to refresh it, trip or stun them so that they can't re-cast it on you, etc.


You dont pvp much against FVS do you? It is simply not possible to do what your saying unless your up against a FVS who doesnt PVP much and is willing to just stand there for you.

I'll play the FVS her for a sec. You the melee drop down, 1st hit, as you approach i fly across the room, I turn around and bam second hit, Now you as a "healing" melee either get busy spamming your heals and trying to hide or try to go after a fvs whos gonna fly away again, so you drop down and try to hide, I the FVS have you targeted so its not hard to tier the third after i locate you. ENDGAME.

sorry but I disagree with your simplistic solution. Its neither tangbile or realistic now.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I'm willing to bet they still need line of sight to you.

Seems they should have to make concentration checks too. And probably can't cast when hit with disabling effects.....

Bet it has a limited range too. (unlike ranged weapons)


But I'll admit that I never saw the thrill of outsmarting an opponent in cage match. ;)

[Yajerman01]

I'm willing to bet they still need line of sight to you. Cant confirm because i spammed the second i drop down

Seems they should have to make concentration checks too. And probably can't cast when hit with disabling effects..... Most have quicken but assumign they dont, there in the back and you have to run up on them, they fly away turn around and do it again, concentration is minute in this scenario.

Bet it has a limited range too. (unlike ranged weapons) Limited range in a limited room. As you say, cage match.


But I'll admit that I never saw the thrill of outsmarting an opponent in cage match. ;)

Response in yellow :)

[Hafeal]

I am so hunting you down with my FvS ... :p:D

[FooWonk]

There is no save opportunity to Divine Punishment, it stacks making it virtually impossible to heal through once the third tier stack takes effect.

Any of the following should stop the effect:
-> bless
-> aid
-> mass aid

Remove curse may also counter the effect.

[loki_3369]

I totally agree.

While we're at it: just disable all spells, clickies (except self buffs for melee's), and arcane archer arrow imbue's. After you do that, slow every non-melee character's movement (and attack speed for AA's and such) by 85% while at the same time boosting all melee character's movement and attack speeds by 50%.

[protokon]

Any of the following should stop the effect:
-> bless
-> aid
-> mass aid

Remove curse may also counter the effect.

wrong. none of these effects will stop it.

edit: block meteor swarm and past life magic missiles as well (or at least let it be blocked by night shield like its supposed to)

[Yajerman01]

Any of the following should stop the effect:
-> bless
-> aid
-> mass aid

Remove curse may also counter the effect.


I notice "should" and "may" are used in your retort.

I will make a deal with you. Know what your talking about with factual back-up before opining and I will stop whining. You obviously do not know what works and what does not.

[Yajerman01]

I am so hunting you down with my FvS ... :p:D

hehehe, transfer over! What guild are you in on Khyber now? long time no see. :)

[redspecter23]

There are other ways to balance pvp other than outright removal of spells and abilities. Off the top of my head how about an item that reflects magic damage back at the caster? Just the existence of such an item means that dealing 100's of damage at one time could simply result in the death of the caster instead of the target. They would have to think twice before casting at anyone for fear of reprisal. Inflation of hit points could be another thing to be added. When abilities could be dealing 1000's of points on a single hit, 500 hp just makes the matches end way too fast. If each person in the pit scaled their hp by 10x or 25x then you could take a few good hits before you bite the dust.

[Vyrn]

Sure.

Be sure to block:
Trip
Stun
Sap
PWs
Ottos
Heat death
TR missiles
.
.
.

See where this is going? Block one OP thing, and you should block the OP things other classes get too. The OP things balance out, how about you just stick to ganking or pvp with a friend on a melee. No offence, DDOs pvp is just to broken to give melees a fighting chance without making it undergo a major revamp. A decent caster can kill a lv20 melee with a jump clicky/pendant/and any ray spell. Really, just not set up for melee as is.

There might be some way to make it more fair, but I dont believe blocking spells the the way to go, that just leads to a slippery slope of the recently nerfed class whining to block other classes abilities in much the same way melees are right now. It wont work.

[Yajerman01]

There are other ways to balance pvp other than outright removal of spells and abilities. Off the top of my head how about an item that reflects magic damage back at the caster? Just the existence of such an item means that dealing 100's of damage at one time could simply result in the death of the caster instead of the target. They would have to think twice before casting at anyone for fear of reprisal. Inflation of hit points could be another thing to be added. When abilities could be dealing 1000's of points on a single hit, 500 hp just makes the matches end way too fast. If each person in the pit scaled their hp by 10x or 25x then you could take a few good hits before you bite the dust.


Never said anything about abilities just "A" Spell.

[PwnHammer40K]

I vote for melee classes getting an ability like this:

http://oi51.tinypic.com/6oh1zd.jpg
Happy, OP?

[jcTharin]

but i like dieing a slow and unavoidable death. its just like how i died before except i have a few more seconds to live.

[jcTharin]

I vote for melee classes getting an ability like this:

http://oi51.tinypic.com/6oh1zd.jpg
Happy, OP?

we just got that. cleave got fixed in the last update and it is freaken awesome.

[Yajerman01]

I vote for melee classes getting an ability like this:

http://oi51.tinypic.com/6oh1zd.jpg
Happy, OP?

It would be sweet if all the other pvpers agreed to stand in a line and accept their fate to the...shall I name it?

The Abundant Ki stike! FTW

[Kmnh]

I've seen so many people kill a fvs then die to divine punishment.

The "aura of menace" eats mantle charges. There is an infamous fvs on cannith that flies into the pit and goes right back to the balcony over and over, until he sees an opening to gank someone. He usually dies horrible deaths to the rangers though

[pie2655]

I agree OP, DP is rediculous, especially when you kill the FVS and then the DP kills you. Ice Storm dissapears once the caster is killed, its a DOT, so why shouldnt DP?

[Yajerman01]

I've seen so many people kill a fvs then die to divine punishment.

The "aura of menace" eats mantle charges. There is an infamous fvs on cannith that flies into the pit and goes right back to the balcony over and over, until he sees an opening to gank someone. He usually dies horrible deaths to the rangers though


Ill be an AA in 2 levels, but I dont want to be relegated as a range slayer, i prefer to run after and widdle them down twf style. My alternative now looks like at cap i would be forced to drop gank/slay and hop back up on the perch- that really takes the element of "fighting" away from me as a melee and quite frankly disinterests me becasue that is not my MO.

[Pape_27]

no need to 86 the spell in the pits. This is just another call for an easy button.

change your tactics, change your gear etc.

get a few scarabs of spell absorbtion, get an ioun stone, get a clickie with bless on it, whatever works. Figure it out instead of crying about it.


_

[Vyrn]

I agree OP, DP is rediculous, especially when you kill the FVS and then the DP kills you. Ice Storm dissapears once the caster is killed, its a DOT, so why shouldnt DP?

This.

Leave it as is while caster is alive, remove DoT after caster is dead. I dont know why it doesnt work this way already actually, all the other spells do (not sure about arcane DoTs).

[mournbladereigns]

I vote for melee classes getting an ability like this:

http://oi51.tinypic.com/6oh1zd.jpg
Happy, OP?

Umm, that's post U9 great cleave, yo!

[Symerith]

So what about arcane DoTs :). Cant block those either, and those still do enough DPS through resist prot to matter, TR missiles do so too.

Hell, half the spells on the list stop melee activity.

Please, tell me what about my post is trolling, nothing offensive in that, except me not agreeing with you. Not everyone who doesnt agree with you is a troll.

And how you are supposed to trip a favored soul with wings?
If the Fvs in question is a heavy noob, killing him is nearly impossible.
If the Fvs PvP a bit, it becomes impossible.

DR, Wings and now DP? Now, you explain me where the balance is in Pvp.

I'm not talking about all the cheap stuff about PvP. While I enjoy Pvping, when it comes to arcane past life feat, annoying rangers who brag all day long about all their PvP kills (and never admit they fail at DPS on the long run for the most part) divines or bards with song of cappering, I prefer leaving the brawl to those "beasts".

Let me tell you where the balance is :
Divines > Arcanes > AA > Paladins > Bards > Most melees.

PvP is not designed to be fair. PvP in DDO will NEVER be fair... You cannot have fairness when all classes have their different abilities which make them special.

Various abilities, various classes makes this game not boring & fun. While I agree some improvements could be made, removing those abilities wouldn't make it fun anymore.

For all those peeps who don't get it yet, Pvp is not about tactic, it's not about the gear you acquire, and even if player skill & HP begin to matter just a little bit at this point, it's about the Class your playing.

There are but two solutions.
==> Fight someone with the same class and same lvl, which is nearly impossible.
==> Make a BETTER PvP toon, let's say an 18/2 favored soul/monk with high saves, high HP, evasion, offensive spellcasting? But once again... DDO is not about PvP...

[FooWonk]

I notice "should" and "may" are used in your retort.

I will make a deal with you. Know what your talking about with factual back-up before opining and I will stop whining. You obviously do not know what works and what does not.

Re: the facts
========
My mistake...you're correct...I was confused with the retribution curse, which is a bane effect.


Re: continuing whinage
========
No, really, you're whining about balance in DDO's PvP? Really? If that's what you're into (not PvP, but whining), then keep on at it.

[Habreno]

Someone above posted how the Divine Punishment stack should be removed upon caster death. I agree with this, and know that even if I die after casting it it stays. Dealing about 750 damage over a single -stack 16 second duration... and that's not counting crits of 2.25x-2.5x with a chance of 15% on them. And at that chance you're likely to get one almost all the time, with two not being out of the probability, and zero unlikely, for average damage of about 98 a tick and 221 a crit on 2.25x. 7 non-crits and 1 crit means nearly 900 damage on a single stack. Higher if the crit manages to roll the 6. And don't even try and heal through a double-stack. Unless you're quickened, it's not happening at nearly 200 damage a tick, with between 400 and 500 crits.

That is why I am /signed for removal on death of caster. Some semibalance. But removal from PVP altogether is "ideal, but not recommended"

[protokon]

a simple bless clickie eliminates the divine retribution, which increases your susceptability to light damage, which in turn will will cut the damage output of the spell by up to 20%...

but you knew that already, didnt ya?


just another pvp whiner :rolleyes:
_

this has been stated several times. the post is about divine punishment, not divine retribution.

there is absolutely no spell or ability that will cancel divine punishment. bless, curse, nothing will cut down the ridiculous damage this spell does. even when the caster dies, all he has to do is sit back and watch the target die in the next 6-10 seconds.

[Yajerman01]

this has been stated several times. the post is about divine punishment, not divine retribution.

there is absolutely no spell or ability that will cancel divine punishment. bless, curse, nothing will cut down the ridiculous damage this spell does. even when the caster dies, all he has to do is sit back and watch the target die in the next 6-10 seconds.

Thank you Proto - I was testing those spells to counter DP the day I asked you to spam it on me.

[protokon]

Thank you Proto - I was testing those spells to counter it at out the day I asked you to spam DP on me.

I also did the testing with Made.

the only way to block it, is with an ioun stone basically. which is stupid.

[Yajerman01]

I also did the testing with Made.

the only way to block it, is with an ioun stone basically. which is stupid.

yeah i was gonna asked you how fast does it eat up an iuon - i heard 10 charges per tick. whihc makes it almost useless

[protokon]

yeah i was gonna asked you how fast does it eat up an iuon - i heard 10 charges per tick. whihc makes it almost useless

10 charges per tick. its definitely not entirely useless, as most other divine spells barely niche the stone, and the cooldown timer on DP is way too long to be effective at draining a stone during a fight.

sadly the best way to keep people from using it is to deter them by basically using the same tactic on them. arcane dot's / DP / icy prison / heat death.

[Yajerman01]

10 charges per tick. its definitely not entirely useless, as most other divine spells barely niche the stone, and the cooldown timer on DP is way too long to be effective at draining a stone during a fight.

sadly the best way to keep people from using it is to deter them by basically using the same tactic on them. arcane dot's / DP / icy prison / heat death.


Fine, ill give you a cloak of ice and fire greeves for your ioun, lol

[protokon]

Fine, ill give you a cloak of ice and fire greeves for your ioun, lol

I already got both, sorry! collection of blue scales rotting in my bank paid off :D

catch me in-game sometime though...

[Yajerman01]

That "chance" was long gone, well before DP made its way into the game.

Melee never had a chance in the first place against casters. Only poorly played casters would allow a melee to get close which is the only way they can win. Ioun stones are easily cleared. After that its the casters option as to what spell they want to use to ROFLpwn the melee with. This goes far beyond this one new spell that was just added. Removing this spell will result in the exact same situation. Caster runs and jumps all over the place - they just used a different spell to kill you with.

Real balanced PVP in most games is a chess match, and the winner usually understands the losers class and available options better than the player of that class does. Removing DP will not result in anything other than the caster choosing a different spell to wipe you out with.


You really make it sound futile. Sorry but I am going to disagree with you. I am not the best PVP player but I made every effort to get a caster/cleric down. In my tenure playing PVP i can literally count the casters that can own me outright on one hand, 3 FVS and 2 WF casters. And by no means to I consider the ones I beat any less of players or poor players.

PVP is also alwasy about adjusting and knowing your enemies and adjusting and adjusting.

SOrryt his spell you cannot counter or adjust to. simple as that (SAT)

[Chai]

You really make it sound futile. Sorry but I am going to disagree with you. I am not the best PVP player but I made every effort to get a caster/cleric down. In my tenure playing PVP i can literally count the casters that can own me outright on one hand, 3 FVS and 2 WF casters. And by no means to I consider the ones I beat any less of players or poor players.

PVP is also alwasy about adjusting and knowing your enemies and adjusting and adjusting.

SOrryt his spell you cannot counter or adjust to. simple as that (SAT)

This is by far not the first "uncounterable" spell.

And yes, balancing PVP after 5 years of non focus is futile.

Heck, even in games that are designed from the ground up for PVP, you still have class / spec combinations that are overpowered.

I would say casters who get beat alot by melee in DDO PVP either lack gear, ability, or both. Letting melee get close, which is the only way they can really win outright, is a mistake. Melee cant beat a caster by attrition, unless the caster is AFK. :p Attrition is the casters game, and that ioun stone is merely prolonging the melee's life for a few seconds.

If you really cant be beat by that many casters, then where are the casters asking for a nerf of whatever tactic you are using on them? The known trend in this game as far as PVP is concerned is to build for what we know is OP, then ask for everything we didnt build for to be nerfed. No sir, I dont like it.

[heyytoi]

BTW

Searing light is auto aim now, prety much like MM... really hard to miss and it got double range since U9.. so yeah just saying. PvP is now boring

Remove DP from pvp and make seering light avoidable again. Its frustrating not to need any skill to do pvp.

[Hendrik]

And nerf many shot. Song of capering is OP.

Hehe.

At a 99DC, I love it!

[fyrst.grok]

Remove effect on death - yes

Add spell reflecting shields - yes

Add friendly fire - yes (I know.. Only I want that..)

Block spells/abilities in pvp to 'balance' it - No - Go fight the shipdummy.

EDIT: Just add the Occult Slayer pre for barbarians and Holy Avengers..

[Teen]

So what about arcane DoTs :). Cant block those either, and those still do enough DPS through resist prot to matter, TR missiles do so too.

Hell, half the spells on the list stop melee activity.

Please, tell me what about my post is trolling, nothing offensive in that, except me not agreeing with you. Not everyone who doesnt agree with you is a troll.

Being a caster this is very true Electric Surge or Biting to name a few don't have a save.I completely agree with you

[Chai]

those all have saves attributed to them.

there is also a certain shield that will block dance / enchantment spells...

there still remains nothing to block the full force of DP - even after the caster dies.

Saves against bard songs? A mere technicality.

There are also ways to make it so a caster cant cast....

This however, would involve the caster allowing the melee to get close, which is in and of itself a mistake.

[Yajerman01]

Hehe.

At a 99DC, I love it!


Philarian Shield is a counter

[Chai]

Philarian Shield is a counter

Stun and trip are a counter.

[plural]

If you can't beat it, join it. Make a FS and use DP on someone else. If you are going to complain as a melee that its no fun, go pvp in another pvp pit with another melee if your getting grief.

I enjoy pvp on a mild scale in this game. Not a pvp hater at all.

[Yajerman01]

If you can't beat it, join it. Make a FS and use DP on someone else. If you are going to complain as a melee that its no fun, go pvp in another pvp pit with another melee if your getting grief.

I enjoy pvp on a mild scale in this game. Not a pvp hater at all.


I would agree with you on that premise but for the fact i see problems inherent with that.

1. I go to other pits to actually test things out, all the real action is in the lobster.
2. Going to another pit has failed miserably in the past because everyone ends up in the lobster'
3. I have already sat in another pit and no melees come around unnanounced however plenty of casters move around pits to see who they can greif.
4. posting an lfm about melee pvp and to go to another pit only invites casters unwittingly to your location so they can grief with DP.
5. The idea here is to still manage a fight with the pre U9 against casters even though it was unbalanced a melee still had a chance

DP is an awesome spell, albeit very powerful, and I would never ask to take it away from PVE - the solution is to simply block it out of pvp. to say otherwise means you either do not pvp enough to feel the effect it has in the pit or conversly are a caster yourself and enjoy its newfound uberness it has bestowed upon you and are refuting this for your own benefit.

another thing i do not get is people who do not pvp give all these obtuse responses and denounce why I am protesting it. if it doesnt effect their gameplay then why post against.
(this does not relate to you since you posted that you do pvp)

[justagame]

Will PvP be any better with Divine Punishment gone, though?

Even before U9, PvP was horribly unbalanced. Now it is just horribly unbalanced in favor of a slightly different set of classes.

Agreed. So what? So it's the latest tactic/spell/thing that owns pvp. In a mod or two it will be something else. Continually chasing "balance" in pvp is like a dog chasing his tail. Non-casters hated getting stoned. Casters hated AA's with ioun stones and slayer arrows. Then non-casters hated how the magic missile past life somehow defied protections. Now non-divines hate this. If the devs stopped to re-engineer things every time a class got ****ed off that another class had something that fared better in the pit, it would never end.

[Yajerman01]

Agreed. So what? So it's the latest tactic/spell/thing that owns pvp. In a mod or two it will be something else. Continually chasing "balance" in pvp is like a dog chasing his tail. Non-casters hated getting stoned. Casters hated AA's with ioun stones and slayer arrows. Then non-casters hated how the magic missile past life somehow defied protections. Now non-divines hate this. If the devs stopped to re-engineer things every time a class got ****ed off that another class had something that fared better in the pit, it would never end.

all the listed effects can be countered. Even in the past when a new spell came out, there was a way to work around it.

you cant work around this.

Damage mitigation is the key to surviving in the pit, whether its a full block counter or a resistant mitigator, DR, protection, etc, etc.

Let me ask you. do you PVP?

In fact everyone who wants to interject answer these questions first

1. Do you PVP (my classification is pvping more than once a week and mroe than 7 hours in a week. If so move to the next question
2. Do you have a caster that can cast DP? if yes, please refrain from opining unless you pvp alot, if not move to the next question
3. Do you have a melee that plays in the pit often enough to have encountered DP? if yes than I would like to hear your opinion.

[DrNuegebauer]

Question:

How good are favoured souls in PvP when before this spell? Where they the best class to play?

[Hendrik]

those all have saves attributed to them.

there is also a certain shield that will block dance / enchantment spells...

there still remains nothing to block the full force of DP - even after the caster dies.

And?

They still render melee useless, as per the line I was replying to.

[Yajerman01]

Question:

How good are favoured souls in PvP when before this spell? Where they the best class to play?


I think they are the best PVP class. Pre U9 they were beatable at least - now DP has given them a quasi god-mode

[Kabaon]

Two people agreeing on the removal of a DoT spell from PvP doesn't deem it to be true.

As you said yourself, there are ways to mitigate damage from offensive spells. There's ioun stones, spell absorbtion scarabs, even the Mantle of the Worldshaper. It's no one's fault but your own that you don't use these in game items to your advantage to mitigate the DoT, Arcane or Divine.

Personally I like the inclusion of the the new spells, even if DP kills me in two ticks (undead, deals about 200 dmg a tick, heals don't keep up). It gives you another option in an already limited place in the game. Well over half the arcane spells are blocked in the pit, and a nother good chunk are useless once you see people have Death Ward. And the Divine Casters have very little to work with as it is in the pit. If I remember correctly for offensive spells divines have what, Cometfall, Searing Light, Deific Vengence and now DP? And you want to limit it becuase of "fairness"?

Someone else posted in the forums about 3 or 4 pages back that the order of effectiveness in the pit is Divines>Arcanes>AA Rangers>Paladins>Monks>Other melees (I may have gotten that screwed up somewhere after Rangers), and I would tend to agree.

[Ziindarax]

Niacs biting cold and Eladar's electric surge needs to work EXACTLY like burning blood - limited range and be able to save against it. It's badly abused in PVP as "I win" buttons along-side Divine Punishment because there is nothing that can stop it, and most people don't have access to Pale Lavender Ioun Stones, or even Mantles for that matter (which burn out quickly btw).

If Divine punishment is worthy of being blocked because it's a no-save spell that can't really be stopped, then so should Niac's Biting Cold and Eladar's Electric Surge. Personally though, I just think these spells should be set up as to not be a "no-save" spell because the damage inflicted is much too high for something that can be stacked over and over. Granted, it's PvP so this thread will be largely ignored by the developers...

[The_Mighty_Cube]

This thread has gone on long enough. Players should be allowed to discuss suggestions to improve PvP in this section of the forums, as long as they are following the forum guidelines. Players should not be replying with off-topic statements, including statements that are nothing more than essentially "I don't like PvP." Personal attacks and the like are also not allowed, of course.

[Cordovan]

We'll let this thread be re-opened, but please be aware that off-topic discussions, personal attacks, arguments over who gave negative reputation to who, debates over whether someone is engaging in trolling, etc, will not be tolerated. If you feel a post violates the community guidelines, please report that post rather than respond to it. Thanks!

[protokon]

We'll let this thread be re-opened, but please be aware that off-topic discussions, personal attacks, arguments over who gave negative reputation to who, debates over whether someone is engaging in trolling, etc, will not be tolerated. If you feel a post violates the community guidelines, please report that post rather than respond to it. Thanks!

thanks cordovan!

so to start back off on the right foot...Divine Punishment. currently stacking it more than once really puts the hurt on *everyone* as a crit can easily bypass 600+ damage, even on a divine not specced with smiting.

OP's solution is to get rid of it. I love the spell in the pve environment as implemented, but currently your only defense against it in the pits is an ioun stone / mantle.

so possible solutions (referring to pvp pits ONLY, not PVE):
-disable it entirely
-no longer let it stack
-scale the damage

[Yajerman01]

thanks cordovan!

so to start back off on the right foot...Divine Punishment. currently stacking it more than once really puts the hurt on *everyone* as a crit can easily bypass 600+ damage, even on a divine not specced with smiting.

OP's solution is to get rid of it. I love the spell in the pve environment as implemented, but currently your only defense against it in the pits is an ioun stone / mantle.

so possible solutions (referring to pvp pits ONLY, not PVE):
-disable it entirely
-no longer let it stack
-scale the damage

I agree in part. I am afraid if it is scaled it will somehow effect indirectly aka by accident PVE; thusly my only solution would be to block it. There are other DOT's that might need blocking/minimizing, but I am focusing on the one that absolutely cannot be mitigated whatsoever at this time.

/signed in part - o wait, this is my thread! lol

[Hendrik]

Philarian Shield is a counter


Umm, how so?

http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/1397/batteredphiarlanshield.jpg

Only says Enchantment based SPELLS.

When did they make Bard Song a Spell?



:confused:

[Teen]

I think they are the best PVP class. Pre U9 they were beatable at least - now DP has given them a quasi god-mode

I think a sorc can keep up air sav spamming electric surge chain and ball lighting flying around. Water Savant Icy Prison+Polar Ray= Death. Fire Savant's Heat Death can do 1800 damage. Earth Savant cant do much besides earthgrab.

[heyytoi]

Umm, how so?

http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/1397/batteredphiarlanshield.jpg

Only says Enchantment based SPELLS.

When did they make Bard Song a Spell?



:confused:

Go and test it, you'l see

[fluffybunnywilson]

thanks cordovan!

so to start back off on the right foot...Divine Punishment. currently stacking it more than once really puts the hurt on *everyone* as a crit can easily bypass 600+ damage, even on a divine not specced with smiting.

OP's solution is to get rid of it. I love the spell in the pve environment as implemented, but currently your only defense against it in the pits is an ioun stone / mantle.

so possible solutions (referring to pvp pits ONLY, not PVE):
-disable it entirely
-no longer let it stack
-scale the damage

If an opponent can manage to land a single spell with a 10 second cooldown on you 3 times in a row, then they deserve to kill you. If you have a serious problem killing a FvS within 20-ish seconds, then your problem might be FvS wings and not Divine Punishment. Since wings are the most fun thing about the FvS class, I'd really hate to see them lose that in the PvP pits.

Also, I have little faith that changes made to the spell would only take place in the PvP pits, so I would prefer no changes to the spell itself - either inside the pits or outside. I would be disappopinted if the spell were turned off in PvP, but I would be disgusted to see the spell changed because of PvP.

Finally, I think that it's wrong for *ANY* class ability or spell to be disabled in PvP. I don't ask you to promise not to hit below the belt when you go into a bar fight. Why should your character be crippled in an area of DDO just because someone else can't beat you in a fight?

You say that it's not fair for Divine Punishment to work the way that it does in PvP. I say that it's not fair for all of the other spells and abilities that were turned off to NOT work in PvP.

Therigar came up with the only reason to turn off spells/abilities that I think is reasonable and that's just to make sure that PvP doesn't negatively impact PvE play by creating too much lag.

In general terms I agree with this sentiment.[edit - the sentiment that everything should be allowed to function in PvP]

But, in practical terms I have to object.

A serious issue with DDO is lag. It comes and it goes, but overall it is a continuing issue. And, a lot of the issue relates to resources spent on graphics.

Many of the spells that cannot be used are graphic intensive. We've all been in quests where two or three high graphics spells get cast and we've seen the lag kick in.

PvP has a vocal opposition now. If you were to have everything going in instances that are public instead of private you'd see even disinterested, live and let live players like me joining the opposition to PvP in DDO.

[heyytoi]

If an opponent can manage to land a single spell with a 10 second cooldown on you 3 times in a row, then they deserve to kill you. If you have a serious problem killing a FvS within 20-ish seconds, then your problem might be FvS wings and not Divine Punishment. Since wings are the most fun thing about the FvS class, I'd really hate to see them lose that in the PvP pits. Wings are not a problem in PvP since it slows you down. And by that i mean you can't heal while flying, you can't attack.. all you can do is fly. And while your flying i have plenty of time to cast spells on you. So really wings aren't a problem here.

Also, I have little faith that changes made to the spell would only take place in the PvP pits, so I would prefer no changes to the spell itself - either inside the pits or outside. I would be disappopinted if the spell were turned off in PvP, but I would be disgusted to see the spell changed because of PvP. Changing the spell for pvp would be a bad idea, blocking it otherwise would be great.

Finally, I think that it's wrong for *ANY* class ability or spell to be disabled in PvP. I don't ask you to promise not to hit below the belt when you go into a bar fight. Why should your character be crippled in an area of DDO just because someone else can't beat you in a fight? So your saying that we should be allowed to use FW/BB in the pits?? Thats pure madness.

You say that it's not fair for Divine Punishment to work the way that it does in PvP. I say that it's not fair for all of the other spells and abilities that were turned off to NOT work in PvP.

Therigar came up with the only reason to turn off spells/abilities that I think is reasonable and that's just to make sure that PvP doesn't negatively impact PvE play by creating too much lag.

sigh.

[fluffybunnywilson]

So your saying that we should be allowed to use FW/BB in the pits?? Thats pure madness.

Yep. Everything that doesn't actively hurt the PvE experience by adding significant lag to PvE players should be allowed.

It wouldn't be balanced, but that's okay. DDO already isn't balanced and it wouldn't be any *less* balanced if everything were allowed. It would just be unbalanced in a slightly different direction.

If people want PvP, then they should get PvP, not [83% of one P] vs. [74% of another P].

Either man up and fight with what you've got or get out of the pit. This is Sparta. Or Argonessen. Or Khyber. Or something...

[pie2655]

1. Yes i do PVP quite often
2. No i dont play a divine
3. Nope, i play a wizard in PVP usally.

Even though i play a wizard i really dislike DP. Its unfair as is and as ive said before really should go away on the casters death. Many time i killed the cleric/FVS and then i die from DP.
Also i agree with you Aluecian if people dont PVP regularly then their opinions on this subject arent as educated, and many times are incorrect.

[Habreno]

As I had said earlier, Divine Punishment can use a PvP "debuff" as it is admittedly OP. Even though a single stack cannot always kill a melee outright, a double stack almost invariably will. Let's once again do the math:

+40% from AP
+50% from Superior Potency VII on Epic Ornamented Dagger
+100% from Maximize
Crits:
2.5X multiplier from AP and Arcane Lore on Epic Ornamented Dagger
15% critical chance from AP and Arcane Lore on Epic Ornamented Dagger

1d6+CL is base damage
CL is 22 (Radiant Servant II, if I recall, affects healing/light spells. Will check this and do math with CL 20 and CL 22)

Damage: 23-28 base
X1.4 for APs = 32.2-39.2
X1.5 Superior Potency VII = 48.3-58.8
X2 Maximized = 96.6 (rounds to 97) - 117.6 (rounds to 118)
Average is 107.16666... times 8 ticks for 857.3333.... damage average. Excluding critical hits.

At 15% critical chance you have a crit once every 6.6666... casts (rounded to 7) for 2.5x damage. Criticals on casts range between 242.5 (rounds to 243) and 295 for a significant impact. Average is 268.3333... and with one crit, the average damage on a single stack is 1018.5 damage. With a single stack, and only one crit. Two crits means average damage per stack of 1182.6666... with a single stack. Sorry, but you can't heal through that much damage without Quicken. PM's can't inflict negative energy that fast, WF have difficult times repairing themselves quickly enough. On a single stack.

Albeit my numbers may account for extremes in certain values. But even at CL 20 (and I'm wrong about the Radiant Servant II caster levels and they do not affect light spells as well as healing spells) you have the following:

Damage: 21-26 base (CL 20)
X1.4 for APs = 29.4-36.4
X1.5 Superior Potency VII = 44.1-54.6
X2 Maximized = 88.2 (rounds to 88) - 109.2 (rounds to 109)
Average is 98.6666... with a full stack running 789.3333... damage without crits.

Critical average is between 220 and 272.5 (rounds to 273) for an average of 247 on crits.
Single stack with one crit: Average damage is 937.6666... with one crit in the stack and 1086 on a double crit stack.


Now you're asking why I bring the numbers up. You can double and triple those if your target survives. Max crits near 900 damage at once won't be uncommon. And this is assuming your target even survives long enough to reach that triple stack. Even if I am mistaken with RS II you can still see crits over 800 points.


I am all for a nerf in PvP but fear it may not do enough. And I am a LEVEL 20 CLERIC who does the occasional PvP and know how the spell works. I have cast it enough.


And AS LONG AS THE NERF DOES NOT AFFECT PvE, I am /signed on the nerf in PvP.



Think I may make another post later with unaffected numbers from smiting lines... maybe.

[fluffybunnywilson]

I don't have to run a Cleric up to cap to know that a single Cleric can solo heal a Shroud.
I don't have to run a Bard up to cap to know that sending someone with evasion to base 1 and following them with a Bard that's ready to fascinate the elementals is an easy way to take care of that base in eVoN6.
I don't have to run a Paladin up to cap to know that I don't have to ask a Paladin if they have DR breakers before letting them into a Shroud/VoD/ToD/ADQ (not that I ask people if they have DR breakers anyway).
I don't need to run a Wizard up to cap to know that Mind Fog + Mass Charm or Mass Hold are handy for some enemies and that Solid Fog + Web are handy for other enemies (and to know which enemies are which).

And I don't need to spend hours in the PvP pits to have an opinion on the fairness of PvP as it stands in DDO today. Your complaint centers entirely on the premise that Divine Punishment is an unfair advantage for Favored Souls (and Clerics, I'm assuming). My assertion is that balance in PvP is irrelevant because player skill > gear > build for both PvP and PvE and that there are many characters who couldn't survive more than a moment or two in the pits even if DP were outlawed in PvP.

Should we be balancing PvP to ensure that every Cleric 6/FvS 7/Sorc 7 can hold his head high because of his many triumphs in PvP? I say no. I say that you should strive to be the top of the heap based on what you can do with your characters. Not based on what you can do with *part* of your characters because too many people complained that one ability or another is too powerful for them to cope with.

[protokon]

as far as balancing goes:
-1 on 1 in the lobster will never be balanced. different classes have different strengths and abilities - casters can do an extreme amount of elemental damage in short duration, but have limited healing. melees are even more limited on healing, and are generally limited on the range of attacks (except for arcane archers). The strength of divines is the raw healing power they have at their disposal to keep themselves alive, while having poweful offensive spells that cannot be migitated by any kind of defense - with the exception of spell absorption, of course.

divine punishment, when stacked twice, is enough to kill most people because of how often the spell ticks damage (once every 2 seconds) and is near impossible to heal through, even as a divine spamming heals. I still believe there are only two solutions to make it fair:
-dont let it stack on other players. one cast does significant damage without being so overpowered it kills people by itself.
-kill the spell when the original caster dies. this keeps people from griefing other players by spamming it

then there is also the removal of the spell entirely. which seems like the simplest and easiest solution to the problem. divines still have a plethora of offensive spells at their disposal and are still extremely formidable, if not the best class in pvp.

[Habreno]

*snip*

divine punishment, when stacked twice, is enough to kill most people because of how often the spell ticks damage (once every 2 seconds) and is near impossible to heal through, even as a divine spamming heals. I still believe there are only two solutions to make it fair:
-dont let it stack on other players. one cast does significant damage without being so overpowered it kills people by itself.
-kill the spell when the original caster dies. this keeps people from griefing other players by spamming it

*snip*



/signed on both. See above math for how OP that spell can be.




*snip*

then there is also the removal of the spell entirely. which seems like the simplest and easiest solution to the problem. divines still have a plethora of offensive spells at their disposal and are still extremely formidable, if not the best class in pvp.

May be easiest, and sadly probably what they will go with, but we do not have *that* many good spells to work with. We divines usually heal your damage out and peck you down slowly, without the spell. While you may be seeing FvS with full specs in light hitting 300+ on Searing Light, it's probably a maxed crit with Maximize, Empower, and full AP with Superior Brilliance III potions/clicky. That's not common, usually it hits around 100.

[Yajerman01]

I don't have to run a Cleric up to cap to know that a single Cleric can solo heal a Shroud.
I don't have to run a Bard up to cap to know that sending someone with evasion to base 1 and following them with a Bard that's ready to fascinate the elementals is an easy way to take care of that base in eVoN6.
I don't have to run a Paladin up to cap to know that I don't have to ask a Paladin if they have DR breakers before letting them into a Shroud/VoD/ToD/ADQ (not that I ask people if they have DR breakers anyway).
I don't need to run a Wizard up to cap to know that Mind Fog + Mass Charm or Mass Hold are handy for some enemies and that Solid Fog + Web are handy for other enemies (and to know which enemies are which).

And I don't need to spend hours in the PvP pits to have an opinion on the fairness of PvP as it stands in DDO today. Your complaint centers entirely on the premise that Divine Punishment is an unfair advantage for Favored Souls (and Clerics, I'm assuming). My assertion is that balance in PvP is irrelevant because player skill > gear > build for both PvP and PvE and that there are many characters who couldn't survive more than a moment or two in the pits even if DP were outlawed in PvP. DP is a deal breaker it changes your concept of skill>gear>build - it makes Build>skill>gear. ANd yes you do need to know how spells effect the outcome in PVP and what classes are better able to withstand certain spells how saves adversley effect responses and how trip and stun are only effective and dependant on the opposing parties builds. Divine punishment is not unfair - its absurdity at a premium.



Should we be balancing PvP to ensure that every Cleric 6/FvS 7/Sorc 7 can hold his head high because of his many triumphs in PvP? I say no. I say that you should strive to be the top of the heap based on what you can do with your characters With DP you dont have to strive for anything. Not based on what you can do with *part* of your characters because too many people complained that one ability or another is too powerful for them to cope with. DP is too powerful for any class to cope with including FVS and CLerics


This argument is not about balancing PVP it is about keeping what little balance there was.

[fluffybunnywilson]

This argument is not about balancing PVP it is about keeping what little balance there was.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that this argument is about whether Turbine should remove Divine Power from PvP.

Balancing PvP or keeping what little balance there is in PvP is a different topic and I believe that you and I have different opinions on how "balance" should look in PvP.

[fluffybunnywilson]

As I had said earlier, Divine Punishment can use a PvP "debuff" as it is admittedly OP. Even though a single stack cannot always kill a melee outright, a double stack almost invariably will. Let's once again do the math:

A single Polar Ray from a moderately geared Wizard or Sorcerer will kill 90%+ of the characters on most servers even if the target has a full Protection from Cold + Resist Energy: Cold + Fire Shield: Hot.

And Polar Ray does it in a single tick.

[heyytoi]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that this argument is about whether Turbine should remove Divine Power from PvP.

Balancing PvP or keeping what little balance there is in PvP is a different topic and I believe that you and I have different opinions on how "balance" should look in PvP.

I didn't know that Divine Power was causing unblockable damage over time and that it should be removed in the pvp pits because it ruins the game experience?


A single Polar Ray from a moderately geared Wizard or Sorcerer will kill 90%+ of the characters on most servers even if the target has a full Protection from Cold + Resist Energy: Cold + Fire Shield: Hot.

And Polar Ray does it in a single tick.

Polar ray can be dodged. You can't dodge Divine Punishement.

[Yajerman01]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that this argument is about whether Turbine should remove Divine Power from PvP.

Balancing PvP or keeping what little balance there is in PvP is a different topic and I believe that you and I have different opinions on how "balance" should look in PvP.


I am the OP, im sure i Know what im talking about. Blocking DP in the PVP area will keep what little balance we had.

[protokon]

A single Polar Ray from a moderately geared Wizard or Sorcerer will kill 90%+ of the characters on most servers even if the target has a full Protection from Cold + Resist Energy: Cold + Fire Shield: Hot.

And Polar Ray does it in a single tick.

funny, my cleric has all those things and polar ray only tickles him.

all elemental damage can be migitated to the point where it will no longer 1-shot people, even meteor swarm which is a combination of bludgeon + fire damage can be made survivable.

there is nothing that will save you from DP, especially once its cast.

[protokon]

You absolutely are the Original Poster, but if you go back and read the Original Post that created this thread, it is about the removal of a single spell. Now, you assert that blocking DP will bring balance to the Force, but I disagree.


http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/5/23/129191167327639169.jpg


/end of derail

[pie2655]

Honestly DP is much worse than Power Word: X. Because it is unblockable, i am all for any way to *cough* nerf *cough* it in PVP

[fluffybunnywilson]

People who actually PVP have cardinal knowledge of how detrimental DP is as a whole in the PVP arena. You fail to ackowledge this.

I absolutely acknowledge that people who spend 7 hours per week or more (your requirements for posting in this thread if I recall correctly) have direct knowledge of how DP is detrimental to the way that they want to play PvP.

That doesn't mean that the way that you (or they) want to play PvP is the "correct" way to play PvP. There are other balances that can (and I think *should*) be struck in order to make PvP "better". I absolutely acknowledge that my idea of "better" does not match your idea of "better". I am disappointed that you refuse to accept that I can have different goals for PvP and still have a valid point of view, but I am not at all surprised by that.


therefore, there is nothing else to discuss with you because you are not objective about this whatsoever. I refuse to continue down this path of futility with you.

I never claimed to be objective about this. I reject the entire premise upon which your argument is based. You want PvP to be balanced. I don't. I want PvP to be a reflection of what classes in DDO can do. The classes in DDO are not tweaked for balance based on what they can do to each other. They are balanced based on what they can do to opponents in PvE DDO. I think that is entirely right and justified and correct.



EDIT. However I do appreciate you keeping this post alive for more people to review. I think there was some sound arguments on both sides but ultimately people who PVP will generally concur with the OP. DP needs to be mitigated for PVP ONLY or if that requires too much coding then blocking it like they do other spells would be the direction of choice.

In the end NO ONE CLASS can handle/heal/mitigate or work through Divine Punishment making this spell one of the most overly powered spells int he PVP arena.

If you change that last line to "NO ONE CLASS has yet figured out how to handle/heal/mitigate or work through Divine Punishment" then I would agree with you 100%. And I think that neither your last line, nor my suggested change to your last line is actually a problem.

[PeWBOOMPeW]

Heh, me and soulo were bored one night. We spent awhile figuring out the MAX possible for DP.
It's a bit scary...
9127.2

Triple stack crit with
-Vampire Form
-Irians Light from Mabar
-Max/Emp/Enhancements
-Archmage ToD crit set
-Not positive if this one is possible, but helpless for the extra 50%

-Gisty

[heyytoi]

Anyway

/signed

Remove DP (caster version included) from the pits.

[TheDjinnFor]

The problem is not that Divine Punishment is overpowered in PvP, its that it is overpowered in general.

DoT, no-save, unavoidable, unblockable, 1000+ total damage spells should not exist in the game, period. Yes, you can get the same utility with, say, firewall, but that's only against dumb PvE mobs (a real human being would not sit in it and die). You can crit for something much higher with Polar Ray, but that's only against dumb PvE mobs (a real human being makes aiming ray spells wildly impractical until you can otherwise stop them from moving).

[justagame]

The problem is not that Divine Punishment is overpowered in PvP, its that it is overpowered in general.

DoT, no-save, unavoidable, unblockable, 1000+ total damage spells should not exist in the game, period. Yes, you can get the same utility with, say, firewall, but that's only against dumb PvE mobs (a real human being would not sit in it and die). You can crit for something much higher with Polar Ray, but that's only against dumb PvE mobs (a real human being makes aiming ray spells wildly impractical until you can otherwise stop them from moving).

Not only can you crit higher with polar ray, it's a single shot. It takes much more mana (stacked castings), and time, to get the DP damage people are talking about. I couldn't disagree more. Even with DP in the game, arcanes massively outdamage divines, it's not even close. Yet, this is called OP.

[protokon]

Not only can you crit higher with polar ray, it's a single shot. It takes much more mana (stacked castings), and time, to get the DP damage people are talking about. I couldn't disagree more. Even with DP in the game, arcanes massively outdamage divines, it's not even close. Yet, this is called OP.

Have to agree with this. considering the SP consumption to stack it 3 times, and to maintain it, the spell works in PVE nicely. PVP is what we are concerned with.

[fluffybunnywilson]

have To Agree With This. Considering The Sp Consumption To Stack It 3 Times, And To Maintain It, The Spell Works In Pve Nicely. Pvp Is What We Are Concerned With.

Ban Polar Ray!

[protokon]

Ban Polar Ray!

polar ray can be dodged, and/or mitigated. DP can't.

[badbob117]

If they ban it in the tavern for pvp players then it may come back to haunt all the divines next festival. Think about it. almost any spell that is not allowed in tavern brawls is not allowed in the festival wilderness. That will suck if we don't have Dp in any future fests. kinda like how we do not have blade barrier.

I could care less about pvp. if banning it improves everyones fun then so be it. but as long as it does not effect the 95 % of players who do not pvp.

[Kambuk]

Best solution is to have a melee only PvP pit, one under the effects of a beholder anti-magic aura all the time.

Kambuk

[Pape_27]

polar ray can be dodged, and/or mitigated. DP can't.

DP can be stopped by an ioun stone.

[AtomicMew]

Best solution is to have a melee only PvP pit, one under the effects of a beholder anti-magic aura all the time.

Kambuk

Or private PvP instances, like every other game!

[pie2655]

Best solution is to have a melee only PvP pit, one under the effects of a beholder anti-magic aura all the time.

Kambuk

DP sucks for arcanes to, I kill the FVS/Cleric then die afterwards from DP or it just kills me before i cna kill then sinc eit cna crit for over 500+ and cant be blocked with resists and such.

[fluffybunnywilson]

polar ray can be dodged, and/or mitigated. DP can't.

You haven't yet figured out how to deal with Divine Punishment. That's not the same thing as what you're claiming, though.

[heyytoi]

You haven't yet figured out how to deal with Divine Punishment. That's not the same thing as what you're claiming, though.

Have you?

[Ziindarax]

Not only can you crit higher with polar ray, it's a single shot. It takes much more mana (stacked castings), and time, to get the DP damage people are talking about. I couldn't disagree more. Even with DP in the game, arcanes massively outdamage divines, it's not even close. Yet, this is called OP.

Add, also, the fact that Arcane casters get TWO elemental versions of DP that each stack three times, and can both be used on top of each other without chance to save, dodge, or counter it (short of Pale Lavender Ioun stones, which almost never drop). It's funny how people scream "NERF DP IT'S OVER POWERED!!!", yet they seem to ignore the elemental versions of this spell that arcane casters get.

If DP should be nerfed/removed, so should Niac's Biting cold, and Eladar's electric surge.

[protokon]

You haven't yet figured out how to deal with Divine Punishment. That's not the same thing as what you're claiming, though.

huh?

I use an ioun stone so DP spammers dont bother me...

it's still overpowered and shouldnt be allowed.

you keep bringing this exact same point up, and im trying to understand why. spell absorption is the only form of protection from it, there are many forms of protection versus a polar ray.

what exactly are you getting at here, that post-u9 people should just all have ioun stones?


Add, also, the fact that Arcane casters get TWO elemental versions of DP that each stack three times, and can both be used on top of each other without chance to save, dodge, or counter it (short of Pale Lavender Ioun stones, which almost never drop). It's funny how people scream "NERF DP IT'S OVER POWERED!!!", yet they seem to ignore the elemental versions of this spell that arcane casters get.

If DP should be nerfed/removed, so should Niac's Biting cold, and Eladar's electric surge.

agreed, as made said a few times the arcane DOT's should be lumped in with this.

[TheDjinnFor]

It takes much more mana (stacked castings), and time, to get the DP damage people are talking about.

No, it takes one casting. Really. Any class that can't self heal very well is dead on one casting, guaranteed. Any class that can needs to be constantly spamming heals to stay full because one crit will kill them. It's like Arcane Archers: all they have to do is target you, hold down the left mouse button, and wait for a Slayer arrow to proc. But AAs can't get a quarter of the DPS of a DP unless they're manyshotting, which is why (although they are a really strong class for it) AAs are not the be all and end all of PvP. And of course AAs must maintain LoS constantly whereas a DP just needs to hit once.

Compared to Polar Ray, it's much harder to avoid; blocking LoS is your only real hope if you don't have all kinds of spell absorption charges.


If DP should be nerfed/removed, so should Niac's Biting cold, and Eladar's electric surge.

Fully agreed (but that's really for a different thread). Of course, those spells aren't nearly as bad since elemental resists/protections for them exist and can prevent a lot of damage.

[donfilibuster]

Have a barmaid sell sun lotion.

[hityawithastick]

Have a barmaid sell sun lotion.

This. Not everyone uses DP...just don't @#$% off divine casters. ;)

[Yajerman01]

This. Not everyone uses DP...just don't @#$% off divine casters. ;)

Everyone uses DP in the PVP arena, its just a matter of when they "choose" to use it. Not ****ing Divines off in PVP is like saying Arnold Schwarzenegger doesnt fool around with House staff. PVP is kill or be killed mentality with few mutual respects for another player.

[MrChipinator]

I'm in Thelanis with Al, and I enjoy PvP because you learn from it. It's made me a much better caster, instead of just sitting there hoping to heal quick enough with Death Aura, I now know how to run like Forrest Gump. But the problem lies not in the spells, but in the jerks who cast them. Seeing as you can't fix dumb/jerk, the next best step is to remove the spells. DoT's in theory were a good idea, but the problem is that Divine Punishment is unblockable. (assume no Spell-Absorbtion). Any of the FvS/Cleric light-based or good based spells cannot be blocked. You can't cast Resist: Holy or Resist: Light, so their spell will do unblockable damage, and to melees, who can't heal except a 30 HP pot every few seconds, that isn't fair.

Along with the new 5,000 Lightning Savant sorcs who also spam Eledar's, there just seems to be no rhyme or reason to PvP anymore.

It is my opinion that you should allow players with respectable personalities to assume control or VOTE on PvP, since you guys don't seem to put forth the effort into controlling it. (not insulting)

[Truga]

Every single spell should be enabled. There, I said it.

Also mass charm should make people search for a rope and hang themselves off the ladders in lobster. Do this please.

[Forzah]

Divine punishment also takes 10 charges of an ioun stone, while it is a lvl 5 spell. What's the deal with that?

P.s. I've already suggested a lot of these things recently.

[ThePrincipal]

DP is exactly what Divines needed, in pve and pvp alike.

Just today I'm in the pit with my lvl 18 dwarf melee/strbased pure cleric. its really slow noone in the pit. A 20 elf AA jumps down and we size each other up. i'm up front near the ladder and he takes the back row. i switch out my greataxe for a mith tower shield and potency scepter, just for such an occasion, and switch on the aura. no action. ok fine, i hang out for another minute, bored, decide to leave. boom, ganked with a slayer arrow on the ladder.

ok heal up, buff up, ac gear on, quicken/max/empowerheal on, jump down and i'm greeted with a barrage of manyshot. i turtle up. ac is 52 blocking. about 1/3 of the shots miss the rest deal maybe 1-5 damage after shield dr. he cant get passed my aura, no damage is taken. he's bouncing laterally along the back edge but im still relaxed, dont move, just blocking waiting for my window. out of nowhere i'm stunned. keeping the block on, i spin around, and see some 20 monk just stunned me while jumping off the ledge from behind. so he's start tee'ing off on my face while i'm getting arrows in the back. i'm blocking, aura is going, but i'm taking damage. down to about 1/2 life when the stun wears off, i immediately blast the monk with Divine Punishment and turtle back up. One tick takes half his life. I know he's done for so I turn back to the AA. I hit myself with a Heal, back to full, back behind the shield. Monk is punching me in the back, second tick, he's a ghost.

AA still jumping around in the back. I think manyshot is down. Hard to tell since I'm still seeing all sorta of combat scroll up my screen which I know some is from the dead monk still. I fire off a Harm + Cometfall in quick succession. The smoke clears, he's still standing, but he's at maybe 10% life. He bounds towards me, still shooting. I know he's going for the ledge. I get off a Divine Punishment as he closes in. Boom, dead on the first tick. He immediately logs off.

I climb the ladder. Ask the monk if he wants to go one-on-one. He declines.

I LOVE DIVINE PUNISHMENT

[Chai]

Everyone uses DP in the PVP arena, its just a matter of when they "choose" to use it. Not ****ing Divines off in PVP is like saying Arnold Schwarzenegger doesnt fool around with House staff. PVP is kill or be killed mentality with few mutual respects for another player.

Which is why I dont understand the nerf requests, or the cheap tactic claims. The best and most simple way to put PVP into this game is to make it no holds barred. The people who take it seriously will build for what is good, and understand the gear / tactics they want to farm for in order to control situations. If the nerf requests are honored the only thing that changes is "what works" - but the fact that people will still gravitate to the most OP thing does not change. We then see more nerf requests to change the next thing people gravitate to.

If PVP is more team oriented we would see less gripes about single OP abilities of one class / build. You said it yourself: PVP is kill or be killed mentality with few mutual respects for another player. This will not change by removing DP. There are ways to change this, but all removing DP will do is make the #2 OP ability now #1.

[TheDjinnFor]

DP is exactly what Divines needed, in pve and pvp alike.

Just today I'm in the pit with my lvl 18 dwarf melee/strbased pure cleric. its really slow noone in the pit. A 20 elf AA jumps down and we size each other up. i'm up front near the ladder and he takes the back row. i switch out my greataxe for a mith tower shield and potency scepter, just for such an occasion, and switch on the aura. no action. ok fine, i hang out for another minute, bored, decide to leave. boom, ganked with a slayer arrow on the ladder.

ok heal up, buff up, ac gear on, quicken/max/empowerheal on, jump down and i'm greeted with a barrage of manyshot. i turtle up. ac is 52 blocking. about 1/3 of the shots miss the rest deal maybe 1-5 damage after shield dr. he cant get passed my aura, no damage is taken. he's bouncing laterally along the back edge but im still relaxed, dont move, just blocking waiting for my window. out of nowhere i'm stunned. keeping the block on, i spin around, and see some 20 monk just stunned me while jumping off the ledge from behind. so he's start tee'ing off on my face while i'm getting arrows in the back. i'm blocking, aura is going, but i'm taking damage. down to about 1/2 life when the stun wears off, i immediately blast the monk with Divine Punishment and turtle back up. One tick takes half his life. I know he's done for so I turn back to the AA. I hit myself with a Heal, back to full, back behind the shield. Monk is punching me in the back, second tick, he's a ghost.

AA still jumping around in the back. I think manyshot is down. Hard to tell since I'm still seeing all sorta of combat scroll up my screen which I know some is from the dead monk still. I fire off a Harm + Cometfall in quick succession. The smoke clears, he's still standing, but he's at maybe 10% life. He bounds towards me, still shooting. I know he's going for the ledge. I get off a Divine Punishment as he closes in. Boom, dead on the first tick. He immediately logs off.

I climb the ladder. Ask the monk if he wants to go one-on-one. He declines.

I LOVE DIVINE PUNISHMENT

So your argument in favor of DP essentially boils down to "Incompetent buffoons who don't know how to PvP at all desperately need DP to cover up for their gigantic deficiencies in combat." You should have killed the AA as soon as it landed using a quickened cometfall to knock it down and then and then cycling through searing light, harm, and nimbus of light to instantly kill it (or cometfall it again just in case). Then you do the exact same thing to the monk. No DP need, you insta-win any PvP match unless cometfall misses.

In hindsight... this is a joke post right? A troll? One of those fake stories that people post to bait someone into going into a long rant?


If PVP is more team oriented we would see less gripes about single OP abilities of one class / build. You said it yourself: PVP is kill or be killed mentality with few mutual respects for another player. This will not change by removing DP. There are ways to change this, but all removing DP will do is make the #2 OP ability now #1.

True, but I still killed people with my non-PvP specced dwarf barbarian pre-U9. You can gank most anything pretty easily once you trip/stun them. The problem with DP now is that if they look at you, you're dead.

[fluffybunnywilson]

So your argument in favor of DP essentially boils down to "Incompetent buffoons who don't know how to PvP at all desperately need DP to cover up for their gigantic deficiencies in combat."

This doesn't sound all that different than "Incompetent buffons who don't know how to PvP at all desperately need Turbine to ban DP to cover up for their gigantic deviciencies in combat."

potayto/potahto

[protokon]

This doesn't sound all that different than "Incompetent buffons who don't know how to PvP at all desperately need Turbine to ban DP to cover up for their gigantic deviciencies in combat."

potayto/potahto

cometfall has a save, for both the trip and the damage. DP does not.

I am feeling like a broken record player when bringing this point up over, and over, and over...

[Thesoulgazer]

DP is exactly what Divines needed, in pve and pvp alike.

Just today I'm in the pit with my lvl 18 dwarf melee/strbased pure cleric. its really slow noone in the pit. A 20 elf AA jumps down and we size each other up. i'm up front near the ladder and he takes the back row. i switch out my greataxe for a mith tower shield and potency scepter, just for such an occasion, and switch on the aura. no action. ok fine, i hang out for another minute, bored, decide to leave. boom, ganked with a slayer arrow on the ladder.

ok heal up, buff up, ac gear on, quicken/max/empowerheal on, jump down and i'm greeted with a barrage of manyshot. i turtle up. ac is 52 blocking. about 1/3 of the shots miss the rest deal maybe 1-5 damage after shield dr. he cant get passed my aura, no damage is taken. he's bouncing laterally along the back edge but im still relaxed, dont move, just blocking waiting for my window. out of nowhere i'm stunned. keeping the block on, i spin around, and see some 20 monk just stunned me while jumping off the ledge from behind. so he's start tee'ing off on my face while i'm getting arrows in the back. i'm blocking, aura is going, but i'm taking damage. down to about 1/2 life when the stun wears off, i immediately blast the monk with Divine Punishment and turtle back up. One tick takes half his life. I know he's done for so I turn back to the AA. I hit myself with a Heal, back to full, back behind the shield. Monk is punching me in the back, second tick, he's a ghost.

AA still jumping around in the back. I think manyshot is down. Hard to tell since I'm still seeing all sorta of combat scroll up my screen which I know some is from the dead monk still. I fire off a Harm + Cometfall in quick succession. The smoke clears, he's still standing, but he's at maybe 10% life. He bounds towards me, still shooting. I know he's going for the ledge. I get off a Divine Punishment as he closes in. Boom, dead on the first tick. He immediately logs off.

I climb the ladder. Ask the monk if he wants to go one-on-one. He declines.

I LOVE DIVINE PUNISHMENT

All that tells us is that DP allowed you to (rather easily, it seems) defeat two people your level or higher.

[Chai]

True, but I still killed people with my non-PvP specced dwarf barbarian pre-U9. You can gank most anything pretty easily once you trip/stun them. The problem with DP now is that if they look at you, you're dead.

How many classes is this true for? How far does that rabbithole go?

I vote for making all abilities available.

If we nerf the number one thing on the power ladder, something else becomes the most OP ability that people can barely beat. Nothing really changes except for which class / build / spell / ability is the most OP. The majority of those that take PVP seriously and use it alot will gravitate to those things, regardless of what they are. Removing DP doesnt change this, it just changes what the most OP ability is.

[TheDjinnFor]

Removing DP doesnt change this, it just changes what the most OP ability is.

But if the most OP ability is marginally better than the classic melee trip+beatdown tactic, then it makes some sense to bring along barbarians in PvP scenarios in both individual and group play. If one ability is so overpowering that three uses of it will take out three characters guaranteed unless they are doing the same thing to you or doing nothing but healing, then it eliminates most alternate classes and strategies from competing. If an ability is marginally better and poses a potent threat, then it will probably end up dominating much of PvP; the important difference, however, is that alternative strategies and techniques are still useful because the surprise factor inherent in facing an unfamiliar or unorthodox tactic and the skill of the player using the technique is often enough to overcome the dominant strategy. The hidden ball trick still works when used on occasion...

A fast moving, high HP, decent saves, DPS melee character is fairly valuable in a mop-up scenario during team PvP. It means casters can focus on CC without having to worry about finishing things off, and their speedy melee friend can swoop in to make the finishing blows or protect a downed ally. They draw a lot more attention since they fight up close and personal and will distract a player long enough for another ally to take free pot shots.

Cometfall is one of those OP yet not to OP things: much, much easier to hit somebody with (and even multiple foes), probably easier to save than a raged barb trip though, and still 100% avoidable by a good melee player who has zero gear whatsoever. Potent, but not so overpowering that it removes all strategies.

(Although against complete idiots like an AA that stands around staring at you all day and a monk that can barely do enough DPS to take you to half health in 6 seconds it is effectively an encounter ender).

[Chai]

But if the most OP ability is marginally better than the classic melee trip+beatdown tactic, then it makes some sense to bring along barbarians in PvP scenarios in both individual and group play. If one ability is so overpowering that three uses of it will take out three characters guaranteed unless they are doing the same thing to you or doing nothing but healing, then it eliminates most alternate classes and strategies from competing. If an ability is marginally better and poses a potent threat, then it will probably end up dominating much of PvP; the important difference, however, is that alternative strategies and techniques are still useful because the surprise factor inherent in facing an unfamiliar or unorthodox tactic and the skill of the player using the technique is often enough to overcome the dominant strategy. The hidden ball trick still works when used on occasion...

A fast moving, high HP, decent saves, DPS melee character is fairly valuable in a mop-up scenario during team PvP. It means casters can focus on CC without having to worry about finishing things off, and their speedy melee friend can swoop in to make the finishing blows or protect a downed ally. They draw a lot more attention since they fight up close and personal and will distract a player long enough for another ally to take free pot shots.

Cometfall is one of those OP yet not to OP things: much, much easier to hit somebody with (and even multiple foes), probably easier to save than a raged barb trip though, and still 100% avoidable by a good melee player who has zero gear whatsoever. Potent, but not so overpowering that it removes all strategies.

(Although against complete idiots like an AA that stands around staring at you all day and a monk that can barely do enough DPS to take you to half health in 6 seconds it is effectively an encounter ender).

I agree, but I ask questions like "how far does that rabbithole go" because there are quite a few OP abilities. I could name quite a few of them but we would be getting further and further off topic debating each one. Im sure you know what they all are, and which ones are pretty much the "you have no chance once this is used on you" style ability. If DP gets nerfed, one of those other abilities now becomes the single most used "cheap undefeatable tactic" - Do we then ask for them all to be nerfed? Be careful what we ask for. PVP might become pretty vanilla if this trends alot and we ask for removal of everything that we cant immediately counter.

I think its a legit question to ask, and I also dont think its easily answerable. We may think a non DP PVP pit is the best thing since sliced bread until we are under the effect of song of capering, or the next update comes out and someone has a new toy to play with, and now FvS is number 2 on the charts instead of number 1.

It would be nice if there was a way to counter it, as long as it doesnt trivialize DP. FvS gets new toy, then has it taken away because it makes loud noises, heh.

[Yajerman01]

"cheap undefeatable tactic"

I think this is the sweet spot for my argument. Every other spell currently in use in the PVP arena gives you an opportunity to either evade, mitigate or save against. There is no current implementation to do any of the foregoing with DP in of itself.

I do not agree with the all or none theory because prior to U9, even though PVP was unbalanced and casters and clerics were the dominate classes, they were in effect ownign everything for the most part prior to DP (as they should); however on the same token, the better melee pvper's would be able to also counter and win against casters if they slacked off for a second.

Now a caster merely has to target you and not even look at you in order to counter. DP gives total and complete control of the floor. SO now melees have no chance. But more importantly now casters who actually have skill in the arena are getting owned by casters with no qualitive skill. It has made all casters =; Its like when Colt came out with his revolver - all calsses were created different DP made them equal. DP is inherently bad for pvp because it takes any skill and gear out of the equation and makes the spell in of itself the dominate feature.

BLocking it from pvp would be optimum because im against fiddeling with its power incase it effects PVE.

I simply hope Turbine weighs in on the effect DP has and how its pretty much made the brawlign pit a deserted town full of clerics/with scant arcanes

[fluffybunnywilson]

I think this is the sweet spot for my argument. Every other spell currently in use in the PVP arena gives you an opportunity to either evade, mitigate or save against. There is no current implementation to do any of the foregoing with DP in of itself.

I do not agree with the all or none theory because prior to U9, even though PVP was unbalanced and casters and clerics were the dominate classes, they were in effect ownign everything for the most part prior to DP (as they should); however on the same token, the better melee pvper's would be able to also counter and win against casters if they slacked off for a second.

Now a caster merely has to target you and not even look at you in order to counter. DP gives total and complete control of the floor. SO now melees have no chance. But more importantly now casters who actually have skill in the arena are getting owned by casters with no qualitive skill. It has made all casters =; Its like when Colt came out with his revolver - all calsses were created different DP made them equal. DP is inherently bad for pvp because it takes any skill and gear out of the equation and makes the spell in of itself the dominate feature.

BLocking it from pvp would be optimum because im against fiddeling with its power incase it effects PVE.

I simply hope Turbine weighs in on the effect DP has and how its pretty much made the brawlign pit a deserted town full of clerics/with scant arcanes

If you are successful in your campaign to get DP banned and you get your wish to have Sorcerers' DoT spells disabled or nerfed, what spells or abilities will you go after next?

[Yajerman01]

If you are successful in your campaign to get DP banned and you get your wish to have Sorcerers' DoT spells disabled or nerfed, what spells or abilities will you go after next?

none- I am not an advocate to eliminating every spell for my own wishes. Pre U9 was hard enough but palletable. I actually liked how difficult it was as a melee preU9.

As I have always stated Casters and clerics alike should rule the roost, the very few melee with the skill gear and counters were the only ones able to withstand and keep other melee hopeful in there pvp quest to challenge them.

DP/DOT's not only ruin that ability for melees but eliminate it for every caster/cleric in genocide fashion. I hear more and more complaints from the very casters that have these powers because even though they started to enjoy these new found powers in PVP they also see how damaging they are amongsts themselves.

Its quasi-suicide to drop down as a melee and as a caster/divine now.

[hityawithastick]

I think this is the sweet spot for my argument. Every other spell currently in use in the PVP arena gives you an opportunity to either evade, mitigate or save against. There is no current implementation to do any of the foregoing with DP in of itself.

I do not agree with the all or none theory because prior to U9, even though PVP was unbalanced and casters and clerics were the dominate classes, they were in effect ownign everything for the most part prior to DP (as they should); however on the same token, the better melee pvper's would be able to also counter and win against casters if they slacked off for a second.

Now a caster merely has to target you and not even look at you in order to counter. DP gives total and complete control of the floor. SO now melees have no chance. But more importantly now casters who actually have skill in the arena are getting owned by casters with no qualitive skill. It has made all casters =; Its like when Colt came out with his revolver - all calsses were created different DP made them equal. DP is inherently bad for pvp because it takes any skill and gear out of the equation and makes the spell in of itself the dominate feature.

BLocking it from pvp would be optimum because im against fiddeling with its power incase it effects PVE.

I simply hope Turbine weighs in on the effect DP has and how its pretty much made the brawlign pit a deserted town full of clerics/with scant arcanes

I dunno what pit you're in, but over here on Khyber we're keeping it real. None of those new "sissy's Biting DoT" spells for us. As for mitigation: just chow down before you go after a divine caster. Regenning 54 hp/3 secs gives more than enough time to mow down a cleric, and trying to chase down a FvS with a melee is challenging anyway (to say the least). Not to mention that all three of the new spells can be removed with Break Enchantment or a straight dispel.

Personally I'm against blocking anything in PvP. I'd love to be able to drop firewalls, plant symbols, summon minions*, hurl disjunctions.

*Summoned minions could be dealt with by having them just "dismiss" when their controller is killed or leaves the area. The tech for that is present...I took a skeletal minion into one of the Catacombs quests, ran through a big ring of light and....oops, no more minion.

[ThePrincipal]

All that tells us is that DP allowed you to (rather easily, it seems) defeat two people your level or higher. /Quote

Yep basically. Which is why its fine the way it is. Isnt that wha this thread is this all about. If you are divine you love it, if youre not you hate it. Its not about balance, because without this single spell, pvp isnt balanced either. So it's just about which flavor of the month is OP.

PS cometfall didnt trip the ranger in my battle. smoke cleared and he was still standing, literally standing up. my guy is a battlecleric with horrible dc's vs an evasion class... which makes DP that much better that it has no save. even if he had deathward for the harm, he would have died on the ledge with DP ticking away.

[heyytoi]

All that tells us is that DP allowed you to (rather easily, it seems) defeat two people your level or higher. /Quote

Yep basically. Which is why its fine the way it is. Isnt that wha this thread is this all about. If you are divine you love it, if youre not you hate it. Its not about balance, because without this single spell, pvp isnt balanced either. So it's just about which flavor of the month is OP.

PS cometfall didnt trip the ranger in my battle. smoke cleared and he was still standing, literally standing up. my guy is a battlecleric with horrible dc's vs an evasion class... which makes DP that much better that it has no save. even if he had deathward for the harm, he would have died on the ledge with DP ticking away.

I mostly use a divine in PvP and i hate DP.

[Hendrik]

If you are successful in your campaign to get DP banned and you get your wish to have Sorcerers' DoT spells disabled or nerfed, what spells or abilities will you go after next?

The next one that kills him.

;)

[krackythehoodedone]

Whats all the fuss about about.

Its a usless spell with no damage. Turbine should double its power at the very least.

And whilst they're at it........................

[TheDjinnFor]

Regenning 54 hp/3 secs gives more than enough time to mow down a cleric, and trying to chase down a FvS with a melee is challenging anyway (to say the least).

Rule number one about tavern food: you do not talk about tavern food. Giving out trade secrets like that for free... not cool brah.

/sadpanda

Edit: Neg repped for humor? I'm touched...

[hityawithastick]

Rule number one about tavern food: you do not talk about tavern food. Giving out trade secrets like that for free... not cool brah.

/sadpanda

But but think of the children! All the toons that didn't build for self healing! :eek:

[Habreno]

Whats all the fuss about about.

Its a usless spell with no damage. Turbine should double its power at the very least.

And whilst they're at it........................

Unless you're being sarcastic (which you may be and I'm failing the /sarcasam roll), the spell does not need a buff. Seriously. Calculating damage, I have values (dependent on buffs, AP, gear, and metas) on single-stacks of between 100 and 200, average, not including best-case-sceneario which is 1.4x from AP's, 2.5 from meta's, 2 from Eardweller, and 1.2 (if I recall) from FvS PrE. That combination (cast by a Cleric with Greater Might of the Abashi (epic Might of the Abashi set with Radiant Servant II for a 25 Caster Level) can crit for almost 2000 damage, fully maxed, with 700+ normal ticks. And that's not even including any sort of Arcane Lore above, well, standard Arcane Lore. If there's a Lore out there which gives more than a .25x multiplier on any spell, or divine/light spells, you can add, probably, 150+ more damage.

What needs to happen is you need to spend some effort at the spell to make it useful, but if you do it's great. If not, you'll see *maybe* 50-100 a tick. You have to actually put effort into the spell, to make it work.

BEFORE ANYONE SAYS anything about me missing the point of the quoted post, read the bolded print.

[hityawithastick]

Yeah I think it's Sarcasm...don't forget to swap out your Haggle item... :D

[Hendrik]

So;

Purge the Pantheon will stop Divines from Casting.


There. Now you have a way to block DP in PvP.

Go get one and stop complaining.

[heyytoi]

So;

Purge the Pantheon will stop Divines from Casting.


There. Now you have a way to block DP in PvP.

Go get one and stop complaining.

You cant use this cliky in the Pit.

[Pape_27]

none-

Until another new little sumthin sumthin comes along and changes your mind about that none... then its back to the boards...


_

[Habreno]

Yeah I think it's Sarcasm...don't forget to swap out your Haggle item... :D

Which is why I added the bolded part. I couldn't tell at whatever time I wrote that what it was.

On second note, still /signed on removal of DP from PVP. And I am still a level 20 Cleric.

[BitkaCK2]

Alrighty, at the risk of neg rep I'm going to toss out my 2c. Now I'm one of those pesky anti-PvPers and yes, I'm in your thread with an opinion.

Here we go, in my opinion the ONLY time a spell or ability should be blocked in the pit is if it can be used to grief another player. Period. End of Line. No ifs, ands or b-b-buts. I believe this was the case with certain spells that would immobilize players without killing them thus keeping them from leaving the pit area. Getting killed by a spell or ability in the pit is not being grieved. Some spells have saves others do not. That's the way it goes. The pit isn't supposed to be fair or balanced. It's an afterthought tossed in for killing time. I'm sorry if you keep getting dead in there but again, getting killed in the pit is not the same as being grieved.

I'll say it again, if a spell isn't being used to grief players there is no need to block it.

Just my 2c,
bitkaCK2

[hityawithastick]

Alrighty, at the risk of neg rep I'm going to toss out my 2c. Now I'm one of those pesky anti-PvPers and yes, I'm in your thread with an opinion.

Here we go, in my opinion the ONLY time a spell or ability should be blocked in the pit is if it can be used to grief another player. Period. End of Line. No ifs, ands or b-b-buts. I believe this was the case with certain spells that would immobilize players without killing them thus keeping them from leaving the pit area. Getting killed by a spell or ability in the pit is not being grieved. Some spells have saves others do not. That's the way it goes. The pit isn't supposed to be fair or balanced. It's an afterthought tossed in for killing time. I'm sorry if you keep getting dead in there but again, getting killed in the pit is not the same as being grieved.

I'll say it again, if a spell isn't being used to grief players there is no need to block it.

Just my 2c,
bitkaCK2


I'm not going to neg you, I'm going to + you because I completely agree.

[Batallia]

Alrighty, at the risk of neg rep I'm going to toss out my 2c. Now I'm one of those pesky anti-PvPers and yes, I'm in your thread with an opinion.

Here we go, in my opinion the ONLY time a spell or ability should be blocked in the pit is if it can be used to grief another player. Period. End of Line. No ifs, ands or b-b-buts. I believe this was the case with certain spells that would immobilize players without killing them thus keeping them from leaving the pit area. Getting killed by a spell or ability in the pit is not being grieved. Some spells have saves others do not. That's the way it goes. The pit isn't supposed to be fair or balanced. It's an afterthought tossed in for killing time. I'm sorry if you keep getting dead in there but again, getting killed in the pit is not the same as being grieved.

I'll say it again, if a spell isn't being used to grief players there is no need to block it.

Just my 2c,
bitkaCK2

+2 well said /not signed

[Habreno]

Alrighty, at the risk of neg rep I'm going to toss out my 2c. Now I'm one of those pesky anti-PvPers and yes, I'm in your thread with an opinion.

Here we go, in my opinion the ONLY time a spell or ability should be blocked in the pit is if it can be used to grief another player. Period. End of Line. No ifs, ands or b-b-buts. I believe this was the case with certain spells that would immobilize players without killing them thus keeping them from leaving the pit area. Getting killed by a spell or ability in the pit is not being grieved. Some spells have saves others do not. That's the way it goes. The pit isn't supposed to be fair or balanced. It's an afterthought tossed in for killing time. I'm sorry if you keep getting dead in there but again, getting killed in the pit is not the same as being grieved.

I'll say it again, if a spell isn't being used to grief players there is no need to block it.

Just my 2c,
bitkaCK2

Should be "if a spell/ability/action/etc. isn't being used..." but still +1 to you. Now to block that Otto's Irresistable Dance songs in PVP...

[Dispel]

Break Enchantment!

More Hp!

Pale Lavender Ioun Stone!

Kill Them Quicker!

[Kennyburns]

Get an ion stone/mantle that should save u i would know i got a sorc past life wizard lvl 18 and theres a mele 16/2 barb/rogue his ion stone saves him from me for a while kinda like ur fvs to meele problem like this guy just get an ion stone"the spell block one" and u"ll be fine or just dont brawl/make a caster/nuker healer to stop em its that simple

[weewoo0]

Alrighty, at the risk of neg rep I'm going to toss out my 2c. Now I'm one of those pesky anti-PvPers and yes, I'm in your thread with an opinion.

Here we go, in my opinion the ONLY time a spell or ability should be blocked in the pit is if it can be used to grief another player. Period. End of Line. No ifs, ands or b-b-buts. I believe this was the case with certain spells that would immobilize players without killing them thus keeping them from leaving the pit area. Getting killed by a spell or ability in the pit is not being grieved. Some spells have saves others do not. That's the way it goes. The pit isn't supposed to be fair or balanced. It's an afterthought tossed in for killing time. I'm sorry if you keep getting dead in there but again, getting killed in the pit is not the same as being grieved.

I'll say it again, if a spell isn't being used to grief players there is no need to block it.

Just my 2c,
bitkaCK2

hmmm iirc there used to be a bard on my server who would drop down sing w/ an impossibly high dc then dance everyone who annoyed him and leave them there....

[KillEveryone]

It is this kind of posting that makes me want to see all PvP removed from DDO.

Really, if you are going to have any kind of real PvP, everything should be allowed.

Instant death, Divine punishment. Anything. This is what PvP should be, not nerf this for PvP, remove this from PvP.

so...

/not signed

I don't want to see any spell, ability, enhancement, or feat removed from PvP.

[protokon]

all the DOT spells need to be removed, its just ******** to kill someone and stand there just to die from the same thing because they cast it on you before they died.

DP is definitely the most painful one (at least the electric/cold ones can be reduced)

[Bodic]

ok I like my FvS and I love DP
dont mess with my DP for the sole reason of PvP I dont want it broken in PVE on accident.

Also Ioun stone/Mantle comes to mind and well that self same FvS/Cleeric probably did you in prior to DP you just get eaten up faster, but when that Divine has more HP than you..........

and trust me I know a sexy dwarf FvS that can eat crit sorc polar rays.

[protokon]

ok I like my FvS and I love DP
dont mess with my DP for the sole reason of PvP I dont want it broken in PVE on accident.

Also Ioun stone/Mantle comes to mind and well that self same FvS/Cleeric probably did you in prior to DP you just get eaten up faster, but when that Divine has more HP than you..........

and trust me I know a sexy dwarf FvS that can eat crit sorc polar rays.

nobody here said they wanted it adjusted in PVE. this is the pvp forums, in this thread were talking specifically about DOT spells being usable in the lobster (and other brawl areas) being so broken it ruins the fun of even being there.

there's no argueing that pvp is balanced/not balanced, because it will never truly be balanced - but thats not really what were asking for. playing a divine myself, i love the spell - but its use in the pit is just ********.

if the spell would end as soon as the caster was dead, that would be a whole lot more acceptable...or just get rid of it's use down there altogether.

[BitkaCK2]

hmmm iirc there used to be a bard on my server who would drop down sing w/ an impossibly high dc then dance everyone who annoyed him and leave them there....

Then you have a case for "Please block <insert spell/ability here> because it can be used to grief players" thread. If disco ball is being used to grief players then I agree, block it. I'll 'sign'. However, this thread is about "Please block <insert spell/ability here> because it is killing me" and I'll stand by my above opinion. On a side note I'm surprised this thread is still here. I kinda forgot about it... well a little more than 'kinda'.
bitkaCK2

[fluffybunnywilson]

nobody here said they wanted it adjusted in PVE. this is the pvp forums, in this thread were talking specifically about DOT spells being usable in the lobster (and other brawl areas) being so broken it ruins the fun of even being there.


When you consider the fact that there are 87 other spells and abilities that "ruin the fun of even being there", then I don't see why Divine Power should get special treatment. Yes, I know you have given specific reasons. I just don't find any of those reasons compelling.

Vote Allow-All-Spells-And-Abilities-Allowed-In-PvP for President in 2012!

[Yajerman01]

However, this thread is about "Please block <insert spell/ability here> because it is killing me" Fail. Please re-read the post - i certainly dont mind dying int he pit. I am actually ameanable to Protokon and a few otehrs adjustment - at least let the spell die with the caster.

[Yajerman01]

I just don't find any of those reasons compelling.

cant make everyone happy.

[BitkaCK2]

Fail. Please re-read the post - i certainly dont mind dying int he pit. I am actually ameanable to Protokon and a few otehrs adjustment - at least let the spell die with the caster.

My apologies if I'm missing something here but your OP wants to block DP because melees have no defense against it. Now this next part may be an assumption on my part, however I'm guessing that the result of this lack of defense is getting killed. Hence my impression that this is just another "Please block <insert spell/ability here> because it is killing me" thread.

Anyway, I stated my opinion in this post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3821648&postcount=125). There's not more I can say and remain on-topic. Although I am a little curious as to how Flesh to Stone being used to grief players by locking them down differs from using disco ball to immobilize them. I vaguely recall that victims of FtS couldn't even log out of the game but I could be wrong.

bitkaCK2

[heyytoi]

My apologies if I'm missing something here but your OP wants to block DP because melees have no defense against it. Now this next part may be an assumption on my part, however I'm guessing that the result of this lack of defense is getting killed. Hence my impression that this is just another "Please block <insert spell/ability here> because it is killing me" thread.

Anyway, I stated my opinion in this post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3821648&postcount=125). There's not more I can say and remain on-topic. Although I am a little curious as to how Flesh to Stone being used to grief players by locking them down differs from using disco ball to immobilize them. I vaguely recall that victims of FtS couldn't even log out of the game but I could be wrong.

bitkaCK2

The FTS we had 3 years ago was prety much like DP right now in terms of griefing. 3 years ago you had to make a save every minute, the timer on the spell could be refreshed at will, the tavern regen wasn't getting rid of it and the duration of the spell was 2 min (i think). Now FTS is about 15 secs, save every 2 secs and tavern regen removes it.

Prety much the same thing with otto irresistible dance. Now it's 13ish secs instead of 45 and you can't refresh the timer. In fact the only thing that hasn't change is song of capering, you can even cast it tru walls, save is incredibly high and the timer can be refreshed. However there's way to counter it.

DP (and the caster versions) is insanly unbalanced. I know PvP was never balanced but why make it worst. I think the best way to fix the problem is to block the spell from PvP.

Anyway,

Go PvP

[BitkaCK2]

The FTS we had 3 years ago was prety much like DP right now in terms of griefing. 3 years ago you had to make a save every minute, the timer on the spell could be refreshed at will, the tavern regen wasn't getting rid of it and the duration of the spell was 2 min (i think). Now FTS is about 15 secs, save every 2 secs and tavern regen removes it.

Prety much the same thing with otto irresistible dance. Now it's 13ish secs instead of 45 and you can't refresh the timer. In fact the only thing that hasn't change is song of capering, you can even cast it tru walls, save is incredibly high and the timer can be refreshed. However there's way to counter it.

DP (and the caster versions) is insanly unbalanced. I know PvP was never balanced but why make it worst. I think the best way to fix the problem is to block the spell from PvP.

Anyway,

Go PvP

Thank you very much. That explains a lot. I vaguely remember some of the posts from back then but could not remember specifics. However I'm still back to the griefing thing. Doesn't DP kill you? You rez you fight again you kill you die you rez you fight again.... With the other spells you can do nothing. You can't play the game. You are being kept from playing the game by that spell/ability. To me that's the element missing from DP that would make it griefing and thus warrant blocking.

Oh and I don't want to "Go PvP".
bitkaCK2

[protokon]

Thank you very much. That explains a lot. I vaguely remember some of the posts from back then but could not remember specifics. However I'm still back to the griefing thing. Doesn't DP kill you? You rez you fight again you kill you die you rez you fight again.... With the other spells you can do nothing. You can't play the game. You are being kept from playing the game by that spell/ability. To me that's the element missing from DP that would make it griefing and thus warrant blocking.

Oh and I don't want to "Go PvP".
bitkaCK2

I can certainly understand the point you are making. it's very clear that specific spells will hold a person in place are griefing, while killing the person can easily be considered not griefing, since that is the entire point of the pit is to kill eachother.

However, what I don't like is that the spell continues after the caster dies. I recently was playing on my favored soul with evasion in the pit, an air savant sorc started to attack me. OK, no griefing there. im in the pit, he can attack me at will and nuke for all he's worth til' im dead. I turn around and a few searing lights later, he dies. he then resses, comes back down and throws two spells on me right before i kill him again: niac's biting cold, and the electric version of that. This is the problem I'm having. if these spells are cast on me, and they continue until either A) I die, B) I dispel them with greater dispel or break enchantment or C) until the original spell duration runs out, I can consider that griefing - purely because I can climb out of the pit, and still die from them - even though the original caster died long before i did and I am no longer participating in the brawl (granted this is seconds after leaving the pit, but still).

If the spell was to die along with it's original caster, that would be much more acceptable - but it would be easier, and less likely to cause issues, to just block it altogether IMO.

the pit is unbalanced as it is, with casters being able to pretty much one shot almost anyone with meteor swarm - granted, there are many ways to solve that issue, there isnt one available - other than spell absorption - to stop those DOT's.

[Vellrad]

Do you mean taverns or deathmatch/capture the flag?

PVP in taverns ssucks, it was said like million times, you want PvP find a deathmatch/ctf group.

In PvP maps all spells are allowed, and shouldn't be disabled, because people are testing them here.

[heyytoi]

Thank you very much. That explains a lot. I vaguely remember some of the posts from back then but could not remember specifics. However I'm still back to the griefing thing. Doesn't DP kill you? You rez you fight again you kill you die you rez you fight again.... With the other spells you can do nothing. You can't play the game. You are being kept from playing the game by that spell/ability. To me that's the element missing from DP that would make it griefing and thus warrant blocking.

Oh and I don't want to "Go PvP".
bitkaCK2

Yes DP is griefing imo

And when i say Go PvP i didnt meant *Please go PvP BitkaCK2*

More like *PvP is awesome* :)


Do you mean taverns or deathmatch/capture the flag?

PVP in taverns ssucks, it was said like million times, you want PvP find a deathmatch/ctf group.

In PvP maps all spells are allowed, and shouldn't be disabled, because people are testing them here.

We're talking about PvP pits in taverns. And i have to disagrree that tavern PvP 'ssucks'. Always have been great fun for me even tough DP (and caster versions) kinda ruins it.

[hityawithastick]

Burning Blood, Melf's Acid Arrow, and all the diseases from Contagion also work like these three new DoTs. Since the DoTs are higher level they should rightly outstrip these spells in damage and efficacy just as much as firewall is better than flaming sphere.

Are the new DoT spells cheap? In my opinion, yes. Nothing gets nuked faster than someone who spams Divine Punishment/Eladar's Surge/Niac's Cold. The majority of people (on my server at least) seem to share this opinion--most battles do not involve these spells.

Are these spells griefing? No. They don't impair your ability to play the game like Otto's and FtS do--you just take damage and then die. Once you release, you're good as new. You're not stuck in the pit.

Do I like these spells? I admit I do. They're fun to cast on mobs, especially with the brilliant stacking visual effects from Niac's and Eladar's. It's amusing to drop it on someone who tried to zap you and then run for the ladder. It gives me a real feeling of achievement if I can survive having one cast on me--either by spamming negative energy bursts or frantically recasting protection from energy.

I personally try to save them for (a) PvE boss fights, (b) arena matches with multiple people where slowing down to fight "fair" would get me killed, and (c) use on people who use them on me. :D

[Fundamental]

Well I would agree with you, but good players know how to counter this stuff.
Roll a good ranger, or wizard arcane.
Takes long time to get uber gear but eventually.... it's worth it.

On Ghallanda, I can kill any fvs with my wizard they won't ever get through my absorbsion if 1 to 1 or 2 to 1, arcane with gear beats divine with gear.

Peace

[protokon]

Well I would agree with you, but good players know how to counter this stuff.
Roll a good ranger, or wizard arcane.
Takes long time to get uber gear but eventually.... it's worth it.

On Ghallanda, I can kill any fvs with my wizard they won't ever get through my absorbsion if 1 to 1 or 2 to 1, arcane with gear beats divine with gear.

Peace

spell absorption is trivial to break through for anyone who has a clue how mechanics work.

tier 2 greensteel clickie for meteor swarm. 1 shot its gone. sounds like you havent come across any decent divines if you feel that way, considering the guy on our server who nobody can beat 1 on 1 is a favored soul - in most cases a team of casters cannot kill him either, until the DOT's start getting spammed on him.

please enlighten us on how to 'counter' divine punishment once its cast on you...

[fluffybunnywilson]

please enlighten us on how to 'counter' divine punishment once its cast on you...

At this point, why would anyone bother to explain that to you? Every time someone says something that is a counter, you just reply with a variation on "no it isn't."

There is a 10 second cooldown for Divine Punishment. That means they have to bust through your spell absorbtion and then cast DP and then wait 10 seconds and then cast another DP in order to kill you. All without dying in the process themselves.

And if you do die to DP, you can just heal up and hop right back into the pit and kill the Cleric or FvS that threw it at you in the first place.

This is not a big deal.

[Battlehawke]

No way.... DP is way too good....