Are you willing to put your money where your gripe is?

[Kalari]

Okay PVP fans as a PVE fan I have made it known how I feel about the implementation of pvp many times in the past. As a Dungeons and Dragons fan I never felt pvp had a place in this game. As a gamer though I realize that different things call to different people. Also as someone with many capped characters I can understand the need to want a different outlet to utilize your play time hence why I petition for many time sinks. But just like I did when I begged with others for housing I knew I had to make my plea noticeable by asking myself these questions.

1. Is what I want for the game (in that instance housing) something that will be used by a large portion of the player base?

2. Can the addition of this add revenue to the game?

3. Will adding this feature be something that wont cut into the development of other more important features?

4. Will it disrupt game balance?

So far I see many of the same things in pvp threads. Gripes about something being over powered. Balance for melees vs arcanes and the like. But no one has come out with a fully detailed layout that will bring in revenue.

Point blank the reason pve is such a focus is when new dungeons/explorer areas are introduced they can make packs which players can opt to buy bringing in revenue. With pvp there is no charge for it so your basically getting what you pay for. My question to you pvp players is this:

What would you pay to have a better pvp system? If they implemented an area where it was complete player vs player with a workable environment would you spend your hard earned dollars to move to said area (if it was a server) Would you spend Turbine points to buy a pack for a quest line that pitted you versus your fellow player population? Honestly if it brings in more revenue even if I would not find myself ever partaking in it I wouldnt be so vocal against pvp. But for now I am not seeing any real reason for the developers to give it any more thought then what we have. Id love to see someone think out a way for the game to profit and make those who really like pvp happy but I just dont find myself caring for the cause. Maybe someone out there who enjoys this can change my mind. Im putting that challenge out to you pvp pro people.

[Stormanne]

is deafening.

Like a lot of people, the vocal minority that wish for more PvP focus, want it but don't want to pay for it. Not saying that all of them wouldn't be willing, I'm sure there are those that would be, just thinking that a lot of them are not.

As it is, I don't think that there should be any work on PvP until there is a large enough of a group of players that are regularly taking advantage of the other forms of it, not just Tavern Brawling Pits.

[heyytoi]

I would pay for better PvP.

Right now its simply retarted and not fun anymore.

PvP never was balanced but it was still enjoyable.

Melee's still had good chances against caster... Now its all gone

So yeah i would pay for more pvp features, but what most pvpers really want right now is a major balance fix so we can enjoy it once more.

[Xenostrata]

I would pay for better PvP.

Right now its simply retarted and not fun anymore.

PvP never was balanced but it was still enjoyable.

Melee's still had good chances against caster... Now its all gone

So yeah i would pay for more pvp features, but what most pvpers really want right now is a major balance fix so we can enjoy it once more.

Any "balancing" in pvp would mean unbalancing in the rest of the game, where casters are supposed to be better at doing burst damage than melees. Even in PnP, if you had an epic caster and an epic melee duking it out, the epic caster would annihilate the melee with little to no problems.

DnD was never meant to be a PvP game, and when "PvP" means "periodic bursts of fighting with lots of standing out of battle in between" then yes, the casters are going to win because they won't run out of resources. You would need to have a long battle in which the caster had no chances to rest, and even with that chances are a caster would save enough sp to kill the melee.

[phillymiket]

Excellent points Kalari.

I'd actually enjoy if there was a pack or an event that pitted one party against another.
That would be fun.

But I can't support changing the game so that a small group can better PvP.
If nothing else it would attract more people who would ask for more changes toward PvP and drive away the majority group who wants to play Dungeons and Dragons.

I have no interest in seeing this

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/7517/dnd01227x300.jpg

turn into this

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/2372/1181242123389.png

However, if someone had ideas that would help the game as a whole, keep PvE untouched and make the PvP experience better while not sucking up all the dev time I'd be all ears.

[fuzzy1guy]

nm

[Kalari]

Any "balancing" in pvp would mean unbalancing in the rest of the game, where casters are supposed to be better at doing burst damage than melees. Even in PnP, if you had an epic caster and an epic melee duking it out, the epic caster would annihilate the melee with little to no problems.

DnD was never meant to be a PvP game, and when "PvP" means "periodic bursts of fighting with lots of standing out of battle in between" then yes, the casters are going to win because they won't run out of resources. You would need to have a long battle in which the caster had no chances to rest, and even with that chances are a caster would save enough sp to kill the melee.

That is honestly how ive felt about ddo to but I am trying to be fair. As much as ddo represents mmo dungeons and dragons it is also a video game. And since going free to play has attracted many different style players. I see all the time them talking about pvp balance, pvp being more interesting. Yet nothing set solid.

When we petitioned for housing there were many threads that just used the "well this game has it." that argument gets shut down faster then an illegal ring near a police station. Basically many of us started sitting down figuring out what we wanted out of housing, what it could bring to the game, and how they could make profit from it (which they do from selling guild amenities, to fluff items such as ship beacons). Sure we put up with those who would simply type "its a waste of dev time" or "no thanks I wont use it." Or even better yet "i'll leave if they put housing in." Trust me everything said to you pvp types has been aimed at this gal to when the housing crusade was going on. The difference now is still no threads laying out exactly what outside of "this class is too over powered" do I see anything laying out what would interest you. What kind of zones, what restrictions? Should it be free for all or limited by level? You see more detail more focus would go a long way. And as I said before you really get what you pay for with pvp. Unless they can find a way to make a pack from it I dont see it ever getting the focus pve does.

[ehcsztein]

So far I see many of the same things in pvp threads. Gripes about something being over powered. Balance for melees vs arcanes and the like.

Funny I see the same gripes in PvE threads. *shrug*

I would enjoy more PvP in this game.

I would pay for the content if it was required. (ie. if it was a "pack" that for some reason wasn't free for VIP.)

I believe PvP options can be increased without upsetting PvE.

I have had PvP sessions in the PnP setting and found it great fun. Sometimes it is just fun to roll up characters within a set of agreed limitations and have them fight out gladiator style for a night.

I feel PvP is worth just as much dev time as crafting and airships have been as it also only satisfies a portion of the populous.

I would find enjoyment in increased PvP options and will continue to support the idea.

I have no interest in trying to convince anyone to see that additional PvP content is a worthwhile investment for the devs. If it is worthwhile we will see it. If it is not we won't.

None of us outside of turbine have enough credible information to determine what is or is not a worthwhile investment of their time/resources.

[Kalari]

I think the play bases wants is a credible way for them to focus its why they send out polls every once in awhile asking for such things. And the more vocal people get things done. The thing is pvp would require a lot of work from where we have it now, but without knowing truly what pvp players want why should they even listen to anyone speaking about it? So far the only people making very coherent arguments are the ones against pvp. This thread was aimed at seeing if maybe people who are for it could come up with ideas to get some interest in making it better.

But I can see by the poster above me attitude that "its not worth the time" for some. So don't expect to see anything change. If pvp is an important enough aspect for you to come to the boards to vent about I do not see why its so hard for someone into pvp to sit and think out a way to bring it into the game that benefits everyone even those of us who do not like it. As I said before if it brings the game dollars even I wouldnt argue against it.

[ehcsztein]

The suggestion for group vs. group play comes up frequently in PvP advocacy threads.

Recently there as been an interest in seeing the tech used for the Crystal Cove event to be used for GvG play.

There is a host of options for doing that as well...such as:

Collecting Challenges
Protection Challenges
Destruction Challenges
Killing Challenges

With rewards going to the winning group of course. The reward system could be similar to what was done for Crystal Cove as well... that being access to and improvement of items only available through that process.

The idea of rewards for PvP seems to be a major stumbling block for many of the vocal anti-PvP folks but, the one thing that motivates players more than anything from my observation is loot.

Even the most adamant anti-PvP folks would be tempted to play in events with the possibility of new shinies even if it meant playing against other human controlled groups.

Crystal Cove was a rather successful occurrence and did not require the player base to pay real $$$ in order to participate. It is also indicative of Turbine adding something beyond the scope of things actively requested by the forum community.

Similar things could be done with a GvG slant just as easily. Players were not required to participate in that event. Much like they are not required to explore Epic Content, the GS hamster wheel, or new crafting system in order to enjoy the game.

It was an option that was enjoyed by many and scorned by some much like any change to the available mechanics of the game.

I also believe that Turbine is capable of adding GvG play a successful way without tampering with the PvE game aside of equipment additions. Of course they already tamper with the PvE game by way of equipment additions/changes all the time so that is largely a moot point.

[stille_nacht]

well id like a nice PvP system sure, but i wouldnt support it until more content is available. At least 1.5 times as much as we have now, and at least enough freebie quests to comfortably get to 20

if that point occurs, then PvP systems are simple, have either
A- a seperate server for PvP with tweaked values of abilities and spells,
or B- when people enter PvP instances (say, capture the flag or something), said tweaked values will come into play.

but for now, the focus should be more content (and a bit of balance between classes PvE wise, and certain aspects of the game could be polished [AC, graaaa]).

[mr_O]

I never spend more then a few minutes in the brawling it. It is a horrible excuse for PvP action, there was little to no thought put into it at all.

That being said, I came from guild wars and will be leaving for guild wars 2. The feeling of knowing you CAN go PvP in a dynamic setting big enough to evade those spells with enough cuts to sneak around and flank your enemy is amazing. It is an excellent way to massage egos and settle grudges.

DDO can and should do a better job with pvp, there should be DEDICATED pvp areas added to all the servers. I suggest a new tavern in house D that leads to seperate instances like quests but set for PvP. Have 3-4 (to start) different areas of varying sizes and complexities. When you select a door it should have something akin to n/h/e selections but instead for free-for-all teams or CTF. Alternatively you could have a player talk to an npc and join a que for a pvp match sort of like they have in WAR.

As for a way they could make a tidy sum of profits off of it, take a page out of guild wars and allow players to buy a character slot JUST FOR PVP. Allow this toon to be created at level 20 and given basic high end gear, plus 5 fullplate plus 5 swords,sheild,etc. This character should not be allowed outside of the pvp tavern thus limiting the gear he can get to anything he can mail himself or trade for. This lets people access a wide spectrum of pvp but allows the PvE people to come in and wreck face with all the BTC raid loot they put in time and effort to get.

As it stands and this is directly to turbine and is a nerdrage over my BIGGEST PvP complaint. YOU COMPLETELY d*&^ED OVER ROGUES. we cant sneak/ go invis. Everyone and his brother has heavt fort, so no snk dmg. Pretty much everything a rogue SHOULD do in pvp they CANT do in pvp. Please fix this.

pvp being fixed will take a long time and some dedication on the devs part but i feel it can be fixed and made into a fun, interesting, and profitable aspect of DDO. I mean face it who doesnt wanna stroke theyre *cough* egos *cough* as theyre 92nd trd female elf barb destroys the big burly half orc.

[ehcsztein]

Believe me I want more standard content as well.

If, say before the Crystal Cove event went live, I was asked whether I wanted more quests(standard content) or to have a challenge system implemented I would have easily picked more quests.

However, they developed the technology implemented the event and needless to say I really enjoyed it!

The same thing might be possible for players who are automatically opposed to PvP content.

Things can be developed concurrently after all.

[Thorzian]

I'd donate $100 to the deletion of pvp. Does that count?

Bet i'm not alone either.



I suggested once that they monitize the ability to even enter pvp. Judging from the neg rep offa that.. Pvp players aint gonna pay jack.

+1 you are not alone. wanna pvp? go play wow. it has a great pvp system

[Kalari]

See this is what I like now you are talking adding ideas. It is far easier to say what you want to see out of pvp then just feeling defeated. Look I still may not get it but I like the ideas I am seeing its called being open and seeing a structured want for something.

And yeah I know some of the hold outs will be in this thread and already are there is nothing you can do about them Id just like to see this thread used for people who have well enough thought out ideas who knows who is reading this stuff or where it can take you. If you really believe that pvp can be brought about without affecting those of us who prefer pve and game balance and have set ideas why stand idly by? The people at Turbine gave us these boards to sound off but coherent sound off pays off a lot better.

[Ungood]

I personally do not like PvP either.

And the idea of making a P2P PvP zone, is appealing to me, especially if it is given it's own private general chat channel.

[ehcsztein]

+1 you are not alone. wanna pvp? go play wow. it has a great pvp system

I have played WoW. I did enjoy the PvP system. I did not enjoy the rest of the game mechanics in general so the idea of only playing in order to enjoy a very small percentag of the content didn't seem worth it to me.

Whereas I do enjoy the game mechanics of DDO and believe they could be applied for PvP improvements.

[Kalari]

Now im not going to tell folks not to post in this thread if they are anti pvp because thats just silly I only hope the discussions in here stay civil. I look at it this way time sinks are a needed factor in the game. Some time sinks people will utilize such as housing, events. Some dont I think more options and more revenue are very okay things to add to ddo. If people for pvp can come up with solid concepts that can be added without messing with our over all pve environment why stop them?

Just some food for thought.

[SisAmethyst]

...
With rewards going to the winning group of course. The reward system could be similar to what was done for Crystal Cove as well... that being access to and improvement of items only available through that process.

The idea of rewards for PvP seems to be a major stumbling block for many of the vocal anti-PvP folks but, the one thing that motivates players more than anything from my observation is loot.
...

While I agree that loot is a major incentive I have big concerns if gear and items where implemented that actually force me to participate in any PvP or GvG. While the basis currently is PvE and nearly everybody can participate I would vote against anything that shift this due to loot that is in anyway more then flavor and only achievable through PvP.
I wouldn't compare that with "...not required to run Epic Content..." neither as the base items still can be obtained with the regular Quest. Not to mention that you first have to reach a certain level and probably more player would run Epic content if the grind for scrolls and Co. wouldn't be that insane as you can see on the success of the items of Crystal Cove.

What would help probably is, if the PvP zones would alter certain behavior of spells and skills to balance them. Like we already have it that we can't cast underwater for example. However if that would be the case I can already see players running amok and creating bug reports because either their description doesn't match in this zone or they think its bugged. Also while usually the brawl is as well used to test new spells or skills, it wouldn't be possible anymore to get valid information this way. Thus very much undesired. For example most of the Greensteel effects have been tested and reported via fights in the brawl.

Also while the PvP brawl seems to be used, I have the impression that the private PvP/GvG instances - that you already can do - aren't used that much if at all. So I am uncertain if investment into this would pay off. Also I agree with stille_nacht that for the casual and F2P player we may first need a whole bunch of Quests and Zones that need more focus as well as the missing Epic content.


Crystal Cove was a rather successful occurrence and did not require the player base to pay real $$$ in order to participate. It is also indicative of Turbine adding something beyond the scope of things actively requested by the forum community.

While it was not necessary I am pretty sure that a lot of players bought at least a compass or potions to increase the doubloons. Turbine is a company that need to make money, they not create this stuff just to amuse us. So how exactly would you add PvP or GvG that create exactly this revenue for Turbine? Adding items that only can be obtained via PvP aren't the way to go. So just saying it is possible doesn't mean it's viable, like it is for me possible to jump from a bridge but very unlikely to happen. ;)

[MsEricka]

I too would pay to have PvP removed.

That is all.

[ehcsztein]

Just to touch on a few points...


Also while the PvP brawl seems to be used, I have the impression that the private PvP/GvG instances - that you already can do - aren't used that much if at all.

I think the discussion of improving PvP options largely comes up because of the inadequacies of the current system. There is no incentive to use it now so it gets in the way of gear acquisition and XP. This however does not demonstrate that people do not want PvP improvements. It just solidifies that people's priorities are XP and gear. We can understand that without even thinking about PvP lol.

Of course I also mentioned ideas that would revolve around GvG win conditions that would not require the groups to engage in combat with eadch other.

The current system is largely a poor implementation of traditional PvP concepts. I am advocating the development of PvP concepts that are unique to DDO that add to the game and allow the mechanics available to be explored in new ways. Crystal Cove was still just DDO but with a distinct and enjoyable twist. I'd like a similar twist on PvP.


So how exactly would you add PvP or GvG that create exactly this revenue for Turbine? Adding items that only can be obtained via PvP aren't the way to go.

Off the top of my head... consumables that are only usable in a pvp context... HP/SP regen for example. Or one that will probably be a bit more contraversial... a consumable that allows XP to be earned for satisfying PvP objectives.

[sirdanile]

I would pay for better PvP.

Right now its simply retarted and not fun anymore.

PvP never was balanced but it was still enjoyable.

Melee's still had good chances against caster... Now its all gone

So yeah i would pay for more pvp features, but what most pvpers really want right now is a major balance fix so we can enjoy it once more.

Haha, the one person who frequently killed me without my being able to get a shot in is saying melee HAD a chance against a caster at one point... ;)

But yeah, its not high on my list but I wouldnt mind a little pvp love in the future.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Okay PVP fans as a PVE fan I have made it known how I feel about the implementation of pvp many times in the past. As a Dungeons and Dragons fan I never felt pvp had a place in this game. As a gamer though I realize that different things call to different people. Also as someone with many capped characters I can understand the need to want a different outlet to utilize your play time hence why I petition for many time sinks. But just like I did when I begged with others for housing I knew I had to make my plea noticeable by asking myself these questions.

1. Is what I want for the game (in that instance housing) something that will be used by a large portion of the player base?

2. Can the addition of this add revenue to the game?

3. Will adding this feature be something that wont cut into the development of other more important features?

4. Will it disrupt game balance?

So far I see many of the same things in pvp threads. Gripes about something being over powered. Balance for melees vs arcanes and the like. But no one has come out with a fully detailed layout that will bring in revenue.

Point blank the reason pve is such a focus is when new dungeons/explorer areas are introduced they can make packs which players can opt to buy bringing in revenue. With pvp there is no charge for it so your basically getting what you pay for. My question to you pvp players is this:

What would you pay to have a better pvp system? If they implemented an area where it was complete player vs player with a workable environment would you spend your hard earned dollars to move to said area (if it was a server) Would you spend Turbine points to buy a pack for a quest line that pitted you versus your fellow player population? Honestly if it brings in more revenue even if I would not find myself ever partaking in it I wouldnt be so vocal against pvp. But for now I am not seeing any real reason for the developers to give it any more thought then what we have. Id love to see someone think out a way for the game to profit and make those who really like pvp happy but I just dont find myself caring for the cause. Maybe someone out there who enjoys this can change my mind. Im putting that challenge out to you pvp pro people.

I'm not a fan of PvP in DDO but I've made a suggestion that would meet your criteria quite a few times in the past.

Simply put, implement a map similar to DotA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_the_Ancients). In this quest it is the goal of the party to destroy an enemy base (portal, tree, building, whatever) while defending a friendly base. A large portion of the map is independent of the players; trash from both sides periodically spawns and marches towards the opposing base and it is the job of the party to aid there advance to facilitate the completion of the quest. Even without a PvP aspect this could be a fun event style map similar in difficulty structure to Crystal Cove. The PvP aspect comes in with the option to to have an opposing party helping the opposing trash destroy your base. The important thing that makes this idea workable in the D&D context it is that maintains a primarily PvE focus (players have to kill the trash and the portal, other players are effectively a distraction).

Regarding your criteria;

1. Is what I want for the game (in that instance housing) something that will be used by a large portion of the player base?

Yes, it would be used by a large proportion of the player base as having an opposing party partake in the instance is optional and it could be fun for everyone.

2. Can the addition of this add revenue to the game?

Yes, you could sell each map individually for TP.

3. Will adding this feature be something that wont cut into the development of other more important features?

No, minimal developer time would be necessary as many explorer areas currently exist that would be viable platforms for the map. The developer time necessary would involve pathing and balancing of the trash mobs.

4. Will it disrupt game balance?

No. Very little change to game mechanics would be necessary to make this viable. The only global change that I think of that is really necessary is to make it possible to hide from opposing players, without this change rogues and other stealthy characters are at a huge disadvantage. After that all of the balancing can occur on the map. Specifically, make structures immune to all spells and ranged weapons; this will make melee characters a necessary part of a balanced team without which it will be significantly more difficult to win. Further balancing could involve game options that could be turned on by players as they enter the map, examples might include restrictions to levels, equipment or anything else you can think of but only on the map.

So yes, this is my PvP idea, what do you think?

[stille_nacht]

i would want PvP to be free if it ever did happen :/, it would indirectly increase revenue by virtue of drawing more players because of more features.

[Clay]

I would pay money for some of the features I suggested in another thread... And I bet if they were implemented... many of the "get rid of PvP" and "PvP sucks" people would enjoy.

It would be fun to go head to head with another group in the same dungeon.

I am not for balancing 1:1 pvp with various classes... but suggesting that PvP should be cut out is more selfish as asking for a little more developer attention to making it what it could be. Just cus YOU don't like it, doesn't mean it has no place.

[Kalari]

Wax on that is actually a fun sounding idea heck something I could see myself enjoying as well and voluntary which means those who arent into it dont have to utilize it.

stille_nacht the problem with your wishes is asking for anything and just expecting time to be put into it for a chance at profit isnt as good as having a plan that ties into direct revenue.

people used to say "why have any housing what can the game get from it." Now most guilds are using airships people are forming guilds and even buying charters to own them. They are using the store to sell us items for said ships (which hopefully one day will include more fluff design type items furniture and the like.) So its rather simple people into pvp who really want to see an over haul should be able to come up with not only concepts that wont hurt our pve environment, but can also be tied into the store which would bring profits which can be used to bring other things we want to see in game. I just think of things threw a business perspective.

[stille_nacht]

well, they did release F2P quests didn they? :P, a rewarding, balanced, and accessable PvP system is a bigger playerdraw than any 2 updates i am pretty sure

/holdsout hope

but first, more content.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I would like to see PvP improved, but I do not care about balance betwen the classes.


In my opinion the best use of PvP is group against group. I like the Capture the Flag ones.....we need more arenas for it IMO.

Would like to see a dungeon with monsters...etc. Where two groups can compete against each other to complete.

Would need multiple paths to completion, and maybe traps etc. That would make individuals be off by themselves at times...

I would find that very interesting. :cool:

More complicated death matches for one on one too. If there is enough variety of terrain, and a few abilties in PP are fixed....like stealth... then the classes can use more tactics to overcome another class's abilties.

There are many ways to spice up PvP without worrying about baance between classes IMO.

[stille_nacht]

I would like to see PvP improved, but I do not care about balance betwen the classes.


In my opinion the best use of PvP is group against group. I like the Capture the Flag ones.....we need more arenas for it IMO.

Would like to see a dungeon with monsters...etc. Where two groups can compete against each other to complete.

Would need multiple paths to completion, and maybe traps etc. That would make individuals be off by themselves at times...

I would find that very interesting. :cool:

More complicated death matches for one on one too. If there is enough variety of terrain, and a few abilties in PP are fixed....like stealth... then the classes can use more tactics to overcome another class's abilties.

There are many ways to spice up PvP without worrying about baance between classes IMO.

problem is, there must be class balance, or all of PvP would be one class. (ex, in capture the flag, 6 savant sorcs >>>> balanced party, they would snipe a sorc, then annihalate everyone else)

easiest way to achieve this is to tweak number values for PvP situations

[dieselphiend]

Any "balancing" in pvp would mean unbalancing in the rest of the game, where casters are supposed to be better at doing burst damage than melees. Even in PnP, if you had an epic caster and an epic melee duking it out, the epic caster would annihilate the melee with little to no problems.

DnD was never meant to be a PvP game, and when "PvP" means "periodic bursts of fighting with lots of standing out of battle in between" then yes, the casters are going to win because they won't run out of resources. You would need to have a long battle in which the caster had no chances to rest, and even with that chances are a caster would save enough sp to kill the melee.

Give us a large explorer area, and casters lose their edge against ranged attacks... Balance in a box? Could never happen...

[dieselphiend]

Just build a large explorer area where players can take advantage of the terrain. Melee's could have a place with a lot of walls for blocking spells, like a maze, with different levels, etc, rangers could kill most casters before that ever knew what hit them. Balance be gone, no more whining...

[protokon]

just cus YOU don't like it, doesn't mean it has no place.

this.

<insert sarcastic comment about how pvp should die> :rolleyes:

/vomit

[wax_on_wax_off]

Wax on that is actually a fun sounding idea heck something I could see myself enjoying as well and voluntary which means those who arent into it dont have to utilize it.

So stick with this idea.

It's fun, viable, revenue raising, beneficial to the game overall. Why can't we champion this idea until it gets implemented?

Are there any problems with it?

[Thailand_Dan]

As a person who has never been into PvP, I have to agree with you that the player base has changed dramatically since F2P, therefore, it's worth examining. I like how you bring up the point that it should not only pay for itself, but bring profits to Turbine if it is to be seriously considered. Great post. I'd positive rep you if you had it turned on :)

I think the idea of a PvP server is not ideal, as old-timers, who by far, are overwhelmingly not into PvP, will likely never give it a try, and the rift between them and "F2P-boomers" would begin to widen, again. Not to mention, the on-going support and maintenance of an independent server would likely be more substantial then simply integrating it into game-play on all pre-existing servers. (Not to mention, the PDers would go nuts).

Most of the resistance to PvP, I believe, comes from the horrible implementation of it in this game and the brag-fest seen in other games. If the devs put some effort into it, and made it more then a single room, that's a free for all, it might be kind of fun. In addition, if care was taken to integrate DDO style objectives, and questing, I think you'd eliminate a lot of the "Up, down, up, up, R-button, A+C+Right...Crowd" that are known for childish bragging and taunting.

You could split the play between Levels 5-10, 11-16, 17+. You could re-use preexisting dungeons and set objectives, Party vs Party. Imagine something like STK, or Spliterskull, one team starting at the beginning and the other at the end. Customization, would be key. Maybe the party leaders could decide on certain elements: time limit, objective (i.e. capture the flag, kill all enemies, resurrection or not, etc.), independent mobs present or not, etc. Maybe you could set a time limit where traps could be set, and players can get into position, before the opposing team can enter into your area. Suddenly, that trap monkey to set and detect traps would become essential to a party (something no other quest has manged to do).

Talk about re-playability. Suddenly, you have no idea what is around the next corner. Static quests is something many people would like changed. Here a dynamic environment is a guaranteed.

Suddenly, where to fight, how to fight (which weapons and spells), who to attack first, who to put out front, flanking your enemy, disrupting his plan of attack and many more real life battle elements come into play and are vital to success. Suddenly, spells which are never (or rarely) used become really useful (i.e. grease, slow, glitterdust, dispel magic, summon monster/undead to scope out enemy positions and traps, etc.).

And since we are going off the map, how about a unique dungeon which allows for a party to party turn based fight? This would make no sense playing against a computer, where the main thing a mob does is swing, swing, swing or if you are a hobgoblin caster, "Searing light", "Ray of enfeeblement", "Searing Light". The battle, would go from character to character where they choose their attack/heal/etc and their target. Talk about pulling in the old-time PnPers. But, I digress. Just a thought.

I think the biggest challenge you run into with PnP is rewarding the winner. If you give them too much, those choosing not to participate will go crazy, but if you give them nothing (as it is now), people quickly get bored. A suggestion would be 2 or so random loot chests at the level of those competing, but that isn't too exciting. Maybe throw in some rare drops of other items available in quests (i.e. small/medium/large ingredients, etc.). In addition, the party could add agreed upon items and/or plat into a community chest before the battle, which only the winner can access when the battle is concluded. (The UI could be something like the trade window, where everyone puts their stuff into it, and it is locked when both sides agree).

If a pack like this was released, I think many players would give it a try. I know I would. In addition, it could help spread tactical knowledge among the player base. Many people stick with their guild questing, but competing against other guilds would certainly show you some new tricks you never knew were out there.

As far as profits for Turbine, of course they could charge for the pack. But, I think they would see a lot more items purchased. Personally, I've never bought items from the store which are available in game unless it was going to save me time or I forgot something (i.e. forgot to bring jump potions into the pit, while soloing, and realizing it when I step into the third furnace, or a spirit cake while soloing.). If you are out of SP in a quest, as a arcane or cleric, you probably just let the party know and they fend for themselves until the next shrine, but if your party may wipe in a vicious fight, you'll probably bite the bullet and chug that major (store bought or not). Unlike normal questing where your party typically out-classes every enemy, you are now evenly matched, outmatched, or slightly under-matched with your foe, so resource consumption will likely be far greater than normal game play.

Thank about it.

[DMCain]

Personally, I HATE PvP. I know that others find it enjoyable, I'm not one of them. I have left excellent games because they forced me to participate in PvP on what was billed as a PvE server/environment.

Now, if Turbine could come up with a reasonable PvP system (free or pay) for those that like it, I would support it and let those have their fun. But the thing is, no matter how good, fair or balanced a PvP environment is, there are going to be people that whine about how borked it is.

In all my 30+ years of playing D&D and AD&D, player on player action was very rare and usually an arena or gladiatorial type thing that was mostly a one shot stress relief. And on one occasion a tournament where everyone played lvl 18 wizards with identical stats, a budget for gear and spell selection left totally up to the player.

I'd be happy to see PvP totally ripped out of DDO. I say be happy you got yer basic tavern brawl and leave it at that.

[ehcsztein]

But the thing is, no matter how good, fair or balanced a PvP environment is, there are going to be people that whine about how borked it is.

This is not a situation that is unique to PvP. It is already an active part of the PvE culture in DDO.

There will always be players who view aspects of any game as broken, or over powered, or unfair in one way or another.

"Balance" is a moving target in any complex game.

[Elation]

well, they did release F2P quests didn they? :P, a rewarding, balanced, and accessable PvP system is a bigger playerdraw than any 2 updates i am pretty sure

/holdsout hope

but first, more content.


Your basing player draw on what. Do you have any support for this claim? I am pretty sure that we can all make things up like this but something real behind it would be nice. Since the general responses concerning what could be done seem relatively weak. Yes they released free to play quests but not very many of them in comparison.

[Aurora1979]

I mentioned this before in a thread, last week or so. I generally got little feed back and loads of neg for it but I stand by what I said, and this OP.

Personally I dont like PvP and I dont play it. Ive had a tinker in the brawl pits, decided it wasnt for me and not been back.

I dont have anything against it being in the game though as long as it doesnt detract devs time, development money and game balance for PvE.

On that basis it makes perfect sense to set up a small PvP division within the DDO main team.

However much it will cost to develop PvP that cost should be picked up by people who want to play it. Therefore, PvP gets fincial investment allowing turbine to employ other resources to develop without it effecting the "main" game.

They could design it so your character can have a different setting the moment you zone into a fight pit (rather then the open door in a tavern atm. That way when you go on a dungeon crawl you have Pve specs balanced for that part of the game then in the pit it is rebalanced for that enviroment.

[Chai]

So far I see many of the same things in pvp threads. Gripes about something being over powered. Balance for melees vs arcanes and the like. But no one has come out with a fully detailed layout that will bring in revenue.

I see this ALOT in many threads.

1. People are more than willing to come out and say this (insert aspect of game here) completely sucks and ask what Turbine was thinking when they put it in.

2. Very few people are willing to suggest an alternate system. I have a feeling that its due to the fact that they know their fellow forumites will put their suggestion under the microscope and show them how its not nearly as good of a business decision as what is currently live.

That being said, good luck. D&D has 30+ years of never being balanced for PVP behind it. It will be hard to balance any incarnation of this game so there isnt a few classes / builds that simply cant be touched, or can only be beat by another very specific combination.

[Kalari]

I get that there is not a big draw for pvp from many of us. As I said in my original post not really a fan of it myself. I do understand though that we are not the same game we started out as. We have attracted a new crop of players for better or worst. If there is a way for them to add a better pvp dynamic that does not affect general game play, brings extra dollars into the game and the like I dont see why anyone would balk at it. Ive tried other mmos that have the optional pvp some separate by servers some have toggles. They have it from the ground up though, so with ddo it would probably take a major overhaul for them to get it out of the afterthought section.

so basically I thought if people are so passionate about pvp that they can come to this section to vent about powers and balance why not get a focused thought together and see where it goes?

Oh and Chai I know its the nature of gamers to complain you cant satisfy every one but I know when I asked for housing I pretty much faced the same thing many people in this section wanted. Only difference is sticking at it adding why I felt it should be put in and not adding unnecessary untrue facts I think helps. I saw plenty of good ideas already in this thread and not many people talking for others which is a good thing. I just think that those who are into pvp should try to have a more coherent voice if they want to be taken seriously. And putting their money where their gripe is may help as well.

Oh and thanks Thailand Dan but as Ive said before I dont participate in the rep system no more I dont want a rating system stopping me from speaking my mind too distracting from the issues for me :)

[Vanquishedfo]

First pvp does bring the game money because its the WHOLE game I come to play, the fact the PVP is very poorly implimented in DDO does not mean it cant become something great.

PnP was always the equiv of PVP in an MMO. Why? Because you always had a thinking person behind the DM screen. Not only that, but in my experiance it was very typical for good RPers when not playing a pack of old friends, or loyal comrades,to turn on each other frequently because it was GOOD RP. Just as a paladin in sigil had to learn not to use his detect evil or throw down with every passing devil, it was about RPing the right attitude, and even best friends can, will, and at least occasionally SHOULD turn on each other for some piece of super loot.

This is why there are those here in DDO asking for more PVP content, because its also the real end game content in any MMO, and actually in any PnP game to. Did you like your characters to live to old age and die in thier sleep?

Not I, my characters always found a glorious end, typically in battle against another player character, over some fitting reason to battle even if it was an imagined slight to his honor.

Now to how they can make money with it? Are you serious? They could so easily drop in a system similar to GW1 and have at least something viable and fun. They could then sale 5 dollar a month PVP VIP subs for those only in the mood to PVP, who would gain access to making a character of any lvl and equip them with items drawn from the games named list of the right lvl, and allow pvpers to jump right in at each other.

Some PVE die hards say well PVP takes away from the game, or balance for PVP hurts PVE. It could, but just as easily and more likely it would improve it.

There are alot of things that people current see as NEEDS in PVE and even look down upon or refuse to play with people who dont or WONT abuse the easy to exploit power loot of this game. It is these things like for example heavy fort off the top of my head, which can all on its own negate the entire combat benefit of a rogue, or a kensai fighter, that create imabalance not just in PVP but also in PVE. I see how some say certain bonuses on weapons are to powerful if added on certain weapons. lvl drain on crit to a rapier for example. yet they dont see how heavy fort on any little item is very much worse for the game over all.

In my PnP group, it was interepreted that fort had to go on armor only, and fit the type of armor worn. so light armor for light fort, med armor for med fort etc. this kept the out right immunity to the bulkiest slowest and typically easiest to be hit low dex builds. Ive made suggestions like that here on the forums before and even had my rep bar hit heavily for suggesting that nerf to fort.

Yet imagine if suddenly EVERYONE and thier moms couldnt have heavy fort, if that was part of the advantage of being the heavy armor tank who as the pint man in battles truly does have a NEED for serious crit protection.

If it was rarer, then they could start making the dmg monsters deal be downed to something more reasonably resembling a fun fight rather then a if they hit me I die so thus CC and agro management are the keys to victory WOWtard style.

If you need to see a good simple effective way to balance pvp and pve, just look at GW1 which actually amazed many gamer amgs and players with its success in the shadow of WOW not just for the PVP core it was built upon, but also expanded into an amazing story driven pve campaign that was incredibly challenging, not due to hack and slash buff mechanics seen here in our so called end game, but through creating very dynamic tactical challenges, that allowed for dozens if not hundreds of variations in party builds to succeed.

This is why GW2 is on the horizen, and currently looks like the next great sword and sorcery MMO which since they dont charge a monthly fee, wont be any harder for me to invest in, then buying a 50 spot of DDO points as I currently do monthly to show support to turbine. However part of that support is meant to see DDOs PVP expand. if they dont and keep wasting all energy on content that gives no more then 2 or 3 play sessions worth of fresh fun before its just another grind, then DDO will lose my support and I have no doubt many others who keep trying to hope DDO is working on all fronts to become a GREAT game, instead of just an ok one with a niche.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

problem is, there must be class balance, or all of PvP would be one class. (ex, in capture the flag, 6 savant sorcs >>>> balanced party, they would snipe a sorc, then annihalate everyone else)

easiest way to achieve this is to tweak number values for PvP situations

I disagree. But you can't make it a cage match. There has to be terrain that allows tactics and surprises. And when you add teams it changes things a lot.

But many abilities do not work in PvP right now. Those need to be fixed/allowed.

If a Rogue sneaks up on you, you can be dead before you can make a concentration check and get a spell off.

You can be ranged from a distance that is too far for your spells to land.

You can be surrounded......tanked by someone who is actively being healed by someone else.

Add more dimensions to PvP and you allow for brains to overcome brawn.

[DarkSpectre]

Excellent points Kalari.

I'd actually enjoy if there was a pack or an event that pitted one party against another.
That would be fun.

But I can't support changing the game so that a small group can better PvP.
If nothing else it would attract more people who would ask for more changes toward PvP and drive away the majority group who wants to play Dungeons and Dragons.

I have no interest in seeing this

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/7517/dnd01227x300.jpg

turn into this

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/2372/1181242123389.png

However, if someone had ideas that would help the game as a whole, keep PvE untouched and make the PvP experience better while not sucking up all the dev time I'd be all ears.

STOP... Judge.... Half-point... :D

[dieselphiend]

D&D??? DDO isn't even turn based, it's a perfect platform for twitch style, PVP...

[Kalari]

Look we could go back and forth on what everyone's opinion on pvp's relation to pnp is but honestly no one will every 100 percent agree.

We have those of us who feel there is no place for it.

We have those who do enjoy it and maybe even had pen and paper sessions with it.

Thats not the point of this thread.

Arguing whether or not it has a place in this mmo is pointless because its all opinion. Putting forth ideas that show the people who have a way of implementing a better pvp setting was the whole reason I decided to put the bullseye on my keister by starting this thread.

Honestly I was up front about not really caring if an overhaul ever happened but I am for bringing revenue and keeping our play base strong. I realized after trying other mmo's out there that their are ways to cater to those who do not wish to indulge in such game play while catering to those who do. But you know what? None of those games are free and to develop something this big even for those who want it they need to see that it could and will bring in the dollars necessary to support such changes.

Sure I dont want anything added that will change the dynamic feel to this game Ive gotten used to but kinda too late for that, this game definitely is not the same game I started playing. So if IM going to go with the flow and accept and adapt to changes id like to see them at least make sense. Structured pvp changes that dont affect my game play (ie completely optional) would not hurt me as much as I used to think it would..maybe im just maturing a bit../nah I just like the thought of people using proper form to petition for things they want and like to see ddo continue to become a well rounded game for all. I would still love to see a hardcore server for perma death players as well.

[Vanquishedfo]

Ok start with a pvp lounge area, add pvp arena zones, that vary from small to large, and different kinds of terrains, and mini games, like capture the flag, last man standing, first to get 10 kills etc. Add in a few team size options from 1-12 to further milk its sheer potential for variation. Make it so you can enter it as a pve character, or a pure pvp only character who you can pretty much make for whatever lvl range u feel like, equip with a list of gear, maybe making named loot from pve unlockable through pvp reward points, thus making a reason to pvp as a pure pvp build, or come in with a pve character to test your mettle. Eventually expand this to parts of the world, where certain outdoor zones are made for up to 36 players who can team or not, and fight each other or not, while doing pve style stuff.

Finally some say well D&D is about friendship and getting along. If I and my Best bud of 23 years( since first grade where we met) where to suddenly stumble upon say excalibur, or Storm Bringer. I would honestly bash his head in with the nearst rock if it looked like he was even thinking of touching it first. Period. That is the true draw of epic artifact magic loot and in a game it is even easier to let one let out that inner Greed.

[uhgungawa]

We're taking a collections to get rid of PvP? Where do I donate? :D

[stille_nacht]

Your basing player draw on what. Do you have any support for this claim? I am pretty sure that we can all make things up like this but something real behind it would be nice. Since the general responses concerning what could be done seem relatively weak. Yes they released free to play quests but not very many of them in comparison.

general knowledge, in many MMOs, PvP is a popular or even integral part of that MMO (see maplestory, runescape, WoW, etc.e tc.) a lot of players have a lot of fun doing pvp, even if some may not like it. Therefore, and effective pvp system would probably draw more players as additional content.

when DDO went F2P, it started making far more money than before, By having more free content, you get more initial people, who then buy premium packs more frequently.
economics.

[Der_Incubo]

I would pay if there was an actual pvp system. I have never pvp'd in this game, as there really is no purpose, but generally pvp is what draws me to games.

DDO really isnt set up for guilds battling each other for supremacy, pk'ing in the streets, lootable gear, and honestly theres too **** many crybabys (or carebears if you will) in the game for some hardcore pvp.

[Chai]

Now to how they can make money with it? Are you serious? They could so easily drop in a system similar to GW1 and have at least something viable and fun. .

You had me up until here, where you state that taking a game that was not designed with PVP in mind, having it be live for 5 years, then saying they could easily drop a guild wars style system into it. I dont feel it would be so easily accomplished. Have you seen what it takes to acknowledge, verify, then fix a bug around these parts? This is many times an easier process than rewriting much of the code for this game to support a viable PVP system the majority would enjoy.

Impossible? No. Huge undertaking? Definately.

It would have been much easier to design the game from the ground up to support PVP, like guild wars.

[heyytoi]

Any "balancing" in pvp would mean unbalancing in the rest of the game, where casters are supposed to be better at doing burst damage than melees. Even in PnP, if you had an epic caster and an epic melee duking it out, the epic caster would annihilate the melee with little to no problems.

DnD was never meant to be a PvP game, and when "PvP" means "periodic bursts of fighting with lots of standing out of battle in between" then yes, the casters are going to win because they won't run out of resources. You would need to have a long battle in which the caster had no chances to rest, and even with that chances are a caster would save enough sp to kill the melee.

Your kiding right?

Did i said that to balance pvp youd have to touch pve??

Right now, only removing Dot spells would be a huge improvement

And when i say 'remove Dot spells' i mean like BB. Make the spell unavailable in PvP.

Making searing light/ disintegrate/ frost lance/ melf arrows auto guided like MM removed the actual skill part of pvp.. its all auto aim... cant dodge, cant do anything. Stay still and hope you kill him first *HOW FUN IS THAT*

Theres no real way of making melee's good in pvp. It will always be a caster/divine thing. But good melee's always had there place and did give me good challenges. Now its pointless to play a melee, even a good one.. you literaly have no chance againts casters/divine...

Anyway

Im just sad about how it all turned out. And maybe one day tbine will read the PvP forums and do soemthing!!

*One can hope*

[one85_db]

So from what I have seen here this is what I am thinking:

Group based PVP with Crystal Cove style battlegrounds/areas – players have to farm for: tokens to open PvP, for ingredients to use in blueprint recipes, and for credits to pay your way into PvP. Ingredients and credits can be purchased in DDO Store. Battle Area set by level and groups will only be allowed to battle similar levels - spanning no more than 3 levels. Level 20 TRs will be confined to only battling level 20s as if epic and only epic scrolls will have a chance of being rewarded. Other TRs will be counted as one level higher than their current level.

Killing other players in PvP gives a chance for a scroll to drop that is a blueprint of a named item that player has in their possession. This will encourage players to only attack like toons. The blueprint can be used in a crafting recipe and turned into a bound to character copy of the named item. The blueprint scrolls will also be bound to character. Blueprints will be usable only if the toon has ran the quest in which the item came from; encouraging PvE and P2P gaming.

XP rewards for winning teams based on objectives. Objective areas are: PvE, have shrines, are safe zones, have trash mobs to deal with, and are timed to open. The timer starts once the objective is completed in previous objective area for both teams and at least three deaths have occurred for one team. Points are awarded for fastest completion times. Completed objective areas have "wall of death (shroud style) to discourage groups from waiting in PvE areas in order to spend little or no time in PvP areas. Objectives and challenges will require a balanced party with random checks for: Str, Dex, Int, Cha, or Wis and random traps. Objectives and challenges are random in each instance but both team's objectives and challenges will be exactly the same.

Safe zones can ONLY be entered after death, so that people cannot leave the battlefield to escape danger or reset their hp/sp at will. Safe zones will reset a toon to full hp/sp ONCE between objectives; each subsequent trip will result in a penalty to the amount of HP/SP regained with a maximum of 3 uses. A fourth use will take the toon out of battle, forcing the player to wait until the next objective or completion. Entering or leaving a safe zone resets all buffs; including ship buffs.

PvP areas will be set up as such: true sight does not detect sneaking toons, no critical strikes regardless of fort; but sneak attack is allowed on everything including undead pale masters, non-dispellable Deathward to everyone inside of the instance, auto-target will be disabled, as well as seeking for spells, and no resurrection casting will be allowed.

The SOLO healer is dedicated before battle, is unable to participate in PvP (immune to taking and dealing damage) and can only cure/heal (no radiant bursts or auras); but, if on the winning team, has a choice of loot with a chance of a scroll after battle (if the opposite team's healer had a named item) and will share in the XP gains of the party. The healer also has automatic SP and turn undead regeneration. Self healing/repairing will not be allowed even via potions and wands, and Warforge will be healed as any other race. This will encourage the group to stay together.

Reputation systems based on actions; stats start at 0 and can go negative or positive. With groups such as: melee, ranged (arrows or thrown weapons), casting, healing, and party win/loss ratio. Reputation will be based on a toon's time in PvP and performance of their party. Once a toon is too far in negative reputation then that toon is put on a timer (like a raid timer) during which time the toon cannot participate in PvP battles and the negative rep will climb back up to a higher negative level. Therefore keeping the carless or arrogant players and poorly set-up toons from affecting the better ones as much, but not cutting them out completely. If, for instance, a caster begins to kill melees with spells and does not take out another caster often enough, the caster will suffer reputation loss. The same rules apply for melee as well. When a like class takes out a like class then their reputation will go up in that category. This system will help to promote a natural balance and a much more fun environment for PvP. Reputation will also be subject to decay.

That is all I can think of, and every time I read it I see something else to add or change. If you like it then feel free to help me out with ideas and suggestions.

[one85_db]

Wow! Dead thread??? Did I kill it?

[Yajerman01]

There has been several discussions throughout ddo's time to generate an open slayer/pvp area there is nothing new here and to discuss options has been hashed out upon deaf ears which always gets shot down by the true PVER's. There is nothing new in this thread as well. My response to the OP is:

Yes I would pay for a package for a slayer type area, yes I would pay for PVP in of itself.

[Kalari]

Wow! Dead thread??? Did I kill it?

Nah I just had nothing else to add right now your ideas seem fine and all like I said im not a pvp fan just a person who realistically knows that sometimes people are attracted to different aspects of the game.

Now if they can put in these ideas without it hurting my pve environment I would feel selfish being obstinate against it. Honestly I just wanted to have a thread that wasnt started off with hostility where those who have actual ideas to better pvp could come and say their peace. So far there has not been arguing which is a nice change and even those who are anti pvp have kept it civil. It's not like this thread will change anything but you never know and a structured post is more likely to get noticed then pages of "is not/ is too" type ****.*

[Yajerman01]

*One can hope*

Sorry Made, Havent you heard, there is a new forum partisan which can be spammed on all PVP interests wiping out and or locking entire forum opinions on PVP. Hope, like a melee in the pit is completely voided; they do not even give PVP innterested people a forum lavander stone to withstand the barrages.

[protokon]

they do not even give PVP innterested people a forum lavander stone to withstand the barrages.

I'll sell you one cheap :D

[heyytoi]

I'll sell you one cheap :D

Don't!!

[Monkeytoe]

While I agree that loot is a major incentive I have big concerns if gear and items where implemented that actually force me to participate in any PvP or GvG. While the basis currently is PvE and nearly everybody can participate I would vote against anything that shift this due to loot that is in anyway more then flavor and only achievable through PvP.
That would probably be very disappointing to most DDO players, including me.

For now... some new CTF maps be nice. I would definitely buy some new CTF maps. More maps in general. There are 4 effin PvP maps. Come on.

Maybe some renown? Make it scale by level difference, say 5 points for a victory over someone the same level, 4 for victory over someone a level lower, 2 for someone 3 levels lower, -1 for someone 6 levels lower... ;)

It isn't just PvP that's unbalanced, the whole game tends towards imbalances. It is a complex game, and complexity is naturally unpredictable and difficult. It is more balanced at low levels than at high, maybe because there is more potential for a player to really screw-up a character the higher level the character gets. Or maybe just because

Balancing how different character types interact with each other, looking at how different classes would directly compete with each other improves PvE as much as it improves PvP.

Also, every campaign I've ever played in has had some kind of PvP. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if the phrase "Tavern Brawl" is taken directly from an AD&D glossary. All of my friends have (for obvious reasons, I'm sure) had the same experience. Because I don't personally know any people that are likely to say PvP was never part of their D&D, I believe that the people who say PvP has no place in the D&D setting are misguided. You know what has no place in the D&D setting? Spell Points.

But I'd buy new maps. Even if I was the only one who had them.

[Postumus]

As a VIP I already pay for content, and PvP is part of that content.


Your argument that PvPers should 'put their money where their mouths are' is nonsensical since most of them already do by paying for content, VIP subs, and DDO items.

[Kalari]

Its not nonsensical when I petitioned for housing I used the logic that they could utilize the ddo store thus pulling in extra profits that way. Just because free to play brings in an influx of players does not mean the game does not need ways to continue to bring in revenue. It makes sense for them to make something that appeals to the masses and brings in potential revenue from it.


I am a VIP as well will continue to do so but just because I pay 15 bucks for this game a month does not mean that I don't want to see increase revenue potential and the best way to get any idea pushed threw is to figure out how it will work within the new ddo scheme and I am sorry coming across from a business approach is far better then asking for them to just do it because.

[one85_db]

As a VIP I already pay for content, and PvP is part of that content.


Your argument that PvPers should 'put their money where their mouths are' is nonsensical since most of them already do by paying for content, VIP subs, and DDO items.

I was VIP for about a year, then i went F2P. I still have access to PvP so how is it that people pay for PvP? They don't, no one does, and that is what the "title" of the thread is talking about. If PvP was made into a pack of maps, with expanded content and a reward system was put in, the the people who wanted it could pay for the pack, and VIPs would get it for free.

It could be an optional kind of like Korthos Island for people with vet status. You can participate if you want but it is not required. PvP will not be for favor ether, and so there will be no grinding needed for favor. If you look at my previous posts in this thread you can get an idea of what could happen for PvP. It encourages play but doesn't force it, it gives rewards but nothing unique, and it provides XP.

All that is there to draw in more players while also promoting PvE play and making Turbine money. As we all should know by now, when Turbine can make more money WE ALL BENEFIT from it. When Turbine makes more money from something then that is more money they can put back into it as well.

[Kalari]

His whole attitude is mind boggling to me. This is the second time Ive seen him post such things and my attitude is so what if your a vip. To add things into the game we need to have resources and to make sure that these additions pay off completely.

yes ddo went free to play but if you really think its free Ive got a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you cheap. Some how some way people are going to end up paying unless they really have the testicular fortitude to grind out the tp needed to unlock things to 20 and beyond.

So yes I think its very fair to ask those who want to see a pvp addition or overhaul to put their money where their mouth is. Even as a VIP I pay for any extra perks that make the game fun for me, its call support and without said support I would not expect to see more fun additions added to the game.

It just seriously boggles my mind the sheer amount of things I read on these boards. I may not like pvp but I sure as heck like seeing a healthy profitable game. I didnt invest years of my life into having fun in storm reach to see it falter and if a pvp overhaul can bring in dollars and still not invade on my pve fun I am for it. But I just cannot understand some of these selfish posters who dare argue that they shouldn't have to pay or that it shouldnt be added for a profit. Everything goes back to making money.