Is Crafting in DDO currently viable

[Captain_Wizbang]

The forums are riddled with threads about the new system.

We haven't discussed what ANY crafting system does to the treasure generator system, game mechanics, or future content development.

Unlike D&D (pen & paper), DDO has introduced yet another crafting system (I count 6 systems including stuff like mabar & CC) and hasn't even begun to introduce what is essential to any of these systems. What qualifies you, and at what degree should you be allowed to craft.

As DDO is an MMO & is a quick reward based game, we can't expect Turbine to implement a system similar to D&D, BUT we should expect a more in-depth approach to what is ultimately our goal in D&D or DDO, making our own stuff!

I play PnP twice a week v 2.0 rules with some fellow old timers, (2 out of 8 play DDO) and we have lately spent 2 days discussing how this system is being utilized & abused in DDO.
__________________________________________________ ___

The first point of crafting is to give players the opportunity to develop skills & knowledge that can result in a chance that they can create something.

It might be as simple as an alignment *curse* and is bound to that character until & after death (if your deity raises you) OR can be as complex as adding transmuting (metaline) along with say, hamstring.

At either end of the spectrum, crafting lore & success isn't something that is handed out like mana pots after a ToD!

Secondly; finding the items needed for even a simple alignment attribute should be arduous at best!

Even with 3.5 rules and a cheesy DM, "ingredients" & mentors to teach you the desired path of crafting you want, are hard to come by. Thus resulting in a balanced & well deserved chance to craft.

Thirdly (this is the biggie) crafting is to say the least, a Turkey shoot. (how did we get the known recipes for GS? trial & error)

At no time, should a successful craft be an automatic thing.

PERIOD!

I believe Turbine pushed the easy peasy button when all correct items placed in a device yielded what you expect (& demand) from that ritual. And in defense of turbine, the new system at least has an experience & leveling curve.

__________________________________________________

Our system is too automatic & geared towards the point & shoot mentality of a video game, and not based on what DDO should strive for, D&D applied to this game.

Can it be fixed?

Should it be fixed?

How to fix it?

__________________________________________________

OP has developed over 20 modules (not published by Wotc) , long/ short/ hard/ easy. and all have had the built-in D20 system of the chance to succeed or fail!
So should our crafting system, just like D&D!

In ANY rpg, a fumble, is a fumble! (roll a one)

[BOgre]

don't agree.

in any society there exist tradesmen and craftsmen who are willing and eager to share their art with a skilled an eager apprentice. If we wish to learn to be smiths, we should be able to do so, and as we progress from apprentices, through journeymen, to craftsmen and artisans, our ability to craft items of greater complexity increases. Our chance for success however, should always be high at each level of progression. Even a lousy first day smith can make a passable dagger or helmet.

Again, I say look at LotRO. Their crafting system is simple and intuitive, includes chances for critical success with the use of a booster for a chance at a superior product, incorporates minimal grind, and encourages massively multiplayer cooperation.

In the lotro system, all characters are not smiths. One chooses a 'Vocation', and each vocation will consist of three 'Trades'. Each trade will have its own level-progression, and each trade will be a vital contributor to the chosen vocation's end crafting products. However, there will always be one missing component in each recipe; something the character cannot buy or craft themselves, which necessitates trade.

Example: Vocation-Armorer (Armor/Sheild/Helmet Smith), Trades-Prospector(mine ore <gather collectibles>), Metalsmith (smelt and process ores into ingots, plates, rings, etc), and Tailor (stitch leather and cloth). Together the craftsman uses his trades to create armor, however, he can't make leather. He can gather hides, but he'll need to trade the hides (or other of his smelted/mined ores) for the leathers he needs.

This also encourages diversity in the vocations and trades. There are farmers, hunters, cooks, etc., lending the feeling of realism that a world full of smiths obviously lacks.

In any case, i DO agree that the current crafting system is wanting in many ways, but to say that an adventurer who choses to learn a crafting skill should only have a minimal chance at success is counter productive at best. Who would ever invest time (and money) into such a system? As it is, the system is turning people off daily, imagine the backlash if all your grinding amounted to a failed attempt?

/not signed

I'm not sure why Turbine felt the need to re-invent the wheel here, when they had a successful system already in place in LotRO.

[Celastelin]

So you are saying the crafting system is a little too viable? I'm thinking it's either too tough or just right, given the requirements of crafting really good gear. If they introduce a system like this, I don't think anyone would craft. We already have the random loot system via quest end rewards and chests throughout the game.

[wonkey]

I don't play LOTRO, but my impression from somewhere or other is that there is a lot more non-questing stuff and world-immersion in general over there. Which is neither good nor bad, just different.

I'd guess that the crafting you described involves non-questing stuff, like cuttting wood, or hammering an anvil, or other stuff that would, personally, bore me to tears.

The devs decided to lend a DDO flavour to their crafting system, and make it based off of quest activities. In fact, I think it will become more and more popular, if people still are trying it, as people spend more time questing, and pick up their essences there, alongside deconning trash they find, than trying to level to max in a week by grabbing every piece of equipment they can get their hands on, and deconning. Then making price comparisons.

Also, again, I don't know how it is in LOTRO, but here a big focus seems to be the flexibility inherant in the system.

I haven't crafted very much at all, but I'm liking what I've seen.
Hope the devs don't respond to the complaining by going overboard, making it too easy to make great items, and making other looting methods obsolete.

[Captain_Wizbang]

So you are saying the crafting system is a little too viable?
I never said! I asked.
And I disagree with your reply, as it is based too loosely around your experiences.
Which is not the intent of thread.




I'd guess that the crafting you described involves non-questing stuff, like cuttting wood, or hammering an anvil, or other stuff that would, personally, bore me to tears.
I haven't crafted very much at all, but I'm liking what I've seen.
Hope the devs don't respond to the complaining by going overboard, making it too easy to make great items, and making other looting methods obsolete.

They already did in the Mabar & CC events.

My point is asking if its viable to continue the current direction as a whole, for crafting.
The new system is closer to what D20 systems employ, and is moving in the right direction.
My original post might not clarify it, but, letting people craft ANYTHING they want is hitting an easy button, and needs to be discussed.

SO... how would you change/ fix it?

[muffinlad]

don't agree.

in any society there exist tradesmen and craftsmen who are willing and eager to share their art with a skilled an eager apprentice. If we wish to learn to be smiths, we should be able to do so, and as we progress from apprentices, through journeymen, to craftsmen and artisans, our ability to craft items of greater complexity increases. Our chance for success however, should always be high at each level of progression. Even a lousy first day smith can make a passable dagger or helmet.

Again, I say look at LotRO. Their crafting system is simple and intuitive, includes chances for critical success with the use of a booster for a chance at a superior product, incorporates minimal grind, and encourages massively multiplayer cooperation.

In the lotro system, all characters are not smiths. One chooses a 'Vocation', and each vocation will consist of three 'Trades'. Each trade will have its own level-progression, and each trade will be a vital contributor to the chosen vocation's end crafting products. However, there will always be one missing component in each recipe; something the character cannot buy or craft themselves, which necessitates trade.

Example: Vocation-Armorer (Armor/Sheild/Helmet Smith), Trades-Prospector(mine ore <gather collectibles>), Metalsmith (smelt and process ores into ingots, plates, rings, etc), and Tailor (stitch leather and cloth). Together the craftsman uses his trades to create armor, however, he can't make leather. He can gather hides, but he'll need to trade the hides (or other of his smelted/mined ores) for the leathers he needs.

This also encourages diversity in the vocations and trades. There are farmers, hunters, cooks, etc., lending the feeling of realism that a world full of smiths obviously lacks.

In any case, i DO agree that the current crafting system is wanting in many ways, but to say that an adventurer who choses to learn a crafting skill should only have a minimal chance at success is counter productive at best. Who would ever invest time (and money) into such a system? As it is, the system is turning people off daily, imagine the backlash if all your grinding amounted to a failed attempt?

/not signed

I'm not sure why Turbine felt the need to re-invent the wheel here, when they had a successful system already in place in LotRO.

I pretty much agree with this entirely.

I think LOTRO's system is far more thought out, and I hope that DDO borrows from it a great deal for future improvements.

My personal ideal would be a system that encourages diversification of different crafting types, and the trading of materials for superior item production. As it sits now, you are basically crafting only for yourself, for your immediate character.

I know they are planning to change it, and I can see where they were coming from- If only ONE of your toons has to level in crafting, then it limits the playability. What they should have seen from the get-go is a level where you had to set your crafting preference-

So- I choose Primary Crafting as Elemental- I can go to level 100. Secondary as Arcane, I can go to level 60, and Divine as least, I can go to level 20 (Numbers not exact- just finger in the air), and I would have to have other folks to craft different lines that are introduced. (Gem Cutter, Scribe, Alchemist, Fletcher, etc.)

It will take time to flesh out, so I hope they put more meat on the bones.

muffinflesh

[Cupcake]

EQ2 works basically the same way with Scholars, Outfitters and Craftsmen. When any of these hits lvl 20, they then specialize as sage, weaponsmith, carpenter, etc. Nodes out in the adventure areas are harvested for the material components needed to craft. The fuel is bought at the crafting stations.

They also have journeyman tradeskill quests to help increase your knowledge of your given craft and to gain additional recipes, crafting items, cloaks, etc.


don't agree.

in any society there exist tradesmen and craftsmen who are willing and eager to share their art with a skilled an eager apprentice. If we wish to learn to be smiths, we should be able to do so, and as we progress from apprentices, through journeymen, to craftsmen and artisans, our ability to craft items of greater complexity increases. Our chance for success however, should always be high at each level of progression. Even a lousy first day smith can make a passable dagger or helmet.

Again, I say look at LotRO. Their crafting system is simple and intuitive, includes chances for critical success with the use of a booster for a chance at a superior product, incorporates minimal grind, and encourages massively multiplayer cooperation.

In the lotro system, all characters are not smiths. One chooses a 'Vocation', and each vocation will consist of three 'Trades'. Each trade will have its own level-progression, and each trade will be a vital contributor to the chosen vocation's end crafting products. However, there will always be one missing component in each recipe; something the character cannot buy or craft themselves, which necessitates trade.

Example: Vocation-Armorer (Armor/Sheild/Helmet Smith), Trades-Prospector(mine ore <gather collectibles>), Metalsmith (smelt and process ores into ingots, plates, rings, etc), and Tailor (stitch leather and cloth). Together the craftsman uses his trades to create armor, however, he can't make leather. He can gather hides, but he'll need to trade the hides (or other of his smelted/mined ores) for the leathers he needs.

This also encourages diversity in the vocations and trades. There are farmers, hunters, cooks, etc., lending the feeling of realism that a world full of smiths obviously lacks.

In any case, i DO agree that the current crafting system is wanting in many ways, but to say that an adventurer who choses to learn a crafting skill should only have a minimal chance at success is counter productive at best. Who would ever invest time (and money) into such a system? As it is, the system is turning people off daily, imagine the backlash if all your grinding amounted to a failed attempt?

/not signed

I'm not sure why Turbine felt the need to re-invent the wheel here, when they had a successful system already in place in LotRO.

[Captain_Wizbang]

My personal ideal would be a system that encourages diversification of different crafting types, and the trading of materials for superior item production. As it sits now, you are basically crafting only for yourself, for your immediate character.

I know they are planning to change it, and I can see where they were coming from- If only ONE of your toons has to level in crafting, then it limits the playability. What they should have seen from the get-go is a level where you had to set your crafting preference-

So- I choose Primary Crafting as Elemental- I can go to level 100. Secondary as Arcane, I can go to level 60, and Divine as least, I can go to level 20 (Numbers not exact- just finger in the air), and I would have to have other folks to craft different lines that are introduced. (Gem Cutter, Scribe, Alchemist, Fletcher, etc.)muffinflesh


I'm liking this! Nice post.
It at the very least is a viable system, and relatively simple plan.

And yes, I thought of the Lotro system before I made the thread, knowing it would come up.

Good post muffin

[danotmano1998]

Haven't decided yet if it is "viable" as I have yet to do it.

One thing I enjoyed about crafting (Which, from what I read, doesn't apply to this system) was the thrill of finding a new recipe and trying to figure out where I needed to go to find the components.. These in and of itself created a realistic feel to things. In order to craft that shortsword of fire, You would have to journey into the fiery depths of the underdark and overcome the fire elementals just for a chance at an ingredient.

The current system sounds like a.. "Oh, look I found this. I'll just make it into whatever I want now." grind.. grind.. grind..

[Cupcake]

Haven't decided yet if it is "viable" as I have yet to do it.

One thing I enjoyed about crafting (Which, from what I read, doesn't apply to this system) was the thrill of finding a new recipe and trying to figure out where I needed to go to find the components.. These in and of itself created a realistic feel to things. In order to craft that shortsword of fire, You would have to journey into the fiery depths of the underdark and overcome the fire elementals just for a chance at an ingredient.The current system sounds like a.. "Oh, look I found this. I'll just make it into whatever I want now." grind.. grind.. grind..

Okay I have no issue whatsoever with that Idea. Going and journeying etc.

What I DO have an issue with is the simple fact that I have absolutely NO idea
where to start. I have essences in my ingredients bag. I went to the craftsman lady.
I read all the dialogue. I looked at the pages. And I STILL have no idea where to start or what to do.

Is it viable? Maybe for some. But, well again, its just me. I don't care for the system at all. What kind of suggestion would I have to improve the system?

Make it a little more clear where to find the recipes you need to make what it is you want. Make it a little more clear to understand what items you need, even if you have to collect so and so to make such and such shard. So at least people dense like me can figure it out instead of throwing up our hands and saying forget it.

[BOgre]

As far as the boredom of non-quest activities like hammering an anvil and chopping wood, well, lotro does have some of that, yes, but it feels more like picking up shinies than grinding components. For example collecting hides is simply a matter killing things and looting their bodies. We could implement that here easily in explorer zones, and dungeons, where there is a chance that a slain enemy's body becomes a shiny, click to loot, chance to get some crafting ingredient. Mining ore there is a matter of coming across an ore node, click to swing your hammer a couple times, loot the node for ore. 2 seconds longer than looting an 'adventurer's pack' or a 'mushroom'. Easily adaptable to our game. And the crafting itself is done at a crafting station, i.e. loom, oven, forge, so not really different than here, we still need to go to the house k crafting hall... I don't think it's a big addition of non-questing 'chores'. And at times it's a nice distraction from the constant questing. In fact, sitting down by the waterfall in cerulean hills for a few minutes of fishing seems like it'd be a relaxing pastime while waiting for a pug, or after a tough raid.

Also, I just want to stress that I'm not a super-advocate of brining lotro crafting here. I described it only because it was a system they had already developed and it worked well, so why re-invent. I also want to stress that my main point in responding to the thread (which is getting lost in my walls of text) is that I'm opposed to having crafting become a low probability of success d20 roll. It should be a skill one masters, worth doing, encouraging trade and social interaction, and above all FUN. This is a game, and shouldn't feel like work.

[wonkey]

As far as the boredom of non-quest activities like hammering an anvil and chopping wood, well, lotro does have some of that, yes, but it feels more like picking up shinies than grinding components. For example collecting hides is simply a matter killing things and looting their bodies. We could implement that here easily in explorer zones, and dungeons, where there is a chance that a slain enemy's body becomes a shiny, click to loot, chance to get some crafting ingredient.

The system works like that. Only DDO style. Like all rewards, they are on a completion of task/chest looting basis, rather than per kill basis. And I think that's great. People figuring out which explorer zones have high densities of mobs and going in there endlessly to farm ingredients is not my version of fun. And you know that in this kind of system, it would be balanced around that, so this kind of grind would be likely.
Rather, go, do your questing, and the shinnies appear in your regular reward lists.

EDIT: Also, you only discussed raw ingredient farming. But people have mentioned that others take those ingredients and make stuff out of them. Is this also "shiny" based, or more "sit, click, wait, repeat" style?

Mining ore there is a matter of coming across an ore node, click to swing your hammer a couple times, loot the node for ore. 2 seconds longer than looting an 'adventurer's pack' or a 'mushroom'. Easily adaptable to our game.

Are these nodes in randomized spots? Or are they something that people would camp/farm in order to get ingredients, with the system having to be balanced around that? If so, a big no thank you to that!!

And the crafting itself is done at a crafting station, i.e. loom, oven, forge, so not really different than here, we still need to go to the house k crafting hall... I don't think it's a big addition of non-questing 'chores'. And at times it's a nice distraction from the constant questing. In fact, sitting down by the waterfall in cerulean hills for a few minutes of fishing seems like it'd be a relaxing pastime while waiting for a pug, or after a tough raid.

Nice in theory. But likely terrible in reality. The system would be balanced around those people who spend hours "fishing" (read click to get ingredients. Wait. Click. Wait. click...)
Ugh.
Getting ingredients by questing is MUCH better in my book. No "chores" required.


Also, I just want to stress that I'm not a super-advocate of brining lotro crafting here. I described it only because it was a system they had already developed and it worked well, so why re-invent. I also want to stress that my main point in responding to the thread (which is getting lost in my walls of text) is that I'm opposed to having crafting become a low probability of success d20 roll. It should be a skill one masters, worth doing, encouraging trade and social interaction, and above all FUN. This is a game, and shouldn't feel like work.

Comments in red. I kinda like the basics of what they've done. Actually, from the bit I've seen, I like the system in general. But for the general populace, I think its more a question of tweaking than overhauling.
Fix a bit of the inventory issue. Get rid of the bad feeling of making lots of useless shards. Simplify figuring out how to get the effects you want for those who are confused, and I think you have a pretty win system.
Also, I think that, after a bit of time, people will warm up to it more.

[BOgre]

Comments in red.
People figuring out which explorer zones have high densities of mobs and going in there endlessly to farm ingredients is not my version of fun. I see your point, however, people figuring out which quests have high densities of essenses/shards in rewards lists and grinding those endlessly to farm ingredients isn't MY version of fun. Same chicken, different Coop.

Also, you only discussed raw ingredient farming. But people have mentioned that others take those ingredients and make stuff out of them. Is this also "shiny" based, or more "sit, click, wait, repeat" style? Sit click wait, however you can 'Make All' of a certain thing you happen to have a stack of, rather the mind numbing sit-click-wait DDO is now using in front of the decon and shard crafting devices. Add to the hilarity DDO's need to shuffle ingredients in and out of bags, rather than being able to use them right from where they are and you've doubled the time it takes to do the same basic thing. The thing you say you don't like is exactly what DDO is doing more of.

Are these nodes in randomized spots? Or are they something that people would camp/farm in order to get ingredients, with the system having to be balanced around that? If so, a big no thank you to that!! They are in spawn locations, (just like our collectibes are) but spawn rates are slow, so sitting in front of a node would be the height of boredom and not as productive as simply coming across nodes in the natural course of questing.

Nice in theory. But likely terrible in reality. The system would be balanced around those people who spend hours "fishing" (read click to get ingredients. Wait. Click. Wait. click...)
Ugh.
Getting ingredients by questing is MUCH better in my book. No "chores" required.
I see your point on this completely. There are people who would sit-click-wait all day long to grind out ingredients. No different than the raids we have here, where twinked TR's zerg a dungeon with zero challenge in it for them simply to grind out better gear to make themselves more uber and decrease the challenge even further.
Personally though, I look at the fishing aspect in lotro as a diversion. Ooooh, a Massive Goldfish! That'll make a cool trophy on my wall (hint hint housing!). Ooooh another salmon, nice, GuildieX was looking for those to make Salmon pie.... Tra laa laa, Look at that Bear, he's fishing too... <guild chat, guild chat, guild chat, advice chat, trade channel, guild chat> laa-de-dah....Something to do while chatting, Waiting for pugs, or just relaxing. Will there be people who turn it into a chore? Sure, but it beats DDO's system which is pre-designed to BE a chore.



Fix a bit of the inventory issue. Get rid of the bad feeling of making lots of useless shards. Simplify figuring out how to get the effects you want for those who are confused. Well, what you've just described is the whole system. It's broken and bad. Sooo, yeah, I agree, fix everything and it should be fine.

Responses in red. Please note, I'm not deliberately being a jerk, or picking on your reply, just trying to convince ya. That's probably not a good thing to try to do, but maybe you could go play lotro for a few hours and feel it out for yourself. I just think it feels better than DDO's does, that's all.

[Yorubi]

All I got from this was make crafting hard to access so the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Last I check, you don't start off making good items and you need to work it up. Even if you do so, people seem to consider it to not make to many worth wild things. Give a beta system a chance to form up. If crafting was on here like in PnP, no one would bother with such a boring task. Heck, if they dedicated it purely to what PnP is, we would have a turn based MMo that a select few hardcore DnD players would bother with. Making things more quick paced keeps interest and makes things feel more smooth.

[Kaledor]

I've crafted in almost every MMO I've played, the highlights would be WoW, EQ2, DAOC, Vanguard, SWG.

Some things I've learned, crafting is a grind, it is a time and money sink. In order to make quality goods that will sell to players it takes time and effort. I hated EQ2's crafting system, it was a horrible grind, but not as bad as DAOC, at least it was interactive. SWG was an easy system to learn, but was very complicated, with subcomponent and raw material stats. Wow was an easy grind, it went so quickly I forgot. The best crafting system out there was Vanguard I still really liked that crafting system. This system needs a bit of tweaking, but it has alot of promise. I plan on crafting, just because I've always enjoyed the crafting aspect of MMO's, plus it does make for a bit of coin here and there, and a way to really help the underpriveledged that come to The Harbor. ;)

[Marten]

My original post might not clarify it, but, letting people craft ANYTHING they want is hitting an easy button, and needs to be discussed.

SO... how would you change/ fix it?

Typically I say nothing when all I feel I can do is disagree, I am breaking that rule here, sadly. You say you are asking questions not making statements, but the fact is that your premise for the questions (your quote above) is a statement and not one I can agree with.

Currently I am at the following crafting levels
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/4224/screenshot00075m.jpg

Right now I can make items that would be useful for a first lifer that is level 10-15 and yes, these levels are the easy levels.

I spent a month testing crafting:
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/4438/craftingtab.jpg

With almost unlimited resources, spending 2-3 hrs a day I was able to cap Divine. On a live server this would have taken at least 4-6 months. 4-6 months to make items that are barely better than what I already have. So, yes the reward is making custom items and there was nothing EASY about it.

In fact, it was so UNEASY that those of us that tested it were able to successfully lobby for changes. As a direct result the head man himself made a post letting us know that we had been heard, change was going to happen and while the system was already to far integrated to be pulled its status would be changed to LIVE BETA.

If the point of your post was to request changes, its already on the way.

If the point of your post was to get ideas for change, lets here yours.

[muffinlad]

Marten,

All I can say is "that's a lot of crunching"... If I craft more than 30 min a day, my eyes glaze over.

Is there a link were we can read the changes you have already suggested?

Regs,

muffinbuild

[adamkatt]

A true mmo crafting system lets the specialized crafter create and sell to the public.. Im hoping this bound stuff goes the way of the dodo soon..

[Marten]

Marten,

All I can say is "that's a lot of crunching"... If I craft more than 30 min a day, my eyes glaze over.

Is there a link were we can read the changes you have already suggested?

Regs,

muffinbuild

It was a lot of grinding, but I am glad I did. It allowed me to test and find things that had been over looked. Sorry that I didn't think to test tierIII shroud crafting :(

Most of my suggestions are scatter throughout the Lamannia forums but my major suggestions were sent privately directly to the Devs and I felt listen to. I have no idea what is in the pipe for U9.1 and frankly I am not sure the Devs do yet either as they are in fireman mode atm. Most of my suggestions were either time vs motion vs reward based. I also focused a lot on Monk issues as I feel monks needed someone to step up. There were other testers that had great game play ideas, so I didn't feel that I would add anything but noise in that area, publicly. My chats with Devs and PMs I keep personal. Like I said, I don't like to be a part of the dev bashing group.

As to my posts you can always click my name and sift through them, but if you want to see what I was most interested in, you can go HERE (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3774589) and watch a lot of the videos I made during testing.

Sorry if you feel I didn't answer your questions, but I hope you understand my desire to keep my dev chats private.

[Sorwen]

I never said! I asked.
And I disagree with your reply, as it is based too loosely around your experiences.
Which is not the intent of thread.


While you might not like the current system why should we then be subjected to the system you would want. It doesn't fit into D&D 3.5 any more than this one does. Even less so in some cases. Doesn't it strike you as wrong to belittle someone elses opinion when in turn you are doing the same thing. Your suggestion is based too loosely around your experience. That doesn't make it invalid because it is just an opinion.

If we were going to adopt a system why not something at least a little closer to D&D 3.5. Get some more skills and skill points in. I would think something we wouldn't take is XP cost and Caster only for magic items. As someone said in another thread add XP cost just makes it prohibitive at this point for starting characters and supports those that have one or more maxed out characters. Casters only making magic items also seems overly prohibitive as well. That is all just my opinion though. :p



All I got from this was make crafting hard to access so the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Last I check, you don't start off making good items and you need to work it up. Even if you do so, people seem to consider it to not make to many worth wild things. Give a beta system a chance to form up. If crafting was on here like in PnP, no one would bother with such a boring task. Heck, if they dedicated it purely to what PnP is, we would have a turn based MMo that a select few hardcore DnD players would bother with. Making things more quick paced keeps interest and makes things feel more smooth.I would simply disagree that 150 levels with more than half making junk isn't exactly a "fast pace system". I'm not saying D&D 3.5 is the solution, just that it isn't any slower than the current system. It also has the added advantage of not being a grind.

[kcru]

So you are saying the crafting system is a little too viable? I'm thinking it's either too tough or just right, given the requirements of crafting really good gear. If they introduce a system like this, I don't think anyone would craft. We already have the random loot system via quest end rewards and chests throughout the game.


The system is flawed right now at the top end.

4 Lesser is easy
1 Great + 4 Lesser is ok (good till around 18 maybe?)
3 Great + 16 Lesser is starting to get a bit much... 2 Great, 10 Lesser would be better
6 Great + 64 Lesser is ridiculous

and it just gets more insane from there.... obviously they were deliberately wanting people to NOT level up their skill that far at this poiint in time.


The 50% cutoff basically means that it's impossible to craft many items that I have been able to wear for many levels now. I may NEVER be able to craft a Deathblock item because of the insane level they've assigned to it and the crazy escallating resource costs.

For now, I'm levelling the low end and trusting that they know it's borked and will fix it. It's a fair degree of trust. If it's misplaced,then they just cost me a ton of plat and time.

[kcru]

My personal ideal would be a system that encourages diversification of different crafting types, and the trading of materials for superior item production. As it sits now, you are basically crafting only for yourself, for your immediate character.


IF they had made it such that specializing was viable, then you'd get diversification naturally. Since we get random drops that go for all 3 types, and costs scale a lot as you go up, there's no incentive to throw away 20 levels of Arcane and Divine to get 2 more in Elemental, for example.


One way to do that would be to apply a scaling factor... an XP adjustment based on the ratio of your 3 schools. if you od nothing but Divine, you get 100% of the bonus. If you have even Arcane and Divine, you get 50%. If you have even of all 3, then 33%.


You're the most veratile if you do all 3, but will hit higher ranks faster if you just did one. Under that scenario, people would be twading essenses for their own crafting mode, and buying shards that they can't make.


I personally would have also made it so that each recipe tracks its own success rate, so not only could you be divine-specialized, but you could actually be Devotion-specialized (if you crank out a lot of Devotion items, your success rate may be 90% instead of a more usual 60%)

[Zildoran]

The system is flawed right now at the top end.

4 Lesser is easy
1 Great + 4 Lesser is ok (good till around 18 maybe?)
3 Great + 16 Lesser is starting to get a bit much... 2 Great, 10 Lesser would be better
6 Great + 64 Lesser is ridiculous

and it just gets more insane from there.... obviously they were deliberately wanting people to NOT level up their skill that far at this poiint in time.


The 50% cutoff basically means that it's impossible to craft many items that I have been able to wear for many levels now. I may NEVER be able to craft a Deathblock item because of the insane level they've assigned to it and the crazy escallating resource costs.

For now, I'm levelling the low end and trusting that they know it's borked and will fix it. It's a fair degree of trust. If it's misplaced,then they just cost me a ton of plat and time.

I'm starting to have issues with leveling Divine and Arcane around level 30. Before that it wasn't too hard, but even deconstructing level 5 I still get very few greater essences. The random greater essences from quests and chest loot help, but it's going to take months for me to get to 40 at this rate.

For reference I think I've spent around 300k-350k on essences and items to deconstruct on the auction house. If I remember right I'm at level 32 arcane, 30 divine, and 19 elemental (stopped on elemental nothing useful for me there). It's getting that 3 greater 16 lesser is hard to do. For example, right now I have over 200 lesser good essences right now and 1 greater. Being able to do something like to transmute 10 lesser into 1 greater would be reasonable I think.

[mystafyi]

Being able to do something like to transmute 10 lesser into 1 greater would be reasonable I think.

not recommended... I have over over 40 in some crafting schools and my problem now is not having enough lessers!

[Satinavian]

Even with 3.5 rules and a cheesy DM, "ingredients" & mentors to teach you the desired path of crafting you want, are hard to come by. Thus resulting in a balanced & well deserved chance to craft.

?

You had to take the feats, make sure, you have the spells and other requirements, buy xxxx gold worth of crafting materials, take the needed time, pay the xp and you had your gear. 100% success, no mentor needed.

It was an option to trade xp for gold with feats. And you got a little more freedom with choice of equipment.



But without things like houserules to ensure a low-magic campaign stays low-magic, the 3.5 crafting was extremely accessible, fail-proof and not at all like you want it to be. Only if the GM did restrict available items more than the books suggested, he would likely have the same reason to restrict crafting ingreds for these items. But that is not exactly the norm, instead the GP-limits apply as well to the ingredients.

Yea, 2nd Ed. was different. But DDO is meant to be based on 3.5.


But let's get to the questions


Our system is too automatic & geared towards the point & shoot mentality of a video game, and not based on what DDO should strive for, D&D applied to this game.

Can it be fixed?

Should it be fixed?

How to fix it?

What would happen, if the results were random ? Either no one would use it (not worth it) or the people would farm, attempting 100 times the same item to get the one rare extremely good result and toss the other 99 magic items away/vendor them. Making a small number of items or only one and live with having good luck or bad luck would simply not happen.

So ... predictable and reliable is good as crafting is concerned in a mmo.

[muffinlad]

It was a lot of grinding, but I am glad I did. It allowed me to test and find things that had been over looked. Sorry that I didn't think to test tierIII shroud crafting :(

Most of my suggestions are scatter throughout the Lamannia forums but my major suggestions were sent privately directly to the Devs and I felt listen to. I have no idea what is in the pipe for U9.1 and frankly I am not sure the Devs do yet either as they are in fireman mode atm. Most of my suggestions were either time vs motion vs reward based. I also focused a lot on Monk issues as I feel monks needed someone to step up. There were other testers that had great game play ideas, so I didn't feel that I would add anything but noise in that area, publicly. My chats with Devs and PMs I keep personal. Like I said, I don't like to be a part of the dev bashing group.

As to my posts you can always click my name and sift through them, but if you want to see what I was most interested in, you can go HERE (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3774589) and watch a lot of the videos I made during testing.

Sorry if you feel I didn't answer your questions, but I hope you understand my desire to keep my dev chats private.

Understood, and thanks for the additional info.

Regs,

muffinlad

[muffinlad]

IF they had made it such that specializing was viable, then you'd get diversification naturally. Since we get random drops that go for all 3 types, and costs scale a lot as you go up, there's no incentive to throw away 20 levels of Arcane and Divine to get 2 more in Elemental, for example.


One way to do that would be to apply a scaling factor... an XP adjustment based on the ratio of your 3 schools. if you od nothing but Divine, you get 100% of the bonus. If you have even Arcane and Divine, you get 50%. If you have even of all 3, then 33%.


You're the most veratile if you do all 3, but will hit higher ranks faster if you just did one. Under that scenario, people would be twading essenses for their own crafting mode, and buying shards that they can't make.


I personally would have also made it so that each recipe tracks its own success rate, so not only could you be divine-specialized, but you could actually be Devotion-specialized (if you crank out a lot of Devotion items, your success rate may be 90% instead of a more usual 60%)

Some very good points.

muffincrafty

[fluffybunnywilson]

I've been throwing all of my vendor trash into the crafting altar since U9 rolled out and I just crafted my first +4 Holy Silver Heavy Pick of Lawful Outsider Bane.

I threw a LOT of trash into that crafting device, but I can now make cheap and VERY effective Pit Fiend beaters for my Fighter and I'll be able to do so for all of my characters once the shards become BtA.

I would say that I put about as much effort as 20 Shrouds to get to this point, but crafting each Holy Silver [whatever] of Lawful Outsider Bane is going to be a lot less effort than crafting all of the junk XP shards was.

[muffinlad]

I've been throwing all of my vendor trash into the crafting altar since U9 rolled out and I just crafted my first +4 Holy Silver Heavy Pick of Lawful Outsider Bane.

I threw a LOT of trash into that crafting device, but I can now make cheap and VERY effective Pit Fiend beaters for my Fighter and I'll be able to do so for all of my characters once the shards become BtA.

I would say that I put about as much effort as 20 Shrouds to get to this point, but crafting each Holy Silver [whatever] of Lawful Outsider Bane is going to be a lot less effort than crafting all of the junk XP shards was.

Interesting. What would you say the most effective strategy is for getting to the level required?- I know Grind Everything- But did you do most of your shard making with 100% success recipes, or did you go with a lower level of success/higher exp points?

muffininqurier

[fluffybunnywilson]

Interesting. What would you say the most effective strategy is for getting to the level required?- I know Grind Everything- But did you do most of your shard making with 100% success recipes, or did you go with a lower level of success/higher exp points?

muffininqurier

I just looked for the shards that were 60-90% success rate with the fewest number of Greater Essences required.

If there were 10 recipes from level 25-30 and 5 of those recipes requried 10 Greater Essences, 3 required 6 Greater Essences and 2 required 3 Greater Essences, I'd just grind away at the "3 Greater Essences" recipes until I had to switch to

I focused mostly on getting the greatest XP/Greater Essence.


I'm now at the level where just about everything requries 10 Greater Essences and a bajillion Lesser Essences, so I think that my leveling is going to slow down quite a bit at this point. Still, being able to craft regular Bane weapons is pretty nice.

Once the BtA shards are available, my FvS is going to get some very nice treats. I have a bunch of Flametouched Iron and Silver Greatswords waitig for him, as well as a few Silver and Flametouched Iron Khopeshes waiting for when I make another Khopesh user someday.

[Seikojin]

With the way ddo is as a game, I think having a single toon crafter on top of everything else is a perfect fit.

As far as the current system, I think it fits too. It is not complete and it can be tweaked to be extended and offer more viability to have player made gear be the main source of gear in the game.

It is not impossible with the current system to make it possible to combine shards to allow special items (like necromantic scepters (offer necro and illusion focus, both being prefix abilities)) or upgrading a made item into epic.

There is a chance to fail when crafting shards. There may even be a chance to fail when doing unbound crafting.

[Seikojin]

Interesting. What would you say the most effective strategy is for getting to the level required?- I know Grind Everything- But did you do most of your shard making with 100% success recipes, or did you go with a lower level of success/higher exp points?

muffininqurier

I feel the best cost to reward ratio is deconning only lvl 5 abilities, sell the rest. The difference between lvl 4 and lvl 5 for essence is double (16 @ lvl 4 and 33 @ lvl 5). Then I craft only 80% and up shards and usually craft one of each shard that costs the same resources in that 80% range. Once all those shards are made, redo them again for the most exp per resource spent.

If the gain to cost is relatively high, I may try down to 65%. But never below that. Too much chance for failure.

[wonkey]

B Ogre's comments in red, mine in white (multi-quoting doesn't seem to be working).

I see your point, however, people figuring out which quests have high densities of essenses/shards in rewards lists and grinding those endlessly to farm ingredients isn't MY version of fun. Same chicken, different Coop.

I thought drops are random (other than the special ingredients that we can't use yet). Do some quests have higher drop rates than others?
The only comparable thing I can see is quests with lots of chests, but I don't see this as such an issue. If random loot becomes useful, which I think is a good thing, chests will always be good.

Sit click wait, however you can 'Make All' of a certain thing you happen to have a stack of, rather the mind numbing sit-click-wait DDO is now using in front of the decon and shard crafting devices. Add to the hilarity DDO's need to shuffle ingredients in and out of bags, rather than being able to use them right from where they are and you've doubled the time it takes to do the same basic thing. The thing you say you don't like is exactly what DDO is doing more of.

The problem with 'Make all' is that there are lots of things you can make with the same ingredients. I think the diversity is a strength, even though it has trade-offs.
The bags are an issue, and not only in crafting. Definitely something that needs to get fixed, but not really part of the crafting system, per se.

They are in spawn locations, (just like our collectibes are) but spawn rates are slow, so sitting in front of a node would be the height of boredom and not as productive as simply coming across nodes in the natural course of questing.

The problem is those who will endure the height of boredom, and wreck the system. And you know there are lots of them...unless its REALLY slow (and, of course, instanced, so no node-stealing).
But, realistically, if they are in-quest (or the equivalent), even if they respawn, that's ok by me. As long as you don't have to take time out of playing to go farm them.
I think what we have is similar.

I see your point on this completely. There are people who would sit-click-wait all day long to grind out ingredients. No different than the raids we have here, where twinked TR's zerg a dungeon with zero challenge in it for them simply to grind out better gear to make themselves more uber and decrease the challenge even further.

Not quite the same. There is no challenge for them, but at least its a quest. It's not literally "click to win" The flaw is their behaviour, but not the system that gives reward for questing. (At the most, the flaw is in the easiness of the dungeon)

Personally though, I look at the fishing aspect in lotro as a diversion. Ooooh, a Massive Goldfish! That'll make a cool trophy on my wall (hint hint housing!). Ooooh another salmon, nice, GuildieX was looking for those to make Salmon pie.... Tra laa laa, Look at that Bear, he's fishing too... <guild chat, guild chat, guild chat, advice chat, trade channel, guild chat> laa-de-dah....Something to do while chatting, Waiting for pugs, or just relaxing. Will there be people who turn it into a chore? Sure, but it beats DDO's system which is pre-designed to BE a chore.

Fine. But if they had to take into account the people who WILL farm the fishing pond, how long would you have to do your diversion before you could do something interesting with it? Sure, you can get a trophy, but people want the crafting system to make useful stuff.

Well, what you've just described is the whole system. It's broken and bad. Sooo, yeah, I agree, fix everything and it should be fine.

I disagree. In my eyes, it requires a bit of finessing, not an overhaul.

Responses in red. Please note, I'm not deliberately being a jerk, or picking on your reply, just trying to convince ya. That's probably not a good thing to try to do, but maybe you could go play lotro for a few hours and feel it out for yourself. I just think it feels better than DDO's does, that's all.

I don't mind you trying to convince me. I appreciate the discussion. I see no reason I would get insulted at anything you wrote. I'm trying to do the same.
In fact, playing LOTRO for a bit to see their system would probably be educational. But I don't see myself taking the time to do it. So, I'll just have to judge what I see here on its own merits, and by what I'm told of other systems.

[Seikojin]

B Ogre's comments in red, mine in white (multi-quoting doesn't seem to be working).

I see your point, however, people figuring out which quests have high densities of essenses/shards in rewards lists and grinding those endlessly to farm ingredients isn't MY version of fun. Same chicken, different Coop.

I thought drops are random (other than the special ingredients that we can't use yet). Do some quests have higher drop rates than others?
The only comparable thing I can see is quests with lots of chests, but I don't see this as such an issue. If random loot becomes useful, which I think is a good thing, chests will always be good.
From my experience, higher level quests drop almost 10 greater essences per entry. Low level ones could have 1 or 2 greaters. I don't even notice lessers if they do drop. I think the devs said only greaters drop. Lessers come from transmutation or deconning.


Sit click wait, however you can 'Make All' of a certain thing you happen to have a stack of, rather the mind numbing sit-click-wait DDO is now using in front of the decon and shard crafting devices. Add to the hilarity DDO's need to shuffle ingredients in and out of bags, rather than being able to use them right from where they are and you've doubled the time it takes to do the same basic thing. The thing you say you don't like is exactly what DDO is doing more of.

The problem with 'Make all' is that there are lots of things you can make with the same ingredients. I think the diversity is a strength, even though it has trade-offs.
The bags are an issue, and not only in crafting. Definitely something that needs to get fixed, but not really part of the crafting system, per se.
Another big problem with Make all is an accident waiting to happen. The current method just takes time, and if you craft once or twice a week, you won't be having this issue really.


They are in spawn locations, (just like our collectibes are) but spawn rates are slow, so sitting in front of a node would be the height of boredom and not as productive as simply coming across nodes in the natural course of questing.

The problem is those who will endure the height of boredom, and wreck the system. And you know there are lots of them...unless its REALLY slow (and, of course, instanced, so no node-stealing).
But, realistically, if they are in-quest (or the equivalent), even if they respawn, that's ok by me. As long as you don't have to take time out of playing to go farm them.
I think what we have is similar.
I would be one of those mindlessly sitting at the node gathering resources. I have done it for years in other mmos. I like how ddo's crating works.


I see your point on this completely. There are people who would sit-click-wait all day long to grind out ingredients. No different than the raids we have here, where twinked TR's zerg a dungeon with zero challenge in it for them simply to grind out better gear to make themselves more uber and decrease the challenge even further.

Not quite the same. There is no challenge for them, but at least its a quest. It's not literally "click to win" The flaw is their behaviour, but not the system that gives reward for questing. (At the most, the flaw is in the easiness of the dungeon)
I agree on the point that there is a fundamental difference between doing a quest and just crafting.


Personally though, I look at the fishing aspect in lotro as a diversion. Ooooh, a Massive Goldfish! That'll make a cool trophy on my wall (hint hint housing!). Ooooh another salmon, nice, GuildieX was looking for those to make Salmon pie.... Tra laa laa, Look at that Bear, he's fishing too... <guild chat, guild chat, guild chat, advice chat, trade channel, guild chat> laa-de-dah....Something to do while chatting, Waiting for pugs, or just relaxing. Will there be people who turn it into a chore? Sure, but it beats DDO's system which is pre-designed to BE a chore.

Fine. But if they had to take into account the people who WILL farm the fishing pond, how long would you have to do your diversion before you could do something interesting with it? Sure, you can get a trophy, but people want the crafting system to make useful stuff.
I don't see how DDO's system would be a chore. Right now you have BtC everything. Soonish you will have some things BtA. By the time unbound exists, you will have the ability to make and sell. I think of DDos crafting as a convenience, not a chore. I look at SWG's crafting, WoW's crafting, Hz's crafting, UO's crafting as a chore.


Well, what you've just described is the whole system. It's broken and bad. Sooo, yeah, I agree, fix everything and it should be fine.

I disagree. In my eyes, it requires a bit of finessing, not an overhaul.
I agree that ddo's system needs tweaking, but it looks like the devs have that under control.

[BOgre]

Thanks for the great responses.
Right now I'm not loving crafting very much, it feels like a chore, the bags issue is +2 annoying, and I'm looking at months and months before I can make something I can use. I haven't given up hope though, so essences are piling up for now. Bottom line, I'll reserve judgment till it's more fleshed out.

[adamkatt]

Thanks for the great responses.
Right now I'm not loving crafting very much, it feels like a chore, the bags issue is +2 annoying, and I'm looking at months and months before I can make something I can use. I haven't given up hope though, so essences are piling up for now. Bottom line, I'll reserve judgment till it's more fleshed out.

Well i finally made some decent stuff when i hit the mid 20's in the crafting lvls. Still not good as raid loot but then you dont have to wait much for this equip. i still wish we could get rid of forced bound loot altogether...