Does Your Kill Count ... Count?

[Zillee]

Just kinda interested if your kill count means something to you.

I've read the opinion in some threads that the kill count doesn't matter because it's a team effort and it only shows who got in the final blow. True enough.

But then there are other threads where players will write "blah blah blah and I can double the kill count of the next highest in the group etc" (especially when the topic is a matter of defending their class/build).

I'm sorta getting the feeling that everyone agrees that kill counts do not matter except when they get the highest kill count. And then it becomes very important.

I'll admit I like to be up there in the kill count, but then I have a fighter and see killing the mobs as her primary raison d'etre. If I'm not, then I like to think about why that is the case, taking in the context of the quest and other classes present. So answering my own question, yes, my kill count means something to me.

Over to you.

[Dandonk]

I'm sorta getting the feeling that everyone agrees that kill counts do not matter except when they get the highest kill count. And then it becomes very important.

Yes.

[FuzzyDuck81]

It can be an indicator of performance, especially in lower levels where enemies can be brought down in only a few hits & direct DPS weapons are more effective (i've frequently come top in kills on my WF battlecleric while still keeping the party healed up fine) but becomes less important at later levels where 1 member of the party may choose to go more of a crowd control/debuffing route through paralysers, stat damagers etc. to make it easier for the other party members in place of trying to only do dps to get the kill - again using myself as the example, i have a set of ML10 rr +1 paralysing PG handwraps on my monk & i'd use those since it makes life a lot easier overall, but means i only have a fraction of the damage output capability vs. my dps wraps (+4 true law bleeding icy burst, also rr with ML8).
Admittedly it's always nice to come top of the kills, especially with an unusual build or a character type that normally doesnt (RS cleric running deleras can do it easily for example, but in another quest they may come bottom), but it really isnt all that important so long as you're making a valid contribution.

[AMDarkwolf]

yes and no. If the healer (who was only healing) and caster(who was only ccing) don't show on the list no biggie.

if everyone has around 10ish kills among eachother. no.

if there's a beefy fighter with lots of hate gen and a buncha rogs, and the fighter falls back in kills.. no.


But if the rog eating all the agro has 100+ more than the fighters/barbs with him the whole time, yes.

Also the guy in the corner near the entrance who 'went to get a drink' has 0 kills at the end and hasn't moved... no :D

[Deathlos]

Doesnt really matter. But ppl still get big D Syndrom when their the top of the kill count.
i watch it always in intrest. joke around to other members about being top of the kill count and that they suck!
But overall, it means nothing unless nobody touches a mob thats already been damage... then the ranger wins since he hits everything 1st and thus is the only one thats allowed to kill it

[Dreamshifter]

I've heard that Miss Adventure likes it a lot when she tops the kill count, but in general, it doesn't matter, to a point. Especially not in a single quest.

But, it can be helpful for tracking trends over time, especially for a melee in a static group. If you are consistently outkilling people, and then someone starts passing you regularly, you know either you've done something to your character (taken off a set piece for your haggle item, maybe :D ), or they have.

But in a single quest, or in PUGs? Not much meaning at all. Well, unless you want to tease the Barbarian got being outkilled by both Miss Adventure and the Cleric. :p

[Astraghal]

It can be when comparing similar fighting styles, but because it's the last person to hit that gets the kill, it's often the monks or TWF'ers who will tend to pull ahead, regardless of overall DPS.

It's a rough indicator of how busy a player is, but starts to become counterproductive as many melee will attempt to pad their count by ignoring priority targets such as casters in favor of killing relatively harmless held trash mobs.

On the other hand you have the people to whom getting aggro is everything, even if it is based on not having aggro initially, or pumping their threat up with incite gear or through hate generating mechanics, rather than producing raw DPS.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I think about it maybe a bit too much.

The things I wonder is;
1. Assuming people aren't trying to get the killing, do all fighting styles/characters have an equal chance to get the killing blow proportionate to their DPS?
2. Do other people try to get the killing blow?
3. How often do other people avoid getting the killing blow (for whatever reason)?

Consider:
1. If you are doing some sort of damage that isn't straight DPS (vorpal, stat damagers etc) then usually you shouldn't go for the killing blow (if I have vorpals I try to hit all the mobs equally as you're doing more DPS if you are hitting higher HP mobs for the times that 20's drop).
2. Speed will have a greater affect on DPS in quests as the slow paladins/fighters have trouble keeping up with the faster moving characters who are doing DPS more often (less time moving). In raids this is irrelevant though. As for it's affect on kill counts often the slower moving characters will be around for the killing blow (so perhaps while they have similar kill counts they are in fact contributing less).
3. Characters with situational DPS (rogues) will play as opportunity allows. Assuming that they don't have the attributes to survive the full aggro of enemies their DPS will only be as strong as the opportunities that others can provide (CC through aggro control, spells or abilities).

Lately, I've been play a dex/wis totally gimp drow monk which I started as a flavour shortsword build to run with guildies. However, I've returned to it with the intention to get the PL and pimped him out with as much AC gear as I could find (hit 60 AC at level 13) and have been running him up. Even into Amrath I can blast through content when I'm paying attention (ran New Invasion on hard today and just got slowed down from a enervation/disintegrate combo) and earlier doing twilight vale on elite and there weren't many characters who could keep up in the kill counts (again, when I'm paying attention, I tend to pike if the opportunity presents itself). Here, in twilight vale elite/amrath hard or whatever, AC + Movement Speed = DPS. No need to wait for the healer, no need to even stay with the group (if there are other objectives that need to be done).

Thinking about it, the difference between strength based and dexterity based is about ~4 damage/AC either way. That equates to about 10-20 DPS loss for the benefit of taking 1/4 to 1/20th of the damage, it's like running with god mode on sometimes (ritual sacrifice elite was the best). Oh well, new experience for me and obviously isn't as relevant in epics. Tanking reavers fate on elite was cool too. It's probably my playstyle as well, I don't mind getting ship buffs, having the gear or swapping gear around to use a level 5 or 10 shield wand, the result is that I can play super aggressively and be very self sufficient.

Do kill counts matter? Yes, they are a measure of the amount of kills a character gets. Does the amount of kills that a character gets matter? Well, that depends ...

[justhavinfun]

Not in the least. Do I get extra xp for having the most kills, or do I take a hit on exp for having the least kills? No. The only thing that matters is the completion.

In many cases kill count leads to poor play style. I have noticed that people that tend to worry about kill count are the ones that tend to run off from the party alot in order to pad their count. These are also the people that believe that divines are heal only, arcanes are only CC and buffs, and rogues are only for traps. These are also the people that tend to be yelling for heals, haste, and other buffs when they have run off and are nowhere near the people that can help them. Kill count doesn't help a stone.

I for one would be happy if the kill count was removed from the game. It is only a tool useful to creating bragging rights IMO. I rarely look at it since all I care about is the bottom line (total xp earned).

[lazylaz]

As long as I beat Misadventure I'm happy. Otherwise it doesn't really prove anything.

And different quests can bring out the best in different classes so its not always consistent.

[licho]

I'm sorta getting the feeling that everyone agrees that kill counts do not matter except when they get the highest kill count. And then it becomes very important.


Thats it. You got it Sir!
Also i heard that each time you are on top of count, your epen grows a little.

I have similar bad experience with kill hounters, that they: concentrate on easy mobs, run forward before party is rebuffed, or try to solo part of dungeon comming back when the red is grey. Such pearson often reminds others that 'win' the killcount, tends to post the weapons, all own crits, and what they soloed. Generally quite annoying.

The peaople has tandency to believe in some virtual numbers, rather than feelings of teammates, it dosnt matter how big your number is, if after party others will not wish to group with you anymore.


As long as I beat Misadventure I'm happy. Otherwise it doesn't really prove anything.


Aww, good point. When i play some gimpy character, like Bard AA i sometimes check the kill count, just to make sure im better than Misadventures.

[Kovalas]

I'm sorta getting the feeling that everyone agrees that kill counts do not matter except when they get the highest kill count. And then it becomes very important.

This one works both ways, the players that never lead the kill count, always say that kill count means nothing.

Make of that what you will.

I would say that kill count importance depends on the characters class.

Kov

[gingie]

Killcount is mostly for chest thumping, and often used to rag on guildies and friends, especially if they lose to misadventure. Depending on the class and quest, it can be a useful tool to see how your build is doing, as long as you play your build well of course. In an outside quest my AA will be near the top on killcounts, since he can spot, hit and drop so many things before anyone else can engage. In a dungeon without many perches it will drop significantly, since he has to manage aggro a little more. My rogue however loves those narrow aisles and a big dumb barb or intimitank to run 10 feet ahead and get everythings attention for him. Put him in something containing mostly undead, and he may as well be swinging a spork, though.

[somenewnoob]

Only so I can prove to my mother that I'm not just piking my way through life.

[Midgavia]

Yes.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Only so I can prove to my mother that I'm not just piking my way through life.

...by leading the killcount? i cant help but think of Norman Bates at this point, it puts that film in a whole new light :)

[leadhead]

Its sort of a diagnostic indicator for me. If I am running my Bard...it matters if he IS toward the top of the list because somebody is slackin. My barb better be at the top of the list...if a Rogue beats me every now and then, that' s a good thing because that means I am doing a good job of standing up mobs for sneak attack.

[Edyit76]

most useless stat in the game. you got the last hit on a mob, good for you :D

[Missing_Minds]

But then there are other threads where players will write "blah blah blah and I can double the kill count of the next highest in the group etc" (especially when the topic is a matter of defending their class/build).

I'm sorta getting the feeling that everyone agrees that kill counts do not matter except when they get the highest kill count. And then it becomes very important.


If one is a rogue, and in a quest where they get sneak attack, I hope they can lead quiet honestly. If not it means their build sucks or someone else wasn't doing their job ot keep agro off the rogue.

Cavat: The game of vorpals, banishers, smiters, or disruptors. When everyone uses them, Kill count becomes an indicator of who got the most confirmed 20s, crits with save fails, or save fails.

Kill count is meaningless save when playing the "last hit" game.

[AZgreentea]

I always feel like the big man when I get top kill count, but its my understanding that its bugged. It dosent always record the kills. Still, I do use it to indicate how well I am doing, when I play a melee (non rogue) character.

[Synnestar35791]

According to topic question, No.
Kill counts are influenced by variables and team members, in a harmonious party, the goals are the completion, so if the mobs come down as a result of team-work, life's good and mission completes.

Selfish goals such as kill count can be comparitively done on an individual basis with a competitive grouping.

[atkbeast]

In one case I saw the kill count as a sign of shame. I had an epic failure at piking the Reavers Fate. :eek: My fighter had 12 of 33 kills in one run, 3 behind the TR sorc who was tanking at the time. :rolleyes:

[Standal]

My FVS has been beaten in quests by Miss Adventure. In those quests, it's been because the rest of the party was too squishy for me to be swinging away. Keeping everyone else alive took too much of my attention.

I've also led kill counts on my barb where I guess I was just kill stealing. I let the high AC toon grab aggro, then move in and help him DPS. Checked the XP pane about 3/4 through and I was tops by a lot, which kind of shocked me. Probably shouldn't have mentioned that to the party. That's when the guy I thought I was helping, accused me of stealing his kills.

[PopeJual]

I sometimes look at kill count to see if something seems especially "off".

If there is one person who is zooming ahead of the rest of the party, then I would hope that they are getting a majority of the kills. If they're zooming ahead of the rest of the party and just waking monsters up and triggering Dungeon Alert without actually killing the monsters, then they're just being stupid.

If there are 3 barbarians in the party and the kill count for those three is 150, 143 and 12, then I'd wonder what was wrong with the third barbarian.

If there is a barbarian and a ranger and the kill count is 150 vs. 12, then I'd be quite happy as long as I saw the Ranger paralyzing everything so that the Barbarian could run up and beat it down without taking any damage in return.

Sometimes, kill count can be useful to see if something particularly odd was happening.
Most of the time, it's just a way for people to stroke their own ego.

[Draccus]

Winning. Duh.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=279677

[Sarisa]

My opinion pretty much matches Atma's. It depends on the situation.

If someone is running a lot of hate gen, or intim, I expect rogues to top the list.

If I'm wearing my radiance guard and tossing around Holy Aura, I expect rogues to top the list.

In Coal Chamber, I expect any 17+ wizard/18+ sorc to top the list. It's custom made for Wail.

If an assassin is running around, I expect him or her to top the list, provided it's not in a Wail-fest quest. Then he or she should be solidly second.

If one of the rare well played AA's is in group lining up beautiful IPS Manyshots, I expect him or her to top the list.

If everyone, including the "healer" is swinging Vorpals, it doesn't matter since it's just a measure of who got the most confirmed 20's.

If a caster is spending almost all of their time CC'ing, I don't expect to see his or her name show up very high, but I most definitely acknowledge their contribution.

In an epic, and the "healer" and caster are swinging "woo-woo" sticks, kill counts don't matter as long as everything is CC'ed, dies appropriately, and everyone stays alive.

If it's a low level quest, and a twinked out Barb with a Carnifex, Charged Gauntlets, Barb past life, and the like is running around, I expect him or her to top the list too.

Sometimes, you can judge how much someone is contributing. Other times, it's just a matter of luck of the dice.

[elujin]

doesn't matter realy overall if you get 50 and the rest 5 then there is a problem and you can rightfully think your dps is better

but on a paladin you can dps spike last hits with smites stealing all the kills and gimping your smites ;)

[Claymorep]

Doesn't matter, but when I group with someone and that guy start to say: Hey look at me, look at me! I have 5 kills on 10 total. I start to use exalted smite at end instead of at the start of a beating mob and... hop! surprise! At the end of the quest I end as top killer even in a non evil outsider base quest with 2 barbarians.

Does this matter? Absolotely no! But at least they start to look something else instead of their kill count and next quest the party goes better.

This is a party mmo, not a list of top uber killers. If you want this there's a lot of other stupid games that You can play.

[Yuesu]

NO! your kill count doesn't matter to me... EVER! :)

[grodon9999]

Stupid people use kill count as a measure of DPS. That's about it.

[Shamurai]

My 2 cents, on this... My first life paladin was pretty gimped. I had horrible stat allocation, bad feat selection, no gear, and before the forums NO CLUE. I never "went for the last hit" or "exploited my smites" I just did what I thought I needed to, or what I was told to do... Now back then my kill count was OFTEN exceeded by the HEALBOT. Which was Okay, because I rarely died and must have been considered a contributer because I had little problem getting into over 100+ raids with member of the "uber guilds".\

On my second life, I had studied, I had prepared and made a much better Pally... I had better gear, I was much more self reliant, my gamesmanship had increased. I still never went for the last hit, I sought the proper targets etc... and my kill count well was often top echelon. I know for a FACT I was dealing more DPS than I had in the past for many reasons. Do I use kill count to see if I am more LEET than someone else... No (well not in any public sense). But, it does give me some indication of my contributions. I DO WISH we had a "private" view of damage dealt (just mine not everyone elses) and other stats at quest end soI could rate my performance better and test improvements.

[Gkar]

I sometimes look at kill count to see if something seems especially "off".

If there is one person who is zooming ahead of the rest of the party, then I would hope that they are getting a majority of the kills. If they're zooming ahead of the rest of the party and just waking monsters up and triggering Dungeon Alert without actually killing the monsters, then they're just being stupid.

If there are 3 barbarians in the party and the kill count for those three is 150, 143 and 12, then I'd wonder what was wrong with the third barbarian.

If there is a barbarian and a ranger and the kill count is 150 vs. 12, then I'd be quite happy as long as I saw the Ranger paralyzing everything so that the Barbarian could run up and beat it down without taking any damage in return.

Sometimes, kill count can be useful to see if something particularly odd was happening.
Most of the time, it's just a way for people to stroke their own ego.

Yup, that's how I use it as well. Both on myself and others. For example if I see my kill count is 10 on a barb while the other barb is at 90, I scratch my head and try to figure out if maybe I'm using the wrong weapons or doing something wrong. Situation reversed, I have the same quesiton about the other barb.

[Cam_Neely]

Ya I watch it, I'll admit (unlike some other closet cases :p ) it.

My main is a barb. I build him to do DPS. I try to get on each guy first, I try to have action boosts going as must as possible. I try to switch weapons on the run, I make sure I have haste and rage posts going if no buffer. I try to get the killing blow each and every time.

On my Bard I make fun of others if I beat their kill count. Then I tell them 10% of their kills are mine due to song dmg ;) .

On my Cleric in some content (helllllllo Delera) I do the same, while keeping the group on it toes (on your toes mean you have to be standing too). Fact of the matter is, DPS is important, and every class can do it. (yes Im looking at you mr cleric not hitting the portal).

Does Kill Count calculate DPS? no, not even close. But its fun:)

[Ivid]

I'd argue, but holding my belly from laughing too hard about it, that the only thing that really counts is... how many Kobold Prayer Beads you've accumulated. My biggest gripe is that Kobold Prayer Beads do not come in different colors - like M&M's... Kibbles or Bits. That's not to say that you'd want to eat them, if they did.

[Nysrock]

Yup, that's how I use it as well. Both on myself and others. For example if I see my kill count is 10 on a barb while the other barb is at 90, I scratch my head and try to figure out if maybe I'm using the wrong weapons or doing something wrong. Situation reversed, I have the same question about the other barb.

I've noticed that whoever attacks first usually doesn't get the kill. Example: Running Madstone Crater and attacking the Minotaurs with my Tempest Ranger. Now I can get the first few hits in and take it down to 25% or less health and about that time another melee will attack while there is a pause in my attack chain and kill it. I found that if I let the other melees start the attack and just swing a split second after they do that more then likely I would get the kill during their pause.

Or your fighting something and have it almost dead and THEN the caster decides to target it for the final blow.

So count really doesn't matter as it all depends on the last hit. Maybe if they changed it to who did the most damage then it might mean a little more.

[Chai]

Kill count? Whats that?

The well rehearsed responses are that it means nothing when not leading and Im more DPS than everyone when leading.

I feel there are way too many ways to contribute to a group other than raw DPS that kill count is not relevant, in either case.

[SableShadow]

Not everyone comes to the forums, not everyone can do the math on damage.

It's always been that way.

If your class has a reputation for being "meh", leading kill counts (or at least placing) are pretty much the only way to get these people to change their minds (aside from soloing something down while they watch).

It is what it is...personally, I'd rather they take it out or toss in other stats.

[Yagi]

It CAN mean something but usually it just means last hit or somebody got bats spawned on them. I dont really care about it, I can see what people are doing and what they are capable of, and if somebody cant see what I am doing and what I am capable of, then I dont care about their opinion anyways.

Oh and I almost always top it on most of my characters from pure divines to buzzsaws, I play very aggresively so no thats not sour grapes.

Some of the most valuable teamates I have ever had barely got any last hits in. I've literally outkilled people well over a 100:1 ratio who I have no problem admiting play on a level that I have not yet reached.

Although I admit that when I am on first lifers I DO like burying tr's that brag too much. I dont say anything, I just do it and know that they know and smile a bit when they ragequit after the run. Those types usually are not actually all that good so its not a huge accomplishment or anything, just a bit of fun.

[Darkrok]

Killcount is mostly for chest thumping, and often used to rag on guildies and friends, especially if they lose to misadventure

EXACTLY! And as such it is the most important stat in the game because anything that allows you to rag on your guildies is a great thing. :)

My favorite kill count story is when our guild sent 2 or 3 arcane archers in to their first quest on their aa life with one of our best dps players. They spent the entire quest sniping every kill he was about to get with their lightningII bows to make sure that he was running neck-and-neck with misadventure. Almost every kill was punctuated by a thunderclap. I wasn't one of the AA's but I think they had to be coordinating manyshot in tells it was so reliable. By the end of the quest he actually spat his beer out in frustration. Great night! :)

[cforce]

Looking at your kill count in *one* quest -- basically meaningless.

Looking at your kill count across *lots* of quests, with different parties: very meaningful.

Look, if your Barb gets outkilled 2-to-1 by some Ranger in one quest, it's probably a fluke, or a player who was trying to game the kill count.

If your Barb is behind the kill count leader by 50% in every quest you run -- guess what, you're a gimp!

If you're always at or near the top of the kill count -- how sweet, you're l33t. You can put your awesomeness in your bio.

Also, there seems to be a "math myth" that faster attackers tend to get higher kill counts, which just isn't the case. Two guys attacking the same mob will have probability of "getting the kill" proportional to their DPS, THF, TWF, whatever.

[jwdaniels]

The only kill count that means much of anything is the one at the bottom of the exp pane where it shows how many kills the quest got on the party members.

[Uska]

I only pay attention to the total for the bonus xp I do get upet a little if I am doing most of damage to mobs and some little twit is doing the killing blow and then bragging about his having killed the most and the rest of us are slackers, Usually end up squelching the twit

[varusso]

Just kinda interested if your kill count means something to you.

I've read the opinion in some threads that the kill count doesn't matter because it's a team effort and it only shows who got in the final blow. True enough.

But then there are other threads where players will write "blah blah blah and I can double the kill count of the next highest in the group etc" (especially when the topic is a matter of defending their class/build).

I'm sorta getting the feeling that everyone agrees that kill counts do not matter except when they get the highest kill count. And then it becomes very important.

I'll admit I like to be up there in the kill count, but then I have a fighter and see killing the mobs as her primary raison d'etre. If I'm not, then I like to think about why that is the case, taking in the context of the quest and other classes present. So answering my own question, yes, my kill count means something to me.

Over to you.

Kill count is meaningless. Lets take some examples:
(1) Barbarian, one of the preeminent zerg classes of the game, right? Drink a haste pot, drink a rage pot, rage up, and go. A good zerger is self-healing, so lots of HP pots being drunk as well. Since he zerged out in front of everyone, he is getting 'legitimate' kills. In other words, he isnt just finishing off other players' kills; he is doing al lthe damage to the mobs he is killing. As long as he has rage/haste/HP pots he is gtg and can keep killing.
(2) Wiz or sorc with nukes, either WF or PM for self healing. Buff up, throw your haste, run around in front of everyone with max/emp + potency and just nuke everything to death. This player is also getting 'legitimate' kills, because they are doing all of the damage. Then the mage runs out of SP ... and they're done. Not because their build is inferior or their skill is less; simply because THEIR damage is not 'free'. Even with SLAs, you eventually run out of SP, and your SP pots cost WAY more than all of the barbarians pots combined. Not to mention they cant be bought at any vendor. Make SP pots as easy to get as the others, and the mage will out kill the barb. Why? cos the mage deals in several hundred points of damage to everything in the room at one time. The barbarian deals in a couple hundred to a few at a time or even one at a time.

Then of course you have the players who actually work as a team. The healer is healing, the sword n board is intimitanking and shield blocking. Meanwhile, the rogue, barbarian, ranger, whatever, are wailing on all the mobs, getting all the kills, and the mage is rage/hasting, ensuring the melee DPS are doing the most they can, as well as dropping AOEs on the mobs that are locked on the tank to help soften them up faster, The healer is keeping the tank up, DVing the mage, spot healing the DPS toons when they draw aggro. Who actually contributed the most to the success of that party? How does kill count reflect the efforts of the healer and the tank? Or the extra damage done via the rage/haste? Or the fact that the mage would have run otu of Sp on that fight if the cleric hadnt shot him some DVs? Or the Firewall that did 90% of the damage to the mobs, which were then cleave/sneak attack, etc. for the last bit, giving the melees the kill?

Even trying to turn it into 'who did the most ACTUAL DPS' is still fail, for the same reasons. A dead Barb deals no damage. A rogue deals significantly less damage if they dont get sneak attack (see the intimitank). A nuker mage that runs out of SP nuking becomes a mediocre (at best) melee.

There are way too many variables in any given fight, with team-oriented party, to even think about basing it on only kill count. BTW, if you solo a quest, you get ALL of the kills. Since you can solo most quests with nearly any toon, how does kill count in any way actually make any difference? Its nice to see fat numbers next to your name in the list, but the folks who brag about how high their kill counts are in a group -- i just want to drop their stone in a pit somewhere.

[varusso]

I only pay attention to the total for the bonus xp I do get upet a little if I am doing most of damage to mobs and some little twit is doing the killing blow and then bragging about his having killed the most and the rest of us are slackers, Usually end up squelching the twit

This ^^

[Verdex]

I only am impressed by kill count when it is completely true:

I.E.
Playing a wizard i use alot of AOE an purposely weaken enemies to low HP then let the fighters finish them off with low risk to themselves.

BUT
I have a friend i will play with and dont bother covering her, theres not need and at the end of every dungeon it looks something like this

Friend 47
Me 1
player1 2
player2 5
player3 8
player4 0

Shes clearly doing something they arent and its constant! When everyone is dead she clears the room SOLO grabs all the stones etc... her kill count, counts

[Sweyn]

When you look at it by a "Case-by-case" senario, yes, it is only whoever gets the last kill. It doesn't matter. However, when you look at the big picture, where hundreds of mobs are killed, then yes it does matter and it does reflect on your performance. If 150 mobs are killed total, Melee A killed 120, Melee B killed 30, then you can very accuratly assume melee A is


Doing most of the work
Better geared
Better skilled player


This is because the probability of melee B doing all of the work and melee A just getting the one last hit on 120 mobs is next to 0%. You can therefore rule it out. While you cannot say 100% Melee A is "The better melee," you can will 99.9% accuracy when you look at the big picture instead of a Case-by-case basis.

[suszterpatt]

I'm sorta getting the feeling that everyone agrees that kill counts do not matter except when they get the highest kill count. And then it becomes very important.
First, this is probably true for a lot of people.

Second, this depends entirely on your role. Surely nobody expects the healer to rack up kills left right and center, but a Barbarian who can't kill things is due for a friendly meeting with the HR deptartment.

Third, even then, whether kill count means anything can be very situational. If all the dps characters in the party are fighter types, it's somewhat indicative of the DPS of the individuals. If you have an Assassin (or someone using dual vorpals) in the party, they have a good chance at getting the most kills. However, if the mobs only have 200 HP each, then those instakills essentially deal 100-200 damage only, whereas against tougher foes the significance of an instakill is greater. There have been several occasions in VoD when everyone else had 1-3 kills and my Assassin had 10+, most of them the devils who succumbed to assassinate or auto-vorpal just seconds after spawning. Then there are Coal chamber runs where the caster has double the killcount than anyone else due to banishes, in which case his dominance is unquestionable.


...it's complicated.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

It matters only when I get the highest. :p

Actually, I seldom look at it.
But most of my chars do not get the high kill count often.

One reason is that I do not build for max DPS. I build (and equip) for survivability, and versitility. Which I find more fun.

A second reason is my style of play.
I find that in many groups, I do not even see an attack roll in most fights, because someone else is running faster than I am, and killing things before I get there. (or before my lag catches up and actually lets me get an attack roll in. :( )

Add that I play a lot of Rgrs, who use paralysing bows quite often.

And my kill count usually is on the low side.




But just because someone else runs faster than you and kils everything before you get to it, does not mean anything.

If someone is contributing in a some way that does less DPS and kills, it does not mean anything.






But that doesn't keep me from gloating about it when I play my Rogue. :D

[division]

let me throw in another factor that i haven't heard mentioned yet. That is, the fact that any melee wielding two weapons are likely to have a higher kill counter than any THFing toon if they are hitting every mob the THF is. that is because that they are hitting with 2 weapons and therefore have almost twice(actually 1.8times) the chance to land any killing blow than a single weapon user.

[SableShadow]

let me throw in another factor that i haven't heard mentioned yet. That is, the fact that any melee wielding two weapons are likely to have a higher kill counter than any THFing toon if they are hitting every mob the THF is. that is because that they are hitting with 2 weapons and therefore have almost twice(actually 1.8times) the chance to land any killing blow than a single weapon user.

You've never run with a twitching-THF fighter before?

[salmag]

Kill count means nothing.

Breakables count, however... hmmmm :rolleyes:

The ONLY stat that really matters is the one that says "Quest Completed" :p

[Llewndyn]

Just kinda interested if your kill count means something to you.

I've read the opinion in some threads that the kill count doesn't matter because it's a team effort and it only shows who got in the final blow. True enough.

But then there are other threads where players will write "blah blah blah and I can double the kill count of the next highest in the group etc" (especially when the topic is a matter of defending their class/build).

I'm sorta getting the feeling that everyone agrees that kill counts do not matter except when they get the highest kill count. And then it becomes very important.

I'll admit I like to be up there in the kill count, but then I have a fighter and see killing the mobs as her primary raison d'etre. If I'm not, then I like to think about why that is the case, taking in the context of the quest and other classes present. So answering my own question, yes, my kill count means something to me.

Over to you.

...matters different amounts in different situations. Allow me to expand on that point:

AS A SILENCER -
Barb: *posts unsolicited gear to show how uber he is* I am the tank. Stay back and bask in my glory
Sorc (me): OK *Proceeds to kill everything while barb is busy building up clicky overdose to take out every mob*
Barb:....

AS A BUILD BENCHMARK -
Me (2 mnk\ 7 wiz\ 6 bard): Yay someone forgot to MyDDO me before letting me into the group!
Leader: Dangit, oh well, sorry guys, we will technically be 5 ma-
DM: You have slain Suulomades, your gimped build thus dominating while the rest of the group argued over buffs. U R TEH HAXX0RZ!

AS AN APHRODISIAC -
Me: Hey baby see that kill count? I'm just as dominant in....OTHER situations...
other toon: I've told you 4 times, I'm a dude, and also your uncle
Me: Does this mean you're aroused?

AS FORUM FODDER -
Sorc (after firewalling way COMPLETELY through Temple of Vol): Yeah! See that kill count?
other 5 members who essentially spent whole mission keeping said sorc alive from the 2 monsters who lived past FW: "Yay."

There are others, but I think you get my point. On my rogue, I never bothered even LOOKING at kill count, because I knew I was probably not even on it, much less leading it, until that first Bastion of Power run. It was a thing of beauty, my lithe halfling muscles pulled taut and bulging under my supple DT vestments, my femullet of uber flowing in the breeze, Orthons dropping faster than my 401K as I assassinated so fast most of the group hadn't even caught up...in that moment, kill count meant everything, mostly because that was the only time I led kill count (I'm not that good of a player, spend most of my time typing dirty limmericks into party chat).

I think it's like that for a lot of people, but here's how I see it. You wouldn't be leading kill count if someone wasn't keeping you healed. If there's no healer, you wouldn't be leading kill count if the caster was not using CC or giving you buffs or taking out trash. If it's all melee, then you're leading kill count because they are all piking. If you are soloing, you are leading kill count because the mission is 5 levels beneath you. Just like I told myself when I led kill count after typing in guild chat how uber I was (it was a guild run)....get over yourself. 9 times out of 10 someone had to kill the baddie, and that person more often than not just happened to be you. In the grand scheme of things, it means nothing.

[cforce]

let me throw in another factor that i haven't heard mentioned yet. That is, the fact that any melee wielding two weapons are likely to have a higher kill counter than any THFing toon if they are hitting every mob the THF is. that is because that they are hitting with 2 weapons and therefore have almost twice(actually 1.8times) the chance to land any killing blow than a single weapon user.

It hasn't been mentioned because it isn't true. The probability of landing the killing blow *is* proportional to DPS, not to attacks/second.

I've laid out the math proof for this on the forums before -- I'll see if I can find the link.

[division]

You've never run with a twitching-THF fighter before?

very rarely. but then, i PUG alot, lol

[cforce]

Here are a bunch of very silly arguments that people seem to make over and over again to try to convince people not to look at kill counts.

Some players may steal kills, therefore all kill counts are meaningless.
You are wrong because: #5 (http://www.packet****.co.uk/weblog/archives/00000053.htm)
Er, no. Some players (arcanes, archers are the easiest to “snipe” with) might sometimes try to game the kill count. That means that sometimes you’ll be with a PuG, see a much lower kill count than usual, and should ignore it. It doesn’t mean you should ignore *all* of your kill counts. When they’re similar 80% of the time, you can probably figure out when someone’s kill stealing.

Not all party members contribute value through DPS, therefore kill counts are meaningless.
You are wrong because: #16 (http://www.packet****.co.uk/weblog/archives/00000053.htm)
This would be a great counter-argument to the statement “Kill Counts are the best measure of party value.” As far as I know, I’ve never seen anyone make that statement. Kill counts are a useful indicator for DPS, but everyone with a brain understands that DPS is not the only important party contribution.

The person who gets the kill is random, therefore kill counts are random, and meaningless.
You are wrong because: #11 (http://www.packet****.co.uk/weblog/archives/00000053.htm)
Getting the kill is random, but the probability of getting the kill is proportional to your DPS rate vs. the DPS rate of everyone else attacking the mob at the time of its death. This means, over *multiple* kills, the kill distribution will get closer and closer to the *actual* DPS ratio. The more kills get racked up, the more meaningful the count is.

[division]

It hasn't been mentioned because it isn't true. The probability of landing the killing blow *is* proportional to DPS, not to attacks/second.

I've laid out the math proof for this on the forums before -- I'll see if I can find the link.

now that you say this, i understand how it is probably correct. However, how does this flesh out when the THF, and the TWF are the same, or very close in DPS. It seems like if they DPS was the same, then the TWF would then have more of a chance of landing a killing blow because of 2 weapons.

[Thrudh]

This one works both ways, the players that never lead the kill count, always say that kill count means nothing.

I lead the kill count all the time... Because I'm playing TRs with GS in PUGs...

ALL the time... And it means nothing... absolutely nothing...

[SableShadow]

now that you say this, i understand how it is probably correct. However, how does this flesh out when the THF, and the TWF are the same, or very close in DPS. It seems like if they DPS was the same, then the TWF would then have more of a chance of landing a killing blow because of 2 weapons.

Damage per Second != Damage per Swing

Or do you mean something else here?

[k1ngp1n]

Here are a bunch of very silly arguments that people seem to make over and over again to try to convince people not to look at kill counts.

Some players may steal kills, therefore all kill counts are meaningless.
You are wrong because: #5 (http://www.packet****.co.uk/weblog/archives/00000053.htm)
Er, no. Some players (arcanes, archers are the easiest to “snipe” with) might sometimes try to game the kill count. That means that sometimes you’ll be with a PuG, see a much lower kill count than usual, and should ignore it. It doesn’t mean you should ignore *all* of your kill counts. When they’re similar 80% of the time, you can probably figure out when someone’s kill stealing.

Not all party members contribute value through DPS, therefore kill counts are meaningless.
You are wrong because: #16 (http://www.packet****.co.uk/weblog/archives/00000053.htm)
This would be a great counter-argument to the statement “Kill Counts are the best measure of party value.” As far as I know, I’ve never seen anyone make that statement. Kill counts are a useful indicator for DPS, but everyone with a brain understands that DPS is not the only important party contribution.

The person who gets the kill is random, therefore kill counts are random, and meaningless.
You are wrong because: #11 (http://www.packet****.co.uk/weblog/archives/00000053.htm)
Getting the kill is random, but the probability of getting the kill is proportional to your DPS rate vs. the DPS rate of everyone else attacking the mob at the time of its death. This means, over *multiple* kills, the kill distribution will get closer and closer to the *actual* DPS ratio. The more kills get racked up, the more meaningful the count is.

This. Kill count is actually statistically meaningful, but not authoritative (until high kill counts).

I've never seen a gimp/piker rock the kill score, and I've never seen a pro get shut out on the board. In fact, I've seen a pretty close correlation between the kill count and overall group contribution to damage output.

If you are way low on the killboard, I'd venture a pretty solid guess that your damage output is definitively lower than the rest of the group. Maybe its time to turn power attack on.

Ooops.

[k1ngp1n]

now that you say this, i understand how it is probably correct. However, how does this flesh out when the THF, and the TWF are the same, or very close in DPS. It seems like if they DPS was the same, then the TWF would then have more of a chance of landing a killing blow because of 2 weapons.

If their DPS were the same, they have the same chance of landing the killing blow. The THF might do it in one swing, and the TWF takes two, but they have the same chance over time.

[steelblueskies]

you are forgetting to also account for DEATH COUNT. being high in one and low in the other is probably good.
being twice as high in kills as the combined sum of the remaining party members, while having the lowest death count probably means you are pointing to it in a fit of rage. distributions like 120 kills 0 deaths on one person, combined with 5k1d, 30k4d, 0k6d, and a hireling healer run by someone else possessing 1 kill and 0 deaths...

it isn't important all by itself unless theres a stated competition going in.

after all someone could be griefing the only melee in the party by finger of deathing every mob he runs up to, or mass suggesting/charming and only dismissing when ready to kill personally. or you could have other forms of idiocy in group. people zerging off left and right and dragging armies back without word or warning or just dying repeatedly.

you usually have a good idea when someone's being "that guy" in party. then all it typically takes is them making commentary on how excellent and wonderful they are, and suddenly pointing out the numerical flaws in their worldview takes on a whole new temporary importance.

at least that's the way i reason it out when i see it happen most often.

then there are those times when its a friendly legolas and gimli situation in party, fighting between two to see who comes out ahead, getting to a tie, and fighting for the actual kill on the last boss or monster in a quest. those are actually kind of fun so long as noone starts griefing tactics over simply trying to deal death harder through main force of will.

has other important uses too. like standing on the puzzle side of von 5 killing respawns for conquest (at level) and getting a good sense for exactly how many greatswords you are going to break over the mobs before you get done. you can also use it for performance adjustment in more regular and static groups. if you are killing yourself for max kills and running low on resources before the first shrine, then change strategy, get less kills and have no issue, and noone else sees a difference other then numbers, much of what you were doing in method A was wasted effort.

[Canopenner]

I watch kill counts...Can be interesting. Doesnt really MEAN a thing tho.

I would much rather see dps.
healed HP
monter "incap" field that would count holds hypnos commands trips stuns and the like.

death count counts.

Stat tracking can be lots of fun.

[Terdfergeson]

Breakables FTW!

[cforce]

The probability of landing the killing blow *is* proportional to DPS, not to attacks/second.

I've laid out the math proof for this on the forums before -- I'll see if I can find the link.

Just re-read my last explanation, and I think I can lay it out better, so I’m just going to re-write it.

Let’s start with the assumptions that:
- We have two characters with *identical* dps, but one of which gets in two 50-point hits for each 100-point hit the other does. (Simplified TWF vs. THF).
- The two characters always start attacking at *exactly* the same time. OK, the server won’t let it be exactly, but let’s say that it’s THF followed a millisecond later by TWF.
- The TWF character has a better chance to get the kill. (Yes, this is what we’re trying to disprove.)

The points of damage dealt to the mob look like this:

Time 0: points 1-100 dealt by THF
Time 0.001: points 101-150 dealt by TWF
Time 0.002: points 151-200 dealt by TWF
Time 1: points 201-300 dealt by THF
Time 1.001: points 301-350 dealt by TWF
Time 1.002: points 351-400 dealt by TWF
Time 2: points 401-500 dealt by THF
etc…

The kill goes to the guy when the points of damage dealt so far *includes* the starting hit point total of the mob. So, for mobs whose hit points are between 1 and 100, the THF gets it. 101 and 200, the TWF gets it. 201 and 300, the THF gets it. Etc. If we assuming the TWF character has a better chance to get the kill, we can conclude that mobs with hit points in the “odd hundreds” of total hit points are more common than mobs in the “even hundreds” of total hit points. Since this claim is obviously false, it shows that the premise, “The TWF character has a better chance to get the kill,” also can’t be true.

But that was a very specific, synchronized case. Let’s make it more like “real DDO”. One character always gets a head start, and the second character starts a *random* amount of time afterwards. We’ll call the time the second person starts “Time 0”. At that point, the mob has some random amount of hit points *left*. From that Time 0, the sequence of damage dealt goes just as before:

Time 0: points 1-100 dealt by THF
Time 0 < n < 1: points 101-150 dealt by TWF
Time 0 < n < 1: points 151-200 dealt by TWF
Time 1: points 201-300 dealt by THF
Time 1 < n < 2: points 301-350 dealt by TWF
Time 1 < n < 2: points 351-400 dealt by TWF
Time 2: points 401-500 dealt by THF
etc…

Now, whoever gets the kill is whoever owns the range where the *remaining* hit point total lies when the second person joined in (the hit points left at Time 0). If we assume that the TWF player is getting more kills, we would be forced to conclude that he somehow “knows how to start attacking when there is an odd-hundred number of hit points *left* on the mob. I’m pretty sure this is impossible to do, showing again that our assumption that the TWF player has a higher chance must be incorrect.

It’s fairly trivial to use this same framework to show that, assuming a random amount of time between when the first person starts attacking and the second person starts attacking, the probably of each landing the killing blow is exactly proportional to their damage per second, regardless of their damage per swing or swing speed – but I’ll leave that step as an exercise for the reader.

[Cardtrick]

First off: cforce is absolutely right, your kill count is roughly proportional to your DPS, ignoring the occasional times when someone is deliberately padding their kill count by moving around and only trying to strike the killing blows. TWF/THF, attack speed, whatever -- it doesn't matter. If everyone is just trying to kill enemies, then kill count is proportional to damage.

Does that mean that it matters? Nah, not really, except in certain cases. Certainly you can't judge much by looking at one person's kill count in one quest you run with them.

As others have said, though, overall trends in kill counts -- which you usually can't observe except for your own character, unless you're in a static group or small guild -- do matter. If you have a rogue or barbarian and you're not leading the kill count (or close to it) almost all the time, then there's a problem with your build or your gear -- your primary role usually is DPS, and you should be good at it. For other classes, it depends on your build. A monk focused on disabling and crowd control shouldn't be concerned with their kill count (and I certainly prefer running with this type of monk, personally); whereas a monk focused strictly on DPS should be just as concerned about a low kill count as a barb or rogue.

Personally, I do check my kill count on most quests. I don't brag about it. But my main character is a high strength rogue/fighter -- when I'm not in the lead on kill count, I can tell I'm either running with an exceptional group or I'm doing something wrong. So it's a useful tool for me.

But honestly, the main reason I'm glad we have the kill counter is that it can help make certain extremely boring quests a bit more fun -- usually timed, easy ones. I like to set myself certain personal goals. I try to have at least half the total kills when I run Weapons Shipment or Devil's Assault Elite, for instance -- it's the only thing that makes those quests entertaining (except for running with a fun group of people). I don't tell people I'm trying to do that, or brag about it afterwards, but honestly that kind of the thing is the biggest reason I like being able to see the kill count.

The only time I really judge someone negatively on kill count is in a Shroud part 1 when it seems like there're too many trash mobs, and I check the kill counts to find that the person assigned to clearing trash has fewer kills than some of the portal-beating melees.

[hityawithastick]

I like to either have 3 kills, or more kills than any of the melees. Then I make fun of them. Or I'm very quiet.

[phalaeo]

It only counts when my melee Cleric is leading kills. :p

[dunklezhan]

All my characters are on first life and none have any raid or top end gear. So if there's a TR in the group with that kind of gear I don't worry about my kill count at all, except on my rogue, where this philosophy is paramount (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=279677)XD

Note - I don't worry about it. That doesn't mean I don't check it, if I'm supposed to be a high damage character. Its a good yardstick, nothing more.

The only time kill count really matters to me is if death count is greater than it, but I don't have any truly 'support-only' characters, if I did I probably wouldn't worry about that either :)

[Shamurai]

I think if I toon is good enough to notice when a mob is ready for the "final hit" enough every time to to coup de grace him, then let him lead the kill count... In the fury of battle I am just mashing buttons in a specfic sequence on my pally anyways, and really can't be bothered to see if one mob is closer to death then another. I just say "kill em all, let the Gods sort 'em out" after.

[centuar1963]

[QUOTE=Zillee;3739044]Just kinda interested if your kill count means something to you.

It doesnt mean anything to me but its nice when someone else notices...... example: After TR-ing into a barb i was in deleras at low level with decent gear farming xp with a full zerg group... 1/2 through the second run the leader say "new tactic, stand behind Pope and pretent to swing".... it was nice to know I was in there and with proper gear and build had 80% of the kills..... So no, buts its nice to know.... After I TR again im hitting Deleras and my goal is 100% of the kills.... ARGGGGhh!!!!!........ 1/4 Orc rage..... ( Mom was the 1/2 orc ) Dad was drunk....

[Bobthesponge]

I recall back in the Good Old Days when DDO was shiny and new and GH was endgame content the preferred method for completing Tor was to have a caster spam the giants with flesh to stone and everyone else would beat on the resulting statues.

So I am running with this barbarian who can't shut up about how uber his build is. I am on my caster getting giants stoned and he complains about how I am piking my way through the quest because I don't have any kills and he is in the 40s (or whatever).

Kill count = 0 => Piker.

Immediate add to my friend list.

[Duagrim]

Kill counts are helpful to melees as an aid to determining how effective you are over the course of 3-4 runs. One run of anything is pretty meaningless, it's just noise. Over an evening's play, however, checking the count can give you an idea of how effective you are.

Doesn't mean squat for non-melees, though, and any barb or fighter (my 2 fave classes, BTW) who rags on a bard or rogue about kill numbers is welcome to open his own locked chests and buff himself. It's just idiotic.

[Postumus]

Here, in twilight vale elite/amrath hard or whatever, AC + Movement Speed = DPS. No need to wait for the healer, no need to even stay with the group (if there are other objectives that need to be done).




I think this is why Monks simply destroy content at lower levels. It's like fighting pinatas and paper tigers.


I recently rolled up an AC Paladin and even though the AC is equivalent, or sometimes higher than my monk, the monk still takes less damage at the same levels b/c the movement/attack speed is so much higher.

[Stitch78]

Its sort of a diagnostic indicator for me. If I am running my Bard...it matters if he IS toward the top of the list because somebody is slackin.


I think about it maybe a bit too much...[SNIP] (again, when I'm paying attention, I tend to pike if the opportunity presents itself).

Wax makes me giggle.

Kill count correlates (imperfectly) to DPS. It is useful. It is probably more useful to know if someone on an XP run isn't breaking anything. Still, it is informative.

[elixer1]

It hasn't been mentioned because it isn't true. The probability of landing the killing blow *is* proportional to DPS, not to attacks/second.

I've laid out the math proof for this on the forums before -- I'll see if I can find the link.

I'd like to see that math, because I agree with Division.

Obviously it is situational, but I often see the APS out killing the DPS, including in my own varied toons.

[kernal42]

It can be when comparing similar fighting styles, but because it's the last person to hit that gets the kill, it's often the monks or TWF'ers who will tend to pull ahead, regardless of overall DPS.


This is false for multiple reasons. You should consider rethinking your stance.

Re: OP.
Kill count is an imperfect indicator of relative dps against trash. That is all. There are many more effective ways to contribute to a party than dps against trash, so kill count is absolutely not a measure of contribution (but we already knew that).

Cheers,
Kernal

[kernal42]

Obviously it is situational, but I often see the APS out killing the DPS, including in my own varied toons.

This will be true when wielding vorpals or against low-hp mobs (ie, mobs which die of one hit from a high APS, low DPS toon).

Otherwise, kill count approximates relative dps.

-Kernal

[SaneDitto]

Nah.

I treat it as a friendly competition, especially if there are other DPS machines around fighting for first place, but I try not to let it get in the way of teamwork. I prefer a completed quest over any number of kill counts.

[danotmano1998]

Kill count is only as important as you make it.
(And of course, as important the others in your party make it.)

If nobody cares, then it doesn't matter.
If you're in a competition for whatever reason, then it does.
If everyone cares and its a big deal, then it's a big deal.

[jcTharin]

i use it to guess how well the other melees are doing. It dosen't show how the effectiveness of things other than DPS but i can see those effects when fighting. i can see CC and me being healed and stuff, but im not watching the other melee, im busy killing stuff myself. so its good for comparing people who are focusing on DPS.

If i did not get more kills than everyone else combined then it was a better than average pug.

if the rogue got one tenth of the kills even though i have been spamming intimidate for him, then something is wrong. same thing for any fighter that is carrying a shield. (only if they are not killing anything)

if the bard is out doing the barb by a significant amount. something is wrong.

if the guy with the weird looking build is utterly dominating the quest I'm gonna ask him about his build and try to learn something.

if a squishy as hell whatever is in the party and says "im pure DPS" after dying repeatedly i will mock him for being unable to kill anything when dead and use the kill count as proof. a line similar to "DPS = 0 when dead" will be used at least as many times as he died.

[paraplegic]

it does matter! for example , ima rogue dps, last time in chrono epic i made 19 kills 1 barbarian made 18 and a fighter made 18, i "win" but its not like hey im uber, its not like that it means that the rest of the party where doing their job, afterall if fighter and barb didnt get agro i wouldnt stand a chance lead kill count..if mage didnt play his roll then barbarian would make that many kills, do you get my point? yes they do matter..it messure

[Cendaer]

This one works both ways, the players that never lead the kill count, always say that kill count means nothing.

It doesn't mean anything at all when it was the mass holds and webs from my wizard, who got no kills in the entire dungeon, that enabled the melees to get all the kills and took pressure off the healer.

If your melee accounted for 99.99% of the kills, but the final boss wipes the party before it can complete the quest, your kill count means nothing.

If you need a dedicated healer in your party in order to finish a quest, your kill count means nothing, since you wouldn't be able to be there killing stuff without someone who's NOT expected to directly engage in combat.

If you can't clear the whole dungeon yourself, without any help from other people, your kill count means nothing.

If you're in a party with anyone else, individual kill counts mean absolutely nothing, and provide no truly meaningful feedback. It's barely useful for gauging your own performance, because all you're doing is comparing yourself to what could be any number of unknown factors (gear, builds, skill, knowledge, etc.) affecting the players to which you're comparing yourself.

If you're in a party with other people, the only kill count that matters, is the total.

[Sweyn]

It doesn't mean anything at all when it was the mass holds and webs from my wizard, who got no kills in the entire dungeon, that enabled the melees to get all the kills and took pressure off the healer.

If your melee accounted for 99.99% of the kills, but the final boss wipes the party before it can complete the quest, your kill count means nothing.

If you need a dedicated healer in your party in order to finish a quest, your kill count means nothing, since you wouldn't be able to be there killing stuff without someone who's NOT expected to directly engage in combat.

If you can't clear the whole dungeon yourself, without any help from other people, your kill count means nothing.

If you're in a party with anyone else, individual kill counts mean absolutely nothing, and provide no truly meaningful feedback. It's barely useful for gauging your own performance, because all you're doing is comparing yourself to what could be any number of unknown factors (gear, builds, skill, knowledge, etc.) affecting the players to which you're comparing yourself.

If you're in a party with other people, the only kill count that matters, is the total.

You're looking at it in the wrong context.

[elraido]

In my guild, if my main out kills you....I get to boot you out of guild. No one can be more worthless to my guild than me!!! (heck, I even have a toon called worthlesss!) :D

[Astraghal]

It can be when comparing similar fighting styles, but because it's the last person to hit that gets the kill, it's often the monks or TWF'ers who will tend to pull ahead, regardless of overall DPS.

This is false for multiple reasons. You should consider rethinking your stance.

Re: OP.
Kill count is an imperfect indicator of relative dps against trash. That is all. There are many more effective ways to contribute to a party than dps against trash, so kill count is absolutely not a measure of contribution (but we already knew that).

Cheers,
Kernal

How is this false?

What are your reasons?

Why should I consider rethinking my stance?

[kernal42]

How is this false?

What are your reasons?

Why should I consider rethinking my stance?

First off, it's blantantly false when comparing TWF and THF, after the U5 changes:
Consider a TWF Ranger12 vs. a THF Barb12 (and ignoring glancing blows).
They have the same main-hand attack rates. When the Ranger hits, he gets an off-hand attack at the same time; his two swings doing their combined damage is no different than the barb hitting with one, bigger swing. If the damage of the two ranger hits is, on average, the same as that of the barb's one hit (ie, the two have the same dps), they must then have identical chances of getting the kill shot.

Considering a class whose attack speed is actually faster, like a monk, requires a little more effort. Let's consider the following model, in which nobody ever crits or misses and every hit does the same amount of damage.
Let's consider a monk vs. a barb, for stereotypical fighting styles.
The barb does 3 damage a swing; the monk does only 1 damage a swing but attacks 3 times as often. The two have identical dps. With this rate difference (and a regular attack order), there's a 25% chance that the barb will get the next hit; a 25% chance the monk will get the next three hits; a 25% chance the monk will get the next two hits; and a 25% chance the monk will only get the next one hit before the barb swings again.
Let's also assume that max mob hp is significantly more than 3. In this case, all mob hp values from 1 to 3 will occur with equal probability.

Mob HP 3: 25% of the time, the monk gets 3 swings in a row; 75% of the time the barb gets the killshot.
Mob HP 2: 50% of the time, the monk gets 2 swings in a row; 50% of the time the barb gets the killshot.
Mob HP 1: 75% of the time, the monk gets the next swing; 25% of the time the barb gets the killshot.

Some simple arithmetic concludes that, of all the possible permutations of mob hp and swing order, 50% of the time the barb gets the kill; 50% of the time the monk gets the kill. Their kill counts should be equal (over a large dataset) because they have the same dps, regardless of differing attack speeds.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Kabaon]

Kill counts matter to me simply because I play a character that is specifically to build up the kill count. Pale Master Wizzy, with 41 necro dc. If someone out kills me then I did something wrong on my part. But that`s just me

[Rydin_Dirtay]

No one ever says anything to me, when I obliterate everyone else in the KC. Therefore, it must not matter.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Actually, I am positive that kill count means something.


The problem is, that I just can't figure out what that something actually is. :cool:

[Lobster5]

I'm in the "it's a decent correlation to dps over time" camp.

It can be a decent barometer of your damage prowess, if you find yourself constantly low in the count or outkilled in 2:1 ratios in your DPS character, you're likely doing something wrong.

[mournbladereigns]

Only in PvP, thank you drive through

[halls]

Since there isn't any other individual measurement within the team environment, I would say it plays a role in measuring individual performance over time.

[Astraghal]

First off, it's blantantly false when comparing TWF and THF, after the U5 changes:
Consider a TWF Ranger12 vs. a THF Barb12 (and ignoring glancing blows).
They have the same main-hand attack rates. When the Ranger hits, he gets an off-hand attack at the same time; his two swings doing their combined damage is no different than the barb hitting with one, bigger swing. If the damage of the two ranger hits is, on average, the same as that of the barb's one hit (ie, the two have the same dps), they must then have identical chances of getting the kill shot.

Considering a class whose attack speed is actually faster, like a monk, requires a little more effort. Let's consider the following model, in which nobody ever crits or misses and every hit does the same amount of damage.
Let's consider a monk vs. a barb, for stereotypical fighting styles.
The barb does 3 damage a swing; the monk does only 1 damage a swing but attacks 3 times as often. The two have identical dps. With this rate difference (and a regular attack order), there's a 25% chance that the barb will get the next hit; a 25% chance the monk will get the next three hits; a 25% chance the monk will get the next two hits; and a 25% chance the monk will only get the next one hit before the barb swings again.
Let's also assume that max mob hp is significantly more than 3. In this case, all mob hp values from 1 to 3 will occur with equal probability.

Mob HP 3: 25% of the time, the monk gets 3 swings in a row; 75% of the time the barb gets the killshot.
Mob HP 2: 50% of the time, the monk gets 2 swings in a row; 50% of the time the barb gets the killshot.
Mob HP 1: 75% of the time, the monk gets the next swing; 25% of the time the barb gets the killshot.

Some simple arithmetic concludes that, of all the possible permutations of mob hp and swing order, 50% of the time the barb gets the kill; 50% of the time the monk gets the kill. Their kill counts should be equal (over a large dataset) because they have the same dps, regardless of differing attack speeds.

Cheers,
Kernal

You are making the incorrect assumption that all melee do the same amount of damage on average.

They don't.

[pregnable]

Kill count is pointless, because all kills belong to the Bard.

The Bard is always the winner.

[Zorack00]

I use it as a rough undependable measure of how much dps I am doing. Then when I'm not leading in kill counts, I just claim "Pfft... Kill counts don't mean anything." (Which is true to the most important extent) So I won't feel bad, and it works out great.

[khaldan]

You are making the incorrect assumption that all melee do the same amount of damage on average.

They don't.

While true, all this is attempting to show is that increased attack speed doesn't change who gets the kill count when damage per second between the two is identical.

[~jradnut]

Kill count matters. It is why they show the stat. If you are DPS, you are checking kill counts, period.

Everybody likes to do well, nobody likes to do badly. Kill counts are one of the few indicators we have of our success or lack thereof in certain aspects of our play.

Everybody checks. Ill tell somebody it doesn't matter to spare hurt feelings, but guess what? It matters, :p. I believe, with the possible exception of some dedicated healbots, that for every "I dont care about kill counts" player you show me, I can produce an equal amount of liars. :rolleyes: It's an MMO that encourages cooperation as well as competition. If kill counts stat were only 50% accurate at best...people would still be checking it.

If kill counts didnt matter, there would be no stat for it in the XP sheet and I suggest to you that the name of the game might not be DDO Unlimited but Ken and Barby's Fun Time Playhouse.

Edit: Danged if that wasn't fun, :D

[kernal42]

You are making the incorrect assumption that all melee do the same amount of damage on average.

They don't.

I am aware of the assumption I'm making and how it is, in general, incorrect.
That assumption however was made to address the incorrect statment you made here:


It can be when comparing similar fighting styles, but because it's the last person to hit that gets the kill, it's often the monks or TWF'ers who will tend to pull ahead, regardless of overall DPS.


We could discuss it in terms of different dps, but that would be needlessly complicating a simple issue. Instead, it's more straightforward to consider who gets the kills, on average, if dps is the same. The answer is that it's independant of attack speed, demonstrating the fallacy of your statement.
If you want to consider different dps, you'll notice that increasing the dps of either character in the model increases that character's proportion of kills (amazing!).

Cheers,
Kernal