Madfloyd's TR idea

[grodon9999]

From the "Easy Button" thread:


At the risk of derailing the OP's thread, out of curiousity how many of you would have preferred that TR'ing restricts difficulty choice to Elite only? Or Hard/Elite the first time around & Elite the second+ ?

Personally I think this is a very interesting idea and wish we had contemplated implementing it this way.

Several of us think this would be the greatest thing to hit the game, leave the XP at 1.9 Million but require quests to be run on elite for TRs to get XP.

Devs - is this a possibility, actually being considered?

[Junts]

I endorse this idea with a simple nod to Lithic's point: Raids exempt from difficulty requirement (any 12 man instance isn't locked difficulty for tr characters, any 6 man instance is).

Another option, in deference to quests like devil assault that have unique loot that appears on lower difficulties and not higher ones, is that the restriction vanishes when you cap.

simple, easy..do it..please.

[dwelsh99]

From the "Easy Button" thread:

Devs - is this a possibility, actually being considered?

We can only hope.....

[Teharahma]

Sounds good to me :o.
Although I will dread doing Monastery runs on Elite without a rogue-ish char.

[Trillea]

Well Madfloyd never said that they would leave the XP at 1.9 million - only restrict the quest opening.

If the forced-elites WERE accompanied by lowering the XP needed to 1.9 mill, I would be all for it.

If not, I would be completely against it.

[Cam_Neely]

in theory it sounds nice, but in practice it wont be good for the game.

Limits grouping possibilities is not a way to expand the game imo.

[grodon9999]

Sounds good to me :o.
Although I will dread doing Monastery runs on Elite without a rogue-ish char.

Bring a rogue

[Molotov]

how about just legend builds for elite only and have xp cap at 3.1million xp

[EustaceTrevelyan]

Well Madfloyd never said that they would leave the XP at 1.9 million - only restrict the quest opening.

If the forced-elites WERE accompanied by lowering the XP needed to 1.9 mill, I would be all for it.

If not, I would be completely against it.

The elite thing is interesting, but considering that with normal XP to 20, you can skip over a LOT of the quests entirely, I don't see them doing this. And yes, no dev said anything about touching TR XP. They need to keep you in the game somehow;)

[grodon9999]

We'd see a LOT more TRing and Turbine would see a LOT more hearts bought from the store. When 36-point TRs are a painful and long grind you might was well go for the 20 Bigtops to get your tokens for the heart of wood. When it's something relatively fast and exciting I know I wouldn't wait to get back on the roller-coaster.

We've already been told we're getting no new epics and maybe 1 new raid this year. TR is the best thing to do if you're already equipped and this would jump-start many more on the TR path towards ubberness.

[grodon9999]

The elite thing is interesting, but considering that with normal XP to 20, you can skip over a LOT of the quests entirely, I don't see them doing this. And yes, no dev said anything about touching TR XP. They need to keep you in the game somehow;)

They would keep me in the game with 3 monk, 3 fighter, and 3 barb PLs on all my melees! :)

[Yaga_Nub]

As long as the XP was kept at 1.9 mil, I would be all for this.

[Junts]

Bring a rogue

Ive leveled in monestary elite w/o a rogue ..its not as hard as you'd think.

[BoBo2020]

Well Madfloyd never said that they would leave the XP at 1.9 million - only restrict the quest opening.

If the forced-elites WERE accompanied by lowering the XP needed to 1.9 mill, I would be all for it.

If not, I would be completely against it.

This - don't reduce opportunities for xp without resetting total required xp for a TR back to 1.9 million.

1st life - casual / normal / hard / elite options

2nd life - hard / elite options

3rd life and beyond - elite only

This would be challenging but very fun (but ONLY if total xp needed to cap is reset - otherwise completely unrealistic).

[Battery]

I endorse this idea with a simple nod to Lithic's point: Raids exempt from difficulty requirement (any 12 man instance isn't locked difficulty for tr characters, any 6 man instance is).

Another option, in deference to quests like devil assault that have unique loot that appears on lower difficulties and not higher ones, is that the restriction vanishes when you cap.

simple, easy..do it..please.

I think the OP is saying lower difficulties would be open to TR but only elite would give xp.

[Siro]

This - don't reduce opportunities for xp without resetting total required xp for a TR back to 1.9 million.

1st life - casual / normal / hard / elite options

2nd life - hard / elite options

3rd life and beyond - elite only

This would be challenging but very fun (but ONLY if total xp needed to cap is reset - otherwise completely unrealistic).

I would be fine with this. But I would hope someone would run xp totals to ensure one can still reach 20 without doing too much in the way of repeating quests...

[Gol]

This might be fine... until you want to raid with friends/pugs on your TRs.

Think of the consequences... Guild raid night. If 1 person brings a TR (and what are the odds of this not happening?), you have to do all elite raids. I'm not saying this is bad to some degree, but to force you to do guild raid night on elite? That's going to hurt, a lot.

Ok, say you're not into the guild scene, but you've TRed because you're a decent player. You want to get 20 completions or get some more loot, so you look (or form) a PuG raid... on elite. Yeah, right. Odds of that succeeding are virtually zero.

In principle, the idea of always-elite for a TR toon while leveling and on the standard 1.9m XP curve is a decent idea. Any time you have to pug or do a raid, it's bound to be an absolute disaster.

[mws2970]

This might be fine... until you want to raid with friends/pugs on your TRs.

Think of the consequences... Guild raid night. If 1 person brings a TR (and what are the odds of this not happening?), you have to do all elite raids. I'm not saying this is bad to some degree, but to force you to do guild raid night on elite? That's going to hurt, a lot.

Ok, say you're not into the guild scene, but you've TRed because you're a decent player. You want to get 20 completions or get some more loot, so you look (or form) a PuG raid... on elite. Yeah, right. Odds of that succeeding are virtually zero.

In principle, the idea of always-elite for a TR toon while leveling and on the standard 1.9m XP curve is a decent idea. Any time you have to pug or do a raid, it's bound to be an absolute disaster.

What if raids were excluded from this?

[fluffybunnywilson]

From the "Easy Button" thread:



Several of us think this would be the greatest thing to hit the game, leave the XP at 1.9 Million but require quests to be run on elite for TRs to get XP.

Devs - is this a possibility, actually being considered?


I would love that. Leveling to 20 on a TR is much easier because of the outstanding gear that I have on the second and later lives, but also because I'm going into level 10 quests only when I hit level 11 and I'm only going into level 16 quests when I'm level 17 because I don't want to "use up" all of the high level XP.

1.9 million XP would mean that I can do whatever quest I want, whenever I want.
Always entering on Elite would mean that I end up with much more challenging quests - especially when I solo.

/signed with vigor.

[SyrianSB]

/signed

Absolutely brilliant idea. Would reduce the grind and increase the fun of TR-ing :)

[Gol]

What if raids were excluded from this?
Raids, Amrath, Sor'jek... Raids are the biggest problem, but it's a little more systemic than raids exclusively. Some quests ought never be run on elite aside from once for favor (I'm looking at you, Bastion of Power!)

[Cauthey]

in theory it sounds nice, but in practice it wont be good for the game.

Limits grouping possibilities is not a way to expand the game imo.

^^ This.

[Zeruell]

At the risk of derailing the OP's thread, out of curiousity how many of you would have preferred that TR'ing restricts difficulty choice to Elite only? Or Hard/Elite the first time around & Elite the second+ ?

Personally I think this is a very interesting idea and wish we had contemplated implementing it this way.

The devil is in the details. Are we talking about locking TR'd characters out of running those difficulties, or reducing their XP earnings in these instances to zero? The former is right out, the latter is a workable idea.

My ideal would be to add a static modifier to a TR's character level for purposes of calculating XP rewards -- CL + N for a second-life TR, and CL + N + M for third-life and beyond. This allows TRs to run in any difficulty, but heavily incentivizes them to run content above their character level (effectively giving answer to "bonus experience for running over-level content" if TR experience requirements are lowered).

The quandary here is deciding just what constitutes reasonable values for N and M in exchange for doing away with inflated XP requirements. Maybe this idea is favorable to MadFloyd's suggestion, maybe it's less desirable -- I'm interested in what people will think of it, though.

Grouping ramifications also need to be considered, if the discussion leans more toward XP reduction -- would TR-modified-level-based reward penalties apply only to the character, or to the whole group?

EDIT: Another potential strike that I see against (or possibly even for) the "Elite only" direction: would TRing serve as a character-localized "VIP-light" in that it guarantees access to elite difficulty? Just something else to consider.

[barryman5000]

To keep the grouping options from being a problem why not do an xp penalty that affects only tr's? Say a 50% penalty for running a quest on normal and 25% for running on hard? It'd still make it possible to group with others and make it still a much better option to run things on elite. Also it would let tr's play with friends that aren't and be able to keep up in level so long as they favor elite difficulty.

I can imagine on the xp sheet that the penalty would be "You're better than this(-50%): 123xp."

It would also make those that don't want to run everything on elite still be able to run normal and hard but with penalties(and more grind). Keep the xp cap at 1.9mil through all lives and I would love this idea ALOT.

The powerleveling elite groups will be able to cap easy but without all the pointless running of the same quests 10 times. It'll just be more difficult quests not more of the same quests.

[Missing_Minds]

Well Madfloyd never said that they would leave the XP at 1.9 million - only restrict the quest opening.

If the forced-elites WERE accompanied by lowering the XP needed to 1.9 mill, I would be all for it.

If not, I would be completely against it.

Restricting quest opening would be dumb, honestly. But only gaining XP for H/E (TR1) and E (TR2+) would be much better.

It would also remove the issue of running quests and new content for loot.

There should be challenge, but there should also be simple joy/fun as well.

[grodon9999]

Raids should be except from this.

[Gnorbert]

Actually... a group of guildies and I are doing this on non-TRs. As a static group we are doing every quest once only on elite. we only use what we find.... no twinking at all and no auction house or brokers. So far it's been a lot of fun. It's a little slow going since we are playing as a static group of 5 and only play when we're all together.

Obviously it's not currently an option for TRS because the total XP just would be there for a Legend character. but I highly recommend it for any static group of new chars.

[BoBo2020]

What if raids were excluded from this?

Hmm... I see the concern and I agree that raids could automatically be excluded.

Pugs would be a problem though.

What if TRs only received xp from quests done at the appropriate level?

They could pug or adventure with guildies to have fun and get loot but only advance when they quested on hard/elite.

[Diib]

I agree this is a fine idea, if the xp needed on a tr life is reduced. I also have questions. For non-VIPs how does a TR open elite difficulty? Do they have to run hard and normal for no xp?

[fluffybunnywilson]

On further reflection, it occurs to me that this feature should probably turn itself off once the TR'd character hits 20.

There isn't much difference between a well geared TR'd level 20 character and a well geared first life level 20 character. It's levels 11-19 that have the enormous difference in power between a TR'd character and a first life character.

And levels 1-10 are easy enough that having to enter quests on Elite shouldn't completely cripple most characters.

[grodon9999]

Raids, Amrath, Sor'jek... Raids are the biggest problem, but it's a little more systemic than raids exclusively. Some quests ought never be run on elite aside from once for favor (I'm looking at you, Bastion of Power!)

I'm sorry, if you're a TR and you can't handle Sorjek or Amrath Elite (in a group, nobody's asking you to solo) then you just suck. You also wouldn't HAVE to run this stuff for XP anyway as there'd be plenty.

[Kza]

Awesome idea as an option, not so good for many ppl if "forced" on em. So i want it as an option you say yes or no to when you TR. If ppl want to invest time and go slwoer all/any diff let em do it. If ppl want to skip all n h and have a more brutal challenge on e, reward em with less xp needed! But let it be an option.

[cdbd3rd]

So... *pulls out set of clip-on devil horns to play Devil's Advocate with*

What y'all are asking for is to have the game limit your ability to enter quests to specific difficulties (which you can do voluntarily)?

Isn't this akin to PDs/RPers/PvPers asking for game changes to suit their specific playstyles?

:confused:

Jus' askin.... ;)

[Kza]

I'm sorry, if you're a TR and you can't handle Sorjek or Amrath Elite (in a group, nobody's asking you to solo) then you just suck. You also wouldn't HAVE to run this stuff for XP anyway as there'd be plenty.

Sad you see it this way. Why force your playstyle on others and tell other they suck? Nicer let you play the game as you like and others play as they like.

[LafoMamone]

It could be good if the grouping question could be resolved in a satisfactory manner for all parties involved. I like the idea of difficulty lock, but it would be much harder for multiple TRs to find groups on a regular basis, and that is certainly not good at all.

[Voldomar]

/no
Having less choices is always bad. And it's bad for grouping

However an xp penalty if you run quests at lower difficulties could get the job done nicely...

[AcesWylde]

When you TR your toon can he then open quests on elite like VIPs can?

I'd hate to have to grind out norm/hard with no XP, lol.

[grodon9999]

in theory it sounds nice, but in practice it wont be good for the game.

Limits grouping possibilities is not a way to expand the game imo.

I actually disagree. Vets with new toons shouldn't have much of an issue running elites with twinked TRs.

New players don't learn a friggin thing running with zerging TRs who kill everything for them. New players running with other non-TRs will force them to learn things on their own which will make them better players.

[mws2970]

Raids should be except from this.

Agreed that if this were implemented, that raids should be excluded.

Honestly, I'm not really sure which side of the fence I am on here. I really don't mind the XP grind either and am ok with running quests n/h/e. I also am running my first double TR with other guildies who TR'ed as well, so it doesn't feel "grindy" because I am having a lot of fun. I guess this makes me neutral. If it happened, I'd adjust to it like every other change. It would not make me want to TR any more or less than I already do.

[Lithic]

Bad Idea to lock out TRs completely from Casual-Hard. Just put a penalty for them so they get almost no xp on those lower difficulties. And only if the XP is dropped to 1.9mill of course.

[steelblueskies]

no until far more details are fleshed out.
the only thing he explicitly stated was an inquiry into how people would respond to a tr having access to elite only or hard/elite only.
i can see it now. noone bothers to ask, it goes live, and you find out you cannot open elite on a tr without running normal and hard, being vip, or using a store item. but you are restricted to elite only until 20. boy wouldn't that drum up some sales and revenue!

never sign something you haven't read.
given madfloyd's thoughts aren't known on this, that could be what you get out of it.

side thoughts in that - coyle i'm looking at you.(on elite)

the experience requirement modification wasn't something floyd mentioned at all, just responders in the other thread.

[grodon9999]

Sad you see it this way. Why force your playstyle on others and tell other they suck? Nicer let you play the game as you like and others play as they like.

Forcing my playstyle of not-sucking is a bad thing? So encouraging the mindless NNNNNN/H/E/C grinding we have now is a good thing?

[GreenGurgler]

When you TR your toon can he then open quests on elite like VIPs can?

I'd hate to have to grind out norm/hard with no XP, lol.

I was wondering the same thing.

Not everyone who TR's is a VIP. I am an Ex-VIP Fremium player. The ONLY Thing I miss is the ability to open quests on hard/elite.

So what would people in this position do? If we only get xp for running elite, but cant open on elite.......

[Gol]

I'm sorry, if you're a TR and you can't handle Sorjek or Amrath Elite (in a group, nobody's asking you to solo) then you just suck. You also wouldn't HAVE to run this stuff for XP anyway as there'd be plenty.
If the bar for not "just sucking" is being able to do Iron Maw on Elite, then I fully welcome the label. It was doable before Dungeon Alert, but I have problems with that quest on normal, TR or not.

[Lithic]

When you TR your toon can he then open quests on elite like VIPs can?

I'd hate to have to grind out norm/hard with no XP, lol.

Very good point lol. If this change comes to pass in any shape or form, at the very least turbine would need to put hard/elite opening on first run in the store.

[amethystdragon]

I think the idea sounds interesting, but I think it might hurt more than it will help. Please let me explain, before you get upset.

If TR's only got XP from running things on hard or elite, I think that it would put a stop from experienced TR's from being willing to help new players learn the game.

My son is currently trying to learn the game. He runs with me and a fellow guild member. The fellow guild members runs a TR toon with us. Currently we are just running things on normal, as I said my son is trying to learn the game; and there can be a big diffrence between the allowable learning curve in normal and in elite. If TR's could only get XP from elite, we would no longer be able to run together. The fellow guild member wants to get XP but at the same time to be able to help a new player how to play and be a good player.

This is my thoughts on the subject, take them as you will.

[grodon9999]

If TR's only got XP from running things on hard or elite, I think that it would put a stop from experienced TR's from being willing to help new players learn the game.

This actually happens? it gets in the way of the zerging.

[Monkey_Archer]

I love the idea, but with 2 conditions:

- ftp/premium players would need to be able to open elite when playing TRs without purchasing endless unlocks or requiring VIP groups

- total xp required would need to be reduced somewhat due to missing out on all that first time bonus xp


Perhaps as mentioned, a better idea would just be to limit xp gain from normal/hard... say: -90% on normal, -50% hard, and full xp on elite..

[Gol]

If TR's only got XP from running things on hard or elite, I think that it would put a stop from experienced TR's from being willing to help new players learn the game.10% xp penalty and dungeon scaling already did this.

[voodoogroves]

I'm sorry, if you're a TR and you can't handle Sorjek or Amrath Elite (in a group, nobody's asking you to solo) then you just suck. You also wouldn't HAVE to run this stuff for XP anyway as there'd be plenty.
As long as you could still run normal/hard (even casual) but with little to no XP. Don't lock them out of normal/hard ... but don't reward it.

I think if you told all TRs that they'd have to grind runes in Prey only on elite a part of them would die inside.

[grodon9999]

I was wondering the same thing.

Not everyone who TR's is a VIP. I am an Ex-VIP Fremium player. The ONLY Thing I miss is the ability to open quests on hard/elite.

So what would people in this position do? If we only get xp for running elite, but cant open on elite.......

They would have to be able to open on elite in order for this to work.

[Kmnh]

The few times I had newbies on my TR parties they ran away screaming and calling me a meanie :(

[grodon9999]

As long as you could still run normal/hard (even casual) but with little to no XP. Don't lock them out of normal/hard ... but don't reward it.

I think if you told all TRs that they'd have to grind runes in Prey only on elite a part of them would die inside.

yeah, you'd still be able to flag or do loot-runs on the lower difficulty settings so I imagine some would still chose this. Bastion of power pays such **** XP that you'd only do it once for the flag anyway.

[Asketes]

I have ZERO intentions of running TRs if I will be FORCED to run stuff only on elite to attain XP.

[Asketes]

I'm sorry, if you're a TR and you can't handle Sorjek or Amrath Elite (in a group, nobody's asking you to solo) then you just suck. You also wouldn't HAVE to run this stuff for XP anyway as there'd be plenty.

No.

[Zeruell]

I have ZERO intentions of running TRs if I will be FORCED to run stuff only on elite to attain XP.

I can understand this being a polarizing topic -- how would you feel about a TR-modified character level for computing XP gain?

[Thorboar]

My main is on his on his 2nd TR....and I was planning on not going for a 3rd.....too much of a grind and I dont have the time. But for long term, I would consider completionist....with this idea.

[Asketes]

I can understand this being a polarizing topic -- how would you feel about a TR-modified character level for computing XP gain?

Can you elaborate a bit? I'm at work so I can't read through the whole thread in detail, unfortunately.


Personally, I only slow down when I hit lvl 17/18 on my TR's.

It's only those last few levels that take a while longer.


I'm not opposed to offering an EXTRA benefit to running on elite, but it will completely ruin my experience if I'm forced to only run one difficulty.

[Missing_Minds]

I actually disagree. Vets with new toons shouldn't have much of an issue running elites with twinked TRs.

New players don't learn a friggin thing running with zerging TRs who kill everything for them. New players running with other non-TRs will force them to learn things on their own which will make them better players.

Meaning that vet twinked TRs aren't teaching a dam thing to help the game grow. At least from your description.

[Phidius]

no until far more details are fleshed out.
the only thing he explicitly stated was an inquiry into how people would respond to a tr having access to elite only or hard/elite only...

Agreed. In response to MadFloyd's question, anything that "forces" me to play the game in a particular manner is not welcome.

For example, only being able to run things on Elite...

The entire game seems to be based on the idea that Grind = Good, not just TR xp.


If the bar for not "just sucking" is being able to do Iron Maw on Elite, then I fully welcome the label...

Shr Pls...

[Kushiel]

From the "Easy Button" thread:



Several of us think this would be the greatest thing to hit the game, leave the XP at 1.9 Million but require quests to be run on elite for TRs to get XP.

Devs - is this a possibility, actually being considered?

And several of us who've commented do not want this. Don't force playstyles on people who are not going to have fun and enjoy the world running it in the same way that you would... and can already do so for yourself.

Unnecessary, horrible idea.

Dev's - Don't force unenjoyable methods/requirements onto people who are playing the game, leveling at their own pace and in their own ways, and are experiencing the available content for the *fun* of doing it how they want.

[Gkar]

I think it would be a real problem for grouping.

Also the norm runs are kind of needed for the extra xp grind.

Besides, I'm not sure that a twinked out 32pt build is THAT different in ability from a twinked out TR1. Certainly below L11 they are identical. After that, raid loot starts to be a factor, but not an overwhelming one.

I'm currently in the process of levelling my long time 28pt built in 2006 mule from L12 where I parked him due to sucking when GH came out. I twinked him up with +6 stat items and festival icyburst holy of pg weapons and he is destroying content. The festival icyburst weapons really do pretty much the same damage in most non raid situations as if he had been carrying a MinII, maybe a hair less than a LitII.

Similarily when my L2 TR2 is destroying the harbor, its not because he's a TR2, its because of he is outfitted head to toe in uber twink BtA gear like the ML2 screaming/force/acid weapons from the Sharn line, or the ML0 +4 (and now +5 I think) stat items from other new quest chains.

It's the twinking, not the TR that makes these guys dangerous.

[Cam_Neely]

I actually disagree. Vets with new toons shouldn't have much of an issue running elites with twinked TRs.

New players don't learn a friggin thing running with zerging TRs who kill everything for them. New players running with other non-TRs will force them to learn things on their own which will make them better players.

This is not about vets vs noob.

This means that many PUGS will now be limited to TRs now. People complain about the posting that say 'link BB for shroud' now you will see that for all levels of play. It means that its less likely that I can get on a random non twinked alt and find a party as easy. I cant as easily hop on the same non twinked alt and level with friends TRs.

It means at the margin its going to be harder to find groups, that's not a good thing.

I think it would be cool, and would be happy to do this on my TRs, but i dont think its good for the game in the long term, so it should not happen.

[Malky]

How about something like this :

Cap stays at 1.9 MXp for all lives

First TR : -50% exp on normal
2+ TRs : -75% exp on normal, -50% on hard, hard difficulty granted for all quests

[Zeruell]

Can you elaborate a bit? I'm at work so I can't read through the whole thread in detail, unfortunately.


Personally, I only slow down when I hit lvl 17/18 on my TR's.

It's only those last few levels that take a while longer.


I'm not opposed to offering an EXTRA benefit to running on elite, but it will completely ruin my experience if I'm forced to only run one difficulty.

I posted it earlier in the thread, so chances are it was easy to miss. :)

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3773287&postcount=23

[voodoogroves]

I have ZERO intentions of running TRs if I will be FORCED to run stuff only on elite to attain XP.

So how about we go the other way?

(1) Leave XP caps where they are
(2) Decrease XP on TR1 for Casual/Normal and TR2 for Hard as well
(3) Increase XP for elite for TR1 by one amount and for TR2 for another amount, in-line with the XP to level increases


That way someone could run normal a bazillion times ... but one run on elite may be worth more than 3 or 4 or more normal.

Less repetition if you run elite. For me, the pain of TRing isn't the XP. It's the repetition and grindiness of getting that XP. I like Wiz King, Shadow Crypt, VON5, etc. Running those a few times is fun, but honestly banking a whole level on one quest by running it 10 times is kinda lame and boring.

If I got more XP (relative) for running it on elite, I'd definitely run more elite content and less normal farming.

[thenalim]

/signed

xp cap 1.9mil and only exp from hard/elite on 2nd life and elite on 3d life and beyond.
Dont lock people out from any difficulty though.
Sounds like a solid idea.

[Nospheratus]

How about something like this :

Cap stays at 1.9 MXp for all lives

First TR : -50% exp on normal
2+ TRs : -75% exp on normal, -50% on hard, hard difficulty granted for all quests

My thoughts exactly!

[fluffybunnywilson]

And several of us who've commented do not want this. Don't force playstyles on people who are not going to have fun and enjoy the world running it in the same way that you would... and can already do so for yourself.

Turbine is already forcing a playstyle on TR's currently by changing the XP required to cap to over 4 million while leaving the XP penalties for

This is not adding a playstyle requirement. This is changing the playstyle requirement from grind (4 million XP) to challenge (open on Elite).

You might not like that change and you have every right to your opinion on the merits of that change, but please don't try to pretend that anyone is trying to cram that playstyle done a player's throat unless you also acknowledge that the same exact thing is already being done with the existing TR system.

The ONLY difference is that the current system forces players to run quests that are easy (because they have to delay quests until they are higher level in order to save up the XP that they'll need for higher levels) while the new system will force players to run quests that are harder.

[talyor]

I like the idea if the the XP requirement drops but think that they should penalize anything other than elite maybe hard -25%, normal -50%, and casual -75% xp because really XP should be based on how hard a quest is to do and as a TR you are not really gaining experiance (learning) by doing somthing easy.

[AcesWylde]

1st TR - ability to open quests on hard, remove 1st run XP bonus for casual/normal

if they did this they wouldn't have to force TRs to only higher difficulties, they just wouldn't bother with the lower difficulties anyway

2nd TR - ability to open quests on elite, remove 1st run XP bonus for casual/normal/hard, lower TR XP penalty?

Would still probably run some quests just on hard, just wouldn't get as much xp for them the 1st run

[Razcar]

I'm positive in this implementation:

XP scale changed for all TR lives to cap at 1 900 000
TR's can open and play quests at any difficulty setting
On your first TR, Hero, in any quest on Normal difficulty you suffer a -50% XP penalty
On your second TR, Legend, and any subsequent lives, you suffer -75% XP on Normal, and -50% on Hard settings
Result: Less grind, more skill needed, you can still run any diff you want but harder diffs are much better. More fun, more challenge.

[grodon9999]

Meaning that vet twinked TRs aren't teaching a dam thing to help the game grow. At least from your description.

I believe you become a better player when you learn most of the stuff on your own.

[Asketes]

dunno, I suppose I've never had any problems leveling or TR'ing.


are we talking a substantial difference for elites?


guess we can put it this way: Generally if I'm running elite, i'm at the level of the elite quest and generally it's a pug. Sure you can solo elites but sometimes your group makes stuff more difficult than it would be if you were by yourself. Thus making it more of a hassle than running a quest on normal 8 times.


I'm trying to make sure that this doesn't hinder leveling in a way that makes sure you don't enjoy random pugs (sure some suck, but some are pretty cool). I don't want to be put off by only being incentivized into running elites.


Does this make sense? It's QUITE possible I am missing something; if so please share. Like I mentioned I'm at work so I'm trying to capture as much as possible about the idea here as well as maintain focus at work (lol).

[andbr22]

If they give Xp penalty for normal / hard, and exclude Raid from this meachanic i could agree for it.
Accualy doing everything only at elite i think it would be bigger hit than 2 or 4 times xp. Especially since I would love to see how lv 1 wizard/sorcer would solo quests at elite (and building Amarath elite quest group) (swing your weapon a bit more maybe you give him a cold)...

[le_goat]

Oh ...an easy button for TR's.

wheres all the haters?

[Cyr]

I would very much welcome this with the following caveats...

1.9 million XP to cap.

TR's can still enter and complete lower difficulty levels, but it just does not count or very minimally counts for xp purposes...this MUST INCLUDE EXPLORER AREAS otherwise it would be easy grinds of orchard and the vale explorer areas...ie explorers are intentionally designed to be fairly easy. It's a bad idea to make TRing act like a penalty on getting raid loot which this would do if they were just prevented from doing anything but elite raids (on a TR2+).



Also, a mechanic to actually encourage people play a diverse amount of content could be put in as this would reduce the running of certain quests 10 times because of their extremely high xp/time ratios. A sample mechanic would be as follows...

TR's completing a quest on hard/elite (if TR1 or just elite if TR2) increase the times completed counter by two instead of one.

Another alternative is to add additional challenge to elite mode of the most run for xp quests in game such as shadow crypt...this should only be done after data is gathered for people's playing habits after the new TR leveling system is released as people are probably going to be much less likely to run 10 monastary runs on elite then they are on normal now for example.

[grodon9999]

Also the norm runs are kind of needed for the extra xp grind.

No, they are not. it would be the same 1.9 Million regardless.

[Aaxeyu]

Reposting my from the other thread:

I think that would be awesome!

I suggested it in a TR thread a while back, where there also is some discussion about it: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3483929#post3483929. The main aspect of that suggestion was however to remove the arbitary learning disorder that TRs have. It doesn't add any good.


PS. Reading peoples concerns about it I think it might be better to put a huge exp penalty on normal and hard quests for TRs instead of restricting them completely or removing all exp.


It would definetly make me return to the game, as the boredom of TR was what made me take a break (twice now).

[Waylayer]

I have to agree with Asketes - no TR's if I have to do just elites.

As I posted in the "Easy Button". I won't have raid gear or epic anything - because I don't do raids. This means I have no amazing equipment to step into at whatever level greensteel becomes equipable.

Yes, I could choose to group. I could choose to do raids; but that is not how I enjoy playing the game.

I am all for making the TR experience easier for those of you who are are supporting this idea; but not at the expense of making the game less enjoyable for me.

Give TR's a bonus if they have never done the quest before and are doing it on hard TR1 or elite TR2+; but leave my gimpy "i run everything on normal" self, alone.

[Nospheratus]

I love this whole idea! And to be honest, THIS is probably one of the best reasons!

Result: Less grind, more skill needed, you can still run any diff you want but harder diffs are much better. More fun, more challenge.

This change would make it so TRed people actually have more skill than others that don't have such intense dedication! :)

[grodon9999]

Oh ...an easy button for TR's.

wheres all the haters?

So in your world grind equals challenge?

[Asketes]

I can see how this will DEFINITELY appeal to a good amount of people.


We could always settle in the middle:

When you TR and create your new character, you can select one of two leveling paths.

Path A requires elite for full exp with an extra bonus for elite and an XP cap of 1.9 million

Path B leaves the settings where they are at


This allows a bigger majority to enjoy what they would prefer.

You can NEVER please 100% of the people 100% of the time, but pleasing the biggest majority most of the time seems to be comprised of a compromise.

[Tobril]

(in a group, nobody's asking you to solo)

I solo a lot when TRing.

/not signed


I would, however, support a bigger bonus for doing hard/elite quests. (make the math work out to be comparable to how the OP has suggested)

[Asketes]

I have to agree with Asketes - no TR's if I have to do just elites.

As I posted in the "Easy Button". I won't have raid gear or epic anything - because I don't do raids. This means I have no amazing equipment to step into at whatever level greensteel becomes equipable.

Yes, I could choose to group. I could choose to do raids; but that is not how I enjoy playing the game.

I am all for making the TR experience easier for those of you who are are supporting this idea; but not at the expense of making the game less enjoyable for me.

Give TR's a bonus if they have never done the quest before and are doing it on hard TR1 or elite TR2+; but leave my gimpy "i run everything on normal" self, alone.


see my next post.

I'd probably test it out, I just really tend to enjoy Pugs and don't want that to be taken away from me. I tend to find quite a few new players that turn out to be really solid after a bit of learning.

[grodon9999]

I can see how this will DEFINITELY appeal to a good amount of people.


We could always settle in the middle:

When you TR and create your new character, you can select one of two leveling paths.

Path A requires elite for full exp with an extra bonus for elite and an XP cap of 1.9 million

Path B leaves the settings where they are at


This allows a bigger majority to enjoy what they would prefer.

You can NEVER please 100% of the people 100% of the time, but pleasing the biggest majority most of the time seems to be comprised of a compromise.

That could work also.

[Esserbe]

I'm against this, since it limits grouping options. Not everyone with TR characters run in TR/veteran only zerg groups, some of us play with friends who aren't the most skilled or geared players. Forcing elite is a bad idea, even with the cap back at 1.9.

[Cyr]

I'm positive in this implementation:

XP scale changed for all TR lives to cap at 1 900 000
TR's can open and play quests at any difficulty setting
On your first TR, Hero, in any quest on Normal difficulty you suffer a -50% XP penalty
On your second TR, Legend, and any subsequent lives, you suffer -75% XP on Normal, and -50% on Hard settings
Result: Less grind, more skill needed, you can still run any diff you want but harder diffs are much better. More fun, more challenge.

Three additions to make sure the emphasis stays on challenging content being run whenever the concern is XP and not loot or being social with friends/guild.

On your first TR, Hero, in any quest on Normal or Casual Difficulty you never get a first time bonus and it uses the full completion count to determine xp based upon repeating the quest.
On your second TR, Legend, in any quest on Normal, Hard, or Casual Difficulty you never get a first time bonus and it uses the full completion count to determine xp based upon repeating the quest.
On any TR you gain -75% XP from explorer zones.

[Kriogen]

1. No. I sense flame wars and other things if you do that.

2. Only if it's an option. When you TR your char, you get an option:
a. old style. Just like now. Must get more X to level up.
b. new style. You need the same XP as none-TR, but you get XP only if you do Hard+

[Missing_Minds]

I believe you become a better player when you learn most of the stuff on your own.

I believe that could lead to a bigger ego, esp on forums, let alone a more frustrated player who won't stick around.

A helpful attitude and a willingness to explain things can lead a "noob" to become a good player in a much faster time frame which in turn is able to help teach others and may be willing to help others along as they themselves were. (yeah, it is idealistic, I know.) The growth curve is higher, but limited by the attitude of ALL players involved.

[mws2970]

I can see how this will DEFINITELY appeal to a good amount of people.


We could always settle in the middle:

When you TR and create your new character, you can select one of two leveling paths.

Path A requires elite for full exp with an extra bonus for elite and an XP cap of 1.9 million

Path B leaves the settings where they are at


This allows a bigger majority to enjoy what they would prefer.

You can NEVER please 100% of the people 100% of the time, but pleasing the biggest majority most of the time seems to be comprised of a compromise.

What if the OP was implemented along with allowing TR's to keep previously eaten/read tomes? Or is that too much of an easy button?

[Kushiel]

How about something like this :

Cap stays at 1.9 MXp for all lives

First TR : -50% exp on normal
2+ TRs : -75% exp on normal, -50% on hard, hard difficulty granted for all quests

Loss of XP (bonus) for Deaths.
Loss of XP (bonus) for Re-entry (if it actually happens - I play to avoid that).
Loss of XP for repetitions, that increments upwards already (which I personally hate because there are quests I would like to run and still get XP from - and there are a broad range of quests I actively avoid).

Loss of XP if having a higher level other player in party.
Loss of XP for being above level, that increments upwards.

50% loss of XP in a wilderness zone for being just 1 level above the (arbitrary) max level... and it increments up.

For my style and enjoyment of playing in the world, the last frelling thing I need or want are *more* onerous concepts of achievements, challenge and imposed limitations.

[Gkar]

I can see how this will DEFINITELY appeal to a good amount of people.


We could always settle in the middle:

When you TR and create your new character, you can select one of two leveling paths.

Path A requires elite for full exp with an extra bonus for elite and an XP cap of 1.9 million

Path B leaves the settings where they are at


This allows a bigger majority to enjoy what they would prefer.

You can NEVER please 100% of the people 100% of the time, but pleasing the biggest majority most of the time seems to be comprised of a compromise.



There is brilliance in this approach

[Ridag]

I'd be a 20 life caster in less than half the time.

As for Monastery on Elite, you'd never even have to do it, you'd hit 1.9 mil xp in Elite Vale if not before.

[Gkar]

No, they are not. it would be the same 1.9 Million regardless.

That's if it was reduced back to 1.9mil xp. As has been pointed out, that's a player add on, it is not what Madfloyd suggested.

[voodoogroves]

Are we circling in on a semi-common system or sets of systems?



=================
OPTION 1: Lower cap, remove or greatly reduce lower-difficulty XP

(1) Set XP limit to 1.9
(2) Reduce or remove XP on Casual/Normal for TR1s; allow TR1s to open hard directly even if not VIP
(3) Reduce or rmeove XP on Casual/Normal/HArd for TR2+; allow TR2+ to open elite directly even if not VIP
(4) Do not lock out Casual/Normal - allow loot runs, flagging, etc. to still occur but with little or no benefit if on a low difficulty
(5) Raids are not impacted by this



=================
OPTION 2: Keep higher XP caps, reduce lower-difficulty XP (not remove) and also add a bonus to higher difficulty XP to encourage TRs to run those difficulties

(1) Keep XP limit where it is
(2) Reduce XP for Casual/Normal on TR1s; add bonus for hard/elite
(3) Reduce XP for Casual/Normal/Hard for TR2+; add bonus for elite
(4) Raids are not impacted by this

This allows people to TR by multi-running normal, may be suitable for some.



=================
RIDER OPTION A: Many TRs near cap are perfectly capable of participating in epics; allow them entry into epic dungeons.

(1) Allow TRs early entry into epics



=================
RIDER OPTION B: Allow TR characters to choose their path

(1) When character is TR'd allow them to check the "hardcore" mode which would put them in the lower-XP-to-cap scale but also change the rewards to favor elite/hard. Normal mode would remain as it is today.



=================
RIDER OPTION C: Allow TR characters to keep tomes

(1) When a character is TR'd, consumed tomes are kept.

[Alavatar]

I'm positive in this implementation:

XP scale changed for all TR lives to cap at 1 900 000
TR's can open and play quests at any difficulty setting
On your first TR, Hero, in any quest on Normal difficulty you suffer a -50% XP penalty
On your second TR, Legend, and any subsequent lives, you suffer -75% XP on Normal, and -50% on Hard settings

Result: Less grind, more skill needed, you can still run any diff you want but harder diffs are much better. More fun, more challenge.

I like this.

[Chai]

Personaly I agree with this concept, and I imagine most veteran players will as well. Good luck implementing it where the majority would be satisfied however. Turbine has already made their bed on this issue, by making the game too easy to play the first time around, to the point where a player can make it to 20 with minimal learning experience.

A new player can play the game and get to level 20 without learning much about the D&D aspects of the game, which includes building characters, removing debuffs, breaking DR, etc...the list goes on. Getting to 20 does not imply the toon his geared or built well, and it also doesnt imply vast knowledge of the game. I do know most vets agree with me on this through the myriad of threads over the years about 190 hp 25% fort rogues, people being one shotted by bosses, etc.

These players have the ability to TR, not because they are high end players or good metagamers, but simply because they made it to level 20. Using level 20 as the sole indicator of locking a player out of all content save elite will cause alot of ruckus on newer players who TR their first toon.

Most of the veteran players can handle this and would enjoy it, but the first time cappers who TR would likely find it too hard. If there is a happy medium that can be found, like one suggestion I read where players can choose this option over whats currently implemented, this would be better than locking all TRs into elite only difficulty.

From a business sense, ramping the difficulty of the game from "not hard at all" to "extreme" (on the high end) is not a good business decision. There needs to be an adequate learning curve for people to make it to 20 the first time for this to happen. Right now the only indicator of elligability to TR is making it to level 20, and this is no indicator that a player will or will not be able to play through elite only content, especially at the high end.

[Zeruell]

I'm positive in this implementation:

XP scale changed for all TR lives to cap at 1 900 000
TR's can open and play quests at any difficulty setting
On your first TR, Hero, in any quest on Normal difficulty you suffer a -50% XP penalty
On your second TR, Legend, and any subsequent lives, you suffer -75% XP on Normal, and -50% on Hard settings
Result: Less grind, more skill needed, you can still run any diff you want but harder diffs are much better. More fun, more challenge.

This appeals to me, for the most part, as the end effect is roughly similar to my earlier suggestion. I'm not sure I approve of the flat, level-agnostic penalties, though. Should the penalty apply if the TR is running a quest on Normal that is three levels above his character level?

That's why I'm more attached to the idea of a character level modifier that starts with Hero and is raised with Legend status. Is there some hilariously bad side effect to this approach that I'm not seeing?

[Asketes]

Dunno, I'd like to see +3/+4 tomes eaten to be kept on ALL tr's

+1/+2 should be disqualified.

think of +1/+2 as your typical public education and +3/+4 are exclusive and in depth life experiences that remain a factor in all following lives.


just a thought (of course you would only get the benefits as you lvl: if you previously at a +3 then you get 1 at lvl 3, 1 more at lvl 7 and the last one a lvl 11? (i forget where the +3 comes into play))

[redspecter23]

I would be very much against this. I've been working my way through a few TR's over the past couple months and due to real life issues I find myself soloing quite a bit. On normal and hard difficulties, no problem, but past level 10 or so if it were elite only it would seriously impact my style of play.

The problem with the TR grind has never been the amount of xp required. It's the severe lack of higher level quests, which forces us to run the same things over and over again. Elite only wouldn't fix this. We'd still run the same few quests over and over, we would just skip some of the lesser run quests that we currently do.

[Darkrok]

in theory it sounds nice, but in practice it wont be good for the game.

Limits grouping possibilities is not a way to expand the game imo.

This.

I wouldn't want to have any TR's at all if I couldn't group with my friends while leveling. And they may want to do nx3,h,e rather than ex3.

It's a great theory but it would hurt the community part of the game.

[voodoogroves]

Dunno, I'd like to see +3/+4 tomes eaten to be kept on ALL tr's

+1/+2 should be disqualified.

think of +1/+2 as your typical public education and +3/+4 are exclusive and in depth life experiences that remain a factor in all following lives.)

How about something simple that combines this with your other approach.


When you TR, you get level option A or B.

(a) A is what we have today. Tomes go bye-bye.
(b) B is the "hardcore" mode with different XP curve, rewards, whatever. Tomes stay.


I think the simpler this can be done, the better.

[Tobril]

RIDER OPTION: Allow TR characters to choose their path

(1) When character is TR'd allow them to check the "hardcore" mode which would put them in the lower-XP-to-cap scale but also change the rewards to favor elite/hard. Normal mode would remain as it is today.


This sort of thing needs to be adjustable on the fly.


Example:

I recently had to go out of town for a bit and fell a couple of levels behind my TR group.

As such I’m playing catch up by running certain quests really fast on normal to catch up.

This would be a real pain if I was forced to catch up on elite only.

[Asketes]

How about something simple that combines this with your other approach.


When you TR, you get level option A or B.

(a) A is what we have today. Tomes go bye-bye.
(b) B is the "hardcore" mode with different XP curve, rewards, whatever. Tomes stay.


I think the simpler this can be done, the better.



OOHH!!!!!


I like this.

Good middle ground!

[Hellllboy]

I think this is a good suggestion-I am really starting to hate the Grind-it makes TR very boring.

It would have to be coordinated in a way that would not affect the LFM's or else f2p and p2p people who choose not to TR would have their game play drastically affected.

I’m sure there are people who don’t find an issue with grinding 3-4 million xp per TR, but my RL is too busy to dedicate that much time and investment into such a feat-as I am learning in my grind back to 20.

[Asketes]

This sort of thing needs to be adjustable on the fly.


Example:

I recently had to go out of town for a bit and fell a couple of levels behind my TR group.

As such I’m playing catch up by running certain quests really fast on normal to catch up.

This would be a real pain if I was forced to catch up on elite only.


I was trying to think of something like this when I wrote my compromise idea. I just don't see this as viable to be able to change all the way through.

I would LOVE to see a working solution for your example exactly!If I'm running with my friends and guildies, I'll do elites
If I'm pugging, change the XP amount around.

I don't think this is possible since the XP differences are so huge between 1.9 and 4.3 mill

[Zaodon]

This is a horrible idea, for many reasons.

1. TR's need to run "Normal" for the extra XP.
2. This would PREVENT TR's from grouping with non-TRs! HORRIBLE HORRIBLE IDEA.
3. This would simply remove options. Why?! Why remove options?!?!?! If you want to only run Hard/Elite, then do so. If you want to run Permadeath, do so. News flash: casual players TR too. You can't just assume TR = elitist player.

Not just "NO", but "HELL NO!"

[redspecter23]

How about as an alternative. Casual, normal and hard stay as they are currently and award full xp. Cap stays inflated, but elite will always offer +50% xp, even on subsequent runs? There is your incentive to run elite, but it won't effect the playstyles of anyone currently.

[Terdfergeson]

What about people who have been playing the game for a while and have a TR but run with a group of new people? Either they come in on Elite or I get no XP. I play to have fun with friends. Getting them frustrated with the quest is no way to entice them to keep playing.

[Fejj]

There was a good post in the other thread about this which was something like this:

For xp in a quest:
TR1 = Character Level +2 (can open hard)
TR2 = Character Level +4 (can open elite)

TR1 = Epics for xp at 19
TR2 = Epics for xp at 18

It seems to best fit what people are looking for, without damaging the game for others.

[Aeolwind]

I like the overall idea as long as the XP requirement is lowered to that of a non-TR character.

-1.9 Mill XP
-hard/Elite only on tr 1 for XP
-Elite only on TR 2+ for XP
-Flagging can still occur on C/N/H
-Raids Excluded
-Scaling quests (Like Devil Assault) excluded.

At the midrange however, would this require grinding quests for certain levels or would there be enough to get you to 20?

[Missing_Minds]

So in your world grind equals challenge?

Honestly... I'm sick of that retort. Nothing against you, grodon, I'm just sick of that being a rally cry.

Face it. Grind IS a form of challenge. Difficulty is a form of challenge. They are unique statements that are correct.

But no one has said that grind is "fun" that I recall.

I have seen more people saying that a "challenge" is fun, but normally in relation to how how team work required or how much brain thinking/stratagems required. Seldom in how resource intensive something is even though that too is a 'challenge', or how much survivability is required, how much no screw ups are required.

There are lots of challenges, and grind is one. But the thing we all want generically is FUN, and that is hard to quantify.

[Zeruell]

There was a good post in the other thread about this which was something like this:

For xp in a quest:
TR1 = Character Level +2 (can open hard)
TR2 = Character Level +4 (can open elite)

TR1 = Epics for xp at 19
TR2 = Epics for xp at 18

It seems to best fit what people are looking for, without damaging the game for others.

Thank you. This is what I've been trying to get feedback on.

[Asketes]

My biggest problem:

I have plenty of time to run with my big bad buddies and we run stuff elite and fast and we complete and we win

I have other times when I have no interest in running elites and just want to put around and enjoy some pug time.


THERE HAS to be some type of middle ground that complements both of these styles.

I simply don't run a complete TR life as one or the other, I utilize both styles

[-Nismu-]

Perhaps best way to implement this would be giving TRs something like +2 (maybe more for second tr and beyond) effective character level. This way they would need to do quests earlier, but could do on any difficulty they want.
for example level 1 tr would act like lvl 3 character when it comes to exp. So you would have to do lvl 1 quest atleast on hard to not get penalty.

[Ganolyn]

Face it. Grind IS a form of challenge.


Yeah, a challenge to your sanity. Sort of like playing Call of Cthulhu! :D

[Phidius]

Oh ...an easy button for TR's.

wheres all the haters?

So in your world grind equals challenge?

In Turbine's world, too.


This is a horrible idea, for many reasons.

1. TR's need to run "Normal" for the extra XP.
2. This would PREVENT TR's from grouping with non-TRs! HORRIBLE HORRIBLE IDEA.
3. This would simply remove options. Why?! Why remove options?!?!?! If you want to only run Hard/Elite, then do so. If you want to run Permadeath, do so. News flash: casual players TR too. You can't just assume TR = elitist player.

Not just "NO", but "HELL NO!"

I die a little inside every time I agree with you :D

+1


Perhaps best way to implement this would be giving TRs something like +2 (maybe more for second tr and beyond) effective character level. This way they would need to do quests earlier, but could do on any difficulty they want.
for example level 1 tr would act like lvl 3 character when it comes to exp. So you would have to do lvl 1 quest atleast on hard to not get penalty.

I really like this idea (+1 for TR1, +2 for TR2). It encourages me to challenge myself, yet doesn't force anything down my throat. Reduce the XP needed to 1.9 for TRs, of course, or no deal.

[Truga]

With respawning monsters I take it? :D

On a more serious note:
TR1: Character Level+3.

What I mean here is, if you're level 1, you count as a level 4 player as far as the exp penalty is concerned. 25% Hit on at-level normal.

TR2+: Character Level +5.

Again, same as above. 75% hit for running normal at level.

Running at-level on elite as a TR1 will still net full exp.
Running level+2 quests on elite as a TR2+ will still net full exp.

Couple this with a reduction in exp needed for TRs and it'll make TRing a challenge and not a grind.

As for the exp needed: It should take a bit more exp. TR should take the same amount of quest completions as running a new character, but since they'll be running quests on elite if they want full exp, they'll be getting more exp. Elite is usually 25-50% more exp than normal I'd say so 15% more exp for TR1 and 33% more exp for TR2+.

Edit: This penalty only applies to you, not the entire party. Just so you can't stealth nerf other people's exp :D

Edit2:
Epics on TR1 can be opened/ran as early as level 19 and still give exp.
Epics on TR2 can be opened/ran as early as level 18 and still give exp.

Edit3: This is also incentive to go vip rather than play premium, because you can open elites right off the bat as vip.

Reposting this here because I think people haven't seen it.

This also gives you the ability to grind your ass off on normal 5-6 times before it yields 0 xp if you do it well above your level though.

[Zeruell]

Perhaps best way to implement this would be giving TRs something like +2 (maybe more for second tr and beyond) effective character level. This way they would need to do quests earlier, but could do on any difficulty they want.
for example level 1 tr would act like lvl 3 character when it comes to exp. So you would have to do lvl 1 quest atleast on hard to not get penalty.

This is what Fejj and I are suggesting. I'm not seeing much discussion about it, though.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3773287&postcount=23
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3773487&postcount=111

EDIT: And Truga.

[zebidos]

/signed

But, make raids exempt.

I have always dreamed of making a completionist halfling barbarian with extra past lives in monk and fighter. Will take about a year but gosh darn, will be worth it.

[dingal]

From the "Easy Button" thread:



Several of us think this would be the greatest thing to hit the game, leave the XP at 1.9 Million but require quests to be run on elite for TRs to get XP.

Devs - is this a possibility, actually being considered?

That would rock..........if they only required elite the first time. Otherwise we'd exhaust the available xp too quickly.

[Missing_Minds]

Yeah, a challenge to your sanity. Sort of like playing Call of Cthulhu! :D

/offtopic

For sanity checks I preferred Paranoia myself. :)

[Razcar]

I'd be a 20 life caster in less than half the time.

As for Monastery on Elite, you'd never even have to do it, you'd hit 1.9 mil xp in Elite Vale if not before.
Why not. You still have to spend around 20-30 hours playing for a past life feat. And anyone can get killed on Elite at level if you make some mistakes, especially soloing.

Also, this would make Completionist a fun and realistic - but still tough - long term goal for more than a couple of dozen of players in DDO.

We need a better, and more fun, end game. I think that making TRing more about skill, and less about time spent doing endless repetitions, would help that.

[Tobril]

I was trying to think of something like this when I wrote my compromise idea. I just don't see this as viable to be able to change all the way through.

I would LOVE to see a working solution for your example exactly!If I'm running with my friends and guildies, I'll do elites
If I'm pugging, change the XP amount around.

I don't think this is possible since the XP differences are so huge between 1.9 and 4.3 mill



Possible solution:

Much higher bonus for TR characters on hard/elite, leave XP required to
level alone. Normal characters don’t get this bonus.

This allows people to slowly-but-surely re-level if they are less than uber
of have other circumstances where hard/elite would simply be no fun.
(think elite protect-coyle)

This also alleviates the issue I’ve had leveling a highly twinked first life character
with a friend whose character was on its 5th life. I got way ahead and had to do
something else (i.e., not play with my friend) while he caught up.


I have another friend who isn’t particularly skilled and has to solo a lot due
to his schedule (he couldn’t do many elites with all the gear in the world)

He is, however, willing to run quests into the ground and grind explorer areas
to the absolute last tier. Removing the option for him to TR at his own pace
would be no fun for him and lose Turbine a lot of income. (he is a store SP potion addict)

[Coldin]

This might be nicer than the xp grind that typically comes with TRs, but I could see it having several issues with grouping. Sometimes you just want to run a quest on normal or casual for some easy questing, and that would be completely locked out to you.

Perhaps instead of forcing players to only quest on Elite or Hard, questing on Normal or Casual would give a -25% xp, on top of whatever other penalties there might be.

There is also the question of Premium players. They don't get to unlock Hard and Elite difficulties from the start. Would being a TR bypass that restriction?

[Fejj]

On a more serious note:
TR1: Character Level+3.

What I mean here is, if you're level 1, you count as a level 4 player as far as the exp penalty is concerned. 25% Hit on at-level normal.

TR2+: Character Level +5.

Again, same as above. 75% hit for running normal at level.

Running at-level on elite as a TR1 will still net full exp.
Running level+2 quests on elite as a TR2+ will still net full exp.

Couple this with a reduction in exp needed for TRs and it'll make TRing a challenge and not a grind.

As for the exp needed: It should take a bit more exp. TR should take the same amount of quest completions as running a new character, but since they'll be running quests on elite if they want full exp, they'll be getting more exp. Elite is usually 25-50% more exp than normal I'd say so 15% more exp for TR1 and 33% more exp for TR2+.

Edit: This penalty only applies to you, not the entire party. Just so you can't stealth nerf other people's exp :D

Edit2:
Epics on TR1 can be opened/ran as early as level 19 and still give exp.
Epics on TR2 can be opened/ran as early as level 18 and still give exp.

Edit3: This is also incentive to go vip rather than play premium, because you can open elites right off the bat as vip..

Thats it. I like this very much.

[BruceTheHoon]

Sounds awesome for some TRs (32+pt), sounds awful for 1st life new players (28pt).
They'll have the option of having a hard/elite time staying alive while grouping with TRs, or basically learning everything for themselves, because almost none of the experienced players will quest with them on normal.
I just like to have my hands free to chose whatever I want. If I want to do the stupid Coyle on casual for the cloak, I won't hide in shame in the corner because of it.

[steelblueskies]

So how about we go the other way?

(1) Leave XP caps where they are
(2) Decrease XP on TR1 for Casual/Normal and TR2 for Hard as well
(3) Increase XP for elite for TR1 by one amount and for TR2 for another amount, in-line with the XP to level increases


That way someone could run normal a bazillion times ... but one run on elite may be worth more than 3 or 4 or more normal.

Less repetition if you run elite. For me, the pain of TRing isn't the XP. It's the repetition and grindiness of getting that XP. I like Wiz King, Shadow Crypt, VON5, etc. Running those a few times is fun, but honestly banking a whole level on one quest by running it 10 times is kinda lame and boring.


If I got more XP (relative) for running it on elite, I'd definitely run more elite content and less normal farming.

all you achieve is frontloading the elite run the first time. if your first time completion on elite is now a 100% bonus instead of 50% expect a great deal of perfectionist aholisms. omg we lost a bonus, everyone drop. it's too easy to get to be like that as it is. make it work like that and one would have to act that way to progress.

the can't open elite as a tr without a store item per quest could be avoided. you'd just need an elite opener friend full time. that would suck.

or maybe you mean jump up the base exp for elite. it's already higher then normal and casual. the problem is the need to repeat a quest, or multiple quests to effectively progress. so you want to reduce repetition.

how about you change exp gain for multiple tr's. require quest completion on elite. map it so repetitions don't count. and all quests must be run once on elite to cap after tr1. progression is like favor at this point, no more repeating quests to cheese through. raids get excluded from progression, until later when it's been out a while.

oh wait, that locks out those without full access.
and forces you to run those quests you hate, on elite, no less.

but the main point here is, we have now recreated the other thread. people posting their caveats to the idea. the idea itself is flawed and incomplete and we have people signing blindly on the basis of what they hope gets bundled with the stated change.

all that has been offered outright is to take something away from you if you tr.
if you like less options, by all means use that choice you have now to only run elite to cap. that is what has been presented. nothing more.

seriously, rerunning the same content on elite is still re-running the same content.

[Thrudh]

At the risk of derailing the OP's thread, out of curiousity how many of you would have preferred that TR'ing restricts difficulty choice to Elite only? Or Hard/Elite the first time around & Elite the second+ ?

Personally I think this is a very interesting idea and wish we had contemplated implementing it this way.

I LOVE this idea.... TRing should not be a grind, but should be a challenge!

Right now, the best way to TR is to do stuff 1 level below you, while twinked to the hilt with TR gear...

There is ZERO challenge with the current implementation.

[Thrudh]

Well Madfloyd never said that they would leave the XP at 1.9 million - only restrict the quest opening.

If the forced-elites WERE accompanied by lowering the XP needed to 1.9 mill, I would be all for it.

If not, I would be completely against it.

Well yeah, xp would have to be lowered.

Also raids should be exempt, and the restriction should go away at 20....

[Thrudh]

To keep the grouping options from being a problem why not do an xp penalty that affects only tr's? Say a 50% penalty for running a quest on normal and 25% for running on hard? It'd still make it possible to group with others and make it still a much better option to run things on elite. Also it would let tr's play with friends that aren't and be able to keep up in level so long as they favor elite difficulty.

I can imagine on the xp sheet that the penalty would be "You're better than this(-50%): 123xp."

Good idea, I'd probably say 75% penalty and 50% for normal and hard, though.

[Thrudh]

My main is on his on his 2nd TR....and I was planning on not going for a 3rd.....too much of a grind and I dont have the time. But for long term, I would consider completionist....with this idea.

Same here... I have ONE double-TR, and he will likely be my last.

Put this idea in though, and I'll be buying a LOT more hearts of wood from the store...

[Thrudh]

Perhaps best way to implement this would be giving TRs something like +2 (maybe more for second tr and beyond) effective character level. This way they would need to do quests earlier, but could do on any difficulty they want.
for example level 1 tr would act like lvl 3 character when it comes to exp. So you would have to do lvl 1 quest atleast on hard to not get penalty.


I really like this idea (+1 for TR1, +2 for TR2). It encourages me to challenge myself, yet doesn't force anything down my throat. Reduce the XP needed to 1.9 for TRs, of course, or no deal.

Hmmm... I like this idea too, and it could be pretty easy to implement.

[Asketes]

Perhaps best way to implement this would be giving TRs something like +2 (maybe more for second tr and beyond) effective character level. This way they would need to do quests earlier, but could do on any difficulty they want.
for example level 1 tr would act like lvl 3 character when it comes to exp. So you would have to do lvl 1 quest atleast on hard to not get penalty.

I like this.


one caveat:

The + to your character CAN NOT be allowed to affect other party member's XP. only if your TRUE character level exceeds the quest level should it have any effect on other player's XP

[grodon9999]

Honestly... I'm sick of that retort. Nothing against you, grodon, I'm just sick of that being a rally cry.

Face it. Grind IS a form of challenge. Difficulty is a form of challenge. They are unique statements that are correct.

But no one has said that grind is "fun" that I recall.

I have seen more people saying that a "challenge" is fun, but normally in relation to how how team work required or how much brain thinking/stratagems required. Seldom in how resource intensive something is even though that too is a 'challenge', or how much survivability is required, how much no screw ups are required.

There are lots of challenges, and grind is one. But the thing we all want generically is FUN, and that is hard to quantify.

Grind is only a test of patience, not skill or power.

[Matuse]

I don't like the idea at all.

Forced to do nothing but elite? Pass. I'd never TR again.

[Kushiel]

Good idea, I'd probably say 75% penalty and 50% for normal and hard, though.

I'm in striking range of starting my 4th life on my main. Do not force me to play under more penalties that some think are a great idea for how they like to play, what they consider challenges, that they are geared/tomed up for, and that fit into the realm of what they enjoy and consider to be fun.

Everyones fun is not the same fun. The world already has more than enough penalties that can be incured for those who think they need/want them. Don't force others to play penalized who do not want to.

I've liked the pieces of threads that try to break it out in choices however. The "Hardcore" TR's could of their own volition make it harder/eliter on themselves. Choices are good. Forced "challenges" are community (paying customer) killers.

[sephiroth1084]

If raids were exempted, I think I could get behind this idea. It would make general PUGing while leveling a little harder after the Marketplace, but would probably make running a TR up more enjoyable. That said, soloing as a TR would also become much more difficult, and I'm not sure how I feel about that--I could solo DQ 1 normal on my tanks at level 12, but I'm not sure I could do so on elite at 14.

It's an interesting idea.

[Qezuzu]

Better idea: increase XP on elite so that it scales to the effort and time required compared to normal. (bastion elite would give like... 50k XP lol). Double the XP on elite, so running elite is like leveling for 1.9m XP.

So a player can choose whether to take it long and easy or fast and hard. I don't want some arbitrary restriction forced on me by elitist players. Not everyone is as competent. Not everyone is super twinked, and not everyone builds toons to be super optimal. Some just want to TR into a flavor build and have fun, and not have every quest be super difficult.

This idea would also further seperate TR's from the new players who can benefit from their advice. I'm all for more incentive to challenge yourself and decrease the grind while TRing, though, but don't force it.

Arbitrary, meaningless restrictions that force players to be challenged is a BAD thing. Some people play the game for relaxation and fun, and are fine with taking 3 months to TR. Don't completely restrict casual, untwinked players from an aspect of the game.

[Cyr]

This appeals to me, for the most part, as the end effect is roughly similar to my earlier suggestion. I'm not sure I approve of the flat, level-agnostic penalties, though. Should the penalty apply if the TR is running a quest on Normal that is three levels above his character level?

That's why I'm more attached to the idea of a character level modifier that starts with Hero and is raised with Legend status. Is there some hilariously bad side effect to this approach that I'm not seeing?

The level modifier could very well work and has been suggested before also.

It would be a less challenging method of TRing though as it would allow in extra runs of particularly heavily run quests on normal as well as the issue that normal quests of the same 'level' as elite quests are actually much easier. At the center of this that Turbine tends to strongly undervalue rewards for more challenging content leading to unrealistic levels being set on this content.

[Aeolwind]

Grind is only a test of patience, not skill or power.

This should be stamped into the soul of every game developer around the world with a white hot branding iron.

[Gkar]

If they are looking at increasing challenge, the other thing that they should really think about is bringing back the "underlevel" bonus. Let's get the L4's back in SC, the L9's back in GH, the L12-14s into the Vale, etc.

[Asketes]

If something like this were to be implemented, it will have to be well thought out so that it allows players be able to run with the elite crowd AND non-elite crowd on a quest by quest basis.


It's definitely a pickle we're in.


I'm definitely for some type of difficulty AND xp raising idea, I just want to be able to run with my friends who will NEVER be elite quality.

[Cyr]

Grind is only a test of patience, not skill or power.

Indeed, you don't wipe from having to do something due to it's grind. You wipe from it being challenging.

[sephiroth1084]

Maybe they could just reverse the XP bonuses for TRs? Instead of getting normal XP 1 level over the quest's level, start the penalty at 1 level over and restore the under-level bonus. Maybe even remove the first time XP bonus for running Normal on a TR1 and for running Hard on a TR2.

You could still run normal quests, but the XP for doing so would be much less.
You could still run quests a level over, but you'd be losing some XP and would have to decide whether an easier, faster run is worth more than the loss of XP.
Meanwhile, you'd get a ton of XP for running quests a level or two below and on elite for the first time.

[Aeolwind]

If something like this were to be implemented, it will have to be well thought out so that it allows players be able to run with the elite crowd AND non-elite crowd on a quest by quest basis.


It's definitely a pickle we're in.


I'm definitely for some type of difficulty AND xp raising idea, I just want to be able to run with my friends who will NEVER be elite quality.

It is happening already. TR's either run with other TR's or solo. Most of the time I spent leveling my 3 20's, I could count on one hand the number of non-raid pugs I joined that had a TR in it that either didn't bail due to people dying like crazy, or didn't run ahead and wipe out every **** thing leaving no chance for anyone to die.

[Aeolwind]

Learn the history of Codog and ask that again.

His is all fru-fru frilly and white again. We never said they weren't redeemable. =D

[Krumm]

I like this idea quite a bit but as other posters have expressed, XP requirements will need to be addressed.

It seems obious to me that 1.9mil exp on a TR even if they can only run elite quests are too low while leaving the exp requirement as is would be too difficult to reach 20.

There are lots of good idea on how to solve this problem but to be fair, the XP requirements for 1st & 2nd/beyond TR should be rebalanced if this was to be inplemented.

Also I'd like to add that if TR can get XP only on elite difficulty, it would create a situation where only elite quests will be run, making it hard to group for normal/hard.
This can be partially addressed by making it so that normal/hard difficulty adds penalty to exp for TRs, ie -50% for normal and -25% for hard in addition to other normal exp penalties and bonuses. Hence while TRs would be penalize for running lower diffculties, they will still get some XP out of them. (The -50%-25% is just an example, and probably should be scaled to # of TRs.)

[Jahmin]

Hard is 65 points and Elite is 95 – I see no reason a Premium should get that functionality for ‘free’ merely by TRing. Given the cost, it is not unreasonable to expect it to be purchased.

400 favour is a joke to get on a TR – especially if you are running elite ‘only’ now – so you would easily make your points back.

I am otherwise fully behind the TR1 Hard, TR2+ Elite concept – providing the implied XP drop is included.

[protokon]

From the "Easy Button" thread:



Several of us think this would be the greatest thing to hit the game, leave the XP at 1.9 Million but require quests to be run on elite for TRs to get XP.

Devs - is this a possibility, actually being considered?

this. would. be. awesome.

/signed.

[shagath]

If this were implemented xp cap should be at least 3.2mil for a legend. Otherwise it would be too easy and people would start to think about all those ruined hours on a path to completionist or whatever.

I would be ok with "elite only but still same xp to cap" because I like challenge but with 1,9mil cap that some are speaking.. People who play a lot would do one life in a week even without trying really. Why people can't just pick that elite difficulty and leave TR as it is? You can make it challenging for yourself without force. :) I've done one life upto lvl10 elite only.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Have to run elite? Not signed.

Read the thread thus far and here is my "collection of all various points that I would like to see instituted in game" aka my 2cp

TR1 = +2 character level

TR2+ = +3 character level

Xp cap back to 1.9mil

This incentivizes more difficult runs without forcing them, and disincentivizes normal/casual runs without killing them.

This "effective character level" affects the whole group. Afterall, they are benefitting from a "stronger than average" character too.

[Asketes]

It is happening already. TR's either run with other TR's or solo. Most of the time I spent leveling my 3 20's, I could count on one hand the number of non-raid pugs I joined that had a TR in it that either didn't bail due to people dying like crazy, or didn't run ahead and wipe out every **** thing leaving no chance for anyone to die.

Yes but what you describe is a choice; this will make it almost a necessity.

[pHo3nix]

As long as the total xp required are still 1.9 this is a wonderful idea, so
/signed.

edit: ofc TRs should be able to open elite like they were vip, otherwise running the quest normal/hard without xp just to can get xp would be not that good :D

[sweez]

So... *pulls out set of clip-on devil horns to play Devil's Advocate with*

What y'all are asking for is to have the game limit your ability to enter quests to specific difficulties (which you can do voluntarily)?

Isn't this akin to PDs/RPers/PvPers asking for game changes to suit their specific playstyles?

:confused:

Jus' askin.... ;)

Was just wondering the same thing lol. How the heck is lowering the number of possible options ever a good thing?

[protokon]

TR is the only thing to do if you're already equipped and this would jump-start many more on the TR path towards ubberness.

Fixed it for you

[Angelus_dead]

Several of us think this would be the greatest thing to hit the game, leave the XP at 1.9 Million but require quests to be run on elite for TRs to get XP.
Restricting TRs to Elite mode would worsen the existing problems with group formation and participation. It would encourage cheesy exploit-like tactics.

You see, before TRs existed DDO already had a problem with power seep and power looseness, where seeing that two characters were both level X didn't give you really specific information about how close they were in their ability to survive dungeons and kill monsters. That made it difficult to form groups involving them, and it would often happen that they'd end up in a group together and some of the members would find it too easy or too hard.

The addition of TRs worsened that situation, by causing some fraction of the level X characters to be even higher in power above first-life level Xs (accelerating when X=12 due to Shroud loot). But yet the TR level 12 and life1 level 12 are treated identically for the purpose of dungeon XP awards.

If TRs are limited to elite mode, then they'll make an even worse disruption on non-TR levelling gameplay. Currently when low-power players join with a TR in the party, if they're on Normal mode they can try their best to keep up and fight the monsters some or otherwise participate in the objectives. But if the TR players only run things on Elite, then a decent chunk of low-power characters will get pulled into coming along on these Elite runs... which means that if they engage the monsters, they will die and lower XP. So instead they'll be given strict instructions to either wait behind where it's safe, or they can drop group.

To start addressing these problems, the devs could look at ways to make the XP rewards system smarter about how character power is measured for XP eligibility purposes, instead of simply using character level. For example, maybe as a start TRs count +1 level or something, although that's a tricky problem to deal with.

A better and different way to avoid the problem is to create a formal mechanism to allow players on overpowered characters to participate in underpowered groups, such as temporarily de-levelling your character or loading into a lower-level pregenerated character. (Systems called "mentoring" in other games).

[Bunker]

What are the reasons for this idea?


Are we trying to raise the difficulty of the game?
Are we trying to implement a change that will give justification to lowering the required XP on a double TR?
Unlocking Elite: The obvious clash with this idea is that if a TR opens up quests only on elite, then what is the benifit of unlocking Elite as a ViP? Sure, it would still apply to other characters that are non-TRs but the overlapping of this benifit does not seem right to me.

Lowering the XP needed: Ask yourself, are we trying to come up with an idea to give reason to lower the XP needed to cap a double TR. 4.2 million XP is a lot. Is it too much?

Running more quests: I'm not talking about running multiples of the same quest, but running more types. As it is right now, most of the well known "TR guides to 20" on the forums talk about running a handful of quests 8-12 times. Some of the "TR guides to 20" state that they only end up with around 800 favor because of the limited type of quests they run.

My Idea: We all talk about revamping the favor rewards. Well how about adding one. A three tier favor reward system that adds a stackable bonus to XP depending on how much favor you have. Example:

1000 favor = 2.5% bonus
2000 favor = 5% bonus
3000 favor = 10% bonus
Ok, so maybe the top tier bonus is too high. 10% stackable might be a bit much. Or maybe the 3000 favor to reach the last bonus is too high. Maybe dropping that to 2500 would make more sense so that it is useful. Or perhaps even doing 750/1500/2250 is more viable so that the benifits can be used.

I'm sure some of the number crunchers on the forums will decide if this makes sense or not.

What this idea does:

Encourages players the option to run elite on more quests for more bonus
Encourages more players to Attempt Elite Difficulty
Encourages more players to go ViP to have access to Elite first
Thoughts?

/cheers -Bunk

P.S. Not sure if this has been suggested before.

[Asketes]

Have to run elite? Not signed.

Read the thread thus far and here is my "collection of all various points that I would like to see instituted in game" aka my 2cp

TR1 = +2 character level

TR2+ = +3 character level

Xp cap back to 1.9mil

This incentivizes more difficult runs without forcing them, and disincentivizes normal/casual runs without killing them.

This "effective character level" affects the whole group. Afterall, they are benefitting from a "stronger than average" character too.

why should your *TR modified* character level affect the whole group? Leave their exp alone, they get no benefit from running things below level or on elite (aside from first time bonus and a slightly large base XP)

It's the skill, not the gear that defines a stronger player in this instance.

[Seikojin]

I would be fine with this. But I would hope someone would run xp totals to ensure one can still reach 20 without doing too much in the way of repeating quests...

I have a spreadsheet at home and will run the numbers when I am there.

[pHo3nix]

Running more quests: I'm not talking about running multiples of the same quest, but running more types.


There's a reason why people run multiple times the same quests and avoid some others: xp/min. If they give the longer quests more xp to compete with the xp/min of the best ones people would run more types of quests. I don't mean that all quests should be like shadow crypt, but surely many quests need a xp revamp if they want people to run them often.

[Bunker]

There's a reason why people run multiple times the same quests and avoid some others: xp/min. If they give the longer quests more xp to compete with the xp/min of the best ones people would run more types of quests. I don't mean that all quests should be like shadow crypt, but surely many quests need a xp revamp if they want people to run them often.

That is why I suggested that they add a stackable xp bonus in favor rewards. This would encourage TRs to run more quests on Elite. Also applying a bonus that would make reaching lvl 20 "hopefully" faster.

[pHo3nix]

That is why I suggested that they add a stackable xp bonus in favor rewards. This would encourage TRs to run more quests on Elite. Also applying a bonus that would make reaching lvl 20 "hopefully" faster.

It could work, but should be easier to adjust the xp of the quests that are run less :)
The idea in the OP looks too cool though, it would bring some challenge instead of the grind we have now :)

[Thrudh]

I'm in striking range of starting my 4th life on my main. Do not force me to play under more penalties that some think are a great idea for how they like to play, what they consider challenges, that they are geared/tomed up for, and that fit into the realm of what they enjoy and consider to be fun.

Everyones fun is not the same fun. The world already has more than enough penalties that can be incured for those who think they need/want them. Don't force others to play penalized who do not want to.

I've liked the pieces of threads that try to break it out in choices however. The "Hardcore" TR's could of their own volition make it harder/eliter on themselves. Choices are good. Forced "challenges" are community (paying customer) killers.

The change would have to include dropping the exp penalty TRs currently face... Instead of needing 4.3 million exp to level your 4th life, you'd only need 1.9 million... Even with massive penalties on normal and hard, you could probably still level close to the same way you do now (nnnnnnnnhe)... Those of us who find that ridiculously boring could instead just do elite on each quest once, and still get enough exp to get to 20.

[Bunker]

It could work, but should be easier to adjust the xp of the quests that are run less :)
The idea in the OP looks too cool though, it would bring some challenge instead of the grind we have now :)

Adjusting xp of the induvidual quests is a risky idea imo. With raising xp in the lesser quests, we run the risk of lowering the xp reward on our current favorite quests.

My idea of adding a bonus in favor gives the players an optional way to gain more XP.

Trying at best not to ruin the current system, but improve it.

As per the OP, giving the players less options, IE making them run only elite first time, will cause much friction in grouping. There are ways to improve the system of XP, TR levels and quest popularity, but giving less options for the players isn't a path in the correct direction.

-Bunk

[Seamonkeysix]

The change would have to include dropping the exp penalty TRs currently face... Instead of needing 4.3 million exp to level your 4th life, you'd only need 1.9 million... Even with massive penalties on normal and hard, you could probably still level close to the same way you do now (nnnnnnnnhe)... Those of us who find that ridiculously boring could instead just do elite on each quest once, and still get enough exp to get to 20.

This. I think the idea has merit, and the ridiculous X2 and above TR xp needs to be looked at. I know some people are of the mindset that it keeps people playing the game, but in reality, I think most people would play more if they knew that their TR time was more reasonable.

I am not sure that there would be any way to compensate all those people that have suffered through the TR grind to this point...other than perhaps allowing all that "extra" xp to go to future TRs.

Even if you couldn't do this retroactively, I think the 1.9 million cap for TR is a good idea, as long as there is challenge involved. I for one would play more and TR more.

(Three of the six toons in my sig are TRs...Six of six would be if the xp grind was more manageble and fun)

[Quarterling]

/signed

As long as the exp needed to cap is kept at 1.9 million.

Also, in order to avoid grouping limitations, allow first-time TR's to enter normal (second time TR's to enter normal and hard), but then they automatically get zero experience.

[Bloodhaven]

This - don't reduce opportunities for xp without resetting total required xp for a TR back to 1.9 million.

1st life - casual / normal / hard / elite options

2nd life - hard / elite options

3rd life and beyond - elite only

This would be challenging but very fun (but ONLY if total xp needed to cap is reset - otherwise completely unrealistic).

This would be a great idea if the xp is set to 1.9 mill for all TR's

[Missing_Minds]

The change would have to include dropping the exp penalty TRs currently face... Instead of needing 4.3 million exp to level your 4th life, you'd only need 1.9 million... Even with massive penalties on normal and hard, you could probably still level close to the same way you do now (nnnnnnnnhe)... Those of us who find that ridiculously boring could instead just do elite on each quest once, and still get enough exp to get to 20.

Has it ever been considered by players that maybe one of the reasons for the xp raise is because of zergers not caring about questing but how much xp per minute instead?

Perhaps the real issue of xp per minute and zerging relation should be worked on before a change to TR XP levels? This is only a passing thought, not fully thought out what so ever. I fully understand that some people love and enjoy this style of playing.

[Thriand]

I absolutely love this idea, reducing the grind and increasing the challenge would definitely make TRing a whole lot more interesting to me at least. Although I would much prefer instead of it reading "TRs can only run elite" that it read more like "TRs can only gain experience if the quest is run on elite" That way people can still flag and farm things on TRs as well as helping their non-TR friends who just need something on normal, as well as probably being much easier to code.

[Zaodon]

/signed

As long as the exp needed to cap is kept at 1.9 million.

Also, in order to avoid grouping limitations, allow first-time TR's to enter normal (second time TR's to enter normal and hard), but then they automatically get zero experience.

???

How is that NOT a grouping limitation? Maybe for guild/close friends, but what TR would join a PUG to get 0 xp ?!

This idea is simply bad. Period.

If the problem with TR is the grind, then remove the grind directly. Don't do silly things which have horrible side effects.

Turbine knows that a TR cannot get to 20 by running every quest on normal, mostly because they give no incentive to run every quest. We only run quests which give good xp, and we'll repeat them rather than choose variety and bad xp.

This isn't really even a problem with TR, its a universal leveling problem. TR or new char, people only run certain quests and not others. Period. Solve that, and you solve any possible TR leveling "grind" issue.

[fluffybunnywilson]

Has it ever been considered by players that maybe one of the reasons for the xp raise is because of zergers not caring about questing but how much xp per minute instead?

I personally find that the causal direction is reversed. On a TR, I want as much XP/minute because I know that I have so much XP to acquire. On a first life character, I'm much more willing to stop and smell the flowers.

[justagame]

For most of us mortals, game time can be sporadic. Elite challenges are great, when I have the time and attention to devote to it. But other times, I like to play in a more relaxed manner with friends. Sometimes I'll hop on and do a quick 2-man with a buddy, knowing I will get interrupted by a screaming baby at any time, or a late night work call. So if the only option available to me becomes hardcore white-knuckle challenges, I'll simply stop playing, because that wouldn't be practical for me.

Rather than 'force' the playstyle on everyone, I would be in favor of gentle incentives to nudge folks in that direction. Perhaps disable 1st time normal xp bonus for 1st time TRs, and disable the 1st time bonus on normal and hard on TR2s. And downscale the total xp requirement proportionately.

That last part is important -- if you restrict difficulty options for TR's AT ALL, you absolutely need to revisit TR xp requirements, they would be unrealistic.

[Kushiel]

The change would have to include dropping the exp penalty TRs currently face... Instead of needing 4.3 million exp to level your 4th life, you'd only need 1.9 million... Even with massive penalties on normal and hard, you could probably still level close to the same way you do now (nnnnnnnnhe)... Those of us who find that ridiculously boring could instead just do elite on each quest once, and still get enough exp to get to 20.

I'm not one of those concerned with xp/min, nor do i do the Nx3/H/E method. There are quests I really enjoy that I'll run on whatever difficulty I can get xp from, and i'll try to hit them when I get even the 1st % bump on casual. I'll go through the ones I enjoy pretty much as long as I'm getting some xp... because it saves me from having to even contemplate stepping into the ones I avoid and hate.

Again, Choices are great - don't force things on people who don't want them.

[pie2655]

/signed OP

[Xaearth]

I'm sorry, if you're a TR and you can't handle Sorjek or Amrath Elite (in a group, nobody's asking you to solo) then you just suck. You also wouldn't HAVE to run this stuff for XP anyway as there'd be plenty.

Not every good player chooses to be in a circle of elite players. Some of us enjoy playing with and helping more casual folks.

My guild, Mror Hold, has always been a more casual, laid back guild. Over the years we've had players of all skill levels, none of them bad players, but many without the FPS/action-paced combat skills and/or experience to survive in Amrath elite.

Now a few of us, including myself, could handle it. Getting that few of us online at the same time and trying to pug the last few spots? Not likely to happen.

Sure, my choice in guild is my choice, but I doubt I'm the only player that has guild-members/friends unable or unmotivated to keep up with the powergamer crowd.

[Hokiewa]

Many valid reasons for, many valid reasons against. I think in the interest of the playerbase as a whole, it won't be a popular idea.

/not signed

[pHo3nix]

For most of us mortals, game time can be sporadic.

The OP idea would make the lvling process of TRs a little more challenging and a lot less grindy, and those are 2 good things, aren't they? :) It would reduce the time you need to cap a TR character, giving possibilities also to people who can't play 10 hours/day to TR and have fun relevelling without taking them ages to get back to the cap ;)

[KillEveryone]

If the XP to cap on TR+ was the same as a first lifer, I wouldn't mind so much.

If there is no reduction in the XP to cap a TR, I'm against it.

[Esserbe]

It still separates players and reduces grouping options, which is bad. When I was going through my TR I didn't care about how fast I could get back to cap, I was just playing and having fun at my own pace and the pace of my party members, lots of pugging. A few nnnhe runs in quests I enjoy and that give good XP, but people do that even on first life characters.

Underlevel bonus is a great idea and it should be returned to the game, but this whole idea just seems silly to me. Surely there are other ways to decrease the grind?

[Ertay]

I don't know if it has been said already, but we would not necessarily need to prevent trs from joining or opening normal/hard difficulties, so they could still group and raid with their guild.

This actually brings up an interesting point: if they made it so that you could only get xp on harder difficulties on a tr, you would either have to run a quest for no xp several times or be vip to outright open it on elite, so veteran players who already have everything would have an incentive to be vip again.

[Niktoo]

/signed

this would be the greatest thing to happen to DDO

no more Nx9/H/E

just E,E. take your time, have fun, and have some challenge.

[pHo3nix]

This actually brings up an interesting point: if they made it so that you could only get xp on harder difficulties on a tr, you would either have to run a quest for no xp several times or be vip to outright open it on elite, so veteran players who already have everything would have an incentive to be vip again.

Or just let TRs to outright open quests on the difficulty they can gain xp with ;)

[Bilger]

If xp was 1.9 and elite only I would be all over this idea it is a very good one IMO and would take some of the grind out of TRing.

Would **** off some of those people who did 20 trs though:D

[Cyr]

why should your *TR modified* character level affect the whole group? Leave their exp alone, they get no benefit from running things below level or on elite (aside from first time bonus and a slightly large base XP)

It's the skill, not the gear that defines a stronger player in this instance.

Because TR's are assumed to be stronger toons then a first life toon. This is a reasonable assumption because there are less and less multiple year old toons that are on their first lives and not yet at cap (unlike when the level cap was being raised slowly). Oh, the assumed to be stronger comes from assumed better loot and the assumption that they have at least played the game long enough to get to cap once.

[Wizard_Zero]

Sure it sounds good in the beginning, but by Elite only, you eliminate 80% or more the player base. Not everyone is ready or geared for Elite. Heck, sometimes it's hard to complete a quest on "Normal."

How many "regular" players are really ready for Elite quest? It will be extremely difficult for a TR to put a group together for ToD, Shroud, Amarth, etc.

/Not signed

[Maitland]

I didnt read the whole thread but i would have to /notsign this idea.
There is plenty of xp in this game..if you dont like grinding or TR'ing then
just dont do it.

[Esserbe]

Because TR's are assumed to be stronger toons then a first life toon. This is a reasonable assumption because there are less and less multiple year old toons that are on their first lives and not yet at cap (unlike when the level cap was being raised slowly). Oh, the assumed to be stronger comes from assumed better loot and the assumption that they have at least played the game long enough to get to cap once.

What if someone races to cap with a suboptimal character who has no raid loot who then TRs, makes a better but still not optimal character without a good reincarnation cache and twink items for different level ranges or lots of plat and ingredients to finance it? They lack the skill AND the equipment to play Elite only, should they scrap their character?

[Thucydides04]

Grind is only a test of patience, not skill or power.

Then let's extend this logic to the rest of the game. If you have completed a raid once, you get a raid loot table, twice and it's half raid loot and 1/2 random loot etc. If you do not like the grind, do not do it.

The only change I would like to see made to TR XP tables is to change the required xp from 16-20. I suppose if that is not viable I could settle on a 7.5% increase in xp/level after the 3rd life.

After completionist ( or 11 Trs on one toon) I could get behind requiring 1.9 mil xp per life since that is all a PL feat is worth.

[HarveyMilk]

/signed

This is an excellent idea. I disagree with people saying this would be bad for grouping. A good TR would be able to instruct any ungeared, relatively intelligent player in how to work with them to get through a quest on elite.

But, instead of locking out norm/hard, the TR should just not get xp for norm/hard. That way they can still group with friends that want to run on lower difficulties. I think that might appease everyone.

And as far as completionist goes, people who get completionist before this change should get something extra. Maybe an extra +1 to all stats on the completionist feat.

Turbine could also set a date for this change, say, 2012. So everyone who wants the super completionist would need to finish this year. That would encourage the super hardcore to work hard to get their completionist, if they already haven't.

And everyone else can run epics and stock up on hearts to TR with next year =D

[Bilger]

What if someone races to cap with a suboptimal character who has no raid loot who then TRs, makes a better but still not optimal character without a good reincarnation cache and twink items for different level ranges or lots of plat and ingredients to finance it? They lack the skill AND the equipment to play Elite only, should they scrap their character?

If they race to cap and don't spend the time to acquire the gear and knowledge on how to do the quests or skill to do quests on elite then that is there fault and shouldn't be tring anyway.

There is really no quests in this game that with knowledge and resources can't be done on elite even on a non tr.

As far as raids that is a good point but by the time you are doing them you are almost capped anyways and not many use for xp anyway with the 3 day timers.

[fluffybunnywilson]

What if someone races to cap with a suboptimal character who has no raid loot who then TRs, makes a better but still not optimal character without a good reincarnation cache and twink items for different level ranges or lots of plat and ingredients to finance it? They lack the skill AND the equipment to play Elite only, should they scrap their character?


What if someone makes a 6 Cha Half Orc Sorcerer and levels it up to 6 and then finally decides that they their character lacks the ability to run quests even on Casual. Should they scrap their character?

I do see your point and I do think that there are some significant disadvantages that come with MadFloyd's gedankenexperiment. I think that most of those disadvantages could be at least mitigated by making an announcement of an upcoming change with enough lead time for players to finish capping whatever characters they have that couldn't survive an Elites-only life and a warning that their second and future lives are probably going to be a lot harder than their first lives.

Nothing forces players to TR their characters now. Nothing would force players to TR their characters if this change were put in place. The question is which TR system do people like better given the advantages and disadvantages that each brings?

[Cyr]

What if someone races to cap with a suboptimal character who has no raid loot who then TRs, makes a better but still not optimal character without a good reincarnation cache and twink items for different level ranges or lots of plat and ingredients to finance it? They lack the skill AND the equipment to play Elite only, should they scrap their character?

You can pike any character through to cap with a 1.9 million XP cap. I've got plenty of sub-optimal toons with sub-optimal gear myself. They can run elite content (in groups) just fine though. Of course I assume that raids can be done on any difficulty under this new proposed system (even if 0 xp for normal) so you can always gear up as you level also.

[grodon9999]

Turbine could also set a date for this change, say, 2012. So everyone who wants the super completionist would need to finish this year. That would encourage the super hardcore to work hard to get their completionist, if they already haven't.

And everyone else can run epics and stock up on hearts to TR with next year =D

Yeah, the community should get a least 1 months notice if something this big was happening.

[Asketes]

What if someone makes a 6 Cha Half Orc Sorcerer and levels it up to 6 and then finally decides that they their character lacks the ability to run quests even on Casual. Should they scrap their character?


a TR would *probably* know better or be able to compensate. I stress probably b/c it takes no skill to hit 20 and it's very easy to still not know what you are doing.

In that case, your only options are:

a) deal with it
b) use a heart of wood
c) delete/don't play that character any more

[Xaearth]

What if someone races to cap with a suboptimal character who has no raid loot who then TRs, makes a better but still not optimal character without a good reincarnation cache and twink items for different level ranges or lots of plat and ingredients to finance it? They lack the skill AND the equipment to play Elite only, should they scrap their character?

New with Update 11: Lesser Soul-shrinking Heart of Wood!
Now you can undo your mistake of True Reincarnation! You start back at level 1 of your past life with all of your gear and complete amnesia. You don't remember ever Reincarnating or your first life at all!

New with Update 12: True Soul-shrinking Heart of Wood!
Now you can undo your mistake of True Reincarnation! You start back at level 1 of your past life with all of your gear and all memories of your Reincarnation erased. You retain your experience from your first life and can level as you would when using a normal Lesser or Greater Reincarnation.

New with Update 14: Greater Soul-shrinking Heart of Wood!
Now you can undo your mistake of undoing your mistake of True Reincarnation with a Lesser Soul-shrinking Heart of Wood! You start back at level 1 of your past life with all of your gear and all memories of your Reincarnation and your un-Reincarnation erased. You retain your experience from the first life before your True Reincarnation and can level as you would when using a normal Lesser or Greater Reincarnation.

:rolleyes:

[justagame]

The OP idea would make the lvling process of TRs a little more challenging and a lot less grindy, and those are 2 good things, aren't they? :) It would reduce the time you need to cap a TR character, giving possibilities also to people who can't play 10 hours/day to TR and have fun relevelling without taking them ages to get back to the cap ;)

It's not just about total time required, it's about the intensity required. To give you an idea, some of my gaming sessions, are "all-in". Focused attention, mic and speakers on, long periods without interruptions. I like to run the more challenging quests, and elite quests, raids, etc. during these times. It's a blast, I love it.

However, real life limits the above. Most adults can't devote long periods of uninterrupted time. Many many more of my playing sessions are like this: one earbud in, but no mic, i've got a baby monitor on, I don't want to wake up my wife or child and get aggro, yet if something happens I need to respond asap. Or, I've got a little pocket of time, and want to do a quick run that requires little coordination, because I'm not going to be able to shut the door and direct people in a tough quest that has little margin for error or a lapse in coordination. I'm most likely going to run with friends, who always get it, or maybe a solo or 2-3-man run on a difficulty that has a little more margin for error/interruption. I'm not going to heal coal elite at level in this scenario.

The problem is, #2 is most of my playing time right now. However, I consider myself a decent player, and wouldn't want to have to forgo the option of TR-ing just because my playing time doesn't fit the "always uber hard" model.

My point is this: Don't assume all of your players are the same. We tend to think in extremes -- players are either clueless noobs, or longtime hardcore uber players who can totally immerse themselves for hours at a time, and can level to 20 in 2 weeks. But most people I play with are neither. While most good players love a good challenge, if you FORCE it on them full time, they will only play rarely. You will have eliminated the casual but solid player.

[Cyr]

Sure it sounds good in the beginning, but by Elite only, you eliminate 80% or more the player base. Not everyone is ready or geared for Elite. Heck, sometimes it's hard to complete a quest on "Normal."

How many "regular" players are really ready for Elite quest? It will be extremely difficult for a TR to put a group together for ToD, Shroud, Amarth, etc.

/Not signed

I think raids should be able to be run at any difficulty (even at 0 xp) as well as flagging quests. Take those away as barriers to obtaining gear and there is no one that can not run elite content. They may have a hard time with it, but they could certainly do it.

Once you have leveled to 20 you should be able to pass over the you must be this tall bar of being able to run elite content. Very few run Amarath for XP on TR's now, with a 1.9 million XP for 20 they most certainly would not have to then either. They could run DD, IQ, Reavers Refuge, Vale, and the upcoming packs this year and cap easily that way...heck on many of my first life toons I hit cap almost entirely by running shrouds, vods, and hounds. The xp is really dramatically different when it is not 4.3 million.

[Barazon]

As many people have said, the only reasonable way to do this would be to change the XP required for TRs back to that of a first life.

If you do this, what happens to people who are already in the middle of a TR? In the absurd case, they jump from being level 16 to having achieved maximum xp and can level up to 20 (1.9M puts you about halfway through level 16). Even more absurd, they could be currently 15 with enough xp to be halfway through 16, and jump straight to 20!

At the opposite end, you scale their currently earned xp so that they have a different amount but are the same % through level 16. However, they may have ruined their advancement path by doing things on elite before they "should have" under the new system, and you've made it very difficult for them to reach 20, now that they've done too much on elite and elite is now the only way to get xp.

Edit: took my numbers from a first TR. Second TR and beyond, 1.9M would put you 3/4 of the way through level 14!

[protokon]

In most quests, elite difficulty means not running through the traps.

If that is really too hard to do..you shouldn't be TRing anyways should be instead getting more familiar with the game content / mechanics.

[Impaqt]

wow...

I dont think I've ever seen such a bad idea get so much support...

You mean I can no longer group with friends because I am running a TR and they arent?

there is already some significant divisions in this game.... We dont need one like this. I want to play with whomever I want at any time in any quest. locking out casual/Normal quests for TR's would not be a good move.

[Asketes]

Because TR's are assumed to be stronger toons then a first life toon. This is a reasonable assumption because there are less and less multiple year old toons that are on their first lives and not yet at cap (unlike when the level cap was being raised slowly). Oh, the assumed to be stronger comes from assumed better loot and the assumption that they have at least played the game long enough to get to cap once.

that's my point. all toons from a skilled and experienced player are filled to the brim with twink items. It just seems a slippery slope to me personally. it's not hard to PWN the crud out of anything, even on a non-tr, when you're leveling. Especially with random pugs. Having a TR doesn't add too much more to that - a little bit sure, but it's only building on what already exists.

[Barazon]

A good TR would be able to instruct any ungeared, relatively intelligent player in how to work with them to get through a quest on elite.


The problem is, many players are morons. I was in a Reaver's Fate raid the other day, Stormreaver is almost dead and no one has fly. Seven people are yelling at 5 players to stop beating on the Stormreaver, yet they keep pummeling him. Finally I yelled "I take it back, please kill him so it is impossible for us to complete!" and they finally stopped.

My wife was in a group the next day and NOTHING they said would get people to stop attacking and they failed.

[countfitz]

I endorse this idea with a simple nod to Lithic's point: Raids exempt from difficulty requirement (any 12 man instance isn't locked difficulty for tr characters, any 6 man instance is).

Another option, in deference to quests like devil assault that have unique loot that appears on lower difficulties and not higher ones, is that the restriction vanishes when you cap.

simple, easy..do it..please.

I'd be fine with the OP's idea (neither support nor DOooOOoOMMmM!!1!!1 it) as long as it is unified, so NO to this or any other suggestion like this. If you don't get XP for normal as a TR, that includes Shroud runs, VOD normal, casual dq1, and all the other easy buttons we have. Feel free to normal shroud run for ings all you like, or casual dq1 for flagging, or VOD to get your 20th, just no XP. Same for any raid. Not that the devs will ever do this anyway, but if they did, keep it the same for EVERYTHING, no XP for normal = no XP for normal, in any situation.

Edit: I think this poster and I have a different idea of the OP's suggestion. I interpret him to say you can't do the quests for XP, while I think this poster thinks you'd simply be locked out. In fact, we may agree on everything

[justagame]

In most quests, elite difficulty means not running through the traps.

If that is really too hard to do..you shouldn't be TRing anyways should be instead getting more familiar with the game content / mechanics.

So, if I just want to run with a buddy that's not a rogue, and don't have the time to get involved with directing a pug, I just shouldn't TR?

[Gleep_Wurp]

/not signed

[Waylayer]

What if someone races to cap with a suboptimal character who has no raid loot who then TRs, makes a better but still not optimal character without a good reincarnation cache and twink items for different level ranges or lots of plat and ingredients to finance it? They lack the skill AND the equipment to play Elite only, should they scrap their character?

This would be me - well except the race to cap part, and the sub-optimal build part - otherwise this would be me :)

I don't have great gear, never will have great gear. I like leveling; I have quite other games because when there aren't any levels left - I have nothing enjoyable to do. (For my play stile, grinding for XP is fine - grinding for gear is not).

Case in point. I have an exploiter build with 62 AC. The maximum he can get on his own. If I TR him into another Exploiter (unlikely, but it could happen) I can pick up 1 point of STR (no use), two points of Int (meh - I have plenty of skill points) or two points of Wisdom or Charisma - obviously I will choose the wisdom and the +1 AC. Playing on "normal" my AC serves me fine - tell me how far that will get me on elite???

[Trillea]

wow...

I dont think I've ever seen such a bad idea get so much support...

You mean I can no longer group with friends because I am running a TR and they arent?

there is already some significant divisions in this game.... We dont need one like this. I want to play with whomever I want at any time in any quest. locking out casual/Normal quests for TR's would not be a good move.

No, what it means is that you can group with your non-TR friends for longer, as you will no longer be outleveled by them. Sure it means that they run on higher difficulty levels than they may be used to, but it also means that they might learn some tricks that they may not have otherwise. I disagree with complete lockout of casual/norm/hard (mostly for item farming purposes - dagnabbed bauble..), but I support severely reduced XP for them.

[countfitz]

wow...

I dont think I've ever seen such a bad idea get so much support...

You mean I can no longer group with friends because I am running a TR and they arent?

there is already some significant divisions in this game.... We dont need one like this. I want to play with whomever I want at any time in any quest. locking out casual/Normal quests for TR's would not be a good move.

So as I just stated in the post above (edit: wow, ninjas, like 5 posts up now), I'm not sure that's what the OP is suggesting. If he IS, you are SO RIGHT. But I think, from rereading a post or two, including another I just commented on, that the OP is stating you don't get XP for it, so you could still run things on normal, perhaps to unlock elite etc., or to do loot runs, or what have you. If you are simply locked out I think it is a terrible idea.

[grodon9999]

So as I just stated in the post above (edit: wow, ninjas, like 5 posts up now), I'm not sure that's what the OP is suggesting. If he IS, you are SO RIGHT. But I think, from rereading a post or two, including another I just commented on, that the OP is stating you don't get XP for it, so you could still run things on normal, perhaps to unlock elite etc., or to do loot runs, or what have you. If you are simply locked out I think it is a terrible idea.

I'm the OP - this isn't my idea, I'm asking Madfloyd if HIS idea actually might see the light of day.

What I think would work best is 1.9 million for cap regardless of 32/34/36-point life but significant XP penalties for running stuff under Elite if you're a TR. What that % is is up for debate.

[pHo3nix]

So, if I just want to run with a buddy that's not a rogue, and don't have the time to get involved with directing a pug, I just shouldn't TR?

I cannot think of a single quest where you cannot time the traps / die and rez on the other side of the traps/ run through with enough hp to survive or evasion. Rogues that disable traps are nice for xp, but far from being needed to complete quests.

I suppose that TRs would still be able to go in on casual/norm/hard, simply they don't get xp doing quest on those difficulties.

[Impaqt]

So as I just stated in the post above (edit: wow, ninjas, like 5 posts up now), I'm not sure that's what the OP is suggesting. If he IS, you are SO RIGHT. But I think, from rereading a post or two, including another I just commented on, that the OP is stating you don't get XP for it, so you could still run things on normal, perhaps to unlock elite etc., or to do loot runs, or what have you. If you are simply locked out I think it is a terrible idea.

I dont want to run it without [proper] xp ether....

Most of the quests in this game give pretty crappy xp as it is... Now I get punished because I TR'd?

forget that.

the grind is already bad. especially double. but I'd rather grind xp and have fun that be forced to play a certain way.

[Tobril]

/signed

This is an excellent idea. I disagree with people saying this would be bad for grouping. A good TR would be able to instruct any ungeared, relatively intelligent player in how to work with them to get through a quest on elite.


Try this and let me know how it goes.




But, instead of locking out norm/hard, the TR should just not get xp for norm/hard. That way they can still group with friends that want to run on lower difficulties. I think that might appease everyone.
So why are they doing the quest? Bonuses for hard/elite, not
penalties to regular play are the way to go here.



And as far as completionist goes, people who get completionist before this change should get something extra. Maybe an extra +1 to all stats on the completionist feat.

Turbine could also set a date for this change, say, 2012. So everyone who wants the super completionist would need to finish this year. That would encourage the super hardcore to work hard to get their completionist, if they already haven't.
This widens the “have” and “have not” gap between
veterans and new players even more than it is today.



And everyone else can run epics and stock up on hearts to TR with next year =D Some people have jobs that grant them a lot of disposable
income and don’t want to run epics.


Again…forcing things on people is bad for the game and
the business model that supports it.

[Bilger]

I dont want to run it without [proper] xp ether....

Most of the quests in this game give pretty crappy xp as it is... Now I get punished because I TR'd?

forget that.

the grind is already bad. especially double. but I'd rather grind xp and have fun that be forced to play a certain way.

Whats the differance of getting less xp or having to get 2mill + more xp? It is same overall if xp is reduced significantly when not doing elite!!

[Tobril]

I dont want to run it without [proper] xp ether....

Most of the quests in this game give pretty crappy xp as it is... Now I get punished because I TR'd?

forget that.

the grind is already bad. especially double. but I'd rather grind xp and have fun that be forced to play a certain way.


OMFG I agree with Impact…


…the world is surely ending soon :)

[grodon9999]

Whats the differance of getting less xp or having to get 2mill + more xp? It is same overall if xp is reduced significantly when not doing elite!!

Exactly. If it was 50% less XP on normal for a 36-point life (and still only needed 1.9 million to cap) you could still "normal" your way back up to cap in about the same amount of time. Those who chose to play elite only can up their game to avoid grind.

[Trillea]

Exactly. If it was 50% less XP on normal for a 36-point life (and still only needed 1.9 million to cap) you could still "normal" your way back up to cap in about the same amount of time. Those who chose to play elite only can up their game to avoid grind.

Which is how it should be and should have been from the start. 4.3 mill XP is a LOT..

[Esserbe]

I've got plenty of sub-optimal toons with sub-optimal gear myself. They can run elite content (in groups) just fine though.

Yeah, but you or I aren't the average level 1-15 player. Many people struggle with elite quests, sometimes one or two people who don't struggle with them due to experience, and sometimes gear on top, can (or have to) carry an entire group, I've been in this situation myself, most recently today.

I'm all for more challenge, thus I think the return of underlevel bonuses (with even higher bonuses perhaps?) is a GREAT idea. Perhaps a lot of the less often run quests need an XP adjustment in order to make them "worthwhile" and reduce the grind from running all the same quests all the time? It's clear that a lot of people want change, but many of the ideas presented in this thread are approaching the subject from the wrong angle in my opinion.

[Chai]

Because TR's are assumed to be stronger toons then a first life toon. This is a reasonable assumption because there are less and less multiple year old toons that are on their first lives and not yet at cap (unlike when the level cap was being raised slowly). Oh, the assumed to be stronger comes from assumed better loot and the assumption that they have at least played the game long enough to get to cap once.

I dont agree with that assumption due to the fact that the only indicator to allow for TR is getting to level 20. Clearly there are many people who have capped a toon at 20 who are not ready for harder difficulty to be enforced on them as an absolute, or even as an incentive, due to the fact that the learning curve to play this game to level 20 is minimal. There are plenty of players of level 20 toons who have no idea in regards to character building, DR breaking, debuff removal, etc it is astounding. While I agree with the suggestion on a personal level, when I look at this through the eyes of a business, it would be a bad business decision to enforce harder difficulty gaming due to the lack of a learning curve to play into the higher levels and survive regularly at those difficulties.

I have seen remarks by specific posters in other threads that the current state of the TR game turns them into jerks who kick people for silly deaths or not being able to solo a tower in wizard king in 10 minutes or less. The current suggestion would net us MORE of this, not less, due to the number of players who can TR, simply due to schlubbing their way to 20, who are clearly not ready for the higher difficulty game.

Dont get me wrong, as personally I would have a blast rolling higher difficulty content and having it pay off. Business wise, it would not be a decision that would keep newer players around for long periods of time.

[Impaqt]

Whats the differance of getting less xp or having to get 2mill + more xp? It is same overall if xp is reduced significantly when not doing elite!!

Point to me where he said anything about reducing the XP requirement? That was something totally assumed on the part of people here in the thread....

[SaisMatters]

The only thing that bothers me about this is that it would really limit soloing on some classes IMO. I find it hard to fill pugs these days so I solo quite abit.
Also, how would this effect f2p?

[Wizzly_Bear]

I think I like Bunker's idea a little better.

[Cyr]

I dont agree with that assumption due to the fact that the only indicator to allow for TR is getting to level 20. Clearly there are many people who have capped a toon at 20 who are not ready for harder difficulty to be enforced on them as an absolute, or even as an incentive, due to the fact that the learning curve to play this game to level 20 is minimal. There are plenty of players of level 20 toons who have no idea in regards to character building, DR breaking, debuff removal, etc it is astounding. While I agree with the suggestion on a personal level, when I look at this through the eyes of a business, it would be a bad business decision to enforce harder difficulty gaming due to the lack of a learning curve to play into the higher levels and survive regularly at those difficulties.

I have seen remarks by specific posters in other threads that the current state of the TR game turns them into jerks who kick people for silly deaths or not being able to solo a tower in wizard king in 10 minutes or less. The current suggestion would net us MORE of this, not less, due to the number of players who can TR, simply due to schlubbing their way to 20, who are clearly not ready for the higher difficulty game.

Dont get me wrong, as personally I would have a blast rolling higher difficulty content and having it pay off. Business wise, it would not be a decision that would keep newer players around for long periods of time.

Yup, but the second time would be hard/elite. If people are not learning by that step then they really are super pikers. If they are super pikers then they deserve to have a hard time on their TR2 and no one here should have any pity on them.

As for kicking peps more in this new system, heck no, at least for me personally. For me personally it would mean MUCH more grouping as solo elite is way way harder then solo normal/hard and with a lowered xp requirement it would be much less of a big deal if I lost out on 10% and EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY on elite dungeon scaling's results are very minimal compared to normal so even a 100% piker would not make much of a difference.

Real trick here is that dungeon scaling is an anti-grouping incentive. Wherever, it is least prominent there is more group play.

[Cyr]

The only thing that bothers me about this is that it would really limit soloing on some classes IMO. I find it hard to fill pugs these days so I solo quite abit.
Also, how would this effect f2p?

I would hope that this would be part of the point of this also...

People who mostly solo do not build as strong of ties to the community making a decision to leave the game easier for them. As for the availability of groups the moment this went live there would be tons of elite only running groups since everyone on a TR would have much stronger incentives to group.

[Cyr]

Point to me where he said anything about reducing the XP requirement? That was something totally assumed on the part of people here in the thread....

Actually it was something strongly suggested by those in this thread.

Very few in this thread think that a lock out of n/c or n/h/c with no other changes to the TR system would be a good idea at all, but many agree on modifications to this basic premise to make for a much better TR experience.

It's a package for those agreeing to this sort of thing, not a 'hey madfloyd do whatever you randomly think makes sense without fully reading the feedback we are giving'. We expect that Madfloyd is reading the qualifications (that are pretty similar in most cases) that people are putting on their support or strong support.

[Tobril]

If they are super pikers then they deserve to have a hard time on their TR2 and no one here should have any pity on them.


Perhaps some people are casual players and don't need to be kicked in the teeth.


Again, bonuses for people who want to be challenged on hard/elite is better than penalizing everyone.

[Zaodon]

Well I was just thinking out loud so to speak (hardly thought through), but yes. I like the spirit of more challenge and less grind, but I also get that restrictions can be undesirable.

I can think of some better implementations (as others already have) but I think in general I got the answer I was looking for.

Thanks.

Seems MadFloyd now sees this as the bad idea that it was.

Hope that clarifies everything.

[Seikojin]

The big gripe here are TR's wanting to make it to 20 faster than currently. Turbine doesn't need to make them able to run quests on elite only. They just need to adjust the cost to gain advancement in levels/ranks for second and thrid lives. That would stop that gripe.

If you want more variety of content, jyst give it time, Turbine makes new content a few times a year. More than other mmo's out there.

[Furare]

I TR in order to slow down my level progression enough so that I can do all the quests I want to do and still get XP for most of it. With a few exceptions I don't grind quests - VoN3 and Shadow Crypt spring to mind, but not really anything else - since I enjoy doing as many different quests as possible on my journey from L1 to L20. (I'm even getting better at the Mario sequences! I think. >.>) If I'm fond of a particular quest, I might like to run it on Normal, Hard and Elite, each time at the quest level, as much for the fun and the challenge - for example, the second Lordsmarch sequence on Elite is actually pretty challenging for a pair of L15 characters with hirelings - as for the XP.

I wouldn't want my questing habits and levelling to be restricted in any way just because some people have TR'd so often that they're fed up with grinding their way back to 20. Not everyone plays in order to get to cap as quickly as possible - I vastly prefer levelling and gaining XP to sitting at 20 and grinding out raid loot and epic tokens. Rebalancing anything about the game on the assumption that everyone just wants to tear through levelling content so they can get (back) to cap would lead to a flawed system, IMO.

[slimkj]

As I said in the other thread, I don't support this on the basis that it removes choice. A better implementation would be a far bigger differential between normal and elite xp so it rewards the challenge but doesn't remove the option to play. Sometimes I get home after a crappy day and want to play a TR but don't want to run elite, I should be able to still get something from that. If it's the weekend, I'm fresh and raring to go, I'd like that elite quest with a nice bump.

Maybe instead of 25%/25%/50% on a TR it could be 5%/25%/100% first time bonus or something. Not done the maths on the precise balance, the numbers would very likely end up looking different.

[SableShadow]

It's a package for those agreeing to this sort of thing, not a 'hey madfloyd do whatever you randomly think makes sense without fully reading the feedback we are giving'. We expect that Madfloyd is reading the qualifications (that are pretty similar in most cases) that people are putting on their support or strong support.

http://www.bpminstitute.org/Adams_BPMreqsFig1.jpg

Be careful what you ask for.

[mr_O]

/signed my friend this is a brilliant idea.

[waterboytkd]

When I was reading the Easy Button thread yesterday, I had the thought of locking out difficulties for TRs, but reducing the XP to cap to 1.9 million(probably inspired by someone else's reply). Never posted it, though (was busy questing), so don't I look like a Johnny-come-lately.

But after reading some of the opposition, the way I think would be best to institute it would be:

- No difficulty is locked out. You can run quests on whatever difficulty you want, with whomever you want.
- XP cap is dropped to 1.9 mil for all TRs, regardless on how many times they've TR'd.
- First TR (34 point build) have the following adjustments: all quests can be opened on hard the first time run, regardless of VIP or F2P or Premium status; any quest run on normal has a -50% XP penalty for the TR.
- Second+ TR (36 point build) have the following adjustments: all quests can be opened on elite the first time run, regardless of VIP or F2P or Premium status; any quest run on normal has a -80% XP penalty for the TR; any quest run on hard has a -50% XP penalty for the TR.

Percentages could be adjusted as necessary.

Leveling a TR would then be less grindy, but more difficult. They could still run with friends, regardless of difficulty, and could even get a little bit out of running quests on normal if they're with newbs (not to be confused with noobs). And (in my mind) one of the biggest incentives of this system: you could run your TR with friends leveling non-TRs, and wouldn't get left in the leveling dust. I've had friends simply lose XP by not taking a level, or not take levels 19 and 20 on capped level 18 toon, just so they could keep running with a TR. That's crappy.

Also, with this system, you could run raids or hard 6-man quests on normal with PUGS, and still get the rewards (just not as much or any XP). So no pain there (unless you were really banking on shroud runs to cap your TR).

Another plus side? A lot more hard and elite lfms would be up, which is good for the challenge seekers and the favor farmers (the last point may not be in Turbine's best interests, but hey ;P).

As for instituting this? They would simply need to adjust the current XP of all non-capped TRs based on their current rank, and the percentage of that rank completed. Straight conversion, easy-peasy.

I endorse this idea.

[Waylayer]

Waterboy:

You proposition still penalizes the casual TR - that doesn't run things on Hard or Elite.

I can solo most elite stuff until level 8, most hard until level 15. After that I am stuck on normal. Under your plan I would have at least a 50% reduction in XP from level 15 to 20.

Yes I could group with people. I have characters that do. I also have characters that do not.

[pHo3nix]

When I was reading the Easy Button thread yesterday, I had the thought of locking out difficulties for TRs, but reducing the XP to cap to 1.9 million(probably inspired by someone else's reply). Never posted it, though (was busy questing), so don't I look like a Johnny-come-lately.

But after reading some of the opposition, the way I think would be best to institute it would be:

- No difficulty is locked out. You can run quests on whatever difficulty you want, with whomever you want.
- XP cap is dropped to 1.9 mil for all TRs, regardless on how many times they've TR'd.
- First TR (34 point build) have the following adjustments: all quests can be opened on hard the first time run, regardless of VIP or F2P or Premium status; any quest run on normal has a -50% XP penalty for the TR.
- Second+ TR (36 point build) have the following adjustments: all quests can be opened on elite the first time run, regardless of VIP or F2P or Premium status; any quest run on normal has a -80% XP penalty for the TR; any quest run on hard has a -50% XP penalty for the TR.

Percentages could be adjusted as necessary.

Leveling a TR would then be less grindy, but more difficult. They could still run with friends, regardless of difficulty, and could even get a little bit out of running quests on normal if they're with newbs (not to be confused with noobs). And (in my mind) one of the biggest incentives of this system: you could run your TR with friends leveling non-TRs, and wouldn't get left in the leveling dust. I've had friends simply lose XP by not taking a level, or not take levels 19 and 20 on capped level 18 toon, just so they could keep running with a TR. That's crappy.

Also, with this system, you could run raids or hard 6-man quests on normal with PUGS, and still get the rewards (just not as much or any XP). So no pain there (unless you were really banking on shroud runs to cap your TR).

Another plus side? A lot more hard and elite lfms would be up, which is good for the challenge seekers and the favor farmers (the last point may not be in Turbine's best interests, but hey ;P).

As for instituting this? They would simply need to adjust the current XP of all non-capped TRs based on their current rank, and the percentage of that rank completed. Straight conversion, easy-peasy.

I endorse this idea.

Perfect explanation :) Make it challenging, not a mindless grind ;)

[BlackSteel]

I like the suggestion. encouraging elite runs will also promote grouping. I dont think that it'll hurt the casual TR experience, as elite still isnt too difficult where you cant solo slow and steady. As compared to the zerg fest 1 hit KO'ing every enemy on normal (thanks to dungeon scaling). A competent group can zerg elite in nearly the same time as normal.

for me, it really only changes some of the late game quests that I adore to solo when I only have a few minutes. I dont see myself doing alot of solo completions of Enter the Kobold or Monastery on elite on my TR's. As kobold is easily soloed on normal/hard even on a nonevasion character, but elite is a royal PITA. And Monastery is still relatively easy up to the end room, but the respawns on the puzzle are incredibly difficult for a noncaster.

as to people mentioning being worried about transitioning to the system and what happens to people currently in a TR. I'd imagine the simple solution would be that you'd grandfather in that 4.3 million exp and can still grind normal. well maybe not so simple coding wise. Or possibly every TR would simply be converted over to whatever their rank is. Dinging up to 20 b/c you've already ground out 3 million exp on a TR2 would be out of the ?

I'm all for some change tho. I'm tired of being bored at end game. And I'm tired of grinding out normal quests in my sleep on a TR. Tired of there being a strong incentive NOT to group, b/c its usually not worth the effort/time, or the person doesnt contribute enough to offset scaling. I'm tired of not being challenged. Yes I COULD purposely slow down my leveling effort by intentionally making things harder by running elite x 9 instead of normal x 9, and by grouping with morons. But whats the incentive? Right now you're balancing a much better exp/time ratio versus your sanity. And for me, I just dont have enough play time for that to even be a real decision, the little time I get is about hitting the next level as quickly as possible while that exp pot is ticking.

[Seikojin]

As I said in the other thread, I don't support this on the basis that it removes choice. A better implementation would be a far bigger differential between normal and elite xp so it rewards the challenge but doesn't remove the option to play. Sometimes I get home after a crappy day and want to play a TR but don't want to run elite, I should be able to still get something from that. If it's the weekend, I'm fresh and raring to go, I'd like that elite quest with a nice bump.

Maybe instead of 25%/25%/50% on a TR it could be 5%/25%/100% first time bonus or something. Not done the maths on the precise balance, the numbers would very likely end up looking different.

Again, more easilly achieved if they just reduce the cost for advancement on tr's.

[Theolin]

How about something like this :

Cap stays at 1.9 MXp for all lives

First TR : -50% exp on normal
2+ TRs : -75% exp on normal, -50% on hard, hard difficulty granted for all quests

This I like

[Thrudh]

I dont want to run it without [proper] xp ether....

Most of the quests in this game give pretty crappy xp as it is... Now I get punished because I TR'd?

forget that.

the grind is already bad. especially double. but I'd rather grind xp and have fun that be forced to play a certain way.

If they reduce the amount of exp to level to 1.9 million for TRs, and if you run normals and hards mostly, and it takes you exactly as many hours to cap as it does today, how do you lose?

And if you run mostly elite, you cap quicker than today...

How is that a penalty?

[Thrudh]

Point to me where he said anything about reducing the XP requirement? That was something totally assumed on the part of people here in the thread....

Well duh... obviously if they don't reduce the XP requirement, NONE OF US will be for this change.

I mean ZERO.

I'm pretty sure they know that. It's been stated enough times in the thread

[Wizzly_Bear]

Keep seeing lamentations for the "casuals". Since when was TRing meant for them?

[Thrudh]

Perhaps some people are casual players and don't need to be kicked in the teeth.

Casual players aren't double-TRing today...


Again, bonuses for people who want to be challenged on hard/elite is better than penalizing everyone.

If you reduce the XP requirements at the same time, then everyone gains... I'm sure % numbers can be found that will keep TR time about the same if you stick with normal and hard quests, while speeding up those who accept the challenge of running elite every quest.

[Thrudh]

I TR in order to slow down my level progression enough so that I can do all the quests I want to do and still get XP for most of it. With a few exceptions I don't grind quests - VoN3 and Shadow Crypt spring to mind, but not really anything else - since I enjoy doing as many different quests as possible on my journey from L1 to L20. (I'm even getting better at the Mario sequences! I think. >.>) If I'm fond of a particular quest, I might like to run it on Normal, Hard and Elite, each time at the quest level, as much for the fun and the challenge - for example, the second Lordsmarch sequence on Elite is actually pretty challenging for a pair of L15 characters with hirelings - as for the XP.

I wouldn't want my questing habits and levelling to be restricted in any way just because some people have TR'd so often that they're fed up with grinding their way back to 20. Not everyone plays in order to get to cap as quickly as possible - I vastly prefer levelling and gaining XP to sitting at 20 and grinding out raid loot and epic tokens. Rebalancing anything about the game on the assumption that everyone just wants to tear through levelling content so they can get (back) to cap would lead to a flawed system, IMO.

That's a good post...

I don't know how to balance this either... I don't think we should try it make zerging through TRs too much easier... But I would like to run challenging quests on my TRs... Instead I hit everything 1 level below me, which are super easy with my gear, because I HAVE to be smart about experience past level 12...

There needs to be some way to allow me to run quests above my level that challenge my TR without ruining my chances for advancing later. I'm no zerger... I just don't want to be doing Gianthold at level 16... It's just too easy...

[GotSomeQuestions]

Waterboy:

You proposition still penalizes the casual TR - that doesn't run things on Hard or Elite.

I can solo most elite stuff until level 8, most hard until level 15. After that I am stuck on normal. Under your plan I would have at least a 50% reduction in XP from level 15 to 20.
But your XP requirements from 15 to 20 would drop as well, and probably by more than 50%, because of how the TR XP requirements scale up as you get closer to cap. Ideally, the system would be balanced so that you're advancing no slower than before, but with the option to advance faster by playing the more challenging elite quests.

But this raises a good point, people will NOT be happy with a penalty, even if their XP requirement is lower. Psychologically, you have to give a bonus for elite, not a penalty for normal, or else people will be up in arms. It doesn't matter what the numbers are (since you can make the end result come out the same either way), a bonus feels like a reward for elite, while a penalty feels like a punishment for normal. That's just how people are.

[floating]

From the "Easy Button" thread:



Several of us think this would be the greatest thing to hit the game, leave the XP at 1.9 Million but require quests to be run on elite for TRs to get XP.

Devs - is this a possibility, actually being considered?


Interesting idea. Huge thumbs down. Moving on.

Actually i might as well edit to say that this would decrease the amount of material I would have to cover to cap. In fact you do this and ill get my multi-tr toons to 20 even faster playing just short evenings as i have been often recently. It will be like the good old holidays when i could play all day. Except it would be a cake walk in less than half the time. Heck, getting an amount of xp equivalent to a first life even having to run elite on a toon with every piece of gear in the game (or nearly so including over 17 minutes of haste from shroud) would be a joke. The only difficult ive played recently is "in the flesh" at level. So since this idea is terrible, lets find one that works shall we?

Here's the criteria

-Less need to grind quests repeatedly making trs more interesting to more casual players
-Devs want you to play less of the same thing so that all their packs get used and premium players buy more packs.

know what new thread ill post link here in a bit.

[Thrudh]

Interesting idea. Huge thumbs down. Moving on.

See ya.

[Kushiel]

Casual players aren't double-TRing today...



If you reduce the XP requirements at the same time, then everyone gains... I'm sure % numbers can be found that will keep TR time about the same if you stick with normal and hard quests, while speeding up those who accept the challenge of running elite every quest.

...and about to start my 4th life. I put a fair number of hours into this world, and have since Headstart, but I don't do Epics and I don't do Shroud and I barely touch some other groups of quests (and there are things I flat out avoid because I hate them).

I'm casual in that I'm looking to play in the world, see my character advance, and not be subjected to annoyances, frustrations, and tyrranical methodologies imposed by people who think *my* experience should be more challenging.

As things are now, I can run difficulties I like at levels I like and do some amount of repetitions when it lines up well. I'm not on a mad dash race back up to 20. I'm kind of thinking I'm going to try to do the 3 lives of every class before I take my final Bard life again - and I'm expecting that to be a 5 year mission. ;-}

During that time I expect Turbine to drop some more content that will make level ranges of it more fulfilling than they are currently. I just hope they are *fun* additions of content.

[Blank_Zero]

I like it.

Except for the fact that I solo too much >.>

[Cyr]

Perhaps some people are casual players and don't need to be kicked in the teeth.


Again, bonuses for people who want to be challenged on hard/elite is better than penalizing everyone.

I'm sorry, but when does the casual player's need stuff easy argument start to become silly?

Apparently TR2+ toons are not far enough.

Seriously, once you hit a TR2+ you've played the game enough to have an idea how it works. If first life toons can do elites then so can 'casual' players on TR2+ toons.

The only thing different from a casual player and a hard core player is time they put in per week/month. That has relatively little bearing on the low bar of being moderately competent at the game that should be expected from anyone who has leveled to 20 twice (or more).