Prereq PM summons

[Requiro]

In U9 there are some changes in requirements for PM summons. Please consider change it to be more viable. For now PM summons are very week compare to cost. After U9 cost will be increase, and with new energy manipulation lines there will be no place for them anymore :( That’s why please change the requirements for Pale Master Summons:

Suggestion no.1


Skeleton summons:

Skeleton Knight (1AP): all: PMI and one of: <Any> Manipulation I
Skeleton Archer (1AP): all: PMI and one of: <Any> Spellcasting I
Skeleton Mage (1AP): all: PMI and one of: Deadly I <Any>

Blackbone summons:

Blackbone Knight (1AP): all: PMII, Skeleton Knight and one of: <Any> Manipulation II
Blackbone Archer (1AP): all: PMII, Skeleton Archer and one of: <Any> Spellcasting II
Blackbone Mage (1AP): all: PMII, Skeleton Mage and one of: Deadly II <Any>

Frostmarrow summons:

Frostmarrow Knight (1AP): all: PMIII, Blackbone Knight and one of: <Any> Manipulation III
Frostmarrow Archer (1AP): all: PMIII, Blackbone Archer and one of: <Any> Spellcasting III
Frostmarrow Mage (1AP): all: PMIII, Blackbone Mage and one of: Deadly III <Any>



Suggestion no.2


Skeleton summons (1AP):all: PMI, Augment Summons feat

After click we get menu where we can choice one of the summon below (just like in summon spell), but we can summon proper undead only if we fulfill proper requirement:
Skeleton Knight: one of: <Any> Manipulation I
Skeleton Archer: one of: <Any> Spellcasting I
Skeleton Mage: one of: Deadly I <Any>

Blackbone summons (1AP): all: PMII, Skeleton summons

After click we get menu where we can choice one of the summon below (just like in summon spell), but we can summon proper undead only if we fulfill proper requirement:
Blackbone Knight: one of: <Any> Manipulation II
Blackbone Archer: one of: <Any> Spellcasting II
Blackbone Mage: one of: Deadly II <Any>

Frostmarrow summons (1AP): all: PMIII, Blackbone summons

After click we get menu where we can choice one of the summon below (just like in summon spell), but we can summon proper undead only if we fulfill proper requirement:
Frostmarrow Knight:one of: <Any> Manipulation III
Frostmarrow Archer: one of: <Any> Spellcasting III
Frostmarrow Mage: one of: Deadly III <Any>

[Valindria]

They should just get the summons for free with each teir of PM. Are they really that powerful? I just see u9 no PM will spend the AP on them.

[Requiro]

They should just get the summons for free with each teir of PM. Are they really that powerful? I just see u9 no PM will spend the AP on them.

For free? Yes - that could be overpowered (with all other PrE benefits). But in current form they are almost useless and after U9 they will be completely useless. Not because of they stupid behavior, but because of high cost.

What I don't understand is why they increase cost (in prereq) in U9?

Developers: We use PM summons only because it is fun to get unique puppet :), not because of their power :(.

[Aerendil]

I'd argue the opposite - I'd rather they increase the usefulness of the PM summons, but leave the cost the same as it is now (or even increase it).
I'd happily pay 4 AP or more for a mob worth summoning.

[Valindria]

For free? Yes - that could be overpowered

Developers: We use PM summons only because it is fun to get unique puppet :), not because of their power :(.

If not free then stupid cheap because no one will use them.

Summon Skeleton - 1 AP - Requires PM 1

Summon Blackbone - 1 AP - Requires PM 2

Summon Frostmarrow - 1 AP - Requires PM 3

The only way it should cost more AP is if you could summon one of each and have an armor. This setup When you hit PM 2 you respec to blackbone, When you hit pm3 you respec to frostmarrow. Current state I just don't see them being worth the AP when the spell damage lines have been split up.

[Scraap]

I do find myself pondering what it'd be like to see, say -

skellie summon cr = caster level
sword = pure damage amp req
archer = crit chance
mage = crit %

with the lines split by elemental investment. (so plain = force, blackbones = fire, frostmarrow = ice, conflate or new for acid and electricity).

Essentially what we've got now without the 'must spec fire even if you end with frost' bit, with a bit of a step to step amp, since even with augment summoning, the utility is pretty low by the time youre 1 level below your next summon. (and we're not even talking epics here).

Unfortunately, it's likely beyond the scope of this round of tweaks.

[Requiro]

I'd argue the opposite - I'd rather they increase the usefulness of the PM summons, but leave the cost the same as it is now (or even increase it).
I'd happily pay 4 AP or more for a mob worth summoning.

This is also good idea, but I think that impossible to implement this time. They will not change the whole summons in 2 weeks. But they can easily change requirements. That why I ask for this changes.

BTW: After U9 you will pay 4 AP more for the same mob ;) (if you want last tier of mage)

[voodoogroves]

If they were useful, I'd consider them.

As it is, I need the AP for the now-split enhancement lines. I've got no room for the summons, even though the hoppy ones amuse me.

[Requiro]

If not free then stupid cheap because no one will use them.

Summon Skeleton - 1 AP - Requires PM 1

Summon Blackbone - 1 AP - Requires PM 2

Summon Frostmarrow - 1 AP - Requires PM 3

The only way it should cost more AP is if you could summon one of each and have an armor. This setup When you hit PM 2 you respec to blackbone, When you hit pm3 you respec to frostmarrow. Current state I just don't see them being worth the AP when the spell damage lines have been split up.

This is almost my 2nd suggestion: Every wizards will take at least one spell damage line, that’s why "cost" will be marginal. With additional cost in feat, but wizards are not feat starving.

IMO: The most stupid part for now is that I must take knight and archer to take mage...

[Requiro]

BUMP...

... with additional math:

After U9, cost of the whole PrE will be: 54 AP!

And summons alone: 23 AP

New Prereq:

Summon Blackbone Knight: Flame Manipulation III - 3 AP
Summon Blackbone Archer: Combustive Spellcasting I - 1 AP
Summon Blackbone Mage: Deadly Flame II - 2 AP
Summon Frostmarrow Knight: Frost Manipulation V - 5 AP
Summon Frostmarrow Archer: Glacial Spellcasting I - 1 AP
Summon Frostmarrow Mage: Deadly Ice II - 2 AP


So for any other enhancements PM will have: 26 AP... :eek:
Is that your intention Turbine?

I'm almost sure that every PM will forget about their summons as soon as U9 will go alive.

So I ask again: please change cost of the summons. They are already week, but after this U9 they become completely useless.

[Requiro]

BUMP...

Any hope for change? :)

(yes, I'm naive... :o )

[KillEveryone]

My 2cp.

If I decide to summon a pet, it isn't going to be a undead minion.

I would have taken these AP if I could have my pet and undead minion but since it is changed, I see no reason to take the AP when I can spend it elsewhere and just load a spell.

[SirShen]

My 2cp.

If I decide to summon a pet, it isn't going to be a undead minion.

I would have taken these AP if I could have my pet and undead minion but since it is changed, I see no reason to take the AP when I can spend it elsewhere and just load a spell.

Is that true? So now u cant have summon pet and undead pet? If so im dropping all those useless undead. Nice change NOT.

[hityawithastick]

Is that true? So now u cant have summon pet and undead pet? If so im dropping all those useless undead. Nice change NOT.

Only one minion at a time?

*looks at frostmarrow*

*looks at air elemental*

Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, this is gonna be hard.

[SirShen]

Only one minion at a time?

*looks at frostmarrow*

*looks at air elemental*

Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, this is gonna be hard.

Well this U9 is just getting worse and worse, so glad iv canceled my sub. Very sad indead and iv not been playing as much since i previewed U9 on Lama. Sad times r coming.

[Scraap]

Is that true? So now u cant have summon pet and undead pet? If so im dropping all those useless undead. Nice change NOT.

just checked with summon 9, create undead, and the full line:

starting:
1 mage, 1 hez
create undead mummy
result:
1 mage, 1 mummy
summon hez
result:
1 mage, 1 hez

Not specced for the metal mutt, so can't tell if that's still on the summon chain, but the last time I'd checked it was, if anyone's curious about that bit and wants to check. (still, cr12 max...)

(as a side note, they removed the material component listing in spell selection, so the only prompt you get that you need onyx is after you try casting it. just says 'you don't have the material')

[Requiro]

My 2cp.

If I decide to summon a pet, it isn't going to be a undead minion.

I would have taken these AP if I could have my pet and undead minion but since it is changed, I see no reason to take the AP when I can spend it elsewhere and just load a spell.

Hmm... But you can still summon PM pet and normal Summon Pet.

Maybe you talk about Create Undead spell?

[KillEveryone]

just checked with summon 9, create undead, and the full line:

starting:
1 mage, 1 hez
create undead mummy
result:
1 mage, 1 mummy
summon hez
result:
1 mage, 1 hez

Not specced for the metal mutt, so can't tell if that's still on the summon chain, but the last time I'd checked it was, if anyone's curious about that bit and wants to check. (still, cr12 max...)

(as a side note, they removed the material component listing in spell selection, so the only prompt you get that you need onyx is after you try casting it. just says 'you don't have the material')

I could be rembering what I read wrong then. I could have sworn that I read somewhere that it was supposed to be changed so I haven't planned it on my pale master.