A quick thread about battle clerics

[Tunst]

i understand people think battle clerics are "fail"
i dont understand why.

as long as hey have 17 levels of cleric, they should still be able to heal

imo, a battlecleric is only fail if they dont heal the party.
then they're a fail dps.

edit: apparently this is worth negative rep.
lol
edit2: lol thanks for the positive rep, put me back to where i was.


lolol

[Setin_Myways]

I do not think it has so much to do with the build as it does the mindset. I am a noob so forgive me for being wrong, but it is my experience when someone says they are a battle cleric, it implies that they will be focused more on melee than on tending to the party. This concept could diverge into many different conflicting perceptions about clerics, i.e. a cleric that only heals is not a good cleric (cleric vs. 'healer' - i.e. a well placed greater command can save more sp than healing the party after) , but often, when someone says I am a battle cleric, it is heard as 'I will not really be healing anyone but myself so you are better off with a npc hireling if you are counting on me to heal'

I believe a player does not have to say this, but the 1 fighter splash screams it. So, i might be wrong, but I do not think it is just the build per se, but the choice implies the toons/players focus and play style.

[Siro]

If the party would just stop taking damage for a minute, I could get on with killing stuff... :D

[Tunst]

I do not think it has so much to do with the build as it does the mindset. I am a noob so forgive me for being wrong, but it is my experience when someone says they are a battle cleric, it implies that they will be focused more on melee than on tending to the party. This concept could diverge into many different conflicting perceptions about clerics, i.e. a cleric that only heals is not a good cleric (cleric vs. 'healer' - i.e. a well placed greater command can save more sp than healing the party after) , but often, when someone says I am a battle cleric, it is heard as 'I will not really be healing anyone but myself so you are better off with a npc hireling if you are counting on me to heal'

I believe a player does not have to say this, but the 1 fighter splash screams it. So, i might be wrong, but I do not think it is just the build per se, but the choice implies the toons/players focus and play style.

not as quite, i have a battlecleric and whenever im in a party, i fight, i command things, i heal people.

[Miow]

Just don't join a group that's looking for a healer if you are a battle cleric. Just my experience..... :)

[Setin_Myways]

not as quite, i have a battlecleric and whenever im in a party, i fight, i command things, i heal people.


I am not talking about an individual player, like yourself, and I am not even saying eaveryone witt the splash does this... the problem is more the mindset, if it really is a problem, because i bet more players have run with 'battle clerics' that fall right into the stereotype than run with someone that can handle this dual role of the 'Battle cleric'.

I am not certain what the 1 fighter gives you but the additional feats. If you spent the lvl to get feats, you are going to make sure you use the feats right? If it is all about BAB, then why not use extended Divine power?

[dragonmane]

Just don't join a group that's looking for a healer if you are a battle cleric. Just my experience..... :)

Why not? A battle cleric can handle alot different rolls, not just as a melee, but as a back up cleric or as a hail mary healer or they have offensive spells with their melee. Overall the battle cleric can be good, just depends on what the group needs.

[protokon]

i understand people thinf battle clerics are "fail"
i dont understand why.

as long as hey have 17 levels of cleric, they should still be able to heal

imo, a battlecleric is only fail if they dont heal the party.
then they're a fail dps.

the same reason why most people think rangers,rogues and monks are not capable of DPSing. or why you need a healer for every single quest in the game.

stereotyping.

[voodoogroves]

I am not talking about an individual player, like yourself, and I am not even saying eaveryone witt the splash does this... the problem is more the mindset, if it really is a problem, because i bet more players have run with 'battle clerics' that fall right into the stereotype than run with someone that can handle this dual role of the 'Battle cleric'.

I am not certain what the 1 fighter gives you but the additional feats. If you spent the lvl to get feats, you are going to make sure you use the feats right? If it is all about BAB, then why not use extended Divine power?

People splash a cleric with fighter for the feat, weapon proficiencies, tower shields ... not BAB.

[danotmano1998]

Bah, battleclerics are just fine.

I play one and fill the role that is best depending on the party strength and the quest.

This is where most fail and people get that bad stereotype going.


If the party has plenty of dps, I just heal and whack things only when it will greatly benefit the party.

If the party lacks dps or isn't taking down the mobs fairly quickly, I'll add my blade into the mix.

It's not the build that fails, it's the player!! (As can be true for ANY build!!)

[Setin_Myways]

Why not? A battle cleric can handle alot different rolls, not just as a melee, but as a back up cleric or as a hail mary healer or they have offensive spells with their melee. Overall the battle cleric can be good, just depends on what the group needs.

if the lfm is looking for a healer, do you think they will be happy with a back up healer? It would be best to send a tell to the party learder and tell them you want to fill a dps spot or even a caster spot, but ymmv. If you answer an lfm for a healer, and that is not your primary focus, you will upset the leader and help to promote the stereotype you are defending.

[somenewnoob]

I'd run with a battle cleric any day. I personally like different builds and not just the cookie cutter build that is considered uber at the moment. Variety is good! Little bit of melee, little bit of spell slinging and healing.......may not do it as well as a pure fighter/barb or pure cleric.........but it sounds pretty versatile to me.

And just because you can't solo epics doesn't make the build "fail". I think a battle cleric would be a good addition to a group IMO.

I've never had one though, but it seems every person who HAS a battle cleric likes the toon a lot!

[Tunst]

the same reason why most people think rangers,rogues and monks are not capable of DPSing. or why you need a healer for every single quest in the game.

stereotyping.

my monk always doubled barbs/pals/ftrs kills in just about any quest. including epics. lol.

[Setin_Myways]

bah, Battleclerics Are Just Fine.

I Play One And Fill The Role That Is Best Depending On The Party Strength And The Quest.

this Is Where Most Fail And People Get That Bad Stereotype Going.


If The Party Has Plenty Of Dps, I Just Heal And Whack Things Only When It Will Greatly Benefit The Party.

If The Party Lacks Dps Or Isn't Taking Down The Mobs Fairly Quickly, I'll Add My Blade Into The Mix.

It's Not The Build That Fails, It's The Player!! (as Can Be True For Any Build!!)

+1

[kratimas]

Must be a lot of Battle Cleric hate'n going on cause this is like the 3rd or 4th "Why does everyone hate battle clerics" thread started today :)

What you will mostly find is that a lot of new players don't understand what battle clerics are all about. They have this mind set that the cleric should do nothing but stand back and heal, and there are a few times like that in this game it is rare at best. (This applies to some players that have been around awhile but, fewer then new players.)

Once you add the tag healer to something most will never be able to see beyond the "healing" aspect even though clerics can make pretty good fighters, especially for trash.

Like I said in a couple of other threads don't let the idiots and haters change the way you play the game. This is a game and is supposed to be fun for you. You will find players that understand what Battle Clerics are and what they bring to a group, the others that don't understand and refuse to listen will just never know what they are missing.

[voodoogroves]

if the lfm is looking for a healer, do you think they will be happy with a back up healer? It would be best to send a tell to the party learder and tell them you want to fill a dps spot or even a caster spot, but ymmv. If you answer an lfm for a healer, and that is not your primary focus, you will upset the leader and help to promote the stereotype you are defending.

The mistake you're making here is assuming a Cleric 17/other mix 3 is "a backup healer" or "wants to fill a DPS spot". You're assuming it's binary.

You'll find that this is a matter of player being more important than the build. A good player is going to be doing both. A bad player will probably only do one or the other, and poorly.

You may also find that many experienced players with the FVS or Cleric icon may not apply to any group that says "need healer".

[HAL]

In my opinion, the people who hate battle clerics don't want to be responsible for their own HP bar. They want someone who is going to just stand there and watch their health and heal them every single time they get low no matter what. These people are simply bad players and no cleric or other healer should pay any attention to their opinion.

Each player is responsible for their own HP. Characters who get agro when they can't handle it are not the cleric's problem. People need to know when to back out of combat, how to lose agro, carry pots & wands and stop wanting a babysitter. Everyone should contribute to the party in a variety of ways. It makes a much more valuable character. If any character is capable of healing, they should throw one out if they can see its needed. But with my Wizard I sure do love some Blade Barrier to go with my Firewall :) And clerics can help with the dps as well. Would be a shame if the cleric just stood at the back and healed.

[lord_of_rage]

if the lfm is looking for a healer, do you think they will be happy with a back up healer? It would be best to send a tell to the party learder and tell them you want to fill a dps spot or even a caster spot, but ymmv. If you answer an lfm for a healer, and that is not your primary focus, you will upset the leader and help to promote the stereotype you are defending.

Who said that a 19c 1f is a "back up healer"? A well built "battlecleric" can do most things your nanny bot can do and bunch of stuff he cant. You have the RS ap's for healing auras and boots. You have a high wis for spell pen and sp, and you have a high str for melee. I would rather have a well played battlecleric in a party than a nanny any day. The nanny offers healing and maybe dv's. Its not nearly what the battlecleric brings to the table. But you have to be able to know when to fight, when to cc, and when to step back and heal. I love my horc battlecleric. He is always a ton of fun to play. He always contributes to the party. And he isnt stuck doing nothing but babysitting. Its tiresome to be pigeonhole'ed in one role. I bet you also feel rogues job is nothing but traps right?

[Renvar]

All it takes for a Cleric to heal any raid or epic in the game(with minimal expense) is the following:

1800sp or more
Mass Cure Light Wounds Spell
Mass Cure Moderate Wounds Spell
Heal Spell (This one is actually optional)
Stack of Heal Scrolls
Stack of Mass Cure Mod Scrolls
Empower Healing Feat
6 AP spend on the Healing Spell Boost I, II, III
A Devotion or Potency item that boosts spells by 50%
Base Wisdom of 11 or higher.

You do that and you can be a solid healer.

1800 SP - With an archmagi item and/or a shroud SP item you can get this with 17 or more levels of cleric. Easily.
The spells all come automotically, whether you want them to or not.
The scrolls cost MAYBE 20kpp total for a stack of 100 each that will last you weeks unless your groups suck. You will easily earn more than enough in loot to offset the cost.
Empower Healing Feat - 1 feat slot. Out of 7. You can spare it. What else are you taking? Weapon Focus? For a +1 to hit? Be serious.
6 AP - Again, no way you can't spare these.
Devotion items are dirt cheap. Potency a bit more pricy, but one run of Tower of Despair will get you one almost certainly. People are vendoring them in half the runs I see.
Wis 11. - Yes, you can afford 3 build points.

You can make due even without some of the things on this bare bones list. The point is, it's hard to make a cleric build that CAN'T heal. It takes real intentional effort to screw it up.

So, who cares if they take 1-3 levels of fighter or monk or rogue or whatever? Who cares if they want to swing the weapon and bash some heads when not healing? It's probably the best choice, actually. A cleric loses very little in terms of healing or offensive damage spells by going with a melee focus. All they really lose is the DC on their command, greater command, slay living, destruction and implosion spells. None of which are very useful in epics or raids anyways.

While leveling they can be nice, but really, it's not that big a deal.

As said before, if you encounter a player with a playstyle that refuses to heal, you should ban the player, not the build. It's not that the build CAN'T heal. It's that the player WON'T.

[lord_of_rage]

You may also find that many experienced players with the FVS or Cleric icon may not apply to any group that says "need healer".

That is a great point. I know my cleric never hits those lfms.

[voodoogroves]

You're probably over-estimating the SP need...

[Setin_Myways]

The mistake you're making here is assuming a Cleric 17/other mix 3 is "a backup healer" or "wants to fill a DPS spot". You're assuming it's binary.

You'll find that this is a matter of player being more important than the build. A good player is going to be doing both. A bad player will probably only do one or the other, and poorly.

You may also find that many experienced players with the FVS or Cleric icon may not apply to any group that says "need healer".

I take people into an lfm regardless of their build more often than not. So the mistake you are making is that you think i practice what I am pointing out as a mindset that I have encountered. I play a cleric frequently, and if i see an lfm that says 'need healer' I normally will not join on my cleric because I see that as saying 'We need a babysitter/scapegoat'

I am not trying to condone or justify the mindset, just answered his question as to why people do what they do. I just ran with a 'battle cleric' yesterday and after a few wipes, everyone was like 'was that guy even trying to heal?' it takes a decent level of play to balance both. Communication is key. If the lfm says 'need healer' a typical battle cleric is going to be a disappointment. A player proficient at playing a 'Battle cleric' will never have the party know they are a battle cleric... then again, i think this is more about the distinction between a 'healer' and a 'cleric'

[voodoogroves]

I take people into an lfm regardless of their build more often than not. So the mistake you are making is that you think i practice what I am pointing out as a mindset that I have encountered. I play a cleric frequently, and if i see an lfm that says 'need healer' I normally will not join on my cleric because I see that as saying 'We need a babysitter/scapegoat'

I am not trying to condone or justify the mindset, just answered his question as to why people do what they do. I just ran with a 'battle cleric' yesterday and after a few wipes, everyone was like 'was that guy even trying to heal?' it takes a decent level of play to balance both. Communication is key. If the lfm says 'need healer' a typical battle cleric is going to be a disappointment. A player proficient at playing a 'Battle cleric' will never have the party know they are a battle cleric... then again, i think this is more about the distinction between a 'healer' and a 'cleric'

Yeah ... and the first indicator is someone saying "I'm a Battle Cleric".

A good player is a "cleric". Battle and heal both come with that.

[Setin_Myways]

Who said that a 19c 1f is a "back up healer"? A well built "battlecleric" can do most things your nanny bot can do and bunch of stuff he cant. You have the RS ap's for healing auras and boots. You have a high wis for spell pen and sp, and you have a high str for melee. I would rather have a well played battlecleric in a party than a nanny any day. The nanny offers healing and maybe dv's. Its not nearly what the battlecleric brings to the table. But you have to be able to know when to fight, when to cc, and when to step back and heal. I love my horc battlecleric. He is always a ton of fun to play. He always contributes to the party. And he isnt stuck doing nothing but babysitting. Its tiresome to be pigeonhole'ed in one role. I bet you also feel rogues job is nothing but traps right?

it was not me that said that. I was responding to someone's post that said they would respond to an lfm for healer, but they plan to be the backup healer. It is more about managing expectations.

[Phidius]

The "Battle Cleric" issue is better described as the "Play your toon the way I want" issue.

The reason people focus on the "battle cleric" part is because more people rely on a Divine-IV for their build to shine. When that IV doesn't deliver, it's simply easier to rage at the cleric.

Clerics aren't the only ones to suffer this - every class (including barbarians) get a piece too.

Just ask the barbarian who couldn't DPS, or the rogue who couldn't disable the trap, or the wizard who can't hold the mobs, or the...

You get the picture.

[Invalid_50]

It all depends on the group.

What they expect and what they are capable of. I've seen battle clerics lead kill counts (and no not just getting the "last hit") all the while keeping the group healed. The group did not demand high maintenance. If the cleric hadn't stepped up, the quest would have taken longer, and there would have been a higher probability for more deaths.

I've seen battle clerics fall back and do nothing but heal, when the group was slaughtering monsters wholesale. There was no reason for the cleric to enter the fray, and he happily coasted through the quest tossing mass cures or the occasional heal along the way.

I've also seen battle clerics obliviously chopping away at a monster doing insignificant damage, while the heavy hitters dropped like flies one by one as they desperately tried to chug heal pots.

There are poor players of every class, do not let one poor player of a specific class or build taint your opinion of every player of that build or class.

[RenigadeWolf]

This problem with Battle Clerics comes from 5-6 things mainly: 1) Players coming from PnP that think because they know it, they know DDO (this is not an offensive statement; i was similar to this at one time as well. but they need to learn that they are TOTALLY different.) 2) lack of play style skill. most Battle Clerics only heal themselves, compared to healing the entire party. played with one a while back that was outrunning me on my Fighter... i carried his stone a good many times. 3) other Players not being as well prepared as maybe they should be. especially in lower levels i carry stacks of potions and chug them anytime i get the chance; saves Divines/Arcanes SPs. 4) These Battle Clerics starting out not healing, instead of just cutting off healing to anyone that takes too much: i recently played a Battlesoul and had to do this in my very first quest even: was a Barb 1/Cleric 1/ Bard 1 i think... TWF... on my Battlesoul i could manage to keep everyone on their feet (not using more SPs than a Cleric normally has at comparable levels) with no issue. i have been commended for being a great player a number of times on both of my 'Healers', and it wasn't just for healing either... i'm a terrible healer. (is more, but i got stuff to do and will post later)

-Rhamiel

[Setin_Myways]

Yeah ... and the first indicator is someone saying "I'm a Battle Cleric".

A good player is a "cleric". Battle and heal both come with that.


It all depends on the group.

What they expect and what they are capable of. I've seen battle clerics lead kill counts (and no not just getting the "last hit") all the while keeping the group healed. The group did not demand high maintenance. If the cleric hadn't stepped up, the quest would have taken longer, and there would have been a higher probability for more deaths.

I've seen battle clerics fall back and do nothing but heal, when the group was slaughtering monsters wholesale. There was no reason for the cleric to enter the fray, and he happily coasted through the quest tossing mass cures or the occasional heal along the way.

I've also seen battle clerics obliviously chopping away at a monster doing insignificant damage, while the heavy hitters dropped like flies one by one as they desperately tried to chug heal pots.

There are poor players of every class, do not let one poor player of a specific class or build taint your opinion of every player of that build or class.

My guess is the first 2 players never said they were a Battle Cleric or even consider themselves one, while the 3rd example likely said 'Hey, I am a battle cleric' when the party complained about them.

So, i see it as you have 3 labels for the cleric class, regardless of splash or whatever:
Cleric - someone that will contribute to the party and fill in the roles as needed - healing when they need to, using offensive spells when needed or joining melee if it is needed, but this is the 'high end' player that knows what they are doing.

Healer - someone that keeps the party topped off, saves all sp for buffs or heals, hangs back and is 'still learning ' to be a cleric as above, this is more realisitcally where my current skill level lies, but I am still a noob.

Battle Cleric - someone that used to play NWN or some other game where a multiclass cleric was the best build around and focuses on combat, ignoring the other roles available to someone playing the cleric class and takes not responsibility to the party, at all. Please to not see 'responsibility to the party' to mean if someone dies, it is there fault... a rogue that can UMD heal a fellow party member but neglects to do so could be just as responsible... if that makes sense. i mean ultimately, everyone should be as self sufficient as possible, but this is a cooperative game.

[Kathul]

Battle Cleric, Always sounds like Fighter Healer.
Funny thing about DDO and PnP.
Wanna be a fighter, make a fighter, wanna be a caster be a caster, but if you play a class that has access to healing, you WILL be expected to heal, everyone !!!

I made a gnome cleric to the god of travel , just so i could heal the fighters, why? Clerics will never outshine the fighter types and if the cleric is stopping to heal themselves and not the one who can actually kill the monster well, not gonna be a lasting relationship.

A Caster Cleric i always thought to be a better idea. WIth maxed wisdom, and access to great offensive spells why not try that?

Does the Clr/Mo/Rog build still exist? That build use to be able to do it all.

[elujin]

i think most of the hate comes from the bad players playing them

the guy just who is s&bing it up with no ac no dps and doesn't heal him self let alone the rest of the party thats a bad player with prob a bad build

when i was newer i realy hated them ther sp lasted about 3 cure lights of 1d6 the didn't use dm and used shields even though they didn't have ac worth speaking off.

it took a few well played battle clerics to change my mind

and now especialy with radiant servant battle clerics shoud do just as good a pure caster one is better at static raid boss fights but its still use full the have a battle cleric in the fray bursting and dpsing

[Invalid_50]

So, i see it as you have 3 labels for the cleric class, regardless of splash or whatever:


Honestly I think its less about labels and more about expectations, though i see where you are coming from.

In this game you can build whatever you want, to do whatever you want. If you do not build it correctly though it wont perform well in that role. If you want to build a cleric but want to match a raging barbarian pound for pound in straight dps merely by swinging your weapon you probably wont have much luck. Compound it with that particular Cleric absolutely outright refusing to heal because he doesn't want be pigeonholed "a healer". So the cleric only swings a weapon saving all mana to heal himself and has a chip on his shoulder. People seeing him do this will likely get angry, not because they expect him to be their nanny, but for his obliviousness, and the fact that he bring little value to the group.

If you expect your cleric to cast offensive spells like comet fall, blade barrier, greater command and the like, in conjunction with swinging your weapon not really caring about "dps" but more about eliminating monsters and thereby reducing overall damage to your group then you are on the right track, so long as you build it correctly for that function. (there are also many other ways to build "combat clerics" this is just one example)

Then of course you throw in expectations of the group, do they want a nanny? use you as an excuse to play poorly? Or are they really a$$kickers who dont need your blade barriers or greater commands because they have already killed the @#$@ out of everything in their way, and just want you there to suck free xp and top them off between fights?

Then there are the everyman for themselves groups. those are the groups that form and say BYOH. Those are the groups that understand and realize "healers" are not necessary in a great many quests in this game. Though even in those groups the classes that can cast efficient heal spells will likely hit other players when they get low (to keep the juggernaut of destruction rolling). They don't want to have the 600hp melee in the pit stop chugging pots instead of killing and getting the quest done faster, so they push a single button, and that melee is back in the fray. For all those people who say "we don't like zerging" It's the zergers who generally get the big picture, they are the ones that generally understand roles better than most. (I'm talking about the successful zergers that handle themselves btw)

All in all though it is your character and you can play the way you like. But we don't live with our head in the sand. There are certain expectations in groups. It's when those expectations become mandates I think some folks on one side get upset (when it is unnecessary), and when those expectations are outright refused the other side gets upset. (when they are necessary)

Btw, don't forget to have fun :)

[Narmolanya]

Just don't join a group that's looking for a healer if you are a battle cleric. Just my experience..... :)

Just because you can fight dosnt mean you always have to. On my horc cleric if the party needs it I can put up the great axe and swap to devotion shield and scrolls. Don't have to often but the fact remains a battle cleric can solo heal if needed but can also DPS when appropriate. Knowing when to do each is what makes a player a good battle cleric in my opinion.

[Ystradmynach]

Battle Cleric, Always sounds like Fighter Healer.
Funny thing about DDO and PnP.
Wanna be a fighter, make a fighter, wanna be a caster be a caster, but if you play a class that has access to healing, you WILL be expected to heal, everyone !!!


That's not true, my ranger has access to healing, and has never been expected to step in and heal anyone, nor has my paladin. Even my warchanter bard is very rarely asked to be even a backup healer, if anything haste is what is asked for.

It's only clerics and favored souls that are regularly expected to heal, even though there are more classes than not that have access to at least some healing. On the other hand, no class other than clerics, favored souls and healing spec'd bards are actually good enough at healing to keep anyone except maybe themselves up.

And if people think the debate about battle clerics is bad now, just wait until the warpriest PrE comes out...

[phalaeo]

People think there are fail melee clerics the same reason why they're leery about "Low-HP Drow Wizzies" or "squishy Rogues".

If you build and gear it right, you're not going to fall into that category.

In about a month, I'll be TR'ing my melee Cleric into Phalcon's build- something he and I have been talking about for some time. Now, most people, upon seeing a Cleric with Barbarian levels, will immediately dismiss it. This is the same build that was part of a 4 man Elite ToD- it hits like a Mack truck for a Cleric and has as good (if not better) DPS than a WF FvS.

The reason why players encounter so many bad melee Clerics is because (esp. at low levels), they don't know when to go in and DPS and they don't know when to stand back and hjeal.

Give melee Clerics a chance to join your groups. Like any other player in a PUG, you may be disappointed or you may be pleasantly surprised.

[justagame]

I have a slight issue with the thread title -- there is no such thing as a "quick" thread about battle clerics... :)

People hate BC's for two reasons:

Reason #1 is similar to ranger hate. We've all seen horrible AA's with no STR or CON, are as squishy as Coyle, and destroy melee dps by kiting incessantly. As a result of these poor players, many people conclude that taking on an unknown ranger is just too much of a risk. Sure, there are well-played excellent rangers out there, but the chance of taking on a zero is just too high. Similarly, we've all seen people who "think" they are battle clerics, but who in fact are poor players that lack awareness. They are unaware that they are not causing much harm to the enemy, and they are also unaware that they should also occasionally come to the aid of dying party members. Sure, there are great battle clerics out there, but taking on one who is unknown just carries a risk. The blame here lies with those who play battle clerics poorly. It's partially a question of build, but much more a question of attention span.

Reason #2 lies at the feet of non-clerics. There are just some people out there who view clerics as nothing but their own personal healbots. Any actions other than healing your precious uber monster melee -- whether commanding ogres, taking out a room with BB, destructing that caster, or contributing with melee damage, are simply unwelcome. As far as these people are concerned, a cleric is there to stand back, shut up, and keep the heals coming, irrespective of the quest. In these cases, the problem isn't the battle cleric -- it's the narrow-minded person judging them.

[Vint]

If someone posts "needs heals" in an LFM, how is that any worse whan someone that puts "know it" in the lfm?
You can put whatever you want in your lfm, and accept they guy that looks like the best fit as a "healer" for your group. It all depends on the person playing that character. I would rather take a Bard that knows what he is doing over any pure or battle cleric that has no clue on how to play his character.

[der_kluge]

To really have this debate, we probably first need to settle on a definition of what a battle cleric is.

I think some people think a battle cleric is essentially any cleric that isn't gimp.

I could make a pure 32 pt. build cleric with decent wisdom, decent charisma, and decent constitution, with a weapon other than a heavy mace, with heavy fortification, and would be able to survive melee while still essentially being a "heal bot". That's not a battle cleric. That's a well-built cleric, playing on all the strengths of the class.

However, I say "talk to the hand" to people who try to convince me that they can outdamage barbarians with their battle cleric. To those people I say - you're playing the wrong class, and you probably deserve the hate being tossed your way.

[dennison_brillo]

that is the problem with the mind set on this game. People seem to think that you have to have a one-sided toon; you see this the most with clerics and rouges. I think it might be the lack of players that played the pnp or too much time looking at the rubbish builds of here. A full cleric can fight and heal that is what the class is made for. Its all about the gear, spells, and abilities you have lined up. Take the fact that besides pally's clerics are the best at fighting undead. Idk all I have to say is that there is two sides to every coin if all you see is one side what is the point.

[justagame]

To really have this debate, we probably first need to settle on a definition of what a battle cleric is.

I think some people think a battle cleric is essentially any cleric that isn't gimp.

I could make a pure 32 pt. build cleric with decent wisdom, decent charisma, and decent constitution, with a weapon other than a heavy mace, with heavy fortification, and would be able to survive melee while still essentially being a "heal bot". That's not a battle cleric. That's a well-built cleric, playing on all the strengths of the class.

However, I say "talk to the hand" to people who try to convince me that they can outdamage barbarians with their battle cleric. To those people I say - you're playing the wrong class, and you probably deserve the hate being tossed your way.

I'd call your first example an advanced cleric, or perhaps a melee-capable cleric. Of course, when someone in the party dies, if that cleric was EVER seen in melee, he/she becomes known to the dead party member as "that ____ing battle cleric."

I really see your second example as a straw man. There are very powerful battle-cleric builds out there, that do cause a great deal of damage -- and can still heal well. Comparing their dps to a well-built barbarian is missing the point. If that was the case, why roll a barbarian? Now, is the dps of a well-built battle cleric enough to contribute solidly to the party's damage-dealing, and bring down mobs faster? You bet. Now, why do you think that person deserves hate?

[BOgre]

seems to me that PUGing in general is touch and go. Leaders often don't put vital info into the comment, member often have their own agendas, people quit, people lie, blah blah blah. Join a party as a cleric, focus on healing and you're called a heal-bot. They berrate you for not contributing enough. Contribute with buffs and cc, and they cry about your waste of SP, yelling Heeeeeaaaalllll while standing IN lava. You just can't please people, and anonymous strangers in an MMO are especially fickle.
Like playing a battlecleric? Play it, have fun, and try to keep track of the people that DON'T suck, and that DO appreciate your playstyle. Play at the same(ish) time of day everyday and you may eventually gather a half decent static group or two.

[Vyrn]

I do fine 2 lvs of cleric down. In my opinion, its less the fact that they can hit things, and more the fact the party isn't confident they can survive the 1 second it takes for the cleric to stop hitting things and hit the mass heal button.

On a side note however, I dont see the.. point of a battle cleric. Youre not going to be great DPS anyway, why bother. Although, I dont really care what the other healer type does since quests arent hard enough to justify a full time healer anyway. (I feel like Im piking half the time in raids anyway :()

[TheHolyDarkness]

My cleric monk was toon number four. The fifth toon for me to cap. I have mixed feelings considering that I trained a barbarian right next to him, running the same quests back to back. On one hand, I'm a god a DPS who resents it when the healer in the group isn't paying attention to my back.

On the other hand, I'm a sneak attack dependant halfling cleric monk that does gimp DPS compared to the FB. But man, handling the healer role is rough. Sometimes its difficult to concentrate especially as I'm still learning.

By now, my personal skill level with my build is reaching a point where its ever more rare for people to drop dead around me (retro-fitted my feats and what not). Starting in U9, my DPS will be better compensated with a high DC stunning fist.

But I don't forget that I'm no "true" DPS. I melee with the others, I keep the aura up and I toss a mass cure when I need to. But I don't delude myself into thinking that I come anywhere close to my teammates in terms of damage.

And I think that's what many melees out there resent. The elitist mindset that your battle cleric truly does it all and that it does it all better than anyone. No it doesn't. Even if its some triple TR exceptionally well equipped battle cleric that leads in the kill count versus first life melees who still run around with generic loot, somewhere, we can point to a triple TR exceptionally well equipped pure DPS that still spanks you in the role of making thinks die.

Its the whole "a God am I" mindset really. I'm a good cleric, and a good player overall in terms of having a proper gear plan, but in large part I think I'm a great cleric for the following two reasons:

A) because I appreciate what others bring to the table. Given that my cleric is toon #5 to be capped, I have empathy with a lot of other classes and roles.

B) because I communicate. I inform others of my overall sneak-attack style and that I like to rely on healing ki and aura spam as my primary means of maintaining our health. I request crowd-control in the form of Air Elem armies. If someone is out of range, I inform him of his tactical situation. If people start dying, I call out whose being ressed in what order. And I drink pots as I need without complaint.

C) I seek wisdom and advice from healers more vet than I to improve my play style. Simple practice will get me there.

That is all from my humble perspective.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

[HackSlashKill]

Reason #2 lies at the feet of non-clerics. There are just some people out there who view clerics as nothing but their own personal healbots. Any actions other than healing your precious uber monster melee -- whether commanding ogres, taking out a room with BB, destructing that caster, or contributing with melee damage, are simply unwelcome. As far as these people are concerned, a cleric is there to stand back, shut up, and keep the heals coming, irrespective of the quest. In these cases, the problem isn't the battle cleric -- it's the narrow-minded person judging them.


And that folks is the number one reason some people don't like battle clerics

[joneb1999]

The mistake you're making here is assuming a Cleric 17/other mix 3 is "a backup healer" or "wants to fill a DPS spot". You're assuming it's binary.

You'll find that this is a matter of player being more important than the build. A good player is going to be doing both. A bad player will probably only do one or the other, and poorly.

You may also find that many experienced players with the FVS or Cleric icon may not apply to any group that says "need healer".

I avoid them

[ShotByBothSides]

The mistake you're making here is assuming a Cleric 17/other mix 3 is "a backup healer" or "wants to fill a DPS spot". You're assuming it's binary.

You'll find that this is a matter of player being more important than the build. A good player is going to be doing both. A bad player will probably only do one or the other, and poorly.

You may also find that many experienced players with the FVS or Cleric icon may not apply to any group that says "need healer".

Indeed you are correct. I play a cleric who fights (when appropriate) and a FS/Monk.

Both are perfectly able to heal as well as any pure healer. The groups to avoid are the small minded few that advertise "need healer", they pigeon hole all classes.

I quess that these players mainly come from other MMOs which have virtually zero multi class options.

[JasonJi72]

I play fvs battle healers. Whenever I join a group I always get the inquisition.

Q: Can you heal?
A: Im a fvs.

Q: Yes, but can you heal?
A: I have the spells and the ardor items necessary, yes.

Q: What are you specced for?
A: I'm a melee fvs.

Okay, so I'll adjust the post for a cleric healer, if we don't get one I'll bring a hire.
*facepalm* Do what you wish.

On another instance preparing for Tempest spine. 1 cleric, 1 fvs, 1 bard, 1 wiz.

Leader: Saving a spot for another cleric.
Me (as a monk): Lets get some more dps or another caster.
L: The fvs can't heal, he is specced for melee?
M: ??
Fvs: Nope, not at all. I am a dps fvs.
M: In a raid? Ok.. do as you wish. *adds fvs to 'friends' list*

For the record, some of the smoothest runs I've ever been on had no healer. I said some!.... jeez... lol :)

Not healing is a 'choice' on a fvs or cleric. You have to intentionally gimp yourself not to be able to heal with those classes. If you won't heal, play a fighter or barbarian since those are the only 2 classes that can't do any healing in the game.... unless... they cross class umd...

[kcru]

On a side note however, I dont see the.. point of a battle cleric. Youre not going to be great DPS anyway, why bother.


I suppose the question could be put to a barbarian... "what's the point in increasing your damage an extra 10%?" The answer is the same... any increase is good.


Take a 2 person party. One tempest, one cleric. If the cleric does nothing but heal, then the damage is tempest-only, and will take longer to kill. If the cleric, as piddly as his damage is, contributes 1/3 of the damage that the tempest does, that's STILL the same as increasing the tempest damage by 1/3, which I'm sure he'd wet himself to do.


So long as the cleric can keep people alive, whacking on stuff is good. So long as people live, the feats, etc, that the cleric have aren't really anyone's business, whether that's trying for more melee damage, spell DCs, spell penetration, or what-have-you.

I personally take a couple levels of fighter so that when I'm soloing I can kill things at a decent clip. Casting offensive spells is a great way to go OOM at this point. Maybe that will change in Update 9.

[azrael4h]

The mistake you're making here is assuming a Cleric 17/other mix 3 is "a backup healer" or "wants to fill a DPS spot". You're assuming it's binary.

You'll find that this is a matter of player being more important than the build. A good player is going to be doing both. A bad player will probably only do one or the other, and poorly.

You may also find that many experienced players with the FVS or Cleric icon may not apply to any group that says "need healer".

I'd +1 you, but I've given you some already.

I never hit "need heals" groups. No matter what I'm playing, even if I'm on my Sorcerer or Paladin, I will not hit one of those groups.

[Siro]

I'll happily hit 'need heals' groups as a cleric because it basically means that they've already assumed that healing is all I can do. It basically means I can pike the quest if I want.

[Narmolanya]

I'll happily hit 'need heals' groups as a cleric because it basically means that they've already assumed that healing is all I can do. It basically means I can pike the quest if I want.

Lol, I do this as well sometimes. Just throw a few heals and collect loot and xp.

[LordPiglet]

People think there are fail melee clerics the same reason why they're leery about "Low-HP Drow Wizzies" or "squishy Rogues".

If you build and gear it right, you're not going to fall into that category.

In about a month, I'll be TR'ing my melee Cleric into Phalcon's build- something he and I have been talking about for some time. Now, most people, upon seeing a Cleric with Barbarian levels, will immediately dismiss it. This is the same build that was part of a 4 man Elite ToD- it hits like a Mack truck for a Cleric and has as good (if not better) DPS than a WF FvS.

The reason why players encounter so many bad melee Clerics is because (esp. at low levels), they don't know when to go in and DPS and they don't know when to stand back and hjeal.

Give melee Clerics a chance to join your groups. Like any other player in a PUG, you may be disappointed or you may be pleasantly surprised.

That's the 17/2/1 cleric/fighter/barb? The build intrigues me and I might roll one up but need more info.

A couple things though, the WF FvS does nice damage, and I'm sure if I ever manage an eSoS it will be a big upgrade over my current weaponry, but they're not close in damage to a melee. I crit in the 100+ range (holy acid burst Green Steel), my level 14 thf pally can get an exhaulted smite crit for 250 with a bloody cleaver. My kensai is even more dps. Being able to BB kite does help some, but if I want real dps, I'm on my kensai, if she's on timer, I'm on my exploiter.

What it does bring to the table is enough dr to make most content a joke. Nothing like standing in sins and watching orthons pop you for 0 or 1 point of damage (and I only have 12 dr just standing as I wanted to keep extend).

[Phidius]

If someone posts "needs heals" in an LFM, how is that any worse whan someone that puts "know it" in the lfm?
...

"needs heals" - considering that a majority of the content does not, in fact, need a healer, this can be interpretted as "We are incapable of using strategy - come throw healing at us while we brute-force our way to victory. Don't worry, if we fail we'll simply blame you"

"know it" - Depending on other circumstances, this can be interpretted as "This quest is cake with folks who know how it should be done".

The problem is that which of the 2 phrases are used in the LFM is only part of the story.

"needs heals" with all classes available is better than "know it" that will only take clerics.


...On a side note however, I dont see the.. point of a battle cleric. Youre not going to be great DPS anyway, why bother. Although, I dont really care what the other healer type does since quests arent hard enough to justify a full time healer anyway. (I feel like Im piking half the time in raids anyway :()

I think you see the point better than you realize. Personally, I log in to play the game, not pike my way to completion. Well, my main account at least - my alternate accounts do in fact log in just to pike :D

If all you need to be a successful healer (for a majority of the content) is 12 levels of cleric, why not spend the other 8 levels on a class that has some fun toys?

[LordPiglet]

You can brute force without a healer, you just have to build to do it

[Talltale-Storyteller]

I play fvs battle healers. Whenever I join a group I always get the inquisition.

Q: Can you heal?
A: Im a fvs.

Q: Yes, but can you heal?
A: I have the spells and the ardor items necessary, yes.

Q: What are you specced for?
A: I'm a melee fvs.

Okay, so I'll adjust the post for a cleric healer, if we don't get one I'll bring a hire.
*facepalm* Do what you wish.

On another instance preparing for Tempest spine. 1 cleric, 1 fvs, 1 bard, 1 wiz.

Leader: Saving a spot for another cleric.
Me (as a monk): Lets get some more dps or another caster.
L: The fvs can't heal, he is specced for melee?
M: ??
Fvs: Nope, not at all. I am a dps fvs.
M: In a raid? Ok.. do as you wish. *adds fvs to 'friends' list*

For the record, some of the smoothest runs I've ever been on had no healer. I said some!.... jeez... lol :)

Not healing is a 'choice' on a fvs or cleric. You have to intentionally gimp yourself not to be able to heal with those classes. If you won't heal, play a fighter or barbarian since those are the only 2 classes that can't do any healing in the game.... unless... they cross class umd...

Dude, I feel your pain.

I was on my clonk and there was a FvS in the group (Gwylan's elite) I have been CCing melee'ing and healing the whole quest and the FvS comments on there only being one healer in the party.

M: How do you figure there's only one healer in the party?
F: You have monk levels you're more of a battlecleric.
M: Really, you know my build huh?
F: cleric/monks aren't new, you need to take more monk levels. (I have 3 already....)
M: That just shows you don't know anything about my build.

So we continue to roll through the quest with this FvS not doing anything but standing around and throwing the occasional heal.

So then I get into a TS run, and the lead invites this same FvS and he starts telling the party I'm a "battle-cleric" not a healer. ***? So I assure the party leader I am a prificient cleric and know when to cast, when to fight, and when to heal. Thankfully he listened to me, but I was pretty ticked at the c0ck-bl0cking FvS...

[SaneDitto]

The FvS is probably just jealous. :D

[Entelech]

To really have this debate, we probably first need to settle on a definition of what a battle cleric is.

I think some people think a battle cleric is essentially any cleric that isn't gimp.

I could make a pure 32 pt. build cleric with decent wisdom, decent charisma, and decent constitution, with a weapon other than a heavy mace, with heavy fortification, and would be able to survive melee while still essentially being a "heal bot". That's not a battle cleric. That's a well-built cleric, playing on all the strengths of the class.

However, I say "talk to the hand" to people who try to convince me that they can outdamage barbarians with their battle cleric. To those people I say - you're playing the wrong class, and you probably deserve the hate being tossed your way.


You raise some good points. To respond:

(1) Generally speaking, melee-splashed Cleric builds are tricky to play and require a lot of situational awareness to play well. Not only are you chasing those stupid Kobolds up the walls, but you're also looking at party hitpoints, your own mana bar, and pressing a lot of buttons.

If you're not a skilled enough player, you're really only doing the battle thing OR the cleric thing. Not both. And you're not doing that one thing as well as a specialist might.

If you're particularly bad, you end up with your attention divided so many ways that you become useless and unable to do ANYTHING. At this point, you end up with your stone in a pool of lava, and five players swearing "I'll never PUG another one of those freaking Battle Clerics again."


(2) Given some of the terrible, horrible Barbarians out there, I would not be surprised to see a competently played Cleric outdamaging them. Probably with time left over to heal the party and simultaneously mock them in guild chat. There are inept players for every class.


(3) Generally, the folks with the experience to handle a complex build - be it a Battle Cleric, a Tucaw, or even a pure-AC raid tank - are experienced DDO players with multiple capped characters. They group with guildies more often than not, are capable of soloing for XP, and are rarely seen haunting the LFM's.

Thus, most Battle Clerics you encounter in PUGs will be the inept ones. And, coming up through the PUGs, newer players will form a terrible opinion of the whole idea of Battle Clerics, since every one they've ever seen has been a putz.

[FlyingTurtle]

You raise some good points. To respond:

(1) Generally speaking, melee-splashed Cleric builds are tricky to play and require a lot of situational awareness to play well. Not only are you chasing those stupid Kobolds up the walls, but you're also looking at party hitpoints, your own mana bar, and pressing a lot of buttons.

If you're not a skilled enough player, you're really only doing the battle thing OR the cleric thing. Not both. And you're not doing that one thing as well as a specialist might.

If you're particularly bad, you end up with your attention divided so many ways that you become useless and unable to do ANYTHING. At this point, you end up with your stone in a pool of lava, and five players swearing "I'll never PUG another one of those freaking Battle Clerics again."


(2) Given some of the terrible, horrible Barbarians out there, I would not be surprised to see a competently played Cleric outdamaging them. Probably with time left over to heal the party and simultaneously mock them in guild chat. There are inept players for every class.


(3) Generally, the folks with the experience to handle a complex build - be it a Battle Cleric, a Tucaw, or even a pure-AC raid tank - are experienced DDO players with multiple capped characters. They group with guildies more often than not, are capable of soloing for XP, and are rarely seen haunting the LFM's.

Thus, most Battle Clerics you encounter in PUGs will be the inept ones. And, coming up through the PUGs, newer players will form a terrible opinion of the whole idea of Battle Clerics, since every one they've ever seen has been a putz.

You win the thread! +1

That's all that ever really needs to be said about the battle cleric issue.

[Tirisha]

You raise some good points. To respond:

(1) Generally speaking, melee-splashed Cleric builds are tricky to play and require a lot of situational awareness to play well. Not only are you chasing those stupid Kobolds up the walls, but you're also looking at party hitpoints, your own mana bar, and pressing a lot of buttons.

If you're not a skilled enough player, you're really only doing the battle thing OR the cleric thing. Not both. And you're not doing that one thing as well as a specialist might.

If you're particularly bad, you end up with your attention divided so many ways that you become useless and unable to do ANYTHING. At this point, you end up with your stone in a pool of lava, and five players swearing "I'll never PUG another one of those freaking Battle Clerics again."


(2) Given some of the terrible, horrible Barbarians out there, I would not be surprised to see a competently played Cleric outdamaging them. Probably with time left over to heal the party and simultaneously mock them in guild chat. There are inept players for every class.


(3) Generally, the folks with the experience to handle a complex build - be it a Battle Cleric, a Tucaw, or even a pure-AC raid tank - are experienced DDO players with multiple capped characters. They group with guildies more often than not, are capable of soloing for XP, and are rarely seen haunting the LFM's.

Thus, most Battle Clerics you encounter in PUGs will be the inept ones. And, coming up through the PUGs, newer players will form a terrible opinion of the whole idea of Battle Clerics, since every one they've ever seen has been a putz.

Basically this^

I'd also like too add that some people expect healers to be played like a henchie hireling And the inexperienced healers that do nothing but follow the party dropping the occasional offensive spell and /babysitting every grandma Bindor they run across can fill the henchie role well.

[Horrorscope]

What surprises me is this is the first time in 5 years we've talked about this. I thought this would have come up ages ago.

I play one (as I level higher I become more healer then battler) and no doubt it's all about understanding the situation. How I can deal with it is I have an option of using Voice Commands for healing. Heal1, Heal2... Aid1, Aid2... Group Heal. All these can be said and they fire off, that is a way where you don't have to be as dexterous on the keyboard. Virtual Commander and many other options exist today that can handle it.

I also use Hotkey and have coordinates on my screen setup where I can click your bar. Left click on your name-bars and I send out a heal, right click on the name and it's a cure to you. Again another way to make it easier to whip off heals quickly. It's great living in 2011 with all the addons we can use if we look for them. Sure it would be great for the game to handle it itself, but a little work and presto you built in a feature the game doesn't have.

Here is an example for those interested in clicking bars and it fires off heals to that specific player: (Your coords will vary, I'm using 1680x1050. There is a tool where it tracks your mouse coords, I simply go to each corner and then put them in the script) (Numpad1-6 highlights the teammate, F2=Heal Hotbar Slot, F1=Cure Hotbar slot)

CoordMode, Mouse, Screen
$LButton::
MouseGetPos xVal,yVal

;***Heal Spell***
;---Nameplate LClick---
;Player 1 Main Section
If (500<xVal) and (xVal<600) and (780<yVal) and (yVal<810)
{
Send {Numpad1}
Send {F2}
}
Else
;Player 2 Main Section
If (500<xVal) and (xVal<600) and (815<yVal) and (yVal<840)
{
Send {Numpad2}
Send {F2}
}
Else
;Player 3 Main Section
If (500<xVal) and (xVal<600) and (845<yVal) and (yVal<870)
{
Send {Numpad3}
Send {F2}
}
Else
;Player 4 Main Section
If (500<xVal) and (xVal<600) and (875<yVal) and (yVal<900)
{
Send {Numpad4}
Send {F2}
}
Else
;Player 5 Main Section
If (500<xVal) and (xVal<600) and (905<yVal) and (yVal<930)
{
Send {Numpad5}
Send {F2}
}
Else
;Player 6 Main Section
If (500<xVal) and (xVal<600) and (935<yVal) and (yVal<960)
{
Send {Numpad6}
Send {F2}
}
Else

;---------------------------------------------------------
CoordMode, Mouse, Screen
$RButton::
MouseGetPos xVal,yVal

;***Cure Spell***
;Player 1 Main Section
If (500<xVal) and (xVal<600) and (780<yVal) and (yVal<810)
{
Send {Numpad1}
Send {F1}
}
Else
;Player 2 Main Section
If (500<xVal) and (xVal<600) and (815<yVal) and (yVal<840)
{
Send {Numpad2}
Send {F1}
}
Else
;Player 3 Main Section
If (500<xVal) and (xVal<600) and (845<yVal) and (yVal<870)
{
Send {Numpad3}
Send {F1}
}
Else
;Player 4 Main Section
If (500<xVal) and (xVal<600) and (875<yVal) and (yVal<900)
{
Send {Numpad4}
Send {F1}
}
Else
;Player 5 Main Section
If (500<xVal) and (xVal<600) and (905<yVal) and (yVal<930)
{
Send {Numpad5}
Send {F1}
}
Else
;Player 6 Main Section
If (500<xVal) and (xVal<600) and (935<yVal) and (yVal<960)
{
Send {Numpad6}
Send {F1}
}
Else

;---If no coords match, use Rmouse as normal---
{
Send {RButton Down}
KeyWait RButton
Send {RButton Up}
}
Return

[darkzane]

You raise some good points. To respond:

(1) Generally speaking, melee-splashed Cleric builds are tricky to play and require a lot of situational awareness to play well. Not only are you chasing those stupid Kobolds up the walls, but you're also looking at party hitpoints, your own mana bar, and pressing a lot of buttons.

If you're not a skilled enough player, you're really only doing the battle thing OR the cleric thing. Not both. And you're not doing that one thing as well as a specialist might.

If you're particularly bad, you end up with your attention divided so many ways that you become useless and unable to do ANYTHING. At this point, you end up with your stone in a pool of lava, and five players swearing "I'll never PUG another one of those freaking Battle Clerics again."

After 12 levels of cleric:
- Pick the hardest hitting melee, preferably someone that hits the intimidate key occasionally.
- Click on ardor item or drink ardor potion
- Turn on RS aura
- Stand next to melee and hit things with vorpal / improved destruction / paralyzer, etc. (for boss fights switch to DR breaker)
- Occasionally hit burst and/or mass cure. Spot heal with a heal spell if somebody is out of range for some reason (caster grabbed some agro maybe?), usually between fights.
- May need to quickened mass heal in boss fights like Shroud, VoD. Keep auto attack on.
- Cast holy aura when swarmed to blind things.
- Keep recitation/prayer up (and light monk buffs if you have 3 levels of monk!)
- May have to remind people "stay together, be able to take care of yourself or die".
- Keep an eye out for lava pools for soul stone disposal

Not that hard.

Works in pugs unless somebody decides to be an action hero and tries to show off to solo but doesn't have the skill and gear to pull it off, hoping the divine babysitter will keep them up In which case hope for lava :)

Clerics should always be swinging something, even if you aren't "DPS" effects weapons like vorpal, banishing, destruction, cursespewing, paralyzer, etc. are always useful.

Aura doesn't do any good standing in the back.

[Yagi]

After 12 levels of cleric:
- Pick the hardest hitting melee, preferably someone that hits the intimidate key occasionally.
- Click on ardor item or drink ardor potion
- Turn on RS aura
- Stand next to melee and hit things with vorpal / improved destruction / paralyzer, etc. (for boss fights switch to DR breaker)
- Occasionally hit burst and/or mass cure. Spot heal with a heal spell if somebody is out of range for some reason (caster grabbed some agro maybe?), usually between fights.
- May need to quickened mass heal in boss fights like Shroud, VoD. Keep auto attack on.
- Cast holy aura when swarmed to blind things.
- Keep recitation/prayer up (and light monk buffs if you have 3 levels of monk!)
- May have to remind people "stay together, be able to take care of yourself or die".
- Keep an eye out for lava pools for soul stone disposal

Not that hard.

Works in pugs unless somebody decides to be an action hero and tries to show off to solo but doesn't have the skill and gear to pull it off, hoping the divine babysitter will keep them up In which case hope for lava :)

Clerics should always be swinging something, even if you aren't "DPS" effects weapons like vorpal, banishing, destruction, cursespewing, paralyzer, etc. are always useful.

Aura doesn't do any good standing in the back.

So you join pugs and grief new players for dying? That isnt you being smart, thats just you being a jackhole. If you're so perfect try educating them if it bothers you so much...or did you mean to log onto bnet instead?
Btw you forgot to randomly capitalize letters.

[Hellllboy]

Reason #2 lies at the feet of non-clerics. There are just some people out there who view clerics as nothing but their own personal healbots. Any actions other than healing your precious uber monster melee -- whether commanding ogres, taking out a room with BB, destructing that caster, or contributing with melee damage, are simply unwelcome. As far as these people are concerned, a cleric is there to stand back, shut up, and keep the heals coming, irrespective of the quest. In these cases, the problem isn't the battle cleric -- it's the narrow-minded person judging them.

This!

I could not agree more! :)

[Siro]

A little off topic, but how do you drop someone's stone in a lava pool? I've never had any luck pulling this off (which is really embarrassing when you fall into a lava pool yourself while trying to drop someone else in). The only time I can remember doing this successfully was when lava didn't do much damage (and it WAS really funny then because you could swim in it).

[EustaceTrevelyan]

In my opinion, the people who hate battle clerics don't want to be responsible for their own HP bar. They want someone who is going to just stand there and watch their health and heal them every single time they get low no matter what. These people are simply bad players and no cleric or other healer should pay any attention to their opinion.

Each player is responsible for their own HP. Characters who get agro when they can't handle it are not the cleric's problem. People need to know when to back out of combat, how to lose agro, carry pots & wands and stop wanting a babysitter. Everyone should contribute to the party in a variety of ways. It makes a much more valuable character. If any character is capable of healing, they should throw one out if they can see its needed. But with my Wizard I sure do love some Blade Barrier to go with my Firewall :) And clerics can help with the dps as well. Would be a shame if the cleric just stood at the back and healed.


/this, /QFT. +1 so well said. This isn't a statement against a healer role, but against bad, selfish players. It doesn't take much to help out, carry a few not very expensive pots and a stack of cheap ones. Plus, even non-melee specced "battle" clerics can be really useful with bursts/auras in the midst of the people giving a beatdown. SP only goes so far.

Still, even a bad cleric can push their cure and heal spell hotkeys, and a bad fighter/barb can try hitting things. They'll probably have enough hp to survive the aggro. The other dps classes really need some finesse to not suck, get aggro (which they can't take, being squishy-on average; leaving aside advanced players here), and get on a cleric's nerves. Getting on a cleric's last nerve is a good way to enjoy quests from inside a backpack.

[phalaeo]

That's the 17/2/1 cleric/fighter/barb? The build intrigues me and I might roll one up but need more info.

A couple things though, the WF FvS does nice damage, and I'm sure if I ever manage an eSoS it will be a big upgrade over my current weaponry, but they're not close in damage to a melee. I crit in the 100+ range (holy acid burst Green Steel), my level 14 thf pally can get an exhaulted smite crit for 250 with a bloody cleaver. My kensai is even more dps. Being able to BB kite does help some, but if I want real dps, I'm on my kensai, if she's on timer, I'm on my exploiter.

What it does bring to the table is enough dr to make most content a joke. Nothing like standing in sins and watching orthons pop you for 0 or 1 point of damage (and I only have 12 dr just standing as I wanted to keep extend).

Phalcon's Cleric crits for 220-ish, or did when I was allowed to play it. He says he's improved a lot over that DPS- not even sure what he crits for now.

[Noctus]

To realise the potential the Cleric class has, you need high situational awareness. This is the crux of the class. If you are new to the class/game - you wont have it. Its a very high attention and multitasking skill demanding playstyle. Keep one eye on the HP bars, one eye on the combat happening, one eye on the buffbar to see when you need to rebuff. (Yes thats three eye, one mor reason why many people dont realise the full potential ;):rolleyes: )

Clerics can dish out noticeable contributions to melee DPS in the time when simply noone needs a heal tossed, instead of wasting your actions with standing around dwiddling your thump until someone has a boo-boo you can cure.

Clerics can make the quest much smoother through good application of CC-spells. A Commanded Ogre hurts noone. A Destructed caster zaps noone. A Cometfalled bunch of enemys dont fight back while being wacked.

Clerics can dish out some nice spell-based damage once they get Cometfall and Blade Barrier at level 6.

Every Cleric has the potential to soloheal raids.




Now there are many who dont have a good situtational awareness. They can do only one thing good and thats healing, leading them to play the "Healbot" role. Which is a highly suboptimal playstyle in most content and groups. Its the easiest way of playing a cleric and still fulfilling the core role of the class.

The second step on the evolution ladder is the "Caster-Cleric", who heals the group and places some good CC-spells when appropriate. Much improved to the "Healbot"-playstyle as it can easily take the fangs out of many otherwise dangerously or costly fights to heal damage "preemptively" through timely removing of the damage source before it can dish it out.

Next step on the situational awareness ladder is the "Battlecleric" who combines healing the group with contributing to DPS. How much in absolute terms is irrelevant, as the Healbot contributes nothing. Its always a net gain.

The last step on the cleric evolution ladder is the "full-potential Cleric", who not only heals the group, adds to DPS, but also casts well placed CC- and damagespells when appropriate.



Its 90% about the player about how high his Cleric can climb on the evolution ladder. A succesfull cleric is most often not noticed by the group, after all everything went smooth and noone died. While a fail Cleric is noticed really fast, and some even fail at the "Healbot" step.

You´ll never play a succesfull "Battlecleric" if your multitasking skill and situational awareness arent high. Its all about what you can bring besides the absolute basics (keeping the DPS up so they can continue to DPS).

The Rogue who only does traps is the same kind ofplaystyle as the Cleric who only heals. Always so much less than they easily could be.

[BladedThesis]

Bah, battleclerics are just fine.

I play one and fill the role that is best depending on the party strength and the quest.

This is where most fail and people get that bad stereotype going.


If the party has plenty of dps, I just heal and whack things only when it will greatly benefit the party.

If the party lacks dps or isn't taking down the mobs fairly quickly, I'll add my blade into the mix.

It's not the build that fails, it's the player!! (As can be true for ANY build!!)

This ^ Adaptability FTW

[FlyingTurtle]

Now there are many who dont have a good situtational awareness. They can do only one thing good and thats healing, leading them to play the "Healbot" role. Which is a highly suboptimal playstyle in most content and groups. Its the easiest way of playing a cleric and still fulfilling the core role of the class.

The second step on the evolution ladder is the "Caster-Cleric", who heals the group and places some good CC-spells when appropriate. Much improved to the "Healbot"-playstyle as it can easily take the fangs out of many otherwise dangerously or costly fights to heal damage "preemptively" through timely removing of the damage source before it can dish it out.

Next step on the situational awareness ladder is the "Battlecleric" who combines healing the group with contributing to DPS. How much in absolute terms is irrelevant, as the Healbot contributes nothing. Its always a net gain.

The last step on the cleric evolution ladder is the "full-potential Cleric", who not only heals the group, adds to DPS, but also casts well placed CC- and damagespells when appropriate.


One thing I'd like to advise newbies is that even if you're piloting a battle cleric or advanced cleric build, that you don't have to stay at the higher rungs if it's a tricky quest or a poor party. Fall back down the rungs, maybe all the way down to "healbot". It may be less effective but it's better than trying to do too much and getting blamed for a party wipe (well, if you have to fall back then you're probably going to get wiped and blamed anyway, but you might as well make it a less stressful experience).

[Phidius]

After 12 levels of cleric:
- Pick the hardest hitting melee, preferably someone that hits the intimidate key occasionally.
- Click on ardor item or drink ardor potion
- Turn on RS aura
- Stand next to melee and hit things with vorpal / improved destruction / paralyzer, etc. (for boss fights switch to DR breaker)
- Occasionally hit burst and/or mass cure. Spot heal with a heal spell if somebody is out of range for some reason (caster grabbed some agro maybe?), usually between fights.
- May need to quickened mass heal in boss fights like Shroud, VoD. Keep auto attack on.
- Cast holy aura when swarmed to blind things.
- Keep recitation/prayer up (and light monk buffs if you have 3 levels of monk!)
- May have to remind people "stay together, be able to take care of yourself or die".
- Keep an eye out for lava pools for soul stone disposal

Not that hard.

Works in pugs unless somebody decides to be an action hero and tries to show off to solo but doesn't have the skill and gear to pull it off, hoping the divine babysitter will keep them up In which case hope for lava :)

Clerics should always be swinging something, even if you aren't "DPS" effects weapons like vorpal, banishing, destruction, cursespewing, paralyzer, etc. are always useful.

Aura doesn't do any good standing in the back.

So you join pugs and grief new players for dying? That isnt you being smart, thats just you being a jackhole. If you're so perfect try educating them if it bothers you so much...or did you mean to log onto bnet instead?
Btw you forgot to randomly capitalize letters.

I think you trolled the wrong person... darkzane didn't mention new players at all.

He/she/they did, however, mention one method for conserving resources when dealing with people who won't listen to instructions or work as a team. I don't recommend that method, as griefing players (even psychopathic players) is against the EULA.

It's usually sufficient to just leave their soul stone where it falls, and explain over party chat why you didn't raise them. Normally, the rest of the party will agree with you.

[darkforest]

This may be of interest:

Battle-clerics, clerics of all flavors, and paladins are welcome at new guild DIVINE MIGHT on Argonnessen.

You too can ditch your high level guild and with us your blue bar -truely- belongs to you.

Send a in game mail to 'Protect', 'Slaymany' for an invite. We prefer your main class icon to be cleric/paladin to maintain a healthy exclusivity of majority for the time being.

After all, we were formed after a lowbie PUG of six clerics.

Thanks and look forward to it.

[Yagi]

I think you trolled the wrong person... darkzane didn't mention new players at all.

He/she/they did, however, mention one method for conserving resources when dealing with people who won't listen to instructions or work as a team. I don't recommend that method, as griefing players (even psychopathic players) is against the EULA.

It's usually sufficient to just leave their soul stone where it falls, and explain over party chat why you didn't raise them. Normally, the rest of the party will agree with you.

He mentioned griefing people for dying, obviously that mostly means new folks. And I am not trolling, I have a very low opinion of people who grief in a pve game. Like you said, just leave em if their a problem. Nobody has any obligation to raise or corpse run anybody but making the stone irretrievable is petty grandstanding bs that has everything to do with getting attention and being spiteful and nothing to do with helping the party from a danger as the problem player is already a ghost.

[Vanquishedfo]

For me the problem has always been two fold here on DDO when it comes to the common issues surrounding clerics and other peoples expectations.

The first comes with the care bear/holy trinity mentality that springs from other MMOs. DDO has been one of a few to give a flexible multi class system, one that I and many other long time MMO players often spoke of wanting before DDO came out, typically after sessions of D&D while we might play some magic, or a console game before heading to our homes for the night.

Guild Wars did it first, but was an older game with limits like no jumping, something any PnP player who was only limited by imagination and bad luck when it came to doing amazing feats of acrobatics.

Yet it seemed one of DDOs largest issues was an influx of wowtards. Now alot use wow as an insult and for good reason as its the one about the mindless massive cookie cutter build MMO for those who couldnt cut it at a table top typically. However its amazing how few see that is what the vocal minority on the forums who preach min/max niche builds and perfectly balances parties actually are the wowtards who couldnt actually hack it in wow because they are not actually hard core enough, but here in DDO where the majority are casual P&P players are also casual mmo players, they want fun, creative, cleverly written content and to see more random elements even if as minor as different enemies being able to spawn in the same quests so each time we run it, isnt the exact same.


The other kind are simply selfish,cheap, pikers. They think if they make the most gimped build possible, as in a pure fighter or barb, who never carries his own buff pots, heal pots, and thinks totally sacking AC anywhere except end game is acceptable. If someone thinks taking every hit swung at them is a good way to play they are kidding themselves. Likewise if you want a healbot please do just grab a hireling, that in no way means you should bar other players using a cleric to its full abilities from your group. But if you somehow think another so called pure dps glass sword build mana sponge will be of more use, then go for it.

Some claim that is how thier PnP groups where, if so I am truly sorry for you, because at the tables I played upon DMs, sometimes several together, would run amazing campaigns with players frequently becoming seperated and forced to rely on themselves, and even turning on each other to become pvp opposition during quests. So really for me and those with similar pnp experiances, anyone suggesting each character bea specific little part of the greater machine that is the party, is not talking D&D they are talking WoW pure and simple.

Now with U9 alot of changes are doming, arcanes are going to be more reliable DPS, DPS is going to be the key aggro factor, meaning that just like in PnP those who dish it out have to deal with the hate. Never saw anything short off kender taunt actually be allowed by a DM to do more then cause minor distractions to enemies. And when the odd player did argue intimidate should let them hoarde mobs, they always found they died from friendly fireballs because it wasnt like the wizards gave two ***** about some moron paladin trying to play hero.

So hey you guys who want a nannybot, buy them and use them, deny player clerics who want to PLAY the game and not play watch the red bar. A class does not equal slave for others benefits. And if you put up LFMs for pugs either accept that the help others are willing to give is not going to be help you so you can shine more, or buy If a set of gold seals and roll alone. When I play a cleric I have a rule when I look for groups. If it says need healer or in fact need anything, I dont join them. If someone PMs me asking for a healer I Squelch them. And if I am in a group and someone who seems to take endless amounts of dmg, and be doing little more then playing mana sponge, starts demanding heals or buffs, I whisper the wiz and promise them endless healing if they hit the guy with a grease, or wait till some big caster boss to stand by the guy and pop a globe of invulnerability and run away laughing like a fiend.

Then when the cries for rez start I turn off the sound, switch to a guild only chat window, and talk with them while playing the quest as I know it needs to be done, and let the rest do what they do best they can or be damned, and win the day, while typically one or more pure fighter types lays in the field as a stone. See we all have our expectations of others, mine are that every player by a given level have a certain amount of useful situation gear like a set of improved res items by lvl 6-8 etc. and always one bag devoted fully to buff and heal pots. If you dont, your a piker pure and simple. Unless your a total newb with little funding, then be civil, and friendly to find a helpful veteran or guild to play patron to you.

[Duagrim]

There are really great battle clerics out there. Mostly they are called Paladins.

Nothing wrong with a really well played battle cleric; nothing good about about one played poorly. There is very little middle ground here. I have played with battle clerics that left me a bit awestruck and hero worshipping (Think Paleale, a sort of demigod player from Khyber). Most I have played with are neither fish nor fowl nor good red herring. They don't do anything very well. It's the player, not the class, but this class is not so forgiving as others.

Bottom line is that if you are a true A+ player, go ahead and be a battle cleric. If, like me, you are a solid B type ham-and-egger, give us all a break and go FS or pally.

[Phidius]

He mentioned griefing people for dying, obviously that mostly means new folks. And I am not trolling, I have a very low opinion of people who grief in a pve game. Like you said, just leave em if their a problem. Nobody has any obligation to raise or corpse run anybody but making the stone irretrievable is petty grandstanding bs that has everything to do with getting attention and being spiteful and nothing to do with helping the party from a danger as the problem player is already a ghost.

Ha! You obviously haven't played with me... I die all the time, and I've been playing heavily since 2007 (started in 2006, but was distracted by my hobby at the time).

Heck, I was one of those "decides to be an action hero and tries to show off to solo but doesn't have the skill and gear to pull it off" just last month (or so) in a zerg Coal Chamber. Thankfully, all I had to endure was a little hooting and finger-pointing :D

Lava pools do not make soul stones irretrievable - they just send a message.

[der_kluge]

I'd call your first example an advanced cleric, or perhaps a melee-capable cleric. Of course, when someone in the party dies, if that cleric was EVER seen in melee, he/she becomes known to the dead party member as "that ____ing battle cleric."

I really see your second example as a straw man. There are very powerful battle-cleric builds out there, that do cause a great deal of damage -- and can still heal well. Comparing their dps to a well-built barbarian is missing the point. If that was the case, why roll a barbarian? Now, is the dps of a well-built battle cleric enough to contribute solidly to the party's damage-dealing, and bring down mobs faster? You bet. Now, why do you think that person deserves hate?

I don't think that person deserves hate - but I think the word "battle cleric" to describe them is probably misguided. That's just a "cleric". That's standard PnP vanilla stuff right there.

[Iwinbyrollup]

There are really great battle clerics out there. Mostly they are called Paladins.

Most paladins aren't going to solo-heal a PUG Shroud.

And yes, Shroud is not difficult content, but I emphasize it because it can be easily solo-healed by a rather poorly-equipped battlecleric and because it generally requires multiple target healing (i.e., you can't get away with using Heal scrolls or other single-target healing).

[Siro]

Most paladins aren't going to solo-heal a PUG Shroud.

And yes, Shroud is not difficult content, but I emphasize it because it can be easily solo-healed by a rather poorly-equipped battlecleric and because it generally requires multiple target healing (i.e., you can't get away with using Heal scrolls or other single-target healing).

I seem to recall that a group of paladins did the Shroud with no other classes present... But yeah, point made. I've solo healed Shroud as a poorly equipped cleric. With U9, it'll get even easier as cure mass spells are reduced in casting cost.

[Iwinbyrollup]

I seem to recall that a group of paladins did the Shroud with no other classes present... But yeah, point made. I've solo healed Shroud as a poorly equipped cleric. With U9, it'll get even easier as cure mass spells are reduced in casting cost.

I completely believe the first sentence is possible; I mentioned PUG Shroud to kinda ruin the possibility of special circumstances. When everyone is self-healing to some degree or another, a paladin can keep themselves alive for a decent amount of time. I was talking more about the general PUG approach: everyone move into the center and hit Harry while being mostly oblivious to their HP total while one or two people take care of keeping their HPs up. That this is far from an ideal approach is evident, but being able to work around non-ideal scenarios is a sign of a good character. (At the very least, it's nice when players pay attention to their red bars and do something in severe situations. The problem is that since heals are generally targeted on the group, backing out can often lead to a quicker death than staying in)

I love paladins, don't get me wrong. I just think calling them a battlecleric doesn't do justice to paladins or battleclerics. My WF FvS's first life was a battlecleric that did fairly low DPS but could also heal a Shroud. I mean, on my other cleric, I generally spend several seconds in between each Mass Heal pretty much doing nothing but deciding when to fire off another one. The only reason I don't melee Harry even with my 14 Strength (that's with a +6 item) is because I don't want to risk dying (generally this isn't a huge threat but I figure a 500 HP melee dying is less dangerous than a 500 HP cleric, especially if solo-healing); otherwise, if I'm going to be just standing around, why not swing a weapon instead? Damage is damage, if someone is going to grind to get the Epic Claw set or Litany of the Dead for a small increase in damage per hit, why complain about an additional person doing more damage per hit than that gain you're getting? If everyone is staying alive, it sounds like things are working.

[RumbIe]

Well I've run many a quest with self proclaimed and un-proclaimed battle clerics and it is an equal part build and player issue.

I've run with good players with battle cleric builds that did a fine job healing and I was skeptical to start. We indeed looked for them to heal the party and they did just fine. I have been on other runs where the cleric took care of themselves and didn't heal much at all. The former I ran with told me to stop potting and topping myself off as they would do it (which I view as my own responsibility) all the while healing and tossing out some dps occasionally and was an "eye opener" on good battle cleric attitude and the latter bragged about kill count, wouldn't heal others and kept dying which was an "eye closer (?)" on battle cleric attitude. I swear I just ran with one on my bard and I healed the party more than they did.

So I have come to the conclusion that as with any class it is equal parts player (i.e. will heal and play a team role in a party) and build (either it's a good build and CAN do what is required or a bad build and CANNOT do what is required). Of course some builds no matter how good a player is may not be a good build to play in a party.

Regardless I see a lot of talk about 17/2/1 cleric/monk/fighter builds and it intrigued me enough to roll one to play for myself and come up with an opinion based on personal experience rather than hearsay. However after about 45 minutes of searching I could only find one build and it was for a half elf, while I was hoping for a human 32 point build (Haven't bought HElf yet). I've also found tons of cleric/monk/rogue builds and 18/2 builds, but several here have posted (and other Battle Cleric threads) how great their cl/monk/ftr build is so I'd like to see it and take it for a spin. Would anyone be so kind as to post one up (or rather link it)? I'm sure someone will be quick to point out how easily and fast they found it in a search, but hey what can I say. Maybe I'm not as awesome as them. Or if the HElf build works with a human and what would be switched out.

Thanks in advance.

[BOgre]

My main toon is an 'unbongwah Tempest Trapmonkey', rng18/rog1/ftr1, I've been here only since Jan/2011, and this toon is only lvl10. Just saying I'm not very experienced. This ranger is not bad as a starter toon, he can solo at-level really nicely, and is able to contribute to groups. I usually play with one friend, and we duo or duo+hireling just about everything without dying, except for the odd quest on elite that we don't know well, or that is just too tough for us newbs at-level.

I'm giving this background because it casts its own color on my experience with my 2nd toon, who is currently 4clr/1ftr. Since this toon is far behind my other, and so isn't suitable to duo with my buddy, I mostly solo her. Now, I realize that quest difficulty scales, so solo is lots easier that when a big group is in, but still, I don't seem to be having any trouble at all playing the role of healer and fighter at once. She has decent crowd control, good healing, decent hp and ac, and most at-level mobs die in one swing or two.

So the few pugs I've joined I've had no trouble healing the party members that need it, (at this stage I have no mass heals), healing myself, cc'ing, and swinging my axe. Okay, I know things will get more difficult later on, but really, how much more difficult can it be? Like, one must be a REALLY bad player, or have a REALLY bad build to not be able to play an 18clr/2ftr (or similarly splashed cleric) decently.
Here's a question for the pure clerics out there: If you're not in the thick of things, and plan to just hang back and heal only, Why do have weapons and armor? I dunno, it just seems kind of a boring way to go to just stand there and be a heal-bot, no?

[darkzane]

So you join pugs and grief new players for dying? That isnt you being smart, thats just you being a jackhole. If you're so perfect try educating them if it bothers you so much...or did you mean to log onto bnet instead?
Btw you forgot to randomly capitalize letters.

Tip from another "helpful" forum poster in a thread I started about letting people in your party die if they are being idiots.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3631472&postcount=107

I'll work on the random capital letters. Do you type things out and then go back and edit the letters in or just mash the shift key at random? Looking forward to your input.

[taurean430]

My main toon is an 'unbongwah Tempest Trapmonkey', rng18/rog1/ftr1, I've been here only since Jan/2011, and this toon is only lvl10. Just saying I'm not very experienced. This ranger is not bad as a starter toon, he can solo at-level really nicely, and is able to contribute to groups. I usually play with one friend, and we duo or duo+hireling just about everything without dying, except for the odd quest on elite that we don't know well, or that is just too tough for us newbs at-level.

I'm giving this background because it casts its own color on my experience with my 2nd toon, who is currently 4clr/1ftr. Since this toon is far behind my other, and so isn't suitable to duo with my buddy, I mostly solo her. Now, I realize that quest difficulty scales, so solo is lots easier that when a big group is in, but still, I don't seem to be having any trouble at all playing the role of healer and fighter at once. She has decent crowd control, good healing, decent hp and ac, and most at-level mobs die in one swing or two.

So the few pugs I've joined I've had no trouble healing the party members that need it, (at this stage I have no mass heals), healing myself, cc'ing, and swinging my axe. Okay, I know things will get more difficult later on, but really, how much more difficult can it be? Like, one must be a REALLY bad player, or have a REALLY bad build to not be able to play an 18clr/2ftr (or similarly splashed cleric) decently.
Here's a question for the pure clerics out there: If you're not in the thick of things, and plan to just hang back and heal only, Why do have weapons and armor? I dunno, it just seems kind of a boring way to go to just stand there and be a heal-bot, no?

As you gain levels the enemy mob hit points and damage output scale up. It's pretty common to be able to run the lower level content and get a big surprise come Gianthold and forward. I recall that one of my first major wake up calls for my first toon was stepping into the slayer area there. I was shocked as a new player at the amount of damage they were doing when they hit my character. Part of the learning curve on healing involves not as much personal adaptation to the change. It involves being able to support a party with members that may or may not be prepared for that change. The Ogre pair in Shan to Kor are not the same as the Ogres found in that slayer area so to speak. The devils in the vale are not the devils in Amrath, and so on...

As was mentioned situational awareness is key. An aware divine will know exactly what that raging Ogre in Gianthold is about to do to Squishy McSquish and his cohorts. One of my favorite sayings when people yell at me for making myself the biggest target in those situations is that there is a time to steal aggro. Sure, squishy is upset that he has to chase the Ogre to kill it. But he would have been much more upset to take nearly twice his health in damage from one attack chain. Only the most rude of Squishy's Cohorts are allowed to kill themselves by drawing aggro they can't handle unknowingly. Some of them only start to pay attention to the importance of fortification and such by being turned to paste.

[BOgre]

As was mentioned situational awareness is key.

Yes, I see what you mean for sure. Already there are any number of quests that i can breeze through now that I know them, where I was easily killed before, because I had no clue. Knowing what spells to prep, what weapons to use, etc., is crucial. But doesn't that just support the good player/awful player point of view? I mean one has to be pretty dangin awful not to be able to learn how to play a particular quest.

Like after hitting that giant a zillion times without doing any damage while his elementals kill you MIGHT make you want to try to kill the elementals first? bingo, his DR dissappears, but now he heals... hmmm, maybe the other set of ellies has something to do with that?... Or if one can't figure it out, there's the Wiki...

So the point remains valid then that there's no reason a cleric can't fight. In fact, a good cleric WILL fight, and draw aggro and control crowds and all that great stuff, as necessary, situationally. A pure heal-bot isn't really a good cleric. (IMO of course)

[elixer1]

Dude, I feel your pain.

I was on my clonk and there was a FvS in the group (Gwylan's elite) I have been CCing melee'ing and healing the whole quest and the FvS comments on there only being one healer in the party.

M: How do you figure there's only one healer in the party?
F: You have monk levels you're more of a battlecleric.
M: Really, you know my build huh?
F: cleric/monks aren't new, you need to take more monk levels. (I have 3 already....)
M: That just shows you don't know anything about my build.

So we continue to roll through the quest with this FvS not doing anything but standing around and throwing the occasional heal.

So then I get into a TS run, and the lead invites this same FvS and he starts telling the party I'm a "battle-cleric" not a healer. ***? So I assure the party leader I am a prificient cleric and know when to cast, when to fight, and when to heal. Thankfully he listened to me, but I was pretty ticked at the c0ck-bl0cking FvS...

sigh...I have so much to look forward too with my clonker (Ftr2/Mnk3/Clr15) currently at 2/3/7. I have already resigned myself to never getting into a shroud unless I'm running it (.... and even then...sigh). My DPS is perfectly decent and the amount free continuous healing I'll be doing will be significant and as long as I'm keeping up the DPS portion of the bargain (whirling steel, centered, Divine power, Divine Might, and all two weapon fighting feats) and don't pretend to be a healer (up front with the LFM) I hope I'll be able to get into a few parties. The concept was to do consistent mass healing for about 150 points a tic (I'm at 80 right now), and lighten the load partially for the primary healer. I can solo level appropriate stuff no problem, and I'm still working out the party mechanic (although they figure out if they want consistent healing to stay near me). Good thing I have 5 other toons running the shroud regularly.

Anyhow.... just some self pitying post... sorry I made you read it.

[LordPiglet]

There are really great battle clerics out there. Mostly they are called Paladins.

Nothing wrong with a really well played battle cleric; nothing good about about one played poorly. There is very little middle ground here. I have played with battle clerics that left me a bit awestruck and hero worshipping (Think Paleale, a sort of demigod player from Khyber). Most I have played with are neither fish nor fowl nor good red herring. They don't do anything very well. It's the player, not the class, but this class is not so forgiving as others.

Bottom line is that if you are a true A+ player, go ahead and be a battle cleric. If, like me, you are a solid B type ham-and-egger, give us all a break and go FS or pally.

Paladins are not a battle cleric (melee oriented cleric). Paladins have a much worse spell selection, a lot fewer spells However, I do agree that many people running divines and refusing to heal would be better off running a paladin. Paladins have a much worse spell selection, a lot fewer spells. My guild leader ran a FvS realized he was not happy and didn't want to do any sort of group healing, so he got to cap and tr'd and is happier now.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

edit: apparently this is worth negative rep.
lol

Some people just get mad when you roll a cleric that doesn't have to be their personal healbot.

[darkzane]

Some people just get mad when you roll a cleric that doesn't have to be their personal healbot.

+1

Can I use this as my signature? :)

[Noctus]

I seem to recall that a group of paladins did the Shroud with no other classes present... But yeah, point made. I've solo healed Shroud as a poorly equipped cleric. With U9, it'll get even easier as cure mass spells are reduced in casting cost.


It was also done by a pure Barbarian group on Argo (and i missed it by 2 hours :( ). Doesnt mean that Barbarian has decent healing abilities .... ;):p

[Noctus]

There are really great battle clerics out there. Mostly they are called Paladins.

The healing ability of Paladins is nowhere near that of Battlelerics. They dont even play the same game, so to speak.

How many Paladins can keep the whole group healed alone in at-level content, or soloheal raids?

[Canopenner]

The healing ability of Paladins is nowhere near that of Battlelerics. They dont even play the same game, so to speak.

How many Paladins can keep the whole group healed alone in at-level content, or soloheal raids?

I have built and geared pally to be cleric before and it really does work ok...you really got to know when to let people die tho...

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

+1

Can I use this as my signature? :)

Absolutely.

I try not to get touchy about classes and builds, but I guess I have a soft spot for battle clerics.

[hityawithastick]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=312988

[Duagrim]

The healing ability of Paladins is nowhere near that of Battlelerics. They dont even play the same game, so to speak.

How many Paladins can keep the whole group healed alone in at-level content, or soloheal raids?

Well, this is kind of my point. Most people who play battleclerics can't or won't be responsible for healing the group. They are focused on melee or casting. For those folks, who after all are the folks who get battleclerics their bad name, I'd suggest they go Pally or FS, who are better at melee than clerics (or can be) and still do a bit of healing on the side. My own 20th level melee FS has healed for many a Shroud, but is quite capable of mixing it up as a melee if there's another healer around.

[Noctus]

Well, this is kind of my point. Most people who play battleclerics can't or won't be responsible for healing the group. They are focused on melee or casting. For those folks, who after all are the folks who get battleclerics their bad name, I'd suggest they go Pally or FS, who are better at melee than clerics (or can be) and still do a bit of healing on the side. My own 20th level melee FS has healed for many a Shroud, but is quite capable of mixing it up as a melee if there's another healer around.

Okay, point for you. Under these conditions their choice of class was a mistake. These players should then TR/reroll into a better suited build for their target playstyle.

[Natashaelle]

i understand people think battle clerics are "fail"
i dont understand why.

as long as hey have 17 levels of cleric, they should still be able to heal

imo, a battlecleric is only fail if they dont heal the party.
then they're a fail dps.

This is a simplistic view of things, as not every battle cleric build will have 17+ levels of cleric, not every battle cleric will use the same tactics, and not every battle cleric will be focused on healing people.

The 12/6/2 builds are quite popular for example, and whilst they can heal fairly well in the non-epics, you just cannot expect them to pull their full weight as healers -- and depending on how they are built, they will either be support DPS or good DPS. If you are expecting them to heal, then it's your expectations that are inaccurate...

IMO most "battle clerics" that people have are in fact mêlée-capable healers, which is a perfectly fine rôle to play.

A battle cleric is a toon that tries to balance mêlée (or rarely ranged) with healing ; requires (and provides) survivability ; and the exact balance between the two is actually the players' personal choice, not something required of him or her.

One of the biggest problems is actually with some party leaders who fail to fully understand what "I am not a healer" actually means. They seem to *think* that it means "I heal often", whereas in fact it actually means what it says.

I am having a very frustrating experience with some people who make an epic raid group -- I say I am not a healer, but then we go in with only 2 healers instead of 3 for instance, because they haven't understood what I said. So then, I get forced into healing mode, which is sub-standard, waste my resources, and we wipe, because the leader falsely imagined that "not a healer" meant its precise opposite.

Or alternatively, in a 6-man epic, I say I'm not a healer, then the leader gets no healer at all for the party, and falsely imagines that a fully mêlée-focused battle cleric can keep the party alive. This is easier, cos that means that the group leader clearly has a dodgy idea about group building, and I can just drop the group instead...

What _I_ can't understand is how some party leaders can imagine that someone with 6 to 8 mêlée levels is going to be anything other than a mêlée toon...

[Natashaelle]

if the lfm is looking for a healer, do you think they will be happy with a back up healer? It would be best to send a tell to the party learder and tell them you want to fill a dps spot or even a caster spot, but ymmv. If you answer an lfm for a healer, and that is not your primary focus, you will upset the leader and help to promote the stereotype you are defending.

Clearly.

[pSINNa]

I see a lot of comments here that seem to be either for or against letting 'battle clerics' or 'battle fvs' into various groups.

This seems pretty strange to me.

A well played, geared and built divine can solo any quest in the game, and some variants are infamous for being able to solo raids as well (raids don't 'scale' either just in case anyone was in doubt on that issue).

I think you'll find most experienced players that specialise in divine characters aren't really worried about what anyone putting up a lfm thinks about their build, whether it be concern over how many fighter/monk/barb/whatever levels they have on a character carrying a majority of divine class levels.

Those players are putting up their own lfm's and zooming through the quests and/or raids with whoever cares to join them when they are not pitting themselves and their build concept against the game at whatever level they have managed to play to.

As regards joining raids and epic runs on those characters, i'll think you'll find the players reputation will have more to do with them being accepted if they're jumping on a lfm for something they're not leading themselves.

If you're known to be able to the do the job, you'll get the spot you want, and no-one will care what class split you've rolled out to suit your personal play style.

It's a matter of perspective. If you fight and heal, and are good at it, if you know the quests and the raids, and demonstrate that consistently, does it matter anymore that some people think that 'battle divine's fail'?

I don't think so. :)

Coit out~

[Natashaelle]

There are really great battle clerics out there. Mostly they are called Paladins.

A Paladin is nothing like a battle cleric.

[Gremmlynn]

Just don't join a group that's looking for a healer if you are a battle cleric. Just my experience..... :)Don't join it if you are any type of cleric IMO. Looking for a healer is synonymous with looking for a baby sitter and scape goat in my experience and not worth the grief.

[HAL]

I don't have a "Battle Cleric" but my Cleric hits stuff :) She has full plate and the ability to use weapons so I don't know why she wouldn't. My Wiz hits stuff too.

I suppose "Battle Clerics" must be tweaked specifically to be better at melee than your average Cleric, which might take resources away from healing. But I mostly use Radiant with splashes of spells. Idk if it makes more of a difference at 20.

[thegreatneil]

I have a Battle cleric.

Made for fighting, For a certain build type.

I never claim to be a healer with him.

If you have 17 levels of cleric (18 FVS), you can (and should) heal. (with heals or preemptive healing**)




**CC and insta-kill