(Re)rolling healer/caster cleric (Human, 28 point) - need advice on stats/skills

[Jimbo_Jambo]

I've got a level 12 cleric whom I'm planning on rerolling. As much as I love him, I followed a path for the first few levels, leaving me with a less-than-optimal stat distribution and skills I'll never use.

I plan to spend most of my time in parties healing and mitigating damage through offensive spells, and I definitely intend to get Radiant Servant. I've looked through guides and forum posts, and they all seem to be on pretty much the same page, but the ones I've read are all pretty old and none mention RS, leading me to believe they may have been made before it came out and are thus outdated. So I've gone with what seems like a pretty standard 8 8 14 8 18 14, but since I'll be using Turns for heals, I'm wondering if I might want to pump a but more into Cha. I've considered taking 2 from Wis and putting them into Cha (which would also give me another two points to blow on something else since the last two ranks of Wis took three points each), but I'm worried about the DC on my spells being crippled later on.

Is it wise to take 2 from Wis? And if so, what should I spend the extra two points on? Strength? I won't have any trouble finding a party to join, so I probably won't need to do much soloing or up-front fighting, and I rarely get encumbered as it is. Dex? Assuming my understanding of the system is correct, heavy armor will limit my effective Dex to 12 for purposes of AC, which I can achieve with a +4 item - and I can't necessarily count on being able to find a mithral version of whatever I'm wearing. Con? At 14 already, it would only get me one extra rank, which would be useless unless I took another one from Wis when leveling. Int? A typical dump stat, but the extra skill points definitely wouldn't hurt.

And on the subject of skills, what should I be aiming for? Even though I intend to get Quicken later down the line, Concentration will still be invaluable as I understand it, since I can't afford to quicken every single spell, so I suppose I'll look to max that. Balance is important too - can't cast spells when you're on the ground. I've also had someone suggest that I max Diplomacy; I never used that before. Is it worth it?

Thanks in advance for the help.

[Pfold]

You seem to have a pretty good grasp of building a cleric so I'll just throw a few thoughts out there.

I chose to keep wisdom maxed out on my cleric. It is the stat that determines your mana pool and spell dc's (which in my second life I tried to focus more on). Don't get me wrong, I see plenty of folks that do an awesome job without maxed wisdom but usually they're splashing. So in the end I guess it really boils down to your preference or what your goal with the character is. As far the dc's are concerned (if you don't cap wis), if it's something you 'have' to hit just neg level it then hit it.

Personally I do not like taking more than 10 for Cha as the starting stat. The extra turns may seem attractive initially (for use of positive burst and auras) but even with just starting at 10 charisma when you cap you should have 10-11 turns just from equipment and prestige requisites. It used to be good to have a bunch of turns so you could 'crit fish' but that doesn't exist anymore so it's kind of pointless. 10-11 turns usually gets you through what you're doing. Of course if you're trying to max out umd or something then to each their own. Again, your stats should reflect what your goal with the character is.

I dumped dex and int. Reflex save is generally going to be poor. What is +1 or +2 to an already bad save really going to do?

Constitution is always a safe spot to put points. Having a budget of only 28 points however makes it pretty tight. If like you say you'll be in group more often than not it shouldn't be too much of an issue. When you are able to tr or lr and get more points, I would try to squeeze more into con. As long as you're getting into the 4xx range at 20 you should be ok.

Strength I don't like to leave having a negative modifier. It is a stat that gets hit every now and again by creatures. Being able to take a little extra stat damage doesn't require you to immediately divert your attention from your party to yourself. It determines the amount of encumberance you can endure. It also helps a little with your jump (not much, but still).

Don't forget concentration also helps with throwing scrolls. You are right in thinking that Conc>Bal>X; X can be anything you need it to be. Diplo has its uses but really isn't a super staple. You'll use it in a couple of quests (cruc, cof, etc) but when you're in the down and dirty of trash you shouldn't have agro. If you do just use cc or necro spells. Sound burst, command, greater command, destro, slay living and more are all at you disposal to get you out of harm's way (level dependant of course).

Like I said, you seem to have a good handle of it so you should be fine however you choose to make it.

Edit: for 28 pointer I would do- 10 8 14 8 18 10

[Jimbo_Jambo]

Thanks for the advice. I'm still not quite clear on the exact impact that bit of wisdom would have though. Losing 1 to the mod would just mean 1 on the DC, right? Plus like 10-30 SP depending on the level if I'm reading this chart right. Doesn't seem too crippling - not that I wouldn't like to keep those if I could - but...maybe it won't be necessary to drop them. I'm still struggling to decide just how much charisma I want. 16 might not be necessary, but 10 makes me cringe. With my current Cha of 12 I find myself running out of turns on harder quests and those with lots of undead, but considering that I often pass by shrines with much of my SP intact, it may be that I just need to learn how to manage them better. More opinions would be nice here.

[tihocan]

You can find a couple cleric builds here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=232660).

Btw, you know you can do a lesser reincarnation instead of rerolling?

[Jimbo_Jambo]

^ Thanks for the link, got a couple questions though. Your human Front of Healing build suggests 12 or 14 Cha, but the distribution of the rest of the stats does not seem to allow for 14. I also noticed you don't have Extra Turning mentioned in your suggested feats; do you not think it's worth it? And exactly how well does Toughness fare in later levels? Getting a mere, what would it be...23 HP (?) at level 20 doesn't seem like it would be worth the feat. Would you recommend swapping it out at any point for a Spell Focus or perhaps Extra Turning?

Also, it's my understanding that reincarnations require an item that's really only obtainable at level 19/20, and I'm not sure if and when I'll actually get there. And since I'm F2P, most of the quests available to me are in the lower levels, so the extra TP I'd get from all that favor would be nice. For me personally I feel it makes sense just to remake.

I've got another question for everyone. Exactly how important is Con going to be to a class that can heal itself? More HP is always nice, but I don't think I've ever encountered anything that can kill me in one hit, and an extra 1-2 on the mod would only buy me one more hit at best. Most people I've asked swear by the stat, but I have also seen people who would suggest dumping it. I probably wouldn't dump it completely, but how terrible would it be if I only took 12?

[Vyrn]

I've got a level 12 cleric whom I'm planning on rerolling. As much as I love him, I followed a path for the first few levels, leaving me with a less-than-optimal stat distribution and skills I'll never use.

I plan to spend most of my time in parties healing and mitigating damage through offensive spells, and I definitely intend to get Radiant Servant. I've looked through guides and forum posts, and they all seem to be on pretty much the same page, but the ones I've read are all pretty old and none mention RS, leading me to believe they may have been made before it came out and are thus outdated. So I've gone with what seems like a pretty standard 8 8 14 8 18 14, but since I'll be using Turns for heals, I'm wondering if I might want to pump a but more into Cha. I've considered taking 2 from Wis and putting them into Cha (which would also give me another two points to blow on something else since the last two ranks of Wis took three points each), but I'm worried about the DC on my spells being crippled later on.

Is it wise to take 2 from Wis? And if so, what should I spend the extra two points on? Strength? I won't have any trouble finding a party to join, so I probably won't need to do much soloing or up-front fighting, and I rarely get encumbered as it is. Dex? Assuming my understanding of the system is correct, heavy armor will limit my effective Dex to 12 for purposes of AC, which I can achieve with a +4 item - and I can't necessarily count on being able to find a mithral version of whatever I'm wearing. Con? At 14 already, it would only get me one extra rank, which would be useless unless I took another one from Wis when leveling. Int? A typical dump stat, but the extra skill points definitely wouldn't hurt.

And on the subject of skills, what should I be aiming for? Even though I intend to get Quicken later down the line, Concentration will still be invaluable as I understand it, since I can't afford to quicken every single spell, so I suppose I'll look to max that. Balance is important too - can't cast spells when you're on the ground. I've also had someone suggest that I max Diplomacy; I never used that before. Is it worth it?

Thanks in advance for the help.

For a 28pt pure cleric, a 14con/18wis/14cha seems perfect. Dont take points away from wis, ever, have max starting and put all your points into it since you plan on offensive casting + healing. That since DC makes a huge difference, and since you wont be meleeing, you dont need points in str.

Stats:

Str:
You said you wouldnt be meleeing much, and Id advise against a battle cleric till youre more experianced.
Dex:
Youre a pure cleric yes? That means you wont have evasion, so putting points into dex for ref saves would be a waste.
Con:
14 is fine, if you get 36pt Id suggest 16, but you really dont need it, just a bit more of a buffer.
Int:
For skills, Id say you get concentration + UMD. UMD will be largely useless till you get near cap + get some swaps for it, but, its one of the best skills you can have once you get to that point. Fireshield scrolls, stoneskin wands, etc. increase your survivability by a huge amount.
Wis:
Your stats are perfect as is, and since youll be an offensive caster + healer, without much melee, you dont need those points elsewhere.
Cha:
I personally started with 12 cha, and have enough to spam bursts for a good bit if I need to in certain situations (ToD/VoD/AdQ - Can spam bursts here the whole time in between mass heals/Abbot - The whole time here as well, not that its very long). But since you're a pure cleric with 28pts, you cant use those points better anywhere else.

Skills:
Balance - May be a bit biased since I get balance from my dex as a clr/mnk, but really, you don't get tripped much in raids, or anywhere above vale. Sure, you do get tripped in dq, but not if your party's just standing in 1 spot and beating her down. For reavers, take your shield off, if you have one. - My balance is.. 9, and I cant remember the last time I got tripped or had more than maybe a sec to get up.
Diplomacy - Get a shield as a swap, put it on when you get aggro and shield block. A melee will be there in less than a second and pick it up, I highly doubt even spamming spells would pull aggro off a melee after they've had a bit to grab aggro.


Tl;dr - Your stats are fine as they are, in my opinion, and for skills Id say you get concentration and UMD.

[Vyrn]

^ Thanks for the link, got a couple questions though. Your human Front of Healing build suggests 12 or 14 Cha, but the distribution of the rest of the stats does not seem to allow for 14. I also noticed you don't have Extra Turning mentioned in your suggested feats; do you not think it's worth it? And exactly how well does Toughness fare in later levels? Getting a mere, what would it be...23 HP (?) at level 20 doesn't seem like it would be worth the feat. Would you recommend swapping it out at any point for a Spell Focus or perhaps Extra Turning?

Also, it's my understanding that reincarnations require an item that's really only obtainable at level 19/20, and I'm not sure if and when I'll actually get there. And since I'm F2P, most of the quests available to me are in the lower levels, so the extra TP I'd get from all that favor would be nice. For me personally I feel it makes sense just to remake.

I've got another question for everyone. Exactly how important is Con going to be to a class that can heal itself? More HP is always nice, but I don't think I've ever encountered anything that can kill me in one hit, and an extra 1-2 on the mod would only buy me one more hit at best. Most people I've asked swear by the stat, but I have also seen people who would suggest dumping it. I probably wouldn't dump it completely, but how terrible would it be if I only took 12?

Toughness opens up enhancements that you can use to get about 50 more HP, for a total for 70ish. Really, everyone needs toughness, except barbs. Please dont take out toughness.

Con is insanely important, you will get damaged, and its not a question of if you can have time to heal, but how much youll have to heal. If you had more HP, you have to heal yourself less which is more SP for other things. Get con, get toughness, your playtime will be so much more enjoyable.

[countfitz]

PERSONALLY, I think either quicken OR concentration. I UNDERSTAND that concentration for heal scrolls (I almost never use them though, I'm crazy good at managing my SP bar, some others are not though) and for levels before you get quicken, but IMO it's a waste of either a feat or skill points to have two things that do the same thing.

Also, I agree that maxing wisdom might cost too much. Question: What spells do you plan (are the DCs that important) and are you planning to put everything into wisdom as you level up, including Human AP? (Also, with the human AP I'd put the other point, no matter what, in con, it's great, my Human FvS has over 500 hps that way).
If you are planning a major caster version of a cleric, it might be necessary to max wisdom. I've never rolled one though, and in my experience a mostly heal/some casting, 17 wisdom was enough.

Finally, if you do make wisdom 17, I would put the other points in Int (9, so you can add +1 tome at level 3, you will be able to afford that, and make sure you do it ASAP) and the last 2 on Con. You could even take Charisma down 1, to 13 (buy another tome if you can afford that, but this early in the game maybe not) and bring Con all the way to 16. If you are going to max Concentration, this is the BEST choice, that is the concentration stat anyway.

Why do this? Charisma isn't as important as you think, you're turn checks are unimportant, and all you'll only end up using them for is RS I and II, which you'll have MORE than enough of. I did the math in a prior post somewhere, and its something like for my half orc with a 6 charisma, I can get my aura to last about 29 minutes between shrines if it is constantly on (which it isn't) at level 20. So, with a 14 charisma it should last 39 or so minutes, and 12 or 13 about 35. Which, as I said in prior posts, if you can't manage your aura for that long between shrines, you probably weren't going to complete the quest anyway.

Finally, I'd play the game up to level 14 before you reroll if you think your character can manage. Level 12 is where you start to notice what mistakes you made. You fix them. 14 is where you notice every mistake you made, and you have to fix it again. If you play to level 14, you'll really see what endgame is like as far as healing, raiding, etc., especially in Sands and Gianthold, plus you can make more money to fund your reroll. (And as a cleric, you can just nannybot for 2 levels to see more of the game, nobody will notice you suck as long as you keep their HP up). If you think you can make it that far. Personally, I didn't take this advice (it wasn't given, I wish it had been) and had a Cleric 8, rerolled to cleric 10, then 14, then capped, before I got it right. Same with my paladin (10, 14 then cap). In fact, only my FvS made it to cap in one try, and he is a gimped mule I use to play the ice games and run shroud.

[Jimbo_Jambo]

Tl;dr - Your stats are fine as they are, in my opinion, and for skills Id say you get concentration and UMD.
I'm afraid I've never really grasped the importance of UMD. If I were a high-Int rogue or a bard and planned on soloing, yeah, but as a cleric it's not like I need it for Cure wands, and any arcane buffs could just be dispensed by an actual wizard or sorcerer, right? (assuming I'm in a party which has one, which in all likelihood every party will)

[tihocan]

^ Thanks for the link, got a couple questions though. Your human Front of Healing build suggests 12 or 14 Cha, but the distribution of the rest of the stats does not seem to allow for 14. I also noticed you don't have Extra Turning mentioned in your suggested feats; do you not think it's worth it? And exactly how well does Toughness fare in later levels? Getting a mere, what would it be...23 HP (?) at level 20 doesn't seem like it would be worth the feat. Would you recommend swapping it out at any point for a Spell Focus or perhaps Extra Turning?

Also, it's my understanding that reincarnations require an item that's really only obtainable at level 19/20, and I'm not sure if and when I'll actually get there. And since I'm F2P, most of the quests available to me are in the lower levels, so the extra TP I'd get from all that favor would be nice. For me personally I feel it makes sense just to remake.

I've got another question for everyone. Exactly how important is Con going to be to a class that can heal itself? More HP is always nice, but I don't think I've ever encountered anything that can kill me in one hit, and an extra 1-2 on the mod would only buy me one more hit at best. Most people I've asked swear by the stat, but I have also seen people who would suggest dumping it. I probably wouldn't dump it completely, but how terrible would it be if I only took 12?
Cha: 14 is for the 32 pt version
Toughness: answered above, it's more than 23 HPs.
Lesser Reincarnation: available in the DDO store, or can be found in chest (extremely rare), or traded for with another player (you probably can't afford it at this point).
Con: you can live with 12, but 14 is better, at least if you ever want to get to play the higher levels
Extra Turning shouldn't be needed: with some APs invested in extra turns and the radiant servant turn regen, you should be fine. Though you can go more turn-heavy if you want, that can work too, it's just not something you really need to be a good healer.

[Truga]

Just though I'd put this out: If you run all the content up to level 8 or 9 or somesuch plus a couple higher level quests on elite, you should have enough favor to unlock 32pt builds. Since you're level 12 already, this shouldn't be much of a problem. You can also tag along (pike) when higher levels do their favor runs. If you do take the piking route, it shouldn't take you more than some hours if you have some elites done already. :P

You can pour the 4 points into str for carrying capacity/enfeeblement immunity.

[SirValentine]

I've gone with what seems like a pretty standard 8 8 14 8 18 14, but since I'll be using Turns for heals, I'm wondering if I might want to pump a but more into Cha. I've considered taking 2 from Wis and putting them into Cha (which would also give me another two points to blow on something else since the last two ranks of Wis took three points each), but I'm worried about the DC on my spells being crippled later on.

Is it wise to take 2 from Wis? And if so, what should I spend the extra two points on? Strength? I won't have any trouble finding a party to join, so I probably won't need to do much soloing or up-front fighting, and I rarely get encumbered as it is.


Your 14 Con & 18 Wis look exactly right to me. I would NOT lower either. Also, I would NOT raise Cha more than 14, an extra turn is not worth that many build points, and to be honest, I wouldn't even put it that high on a 28 point build. Throw extra points into Str. A little extra melee ability, carrying capacity, and ability to avoid being helpless when Str-debuffed is a good thing.



And on the subject of skills, what should I be aiming for? Even though I intend to get Quicken later down the line, Concentration will still be invaluable as I understand it, since I can't afford to quicken every single spell, so I suppose I'll look to max that. Balance is important too - can't cast spells when you're on the ground. I've also had someone suggest that I max Diplomacy; I never used that before. Is it worth it?


I'd try to do this: Max Concentration, put 1 point each into UMD and Tumble, get your Jump total to +10 (so that a +30 Jump buff will max you out), and anything left over into Balance.

Oh, BTW, even when Quicken is on, you still need Concentration for using scrolls.

As for Diplo...you're self-healing with lots of hit points. I'd hate to accidently dump the aggro from myself onto some squishy non-self-healing party-mate. Some Cleric/FvS even take Intim to grab the aggro.

[Jimbo_Jambo]

^ Yeah, I'm starting to think 14 Cha is not worth it, but I think I will take Extra Turning, at least until I can learn to manage my bursts better (and get aura). Why the 1 in UMD, by the way? I understand that's a skill I can't use without at least one rank, but having it that low wouldn't really allow me to use anything with any amount of reliability. I sort of thought UMD was an all-or-nothing type of deal. Also, won't my armor check penalty kill such a low Tumble skill?

[Jimbo_Jambo]

Shameless double post and self-bump to push the question about UMD. How useful would it be to me? It's cross-class and I have 8 Int, how many ranks should I put into it if I decide to take that path?

[SirValentine]

^ Yeah, I'm starting to think 14 Cha is not worth it, but I think I will take Extra Turning, at least until I can learn to manage my bursts better (and get aura). Why the 1 in UMD, by the way? I understand that's a skill I can't use without at least one rank, but having it that low wouldn't really allow me to use anything with any amount of reliability. I sort of thought UMD was an all-or-nothing type of deal. Also, won't my armor check penalty kill such a low Tumble skill?

Well...never played a Rogue yet, or Bard, so I'm not super-familiar with how awesome UMD can be with full power. But on my Cleric, I sure wish I had left out a rank of Jump and put in one rank of UMD! If you have zero ranks, you can't use the skill at all, if you have one rank, you can. If, with bonuses, you can hit a UMD total of 20, it will be very useful. That's including your Cha bonus, ship buffs, Prayer, GH, etc., so you don't need a lot of ranks for that to be within reach once you get some gear. 20 UMD will let you equip some items that you otherwise wouldn't be able to. Also, even with less than 20, you'd have a fair chance to cast level-1 scrolls. I wish I could cast the Master's Touch spell on myself!

As for Tumble vs. armor check: at low levels, AC is useful for a Cleric. But once you get to higher levels, useful AC is hard to get for anyone without grinding for a lot of gear, and probably not worth all the equipment slots needed for it for a Cleric. I run around at cap wearing a robe with 17 AC. And I get hit exactly the same amount as when I was trying and had an AC in the mid-40s. But also, like UMD, 1 rank in Tumble lets you use the skill at all. Even if you don't use it often, having the option is worth spending for 1 rank.

[tihocan]

Shameless double post and self-bump to push the question about UMD. How useful would it be to me? It's cross-class and I have 8 Int, how many ranks should I put into it if I decide to take that path?
Only 1 rank in UMD is not very useful, but at least lets you use the skill. Can probably let you at least UMD knock scrolls at higher levels, and if you grab as much +UMD gear as you can and have some skill boost, you may be able to teleport as well :)

[mr420247]

I would probly go with odds like a 17 wis to strt and 11 str 13 con maybe 13 cha if u got the points
round em all up with tomes and just max heals and specialize with necro harms/heals no spll defense
crit for 1200+ and Slay living n Destruction slaughters with some spell pen.

[LordMond63]

On the matter of CHA and uses of Turn (for RS I and II), if you are VIP or have the TP to buy the pack, I'd urge you to look at getting the Red Fens adventure pack. One of the quest rewards is the Sacred Band (ring slot), which is (I think) +4 to WIS and increases the number of Turns you get once you rest. The level range for the pack is maybe 8-12ish. One of the quests is called Last Stand, in which you must defend a drow village under attack by the sahaugin. You can solo the quest on Casual difficulty (bring a fighter-type hireling if you want to make it even easier) and the difficulty level does not seem to affect the quest rewards. You might have to repeat it a couple-three times but you will eventually get the ring. It is part of a set but I think the other half comes only from finishing the last quest in the four-quest chain and not many folks run it (it's not one of my faves either). That will allow you to scrimp a bit on your CHA score and save the stat points for STR or CON.

Further, I think that my two Clerics (one is a pure healer level 11 and the other is a FTR/CLR 1/15- yes, GR+1 is in his near future) have somewhere around 10-12 uses of Turn each and, with a little conservation of uses, I rarely, rarely run out or even low between shrines. Resource management, in terms of spell points, uses of Turn, etc., improve with experience, but it's never a bad idea to plan for the absolute worst possible eventuality and know how to deal with it.