Update 9's crafting and the death of the Artificer.

[Zorth]

This game is bybassing Artificers and making us part time Artificers.

Does this spell the end of this class before it is even introduced?

6-16-11: Update: Hi all, I hate to say it but this game is now ruined. We all now have the potential to become merchants who just make stuff and sell it.

The death of DDO has arrived. Crafting stuff is a cool concept but it never works in an online video game. It only creates less adventurers and inadvertently creates a mega spawn of video game merchants who only care about crafting and nothing else but.

I have canceled my vip status after over 4 years of being one and I do not care for it anymore. I hope I am wrong, but I think I am right about this.

[le_goat]

Yes.yes it does.

[Dulcimerist]

I had actually assumed that they'd never introduce the Artificer class in the first place. :(

[natedogg729]

I don't think they really want Artificers in the game due to the fact that it would unbalance the economy even more than it already is.

[dkyle]

Item crafting in 3.5 is open to all spellcasters. Artificers just get the feats for free. Artificers have plenty of uses other than making magic items.

The Devs made the right choice to make crafting available to all, and not require feats or other build resources. Limiting it to casters, and making it require spending feats, would have been a bad idea in a game like this. Only dedicated crafting bots would craft, not real characters that quest.

[Siro]

This game is bybassing Artificers and making us part time Artificers.

Does this spell the end of this class before it is even introduced?

"Hold on guys, I have to move my crafter-leech over to a safe spot"

Crafter piking would be the new thing unless they provided non-fighting solutions to existing and new content. It is ultimately a choice any mmo with crafting has to make. Basically it is a bad idea to force a player to choose between being effective at playing through the content versus being effective at crafting.

[Angelus_dead]

This game is bybassing Artificers and making us part time Artificers.

Does this spell the end of this class before it is even introduced?
It would have been a mistake for the DDO version of the Artificer to have the construction of durable magic items as a major class feature.

In fact, it was also a mistake for the original D&D Artificer to be based on crafting items! The DDO version can be based on something else, like buff/repair + pet support.

[Maegin]

Less things added to the game, less they mess up (our current stuff too). No artificer, instead fix past bugs. kthnxbai.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Artificers are more than just crafters. They're decent buffbots, and all that buffing makes them somewhat formidable in combat.
And some of the minor changes in the last few updates have seemed to be paving the way towards viable Artificers (as they buff equipment, rather than people). There are still obstacles, and I wouldn't really be surprised either way if they got added or not, but crafting alone does not negate their use. (The best suggestions for them on the forums have dropped the crafting aspect entirely.)

[Hobbit]

one word.
Permanency.
In any case, a temp buff on equipment, kinda like the temp guild gem buffs, wouldn't seem too bad.
I remember a level 8 divine spell in PnP that gave someone +level of the caster to str.
Maybe have artificers be able to do a super charge buff, that turns a +5 enhancement to a +8 enchancement for X amount of time?
Or have them able to debuff equipments on an enemy for a short period of time ^.^
What's that, you have a vorpal weapon,Mister kobold? Not anymore...
Another great thing would be a viable way to break through SR other than super boosting a stat, a debuffing spell that would, say, give - 20 SR for x time.
Not shattermantle on a weapon, but anactual spell that casts from range.
I used to kill dragons like that in 2.0.
or what about enlarge? ^.^ i'm sure everyone permanencied enlarge on their chars at some point in pnp.
There are alot of viable combat paths they could go for for artificers.
Let's hope for something that'll help promote team play, and help reduce the need for the rediculiously high spell DCs, or ACs, or intimidates.

[Xenus_Paradox]

Artificers have a slew of perfectly viable niches in DDO without crafting.

Wand-monkey: PnP Artificers are capable of wand-whipping a spell with greater effect than a Wizard casting the spell from memory.

Magic Weapon/Magic Vestment: Ever wish your Toothpick was a +5 rapier instead of masterwork? Well now you can! Basically, any weapon/armor that has good effects on it but only has a +2 bonus or what not is now a viable choice if you have an Artificer around.

Weapon Augmentation: Nice eSoS. I think I'll give it Acid Burst for 15 minutes.

Oh, and a WF pure 20 Artificer gets self-healing and full Rogue skills.

Who gives a #$^% about crafting?!

[donfilibuster]

one word.
Permanency.

And while at it, contingency.
Crafting contingent spells could be some artificer idea. (from Complete Arcane)



Or have them able to debuff equipments on an enemy for a short period of time ^.^
What's that, you have a vorpal weapon,Mister kobold? Not anymore...

"Targeted Dispel", we can use that in DDO, it would temporarily supress items.
For a few seconds will be enough, less than disjunction, which was supposed to be permanent.
(this usage of dispel is from core)



Another great thing would be a viable way to break through SR other than super boosting a stat, a debuffing spell that would, say, give - 20 SR for x time.
Not shattermantle on a weapon, but anactual spell that casts from range.

The spell is Assay Resistance, and is spell level IV, and is not supposed to be rare.
(also from Complete Arcane)



or what about enlarge? ^.^ i'm sure everyone permanencied enlarge on their chars at some point in pnp.

We already have this on the duergar, where they visibly grow size from small to medium.
We could have it show grow from medium to large, but not really doubling your tall as per PnP, 50% should work fine.
The spell itself is not be overpowered, would be on the same lines of rage but giving size bonus so it would stack.

[nibel]

In fact, it was also a mistake for the original D&D Artificer to be based on crafting items! The DDO version can be based on something else, like buff/repair + pet support.

Like the 4e Artificer? No stone throwing, they implemented 4e half-elves and no one hate their mechanic.

Also, never forget the artificer would be the second trapblaster of the game. Add a second class to cover traps would be great for variability.

Also, weapon augmenting. Maybe using part of the code of Master's Touch, since it adds "weapon proficiency" to your weapon, instead of a "weapon proficiency" buff on your character. The main problem would be with people who swap weapons all the time. Then, you just made tha spell have a SMALL range, and long casting time (summoning-long). Its great as pre-buff, but not as combat-buff. Like the original artificer one-minute casting.

[Razcar]

Cannot see how artificers would fit in really in a game like DDO. DDO is an action game, and artificers are in my view not very "action:y". A class that is built on unneeded traps skill (rogues built for traps do not get groups as it is) and then buffing just seems like it would be a hard fit for DDO.

As A-D says, the Artificer class would have to be changed and souped up dramatically to be of much use here. And then it would be better to spend that development time on another class that would match DDO's gameplay better from scratch.

[Zorth]

Topical and interesting. Please forgive me, but I thought it was needed to put this thread back to the top of things since it is a hot topic today.

[Ngha]

Artificer in this game?

Probably fill out the roles like a Bard does. Just kinda gets accepted for the unique buffs (everyone loves buffs) and then pikes until just before the boss fight (lol). But seriously, a buffer that has UMD as a class skill and enhancements driving at making their wand-whips and scroll (arcane and divine) firings more awesome. Expensive, but self sufficient and awesome, as well as filling a buffer role in raids (you got weapon buffs? come on in!). More DPS, AC, DR, etc is always wanted.

crafting system doesnt hurt it at all. Maybe if they could make their own wands/scrolls it would make them more awesome.

[Sleepsalot]

Regular crafting on Live is a waste of good Money. Takes mega Cash to do and gains very little back. Now if Essences were sold in the DDO store Like on Lam it may be more fun. Just my Opinion.

[PointyRhiana]

First of all, keep in mind that crafting is in Beta, and large changes MIGHT still happen to it.

That aside:

Yes, there will be alts dedicated entirely to crafting. Yes, there will be PLAYERS who only craft, though I expect them to be a minority as you need a large amount of cash to kick-start your crafting career and the best way to do it is through playing high-level content.

What part of that is bad for DDO? I don't mean to sound rude, and maybe this is due to my inexperience with pnp D&D (have never played a game) and my experience playing games with crafting (Lotro and Eve-online).

[Ngha]

Weapon Augmentation: Nice eSoS. I think I'll give it Acid Burst for 15 minutes.

Oh, and this is the single biggest reason Artificer will still be valid for DDO, forever.

[altrocks]

Personally, I would prefer crafting classes to the general crafting they have now, but that's not gonna happen.

Making a Bowyer/Fletcher or Blacksmith/Weaponsmith/Armorsmith or Enchanter would have been a lot of fun. Get XP for creating items and gathering materials, etc. This game is not set up for any of that. You'd need a pretty big sandbox and lots of search/spot/scavenging skills/abilities to make it so that it isn't plat = XP, but it would have made more sense really. Just my preference.

As it is now, plat = crafting XP anyway, so it doesn't matter. I probably won't be crafting now that unbound shards are coming out. I'll just sell my essences or give them to a guildie who's leveling in crafting so they can make stuff for me when they get up high enough, if I need it. It's too much of a time and plat sink to do it just to the current 75 cap, let alone 100, 150 or 300 that might be the max cap when it's all said and done.

On topic: Artificer never looked like a viable class to me and I don't think it would do very well, honestly. We're missing a 4th specialist class, though I don't know what they'd put in there (Cavalier might be awesome, but no mounts. Maybe something like a Condotierre would be more appropriate, dunno).

I'd like to see Warlock or Psionic class at this point. We already have Psionic bonuses in game, so that would work pretty well. Give a little variability in buffs, as well as add another buff type that can't be anti-magicked/dispelled. Could be quite interesting to see. Warlock implementation could be fun as well, though I don't know how they'd really do it. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Boromirs]

Always thought artificers were about the creation of WF/tech. I think they are going to be what gnomes are to WoW. Ability to make Warforged, Equipment based around WF, Guns?, summon a WF titan (or have it follow you around everywhere like a bodyguard). Things of that nature.

[Verdex]

I'm liking the concept of making them buffers more than crafters, now o stay kinda true to the class, maybe they should get a bonus to crafting xp, and/or success rates too.

I wonder if rather than making it feats, they made it enhancements? with SLA that you got, that way they could make any caster into one. Allow them access to special item based spells, along with group buffs that we dont see alot and would be "cross class"

I'm thinking item buffs would be stronger than normal buffs, that a player wanting their sword buffed would need to show it (cntrl -ight click) for them to target and buff it. Making it a hassle to actually buff, so they would get a boost in power for the time/effort it takes to buff it

[EllisDee37]

6-16-11: Update: Hi all, I hate to say it but this game is now ruined. We all now have the potential to become merchants who just make stuff and sell it.

The death of DDO has arrived. Crafting stuff is a cool concept but it never works in an online video game. It only creates less adventurers and inadvertently creates a mega spawn of video game merchants who only care about crafting and nothing else but.lol

[brian14]

6-16-11: Update: Hi all, I hate to say it but this game is now ruined. We all now have the potential to become merchants who just make stuff and sell it.
Wonderful. Anyone with inclination to do so is welcome to it, as far as I am concerned. I have no desire to craft anything except minor gear for my lowbies, and am very unlikely to buy any crafted stuff. So your dire predictions do not affect me at all.

Except maybe creating more buyers for the junk I otherwise would have vendored off.

[Jaid314]

Wonderful. Anyone with inclination to do so is welcome to it, as far as I am concerned. I have no desire to craft anything except minor gear for my lowbies, and am very unlikely to buy any crafted stuff. So your dire predictions do not affect me at all.

Except maybe creating more buyers for the junk I otherwise would have vendored off.

if you want the most money, you may wish to consider deconstructing (some of) that vendor trash and selling the essences instead. just a thought :P

edit:



I'd like to see Warlock or Psionic class at this point. We already have Psionic bonuses in game, so that would work pretty well. Give a little variability in buffs, as well as add another buff type that can't be anti-magicked/dispelled. Could be quite interesting to see. Warlock implementation could be fun as well, though I don't know how they'd really do it. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

actually, in PnP, there is no such thing as a "psionic" bonus, not even in the psionics rules.

[Asketes]

YEAH!

how dare they add basic crafting mechanisms to an MMO!

[JakLee7]

no point in adding druids either, they are just a bunch of hippies!

[Hendrik]

This game is bybassing Artificers and making us part time Artificers.

Does this spell the end of this class before it is even introduced?

6-16-11: Update: Hi all, I hate to say it but this game is now ruined. We all now have the potential to become merchants who just make stuff and sell it.

The death of DDO has arrived. Crafting stuff is a cool concept but it never works in an online video game. It only creates less adventurers and inadvertently creates a mega spawn of video game merchants who only care about crafting and nothing else but.

I have canceled my vip status after over 4 years of being one and I do not care for it anymore. I hope I am wrong, but I think I am right about this.

This time for realz?!?!

Need to know if this is the real deal cause we have a Death of DDO about every couple months....

;)

[Hambo]

First of all, keep in mind that crafting is in Beta, and large changes MIGHT still happen to it.

That aside:

Yes, there will be alts dedicated entirely to crafting. Yes, there will be PLAYERS who only craft, though I expect them to be a minority as you need a large amount of cash to kick-start your crafting career and the best way to do it is through playing high-level content.

What part of that is bad for DDO? I don't mean to sound rude, and maybe this is due to my inexperience with pnp D&D (have never played a game) and my experience playing games with crafting (Lotro and Eve-online).

I have yet to spend anything on my crafting Alt other than on deconstruction materials.

On Orien, my current main server, my level4(xp) crafting alt does just that... Craft. The other 19 alts provide all the vendor trash to deconstruct and the crafting alt keeps levelling it's crafting skills. Apparently in U10 it will be able to start making custom items for the rest of my alts and even for sale.

[EllisDee37]

Apparently in U10 it will be able to start making custom items for the rest of my alts and even for sale.You can already do both. u9.1 made shards BtA so you can pass the shards (not the finished items!) to your alts for them to attach the shards to items. You don't need any crafting xp to attach shards, and once you do the items are BtC.

u9.2 introduced unbound shards so you can craft stuff to pass to guildies or post on the ah.

[nibel]

Always thought artificers were about the creation of WF/tech. I think they are going to be what gnomes are to WoW. Ability to make Warforged, Equipment based around WF, Guns?, summon a WF titan (or have it follow you around everywhere like a bodyguard). Things of that nature.

You are wrong.

Warforgeds are the masterwork of House Cannith. The house have some artificers, but the biggest part of the job was done by the Mark of Making and the forges of creation the house took out from Xen'drik.

And believe or not, the Warforged Titans were developed 5 years before the modern warforgeds. The special thing about the modern forgeds are because they have human-like intelligence, and since they are human-sized, they can use any human tool/weapon.

Said that, the 3.5 artificer have a lot of niches, kinda like the druid. Their basic set is:

Trapfinding (All trap skills as class skills, plus Int as primary ability)
Creating Magic items (they get all creation feats for free and have a craft pool to save XP)
Developing short-term items (actually, long duration buffs, but the fluff is buffing an item someone is wearing)
Enhancing weapons and armors temporarily (adding magic effects on the group's weapons)
Wand wielder (many and many feats and class features to cast from wands like wizards cast from memory) + cheap wand creation (UMD + craft pool) = wand machine gun
Homunculi creation, like the Iron Defender line (summoning on 4e)

Just like the druid, you can be an all-around artificer, or a focused one (crafter, wand whipper, buffer...).

On 4e, the rules for wands and item creation changed, so the Artificer become a buffer/healer/summoner. And is one of the best in the game on that. I think DDO artificer should take a look at 4e artificer more than 3.5 artificer.

[Jaid314]

until DDO gets decent summons available, focusing on summoning is just not a good idea. as far as buffer/healer, the 3.x artificer can already do a pretty danged good job of that. they're an incredible buffer, and can either heal warforged with their infusions or everyone with scrolls.

can't say that i'd be looking forward to a 4th edition adaptation particularly. 3rd edition artificers are sufficiently powerful and versatile, even with no benefits to item creation, to be a viable class.

[lhidda]

The death of DDO has arrived. Crafting stuff is a cool concept but it never works in an online video game. It only creates less adventurers and inadvertently creates a mega spawn of video game merchants who only care about crafting and nothing else but.


I like the crafting system. Atm its very helpful for leveling my TR'd toons. I just craft shards for myself and some guildies, because the mats crafting for other people are very expensive. I run the quests like i ever did, I spend at maximum 5% of ingame time with crafting. So, to me ddo is neither dead nor ruined.

[DragonTroy]

Wand wielder (many and many feats and class features to cast from wands like wizards cast from memory) + cheap wand creation (UMD + craft pool) = wand machine gun


would this mean they could dual wield wands? that could be pretty fun. depending on the spell, might actually do some nice damage aswell. meteor swarm wand in each hand...
hey, then we would have a use for those wand enhancements!

[Ngha]

would this mean they could dual wield wands? that could be pretty fun. depending on the spell, might actually do some nice damage aswell. meteor swarm wand in each hand...
hey, then we would have a use for those wand enhancements!

grease+fireball for low levels <.<

[PointyRhiana]

grease+fireball for low levels <.<

Isn't grease point-blank? Otherwise, it sounds like a very good idea and for some reason, makes me wish for a bacon breakfast...

[Ngha]

This just in, in U10..... Grease grenades.

Or maybe thats just wishful thinking.

[Jaid314]

would this mean they could dual wield wands? that could be pretty fun. depending on the spell, might actually do some nice damage aswell. meteor swarm wand in each hand...
hey, then we would have a use for those wand enhancements!

iirc, it requires a feat to dual-wield wands in pen and paper. but it is possible :)

[jwdaniels]

Crafting is generally one of the best and most enjoyable parts of an MMO. It also has the added effect of stabilizing the economy on the supply side, particularly for the effects that are most sought after.

This is a very good thing for the game. If you don't like crafting, don't do it. You can always find a crafter who will be happy to buy/trade for your essences.

[Trillea]

iirc, it requires a feat to dual-wield wands in pen and paper. but it is possible :)

Actually it requires 2 feats - you have to have two-weapon fighting to take wand dual-wielding.

[slothinator]

this Time For Realz?!?!

Need To Know If This Is The Real Deal Cause We Have A Death Of Ddo About Every Single Update....

;)

Ftfy

[rsking]

ok i've said this milion times already you epic builds want a challange make a gimped build then go and try to solo quests and i think this would be the perfect way all the cry baby epic builds that want a challange coul get what they want a class that can't run very many quest alone.

[nibel]

can't say that i'd be looking forward to a 4th edition adaptation particularly. 3rd edition artificers are sufficiently powerful and versatile, even with no benefits to item creation, to be a viable class.

Agree. Was just saying that without dual-wand and crafting, all that rests in the artificer was throw in 4e artificer, and the class is better on those aspects in 4e than 3e (from being a leader class). Not saying they weren't good at that in 3e.

One small example, 4e artificers can recharge a daily magic item each milestone (aka, 2 encounters). Maybe this can be adapted with an "item charge aura" effect that make them recharge like smites (1 per 2~5 minutes). For common spells, not that awesome. For Mantle of Worldshaper, scarabs of absorption, Titan's Grip... its pretty awesome. Good? No idea. Just throwing ideas around.

As Half-elves showed us, taking inspiration from 4e is not always a bad thing.


would this mean they could dual wield wands? that could be pretty fun. depending on the spell, might actually do some nice damage aswell. meteor swarm wand in each hand...
hey, then we would have a use for those wand enhancements!

Not with my books right now, but IIRC, dual-wand feat allow you to spend 2 charges on the off-hand wand to cast it simultaneously with your main hand wand.

Add to that the possibility to expend extra charges to add metamagic feats in wand spells, and an infusion to create a 10-charges wand from *any* spell in the game with a UMD check (and a bit of gold, but who cares?)... Yep, dual-wand artificer is a gold eater monster. But a monster nonetheless.

[DevHead]

This game is bybassing Artificers and making us part time Artificers.

Does this spell the end of this class before it is even introduced?

6-16-11: Update: Hi all, I hate to say it but this game is now ruined. We all now have the potential to become merchants who just make stuff and sell it.

The death of DDO has arrived. Crafting stuff is a cool concept but it never works in an online video game. It only creates less adventurers and inadvertently creates a mega spawn of video game merchants who only care about crafting and nothing else but.

I have canceled my vip status after over 4 years of being one and I do not care for it anymore. I hope I am wrong, but I think I am right about this.



Don't you think you're being a little melodramatic?