Instead of nerfing FW why not improve AI?

[Canopenner]

Like maybe program the monster to not run face first into AoE spell 30 times?

Also Id like to see better monster casters buffing monster tanks. Is there a monster that hastes itself and its mob?

[AMDarkwolf]

Like maybe program the monster to not run face first into AoE spell 30 times?

Also Id like to see better monster casters buffing monster tanks. Is there a monster that hastes itself and its mob?

Suggestion been here before, been stomped down before, and will again.

Basically its 'too much work'

Rather make mobs have insane high health, make spells that do **** damage, instead of putting a line of code that says 'If im standing in a wall of fraking fire, move out of wall of fraking fire' (Apparently this would crash the servers cuz its just SO MUCH programing)

[Canopenner]

I just think it would make the game about a million times better, Kinda stupid running mob through 3 puddles of Ck for 3 mins.

So they add con to mobs but not int? LOL

[PwnHammer40K]

instead of putting a line of code that says 'If im standing in a wall of fraking fire, move out of wall of fraking fire' (Apparently this would crash the servers cuz its just SO MUCH programing)If you think a line of code is all it'll take, then Cyberdyne Systems are hiring.

[Canopenner]

If you think a line of code is all it'll take, then Cyberdyne Systems are hiring.

there is some sort of avoidance system in place already...whatever makes the kob shammies and the undead archers jump away from melees...

[AMDarkwolf]

a easy, dirty fix is simple: IF im taking damage, I take 3 steps away from my original location. reset every 5 seconds.

So basically, if the mob takes damage over time(firewall, cloud kill, etc) and is not intimated, or actively attacking, it just moves a few steps away, like he said above, how kobolds react(by leaping backwards if there's a threat in front of them)

It isn't a lot of coding to implement, the problem, if its not the program YOU wrote, is finding exactly WHERE to put those few lines of code. THAT'S the problem.

[Canopenner]

a easy, dirty fix is simple: IF im taking damage, I take 3 steps away from my original location. reset every 5 seconds.

So basically, if the mob takes damage over time(firewall, cloud kill, etc) and is not intimated, or actively attacking, it just moves a few steps away, like he said above, how kobolds react(by leaping backwards if there's a threat in front of them)

It isn't a lot of coding to implement, the problem, if its not the program YOU wrote, is finding exactly WHERE to put those few lines of code. THAT'S the problem.

seems a way better fix than nerfing FW every 2 years.

[Tom318]

a easy, dirty fix is simple: IF im taking damage, I take 3 steps away from my original location. reset every 5 seconds.

Away in which direction? and do you really want to poll the thing every five seconds? that's going to increase latency, increase database queries, increase traffic...

one poll every 5 seconds for 10,000 people = 10,000 extra database queries every five seconds. 10,000 extra packets (if we're lucky) every five seconds. Plus it uses UDP and so will have custom error-correction routines which will have to be called another 10,000 times every five seconds...

[xxHazexx]

Like maybe program the monster to not run face first into AoE spell 30 times?

Also Id like to see better monster casters buffing monster tanks. Is there a monster that hastes itself and its mob?

I believe the occasional barbazu and the flesh golems receive partial haste effects.

[elujin]

a easy, dirty fix is simple: IF im taking damage, I take 3 steps away from my original location. reset every 5 seconds.

So basically, if the mob takes damage over time(firewall, cloud kill, etc) and is not intimated, or actively attacking, it just moves a few steps away, like he said above, how kobolds react(by leaping backwards if there's a threat in front of them)

It isn't a lot of coding to implement, the problem, if its not the program YOU wrote, is finding exactly WHERE to put those few lines of code. THAT'S the problem.

programming is never easy or quick

[Ryiah]

one poll every 5 seconds for 10,000 people = 10,000 extra database queries every five seconds. 10,000 extra packets (if we're lucky) every five seconds. Plus it uses UDP and so will have custom error-correction routines which will have to be called another 10,000 times every five seconds...

What makes you assume it uses the database to keep track of creatures in the instances? I suspect it simply keeps them in system memory for those that are active. This reasoning comes from the fact that the instances are all reset when the server is taken down and brought back up after maintenance. If instances were stored in the database instead of just in memory, this likely wouldn't happen the few times the servers have crashed.

[Daunth]

So the mob steps away for 5 seconds (after having already been hit), doesn't do anything if no ranged attacks are possible, and then dives into the firewall again, rinse and repeat.

And much efforts, devs' hours of work (because you don't just put a line and everything is done, you know...), server calculations... for that!


I'm quite sure some dev is laughing at this right now.

[xPhoxhoundx]

Is there a monster that hastes itself and its mob?


Trolls, Ogres, Flesh Golems.... Oh and those )!&%)ing bards in 3BC.

[Razcar]

Suggestion been here before, been stomped down before, and will again.

Basically its 'too much work'

AI programming is complicated, but I think the real problem is performance. Since DDO already has collision detection - which few other MMOs have - already lots of performance is used for the mobs to find their way around each other. And the more decisions all the mobs have to make in finding their way to you - not only avoiding to get stuck and blocked by other mobs, but also navigating the nooks and crannies of a narrow dungeon strewn with objects - the more costly it is for the server. And the higher the cost, the more lag.

If mobs also would have to take short-lasting dynamic spell effects into account in their "thinking", maybe it would just cause too much lag, especially when large numbers of mobs are activated.

As for "realism", that it is stupid that the mobs spend time in harmful enemy spell effects, you just need to join any random pug and you will see players happily running in and out of enemy blader barriers or wall of fires until they die themselves. But I suppose that AI is unfixable :P

[phillymiket]

Players would exploit any change making all the work moot.

If mobs had too much avoidance to AOEs players would just zerg down hallways blocking them with firewalls until they were far enough away to not draw the agro anymore.

If mobs moved by reflex too often based on players actions players would bug them out so they just bopped around never settling down to attack or cast a spell.

Keep in mind players will seek out any little foible in the AI and use it to their advantage so simple is better often.

Please don't confuse this attempted counter to the suggestion of more AI avoidance with a support of firewalls and blade barriers not being able to be extended.

I liked me my FWs BBs the way they were dag nami.

As far as casters buffing, it makes it easier sometimes to defeat them.

I love when you run into a caster and he first casts Cat's Grace on himself, as if the +2 to AC is going to save him from me. :)
The caster is just giving me the few extra moments to set up the kill.
Players go into the fight pre-buffed and that's a distinct advantage.
Haste is different and you have a point.

Maybe if mobs were better buffed and prepared to start.
It's kind of funny that a creature with ears wouldn't hear a battle replete with explosions and screaming, bloody death a few rooms away and have fair warning when you open the door.

[Ginetti]

seems a way better fix than nerfing FW every 2 years.

If you program mobs to step back from firewall if taking damage - they they do so, and still need to get to caster, so they'll run into it again, step back, again.

It'll be the same, but slower.

[Beethoven]

It's out of the same maliciousness car manufacturers refuse to give us an actual auto-pilot and make us drive their product ourselves, or militaries around the globe putting actual life's on the line instead of just sending fully automated drones and robots.

Saying why not make an artificial intelligence with the capability to make split second decisions is one thing, actually coding it is whole different matter. And even if Turbine could pull it off there are two problems: 1. why would they continue bother with the game if they could make a fortune by just selling their research? 2. Look at the uproar about them changing only the duration (with a somewhat minor change to damage). What would make them think a change making the spell effectively worthless would be more welcome?

See it that way: we (relative) recently had big headline news about a chess computer actually beating a human chess champion. Experts generally agreed this was some extremely sophisticated hardware and software. Now, let's look at the difference between chess and ddo's active combat:

1. Chess has a static environment consisting of 64 squares arranged in an 8 x 8 grid. There are no environmental effects and obstacles restricting movement of chess pieces. DDO's landscape is vastly different and indefinitely more complex.
2. Chess figures each have only one mode of movement (in speed, direction and distance per turn) which is entirely two dimensional. DDO's "pieces" have numerous ways of moving (in speed, direction and distance per second) and is semi 3 dimensional (you can't fly but you can jump).
3. Chess pieces have one mode of attack (occupy the same square as an enemy piece). DDO's mobs have numerous modes of attack (range, spells, special attacks, melee).
4. Chess is generally played by two players only where each player only gets to move one piece at a time. DDO has six to twelve players moving the same time in each encounter, not to mention how many players move their "pieces" across the entire server. The AI often has dozens of pieces to move (the same time).
5. Chess computers have an indefinite amount of time (in programming terms as five seconds is quite a lot for code) to calculate their next move. DDO hardly could pause an instance (or entire server) for a few seconds /every/ time the computer moves a mob.

So, if you look at the difference of variables involved it should be fairly obvious why programming a chess computer to act halfway intelligent is significantly easier than an MMORPG AI in a game using real time combat. Now we basically want to add an ability for the AI to make decision comparable to a human? It's exactly what it'd take though.

You cannot just include a tid-bit to path around CC/firewalls (or only take a couple of steps in a random direction) since it just break things the other way. Mobs start acting like this and all it'd take is for someone to drag a bunch in a corner and box them in with two firewalls (you could even put them close enough for mobs to still take damage). The mobs are no longer path through the firewalls, they cannot go the other way since there are physical walls (corner, remember) and they end up just stand there and burn. It'd be a lot of work for effectively making firewalls more useful again and mobs act no more intelligent then they do now.

Also, you couldn't implement such code on general basis as it would break fights such as the final encounter in ToD. No need to have a tank on Horoth, just use firewalls to trap him in a corner while the entire group goes after Sully.

[baletraeger]

Monsters, NPCs (excluding Coyle), and Hirelings are all less intelligent than the majority of players right now; even to update AI to tell them not to run through AoE/Traps/etc would take them over that threshold, at which point in time the mid-pubescent male squeaking of "this game is too hard" would grow exponentially to server lag.

Let's agree to disagree, an then agree to leave AI as is, and be thankful that at least players (sometimes) know how to pike.

[Dexol]

http://blog.monkeypotion.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/path-of-life-or-easy-path.jpg

[Ginetti]

http://blog.monkeypotion.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/path-of-life-or-easy-path.jpg

because you used a picture to make your point, it is that much more valid.

[PwnHammer40K]

because you used a picture to make your point, it is that much more valid.It looks photoshopped to me.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

Like maybe program the monster to not run face first into AoE spell 30 times?

Also Id like to see better monster casters buffing monster tanks. Is there a monster that hastes itself and its mob?

1) Caster drops a firewall

2) Mobs run away and come back when it times out

3) Players give mad props to the devs for not nerfing firewall

:confused:

Having the mobs smart enough to stay out of the firewall would be a bigger nerf than anything the devs have ever done.

[PwnHammer40K]

Having the mobs smart enough to stay out of the firewall would be a bigger nerf than anything the devs have ever done.

Wait, is the sky blue too? :eek:

[Doxmaster]

Wait, is the sky blue too? :eek:

Well...kind of.

It easiest to call it blue.

[Qezuzu]

Last night, in a guild Epic Chrono, a blinded Tiefling Acolyte actually kited the DPS through her little red Blade Barrier.

If player intelligence can't handle it I'm not too sure we need to improve the artificial intelligence.

[Canopenner]

1) Caster drops a firewall

2) Mobs run away and come back when it times out

3) Players give mad props to the devs for not nerfing firewall

:confused:

Having the mobs smart enough to stay out of the firewall would be a bigger nerf than anything the devs have ever done.

Im not saying the monster needs to avoid FW and the such like the plague...But its dumb that I can can just kite monsters through the stuff over and over again and they just keep running out and running into it.

Just totally non realistic and any monster with 6 in should be able to figure out "hey that hurts"...

as for lag issues resulting form monster thinking "hey that hurt" and not walking into AoE spell...I already get lag at least hourly...whole party will collectively say sometimes "lag". And this is on Orien most recently.

its not a nerf to FW to make the monsters smarter.

[mournbladereigns]

It looks photoshopped to me.

I can tell, from some of the pixels, and having seen quite a few shops in my time.

[Thrudh]

You guys really aren't thinking it through...

I can think of multiple ways to exploit a critter who won't pass through a firewall or who jumps back everytime he's hit by one...

They'd have to give every critter a hard-hitting ranged attack...

And now you've "saved" firewall by making it (and all other AOE spells) completely worthless.

[suszterpatt]

On one hand, the argument that AI improvements are expensive (in more than one sense of the word) is a very convincing one from a management point of view. Let's not lose sight of the fact that Turbine is ultimately out to make a profit off this game.


On the other hand, when a group of trolls will happily stand inside a FW'd doorway and not attack any of the 5 people blocking said doorway because they're trying to get to the caster behind them, and they keep doing this for minutes straight, that's where gameplay sort of implodes. At that point, you don't need to have a great build or good gear, you just need to know the AI quirks that turn mobs suicidal.

[Canopenner]

You guys really aren't thinking it through...

I can think of multiple ways to exploit a critter who won't pass through a firewall or who jumps back everytime he's hit by one...

They'd have to give every critter a hard-hitting ranged attack...

And now you've "saved" firewall by making it (and all other AOE spells) completely worthless.

I dont give a poo about "saving firewall"(most overused spell in the game IMHO) and they do not need to give each monster a hard hitting ranged attack...players will still want to kill said monster as fast as possible and will follow it out of the FW I promise. Heck half the time now people dont fight monsters in FW.

And Im not saying that you wont be able to exploit new AI either...but old one is definitely exploitable and the result is a really stoopid monster who wont even stay in the AeO spell to get hit by just the timer...no it will run in and out of the AoE and get hit alot more...its just plain dumb...

[Gkar]

Suggestion been here before, been stomped down before, and will again.

Basically its 'too much work'

Rather make mobs have insane high health, make spells that do **** damage, instead of putting a line of code that says 'If im standing in a wall of fraking fire, move out of wall of fraking fire' (Apparently this would crash the servers cuz its just SO MUCH programing)

Ok, now what does the next line of code say when a firewall is dropped cutting off direct access to the party (say at a doorway) and the 11 arcane archers in the raid proceed, in complete safety, to pew pew at will Mr. Raid boss (or even trash).

Now what's the AI do when you put them against a wall, put a FW in front, and drop an acid cloud on them?

What if I fill the room with FW/acid/BB?

It's not so easy... (although obviously better AI is always good)

[eonfreon]

Ok, now what does the next line of code say when a firewall is dropped cutting off direct access to the party (say at a doorway) and the 11 arcane archers in the raid proceed, in complete safety, to pew pew at will Mr. Raid boss (or even trash).

Now what's the AI do when you put them against a wall, put a FW in front, and drop an acid cloud on them?

What if I fill the room with FW/acid/BB?

It's not so easy... (although obviously better AI is always good)

That's the thing isn't it? There's just too many variables. "Realistically" in a world where it takes straight damage awhile to kill running through FW or other AOEs to try and get to the caster makes sense. It's what we do for the most part. Running through a FW a few times on my character makes little difference since I know I have to kill that caster before he does something that can really hurt. The main difference is that they don't kite us through like we do. But can you imagine the complaints if enemy casters jumped around and kited like we do? There would be a riot.

Turbine can fix some of the other blatant AI "glitches"; such as not attacking the shieldwall that's blocking their attack on the FW casting Arcane for one.

But with as many variables associated with "avoidance of damage" AI I think they've done right by "nerfing" it. Figuring out the proper level of change is an ongoing process.

To really improve AI tactics Turbine needs to change the way enemy casters work actually. Depending on circumstances there should be a good chance that the enemy is pre-buffed when we get to them. In essence what we have is the default win of the surprise roll. And when enemy casters try to buff up their side instead of straight out attacking with damaging spells they waste time which is only to our advantage. Memorization is our greatest weapon.

There's a bunch of casters in the Dreaming Dark quest Mining for Secrets or whatever that have the right idea. They cast Displacement on themselves and their allies and cast Magic Missles. Great idea. Except I know they're going to do that already. So when I see that the encounter is coming up I cast shield on myself and put on my True Seeing item. Now they've wasted their time and I kill them off. And this is their strategy every time, so I beat them easily every time.

[Tunst]

Is there a monster that hastes itself and its mob?

bugbears.


lol.

[Porkchop]

Last night, in a guild Epic Chrono, a blinded Tiefling Acolyte actually kited the DPS through her little red Blade Barrier.

If player intelligence can't handle it I'm not too sure we need to improve the artificial intelligence.

This is so funny and so true!

[varusso]

Lets put all the other parts of the debate aside. Forget boxing in mobs, or mobs getting smarter or whatever. I think the most telling bit that EVERYONE has skipped over comes back to the example of using Kobold Shamans' jump-back dodge (skellie archers as well btw).

In all of the game, probably THE MOST FRUSTRATING aspect is the nonsense with these 2 mobs bouncing all over the damned place when you are trying to swat them (not to mention flat out jumping up vertical, unclimbable walls). The fact that you can abuse their AI makes chasing them no less aggravating.

Group of mobs: drop a FW, a few seconds later, all of the mobs turn into Mexican Jumping Beans. You think it was annoying as hell chasing these two mob types all over the place? wait until EVERY SINGLE mob in the game adopts the same behavior. Oh and it gets better. Since all of the mobs jumped out of the AOE, mage has to lay another (other than FW since it is on cooldown). Now we have 2 AOE spells in effect, with mobs bouncing all over the place, melees chasing them and griping at that 'mage jerk' for making them chase them. Now all of the mobs are out of BOTH AOE spells. Drop another -- and on and on...until the mage either runs out of SP or gives up. (Oh btw hello shroud-style lag). Thats right, just rage and haste me, mr wizard. Dont bother using AOEs, only direct damage for you. Good thing they added that 12 SP regen, huh?

If mobs are allowed to path in any direction to get out of the AOE (including forward) then they will be bouncing all over the place. If they can only path in ONE direction (backward) then they will quickly become abused and broken as in other posts.

Say NO to having every mob in the game becoming a re-skinned kobold.

Oh and as far as mob casters buffing other mobs: The Hobbie casters and Troll casters in GH explorer area constantly throw displacement or blur on the melees (and themselves) Not to mention EVERY healing mob heals the other mobs around them, even those of different 'races'.

[Imnisc]

good ai in a d&d game is excellent fun, you can basically adjust challenge level from none to omfg without touching stats or immunities (vs a balanced group of monsters).

I remember when playing nwn the server admin had put in a new ai module (on steroids) without telling players, its the most fun ive had in a game ever. Monsters would pick weak targets, protect their healers and casters, run away if things looked bad and come back with reinforcements if any were near. Based on their int stat, they would use different tactics as a group. They used spells intelligently, but spells were slot based like players.

Studying the (lua) script, it wasnt that long or complicated, but the ingame effect was absolutely mindblowing, changed the whole game.

Im guessing ddo devs have looked at improving ai but found it too expensive (like collision it can eat cpu exponentially with more monsters), or just too hard to foolproof quests with it.

[Canopenner]

Lets put all the other parts of the debate aside. Forget boxing in mobs, or mobs getting smarter or whatever. I think the most telling bit that EVERYONE has skipped over comes back to the example of using Kobold Shamans' jump-back dodge (skellie archers as well btw).

In all of the game, probably THE MOST FRUSTRATING aspect is the nonsense with these 2 mobs bouncing all over the damned place when you are trying to swat them (not to mention flat out jumping up vertical, unclimbable walls). The fact that you can abuse their AI makes chasing them no less aggravating.

Group of mobs: drop a FW, a few seconds later, all of the mobs turn into Mexican Jumping Beans. You think it was annoying as hell chasing these two mob types all over the place? wait until EVERY SINGLE mob in the game adopts the same behavior. Oh and it gets better. Since all of the mobs jumped out of the AOE, mage has to lay another (other than FW since it is on cooldown). Now we have 2 AOE spells in effect, with mobs bouncing all over the place, melees chasing them and griping at that 'mage jerk' for making them chase them. Now all of the mobs are out of BOTH AOE spells. Drop another -- and on and on...until the mage either runs out of SP or gives up. (Oh btw hello shroud-style lag). Thats right, just rage and haste me, mr wizard. Dont bother using AOEs, only direct damage for you. Good thing they added that 12 SP regen, huh?

If mobs are allowed to path in any direction to get out of the AOE (including forward) then they will be bouncing all over the place. If they can only path in ONE direction (backward) then they will quickly become abused and broken as in other posts.

Say NO to having every mob in the game becoming a re-skinned kobold.

Oh and as far as mob casters buffing other mobs: The Hobbie casters and Troll casters in GH explorer area constantly throw displacement or blur on the melees (and themselves) Not to mention EVERY healing mob heals the other mobs around them, even those of different 'races'.

if the monster jumps out of AeO and the tank has to chase them down how is that not an improvement? Tanks whine about killing mosters now? your a freaking tank! some even get movement upgrades for what? to get to quest entrances faster?

Also the caster has to maybe drop more AoE or swith to individual dmg? waaaa

and IMHO blur and less so displacment is not the end all be all buff for monsters to be passing out. Haste is the word I used...and also...casters mobs should really spam caster PC's with mental stat dmging spells...which is pretty rare in about 90% of game...

[Ulfr]

I've wondered for a while about how MMO's handle AI. I'm no expert, mind you. Is it all part of the discreet server farm? Some of the old FPS games had a mechanic referred to as client bots wherein a second machine could log into the server and play with its own AI routines. Let the new client bot login handle all its own AI with whatever complication level it wants or needs.

It sounds like a natural fit for an MMO game, taking some of the stress off the server farm and being scalable with each new client bot login. It can at least be extended to the significant mobs in a dungeon, bosses or mini-bosses.

[Khanyth]

Why take a
http://azraellus.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/led-zeppelin-stairway-to-heaven1.jpg?w=300&h=344

when you can take a

http://rlv.zcache.com/escalator_to_heaven_postcard-p239336798275538199qibm_400.jpg

??????


Just adapt. Life goes on.

[Canopenner]

I suffer from the oppinion that this game is too easy is the problem.

[Thrudh]

Lets put all the other parts of the debate aside. Forget boxing in mobs, or mobs getting smarter or whatever. I think the most telling bit that EVERYONE has skipped over comes back to the example of using Kobold Shamans' jump-back dodge (skellie archers as well btw).

In all of the game, probably THE MOST FRUSTRATING aspect is the nonsense with these 2 mobs bouncing all over the damned place when you are trying to swat them (not to mention flat out jumping up vertical, unclimbable walls). The fact that you can abuse their AI makes chasing them no less aggravating.

Group of mobs: drop a FW, a few seconds later, all of the mobs turn into Mexican Jumping Beans. You think it was annoying as hell chasing these two mob types all over the place? wait until EVERY SINGLE mob in the game adopts the same behavior. Oh and it gets better. Since all of the mobs jumped out of the AOE, mage has to lay another (other than FW since it is on cooldown). Now we have 2 AOE spells in effect, with mobs bouncing all over the place, melees chasing them and griping at that 'mage jerk' for making them chase them. Now all of the mobs are out of BOTH AOE spells. Drop another -- and on and on...until the mage either runs out of SP or gives up. (Oh btw hello shroud-style lag). Thats right, just rage and haste me, mr wizard. Dont bother using AOEs, only direct damage for you. Good thing they added that 12 SP regen, huh?

If mobs are allowed to path in any direction to get out of the AOE (including forward) then they will be bouncing all over the place. If they can only path in ONE direction (backward) then they will quickly become abused and broken as in other posts.

Say NO to having every mob in the game becoming a re-skinned kobold.

Oh and as far as mob casters buffing other mobs: The Hobbie casters and Troll casters in GH explorer area constantly throw displacement or blur on the melees (and themselves) Not to mention EVERY healing mob heals the other mobs around them, even those of different 'races'.

Good post.

[varusso]

if the monster jumps out of AeO and the tank has to chase them down how is that not an improvement? Tanks whine about killing mosters now? your a freaking tank! some even get movement upgrades for what? to get to quest entrances faster?

Also the caster has to maybe drop more AoE or swith to individual dmg? waaaa

and IMHO blur and less so displacment is not the end all be all buff for monsters to be passing out. Haste is the word I used...and also...casters mobs should really spam caster PC's with mental stat dmging spells...which is pretty rare in about 90% of game...

Yes, lets add MORE of the things that tick players off as a way of 'balancing' firewall and adding more appeal to the other spells. Cos adding more needless frustration to the game is a GREAT way to make players want to keep paying for it. And adding more idiot mechanics to the game really increases the challenge. If by 'challenge' you mean fighting the urge to bash your head through your keyboard.

You know, after reading your posts here and in other threads, I get the distinct impression you are merely trolling. If that is the case, simply own up to it so I can get on with ignoring your posts from now on.

[varusso]

Good post.

Thanks :D

[Aeolwind]

Like maybe program the monster to not run face first into AoE spell 30 times?

Also Id like to see better monster casters buffing monster tanks. Is there a monster that hastes itself and its mob?

Logic don't go 'round here.

Mob groups SHOULD prebuff themselves, Deathward, Elements, the whole 9. That way you don't have to worry about blanket immunities, you just dispel the buffs. This would help with eating a few vorpals, etc.

[varusso]

Logic don't go 'round here.

Mob groups SHOULD prebuff themselves, Deathward, Elements, the whole 9. That way you don't have to worry about blanket immunities, you just dispel the buffs. This would help with eating a few vorpals, etc.

Good god i cant believe i forgot about nonsense like the Gaeli Clerics in Devils casting DW on everything around them (and the GH white hats doing the same). Annoyed the hell out of my PM today in devils LOL

[Horrorscope]

Sounds reasonable but that would completely ruin WF and it would have to be redone to have any place at all. My guess is that isn't what the OP wants either. So whine is served either way you go imo. Face it people want a more challenging game without nerfing anything, sounds completely reasonable on planet Bizarro.

[Therigar]

'If im standing in a wall of fraking fire, move out of wall of fraking fire'

I know, it sounds simple doesn't it.

But, the truth is that this single line of code eats up important computer resources. It isn't enough to just run out of the wall of fire. You have to choose which direction to run, how far to run and you have to avoid all the dangers that are along each of the possible pathways.

It really becomes a lot of code that has to be checked and almost all of it is something along an if-then-else logic path. Each option dictates a decision point represented somewhere in the database of possible behaviors. And, when 5000 players are active at the same time and using walls of fire on 8 monsters each that is 40000 separate AI processes that have to take place.

Only, because each actual decision involves more than just 1 action -- do I stand here or do I move -- the actual number goes up dramatically. For example, "I have fire resist and fire protection and 80% of my hit points, at the present damage rate I can stand here and be at minimal risk." You and I can think thru that process very quickly, almost instantaneously. The computer has to check 3 variables and estimate longevity at the current rate of hitpoint decay. That is 4 additional functions before it can assess whether to run out or to stay in.

So, 1 function to determine it is at risk, 4 to determine its survivability, 1 for what it should do. Our 40000 processes just became 200k processes. And, we haven't even started to evaluate possible paths to safety and the attendent risks each of those paths give us.

Just 5 more decisions along those lines brings us to over a million decisions that have to be made all at the same time to meet the gaming demands of only 5000 users.

And, I've made it simple.

So, yes, it really is that hard to code "move out of wall of fraking fire." :)

[Canopenner]

Yes, lets add MORE of the things that tick players off as a way of 'balancing' firewall and adding more appeal to the other spells. Cos adding more needless frustration to the game is a GREAT way to make players want to keep paying for it. And adding more idiot mechanics to the game really increases the challenge. If by 'challenge' you mean fighting the urge to bash your head through your keyboard.

You know, after reading your posts here and in other threads, I get the distinct impression you are merely trolling. If that is the case, simply own up to it so I can get on with ignoring your posts from now on.

I do get called a troll often.

I guess if you mean I like to talk about things and disagree with poeple on message boards then I am a troll yes.


what exacltly do you mean by trolling? this is a forum buzzword often used by folks who are themselves "trolling".

I am not mean for meanesses sake...to me that is what a troll is.

Thank you for your positive input. Fellow troll.

[Canopenner]

from wikipedia

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion

This is my thread so I cant really be off topic...I am posting about trolls now but dont hold it against me.

asking for better AI was not meant to provoke an emotional rersponse.

If it does you take the game waaaaay to seriously.

Hopefully folks dont get frustrated playing video games...tho this is the primary reason my grandmother refuses to play pac man.

Ignore me all you want...IDC. This is the internet.

[Zuldar]

Perhaps instead of looking at firewall, they should look at what makes it so effective; the kiting. What if they changed it so if any mob doesn't land a blow on his target within X amount of time (say 5 seconds for example) it would shift the casters aggro onto some other player either at random or whoever has the next highest amount of aggro? That would at the very least make it more challenging to kite through the firewall.

[Canopenner]

Perhaps instead of looking at firewall, they should look at what makes it so effective; the kiting. What if they changed it so if any mob doesn't land a blow on his target within X amount of time (say 5 seconds for example) it would shift the casters aggro onto some other player either at random or whoever has the next highest amount of aggro? That would at the very least make it more challenging to kite through the firewall.

this would help when Im not the only one there yes!

agree 100%

[Canopenner]

Perhaps instead of looking at firewall, they should look at what makes it so effective; the kiting. What if they changed it so if any mob doesn't land a blow on his target within X amount of time (say 5 seconds for example) it would shift the casters aggro onto some other player either at random or whoever has the next highest amount of aggro? That would at the very least make it more challenging to kite through the firewall.

or just leave them on the timer instead of resetting it when they walk in out of AoE...would also help...bet Im a troll for saying that tho.

[varusso]

Perhaps instead of looking at firewall, they should look at what makes it so effective; the kiting. What if they changed it so if any mob doesn't land a blow on his target within X amount of time (say 5 seconds for example) it would shift the casters aggro onto some other player either at random or whoever has the next highest amount of aggro? That would at the very least make it more challenging to kite through the firewall.

In U9, Firewall is getting a reflex save on the first tick when a mob enters it. Subsequent ticks, the reflex save is discarded, so long as the mob does not 're-enter' the firewall -- in other words, kited in and out of it or through multiple firewalls. If you stay within the firewall, (IE: turtle up) the reflex never triggers again.

So your choice is to either kite and bet on your DC being too high for their reflex to halve the damage (or negate it if the mob has evasion) or stand in the wall and get beat on. If you 'kite' within the boundaries of the firewall, the mobs will likely still beat on you (especially if there are multiples), so you arent really kiting. This will make tanks who use intimidate a little more effective, as they can stand in your FW and intim, but with the change to the cooldowns on intim, there will be a gap where the mobs will once more aggro you, as you are likely doing the most damage.

On the one hand, it adds more 'consequences' to a mage's actions; it requires the mage to either be able to take the beating, or raise their DC high enough to allow them to reliably kite. On the other hand, mages have **** AC, and likely not very high DR (even allowing for SS). Turtling on anything of any real challenge with multiple mobs is likely to result in a dead mage. It feels incredibly like a slap in the face type of nerf. "Dont use your best overall spell. We will make you pay for it, one way or another.'

In any case, this is blatantly a method to 'discourage' kiting. They may call it 'giving us more choice' but I dont gild the lily. Dont get me wrong, I am all for balancing the system and making many of the changes they have made. But this one in particular feels like a kick in the teeth, and attempt to strongarm mages into using other spells, due to the severity of changes to FW.

[Canopenner]

In U9, Firewall is getting a reflex save on the first tick when a mob enters it. Subsequent ticks, the reflex save is discarded, so long as the mob does not 're-enter' the firewall -- in other words, kited in and out of it or through multiple firewalls. If you stay within the firewall, (IE: turtle up) the reflex never triggers again.

So your choice is to either kite and bet on your DC being too high for their reflex to halve the damage (or negate it if the mob has evasion) or stand in the wall and get beat on. If you 'kite' within the boundaries of the firewall, the mobs will likely still beat on you (especially if there are multiples), so you arent really kiting. This will make tanks who use intimidate a little more effective, as they can stand in your FW and intim, but with the change to the cooldowns on intim, there will be a gap where the mobs will once more aggro you, as you are likely doing the most damage.

On the one hand, it adds more 'consequences' to a mage's actions; it requires the mage to either be able to take the beating, or raise their DC high enough to allow them to reliably kite. On the other hand, mages have **** AC, and likely not very high DR (even allowing for SS). Turtling on anything of any real challenge with multiple mobs is likely to result in a dead mage. It feels incredibly like a slap in the face type of nerf. "Dont use your best overall spell. We will make you pay for it, one way or another.'

In any case, this is blatantly a method to 'discourage' kiting. They may call it 'giving us more choice' but I dont gild the lily. Dont get me wrong, I am all for balancing the system and making many of the changes they have made. But this one in particular feels like a kick in the teeth, and attempt to strongarm mages into using other spells, due to the severity of changes to FW.

I will take this as good news from my perspective.

FW is overused...there are other spells that would work just as well against mobs...excluding given undead....spamming maximized electric loop is just about as good depending what kind of monsters your fighting...I would balance out ticks of dmg vs stun effect and come up equal...(if you dont max the FW)

[Beethoven]

what exacltly do you mean by trolling?


... a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages


Hopefully folks dont get frustrated playing video games...tho this is the primary reason my grandmother refuses to play pac man.

Me thinks you answered the question.

Problem is AI's are not actually intelligent. They operate after a script, commonly a more complex version of "if condition X is true then perform action z". There are people very good at analyzing scripts (cause and effect and all) and then use the knowledge to break the script. It's what makes an improvement to an AI incredibly hard.

Similar holds true with pre-buffing of mobs. I am pretty certain we soon would have people complain that it is pretty silly for mobs to have indefinite duration on their buffs and if they have a limited duration nothing would keep players to just wait it out (not hard for spells with a short duration such as haste).

What leaves challange. It wouldn't be hard to increase the challange. Turbine could simply raise the damage output of spells and attacks from mobs. I suppose the primary issue here is if they make it a challange for some (ie: the elite players) it becomes unbeatable for others (ie: casuals). So they probably try find some sort of middle ground. Now we could argue how well a job they are doing, but I believe the challange of the game (or lack thereof) is by design. They could easily raise it without necessarily improving the AI.

[Aeolwind]

Mobs are smart enough to step through a blade barrier when they are 1 touch from death, but then sometimes when you take a step towards them they jump at the chance to kill you and jump through the paper shredder.

[Canopenner]

Me thinks you answered the question.

Problem is AI's are not actually intelligent. They operate after a script, commonly a more complex version of "if condition X is true then perform action z". There are people very good at analyzing scripts (cause and effect and all) and then use the knowledge to break the script. It's what makes an improvement to an AI incredibly hard.

Similar holds true with pre-buffing of mobs. I am pretty certain we soon would have people complain that it is pretty silly for mobs to have indefinite duration on their buffs and if they have a limited duration nothing would keep players to just wait it out (not hard for spells with a short duration such as haste).

What leaves challange. It wouldn't be hard to increase the challange. Turbine could simply raise the damage output of spells and attacks from mobs. I suppose the primary issue here is if they make it a challange for some (ie: the elite players) it becomes unbeatable for others (ie: casuals). So they probably try find some sort of middle ground. Now we could argue how well a job they are doing, but I believe the challange of the game (or lack thereof) is by design. They could easily raise it without necessarily improving the AI.

I also suffer from the delusion that this game should be like dungeons and dragons...

mobs there do have spell pools, do rebuff (when needed only), and can have metamagic type feats....also they are more like the pc races if humanoids as far as classing goes...I would like very much to see these things too...but I know im in dreamland...

All I was really asking for in this thread is "I have been hit in the face with stationary AoE spell, I will not run into it 30 times..."

sounds like turbines FW nerf(which I admit I did not research, heard duration was changed from people and thats about it) in 9 at least somewhat satisfies me...

why even bring up trolling at this point really? pls gimme a break.

[Hafeal]

its not a nerf to FW to make the monsters smarter.

This idea comes up every 6 months or so and is just an overly simplistic look at the game - really only from a movement perspective. The reason AI is so hard, especially in DDO is that:

Not all creatures have the same intelligence - some ARE idiots, some are geniuses. Hey, just like the players. ;) Some of those creatures WOULD stand in a firewall - just like players do. Programming various levels of creature intelligence can only be, I would think not being a programmer, a MONUMENTAL task.

Why shouldn't monsters make 'mistakes'? It does not matter how smart you are - we all make them. "AI" should work the same way, no? Or are you looking for 'perfect' computer play? I hope not, I, for one, don't want to play a game of chess against "Big Blue" and lose every time - uh, not enjoyable.

Compared to the beginning of DDO, creatures are MUCH more likely now to retreat and move out of the firewall. Sometimes, the encounters are designed so that 'firewall' can be the 'right' answer.

The devs also deal with players who run, and re-run, quests. YOUR foreknowledge of their tactics makes encounters much, much easier over time. The creatures in the dungeon don't get that benefit. They also don't get all the resources you have (same number of spells, equipment, abilities etc ...), thus some beefing up is necessary.

Overall, I think DDO's AI is pretty damned good, especially compared to most other games. I think sometimes players just need to enjoy the easier encounters and worry about the harder ones. And if they are all too easy for you - perhaps you can play Big Blue. :cool:

[Zuldar]

In U9, Firewall is getting a reflex save on the first tick when a mob enters it. Subsequent ticks, the reflex save is discarded, so long as the mob does not 're-enter' the firewall -- in other words, kited in and out of it or through multiple firewalls. If you stay within the firewall, (IE: turtle up) the reflex never triggers again.


That's kind of the whole point of this thread though, find alternatives besides just nerfing firewall. And even with the nerf not a lot will change, if a caster was going to turtle up (say due to having a torc or con op item) they'll probably do so regardless and the rest will continue kiting.

[leadhead]

Oh not this again... who said anything about AI? Is that what this has come down to? You cant come up with a good alternative reason why firewall is used by arcane casters 85 - 90% more than any other offensive spell so you just pretend that the devs are nerfing it because mob AI is unable to counter it?

Cmon, I dont like nerfs...but that spell is a DOT that practically does nuke damage per tick after you roid it up with maximize, empower, inferno clickies, and potions.

[Canopenner]

Oh not this again... who said anything about AI? Is that what this has come down to? You cant come up with a good alternative reason why firewall is used by arcane casters 85 - 90% more than any other offensive spell so you just pretend that the devs are nerfing it because mob AI is unable to counter it?

Cmon, I dont like nerfs...but that spell is a DOT that practically does nuke damage per tick after you roid it up with maximize, empower, inferno clickies, and potions.

CK is everybit as good. cept vs undead....but my personal feelings about FW being overused aside...

I said this already but I just dont want mob to follow kiter through AoE spell 30 times in 2 mins. I did say that right?

I dont care if its FW BB CK or what!

and I will say it about AI again and again. TY

G E E E Z!

[leadhead]

CK is everybit as good. cept vs undead....but my personal feelings about FW being overused aside...

I said this already but I just dont want mob to follow kiter through AoE spell 30 times in 2 mins. I did say that right?

I dont care if its FW BB CK or what!

and I will say it about AI again and again. TY

G E E E Z!


Thats fine, except you prefixed your thread title with "instead of nerfing FW"

[Canopenner]

This idea comes up every 6 months or so and is just an overly simplistic look at the game - really only from a movement perspective. The reason AI is so hard, especially in DDO is that:

Not all creatures have the same intelligence - some ARE idiots, some are geniuses. Hey, just like the players. ;) Some of those creatures WOULD stand in a firewall - just like players do. Programming various levels of creature intelligence can only be, I would think not being a programmer, a MONUMENTAL task.

Why shouldn't monsters make 'mistakes'? It does not matter how smart you are - we all make them. "AI" should work the same way, no? Or are you looking for 'perfect' computer play? I hope not, I, for one, don't want to play a game of chess against "Big Blue" and lose every time - uh, not enjoyable.

Compared to the beginning of DDO, creatures are MUCH more likely now to retreat and move out of the firewall. Sometimes, the encounters are designed so that 'firewall' can be the 'right' answer.

The devs also deal with players who run, and re-run, quests. YOUR foreknowledge of their tactics makes encounters much, much easier over time. The creatures in the dungeon don't get that benefit. They also don't get all the resources you have (same number of spells, equipment, abilities etc ...), thus some beefing up is necessary.

Overall, I think DDO's AI is pretty damned good, especially compared to most other games. I think sometimes players just need to enjoy the easier encounters and worry about the harder ones. And if they are all too easy for you - perhaps you can play Big Blue. :cool:

fire giant captains should def be smart enough to deal with such a tactic...

foreknowledge of tactics use by mobs in this game is another excellent thing I would love to see improvement in...but I understand things are not so simple...

I want turbine to be a better DM. I understand this is somewhat unrealistic...but that doesnt mean I cant talk about things I want to see on a computer game forum...If this idea comes up every 6 months then maybe someone oughta listen sometime...

"compared to alot of games"...this is a subject for whole thread...dont make me start asking for them to add mentoring like they have(had?) in everquest. On the catagory of mob AI I would say this game is average.

[Canopenner]

Thats fine, except you prefixed your thread title with "instead of nerfing FW"

Im sorry will try to fit entire discussion into thread topic for you next time :^D

[eonfreon]

CK is everybit as good. cept vs undead....but my personal feelings about FW being overused aside...

I said this already but I just dont want mob to follow kiter through AoE spell 30 times in 2 mins. I did say that right?

I dont care if its FW BB CK or what!

and I will say it about AI again and again. TY

G E E E Z!

What would suggest however?

Just "stay out of the FW" doesn't really address the issue for a Mob I don't think. If a Mob doesn't chase down the caster than all that happens is he becomes a sitting duck for another spell since FW becomes a barrier he won't cross. Yes, ranged damage could be ramped up but due to the collision system all a caster would have to do is keep moving and he can dodge the arrows or bolts.

The fact is it makews sense to take the chance of dying by chasing a caster through a FW and hoping to kill him before he gets off another spell rather than sit on the other side of a FW and know the caster is preparing to end your life.

Anyway, this issue may actually be mostly taken care of with the Save upon entry that occurs. Yes, it seems odd that you can avoid fire when you enter through it, but it just requires imagination. After all, when I'm hit in the face with a fireball and yet my Evasion save allows me to avoid all damage I have to imagine that I managed to dodge it and cover up at the last second. If it helps others who can't wrap their heads around how one can save through a FW then maybe they can think of a Mob stopping just short of the actual flame and dodging to the side or something. Remember, what we see in a video game is not always exactly what is happening. Sometimes it's a representation of what is happening. I mean, people don't really think they can survive multiple hits from an Ogre's club right? HP is not your actual health, after all, it's an abstract representation of stamina, health, luck, gear and expertise among others (like magic too).

So I think what's confusing this thread is that it initially reads like you are against the recent nerfs to FW, when in actuality you should be for them (and it now appears you really are in favor of what's being done). Sometimes a nerf is necessary instead of working up a more complicated scheme that may not even work, nor really have the intended consequence.

If it was as simple as "make the AI smarter" they would have done so already. You gotta work with what you got.

[varusso]

That's kind of the whole point of this thread though, find alternatives besides just nerfing firewall. And even with the nerf not a lot will change, if a caster was going to turtle up (say due to having a torc or con op item) they'll probably do so regardless and the rest will continue kiting.

Except the proposal would actually be worse than the upcoming changes, just for different reasons. If it allowed us to corral mobs, then it would only prompt yet another nerf. If it allowed mobs to bounce around like jumping beans, it would make the spell utterly and completely useless. Either situation would only further aggravate players.

The far better solution would have been to give us more choices that actually appealed to us, rather than choke-holding us into using something else by radically changing the mechanics of the mage's signature spell. Thisis tantamount to telling a barbarian he can no longer use Greataxes, but he is free to choose any of the other wpns in the arsenal that the devs spent so much time doing pretty artwork for. Sure we CAN use firewall still, butit is NOT the same spell we selected in our level up.

More choices could have included bundling firewall in with Ice Storm and adding in..say, pool of acid, and electric field...making them all a persistent AOE effect of their appropriate element. Shove them into an 'accordion spell' (like fireshield, resist energy, teleport, etc.) with similar damage ratings. Then they take up one spell slot, allowing a bit more versatility n every mage. Many of the 'cloud' - type spells could be combined as well. The 'ray spells' could also be compacted. You would see alot of different spells being used, then. (some may argue it is the same spell with a different flavor, but really, thats what they ARE anyway). Yes, this would need to be balanced against the fact that mages would be carrying more spells than originally intended. But realistically, there is no reason why a mage should NOT get a similar damage type spell for each element each spell level that they would get ANY elemental damage spells. Why would a Water-Mage be any less diligent in creating and using a spell of his preferred element than a Fire-Mage?

THEN even though there would still be an outcry about the FW nerf, at least there would be a REAL incentive to use something else, rather than attempting to make other spells 'more appealing' by proxy. Again, many of the changes they are making ARE good. Rebalancing spells so that SP reflects usefulness makes sense, even if it is counter to the established system. The problem is that they came down SO hard on FW specifically, when it is currently THE spell of choice for mages for most of their levels, that all of the other bennies go out the window.

Regardless, monkeying around with the AI will only make the problem worse, as it will have serious (negative) impact on other aspects of the game, and other classes. Making melees chase the mobs even more or being able to pen mobs in with AOEs are both bad for the game. It is far easier for them to pull some of the teeth on a spell than to rework the entire AI system around it. That is not to say i AGREE with the nerf of FW; its just better in real terms than trying to make 'smarter' mobs.

[Fon_Win]

just give the mobs a boost to umd and ice storm wands/gust of wind wands....

[KanedaEX]

Like maybe program the monster to not run face first into AoE spell 30 times?

Also Id like to see better monster casters buffing monster tanks. Is there a monster that hastes itself and its mob?

Nerfing will happen eventually, and people will adapt. Everyone will be happy in the end. Just nto the haters, because they gonna hate anyway.

[justagame]

While the AI isn't perfect, who's to say avoiding a FW would always be optimal? With all CC going away the moment the caster dies, there are lots of times I will run right through a BB or FW to kill a caster, sometimes even taking multiple tics if I think I can kill him quickly. If all I do is avoid the first FW, and leave the caster alive, it's only a matter of time before he hits me with another one... and another...

[Canopenner]

Except the proposal would actually be worse than the upcoming changes, just for different reasons. If it allowed us to corral mobs, then it would only prompt yet another nerf. If it allowed mobs to bounce around like jumping beans, it would make the spell utterly and completely useless. Either situation would only further aggravate players.

The far better solution would have been to give us more choices that actually appealed to us, rather than choke-holding us into using something else by radically changing the mechanics of the mage's signature spell. Thisis tantamount to telling a barbarian he can no longer use Greataxes, but he is free to choose any of the other wpns in the arsenal that the devs spent so much time doing pretty artwork for. Sure we CAN use firewall still, butit is NOT the same spell we selected in our level up.

More choices could have included bundling firewall in with Ice Storm and adding in..say, pool of acid, and electric field...making them all a persistent AOE effect of their appropriate element. Shove them into an 'accordion spell' (like fireshield, resist energy, teleport, etc.) with similar damage ratings. Then they take up one spell slot, allowing a bit more versatility n every mage. Many of the 'cloud' - type spells could be combined as well. The 'ray spells' could also be compacted. You would see alot of different spells being used, then. (some may argue it is the same spell with a different flavor, but really, thats what they ARE anyway). Yes, this would need to be balanced against the fact that mages would be carrying more spells than originally intended. But realistically, there is no reason why a mage should NOT get a similar damage type spell for each element each spell level that they would get ANY elemental damage spells. Why would a Water-Mage be any less diligent in creating and using a spell of his preferred element than a Fire-Mage?

THEN even though there would still be an outcry about the FW nerf, at least there would be a REAL incentive to use something else, rather than attempting to make other spells 'more appealing' by proxy. Again, many of the changes they are making ARE good. Rebalancing spells so that SP reflects usefulness makes sense, even if it is counter to the established system. The problem is that they came down SO hard on FW specifically, when it is currently THE spell of choice for mages for most of their levels, that all of the other bennies go out the window.

Regardless, monkeying around with the AI will only make the problem worse, as it will have serious (negative) impact on other aspects of the game, and other classes. Making melees chase the mobs even more or being able to pen mobs in with AOEs are both bad for the game. It is far easier for them to pull some of the teeth on a spell than to rework the entire AI system around it. That is not to say i AGREE with the nerf of FW; its just better in real terms than trying to make 'smarter' mobs.

well...to be honest...I was talking about the next firewall nerf the one that will be in pack 5...Doc brown stopped by and we jumped to 2014 and I saw a forum post there and Im trying to save the future.

Its the kiting that bugs me about it, and nerfing FW wont help because youll just be able to do it with something else...Id much rather see the monster stay on the timer and only take X amount of damage than go in and out of AoE and take 3 times X damage.

that has nothing to do with the AI tho...

[Imnisc]

This idea comes up every 6 months or so and is just an overly simplistic look at the game - really only from a movement perspective. The reason AI is so hard, especially in DDO is that:

Not all creatures have the same intelligence - some ARE idiots, some are geniuses. Hey, just like the players. ;) Some of those creatures WOULD stand in a firewall - just like players do. Programming various levels of creature intelligence can only be, I would think not being a programmer, a MONUMENTAL task.


A simple approach is just to use the INT stat, I think there are already rough rules in d&d for what behaviour each level allows, and switch ai script accordingly.

Ie. int 3 could be a blob just moving toward vibration, int 40 it would play DDO itself on another server.

So if an ogre is chasing you, cast fox cunning on it and it will switch ai, realize you will likely be tough prey and run off ;)

[Tom318]

As for "realism", that it is stupid that the mobs spend time in harmful enemy spell effects, you just need to join any random pug and you will see players happily running in and out of enemy blader barriers or wall of fires until they die themselves. But I suppose that AI is unfixable :P

This is true.. to say that AI is stupid is to vastly overestimate real human intelligence lol :)

[...v...]

Firewall is a great spell, but if they want us to use other enhancment line then why not give "for example" acid/ele spec casters a thunder storm spell which would be aoe type, or fix acid rain to firewall standards and duration. They can do this with any enhancment line and people would break away from the standard kite in the firewall model, now they can kite in the thunder storm etc...
The developers should focus on improving animations and known bugs which plagued this game for years and are still around. I see the game being homogenized little by little to make it more short bus friendly.

[leadhead]

Im sorry will try to fit entire discussion into thread topic for you next time :^D


Nah, dont worry about it, let me fit into yours.


Instead of nerfing FW, why didnt they just give paladin a viable PRE? ;)

[Hafeal]

A simple approach is just to use the INT stat, I think there are already rough rules in d&d for what behaviour each level allows, and switch ai script accordingly.

Ie. int 3 could be a blob just moving toward vibration, int 40 it would play DDO itself on another server.

So if an ogre is chasing you, cast fox cunning on it and it will switch ai, realize you will likely be tough prey and run off ;)

Sure, sounds easy - of course running a formula and stating here is your pre-set outcome a), b) and c) - does not always apply, especially given how dynamically the game operates, especially in terms of combat, - there is constant decision making, especially because the 'live' players do things 'off script.' In addition, what if none of your 'pre-determined' pathing choices do much or make the AI operate even worse?

I dunno, I guess I can more easily 'explain' creatures actions in the context of what is happening. Most of the complaining here is because a segment of players have to change their zerg tactics and learn something new - it has impact on their builds as well. Their angst is understandable. Add in that we have such a wide range of ages and maturity levels, I am not all that surprised that some players, rather than trying to adapt, or complaining as they adapt, lash out that it is the game's AI, or the devs for not understanding what they are doing, or yelping as to how 'x' change is 'a nerf on players, etc.

Given DDO's age, maturation and development, I guess am willing to give the AI the benefit of the doubt. When DDO2 comes out, I am sure the AI will be jusy hunky-dory and no one will have any complaints, at all, ever.

[loki_3369]

Like maybe program the monster to not run face first into AoE spell 30 times?

Also Id like to see better monster casters buffing monster tanks. Is there a monster that hastes itself and its mob?

Lol. They wouldn't go and fix the real problem (instead of trying to hide it with inflated hp and such) because that would be logical.

[Thrudh]

The fact is it makews sense to take the chance of dying by chasing a caster through a FW and hoping to kill him before he gets off another spell rather than sit on the other side of a FW and know the caster is preparing to end your life.

This is true... I run through an enemy's firewall or blade barrier to kill the caster, because I'd rather take that tick of damage and kill him before he casts another spell...

So it looks like the AI is doing the "smart" thing.

So maybe the devs should teach the enemy casters how to "kite", so I run through their firewalls multiple times chasing them... :)

[NinetyNineTails]

As for "realism", that it is stupid that the mobs spend time in harmful enemy spell effects, you just need to join any random pug and you will see players happily running in and out of enemy blader barriers or wall of fires until they die themselves. But I suppose that AI is unfixable :P

This. As things stand, even relatively stupid AI, like that in DDO and most MMORPGs, is still better than a distressing number of the players. Why should mobs know not to stand in the fire when the players don't?

[Canopenner]

Nah, dont worry about it, let me fit into yours.


Instead of nerfing FW, why didnt they just give paladin a viable PRE? ;)

okies!

[Canopenner]

Sure, sounds easy - of course running a formula and stating here is your pre-set outcome a), b) and c) - does not always apply, especially given how dynamically the game operates, especially in terms of combat, - there is constant decision making, especially because the 'live' players do things 'off script.' In addition, what if none of your 'pre-determined' pathing choices do much or make the AI operate even worse?

I dunno, I guess I can more easily 'explain' creatures actions in the context of what is happening. Most of the complaining here is because a segment of players have to change their zerg tactics and learn something new - it has impact on their builds as well. Their angst is understandable. Add in that we have such a wide range of ages and maturity levels, I am not all that surprised that some players, rather than trying to adapt, or complaining as they adapt, lash out that it is the game's AI, or the devs for not understanding what they are doing, or yelping as to how 'x' change is 'a nerf on players, etc.

Given DDO's age, maturation and development, I guess am willing to give the AI the benefit of the doubt. When DDO2 comes out, I am sure the AI will be jusy hunky-dory and no one will have any complaints, at all, ever.

Im not complaining about anything but AI, bring the nerfs..tho they only happen to stuff that is overused...I want FW people on my bandwagon tho

[Maudric]

Oh not this again... who said anything about AI? Is that what this has come down to? You cant come up with a good alternative reason why firewall is used by arcane casters 85 - 90% more than any other offensive spell so you just pretend that the devs are nerfing it because mob AI is unable to counter it?

Cmon, I dont like nerfs...but that spell is a DOT that practically does nuke damage per tick after you roid it up with maximize, empower, inferno clickies, and potions.

I've recently started a new Sorc - my first caster character and have just got firewall. I find that I hardly need to cast anything else and am encouraged to if I don't get those FWs in fast. It is actually pretty boring and using a bit more imagination to take out the mobs at a lower SP cost can only be a plus. Also some of the changes to the Epics means that I might be able to have more fun with my build than focusing entirely on CC.