eSoS: End all be all?

[Boromirs]

So, I'm considering NOT making the pre-requisite Lit 2 Greataxe/Triple Pos blah blah etc. with my shroud larges. Why? I'm a seal away from a eSoS. So, I'm thinking to myself whats the point with shroud stuff anyways?

Boss Raids on hard or highers : Use, a crafted +4 Holy Burst Silver Greataxe of Greater Outside Bane.

Everything else: eSoS.

I'm actually kinda saddened at this realization actually... it severly limits the game since it pretty much peaks out into just one weapon (if you area THF user). Anyhow what do you think?

[dkyle]

Slot a Crystal of Devil's Ruin and it's really a be all end all.

However, you might be disappointed in you rattempt to craft a +4 Holy Burst Silver of Greater Outsider Bane. You're looking at level 75-ish crafting level, and that's a ton of grinding. You'll probably get a MinII faster. +4 Holy Silver of Outsider Bane still beats a MinII, and will be a lot easier to make.

But as far as ESoS vs. LitII, there's not much reason to make a LitII if you can make an ESoS.

[DrNuegebauer]

However, you might be disappointed in you rattempt to craft a +4 Holy Burst Silver of Greater Outsider Bane.

What does Lailat think of this?

[dingal]

So, I'm considering NOT making the pre-requisite Lit 2 Greataxe/Triple Pos blah blah etc. with my shroud larges. Why? I'm a seal away from a eSoS. So, I'm thinking to myself whats the point with shroud stuff anyways?

Boss Raids on hard or highers : Use, a crafted +4 Holy Burst Silver Greataxe of Greater Outside Bane.

Everything else: eSoS.

I'm actually kinda saddened at this realization actually... it severly limits the game since it pretty much peaks out into just one weapon (if you area THF user). Anyhow what do you think?

ESOS is indeed the be-all-end-all for THF builds in most situations. Where it falls behind:

Elite TOD, Shroud, VOD due to extremely high DR and inability to bypass DR (This is alleviated if you're fortunate enough to have a devil's ruin)

Where it excels: Pretty much everywhere else. The thing absolutely destroys everything.

I'd recommend either A. Making a MinII Falchion or GA or an Epic Antique and slotting it with a Heaven's Light (or whatever its call).

If you plan to TR make the MinII so you'll have it at early levels. Shroud weapons obliterate everything below level 20. It's quite nice.

I still carry my LitII to beat on the training dummy and an antique for elite TOD etc.

[Narzic]

What does Lailat think of this?

if he has the crafting level and resources to make that, then i'm sure he could make a cold iron version as well.

[dingal]

What does Lailat think of this?

Ah yes I left out DQ. The DR there is relatively high as well I believe however I still use my ESOS.

Whether the numbers are lying or not I've found myself losing aggro with the antique equipped and taking it right back even after pausing to equip the ESOS.

[Boromirs]

Ah yes I left out DQ. The DR there is relatively high as well I believe however I still use my ESOS.

Whether the numbers are lying or not I've found myself losing aggro with the antique equipped and taking it right back even after pausing to equip the ESOS.

...bleh... it kinda sux that there is only 1 weapon of choice in the end.

[sirgog]

What does Lailat think of this?

The eSOS blows a Min 2 (or comparable weapons like +5 Holy Cold Iron of Pure Good) out of the water on Lailat. It's not even close.

eSOS is just that good on 0 fortification bosses that only have 20 DR. Plus, against Lailat's quite high AC, +10 to-hit sometimes matters, especially if you haven't got a bard.

Someone did a test recently - if the Epic Hellstroke Greataxe was given Holy and also Greater Chaotic Outsider Bane, it would STILL do less damage to eLailat than the eSOS. I'm not sure of their other assumptions (i.e. class, # of TWF feats, etc).


Just get a random lootgen +5 Holy Silver or similar for Elite Horoth and probably hard as well (depending upon your class and whether or not you have the THF feats). If later you want to TR, I recommend a Holy Goodburst 30% Healing Amp maul as the best all-around 12-19 weapon.

[Kinerd]

..bleh... it kinda sux that there is only 1 weapon of choice in the end.On the other hand, it's nice that the effort put into getting an eSoS is rewarded, and rewarded handsomely.

[dingal]

...bleh... it kinda sux that there is only 1 weapon of choice in the end.

Epic Xuum is pretty damned awesome as well. It's only +6 but it has the same crit profile and a massive amount of fire damage to boot. I'd still go ESOS but the difference isn't as gigantic as one would think.

Additionally the ESOS is the best if you're trying to squeeze out every last possible drop of DPS but that in no way means you can't dish out a ton of DPS with a falchion or greataxe of your choice. Prior to Horcs coming out and starting to rule the roost with the massive Str bonus my Dwarf Barb was virtually always the main tank in TOD using his trusty LitII on normal and Antique on Hard or Elite. He started to fall behind in DPS to Horcs and had a harder time holding aggro and I TR;ed him into the same build but with higher str and DPS. I stayed that way until I got my ESOS and I never had any issues being main tank, leading kills in 99% of quests/raids I entered and having a great time.

The ESOS is no different than the Khopesh is for TWF in that those seeking absolute max DPS are going to use those weapons. Sure there are many ways to skin a cat when it comes to the khopesh but pretty much everyone that uses them is going to have a set of MinII's, maybe LitII's and/or Radiance II's and should they be so lucky, epic chaosblades as the ultimate weapon.

Look at the bright side, at least the ESOS is pretty **** cool looking.

[dingal]

The eSOS blows a Min 2 (or comparable weapons like +5 Holy Cold Iron of Pure Good) out of the water on Lailat. It's not even close.

eSOS is just that good on 0 fortification bosses that only have 20 DR. Plus, against Lailat's quite high AC, +10 to-hit sometimes matters, especially if you haven't got a bard.

Someone did a test recently - if the Epic Hellstroke Greataxe was given Holy and also Greater Chaotic Outsider Bane, it would STILL do less damage to eLailat than the eSOS. I'm not sure of their other assumptions (i.e. class, # of TWF feats, etc).


Just get a random lootgen +5 Holy Silver or similar for Elite Horoth and probably hard as well (depending upon your class and whether or not you have the THF feats). If later you want to TR, I recommend a Holy Goodburst 30% Healing Amp maul as the best all-around 12-19 weapon.

Good to know, I never remove my ESOS in DQ or in pretty much any epic for that matter.

Even in Epic DA (I don't know the final bosses stats) I thought it would be prudent to use a DR breaker so I started with my antique and lost aggro. Re-equipped the ESOS and promptly took it right back and kept it the rest of the fight.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

All those people saying Epic Sword of Shadows is the end-all-be-all again don't know what they're talking about.

They don't seem to realize that to use this weapon as a DR breaker against devils and demons, they have to CONSTANTLY farm Augment crystals from Epic Devil Assault.

That effectively chains your leg to the game because every 3 days, your precious crystal will expire and disappear, and you'll have to farm for it all over again. It could take a day, a week, or a month to find another. You have no idea. You could buy another one, but that costs precious resources that are better spent finishing other epic gear, green steels, or gearing up your alternate characters.

In short: It's stupid. You can't systematically use an unrealistic scenario like this in calculations. People just aren't going to always have Augment Crystal of Devil's or whatever in their Epic Sword of Shadow. They aren't going to constantly play the game, farming for the same thing over and over with no end to it. It's pointless. Reliability wins again.

In this case, crafting a +5 Holy Burst Silver Greataxe of Greater Evil/Lawful Outsider Bane would slightly out-damage the Mineral II Greataxe for Pit Fiends. But it will take a long, long time and may not even be guaranteed with all the bugs coming out in this update.

Stick with your mineral 2 for now and earn crafting xp. Then you can decide.

[sirgog]

All those people saying Epic Sword of Shadows is the end-all-be-all again don't know what they're talking about.

They don't seem to realize that to use this weapon as a DR breaker against devils and demons, they have to CONSTANTLY farm Augment crystals from Epic Devil Assault.

That effectively chains your leg to the game because every 3 days, your precious crystal will expire and disappear, and you'll have to farm for it all over again. It could take a day, a week, or a month to find another. You have no idea. You could buy another one, but that costs precious resources that are better spent finishing other epic gear, green steels, or gearing up your alternate characters.

In short: It's stupid. You can't systematically use an unrealistic scenario like this in calculations. People just aren't going to always have Augment Crystal of Devil's or whatever in their Epic Sword of Shadow. They aren't going to constantly play the game, farming for the same thing over and over with no end to it. It's pointless. Reliability wins again.

In this case, crafting a +5 Holy Burst Silver Greataxe of Greater Evil/Lawful Outsider Bane would slightly out-damage the Mineral II Greataxe for Pit Fiends. But it will take a long, long time and may not even be guaranteed with all the bugs coming out in this update.

Stick with your mineral 2 for now and earn crafting xp. Then you can decide.

Anyone that has a Min 2 and a non-DR breaking eSOS and uses the Min 2 in epic DQ2 is a fool. The eSOS is massively, massively ahead on DPS even when it doesn't break DR, even if you hit on a 2 with the Min 2. If you use the Devil Assault Demon augment (which lasts around a month for most powergamers, massively longer for a casual player that happens upon one) it is even better.

eSOS outclasses the Min2 on Shroud and ToD on their most commonly run difficulty as well.

Oh and for crafting - read up on it. The weapon you outlined can't be crafted, and wouldn't just 'slightly' out-DPS a Min2 if it could.




Good to know, I never remove my ESOS in DQ or in pretty much any epic for that matter.

Even in Epic DA (I don't know the final bosses stats) I thought it would be prudent to use a DR breaker so I started with my antique and lost aggro. Re-equipped the ESOS and promptly took it right back and kept it the rest of the fight.

Turigulon has at least 30 DR, and seems to have 50% fortification. He's a Min 2 (or eAG) boss unless you struggle to hit his AC (67 or 68) without the +10.

Sounds like you need to debuff his AC; then your Epic Antique is the better choice.

[Shade]

Turigulon has at least 30 DR, and seems to have 50% fortification. He's a Min 2 (or eAG) boss unless you struggle to hit his AC (67 or 68) without the +10.

Nah none of the epic DA bosses have any sort of fortification. Thus you use ESoS. (even at 30 DR its better with 0% fort)

Even epic arraetrikos didn't seem to have any fort when we fought him in gianthold and the subterrane. Seems like they just forgot to give any fort to epic devils (note the abishai has none either)
Also has 30 DR, vs the elite verisons 35.. Pretty sure Turrigulon matches that DR amount too.. It's like turbine decided that 30 was just as high as they wanna go for epic, yet elite goes higher.

ESoS in u9 is pretty much the be all end all weapons unfortunately. Really boring.

Yea there are a few key exceptions (Hard/Elite Shroud/VoD/ToD) .. But it pretty much is sadly.

Pre U9 we at least had other weapons better at auto crit.. no longer the case.

Pretty much it's:
0-25% fort anything: ESoS
50% fort devil: min2.. (or dr breaking esos)
100% fort construct: ESoS (generally)
100% fort elemental: Lit2 or Triple ice
100% fort undead: Triple pos, blunt or slash depending on type.
Getting your ass kicked and need some CC: Epic Ratkiller or other stunner.

Not much variety in two hander land =/

[sirgog]

Nah none of the epic DA bosses have any sort of fortification. Thus you use ESoS. (even at 30 DR its better with 0% fort)

Even epic arraetrikos didn't seem to have any fort when we fought him in gianthold and the subterrane. Seems like they just forgot to give any fort to epic devils (note the abishai has none either)
Also has 30 DR, vs the elite verisons 35.. Pretty sure Turrigulon matches that DR amount too.. It's like turbine decided that 30 was just as high as they wanna go for epic, yet elite goes higher.

ESoS in u9 is pretty much the be all end all weapons unfortunately. Really boring.

Yea there are a few key exceptions (Hard/Elite Shroud/VoD/ToD) .. But it pretty much is sadly.

Pre U9 we at least had other weapons better at auto crit.. no longer the case.

Pretty much it's:
0-25% fort anything: ESoS
50% fort devil: min2.. (or dr breaking esos)
100% fort construct: ESoS (generally)
100% fort elemental: Lit2 or Triple ice
100% fort undead: Triple pos, blunt or slash depending on type.
Getting your ass kicked and need some CC: Epic Ratkiller or other stunner.

Not much variety in two hander land =/

I'd be interested to see how the classic SoS stacks up against a Min2 on eLailat. I would not be surprised if it is ahead.

[Havok.cry]

I am sorry to have to correct you all but your just wrong... eSOS is inferior to the epic club of the silver flame :P

[Shade]

I'd be interested to see how the classic SoS stacks up against a Min2 on eLailat. I would not be surprised if it is ahead.

They are closer then I expected.. Punched them in Barrage, min2 wins by a decent margin probably due to the fact acid damage now works fully on her (tho you might lose a bit when she goes im am war, as she gains proction from elements):
(numbers are for thf barb +75 dmg mod, seeker 6, 40 dmg glancing blow):

Mineral 2 greataxe:
Average Hit Damage
128.5 = 78-93(Weapon) + 43(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
339.5 = 252-297(Weapon) + 65(Bonus)

Average Natural 20 Damage
353.5 = 252-297(Weapon) + 79(Bonus)

Final Averaged Swing
143.875 = 100.125(Weapon) + 43.75(Bonus)

Sword of Shadow regular vs 20 DR:
Average Hit Damage
75.5 = 57-67(Weapon) + 13.5(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
257.5 = 229-259(Weapon) + 13.5(Bonus)

Final Averaged Swing
126.325 = 113.5(Weapon) + 12.825(Bonus)

Ignores FB bonuses.. Which would scale up the min2 a very slightly, as the crit multis are better with higher base damage. (3d6 vs 2d6 in this case)

[zwiebelring]

So, I'm considering NOT making the pre-requisite Lit 2 Greataxe/Triple Pos blah blah etc. with my shroud larges. Why? I'm a seal away from a eSoS. So, I'm thinking to myself whats the point with shroud stuff anyways?

Boss Raids on hard or highers : Use, a crafted +4 Holy Burst Silver Greataxe of Greater Outside Bane.

Everything else: eSoS.

I'm actually kinda saddened at this realization actually... it severly limits the game since it pretty much peaks out into just one weapon (if you area THF user). Anyhow what do you think?
People forget that everything like crafting is an optional but somehow all optionals become a must because some players want to have the easiest way in quests so they decline everybody else.

Gear you have to grind for like hell is somehow state of the art. And then these grinders complain the game is too easy just because they push it to a limit beyond the average community who is just fine with whatever they have. If they used ordinary gear they faced a whole new challenge. Gimping is an art!

I never saw a reason to limit myself just to those 2 weapon categories (shroud and/or epic). In fact Shroudgear gives you maximum flexibility for your character so the first gear you aim for is actually customized stuff before those high end toys for which you have to have luck above anything else.

For this nice Greataxe you suggest... well you either have to be very lucky to get it or you have to grind for the ingredients in U9-crafting... somehow Shroudstuff is default situation if you have the content. But even without you can survive, it is a matter of knowledge about your toons capabilities and your own playskill. And, of course, your own goals.

Be creative, use 2 Kukri's, stand in for your style but know what you are doing. Kopesh-copycat or style. It is up to you ;)... but to be honest I didn't care if I had to use esos. You have the option because you are close to complete it so why not be happy and kill everything now. Esos is not that common, otherwise everyone had one.

p.s.:
Don't take my post too seriously, but the fact that optional gear like epic stuff or crafted max.ed dps items somehow became mandatory and create selection by players is sad imho.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

Oh and for crafting - read up on it. The weapon you outlined can't be crafted, and wouldn't just 'slightly' out-DPS a Min2 if it could.


Crafting is currently BETA. Recipes only go up to level 50. It's only logical to assume that since every single weapon in the game has a +5 lootgen counterpart, you will eventually be able to craft +5 weapons.

Glad I can read between the lines.

And yes that weapon wouldn't significantly out-damage a Min II Greataxe.

Vast majority of DPS is determined by strength bonus.
Both have the same critical profile.
And Devils take damage from Slicing and Acid now.
You factor those and the hit die of Green Steel into account and you don't see a massive damage boost, just a small one.

[sirgog]

Crafting is currently BETA. Recipes only go up to level 50. It's only logical to assume that since every single weapon in the game has a +5 lootgen counterpart, you will eventually be able to craft +5 weapons.

Glad I can read between the lines.

And yes that weapon wouldn't significantly out-damage a Min II Greataxe.

Vast majority of DPS is determined by strength bonus.
Both have the same critical profile.
And Devils take damage from Slicing and Acid now.
You factor those and the hit die of Green Steel into account and you don't see a massive damage boost, just a small one.

If you ever try to craft that +5 HB silver of GLOB, it will have a minimum level of 25 under the crafting system we currently have. Not sure if you have a character that can meet that requirement. I do not.

If you do, I'm glad you can read between the lines.

[stille_nacht]

Slot a Crystal of Devil's Ruin and it's really a be all end all.

However, you might be disappointed in you rattempt to craft a +4 Holy Burst Silver of Greater Outsider Bane. You're looking at level 75-ish crafting level, and that's a ton of grinding. You'll probably get a MinII faster. +4 Holy Silver of Outsider Bane still beats a MinII, and will be a lot easier to make.

But as far as ESoS vs. LitII, there's not much reason to make a LitII if you can make an ESoS.

its less the level, than purely how many ingredients you need

for a holy burst effect, youll need to deconstruct 100+ holy weapons at least, only have a vague estimation, but its probably faster just to make a min II then craft a hb silver of geob.....

[EustaceTrevelyan]

So, I'm considering NOT making the pre-requisite Lit 2 Greataxe/Triple Pos blah blah etc. with my shroud larges. Why? I'm a seal away from a eSoS. So, I'm thinking to myself whats the point with shroud stuff anyways?

Boss Raids on hard or highers : Use, a crafted +4 Holy Burst Silver Greataxe of Greater Outside Bane.

Everything else: eSoS.

I'm actually kinda saddened at this realization actually... it severly limits the game since it pretty much peaks out into just one weapon (if you area THF user). Anyhow what do you think?

Well, I agree, they kinda went nuts with that one. But TR's are still going to want GS, since you're not necessarily going to spend that much time at 20 after the first life.

But for epics, yeah, the eSoS is the best allrounder; you need a +5 {alignment-dmg} of Greater bane to come close, (gets close to same + to hit, and that will matter to some builds on epic).

[Astraghal]

On the other hand, it's nice that the effort put into getting an eSoS is rewarded, and rewarded handsomely.

What effort? You either run eVoN1/eVon6 a couple of times and get lucky and pull the shard/seal/scroll or you run them back to back for a year and never even see one drop.

The eSoS is a kind of /godmode weapon for DDO, it's the only truly epic weapon.

The other epic weapons need to be made better in order to compete.

[sirgog]

What effort? You either run eVoN1/eVon6 a couple of times and get lucky and pull the shard/seal/scroll or you run them back to back for a year and never even see one drop.

The eSoS is a kind of /godmode weapon for DDO, it's the only truly epic weapon.

The other epic weapons need to be made better in order to compete.

It's always struck me as ridiculous that the best epic weapon, by far, drops from two epics (VON1 and 6) that are both in the easiest 25% of all epics.

OTOH, the far inferior Epic Xuum (still a pretty good weapon and the only other two-hander that is clearly better than Greensteel) pretty much requires you to be running epic ADQ1 to get the seal.

[Boromirs]

It's always struck me as ridiculous that the best epic weapon, by far, drops from two epics (VON1 and 6) that are both in the easiest 25% of all epics.

OTOH, the far inferior Epic Xuum (still a pretty good weapon and the only other two-hander that is clearly better than Greensteel) pretty much requires you to be running epic ADQ1 to get the seal.

I think when the devs design loot they base it primarily on what the weapon is in relation to the "RP" rather then pure numerical calculations.

They are like "Wow, this is a sword of madness! Insanity! Wouldn't it be cool if it made enemies attack each other..." Again, 99% of the pbase is looking for maximum efficiency and therefore maximum damage per second... an off chance weapon that does a relatively weak effect is not something desirable thus it gets ignored like most epic stuff out there.

What the devs I think need to concentrate more on is upping the frequency and potency of "weird effect" weapons (weird being non - BIG number/Crit multiplier weapons) and at the same time put enemies and situations in the game where these abilities/skills are absolutely needed in order to complete.(AKA a really good intimi-tank is almost absolutely needed for a smooth Elite VoD... hence intimidate is not totally neglected). Hamstring on the otherhand... I mean do I care? Why don't I just ARRGHHH eSoS it to death?

[Thrudh]

ESoS in u9 is pretty much the be all end all weapons unfortunately. Really boring.

Weird... Didn't you rage-quit when they nerfed eSoS the first time?

Should they nerf it again, so there are more choices in THF-land?

[Darlor]

What should they do to fix it?

Swing the nerfbat in eSoS' direction again?
Consistently bring other epic weapons into god-mode territory?
Something else?

[Shade]

Something else?

Yea option d:
Consistently bring other epic weapons into balanced territory?

The current nerfed esos is by absolutely not "god mode" For all but the most insane top 100% geared players, it does inferior dps to your common lit2 khopeshs. Given that its about 50 times harder to get then a set of khopeshs, I hardly call it overpowered. Whats wrong here is all the other epic two handers are vastly underpowered.

So yes, all other epic two handers should be brought in line with the esos.

The fact they made all newer epic two handers far inferio to basic greensteel was absolutely astoundingly bad design.

Even epic xuum could do with a bit of a boost. Should gain additional fire damage to make it stand out above the esos for what it should - creatures vulnerable to fire damage.. Currently it doesn't even do that. (and its insane harder to acquire - theres at least 200+ epic sos on khyber today, and probably less then 10 xuums) Running some quick number simply added adding flamine and flaming blast to it, would do the trick, as well as bring it in line with triple fire greensteel vs 100% fort targets its good for (epic mummies).
Barrage numbers for refence (used my own char since I have/use these.. dmg mod: 80, seeker 10):
Epic xuum vs epic troll (120% fire dmg):
Average Hit Damage
146.125 = 82-96(Weapon) + 57.125(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
365.125 = 276-318(Weapon) + 68.125(Bonus)

Final Averaged Swing
204.5188 = 146.95(Weapon) + 57.56875(Bonus)

Epic SoS vs epic troll:
Average Hit Damage
143.5 = 89-114(Weapon) + 42(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
376.5 = 297-372(Weapon) + 42(Bonus)

Final Averaged Swing
206.225 = 166.325(Weapon) + 39.9(Bonus)

Only a few points off (realisticly a few more points then this, as it doesn't factor FB/Kensai bonuses which favor the esos), so it just needs a little boost.

[Chai]

Weird... Didn't you rage-quit when they nerfed eSoS the first time?

Should they nerf it again, so there are more choices in THF-land?

No, they should bring more epic weapons in line with it, instead of having them be on par or even inferior to shroud weapons.

Xuum is aight but harder to get. Most of the other stuff is inferior to double shard shroud stuff.

[grodon9999]

I would rather they had balanced the styles so say THF Mineral II and TWF Mineral II were much closer in damage-output than release one be-all-end-all weapon that people have literally lost their sanity pursuing.

TWFing weapons just ain't ever gonna get any better than what we have now. They can't without totally screwing any semblance of balance.

[Thrudh]

No, they should bring more epic weapons in line with it, instead of having them be on par or even inferior to shroud weapons.

I'd be okay with that... Epic weapons should be better than Shroud weapons...

[Chai]

I would rather they had balanced the styles so say THF Mineral II and TWF Mineral II were much closer in damage-output than release one be-all-end-all weapon that people have literally lost their sanity pursuing.

TWFing weapons just ain't ever gonna get any better than what we have now. They can't without totally screwing any semblance of balance.

To do this we would have to be rolling around on 30-38 str toons. Once str gets into the 70s and such weapons with better crit profiles own everything else regardless of base damage. In the low-mid str game (where just about every single other incarnation of D&D is, heh) better crit profile -vs- better base damage is more of a preference, and not an absolute. In DDO with stats being so unbalanced (hi I got 12 dex and 88 str) crit profile rules your face, especially in metagaming land where even the highest end raid bosses either have 0% fort, or 50% fort.

Khopesh is a huge issue here, as this was changed from the norm, as is the fact that there are so many stackable str buffs in the game. Most games that use dex to hit and str for damage dont have this issue.

The only other way to "balance the styles" is to slow down the rate of attack of TWF. Let me know when this happens, because I want to have the store fully stocked with riot materials and popcorn machines, heh.

[Shade]

I would rather they had balanced the styles so say THF Mineral II and TWF Mineral II were much closer in damage-output than release one be-all-end-all weapon that people have literally lost their sanity pursuing.

TWFing weapons just ain't ever gonna get any better than what we have now. They can't without totally screwing any semblance of balance.

Well they can only do that by severely nerfing a greensteel kophesh down.. So that idea is out.

And no, they, or anyone who can run a simply dps calc program like barrage can and should add better weapons, while keeping both styles balanced.

Would be easy enough to add a cool new twf weapon that does say 5-10% more dmg versus a specific enemy then a lit2 khopesh. Wouldn't break the game, and would give end game players goals besides boring TR'ing.

Hell there already is one available, which U9 finally brings into balance as it was previously useless due to its **** multiplier (x2):
The anceint vulkorim dagger. Superior to even a lit2 khopesh. Heres the numbers:

edit: mm screwed up the numbers, its very slightly inferior to a khopesh , tho better then a dwarven axe. But the point remains ,they could make an epic bane thats actually well designed so its just slightly better then a lit2 for its 1 specificly enemy.

[grodon9999]

Well they can only do that by severely nerfing a greensteel kophesh down.. So that idea is out.

You really think so? Turbine is so nerf-happy that there are no sacred cows.

[dkyle]

its less the level, than purely how many ingredients you need

It's all about the level. The cost of any one high level shard pales in comparison to the cost of getting high enough level to craft it with at least 50% success rate.


for a holy burst effect, youll need to deconstruct 100+ holy weapons at least, only have a vague estimation, but its probably faster just to make a min II then craft a hb silver of geob.....

Or you could deconstruct a couple dozen Deathblock items.

Deconstructing Holy (or even Holy Burst) to make a Holy Burst shard isn't the best way to do it.

[Shade]

The only other way to "balance the styles" is to slow down the rate of attack of TWF. Let me know when this happens, because I want to have the store fully stocked with riot materials and popcorn machines, heh.

um that was update 5 remember?
Current attack rates are equalized except:
twf X per min + 80% offhands
thf x per min +75% glancing blow

There's no real significant differences in the amoutn of hits per seconds anymore. The big difference is:
Off hands bonuses (half str, full specials)
vs
Glancing blows (dmg a % of main, low specials % except for certain cases)

Which imo is a cool difference. It means twf benefits more from weaposn with a lot of special dmg (like a lit2) and THF more from higher base damage (like a esos).

the desparity in multiplies isn't an issue after the auto crit nerf. and the desparity in threat ranges and be modified per item to balance it out (exactly how the esos balances out the fact THF gets no enhanced crit thread range greensteel like twf does)

And:
Haste boost providing a bigger benefit to twf vs thf. That bug should be fixed without nerfing twf, just give thf the current bonuse twf gets.

[Shade]

You really think so? Turbine is so nerf-happy that there are no sacred cows.

I didn't mean they were scared, i know they love to nerf things.

But they always do it a broad scale without thinking about the wider impacts of the nerfs.

They wouldn't just do something weirdl ike drop a greensteel khopesh down to 20/x3 crit.. They would nerf all khopesh all together. Lootgen/unique/you name it.

[Chai]

um that was update 5 remember?
Current attack rates are equalized except:
twf X per min + 80% offhands
thf x per min +75% glancing blow

Yeap I remember, and I remember the riots that took place as well, thus my comment about keeping the store stocked in riot gear and popcorn machines, heh.


There's no real significant differences in the amoutn of hits per seconds anymore. The big difference is:
Off hands bonuses (half str, full specials)
vs
Glancing blows (dmg a % of main, low specials % except for certain cases)

Which imo is a cool difference. It means twf benefits more from weaposn with a lot of special dmg (like a lit2) and THF more from higher base damage (like a esos).

The "significant difference" is the amount of grind to get a good two hander, -vs- just having to farm the shroud, or dare I say it, the cove, for TWF.


the desparity in multiplies isn't an issue after the auto crit nerf. and the desparity in threat ranges and be modified per item to balance it out (exactly how the esos balances out the fact THF gets no enhanced crit thread range greensteel like twf does)

After a moderate damage modifier, a loot gen falchion is better than a loot gen great ax or great sword. Its not just the eSOS base damage that makes it best, its the crit profile, which is unmatched, even after the nerf bat hit it once.

What if they made epic antique great ax 20/x4? What about all the other epic weapons which are inferior to shroud double shard weapons?

[Shade]

The "significant difference" is the amount of grind to get a good two hander, -vs- just having to farm the shroud, or dare I say it, the cove, for TWF.
Two handed greensteels are "good" imo. They aren't epic, but they're good enough. Bit off topic anyways...



After a moderate damage modifier, a loot gen falchion is better than a loot gen great ax or great sword. Its not just the eSOS base damage that makes it best, its the crit profile, which is unmatched, even after the nerf bat hit it once.
Lootgen? It doesn't matter because its random.
If you find the +5 holy silver greataxe of GEOB... And it's not a falcion, thats the weapon you use. You can't loot for a specific type of that, because its ultra rare. And by the time you do find the one of the type of "falcion" you want, your already well on your way to a greenstee/epic anyways, so lootgen is just fine as is.

My point is, it doesn't matter what its crit profile, or multipler said sword is... The devs CAN make a greataxe/maul/etc thats better then it, for specific scenarios, without breaking anything. They could of done that when it was x4 crit too. The fact they dont is stupid and makes the game less fun once you get it, as thats "the end" of the weapon upgrade game. Game over.


What if they made epic antique great ax 20/x4? What about all the other epic weapons which are inferior to shroud double shard weapons?
Would be a good start, would at least make it ideal for things with difficult DRs.

[testing1234]

Haste boost providing a bigger benefit to twf vs thf. That bug should be fixed without nerfing twf, just give thf the current bonuse twf gets.

does haste give lesser % boost to thf? or do you mean 15% on a slower attack weapon is less of a boost?

[grodon9999]

does haste give lesser % boost to thf? or do you mean 15% on a slower attack weapon is less of a boost?

According to somebody's tests TWFing is getting 18% off of haste and THFing 15. Boosts go up the same proportion.

[Hendrik]

1. So yes, all other epic two handers should be brought in line with the esos.

2. The fact they made all newer epic two handers far inferio to basic greensteel was absolutely astoundingly bad design.




1. I disagree. Variety is the spice of life, and would not care to see all Epic TH weapons all the 'same'. SoS is one of the most coveted TH weapons in game and to make all TH'ers equal to SoS devaluates it, IMO. Additionally, under this combat revamp, why up the damage potential of more TH'ers when nothing lives more then a few seconds as it stands now? Why go through all that re-coding when your enemy will be long dead before you can even get in a couple extra swings, no matter the weapon in hand.

2. Agreed. I have stated in the past, and will again, GS was the greatest addition and the greatest mistake ever added to DDO. It should have been nerfed LONG ago and our game, IMO again, would be in a better position if it was.

[countfitz]

What game are you playing where you are making an eSoS before a Shroud item? How lucky did you get? I've got 3 shroud items on my main, and haven't even SEEN a scroll shard or whatever of the eSoS drop, ever. EVER.

I call shennanigans! Cheat!

Seriously, though, if you are that lucky then use your larges for either trade or for wearable items. Unless you already have epic claw set, abishi set, and everything else I could want but gave up on months ago when I started running epics and never saw one thing drop.

Actually, I've got 2 scrolls in about 4 months, I do an epic a day or so. One for the staff that level drains (probably saving for trade at some point) and the adherent's pendant (may or may not use for my pali, just made a concordant op necklace though, so don't see the reason). Of course, I do the epics the cheat ways, so mostly just run through without a kill the entire time till an end boss, unless it's last stand. I do last stand SO MUCH and only the one scroll, (the staff) and never even seen the ones I want (talisman, mostly, though any of the set items would be nice).

Anyway, you are a lucky son of a

[Chai]

My point is, it doesn't matter what its crit profile, or multipler said sword is... The devs CAN make a greataxe/maul/etc thats better then it, for specific scenarios, without breaking anything. They could of done that when it was x4 crit too. The fact they dont is stupid and makes the game less fun once you get it, as thats "the end" of the weapon upgrade game. Game over.



Ironic, that they nerfed transmuting so that people wouldnt make or acquire one weapon that was the best weapon they can use in any case scenario, because it would break all DR.

Now, its basically the same scenario, except instead of a weapon that breaks every DR, the weapon does so much damage that its better than most of the weapons that do break DR, in most situations, even though it doesnt break DR. In the situations where it isnt better, we craft weapons for those situations.

[Chai]

What game are you playing where you are making an eSoS before a Shroud item? How lucky did you get? I've got 3 shroud items on my main, and haven't even SEEN a scroll shard or whatever of the eSoS drop, ever. EVER.


Anyway, you are a lucky son of a

Lawl.

The game where khopesh is the best weapon, save for one two hander in the game, and youve had a couple khopesh laying around since early 2008. One could even use cove scimitars, and a couple holy dragon bane weapons until they get an eSOS, and never run the shroud, or any other epics. When they get their epic sword of a thousand truths, they can LR into rarely having to swap another weapon into the equipped slot.

[fluffybunnywilson]

its less the level, than purely how many ingredients you need

for a holy burst effect, youll need to deconstruct 100+ holy weapons at least, only have a vague estimation, but its probably faster just to make a min II then craft a hb silver of geob.....

I already have a pair of +3 Holy Silver Heavy Picks of Lawful Outsider Bane. Those cost nearly nothing to craft once you have the crafting level to make them. I was 60 XP short of being able to craft the +4 enhancement shard and I got impatient, but they're cheap enough to craft that I'll go back and make them +4 some time in the next week.

15 greater Good essences
256 lesser Good essences
10 greater Chaos essences
64 lesser Chaos essences
10 greater Arcane essences
64 lesser Arcane essences

That's a lot cheaper than a MinII and my crafting levels still aren't all very high.

[fluffybunnywilson]

What game are you playing where you are making an eSoS before a Shroud item? How lucky did you get?

I'm guessing that they're making a character after most of the Epic stuff has been gathered on other characters.

...of course, if they have already gathered the Epic pieces that they'll need for a character, then they'll probably have a bag full of Shroud ingredients waiting for that character as well.

[Tirisha]

its less the level, than purely how many ingredients you need

for a holy burst effect, youll need to deconstruct 100+ holy weapons at least, only have a vague estimation, but its probably faster just to make a min II then craft a hb silver of geob.....

plz DO NOT deconstruct your wpns. Armor, Clothing and Jewelry give the same amount of crafting mats and are barely a fraction of the value of wpns. You don't have to Deconstruct holy to make holy. you just need Good Essences which you can get from deconstructing things like Deathblock.

[Attropos]

There are a few places that I'd still use other weapons rather than an Esos.

The big one that hasn't been mentioned is against undead: Triple Pos QStaff on my WF FVS is vastly superior against undead. I have been using +5 Anarchic GSword of GCB against portals as well (and terror vs. OOZES)!

Esos is a suitably "peak" weapon; the difficulty in getting the ingredients is equal to the reward for doing it. I've probably run 100 epic Dragons, and I've pulled 1 sos shard and bought another. Considering they drop on average about 1/10 runs, it seems like the time required to make it vs. the reward is pretty just.

[Cyr]

1. I disagree. Variety is the spice of life, and would not care to see all Epic TH weapons all the 'same'. SoS is one of the most coveted TH weapons in game and to make all TH'ers equal to SoS devaluates it, IMO. Additionally, under this combat revamp, why up the damage potential of more TH'ers when nothing lives more then a few seconds as it stands now? Why go through all that re-coding when your enemy will be long dead before you can even get in a couple extra swings, no matter the weapon in hand.


Variety is the spice of life, however, variety that is essentially non-competitive is pointless...as in almost every epic weapon in the game atm. DPS is the primary, and always will be, criteria by which a weapon will be judged. To make compelling weapons the developers have to make compelling DPS weapons. To make them be different there should be specialized weapons that do signifigantly more dps versus certain mobs then the next best choice, but do much less versus general mobs then the best generalized weapon...ie 50% more dps versus Gnolls then epic SoS, but 30% less damage versus pretty much everything else (or worse) then epic SoS. Awesome twink weapon for CoF, but junk tastic in chrono...

[Krag]

Yea option d:
Consistently bring other epic weapons into balanced territory?

The current nerfed esos is by absolutely not "god mode" For all but the most insane top 100% geared players, it does inferior dps to your common lit2 khopeshs. Given that its about 50 times harder to get then a set of khopeshs, I hardly call it overpowered. Whats wrong here is all the other epic two handers are vastly underpowered.


For some reason you completely ignore the to-hit advantage of eSoS. Unless you are talking about "the most insane top 100% geared players", people have to-hit issues in epic quests. Granted, the problem did not exist pre U9 when every trash mob was consistedly held so everyone and his grandmother could hit on a 1. Spellpass removed that crutch.

Oh, and eSoS is not "50 times harder to get". I don't know about other servers but ev6 is regularly pugged on Argo.

[Chai]

plz DO NOT deconstruct your wpns. Armor, Clothing and Jewelry give the same amount of crafting mats and are barely a fraction of the value of wpns. You don't have to Deconstruct holy to make holy. you just need Good Essences which you can get from deconstructing things like Deathblock.

Yeap exactly.

1. Roll up a monk.
2. Level to 20.
3. Take every single deathblock robe of ___________ as an end reward
4. ????
5. Profit.

Level 5 amount of good essences / deathblock, which drops like rain.

[sephiroth1084]

The ESoS needs to get nerfed, again, and other epic 2-handers need to be boosted.

The problem right now is that as more sources of base damage become available, the ESoS will continue to pull ahead of anything that gets boosted to or slightly above its level. Any monsters with very high AC will also favor the ESoS.

What it all ultimately boils down to is that weapons in the game need to be balanced in a way that things that are powerful in a certain situation or against a particular enemy are necessarily going to be better in those situations than the generalist weapons. A Min II is not as strong as a Holy Burst of GEOB, but is useful in many more situations. The ESoS, however, is the most generally useful weapon (highest to-hit, highest base damage, best critical profile) and the most powerful in nearly every situation. Xuum should be quit a bit stronger vs. monster susceptible to fire, but it isn't. Simply making Xuum stronger won't work because if it ends up 2-5 points ahead of the ESoS, players will still probably just use the latter since it will be useful everywhere fire damage doesn't work. Players tend to move away from the golfbag of weapons for every situation at a certain point, and the ESoS just applies to too much of the game for other weapons to be meaningful unless they bypass it by a lot.

As it is, with enough base damage, the regular SoS is better than a Lit II. What this tells us is that crit profile is something the devs need to be extraordinarily careful playing around with as it is just so hard to balance.

Now, Lit II weapons are in a similar boat, mostly because so much of our end game lack lightning resistance or immuntiy. If we saw more of that in a lot of relevant content, the Lit II would be less of the go-to weapon before acquiring an ESoS and we might see more of the other Shroud recipes getting used. The new crafting system throws a wrench into all of that by offering the possibility of readily available medium-plus Holy of Greater Bane weapons that bypass a single metal DR, making those a new standard that Shroud weapons have to seriously be measured against. Min II still looks attractive, as it consolidates backpack space, but isn't complete junk. Still, how many people are going to craft a Min II (or a pair) rather than a set of appropriate high-DPS DR breakers?

[Tirisha]

Yeap exactly.

1. Roll up a monk.
2. Level to 20.
3. Take every single deathblock robe of ___________ as an end reward
4. ????
5. Profit.

Level 5 amount of good essences / deathblock, which drops like rain.

I swear I get 5 deathblock robes to choose from every quest reward on my monk O.o

[Hendrik]

Variety is the spice of life, however, variety that is essentially non-competitive is pointless...as in almost every epic weapon in the game atm. DPS is the primary, and always will be, criteria by which a weapon will be judged. To make compelling weapons the developers have to make compelling DPS weapons. To make them be different there should be specialized weapons that do signifigantly more dps versus certain mobs then the next best choice, but do much less versus general mobs then the best generalized weapon...ie 50% more dps versus Gnolls then epic SoS, but 30% less damage versus pretty much everything else (or worse) then epic SoS. Awesome twink weapon for CoF, but junk tastic in chrono...

As always, thanks friend for the reply.

[Tirisha]

The ESoS needs to get nerfed, again, and

What it all ultimately boils down to is that weapons in the game need to be balanced in a way that things that are powerful in a certain situation or against a particular enemy are necessarily going to be better in those situations than the generalist weapons.

Pos Pos Pos Wpns are now uber against undead:D /hugs my 2Posx3 longswords that I used all this time just for flavor.

[Attropos]

The ESoS needs to get nerfed, again, and other epic 2-handers need to be boosted.

The problem right now is that as more sources of base damage become available, the ESoS will continue to pull ahead of anything that gets boosted to or slightly above its level. Any monsters with very high AC will also favor the ESoS.

What it all ultimately boils down to is that weapons in the game need to be balanced in a way that things that are powerful in a certain situation or against a particular enemy are necessarily going to be better in those situations than the generalist weapons. A Min II is not as strong as a Holy Burst of GEOB, but is useful in many more situations. The ESoS, however, is the most generally useful weapon (highest to-hit, highest base damage, best critical profile) and the most powerful in nearly every situation. Xuum should be quit a bit stronger vs. monster susceptible to fire, but it isn't. Simply making Xuum stronger won't work because if it ends up 2-5 points ahead of the ESoS, players will still probably just use the latter since it will be useful everywhere fire damage doesn't work. Players tend to move away from the golfbag of weapons for every situation at a certain point, and the ESoS just applies to too much of the game for other weapons to be meaningful unless they bypass it by a lot.

As it is, with enough base damage, the regular SoS is better than a Lit II. What this tells us is that crit profile is something the devs need to be extraordinarily careful playing around with as it is just so hard to balance.

Now, Lit II weapons are in a similar boat, mostly because so much of our end game lack lightning resistance or immuntiy. If we saw more of that in a lot of relevant content, the Lit II would be less of the go-to weapon before acquiring an ESoS and we might see more of the other Shroud recipes getting used. The new crafting system throws a wrench into all of that by offering the possibility of readily available medium-plus Holy of Greater Bane weapons that bypass a single metal DR, making those a new standard that Shroud weapons have to seriously be measured against. Min II still looks attractive, as it consolidates backpack space, but isn't complete junk. Still, how many people are going to craft a Min II (or a pair) rather than a set of appropriate high-DPS DR breakers?

Ferrum,

Esos excels in most situations, but you have to remember that it is the "pinnacle" of THF. I hate to agree with Axer, but he is right; as it is now, a pair of GS Khopeshes will deal as much damage as the Epic Sword of Shadows. I know you know how hard it is to get the Esos as compared to some tier 3 gs, so nerfing the Esos would just be putting 2HF behind TWF by a substantial amount again. As it is, THF and TWF are comparable, but that's based mainly on the fact that the Esos is so good.

There's a huge reason that we see so many 18/2 or 12/6/2 barb and fighter splits, and that's because even with an Esos, TWF is comparable (or better)

[maddmatt70]

Well they can only do that by severely nerfing a greensteel kophesh down.. So that idea is out.

And no, they, or anyone who can run a simply dps calc program like barrage can and should add better weapons, while keeping both styles balanced.

Would be easy enough to add a cool new twf weapon that does say 5-10% more dmg versus a specific enemy then a lit2 khopesh. Wouldn't break the game, and would give end game players goals besides boring TR'ing.

Hell there already is one available, which U9 finally brings into balance as it was previously useless due to its **** multiplier (x2):
The anceint vulkorim dagger. Superior to even a lit2 khopesh. Heres the numbers:

edit: mm screwed up the numbers, its very slightly inferior to a khopesh , tho better then a dwarven axe. But the point remains ,they could make an epic bane thats actually well designed so its just slightly better then a lit2 for its 1 specificly enemy.

I liked what they did with the vulkorim dagger although it should be a little stronger. I am surprised they did not make alot more weapons like the dagger, but what have you. The end game is kind of a mess as is. Hope they get it fixed prior to the new end game quests coming out. Hopefully they invest alot into the end game soon. Almost has me trying to sign up for the test server because my guess is there is not enough end game representation there oh well..

[LordPiglet]

Ah yes I left out DQ. The DR there is relatively high as well I believe however I still use my ESOS.

Whether the numbers are lying or not I've found myself losing aggro with the antique equipped and taking it right back even after pausing to equip the ESOS.

Actually, the boss information thread show her to have like 20/dr on epic so that's pretty minimal.

[sephiroth1084]

Ferrum,

Esos excels in most situations, but you have to remember that it is the "pinnacle" of THF. I hate to agree with Axer, but he is right; as it is now, a pair of GS Khopeshes will deal as much damage as the Epic Sword of Shadows. I know you know how hard it is to get the Esos as compared to some tier 3 gs, so nerfing the Esos would just be putting 2HF behind TWF by a substantial amount again. As it is, THF and TWF are comparable, but that's based mainly on the fact that the Esos is so good.

There's a huge reason that we see so many 18/2 or 12/6/2 barb and fighter splits, and that's because even with an Esos, TWF is comparable (or better)
That's a problem with THF (and maybe TWF) then and should NOT be balanced by a single, hard to acquire, available only at level 20 weapon! I'm really tired of seeing this argument tossed out whenever someone suggests further nerfing the ESoS. What are all the THF characters doing between level 12 and 19? The 20s who have dozens and dozens of dragon completions without a shard or scroll?

I'm sorry, but this argument is simply invalid for this discussion.

[sirgog]

That's a problem with THF (and maybe TWF) then and should NOT be balanced by a single, hard to acquire, available only at level 20 weapon! I'm really tired of seeing this argument tossed out whenever someone suggests further nerfing the ESoS. What are all the THF characters doing between level 12 and 19? The 20s who have dozens and dozens of dragon completions without a shard or scroll?

I'm sorry, but this argument is simply invalid for this discussion.

eSOS also comes from the easiest two epics in the VON chain (seal from 1, shard from 6, base item 6).

Making it is easier than making pretty much any other epic item except Carnival chain epics.

[sephiroth1084]

eSOS also comes from the easiest two epics in the VON chain (seal from 1, shard from 6, base item 6).

Making it is easier than making pretty much any other epic item except Carnival chain epics.
I'm not sure I agree with that assessment.

The quests are easy, yes, and at least VoN 6 is run pretty frequently, but the scroll is among the most expensive, while the seal, shard and even sword itself are all hotly contested items. I, for one, have somewhere around 80-100 epic dragon completions across my characters and yet have no shards to show for it, and no scroll either. No other VoN item is that hard to make, and no Carnival or Sentinels item. Some of the desert raid and explorer items are.

There is still also the matter of time. Easy or no, VoN 5 (normal) and 6 epic aren't short. Even with good groups you're typically looking at around an hour from the time you start forming the group to the time you finish your looting, and much of the time it is quite a bit longer than that, even. And I still run across the occasional failed attempt, most often on the bases.

In any case, what is it you are suggesting here, Numot? Should it be nerfed because it both overshadows every other 2-hander in the game while coming from quests without challenge? That it is fine to be the linchpin for the value of THF at endgame because it is easy enough to acquire for it to be assumed for everyone? I've run many quests and raids where I was the lone standout in a sea of ESoS wielders, but I'm also not typically running with the Khyberian mediocrity, either.

[Attropos]

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment.

The quests are easy, yes, and at least VoN 6 is run pretty frequently, but the scroll is among the most expensive, while the seal, shard and even sword itself are all hotly contested items. I, for one, have somewhere around 80-100 epic dragon completions across my characters and yet have no shards to show for it, and no scroll either. No other VoN item is that hard to make, and no Carnival or Sentinels item. Some of the desert raid and explorer items are.

There is still also the matter of time. Easy or no, VoN 5 (normal) and 6 epic aren't short. Even with good groups you're typically looking at around an hour from the time you start forming the group to the time you finish your looting, and much of the time it is quite a bit longer than that, even. And I still run across the occasional failed attempt, most often on the bases.

In any case, what is it you are suggesting here, Numot? Should it be nerfed because it both overshadows every other 2-hander in the game while coming from quests without challenge? That it is fine to be the linchpin for the value of THF at endgame because it is easy enough to acquire for it to be assumed for everyone? I've run many quests and raids where I was the lone standout in a sea of ESoS wielders, but I'm also not typically running with the Khyberian mediocrity, either .

You run with me :P

Rather than nerf THF's only weapon that can bring it to par with TWF, I would much rather see specialized two handers like the Ancient Vulkorim Dagger. There really aren't that many good two handed weapons, and there are a lot of places that they could expand to. No Epic Vorpal 2 Handers, no epic 2H banes, etc.

I think that the ESoS is fine for what it is: simply put, the best THF weapon overall. Seal and shard come from easy quests, but remember that you can only get the shard in the raid. With the exception of desert raid gear, the SoS is probably the hardest piece of gear to make (abashai sets are a little bit easier I think). The problem is that you have a chance at the shard 1/3 days per character, as opposed o 1 per day per character for most other gear.

[sephiroth1084]

You run with me :P Not really supporting my statement here, noob. :p



Rather than nerf THF's only weapon that can bring it to par with TWF, I would much rather see specialized two handers like the Ancient Vulkorim Dagger. There really aren't that many good two handed weapons, and there are a lot of places that they could expand to. No Epic Vorpal 2 Handers, no epic 2H banes, etc. I'd like to see some 2-handers similar to the AVD, but as I've shown elsewhere, the ESoS is soooo far ahead of everything else it's hard to make something that compares. For instance, I had suggested improving the Epic Hellstroke by adding Anarchic Burst and Greater Chaotic Outsider Bane (on top of it bypassing Lailat DR, gaining 6% doublestrike and Maiming), and it was still behind the ESoS vs. Lailat, despite the greatsword's not bypassing DR. Making a weapon that is truly competitive with the ESoS in the hands of a barbarian probably ends up being way ahead in the hands of everyone else since they are gaining less, typically, from the crit profile and more from weapon enhancements.



I think that the ESoS is fine for what it is: simply put, the best THF weapon overall. Seal and shard come from easy quests, but remember that you can only get the shard in the raid. With the exception of desert raid gear, the SoS is probably the hardest piece of gear to make (abashai sets are a little bit easier I think). The problem is that you have a chance at the shard 1/3 days per character, as opposed o 1 per day per character for most other gear.
I think this is a fair limiting factor in attaining it, but I dislike how much it stands above every other weapon in nearly every circumstance.

[Havok.cry]

my 2 cents:
no matter what they do unless something new is identical to eSOS then numbers will clearly tell that one is superior... there will ALWAYS be one that is superior. Nerfing eSOS will either cause something else to be clearly superior to anyone who looks at the numbers or still leave eSOS clearly superior to anyone who looks at the numbers. One your argument will still apply.. just to a different weapon, and two your argument will still apply to eSOS.
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents.... oh and using an inferior weapon makes the player more epic than using the best, simply because of adversity.

[fluffybunnywilson]

my 2 cents:
no matter what they do unless something new is identical to eSOS then numbers will clearly tell that one is superior... there will ALWAYS be one that is superior.

Turbine could choose to make a weapon that is superior to eSoS in some situations and inferior in others. I think that most people would like that.

I'm thinking of the difference between a MinII and a LitII as an example here. LitII is better for most characters against most enemies, but a MinII is still good against everything and is superior to LitII in a small number of very important encounters.

[sephiroth1084]

my 2 cents:
no matter what they do unless something new is identical to eSOS then numbers will clearly tell that one is superior... there will ALWAYS be one that is superior. Nerfing eSOS will either cause something else to be clearly superior to anyone who looks at the numbers or still leave eSOS clearly superior to anyone who looks at the numbers. One your argument will still apply.. just to a different weapon, and two your argument will still apply to eSOS.
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents.... oh and using an inferior weapon makes the player more epic than using the best, simply because of adversity.
In response to this assertion...

Turbine could choose to make a weapon that is superior to eSoS in some situations and inferior in others. I think that most people would like that.

I'm thinking of the difference between a MinII and a LitII as an example here. LitII is better for most characters against most enemies, but a MinII is still good against everything and is superior to LitII in a small number of very important encounters.
Notably, the Min II is superior to the Lit II in more situations, at least, than it is superior to the ESoS, though not by many. Lit II is also problematic, but less so, since it is more widely available and can be tailored to your particular character--dwarves and elves don't need to give up their racial bonuses, fighters aren't locked into selecting greatswords as their preferred 2-handed weapon, etc...

Ideally, a weapon that is so universally good should be weaker than one that is of specific utility. Compare the Epic Ancient Vulkoorim Dagger to some other 1-handed weapon. Many weapons are better in many situations, but against giants, this weapon is peerless! The problem as it stands with the ESoS is that not even the narrowly-designed weapons are anywhere close to being as strong.

[fluffybunnywilson]

In response to this assertion...

Notably, the Min II is superior to the Lit II in more situations, at least, than it is superior to the ESoS, though not by many. Lit II is also problematic, but less so, since it is more widely available and can be tailored to your particular character--dwarves and elves don't need to give up their racial bonuses, fighters aren't locked into selecting greatswords as their preferred 2-handed weapon, etc...

Ideally, a weapon that is so universally good should be weaker than one that is of specific utility. Compare the Epic Ancient Vulkoorim Dagger to some other 1-handed weapon. Many weapons are better in many situations, but against giants, this weapon is peerless! The problem as it stands with the ESoS is that not even the narrowly-designed weapons are anywhere close to being as strong.

100% agreed. Turbine can make weapons that are better than eSoS in narrow areas, but they do appear to have decided that they don't want to do so. Maybe that's a good thing and maybe that's a bad thing. I'm honestly not sure at this point.

[sephiroth1084]

100% agreed. Turbine can make weapons that are better than eSoS in narrow areas, but they do appear to have decided that they don't want to do so. Maybe that's a good thing and maybe that's a bad thing. I'm honestly not sure at this point.
Well, it's hard to balance right now with how wildly the ESoS's dominance varies based on base damage of the character. On top of that, at the high end it is so far ahead of every other weapon that making weapons that are simply better than that is likely more DPS growth than the devs want to put in our hands.

With a base damage of +45 (and +6 Seeker), a Lit II falchion does about 92.8 damage per swing, while the ESoS does about 102. An increase of about 7 damage per swing isn't huge, per se, but it's significant.

Meanwhile, with a base damage of +85 (and +6 Seeker) the Lit II does around 142.8 (up 50 points from the lower base damage, or an increase of 5 points of damage over what the change in base damage provides). The ESoS deals around 164, which is an increase of almost 20 points over the Lit II in the same hands and as much of an increase over the lower base damage was getting after removing the differences in base damage.

Adding another 2d6 base damage, 3d6 effect damage and 3d6 crit damage to the Lit II Falchion brings it even at 85 damage, and puts it at 114.7 at 45 base, which is a surge of 12 points of damage per swing.

Do you see why it's so **** difficult to balance anything against the ESoS? Adding a ton of extra damage to a weapon already loaded down with a bunch of bonus effects far outstrips the ESoS at lower base damage values (such as for a bard, FvS, cleric or a paladin with mediocre gear), while it just manages to break even at the high end with those bonuses. Anything done to improve another weapon for a barbarian by even a small margin will necessarily end up eclipsing the ESoS for the 2-handed melees at the lower end of the spectrum.

DR-breaking and fortification are a factor, to be sure, but we have more to worry about than bosses when choosing (and having designed) weapons.

[Failedlegend]

Ok at the risk of sounding like a noob I've never actually played a melee type high enough to even bother looking into the SoS or ESoS....whats so great about it? Iis it because of the 5D6? it must be cause thats the only effect on it over another Epic Two-Hander...actually beyond its slots and the 5d6 it has no other effect at all.


Note: Not being condescending im just totally blind to why its so uber...again never really played a melee before.

[sephiroth1084]

Ok at the risk of sounding like a noob I've never actually played a melee type high enough to even bother looking into the SoS or ESoS....whats so great about it? Iis it because of the 5D6? it must be cause thats the only effect on it over another Epic Two-Hander...actually beyond its slots and the 5d6 it has no other effect at all.


Note: Not being condescending im just totally blind to why its so uber...again never really played a melee before.
It has a +10 enhancement bonus, which is +4 to-hit over nearly every other weapon (not many +5 Greater Banes around) and +4 damage that gets multiplied on crits, which ends up being worth probably about as much as an elemental burst, except that this won't ever do just 1-3 damage.

It has 5d6 base damage, all of which gets multiplied on crits, which is worth considerably more than adding Holy and an element to a greatsword.

It then has a 15-20 threat range, like a falchion, but with a x3 multiplier attached. This is the biggest culprit, and is the reason that even the non-epic SoS can surpass the power of a Lightning Strike weapon.

Individually, any of the above would be pretty strong, but all together the effect is much greater than the sum of its parts.

[Failedlegend]

It has a +10 enhancement bonus, which is +4 to-hit over nearly every other weapon (not many +5 Greater Banes around) and +4 damage that gets multiplied on crits, which ends up being worth probably about as much as an elemental burst, except that this won't ever do just 1-3 damage.

It has 5d6 base damage, all of which gets multiplied on crits, which is worth considerably more than adding Holy and an element to a greatsword.

It then has a 15-20 threat range, like a falchion, but with a x3 multiplier attached. This is the biggest culprit, and is the reason that even the non-epic SoS can surpass the power of a Lightning Strike weapon.

Individually, any of the above would be pretty strong, but all together the effect is much greater than the sum of its parts.

Ah ok...makes sense...kinda boring though :P

[Havok.cry]

In response to this assertion...

Notably, the Min II is superior to the Lit II in more situations, at least, than it is superior to the ESoS, though not by many. Lit II is also problematic, but less so, since it is more widely available and can be tailored to your particular character--dwarves and elves don't need to give up their racial bonuses, fighters aren't locked into selecting greatswords as their preferred 2-handed weapon, etc...

Ideally, a weapon that is so universally good should be weaker than one that is of specific utility. Compare the Epic Ancient Vulkoorim Dagger to some other 1-handed weapon. Many weapons are better in many situations, but against giants, this weapon is peerless! The problem as it stands with the ESoS is that not even the narrowly-designed weapons are anywhere close to being as strong.

Ok I think I'm on the same page as you, thank you for the clarification :)

[Shade]

eSOS also comes from the easiest two epics in the VON chain (seal from 1, shard from 6, base item 6).

Making it is easier than making pretty much any other epic item except Carnival chain epics.

lol.. QFE.

Sorry but your really out of touch on the difficult of acquiring things if you think that.

Theres a ton of reasons why the ESoS is among the HARDEST epics to get.
1. Requires 3 bound ingredients, where as most any non raid epic requires only 2 or at least very easy to get BTA items vs a rare btc item (sword, shard, seal)
2. EVERYONE wants it. Everyone. I've had freakin favored souls with 8 str bid 4 million plat for a shard. And yes he crafted on that char, and never TRd to a melee class, only plays casters.
3. Everyone wants not only the shard and seal, but the swords too.. As it's a useful twink item for anyone planning to TR, even non melee classes. Or ones with maxxed gear, at least from 10-12 before you get your GS weps.
4. VoN6 epic is not easy for most players. Last one I ran: severla players exclaimed excitment that we beat it , stating they failed the last 5 runs they attempted.

the only epics id put above it in difficulty of acquisition are Desert Rares.. Tho the comparions is pretty much: rares - plain impossible.. sword - expect to run 100+ epic von6, a smattering of von1-2.

Sure the seal is one of the easier ones, that does very little towards making the item easier then other epics tho. Most players actually get there seals in von6, as very few ppl run von1-4, and the droprate for the seal in von6 is pretty low.

Bottom line is, it's a very hard item to get, and its power accurately matches that rarity.. While other epic two handers are also hard to get, some evne harder (Epic xumm), yet there power doesn't match the difficulty to get.

[oberon131313]

That effectively chains your leg to the game because every 3 days, your precious crystal will expire and disappear, and you'll have to farm for it all over again.

Do you live in some alternate timestream where time moves faster than the rest of us?

The crystal lasts 100 hours of logged in time once slotted.

[Krag]

Bottom line is, it's a very hard item to get, and its power accurately matches that rarity.. While other epic two handers are also hard to get, some evne harder (Epic xumm), yet there power doesn't match the difficulty to get.

QFE
Other than RoSS I can't think of any desert item to accurately reflect the rarity. It varies from "decent but nothing spectacular" (Xuum, Torc, Chaosblade, Marilith Chain, Bloodstone) to "OMG, I have pulled better random loot when level cap was 10".

[Wraith_Sarevok]

Do you live in some alternate timestream where time moves faster than the rest of us?

The crystal lasts 100 hours of logged in time once slotted.

I don't care.

It's a gimmick.

It's exactly like what they used to do in Diablo 2. Every 3 months or so, if you didn't log on to one of your characters, it was deleted without a second thought. All of your hard work was wiped by the company because you forgot to play. Same basic concept.

To be more clear, I was referring to game time. The crystal can probably last an average of 2-4 real-time weeks, depending on how long it takes to run a raid or epic each day. It's still not guaranteed that you'll be able to loot the exact SAME crystal within the exact SAME month. In fact, it's a very low chance. You can't expect other, average people, to get lucky and find one like you did, either. Thus, it's an unreliable DR breaker that I don't factor into any damage calculations or testing.

It's nice to have and fun to play around with, and it will definitely give you a leg up in DPS against Pit Fiends, but it's still unreliable to find and temporary. I stand by that position.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

If you ever try to craft that +5 HB silver of GLOB, it will have a minimum level of 25 under the crafting system we currently have. Not sure if you have a character that can meet that requirement. I do not.

If you do, I'm glad you can read between the lines.


A maximum enchantment level of +5 now appears on all standard craftable item blanks. This level determines how much power a given item can hold when adding magical effects through crafting. The items can have their maximum enchantment level increased by crafting Shards of Potential.

Recipes exist in all three schools of crafting to create “Shards of Potential” of various strengths that can be applied to a crafting blank to increase its maximum enchantment level. Higher plus Shards of Potential are significantly more expensive to create than lower plus Shards of Potential.

[...]

Numerous treasure mutations have had their enchantment values lowered.

Yes, yes I am glad that I can read between the lines. Thank you. :D

I'd just like to point out the power of the developer: How they can adjust enchantment levels to fit into the max lvl 20 cap. How they can put the word BETA onto a crafting system and generate feedback for future ideas.

Like I was trying to say before, it only makes sense to eventually allow us to craft up to +5 Holy Burst Silver of Greater Outsider Bane since you can construct the shards. Since the lootgen item appears in the game. Since their ultimate goal is to get F2P players to generate gear equivalent to what P2P players can grind for in epics/raids.