Please bring back auto-crits on Holds or....

[Yaga_Nub]

...reduce mobs to-hit and stats in Epics.

I think that one intended or unintended side effect of U9's changes, at least on epics, is that damage mitigation, already very important if you didn't want the healers to drink any pots, became even more important because mobs will now live through a mass hold. Of course some people will just say that I'm not in a high dps party but that's not a true statement at all.

Taking away auto-crits increases the time to kill mobs by anywhere from 20% to 30% on average and it means that more people need to beat on one mob to kill it before the spell ends or it breaks free which leaves other mobs at full or mostly full strength when they are free. It's true that the caster could cast mass hold again but that's more mana being used. Plus we have higher saves to deal with so those mass holds/dancing balls/CC of your choice are possibly affecting few critters per cast.

Since mobs are staying alive longer, they are able to dish out a lot more damage since their stats are pumped up so high that no AC attainable in the game helps against even the lowest trash mobs in epic. There is no reason to have trash mobs able to hit a 80 AC or higher on a roll of 2. Yes it may be EPIC but it doesn't mean that every mob is epic.

Because the mobs are staying alive longer, the damage they are doing is much higher and the devs haven't balanced the quests with that thought in mind. Nor did they do the spell point cost/spell point effect balancing with this in mind. For instance, while I understand that Power Word Kill can be very powerful it still has to bypass SR which in Epics can be a problem. Because it's powerful they decided it needed a 5 minute cool down but that might be way to long. If it didn't have to bypass SR then it might be ok but fail and you've wasted SP, you have 5 minutes before you can try that spell again, and, more importantly to my current argument, you still have an angry mob that wants to beat on your party.

There's a few solutions to this issue:

1) Reduce the cost of all healing spells to account for the increased damage a party is taking. (PS - Why did most healing spells' costs go down except for the Heal spell?)

2) Reduce the number of mobs in epics quests. In some cases this could mean the removal of just one or two mobs throughout the whole quest and in some cases it could make a much bigger culling.

3) Reduce the stats (not saves) of all epic mobs. Not a lot but definitely some.

4) Increasing the vorpal threshold from 1000 to 2000 would certainly be a possibility but I'm not sold on the idea.

My question to everyone is this - Have you seen healing costs going up in epics since the U9 update? Maybe this is just a knee-jerk reaction to my limited playing time since U9 went live. I hope it is and that everything is actually fine but it definitely seems like all the changes at once have created something that the devs didn't really think through and may not have even intended.

What do you think?

[Aurora_nyx]

Aren't epics supposed to be really hard? Taking away hit points, mobs, making things easier to kill, etc would make it like a hard run then wouldn't it? And yes, being epic does mean the mobs are epic, again would defeat the purpose of it supposed to be a very difficult quest if on epic the mobs weren't harder to kill

[ORIGINALBAG0]

Yaga, I wish I had answers that came from experience, but I have taken U9 as my cue to start leveling a couple more toons to 20 and grind out some greensteel. In my head, no autocrits+higher saves=tons of resource expenditure. Until stuff gets fully balanced, I have no desire to try my hand at epics. I've been the one chugging dozens of store pots to keep the party up through a rough epic on a number of occasions, and I have to desire to put myself or someone else through that at all. Until other players or the devs figure out the new epic situation, I'm gonna keep leveling every stupid abomination my crazy little head can come up with.

[Indoran]

/not signed

Epic is fine atm... being 20 is not the same as being ready for epic imho. Go get most of the non epic stuff you want for your toon then run epics.

Also start with the easier epics like carnival or VoN 1-2 until you are fine with those move onto real epics...

[Malky]

Either i'm mistaken or you haven't run an epic quest with a competant necromancy-specced arcane yet ;)

[grodon9999]

Though I am a proponent of mob to-hits being lowered so AC is useful in all content I have to say that the new epics are EASIER than they used to be. Sure we can't auto-crit with picks anymore but the mobs have their HP cut in half.

[Yaga_Nub]

Either i'm mistaken or you haven't run an epic quest with a competant necromancy-specced arcane yet ;)

No I definitely have and it's nice to see FoD and Wail actually be useful. It's great that the devs finally allowed more spells to be useful in epic.

[ORIGINALBAG0]

/not signed

Epic is fine atm... being 20 is not the same as being ready for epic imho. Go get most of the non epic stuff you want for your toon then run epics.

Also start with the easier epics like carnival or VoN 1-2 until you are fine with those move onto real epics...

I lol at people telling Yaga he isn't ready for epics. I have run ALOT of epics with this guy (some uglier than others), and he knows what he's doing and is geared to the teeth. I assure you, Yaga is ready, and has been for YEARS. If he says something is whack, he might know what he's talking about.

[Cam_Neely]

Though I am a proponent of mob to-hits being lowered so AC is useful in all content I have to say that the new epics are EASIER than they used to be. Sure we can't auto-crit with picks anymore but the mobs have their HP cut in half.

This, mobs were dropping very fast in the Epics I ran.

Also don't decease the cost of heal. In most MMOs and games in general, the more efficient way to heal is using the weaker heals, which have a better HP to SP ratio. It requires more thought about the urgency of the situation ect then just using heal. I like the Sp changes they made for heals and cures.

[Yaga_Nub]

Though I am a proponent of mob to-hits being lowered so AC is useful in all content I have to say that the new epics are EASIER than they used to be. Sure we can't auto-crit with picks anymore but the mobs have their HP cut in half.

Some of them are definitely easier. The longer ones though are still tough from a resources standpoint.

As for lowering to-hits, I only think that the cannon-fodder mobs should be reduced some. Yes it's epic but when the fodder mobs are hitting at the same ratio as the bosses and for only slightly less damage per hit then there's an issue. Fodder mobs, IMHO, should be more of a time waster than a resource waster. They are there because the devs don't want a 5 min quest whether epic or not but they shouldn't be there so that when you hit a mini-boss or end boss you've went through every shrine and are at 10% resources. That's generalization of course, the devs did see fit to put a lot of shrines near end fights in newer quests but they aren't there for a lot of older quests and it's older quests that are mostly the epic quests.

[voodoogroves]

I think you style was impacted. Saves increased, auto-crit gone and the durations on the spells severely decreased.

We don't need auto-crit. I would welcome an increase in durations though; maybe not back to pre-U9 but somewhere in the middle.

[Hendrik]

I lol at people telling Yaga he isn't ready for epics. I have run ALOT of epics with this guy (some uglier than others), and he knows what he's doing and is geared to the teeth. I assure you, Yaga is ready, and has been for YEARS. If he says something is whack, he might know what he's talking about.

I know of nobody uglier then Yaga.

[Scraap]

What do you think?

Honestly, I think it would be more fun if they simply removed the enchantment length debuff, or only applied it to those spells which tell mobs to stand there and take it.

But then, I enjoy turning them on each other. (Even if that does mean it's suboptimal timewise).

Probably not very likely to happen, but it is one side-effect that keeps getting looked over in discussing the latest spell-pass that was ostensibly intended to add variety to approaches, not just graphics.

[grodon9999]

Some of them are definitely easier. The longer ones though are still tough from a resources standpoint.

As for lowering to-hits, I only think that the cannon-fodder mobs should be reduced some. Yes it's epic but when the fodder mobs are hitting at the same ratio as the bosses and for only slightly less damage per hit then there's an issue. Fodder mobs, IMHO, should be more of a time waster than a resource waster. They are there because the devs don't want a 5 min quest whether epic or not but they shouldn't be there so that when you hit a mini-boss or end boss you've went through every shrine and are at 10% resources. That's generalization of course, the devs did see fit to put a lot of shrines near end fights in newer quests but they aren't there for a lot of older quests and it's older quests that are mostly the epic quests.


I like what they did in Amrath and should copy over that model. Some of the mobs hit harder but have lower to-hit (orthons) and some have better to-hit but don't hit as hard (Bearded Devils). The to-hits we see in Elite Amrath (maybe give them 5 more) would work since I think you still get grazed on a 12.

[Yaga_Nub]

I lol at people telling Yaga he isn't ready for epics. I have run ALOT of epics with this guy (some uglier than others), and he knows what he's doing and is geared to the teeth. I assure you, Yaga is ready, and has been for YEARS. If he says something is whack, he might know what he's talking about.

Thanks for the support.

It's definitely just a feeling right now but I want to throw it out there to see what other people think. Whenever you have a lot of systems changes going on at once there can always be unintended consequences and Turbine has a long history of changing so many things at once that it's hard to pinpoint causes for issues. I'm much more of the opinion that the spell point cost change should have been put in and allowed to go for a few months before any other major changes to things like epic quests were put in or vice versa.

[Hendrik]

My question to everyone is this - Have you seen healing costs going up in epics since the U9 update? Maybe this is just a knee-jerk reaction to my limited playing time since U9 went live. I hope it is and that everything is actually fine but it definitely seems like all the changes at once have created something that the devs didn't really think through and may not have even intended.

What do you think?

TBH Yaga, think it is just knee jerk reaction. Found healing to be much easier in Epic and Cam does have a point, lower healing spells can and are better then just Heal and Mass Heal - least in my experiences.

Now, back to your cage!

[voodoogroves]

Thanks for the support.

It's definitely just a feeling right now but I want to throw it out there to see what other people think. Whenever you have a lot of systems changes going on at once there can always be unintended consequences and Turbine has a long history of changing so many things at once that it's hard to pinpoint causes for issues. I'm much more of the opinion that the spell point cost change should have been put in and allowed to go for a few months before any other major changes to things like epic quests were put in or vice versa.

Yep and these are impacted by multiple changes. I think the auto-crit is the wrong one to unwind.

(1) Save boosts
(2) Enchantment durations reduced / re-save times shortened
(3) Auto-crit


I'd rather see #2 get rolled-back somewhat than the others.

[Phidius]

Aren't epics supposed to be really hard? ...

As far as I understand it, "Epic" is the way they chose to reuse old content to give people something to do with their capped toons. It was intended to be an inexpensive way to allow Turbine to retain their established clientelle while they focused on bringing in the new players.

I really wish they wouldn't have used the word "Epic"... people see that word and think "Oh boy, finally something to show that I'm head-and-shoulders above the rest". Unfortunately, the majority of capped players (myself included) are not in the top 1% of the playerbase (duh). If they truly wish to cater to the top 1%, they are excluding the other 99%.

Which is not to say they aren't trying to exclude us - I just don't think it's a good idea.

[wonkey]

...reduce mobs to-hit and stats in Epics.

I think that one intended or unintended side effect of U9's changes, at least on epics, is that damage mitigation, already very important if you didn't want the healers to drink any pots, became even more important because mobs will now live through a mass hold.

...

What do you think?

I think that if you could avoid just about all trash because nothing ever lives through a mass hold, that means it was broken.
The devs changed it so that various strategies are more equitable. If mass hold still meant insta-win encounter, they didn't accomplish very much.

Sure, it might be harder, especially when using the same strategy. But I think it's MEANT to be.

[Gol]

Epics are easier now IMO. Far less HP means any decently geared melee can actually kill 1-2 trash mobs fast enough to not get themselves killed in the process.

[PNellesen]

This, mobs were dropping very fast in the Epics I ran.

Also don't decease the cost of heal. In most MMOs and games in general, the more efficient way to heal is using the weaker heals, which have a better HP to SP ratio. It requires more thought about the urgency of the situation ect then just using heal. I like the Sp changes they made for heals and cures.

That was my impression as well, at least in Big Top last night (the first Epic I've run since the update) It didn't really seem to take any longer to take down the held mobs without auto-crit than it did with it before the Update.

I would definitely like to hear what healer-types think of the Epic changes. I've hesitated taking my Cleric into any until I could get an idea of whether or not the resource requirements had increased, decreased, or basically stayed the same. From what I saw on my melee, the cleric didn't seem to use any more or less sp or scrolls than he would have previously (and I started paying attention right before Update 9 went live so I would be able to do a rough comparison)

[Missing_Minds]

Though I am a proponent of mob to-hits being lowered so AC is useful in all content I have to say that the new epics are EASIER than they used to be. Sure we can't auto-crit with picks anymore but the mobs have their HP cut in half.

Tell that to the bosses. IF anything they have had their saves, AC, and HP upped. They are even more of a boring pain in the rear now. Or mass panic for the healers depending.

But stat damage weapons... still acting the same just like they did pre U9. I thought that was supposed to change.

[Chai]

Though I am a proponent of mob to-hits being lowered so AC is useful in all content I have to say that the new epics are EASIER than they used to be. Sure we can't auto-crit with picks anymore but the mobs have their HP cut in half.

Yeap exactly. True we do less damage in a mass hold situation, but the mobs have less HP.

[brzytki]

For me epics now are easier and less boring than before U9. With instakills allowed it takes LESS time to complete any epic quest, especially that mobs have half hp than before.

I ran Epic OOB shortly after U9 went live. With healer, caster (not necro), bard (spellsinger), rogue (me) and 2 monks we completed in 30 min w/o using all shrines, any pots or holding a single mob. Everything just died so fast. We just beat them down barely using any CC.

[Hambo]

/not signed.

That 20-30% increase in completion time is bonus breather time for Turbine to develop more content to appease those who have to "Speed Racer" through existing content and complain when there's nothing new to do.

If so many people didn't have the "One and Done" attitude it wouldn't be so bad.

Before you go off on me about the above statement, please realize that I have been with this game since late 2005 and have not taken extended breaks like most others have (except for a month of job training with no decent computer access). I've run all the old content hundreds if not thousands of times... I just do it solo now :D

[grodon9999]

Tell that to the bosses. IF anything they have had their saves, AC, and HP upped. They are even more of a boring pain in the rear now. Or mass panic for the healers depending.

I haven't noticed this. In fact I'm going to go on record saying the end-fight of the new content on elite is harder than most of the end fights in epics.

[QUOTE=Missing_Minds;3770855]
But stat damage weapons... still acting the same just like they did pre U9. I thought that was supposed to change.

I have a rapier spec'd toon and I'm half tempted at this point to use her +5/+3 Icy-burst WoP rapiers to charge power cells. These used to be amazing in non-epics and now are pretty much **** (don't get me started on the uselessness of the WoP bow . . .) in all content. Allowing them to work in epics might make them somewhat non-garbage but as of right now they're getting parked in the bank.

[GoldyGopher]

/not signed

The other night I ran a couple of epic quests with two barbarians, a wizard (I think they were supposed to be a Pale Master), a Bard, and one piker. It was the Piker's LFM by the way.

If you were to speak to both Barbarians, we will call one Bob and the other Dave, both of which would have had polar opposite opinions of post U9 Epic. As the Healer I get to sit back and watch what was going on around me. It's not the Barbarians didn't need a few heals but no where near what a few others I have run with need.

Both Barbarians were THF specced and claimed to be Max Str builds, I have run with them in the past and I always gave a slight edge in DPS to Bob, a warforged, over Dave, a dwarf. Since I don't play a high level Barbarian I don't know what changed for those two but there is little question that Bob now does 50% to 66% more DPS than Dave. If Bob took 8 swings to drop a mob Dave took at least 12. The differance as far as we can tell was 2 points of Strength in the two builds and Warforged vs. Dwarf. To me the difference is then Warforged Power Attack. I am not sure if that is 1 point or 4 points more damage per swing plus 1 point for strength (including Dwarf Axe Damage), but that little bit of dfference sure magnified itself in the Epic. To me there has to be something different involved, but IDK for sure.

So Dave is of the opinion U9 sucks and Bob is like hey this isn't to bad.

[Yaga_Nub]

/not signed

...

GG this isn't really a signed or not signed thing as much as it is a what's your opinion and what are you seeing type of thing. The title is purposely misleading. :)

[Nick_RC]

What quests specifically are giving you probs B? Epic chains?

[Yaga_Nub]

What quests specifically are giving you probs B? Epic chains?

Yeah definitely seeing more in the longer quests. Epic should cost some more resources but it's getting ridiculous in Chains.

I will say that it seems like epic Queen is much easier although the bunch together and heal through stuff tactic is kinda bunk.

[Nick_RC]

Yeah definitely seeing more in the longer quests. Epic should cost some more resources but it's getting ridiculous in Chains.

I will say that it seems like epic Queen is much easier although the bunch together and heal through stuff tactic is kinda bunk.

Yeah Chains is the only one that I can think of that should give you any problems with the changes. Any others? Maybe ev3 with drow SR being what it is. Havnt run that one since the change tho. Give me specifics or its all noise!!!

Yeah I hate the ball method too. So inelegant and boring.

[GoldyGopher]

GG this isn't really a signed or not signed thing as much as it is a what's your opinion and what are you seeing type of thing. The title is purposely misleading. :)

If you talk to the two Barbarians that I ran with one of them would whole heartedly agree with you the other would ask what the heck are you talking about.

As a cleric who sat back and watched there is something about Bob's build that makes this so much easier than Dave's build. To me running with Three Bob's, an Arcane and maybe a Bard would make any epic almost to easy as it stands today and so I have to say I don't agree with bring back auto crits.

On the other hand I really wish I knew what the difference was between the two build so I could help others out there is obviousily something that My DDO doesn't tell me and one or the other is lying about. But that's a different story.

Does that make Sense?

[Yaga_Nub]

Yeah Chains is the only one that I can think of that should give you any problems with the changes. Any others? Maybe ev3 with drow SR being what it is. Havnt run that one since the change tho. Give me specifics or its all noise!!!

Yeah I hate the ball method too. So inelegant and boring.

That why it's just a feeling right now Nick. The problem is that the shorter quests are so short or have plenty of shrines so the drain on resources/increased need for healing isn't as compounded. It's there but we fly through things so fast that an extra 200 or 300 sp for more healing isn't even noticed. Which also should make most people say, "What does it matter then?" Well it matters to me because if there is even a small issue now and it's not addressed then the next update or the one after that, etc. could just start compounding the issues. Every quest (except the latest ones I would assume) were created and balanced for a certain set of rules that no longer completely apply so I'm just being cautious right now. In two weeks I say it was all hooey but for now I want to get others ideas about how epics are looking and what their experiences are in them.

[Alternative]

Well, shortly after u9 we ran an epic dq1 without a healer or anyone with mass hold, just sorc with webs as only means of CC, and melee oriented bard. Mobs were dying so fast it wasn't funny, the queen got encased, no shards dropped (again). And no, it wasn't a group made of multiple TRed incredibles :)

[Rdonaccount]

Because the mobs are staying alive longer, the damage they are doing is much higher and the devs haven't balanced the quests with that thought in mind.

Mass Hold only became a viable strategy after u5 (last june) introduced the minion debuff, lower epic trash saves by 10. In essense, devs specifically designed the quests with the intention of mobs doing that much damage. If you are having trouble keeping everyone alive, it might be time to start revisiting some of the old staples of epics, such as using a caster to grab aggro in a safe spot before the melees jump in.

[mute_mayhem]

From a healer standpoint, I would say resource usage has gone way up, at least for my two favored souls. Before update 9, it was not uncommon for my human fvs to finish epics with 75%+ of his spell points remaining. Now, I have less than 10% left in a typical epic. The reason for it is I'm able to add much more to the party in terms of divine punishment, implosion, and the occasional destruction.

Although when I say resources, I just mean spell points...I haven't had to use any pots in any of the epics I've done since U9 launched.

I much prefer this method of doing epics to the rather boring mass hold, woo woo stick beat down, rinse and repeat of previous updates.