It seems that PVP isn't that prevalent in DDO

[Shanadeus]

Which is a shame, would be neat if the devs implemented new PvP modes and maps as well as implemented some sort of PVP-related point system (that only give PVP-relevant rewards).

And all that without touching PVE!

[Musouka]

Sure, that would be nice. After they're done fixing everything that is still buggy, and done adding any extra quests/classes/races or content for the game all together. After all of that, then they might have time to concentrate a little on PvP.

[toughguyjoe]

It would be pretty sweet. Of course the balance issues that are prevalent in PVP would have to be fixed, along with some abilities being changed..so yeah.

NO.

[Shanadeus]

Don't they already do that though?
Spells&abilities just work differently when in PVP-arenas (or not at all) or when cast at other players.
If they stick to that then PVP-balancing won't affect PVE.

[Angelus_dead]

Which is a shame, would be neat if the devs implemented new PvP modes and maps as well as implemented some sort of PVP-related point system (that only give PVP-relevant rewards).

And all that without touching PVE!
It would be neat in some ways, but it would also consume roughly triple the game design effort they already put in. Building a good complex PVP game is not easy; it is hard.

If you happen to think that DDO's existing game mechanics could be fun in PVP, I encourage you to get some players together and give it a test run.

[ProdigalGuru]

How many times, in Pen and Paper Dungeons and Dragons did you PvP?

Any answer greater than zero, and I call shenanigans.

DnD is just not geared for PvP, so neither is DDO.


Also, we have enough "balancing" issues already, the last thing we need is "PvP balance" issues.

PvP is borderline griefing for the winner anyways.

You have to be either sadistic or masochistic to enjoy it in the first place.

[Falco_Easts]

And all that without touching PVE!
That is the problem. While working on that, they would not be working on DDO.

[heyytoi]

PvP is Awesome.

[wax_on_wax_off]

How many times, in Pen and Paper Dungeons and Dragons did you PvP?

Any answer greater than zero, and I call shenanigans.

DnD is just not geared for PvP, so neither is DDO.


Also, we have enough "balancing" issues already, the last thing we need is "PvP balance" issues.

PvP is borderline griefing for the winner anyways.

You have to be either sadistic or masochistic to enjoy it in the first place.

You must have had pretty boring PnP then.

What happens when the paladin catches the rogue stealing? What happens when the paladin catching anyone doing anything he doesn't like for that matter? Less so in 3rd ed but back in the day paladins were pretty prickly when it came to questing with those who had questionable morals and it could certainly lead to circumstances that might lead to harsh words if not outright combat.

Same is true for many characters. If you role play properly there will always be disagreements and the threat of PvP is an important part of those disagreements (usually avoided though based on the surety that one party would be victorious).

I certainly agree that DDO isn't balanced for the PvP that we see in other MMOs. Simply put, individual classes aren't balanced against eachother and the classes are designed to succeed in a PvE environment. However, that still provides opportunity if there was interest in it. Specifically, bring out a map reminiscent of DotA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_the_Ancients). The objective is very compatible with DDO; kill the mobs, kill the portal/base where the mobs come from while protecting a friendly base and help the mobs there. The fact that there are other players trying to help the opposing mobs and kill the mobs that are friendly to you just makes it exciting. Very little balancing would be required. Simply, fix stealth so that enemy players can't see you is the only global fix that would be necessary. Then, within the specific map, make buildings immune to piercing damage and any type of magic and you're done.

[Azonalanthious]

Yeah, I've certainly seen pen and paper PVP. In point of fact, we had one long running campaign with two parties (same dm, played by different players though), one "good" and one "evil" working at cross purposes. We weren't fighting each other directly most sessions, but it certainly did happen on occassion. Also had a campaign as an evil party where the "leader" was challenged to ritual combat by other party members who wanted to take control of the party on multiple occasions.

That being said, while I have no objections to PVP in ddo per say, I do object to the devs taking time away from the PVE that most of us enjoy/focus on to try and build a larger PVP portion into a game it is not really designed for or focused on PVP in any meaningful way.

[Quarterling]

How many times, in Pen and Paper Dungeons and Dragons did you PvP?

Any answer greater than zero, and I call shenanigans.

DnD is just not geared for PvP, so neither is DDO.

I GM'ed a campaign in which the players had to fetch a king's prized jewel cup. As (un)luck to have it, one of the players died a bit earlier than I expected due to bad rolls and the cup was relocated by the villains. I was not sure where the cup should end up, so I made a quick random table and the dice told me that the jeweled cup was brought by the thieves into a small village on the outskirts of town.

That village was one controlled by a noble fighter who loved duels. The thieves were imprisoned by an NPC paladin who used detect evil on them, and the jeweled cup was then put up as the prize for whoever won the next tournament. Since it's a noble town, the fights are non-lethal.

Long story short, three of the players entered the tournament, and two of them made it to the final round. Of course, it would not matter who would win as either would receive the cup to complete the campaign, but it was fun watching some PvP there for a bit.

[MsEricka]

Don't care, didn't read.

DDO is not a PvP game, never has been, never will be. The only dev time spent in PvP should be removing it. People need to stop suggesting otherwise.

[uthanak69]

Which is a shame, would be neat if the devs implemented new PvP modes and maps as well as implemented some sort of PVP-related point system (that only give PVP-relevant rewards).



I disagree, I think PVP sucks. I'm glad it's not too good in DDO. Prevents it from becoming the center of the game.

[protokon]

I disagree, I think PVP sucks. I'm glad it's not too good in DDO. Prevents it from becoming the center of the game.

have to disagree with ya.

After playing this game for 5 years running now, after making half a dozen toons fully epiced out, after not seeing a new raid in over 6 months...I'm getting bored.

and judging by the fall in how many people in my guild roster sign on a daily basis, i'm not the only one.

I certainly agree that PVP should not be the center of attention in this game. but it is truly the biggest thing lacking that is available in most other MMOs at the moment. I'm not saying that we should change it so that DDO is like everyone else, but the cheesy way it is implemented now with a basic pit and spells not balanced versus other players (theres no reason why certain spells can't have different rulesets vs. players than PvE).

I would bet something to do other than the same old constant grind / daily epics / same old raids would stirr up quite a bit more in-game activity.

Even if that something to do was not necessarily PvP itself, mini-games of some kind that add some kind of reward value and are fun to do in general. The capture the flag mechanic at the moment could be implemented in a slightly better fashion. A new 'challenge' quest that divides parties into two sides and are rewarded for winning against the other team or something like that would be cool.

maybe it's just the console gamer in me, since it's been years that i've touched a first person shooter, but PvP certainly has potential to better the game - even if it's not for every single player.

edit: and TRing endlessly is not my idea of fun either. I've been doing that with my current toon and am getting bored of the extreme grind myself.

[Shanadeus]

You must have had pretty boring PnP then.

What happens when the paladin catches the rogue stealing? What happens when the paladin catching anyone doing anything he doesn't like for that matter? Less so in 3rd ed but back in the day paladins were pretty prickly when it came to questing with those who had questionable morals and it could certainly lead to circumstances that might lead to harsh words if not outright combat.

Same is true for many characters. If you role play properly there will always be disagreements and the threat of PvP is an important part of those disagreements (usually avoided though based on the surety that one party would be victorious).

I certainly agree that DDO isn't balanced for the PvP that we see in other MMOs. Simply put, individual classes aren't balanced against eachother and the classes are designed to succeed in a PvE environment. However, that still provides opportunity if there was interest in it. Specifically, bring out a map reminiscent of DotA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_the_Ancients). The objective is very compatible with DDO; kill the mobs, kill the portal/base where the mobs come from while protecting a friendly base and help the mobs there. The fact that there are other players trying to help the opposing mobs and kill the mobs that are friendly to you just makes it exciting. Very little balancing would be required. Simply, fix stealth so that enemy players can't see you is the only global fix that would be necessary. Then, within the specific map, make buildings immune to piercing damage and any type of magic and you're done.
That sounds pretty fun.
And they already have all the necessary models and whatnot in the game.

DOTA in 3D in DDO sounds very exciting.

[Cyr]

How many times, in Pen and Paper Dungeons and Dragons did you PvP?

Any answer greater than zero, and I call shenanigans.


And yet another person who seeks to speak for all pnp experiences...

Then call shenanigans on me. I've had plenty of campaings (as a player and as a DM) where players have fought each other...heck it's not even that uncommon due to mind influencing spells and abilities.

[somenewnoob]

And yet another person who seeks to speak for all pnp experiences...

Then call shenanigans on me. I've had plenty of campaings (as a player and as a DM) where players have fought each other...heck it's not even that uncommon due to mind influencing spells and abilities.

Yep, as DM I used to have players fight each other from time to time too. But then again I was a sort of an evil DM and liked to try to push them to betray each other from time to time! lol

[Drakos]

How many times, in Pen and Paper Dungeons and Dragons did you PvP?

Any answer greater than zero, and I call shenanigans.

DnD is just not geared for PvP, so neither is DDO.
Well, there are the times when a character gets Dominated or mind controled. Also, there are the occasional misunderstandings. But it has never been the main focus of the game.

I don't really think any dev time should be put towards PvP at all.

[Uska]

No rewards for pvp and no dev time until everything else is done

[SynalonEtuul]

Don't care, didn't read.

DDO is not a PvP game, never has been, never will be. The only dev time spent in PvP should be removing it. People need to stop suggesting otherwise.

"Who DARES enjoy a different aspect of the game to me?!?!?!"

[ehcsztein]

I am hoping that the upcoming "Challenge System" (ala Crystal Cove) implementation includes some group PvP challenges. Seems like a pretty open door to allow such things without the need to directly change the PvE game.

Group A vs Group B trying to achieve something in a short amount of time while defending against each other.

For example each group has to deal damage against certain "pillars" or some such and the group that deals the most damage "wins" the round. Sort of like Kill the Flag instead of capture the flag. Throw in some random MOBs that both groups would have to fight against to keep things interesting.

Then again I might be the only one who thought about PvP the minute I first stepped into Crystal Cove...(competing for crystals / protecting kobolds / etc) seemed like an obvious prototype to me. *shrug*

[Khanyth]

Which is a shame, would be neat if the devs implemented new PvP modes and maps as well as implemented some sort of PVP-related point system (that only give PVP-relevant rewards).

And all that without touching PVE!


Here's what Turbine needs to do to PvP:

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/3885599/2/istockphoto_3885599-pull-the-plug.jpg

[Hafeal]

I have rarely pvp'd and then only for fun with friends. My twitch skills and old age prevent me from catching up to the whipper-snappers.

That being said, I am not of the 'don't spend a minute of time or dime on it" crowd. Who knows, maybe in fixing it they can fix other things with the game. I also realize that players play and enjoy many different aspects of the game. I fully trust the devs have a handle on the priorities - even if players do not always agree - as they have the data on the players.

I am curious to know how the U9 spell pass will affect pvp play.

[toughguyjoe]

"Who DARES enjoy a different aspect of the game to me?!?!?!"

To say that PVp is a full fledged "Aspect of the Game" sounds to me like saying that the people who play hide and seek in the market place are also using a full fledged "Aspect of the Game"

I'll make the concession that PVP is a good time waster, but do we really need to focus development on something that is largely used as just that?

[ehcsztein]

How many times, in Pen and Paper Dungeons and Dragons did you PvP?

Any answer greater than zero, and I call shenanigans.



Well call shenanigans on me as well. There were many times that several friends from my PnP group would simply sit around and roll characters with the sole purpose of fighting against each other Gladiator style. Especially when we were exploring Darksun back in the day. It is actually quite fun.

Of course I played a lot of Cyberpunk 2020 as well and was pretty comfortable with character death LOL.

It also allowed us to experiment with various rules/tactics and ultimately improved the flow of combat in our actual Campaigns. When 3.0 first came out we did similar just to grow comfortable with the mechanics just before diving into a full campaign.

This doesn't even touch on the actual in campaign PvP that would pop up from time to time. I was lucky enough to play with a fairly creative and open minded group of friends that allowed storyline and character development to go in some fairly interesting directions at times.

[EddieB_TBC]

And all that without touching PVE!
The manner in which it touches PvE would be if a dev spent more than half a second contemplating doing anything about PvP short of turning it off.

[Gkar]

The manner in which it touches PvE would be if a dev spent more than half a second contemplating doing anything about PvP short of turning it off.

Exactly. Time on PvP is time not spent fixing and improving the core game. And it needs work as we all know.

The Crafting "beta" needs to be revamped
Epic relaunch
Huge lack of 16+ content
Still need more spells/feats
The major gameplay changes in U9 will almost certainly need tweaking
Still a lot of classes with incomplete or no PrE
All the stuff promissed in the State of the Game
The long promissed review of ranged
The long promissed updating of favor rewards to make them matter again
6 billion bugs
etc, etc....

[Seikojin]

The challenge system will allow for pvp like awesomeness. Or it could.

[PwnHammer40K]

Every MMO needs something to do between quests.

DDO has next to nothing.

[likuei]

1. Finish the classes.
2. Finish the races.
3. Finish the PrEs.
4. Reduce the lag.
5. Reduce the number of bugs.
6. Force the search screen to pop up whenever anyone types in PvP.

Look, DDO was created as a team based PvE game. PvP was thrown in
because people wanted a time waster ... they got it. Done.

The amount of work you have put into arguing your point, you could
have found a game that gives you PvP. End of statement.

[ProdigalGuru]

To all that claim to have PvP'ed often in PnP:

PvP is lazy Game Mastering, and a great way to cause strife in a decent RP group.

My groups were far from boring, as myself or whoever else was DM'ing created intricate maps, encounters, and plot lines to entertain the players.

If your DM was allowing your Paladin a duel to the death with your Rogue over a stealing/dishonesty issue, then they were doing it wrong. Lawful Good characters, by their very nature, would seek a peaceful solution. If duels are not to the death, it implies a fistfight, and I cannot think of anything more boring than that. Even if the non-good character was the aggressor, it should stand to reason that the party as a whole would break up the conflict before it erupted into PvP.

The real key was that there was no point to PvP anyways, because Arcanes and Divines were much more capable of dealing instant death (if you were lucky enough to merely get killed and not turned into a frog or something).

Then there was the IRL logistical nightmare of having the opposing players in separate rooms, so that they could each announce actions without tipping off the other side as to their plans.

PvP in DnD was a nightmare to do properly, had no rewards, and caused group dynamics issues. Only a bad GM would allow it to happen more than once in an entire campaign.

[bigolbear]

sure. i especialy like the bit about not touching pve.

However this should eb a pack - bougth with turbine points.

[hityawithastick]

[opening post making legit pvp suggestion]

[post flaming pvp]
[post suggesting removing pvp]
[post listing other incomplete parts of the game]
[post flaming pvp]
[Actual reaction to OP]
[post suggesting removing pvp]
[post suggesting removing pvp via amusing picture]
[post flaming pvp]
[post in support of pvp]
[post flaming pvp flamers]
[troll]
[post flaming everyone]
[Actual reaction to OP]
[Chuck Norris reference]
[Wow Sucks reference]
[post flaming pvp]
[amusing picture]

Aaaaand /cut people, that's a thread. :D

[BOgre]

There are alot of great reasons to make PvP a bigger part of the game, revenue being the biggest, as it's a feature most young gamers look for in their MMOs. Another is that class based team PvP IS, or CAN be very strategically deep. By coming up with some PvP ONLY enhancement lines, spell schools, weapon prefixes/suffixes, Turbine could theoretically add limitless replayability to the game without adding actual content. It would fit very nicely with crafting as well, in that one could grind quests for mats in order to make specialized pvp weaponry/armor/scrolls/etc. For example, if Spell cost was zero in PvP and used a turn-based pip system, then one could have, say +1 Gladiator's Armor of Weakness: where the Gladi effect causes the character's blue bar to be zero and the Weakness effect has a clickie +25% miss chance to opponent, 3 minutes duration - 5uses/duel. That piece of gear would be useless outside of duels, but would be something cool to craft for PvP.
This might give end gamers more goals to shoot for as well, again, especially during those long waits between new high level quest packs, when you've already got the best gear, crafting is pointless, etc. Now you could plan some specialized strategic teams with specialized gear combinations for those uber PvP wipes. Any number of situations spring to mind where a team of specialists use a combo of their skills to pull of strategic coups against the enemy flag in CtF, not to mention Deathmatches, Assaults, Infiltrators, etc... Face it, co-op play is great, but nothing beats playing AGAINST a human opponent.
Granted, it's a massive undertaking to get started, with balance issues and entire enh lines and spells and gear and all that... Not an overnight job by any means, but since our combat system kicks all other MMOs' butts, our PvP play would rock too.
I again bring up LotRO, just to mention that they have both PvE and PvM gameplay modes, and it seems to be working well enough for people to pay to play it. From a business standpoint it would make sense to contract a couple dozen devs to get this off the ground and then to staff a few afterwards to keep it updated and balanced. It'd make money.

[BOgre]

The amount of work you have put into arguing your point, you could
have found a game that gives you PvP. End of statement.

Or, rather than have paying customers go somewhere else invest in a way to make them spend money here.

Progressive vs Stagnant
Attractive vs Exclusive
Longevity vs Obscurity
Mass Appeal vs Niche Market
money.in == MONEY.OUT