36 Point TWF Khopesh TR Paladin

[Dace]

I am nearing the time when I'm going to be TRing my current fighter character and I've got my heart set on playing a Paladin. Could you just take a quick look over this and see if there are any obvious faults other than:

* No UMD (I don't care)
* No power attack (to hit on this character wont be anywhere near as high as on my fighter last life, so I'd rather take the +4 fighter past life feat +2 passive and use the Paladin to hit/damage bonuses to ramp it up)

As its my first Paladin I'm going to keep it pure class for the experience. As he's going to be KoTC at the endgame, does my enhancement choice look ok?

Any other feedback (good or bad) is welcome. I'd rather get anything obvious over and done with before I commit to it. Cheers guys.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Paladin
Level 20 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(20 Paladin)
Hit Points: 382
Spell Points: 300
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 25
Reflex: 16
Will: 12

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 16 18 18
Dexterity 15 17 17
Constitution 18 20 22
Intelligence 8 8 8
Wisdom 6 8 8
Charisma 13 20 22

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 3
Bluff 1 6
Concentration 4 6
Diplomacy 1 6
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 1 6
Heal -2 -1
Hide 2 3
Intimidate 5 35
Jump 3 4
Listen -2 -1
Move Silently 2 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 -1
Spot -2 -1
Swim 3 4
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Student of the Sword


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Silver Flame Exorcism
Enhancement: Follower of the Silver Flame
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate IV
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Light I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might IV
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning II
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I

[Khellendros13]

I would drop con to 16 and put cha 15 int 10 and take UMD for sure. Use a +2 int tome at level 7 fore more skills.
This also gets you DMIII by putting 1 level up point into cha.

UMD for fireshield scrolls, Blur wands, shield wands etc is wonderful.

[elujin]

cha is on the low side if you want to use dm's (natural 20 cha for the highst tier) witch are a great source of dmg especialy on a twf pally

wf isn't a great pick for a twf pally but mebey you have some docents from past life

and i would drop exstend or khopeshes for power attack paladins can use buffs to raise to hit a bit

i would say khopeshes cous on a pally rapiers or scimitars can do verry well but again you prob have a bunch of khopeshes from your past life

[Lurzifer]

Well... dont know where to start but:

Warforged - Paladin : not the best choice. Human would be best.
Warforged - No Powerattack: On a race improving PA not taking it, is just stupid.
Warforged - TWF: Well TWF is very nice for Pallys especially pure KotC, still u can boost THF.

My Suggestion is, go Human skill UMD ( u will want healscrolls/fireshield/GH/raise dead etc)

start with 16 cha 15 dex 16 str and rest in con. All lvls in Str. Get powerattack with human bonus feat.

Pallys have good tohit, dont worry about that.

with 18 cha after +2 tome u can get divine might III for +6 sacred dmg.
another bonus as human, as paladin u lack good action boosts, get human versatility IV for dmg +5 or +5 tohit if really needed on some encounters.


Just my Suggestion. WF pally works as well, but not if u dont take PA and dump STR.

[rodallec]

less con more pally stuff
less suck more PA

[elujin]

less con more pally stuff
less suck more PA

its for detailed constructive advice like this people come to the forums :)

[Dace]

lol

Thank you for the feedback so far guys.

* What duration do I get on Zeal without extend spell? I *may* take power attack instead if its a worthwhile duration without extend spell.

Human is definately worth considering, but it seems too cookie-cutter to me. I am really not interested in UMD on this life, most of the items I've crafted/looted will be usable. The extra feat *could* be useful, but I'm not too fussed - I'm quite keen on playing with Warforged immunities.

With regards to the 'to hit'/BAB issue I have I'm generally running at 42ish to hit bonus on my current life with power attack on. On Epic I miss more than I'd like against 'some' mobs unless I take power attack off.

With this build I'm looking at:

20 base BAB
5 weapon
+2/-2 Fighter Past Life/TWF
+2 Spectrals
+3 for any generic +6 Strength item
+4 18 Strength

+4 Active Fighter Past Life Clickie (3 x 1m)
+4 Situational vs Evil Outsiders KoTC 3
+18 Exalted Smite including a generic +6 Charisma item

So we're looking at 34 AB without power attack on generally, which really doesnt seem that good. The only time that the AB is looking any good is with Exalted Smite in action.

__________________________________________

Reservations about the AB aside, I'm tending towards dropping the Constitution a little and raising Intelligence/Charisma as advised. Still not convinced on UMD though, what are the 'goal' scores to use some of the decent self-buffing wands?

[blitzschlag]

as a kotc depending on your gathered tomes i'd go

16
14 (+3 dex needed obviously)
14
8 (+2 int for more skillpoints)
6
16 (+4 cha for dmIV)

dm3 is a must if your shooting for dps. dmIV is a treat.

you could go fro 13 con and 9 int if you're up for more skillpoints and don't mind the "loss" of some hp. you don't have points for more than warforged constitution I anyway if you're going all out dps.

[Cold_Stele]

Unless you're going to TR again your ultimate long term goal as a TWF Khop pure Pally are eChaosblades slotted with silver.

You're going to need UMD for those though...

[Puppetian]

Alrighty, been a while since I did this pally business, but here's some pointers:

- With 13 base cha you won't qualify for anything higher than Divine Might I. This is a massive loss, since those enhancements are arguably the biggest boosts to paladin dps.

- WF ain't the best choice for Pally, or TWF pally in particular. Just like the other posters I'd recommend going human, unless you've got really good gear reasons to stay WF - like the red dragonscale docent. There are various reasons for that:
1) As a TWF pally you will be really strapped stat-wise, thus your hp will suffer - human healing amp is definitely helpful there.
2) Pallies are also really strapped feat-wise, getting an extra as a human is something really worth considering.
3) Humans don't get penalties to WIS or CHA. While WIS can be dumpstatted, CHA most certainly cannot.
4) Paladins - like monks - get quite a few immunities, while others can be aquired by means of paladin spells - deathward/poison. The only real advantage of going WF would be fighting beholders, and that - imo - isn't a reason enough.

- I really wouldn't worry about hit - most twf builds need to turn off PA in epics, but it can safely remain on in content featuring less ridiculous AC.

- You're missing IC:Slash - this is a big oversight if you're going to be using any other weapon than minII.

- Extend isn't critical, but you should bear in mind that you won't be able to cast anything while madstoned, thus, if you're regularly using madstone boots you definately should work to fit in extend.

- You're missing Divine Sacrifice - another critical enhancement line.

I could go on, but instead I'm just going to refer you to Junts' guide to creating paladins (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=21854). The guide contains everything you need to know about paladin business, along with sample builds.

[elujin]

divine favor adds +3 ab and +3 dmg

and on wf the saves a paladin gets make the wf immuneties less relevant
edite: even vs a beholder hunter of the dead would be immune vs al neg energy drains and its just a enchantment reset away (and hotd is always a good option while leveling)

though wf is always a strong race and if you like it go for it :)

i am planning to tr into a pally my self i will be a drow with rapiers it will be a good deal squicher though

[Dace]

- With 13 base cha you won't qualify for anything higher than Divine Might I. This is a massive loss, since those enhancements are arguably the biggest boosts to paladin dps.


13 starting, +2 tome, +5 level ups.



- WF ain't the best choice for Pally, or TWF pally in particular. Just like the other posters I'd recommend going human, unless you've got really good gear reasons to stay WF - like the red dragonscale docent. There are various reasons for that:
1) As a TWF pally you will be really strapped stat-wise, thus your hp will suffer - human healing amp is definitely helpful there.
2) Pallies are also really strapped feat-wise, getting an extra as a human is something really worth considering.
3) Humans don't get penalties to WIS or CHA. While WIS can be dumpstatted, CHA most certainly cannot.
4) Paladins - like monks - get quite a few immunities, while others can be aquired by means of paladin spells - deathward/poison. The only real advantage of going WF would be fighting beholders, and that - imo - isn't a reason enough.


It's really looking like a human character would be better then ^ I was just hoping to try something different, but I don't feel like making something sub-par just to make the point.



- You're missing IC:Slash - this is a big oversight if you're going to be using any other weapon than minII.


I'll be using Min 2's this life.



- Extend isn't critical, but you should bear in mind that you won't be able to cast anything while madstoned, thus, if you're regularly using madstone boots you definately should work to fit in extend.


Sigh, another win for the bonus human feat.



- You're missing Divine Sacrifice - another critical enhancement line.


Thanks for the spot. I'll have a bit of play with my points.

Also, RE: Twin Epic Chaosblades... yup that will be a long term goal. Not looking at that for a few lives yet though.

Thanks all for the feedback so far.

[Puppetian]

13 starting, +2 tome, +5 level ups.

Ah, missed that, however, I'm not entirely sure if that's the right way to go, especially if you're worried about hit. While DMIV will add a lot of damage, putting those points into STR and picking up PA will most likely be more profitable.


I was just hoping to try something different, but I don't feel like making something sub-par just to make the point.

I'd say a WF would make a good THF hate tank, especially if you get the ToD KotC set - the untyped damage from the set and the capstone applies to glancing blows, making tanking stuff like eChrono a breeze. That being said, a horc would probably work better, but, personally, I'm not a fan.

Basically, as always, it's your character, so play it any way you want - however, since it's going to require a fair bit of time to get him capped and what not, I'd try to get him into a tip-top shape. Playing for flavour is great, but perhaps not on a TR build.

[blitzschlag]

13 starting, +2 tome, +5 level ups.



missed that bit...

how are you going to hit epic mobs now reliably then when not smiting? loosing roughly 3 to hit (because of missing strength) and the supposed increase in mob ac in epics by 3-5 will increase your chance to miss to (depending on gear) up to 40% or more. thats not really acceptable...

[Carpone]

* No power attack (to hit on this character wont be anywhere near as high as on my fighter last life, so I'd rather take the +4 fighter past life feat +2 passive and use the Paladin to hit/damage bonuses to ramp it up)
Not taking Power Attack on a melee character is a huge mistake. The game mechanics do not support your rational.

[Dace]

As its my first Paladin I'm going to keep it pure class for the experience.

OK then. Ignore that ^ Mainly I wanted KoTC 3 on this bad boy, so I've amended the build.

Based on your feedback I've worked out this human Monk/Paladin variant that has all of the feats that I wanted, plus all of the ones that you recommended (notably power attack). This variant will have the bonus human skill points so I can get a usable UMD score.

Summary character outline is below. Essentially, I'm using the 2 monk levels to get 2 extra feats plus Evasion - which is better to my way of thinking than fighter or rogue hybrid.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(18 Paladin \ 2 Monk)
Hit Points: 298
Spell Points: 205
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 23
Reflex: 18
Will: 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 21
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 15 17
Intelligence 8 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7


Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Student of the Sword


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell



Provided feat selection/order looks correct (works in the planner anyway) what would you recommend for my 18 level feat? I'm thinking improved critical (when I'm not using min II), quick draw (any merit on Paladin builds) or Intimidate skill focus.

So what do you think is best for my L18 feat?
:D
Level 18 (Paladin)

<insert sexy feat here>

Also... what UMD score am I requiring for some of the decent/semi decent self-buff wands?

[Dace]

This is the final proposed build.

Speak now or forever hold your peace.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(18 Paladin \ 2 Monk)
Hit Points: 338
Spell Points: 245
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 24
Reflex: 18
Will: 14

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 16 21 22
Dexterity 15 17 17
Constitution 15 17 18
Intelligence 8 10 10
Wisdom 8 8 8
Charisma 16 20 20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 6 13 13
Bluff 3 5 5
Concentration 2 6 12
Diplomacy 3 5 5
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle 3 5 5
Heal -1 -1 -1
Hide 2 3 3
Intimidate 5 28 38
Jump 3 6 6
Listen -1 -1 -1
Move Silently 2 3 3
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair -1 0 0
Search -1 0 0
Spot -1 -1 -1
Swim 3 6 6
Tumble 6 8 8
Use Magic Device 5 16 16

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Student of the Sword


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Sentinel


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Way of the Tenacious Badger I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate IV
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III




Popped in the Sentinel Dragonmark as a temporary L18 Feat because its +3 intim and has a shield of faith clicky, which makes it slightly better than skill focus: intimidation.

Listened to what you said, is this better?

[Premier]

Hi Dace,

I have, TR'ed from a Ranger, an 18/2 Pally/Monk Human TWF Khopesh build similar to what you have. The survivability is fantastic! Here are the feats I took (in no particular order):

Khopesh
TWF (x3)
Toughness
OTWF
PA
IC: Slash
Extend
Maximize

Similar stats as you except I had a 14 DEX to start because I had a banked +3 Dex Tome before TR'ing. I had SF:UMD instead of OTWF but once I started running Amrath and Epics I needed OTWF. I haven't turned off PA in a while.

A majority of my survivability comes from Healing Amp (Human II, can't fit in III tier) and Self Heals through spells and heal scrolls. I can't fit in Cure Serious Wounds spell but a cure moderate hits for 100+. One would be hard-pressed to convince me to drop Extend and/or Maximize. I play as a KotC and mainly dps while another tanks. When I do tank, I click Divine Righteousness for 1 minute of 100% extra hate generation. Good luck pulling away aggro after I click that and get a few Exalted IV smites off.

I wear DT Armor and use multiple guards (Air Guard (3x Air Shroud goggles), Freezing Ice/ Magma Surge on DT, and soon to have Radiance Guard with Healing Lore on Shroud Bracers). AC is low but who cares, I use Displacement scrolls and clickies all the time. Fire Shield Scrolls are used all the time too. And for mobs that cast Magic Missle (i.e. Amrath Casters) I use a wand of Shield (5th or 10th lvl).

If you roll the build you currently have posted you won't be disappointed. It's much easier nowadays to swap out feats/stats if you feel you need a change. Enjoy!

-Premier