Spell Pass Preview - Chaaannggeee!

[Trillea]

I've decided to test this out in real-life.

I ran into the hallway wall 100 times now, and not once did I think I took less damage than normal (each subsequent wall-run felt just as painful as the previous). So either I didn't roll a 20 any of the 100 times (if the wall's DC is that high), or whoever thought up the idea of giving WoF a reflex save needs to re-reflect on this.

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ga/1993/ga930908.gif

[Requiro]

I must say that one more time: I like the changes. Made them in DnD style, and there will be no problem at all. In other words: don't make other WoWish MMO.

But my biggest concern is that this thread show us how many Arcane Casters in DDO are whiny, not patient and using only 2-3 spells from all available.

I don't know that there are so many uncreative Wizards around...

I hope that, these grumbling players are only 3-5% of all players in game, and rest are more creative...

Waiting for more info Torc :)

[Gratch]

I've decided to test this out in real-life.

I ran into the hallway wall 100 times now, and not once did I think I took less damage than normal (each subsequent wall-run felt just as painful as the previous). So either I didn't roll a 20 any of the 100 times (if the wall's DC is that high), or whoever thought up the idea of giving WoF a reflex save needs to re-reflect on this.


We have been withholding belief that somehow a reflex save works vs. many meter wide fireballs or columns of flame 90 meters wide from Firestorm/Flamestrike, but you don't think a reflexy type can tippy toe around a wall despite where it shows his icon? You people have a bunch of other spells to get to complaining about if you're into using real life comparisons.

[zalendar]

blah

[DelverRootnose]

Normal attacks from a weapon, not counting sneak attacks and other effects that aren't multiplied on crit (Holy, Pure Good, etc)
Light Mace, no improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 20

Heavy Pick, no improved crit = miss on 1, x4 on 20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 22

Scimitar, no improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 18-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 22

Khopesh, no improved crit = miss on 1, x3 on 19-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 23

With improved crit...

Light Mace, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 19-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 21

Heavy Pick, and improved crit = miss on 1, x4 on 19-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 25

Scimitar, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 15-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 25

Khopesh, and improved crit = miss on 1, x3 on 17-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 27

With improved crit and Kensai III

Light Mace, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 18-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 22

Heavy Pick, and improved crit = miss on 1, x4 on 18-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 28

Scimitar, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 14-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 26

Khopesh, and improved crit = miss on 1, x3 on 16-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 29

Autocrit

Light Mace in autocrit = miss on 1, x2 on 2-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 38

Heavy Pick in autocrit = miss on 1, x4 on 2-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 76

Scimitar in autocrit = miss on 1, x2 on 2-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 38

Khopesh in autocrit = miss on 1, x3 on 2-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 57


With improved crit under the new "helpless" state

Light Mace, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 19-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 21 * 1.5 = 31.5

Heavy Pick, and improved crit = miss on 1, x4 on 19-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 25 * 1.5 = 37.5

Scimitar, and improved crit = miss on 1, x2 on 15-20
Total "hits" per 20 swings = 25 * 1.5 = 37.5

Khopesh, and improved crit = miss on 1, x3 on 17-20
Total "hits per 20 swings = 27 * 1.5 = 40.5

That's a big difference. Sneak attacks and non-bursting elemental damage getting the 1.5 multiplier will help to make up some of that difference, but the Khopesh is getting a switft kick in the jimmies while the Heavy Pick is getting disemboweled and quartered.

Take a look at elemental and alignment burst damage and you'll see something similar.

Heavy Pick alignment burst in current autocrit = 5d6 = 17.5 damage * 19 = 332.5 damage per 20 swings
Heavy Pick elemental burst in current autocrit = 3d10 = 16.5 damage * 19 = 313.5 damage per 20 swings

Heavy Pick alignment burst on new "helpless" target = 5d6 = 17.5 damage * 2 * 1.5 = 52.5 damage per 20 swings
Heavy Pick elemental burst in current autocrit = 3d10 = 16.5 damage * 2 * 1.5 = 49.5 damage per 20 swings


and don't forget all the effect based things that happen on autocrit like the dreamspitter amoung others that will not happen on auto crit.

[voodoogroves]

Oh noez!

Tehy haz taeken hour fier wallz aweigh! DOOOOOOOOOooooOOOOOooooOOOOOM!!!1!11!!!1!!!one!!!e leven!!!exclamationpoint!!111!

It saddens me that it will take a nerf of this size to force arcane casters to expand their bag of tricks to include tools of other shapes and sizes. It also saddens me that 9 spells were chosen as 'Examples', and everyone has already assumed that every other available spell is going to suck, in spite of the lack of evidence to confirm that assumption.

Seriously, look at the boost to single target nuking! Look at the CC potential! Look at the SP savings! Want to talk about a class being religated to nothing but buffing? Look at Bards. That's pretty much all they ever were, and we hear no complaints from that group, and their Buff role extends from lvl 1 straight up to end game and epic. How is this change (nerf) any different than the change (nerf) to TWF/Ranged/Glancing Blows? How many of you lot with full casters as your mains came out to chest thump and nerd-rage against those changes?

'This new thing is bad!'

Everyone has already assumed that the cap to the SP Regen mechanic is 12, even though Torc implicitly stated that those numbers were EXAMPLES only. No numbers for lvl 2-20 have been mentioned, and no one really seems to have picked up that this mechanic applies to ALL full caster classes (Those with magical training as a granted feat at lvl 1).

Cool your nerd rage already, and give it a chance. The real test isn't the teaser posts. The real test is Lamannia. I'm just sad that I don't have a primary caster to port over when the U9 release drops on the preview servers so I can voice an informed opinion.

Not everyone has the same issue. I'm not seeing strong arcane cc at all without an effective way to chain and target debuffs and cc.

Lamaland is the real test.

[Bladedge]

If you want PnP or as close as possible the WoF will hurt party members and the caster
I wanted friendly fire long time ago it never happen, the devs even mention why there is no friendly fire long ago.


and also the enemy would either run in fear.
WoF does not cause fear effect on enemies in PnP, but if it needed in DDO to keep them out of the wall, Iam for it.


Even better or run around it and then it would be totally usless.
That is the DDO AI problem, see above.


Please stop trying to use the PnP theory to be mad at the WoF change its just weak.

You the one that is weak for even saying 1)that Iam mad at the change which Iam not, I just don't like the way they went about it.
2) and name calling.

[PopeJual]

The lowbie regen is just a joke.


I actually like that part. It's infinite spell points when someone is in the "what the hell amd I doing here?" phase of play and it's unlimited Wings of Faith/Air Savant jump/Archmage SLA.

It's not enough to make anyone actually want to wait around for the spell points in order to take on a significant chunk of a quest with those "free" spell points, but it is enough that you can dump everything you have at a boss even if you end up completely dry and then get back your free/nearly free abilities to help you get to the next shrine.

[Calebro]

The ap point cost so far is where you break my back. Your basically saying I am going to lose a ton of my diversity and must play the game your way with 1 good tree and the rest lacking.

No one is saying that.
All you have to do is choose not to take a PrE on your Sorc, then you'll have all elements equal, just like you do now.

[Zzevel]

So your basically taking how arcanes currently work, and trying to COMPLETELY change how they work in one patch?

I hope you've done your research well turbine.

The metas are what make spells expensive, changing the base cost a bit wont help if you like to actually hurt things (I.e. using metas...).


Exactly, at least ypu could only apply the metas that affect the spell to the SP cost rather than a blanket affect for all spells weather or not the meta works with the spell...


What a bunch of **** is all I gotta say. between this ant the TWF changes the devs really are trying to ruin the game, you can tell most do not play or play to little to know whats going on.

[Jaid314]

No one is saying that.
All you have to do is choose not to take a PrE on your Sorc, then you'll have all elements equal, just like you do now.

err... no. he's referring to the AP costs for elemental damage lines. it will cost 19 for one element under the new update, whereas it costs 22 AP for two elements right now.

[Chidane]

I may have overreacted with my first post, I have always complained about never being asked to do anything but firewall that thing! Perhaps this is a change for the better.:D

[DelverRootnose]

Barbarian is specced for any damage. Or a fighter, rogue, paladin, ranger, battle bard, etc. And if you want 'ranged' damage, take Arcane Archer.

Edit: what I want to say is, that if I want 'direct single target damage' I can already take 1 bajilion existing builds. Arcanes is(was) interesting because of 'other' things. And other things are getting a nerfbat.

I wish I hadn't given all my +1s away. This is why arcanes are not going to get groups and this game is becomming hack and slash with a few limited nuking being done. No subtlty at all anymore.

[Irinis]

Longer cooldowns on death effects are not fun. Wail was a TON of fun. It used to be the one spell I really looked forward to getting on my caster just so I could go "wheeeee!" in vale and shroud. The sound effect and visual effect made it more fun than any other spell. Once every 30 seconds now? You're kidding right? Right?

Wail, finger, nuke, wail, finger, nuke... Now I might just not carry it anymore on a wiz/rog and tell people I'm not killing trash in part 1 shroud, I'm nuking portals and they can go kill their own trash, because I needed the spell slot for some useful debuff that's way less fun but I can cast over and over. :(

Everyone and their dog has those event scimis anyway right?

[DelverRootnose]

I LoLed







Seem to be the same, sleep makes them helpless so now may be better than hypno. It also causes them to lay down, which means thay have to get up - animation to react after damage may be longer than hypno.


I haven't read the whole thread but at first I thought - good; thinking more I really worry that this will make casters a whole let less useful. While damage apparently is gettiung a buff, it still isn't comparable to melee.

Even with all of these changes, mass hold is still an effective stategy, immobolive a group of mobs, do 50% more damage than otherwise is still the WIN button, it will just take longer and use more resources. In epics, my cleric barely uses cures except on boss fights, hopefully these changes will make them more challenging without making them impossible.

A lot of people referred to ToD-2 as being a potential problem with WoF nerf, any thought to Shroud-1? Might require 2 scouts to kill the mobs now.


Sleep and hypno wil be about as effective as facinate with a bunch of stupid great axe weilders running all over the place.

[Aashrym]

Sleep and hypno wil be about as effective as facinate with a bunch of stupid great axe weilders running all over the place.

I'm not sure about that. It's supposed to be a helpless state until attacked. That's a cheap and quick +50% damage bonus compared to hypno or fascinate if that is in the implementation.

If. I don't recall the last time I tried sleep. Maybe I'll go play with it a bit after work.

[voodoogroves]

Longer cooldowns on death effects are not fun. Wail was a TON of fun. It used to be the one spell I really looked forward to getting on my caster just so I could go "wheeeee!" in vale and shroud. The sound effect and visual effect made it more fun than any other spell. Once every 30 seconds now? You're kidding right? Right?

Wail, finger, nuke, wail, finger, nuke... Now I might just not carry it anymore on a wiz/rog and tell people I'm not killing trash in part 1 shroud, I'm nuking portals and they can go kill their own trash, because I needed the spell slot for some useful debuff that's way less fun but I can cast over and over. :(

Everyone and their dog has those event scimis anyway right?

Yep. I always carried portal beaters anyway.

This "Now I might just not carry it anymore" is the hidden cost or action efficiency and simple hot-bar planning. The things people use, gravitate towards keys. The things that are rarely used get placed on more extraneous bars.

If I have to debuff/CC all the time and there isn't a good mechanism to chain those together, I won't. I blast. If I have to wait a long time before casting that other spell, I'm not going to watch the timer, I'm going to blast. Especially if blasting is boosted.

Or really, depending on how the preview looks on Lamania, TR my wizard to a Bard. Then again half the bard songs are bugged right now.

[voodoogroves]

I'm not sure about that. It's supposed to be a helpless state until attacked. That's a cheap and quick +50% damage bonus compared to hypno or fascinate if that is in the implementation.

If. I don't recall the last time I tried sleep. Maybe I'll go play with it a bit after work.

I think his point was that they wouldn't stay down for long with glancing blows, etc.

[Torc]

Doesn't matter, cause no one will be using Lightning Bolt, as they're nerfing the base damage to 1d3 (as opposed to the prior 1d6)

I'm not sure what this post is based on but spell damage dice is not changing.

Traditionally in DDO Direct damage or "instant" damage spells use "loaded" dice, where we give you half the value and then roll the second half.

Example: Lightning bolt does a d6 per level, but actually roll 3+1d3 per die. So the average tends to be 5. This prevents you from rolling a ton of 1s and getting a crappy lightning bolt.

Now Dots typically roll true dice: 1d4 will really be a range of 1 - 4.

But anyhow, the base method of how we do spell damage dice isn't changing :D Been that way awhile.

[Aashrym]

I think his point was that they wouldn't stay down for long with glancing blows, etc.

Perhaps so. But if sleep gives us sleep and ignore or sleep and get +50% until a break on hit effect I can see sleep being useful as an actual bard area helpless effect spell. That's something we didn't have before. Sounds expensive to abuse.

I would be curious about changes to deep slumber too.

[Calebro]

err... no. he's referring to the AP costs for elemental damage lines. it will cost 19 for one element under the new update, whereas it costs 22 AP for two elements right now.

Well it still isn't true.
With the enhancements being more front loaded now, it's much easier to get a balanced run across all elements. Sure, if you want to max an element then it'll cost more, and rightly so. But that also includes a damage enhancement to +50%, which never existed before.
So to put it in more equal terms, you have to say that it will cost 17ap to get the equivalent in one element for what you have now. That leaves 5ap left from your 22, which is enough to add +30% damage, and 4% x1.75 crit on the second.
If you wanted to be more well rounded, it is now MUCH easier to do so.

But more well rounded is the purview of Wizards. Sorcs were made to specialize.
These changes not only make sense, but allow a caster to specialize even more then before, and that's not even counting the PrE at all.

[Aashrym]

I'm not sure what this post is based on but spell damage dice is not changing.

Traditionally in DDO Direct damage or "instant" damage spells use "loaded" dice, where we give you half the value and then roll the second half.

Example: Lightning bolt does a d6 per level, but actually roll 3+1d3 per die. So the average tends to be 5. This prevents you from rolling a ton of 1s and getting a crappy lightning bolt.

Now Dots typically roll true dice: 1d4 will really be a range of 1 - 4.

But anyhow, the base method of how we do spell damage dice isn't changing :D Been that way awhile.

I bet it took some time to catch up on this thread. ;)

Any more tidbits coming?

[Elucidus]

I am loving the changes. Especially firewall. This isn't WoW and there shouldn't be one end all be all spell.

I can't wait to see these and the other changes in action.

[Aaxeyu]

Epic mobs will have their HP cut in half and are no longer immune to instakill effects.

Neg rep for helping out? Very mature.

[Calebro]

Longer cooldowns on death effects are not fun. Wail was a TON of fun. It used to be the one spell I really looked forward to getting on my caster just so I could go "wheeeee!" in vale and shroud. The sound effect and visual effect made it more fun than any other spell. Once every 30 seconds now? You're kidding right? Right?

This is the part that I find funny.
Everyone cries that they want less easy buttons.
Then everyone cries when their easy buttons are taken away.

Which is it? Do you want easy buttons or not? Because WoB on a practically non-existent cooldown is an easy button.
And we all know it.

[Greeka]

Not sure if this posted somewhere else, but I got tired of the gloom and doom posts. My main is a wizard and I have always loved the arcane spell casting class. As such my only hope is that all the spells descriptor files will be properly updated with the new changes to any of the spells facing changes and have all damage dice, duration, saves, spell resistance checks all properly indicated within the spell descriptors and tool tips on the spells.

As long as this is in place we will adapt.

[Thrudh]

Rebalancing Said Variant System Even If It Pulls You Out Of The 4-spell Comfort System Is Fine By Me.

+1

[DelverRootnose]

I'm not sure what this post is based on but spell damage dice is not changing.

Traditionally in DDO Direct damage or "instant" damage spells use "loaded" dice, where we give you half the value and then roll the second half.

Example: Lightning bolt does a d6 per level, but actually roll 3+1d3 per die. So the average tends to be 5. This prevents you from rolling a ton of 1s and getting a crappy lightning bolt.

Now Dots typically roll true dice: 1d4 will really be a range of 1 - 4.

But anyhow, the base method of how we do spell damage dice isn't changing :D Been that way awhile.

oh don't get me started on how you roll dice since 2d6 is not the same as 2-12 damage.

[gone430]

caster are the best crowd control in the game. no other class really has the same ability to damage or disable a mob. so why do they have to make it so they favor single target spells now?

[Lifespawn]

This is the part that I find funny.
Everyone cries that they want less easy buttons.
Then everyone cries when their easy buttons are taken away.

Which is it? Do you want easy buttons or not? Because WoB on a practically non-existent cooldown is an easy button.
And we all know it.


I personally don't want an easy but what i do want is more useful spells the overuse of firewall was not because it was the easiest it's because it was the only spell that was efficient for high hp mobs that were not immune to fire.

With this change to firewall can we get energy substitution please?

[Renegade66]

• HD/HP caps we’re removed from most effects (yeah, I guess I should talk about death effects now, but oh, sleep works now!)



Does this hold for Symbol of Death and Undeath to Death, where it affects a maximum number of HD/HP? If so, 20 seconds of kiting mobs through a Symbol of Death sounds pretty uber.

[ahpook]

I've decided to test this out in real-life.

I ran into the hallway wall 100 times now, and not once did I think I took less damage than normal (each subsequent wall-run felt just as painful as the previous). So either I didn't roll a 20 any of the 100 times (if the wall's DC is that high), or whoever thought up the idea of giving WoF a reflex save needs to re-reflect on this.

So you are saying it should be a will save? Boost your wisdom and you might have made a save much, much earlier.

Reflex save seems reasonable to me. I notice that a flaming wall just popped up in front of me and I change my course in time to avoid it. This is hardly the worst case of reflex being a bit of a stretch in this game.

[Calebro]

I personally don't want an easy but what i do want is more useful spells the overuse of firewall was not because it was the easiest it's because it was the only spell that was efficient for high hp mobs that were not immune to fire.

With this change to firewall can we get energy substitution please?

The various PrE's SLAs have rectified that. Fully meta'd and/or scaling spells at an extremely low cost. There's your efficiency.

Previously I was under the "Energy Substitution would be overpowered, specifically because of WoF" group.
Now, with these changes to WoF, I'm no longer of the same mind.
Energy Substitution would have been a horribly broken feat before. But now I think it's time to rethink that.
Now it wouldn't be so broken.

That ALONE means that these changes, while seemingly harsh, are indeed good for the game.

[Zachski]

Um.

Sorry, but that just cries "Being taken out of my comfort zone."

It's an insta-kill spell. As in, you cast it, enemies DIE. It can have a reasonably high success rate. And now reasonably high damage even if the enemy saves against it.

It SHOULD be a spell that you can't cast rapidly or even all that frequently.

I'm not saying you shouldn't use it, but I don't think it was a spell that was meant to be relied on. You can still use it, mind you, but now you have to insert other spells into your rotation.

[DelverRootnose]

Um.

Sorry, but that just cries "Being taken out of my comfort zone."

It's an insta-kill spell. As in, you cast it, enemies DIE. It can have a reasonably high success rate. And now reasonably high damage even if the enemy saves against it.

It SHOULD be a spell that you can't cast rapidly or even all that frequently.

I'm not saying you shouldn't use it, but I don't think it was a spell that was meant to be relied on. You can still use it, mind you, but now you have to insert other spells into your rotation.

so we have to insert new spells into a rotation now do we. Well I say melees can only swing the same weapon 10 times between shrines before they have to use another weapon to increase thier damage rotation.

[Zachski]

so we have to insert new spells into a rotation now do we. Well I say melees can only swing the same weapon 10 times between shrines before they have to use another weapon to increase thier damage rotation.

That doesn't even make sense. Besides, Melees DO have to change weapons to maximize damage against certain enemy types.

[Calebro]

so we have to insert new spells into a rotation now do we. Well I say melees can only swing the same weapon 10 times between shrines before they have to use another weapon to increase thier damage rotation.

A better comparison would be taking an instant death weapon like a vorpal and changing it somehow so it wasn't quite so powerful and couldn't be used in every circumstance.

....oh, wait.... they did that too. :rolleyes:

edit:
And before you tell me that vorpals now do 100 damage if the target has more than 1k hp.... they added more damage to insta-death spells on a successful save.
So it's still the same thing.

[DelverRootnose]

This is the part that I find funny.
Everyone cries that they want less easy buttons.
Then everyone cries when their easy buttons are taken away.

Which is it? Do you want easy buttons or not? Because WoB on a practically non-existent cooldown is an easy button.
And we all know it.

people only cry about OTHER people's easy button not thier own. I mean can you imagine the fits people would be having if they changed barbarian rage to have a 2 minute exhaustion effect after a 20 second rage that would lower the barb strength by 6 and could not be removed.

[KreepyKritter]

so we have to insert new spells into a rotation now do we. Well I say melees can only swing the same weapon 10 times between shrines before they have to use another weapon to increase thier damage rotation.

You show me a melee who isn't swapping weaponsets at LEAST ten times per shrine and I'll show you a melee who hasn't got his hot-bars arranged properly, or doesn't have the plat to gear his toon properly.

[DelverRootnose]

That doesn't even make sense. Besides, Melees DO have to change weapons to maximize damage against certain enemy types.

no it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense for the caster or the melee. And you don't think casters don't already have to mix it up for different mobs. When was the last time you saw a firewall on harry without laughing.

[hityawithastick]

We're wizards (and sorcerers... I guess). We have somewhere between 15 and 30 spells at our fingertips. But OH NOES now we might need to use more than three of them! :D

[rest]

Still bitter about the wail cooldown change. UNLESS you'll be lowering the cool down on implosion to 30 seconds. Then I can deal with it. :D

[rfachini]

You may have this in the works already, but I'd really appreciate a pass on summons to make them more effective. (Create Undead as more than just an asteroid shield, anyone? :D) Maybe even increasing summons with caster level so Summon Monster I wouldn't be completely pointless to use at level 8? Finally, (and this is getting ahead of myself and may be off-topic)-- addressing familiars (they could be an AP summon like rogue's mithral defenders, for example).

[Missing_Minds]

I'm not sure what this post is based on but spell damage dice is not changing.

Does this show you how bad displaying that notation is yet?

[Saravis]

Are the mechanics of frost lance going to undergo any changes? With the upcoming Savants; fireball, lightning, and acid blast are all capable of being improved by the +3 increase in max lvl. Frost Lance, on the other hand, would not. Please adjust this spell so that its capable of being improved by the max lvl increase.

-thanks

[Requiro]

Torc.

I repeat my question :) and bring some more.

- Are there any changes in Pale Master and Archmage PrE with new Arcane Casting system?
- Are there any changes in Create Undead, Slow, Symbols spells?
- Are spell clickies on weapons will be change as well?
- Are Bard spell will be change as well?
- Are feats: Spell Focus: Conjuration will improve Summon Monster spell (like improve CR)?
- Are there any new spells? Specially level 9 and 5. If yes please be inspired by DnD not by any others "sources"

[Torc]

Seconded.

Also, are there plans in place to work on the frankly sad number of divine spells in the game, especially versus arcane? Taking out spells common to both classes, arcanes have 142 and divines have only half that--76 (assuming my math is correct at this late hour). I feel like I have absolutely no options on my divines. I do hope you go through the arcane and divine spells differently, as the play styles of the classes do differ.

Also: if Implosion Aura's cooldown was among those doubled, I'm gonna be one sad little cleric. Implosion's cooldown already feels far too long for what the spell actually does.

Here are some sample changes to the divine side of things…

Nimbus of light: reduced to 4 SP.
Command: reduced to 6 SP.
Cure Light Wounds: reduced to 8 SP.
Cure Moderate Wounds: reduced to 12 SP.
Bestow Curse: reduced to 10 SP
Searing Light: reduced to 8 SP.

Contagion: Cost reduced to 8 SP. Diseases provided by this spell that do ability damage now do it at a rate of X stat damage every 30 seconds instead of 60 seconds. Slimy Doom now does 6d6 acid damage every 6 seconds. As before two saves apply, one against damage, if successful save again to end the effect.

Glyph of Warding: reduced to 6 SP. 15 second cool down.
Divine Power: Now uses a faster cast animation. Cost unchanged.
Holy Smite: reduced to 15 SP.
Implosion: Cost & cool down unchanged, but now does 4 – 6 pts of untyped damage per caster level on a successful save to the target. Failed save results in death (still!).

and some Bard love...

Shout: Cost reduced to 6 SP, uses faster casting animation. Change shared with wizards/sorcerers.

Great Shout: Cost reduced to 15 SP, uses faster cast animation. Change shared with wizards/sorcerers.

[Chidane]

How will heighten work now?

[Trillea]

How will heighten work now?

Eladrin said heighten is unchanged - adds 5 sp per spell level. This should be changed ASAP IMO.

[Trillea]

Here are some sample changes to the divine side of things…
<snip cleric spell changes that make sense>

My sorc feels like she just got hit by a Shin Shoryuken.

[KreepyKritter]

Here are some sample changes to the divine side of things…

Nimbus of light: reduced to 4 SP.
Command: reduced to 6 SP.
Cure Light Wounds: reduced to 8 SP.
Cure Moderate Wounds: reduced to 12 SP.
Bestow Curse: reduced to 10 SP
Searing Light: reduced to 8 SP.

Contagion: Cost reduced to 8 SP. Diseases provided by this spell that do ability damage now do it at a rate of X stat damage every 30 seconds instead of 60 seconds. Slimy Doom now does 6d6 acid damage every 6 seconds. As before two saves apply, one against damage, if successful save again to end the effect.

Glyph of Warding: reduced to 6 SP. 15 second cool down.
Divine Power: Now uses a faster cast animation. Cost unchanged.
Holy Smite: reduced to 15 SP.
Implosion: Cost & cool down unchanged, but now does 4 – 6 pts of untyped damage per caster level on a successful save to the target. Failed save results in death (still!).

and some Bard love...

Shout: Cost reduced to 6 SP, uses faster casting animation. Change shared with wizards/sorcerers.

Great Shout: Cost reduced to 15 SP, uses faster cast animation. Change shared with wizards/sorcerers.

Okay, so healing at low levels just got easier... Now show me how you made Snare and Spike Growth not suck.

Now that you've made my wife's cleric happy, make my ranger happy.

[Gratch]

Torc,

Thank for the divine info. Hoping you start pushing some more druid/cleric shared spells soon... and then... druid spells with druids... also soon.

Since Tolero sits next to you. Tell her to go flip the off/on switch on Ghallanda... it's down as of this posting.

[voodoogroves]

With the SP reductions is the intent to see casters casting more AP/item boosted, non-metamagic'd DPS spells? A small drop in SP cost for the spell but a large SP-tax for metamagic is pretty significant.

Focus on Contagion and similar spells is probably misdirected; few targets have the HP for long-term stat damage to matter versus just beating them down - and the ones that have the HP likely have immunity to the stat damage.

Will shout and greater shout have CL-based, uncapped damage? If not, that's not really much bard love as they won't hit the DCs to matter and the damage won't scale with caster level. I'm curious how many bards actually prep shout/greater.

With rays getting free enlarges, will that also apply to AM / PM SLAs? Searing Light (spell and capstone)?

[Zachski]

My sorc feels like she just got hit by a Shin Shoryuken.

Even though it's basically the same changes?


no it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense for the caster or the melee. And you don't think casters don't already have to mix it up for different mobs. When was the last time you saw a firewall on harry without laughing.

You misunderstood.

I said that the comparison doesn't make sense. Especially since Melees are already doing more changing than that. And especially since you expect to be able to do what you think Melees are doing - one button success.

You picked a spell-casting class, it SHOULD be more complex than melee. The fact that it currently isn't means that something got borked along the way.

[Riggs]

Re OP

Very nice.

[Alexander_Illusioni]

Here are some sample changes to the divine side of things…

Nimbus of light: reduced to 4 SP.
Command: reduced to 6 SP.
Cure Light Wounds: reduced to 8 SP.
Cure Moderate Wounds: reduced to 12 SP.
Bestow Curse: reduced to 10 SP
Searing Light: reduced to 8 SP.

Contagion: Cost reduced to 8 SP. Diseases provided by this spell that do ability damage now do it at a rate of X stat damage every 30 seconds instead of 60 seconds. Slimy Doom now does 6d6 acid damage every 6 seconds. As before two saves apply, one against damage, if successful save again to end the effect.

Glyph of Warding: reduced to 6 SP. 15 second cool down.
Divine Power: Now uses a faster cast animation. Cost unchanged.
Holy Smite: reduced to 15 SP.
Implosion: Cost & cool down unchanged, but now does 4 – 6 pts of untyped damage per caster level on a successful save to the target. Failed save results in death (still!).

and some Bard love...

Shout: Cost reduced to 6 SP, uses faster casting animation. Change shared with wizards/sorcerers.

Great Shout: Cost reduced to 15 SP, uses faster cast animation. Change shared with wizards/sorcerers.


You left out an important one.....any changes to blade barrier (cool downs, damage)?

[Trillea]

Even though it's basically the same changes?


True, on second look I notice a DISTINCT lack of detail on how blade barrier (closest divine DPS spell to wall of fire) is affected.

[Siskel]

So am I understanding Power Word Kill correctly? Get six arcanes with the spell and round up as many targets and possible. Arcane One casts the spell. Rotate who gets aggro and who casts the spell. Not too bad with 6 arcanes. This will work in epic?

[Zachski]

So am I understanding Power Word Kill correctly? Get six arcanes with the spell and round up as many targets and possible. Arcane One casts the spell. Rotate who gets aggro and who casts the spell. Not too bad with 6 arcanes. This will work in epic?

Truth be told, 6 Arcanes taking turn Wailing would probably be a bit more efficient.

[Siskel]

Truth be told, 6 Arcanes taking turn Wailing would probably be a bit more efficient.

No save on PWK.

[Kadagan]

Not only are you (turbine developers or whatever person[s] are responsible for the Firewall nerf) forcing us to change our play style by letting mobs save against one of our bread and butter spells, but you are also making it more difficult (expensive) to cast..

It's like giving your kid a toy... seeing that they enjoy it too much and stopped playing with some of their other toys... so then you half break the new toy and encourage them to play with the other ones....

I want to say something that will get me banned... but let me say this instead.

... I'm a ****ed off customer (at least for now)..

[Zachski]

No save on PWK.

PWK targets one enemy, doesn't it?

Wail targets multiple enemies.

[Siskel]

PWK targets one enemy, doesn't it?

Wail targets multiple enemies.

That is where I was mistaken. Seemed too good to be true.

[Zachski]

Not only are you (turbine developers or whatever person[s] are responsible for the Firewall nerf) forcing us to change our play style by letting mobs save against one of our bread and butter spells, but you are also making it more difficult (expensive) to cast..

It's like giving your kid a toy... seeing that they enjoy it too much and stopped playing with some of their other toys... so then you half break the new toy and encourage them to play with the other ones....

I want to say something that will get me banned... but let me say this instead.

... I'm a ****ed off customer (at least for now)..

*facepalm*

As people have repeatedly pointed out, the save is only for the first tick of damage, to compensate for the fact that the AI will just blunder into the firewall - it's meant to simulate an attempt to avoid the firewall. They'll still roast fine just sitting in it, with no saves. Not to mention, as people have said repeatedly as well, reflex saves are generally the lowest saves enemies have. You'll still be seeing your full damage frequently enough.

Your toy is not "broken" in any sense of the word.

[LookingForABentoBox]

You left out an important one.....any changes to blade barrier (cool downs, damage)?

Well the new favored soul angel of vengeance prestige class will allow you to do more damage with blade barrier

[Calebro]

Well the new favored soul angel of vengeance prestige class will allow you to do more damage with blade barrier

There's a whole thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=305987) on that.

[jortann]

Here are some sample changes to the divine side of things…

Nimbus of light: reduced to 4 SP.
Command: reduced to 6 SP.
Cure Light Wounds: reduced to 8 SP.
Cure Moderate Wounds: reduced to 12 SP.
Bestow Curse: reduced to 10 SP
Searing Light: reduced to 8 SP.

Contagion: Cost reduced to 8 SP. Diseases provided by this spell that do ability damage now do it at a rate of X stat damage every 30 seconds instead of 60 seconds. Slimy Doom now does 6d6 acid damage every 6 seconds. As before two saves apply, one against damage, if successful save again to end the effect.

Glyph of Warding: reduced to 6 SP. 15 second cool down.
Divine Power: Now uses a faster cast animation. Cost unchanged.
Holy Smite: reduced to 15 SP.
Implosion: Cost & cool down unchanged, but now does 4 – 6 pts of untyped damage per caster level on a successful save to the target. Failed save results in death (still!).

and some Bard love...

Shout: Cost reduced to 6 SP, uses faster casting animation. Change shared with wizards/sorcerers.

Great Shout: Cost reduced to 15 SP, uses faster cast animation. Change shared with wizards/sorcerers.

Hey Torc LIVES!

I thought he was ignoring us....

I still want to know what changes are coming to the metas.... will it cost 25sp to maximize a 6sp scorching ray? or will this be more relative to the base cost of the spell. I don't want to have to be switching maximize off and on in this new era of wizard spell casting.


And as for you clerics... now its your turn to be upset... oh.... uhhh... eerrrr.. wait all your stuff got better... nevermind

[Lifespawn]

No save on PWK.

single target

[steelblueskies]

dumbing down: if the spell changes result in almost every spell setup being equivalently viable then there is no way to fail, therefore no thinking required. this in and of itself could be a good or bad thing depending on perspective. but would generally be in line with fixing things as a more abstract goal. hell w.o.w. had regen, and they had to up it TWICE at least in starter areas. there's slow to catch on then there's slow to catch on, if you follow.


how many parties moan and whine because they cannot see thanks to spell effects as is- dancing ball, web, cloud spells, wall of fire, hypno orb, and more all get this quite often, especially when spammed multiple times. yes it is their machine not keeping pace, and yes its the engine handling a "pretty" effect poorly. only applies to persistent effects however. guess one way to fix this was to shovel everyone towards singletarget bolt/ray/blast effects, and instagibs.

the real drawbacks to some alternatives come in with cast times. i've seen incendiary cloud proposed as a firewall replacement. this has an extended cast sequence. think how it would have changed wall of fire if that long cast time applied to it as it is otherwise. not to mention its **** damage that still looks to be **** damage after, nastier graphical effect(see above), and well nigh impossible to visually judge position( yes its about the size of a blade barrier, and dome shaped).

i also find it ironic that a warforged wizard with rogue splash was common for new players and recommended to them. not for the boost to casting, but for the versatility in skills, improved survivability and added self healing. ditto for the second recommendation there involving pale masters( which drive many healer types to frustration mind you, not to mention aura nastiness). yet the changes to make arcane easier take a totally different direction.

so you wanted to fix the spell system. good. you had to make some changes to fix some content. you had to make other changes to fix your ideas for a sorc pre, fine. you still have item properties to rework based on that as is too. and of course rebalancing EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF OLD CONTENT around the new spells, or else leave mobs with separate versions of the same spells( i.e. the old ones). in the process you will either have to essentially give out the equivalent of free lesser reincarnations to a pair of classes, if not several to accomodate the changes, or else tell the playerbase " yes we did this, give us money to work around it, or reroll" with the latter being pretty definitively a d*** move. but we get something out of it, at least potentially. it of course has yet to be seen if that something will be a new system that is better in some way, or just a lateral move as it seems.

and yeah without that rebalance or schism between monster spells and player spells, this is going to be a nerf to melee as well. a nasty one.

this new thing, it is not bad per se, but if it isn't good, then the effort wasted on it instead of other things IS BAD. but hey it's not like we are doing the work or wasted effort. we simply clamor for more things to do, more content which takes months to put together, and watch you rebalance the entire game system. it seems like its paving the way for a more fully implemented crafting system at the same time, and potentially making epic viable for builds not specifically crafted for epics. again, this could be good or bad depending on perspective.

as to boring. pnp like. etc. firewall is boring. anything can be boring when used/done enough. running the same content on every toon with the only variables being latency, mob health/damage, and party composition is boring. this is why new content is something we clamor for.

changing it to require vertigo inducing fps style pew pew? or necessitating multiple casts to accomplish the same result? or simply changing from cast and run, to stand and spam? seriously, how is this an improvement? it's different to be sure, but again lateral move not improvement. if we wanted hard pnp faithfulness we would buy wotc's dnd online system for dm run play via pc. it comes with subscription to some online content system they have for dnd too.

this has always been different, due to its engine, and while one could argue that modules created with input from people such as gygax(delera's) would be different if they were asked to work on it with these changes in place as opposed to the old system, remember that pnp module's were guides, and could be modified by gm to suit anyway. so no issue there in truth.

hell some of the most ANNOYING IN PRACTICE things like acid cloud or melfs constantly ticking and interrupting at lower levels just got worse. and for use on mobs, well enlarge built in means higher end systems will have more advantage then non ultra high draw distance players. (see hound of xoriat no trash strategy), and the affected mobs even at range will still not get nearly a full run before melee hack them to pieces. and this type of seeming uselessness riddles what HAS been presented so far.

again i say: what tactics do you dev's actually see/use that you are making these changes to ensure are viable. provide examples, and tell us you tried them in person, rather then on a whiteboard. game design and engineering is a wonderful thing, but with no real world experimentation, all the whiteboarding in the world can leave you with some very very ugly oversights. i and other's i am sure appreciate the usually painful thing that is sharing details of plans ahead of time with the community, but let's face it, we all have to live with what goes live, so the concerns are real, and we all have varying degrees of vested interest in this being workable. you guys miss something glaring enough to kill playerbase, and we might lose the game altogether due to lack of finance, so those of us with time and money invested here have even more concern.

are spells misfiring( ie mob runs past and spell fails to cast but eats sp) getting fixed? how about phasing/burrowing creatures causing misses and sp loss? ray spells still missing? things like these were also bars to usefulness to many spell types as they cost efficiency.

then there's consistency. we can take 15 minutes for a mage to cast a portal spell in weapons shipment, to bring in the big hurt, but almost everything else goes off in 6 seconds or less? tossing a meteor swarm should wreck everything, but it should cost, both in cast time and sp, not be just another quick moderate damage nuke. power word type spell with long cooldown? its instant by design, so that makes some sense.

wall of fire. the sp was fine. the duration was probably fine as was the ability to extend. damage was iffy. problem was it was a near instant cast. if you must quicken it or have a screen of melee for a few seconds to get it off, else cast it and pull mobs to it due to cast time, that would have changed things too. heck making it cast like most could spells would have done it. it still wouldn't have been useful in much beyond vale.

ah well. i yield. torc, kudo's to posting it at all, and the same to fernando and eladrin. keep up the work on having the brassies, and working towards the good.just remember to keep an ear and an eye open to the feedback, and play it before you toss it out. that's all we can ask really.

p.s. guess hold for reinforcements just go oh so much more special. mr instagib coyle, vs improved mephit burning hands. yay. (shoot me now).

[Aashrym]

Will shout and greater shout have CL-based, uncapped damage? If not, that's not really much bard love as they won't hit the DCs to matter and the damage won't scale with caster level. I'm curious how many bards actually prep shout/greater.

I carry greater shout on a CHA spellsinger. It's more a toy than anything else.

With the SP cost down I might do it more. Since it's the only real direct damage spell available and I have sonic spell enhancements included with healing I use it. Otherwise I wouldn't bother, and normally only use it soloing when I do need a burst of damage to a group. Maximized and Empowered it normally hits anywhere from 350-750 damage per target for an outrageous cost. ;)

Stunning some mobs does help, but the spell could really stand to have the same stunning effect as melee with the helpless effect coming up.

I never waste a slot on shout.

[Zachski]

I will admit that 240 seconds is too long of a cooldown for a single target spell, even if it is a no-save insta-kill.

I'd honestly rather it cost an obscene amount of SP. Perhaps 100? 200?

[voodoogroves]

*facepalm*

As people have repeatedly pointed out, the save is only for the first tick of damage, to compensate for the fact that the AI will just blunder into the firewall - it's meant to simulate an attempt to avoid the firewall. They'll still roast fine just sitting in it, with no saves. Not to mention, as people have said repeatedly as well, reflex saves are generally the lowest saves enemies have. You'll still be seeing your full damage frequently enough.

Your toy is not "broken" in any sense of the word.

No, the reflex save doesn't break anything. It is still lame.

Even if you drop the damage it's still a good damage over time spell.

What it really means though is that we won't be kiting epic trash through the wall, the wizard will be perching or hanging from a platform. 'cause that's not lame either.

[Asketes]

You left out an important one.....any changes to blade barrier (cool downs, damage)?

/sarcasm
240 second cooldown, reflex save set to a permanent 10 to negate all damage
/sarcasm

:D:D:D:D

[darksol23]

You left out an important one.....any changes to blade barrier (cool downs, damage)?

+1 Inquiring minds want to know!

[Zachski]

No, the reflex save doesn't break anything. It is still lame.

Even if you drop the damage it's still a good damage over time spell.

What it really means though is that we won't be kiting epic trash through the wall, the wizard will be perching or hanging from a platform. 'cause that's not lame either.

So, basically, your complaint is solely that you might have to... *gasp* make a new strategy for a change.

Oh how terrible, I see your point.

[PopeJual]

/sarcasm
240 second cooldown, reflex save set to a permanent 10 to negate all damage
/sarcasm

:D:D:D:D

Cool, my Soul Survivor will get a boost in DC for his BB's! :)

[voodoogroves]

So, basically, your complaint is solely that you might have to... *gasp* make a new strategy for a change.

Oh how terrible, I see your point.

No. That's an old strategy. And it's lame. Seriously you've not run epics and seen this?

[Aerendil]

and some Bard love...

Shout: Cost reduced to 6 SP, uses faster casting animation. Change shared with wizards/sorcerers.

Great Shout: Cost reduced to 15 SP, uses faster cast animation. Change shared with wizards/sorcerers.

Any chance of some further Bard love via expanded spell lists?
Bards, via enhancements, specialize in Sonic and Healing spells.

Right now there is *1* damaging Sonic spell of use to Bards at endgame - Greater Shout.
So all that sonic/healing damage from enhancements, as well as sonic lore and resonance/cacophany items - all to boost one spell.

Some new spells (i.e. options) would go a long way. And plenty of candidates available as well - some quick examples, in NWN2 Bards could cast "cacophonic burst" (think upgraded sonic burst) and dismissal, or in Complete Adventurer there are a slew of spells as well (bladewave, dissonant chord, sonic weapon, wail of doom, cacophonic shield).

[voodoogroves]

I will admit that 240 seconds is too long of a cooldown for a single target spell, even if it is a no-save insta-kill.

I'd honestly rather it cost an obscene amount of SP. Perhaps 100? 200?

This is good ... as this represents a CHOICE. Cast multiple times and dump SP? Choice with a cost.

Cooldowns don't. They lock in behavioral scripts.

[Zachski]

No. That's an old strategy. And it's lame. Seriously you've not run epics and seen this?

What, you thought I was talking about the perch strategy?

If you're still relying on Wall of Fire after this update, you're doing it wrong.

[Aeolwind]

You left out an important one.....any changes to blade barrier (cool downs, damage)?

With all the chaos in this thread, I don't think they want that cat out of the bag yet to be honest. If they mess with it too hard, it might be hard to find healers for a while.

[voodoogroves]

What, you thought I was talking about the perch strategy?

If you're still relying on Wall of Fire after this update, you're doing it wrong.

Wall of fire is still good damage over time and low risk. Unless the AI changes, that's going to remain solid.

[Zachski]

Wall of fire is still good damage over time and low risk. Unless the AI changes, that's going to remain solid.

So the toy is NOT broken then. Huh.

All the same, more spells are becoming more viable, so maybe while your wizard is perched, you could start firing some rays into the fray :P

[maddmatt70]

With the SP reductions is the intent to see casters casting more AP/item boosted, non-metamagic'd DPS spells? A small drop in SP cost for the spell but a large SP-tax for metamagic is pretty significant.

Focus on Contagion and similar spells is probably misdirected; few targets have the HP for long-term stat damage to matter versus just beating them down - and the ones that have the HP likely have immunity to the stat damage.

Will shout and greater shout have CL-based, uncapped damage? If not, that's not really much bard love as they won't hit the DCs to matter and the damage won't scale with caster level. I'm curious how many bards actually prep shout/greater.

With rays getting free enlarges, will that also apply to AM / PM SLAs? Searing Light (spell and capstone)?

I think every spell in DDO got changed or close to all spells anyway.

Greater shout nobody really preps, but with faster casting times and less spell point cost you could probably keep spamming the spell on low fort save targets over and over to keep them immobilized which has its uses. The damage portion might also have been increased.

[Alanim]

Perhaps maximize could just be = to base cost? and empower being = to 50% of base cost? That'd help with the issues, hopefully but might be slightly hard to implement since you'll need to re-work things affecting those meta-magics to be % based.

[voodoogroves]

So the toy is NOT broken then. Huh.

All the same, more spells are becoming more viable, so maybe while your wizard is perched, you could start firing some rays into the fray :P

You're confusing me with someone who thinks wall of fire didn't need a change. It did. It still may. My wizard runs with 15-20 spells he uses frequently, not a 4-spell pony as some seem to be complaining about.

I just think the reflex save is LAME. I'm not saying its out of balance, LAME. It could make godzilla noises and play Chuck Norris videos and the Worlds Most Interesting Man quotes and the reflex save I still would find LAME.

LAME.

[jortann]

hmmm :D

[Zachski]

Perhaps maximize could just be = to base cost? and empower being = to 50% of base cost? That'd help with the issues, hopefully but might be slightly hard to implement since you'll need to re-work things affecting those meta-magics to be % based.

I don't honestly see any evidence that those metamagics will become % based.

If it does happen, though, then I quite imagine that Arcanes will actually be quite OP.

[voodoogroves]

I think every spell in DDO got changed or close to all spells anyway.

Greater shout nobody really preps, but with faster casting times and less spell point cost you could probably keep spamming the spell on low fort save targets over and over to keep them immobilized which has its uses. The damage portion might also have been increased.

Danger is if you have maximize on for healing; maximize will be far more SP than greater shout unless the metamagics are also updated, then you're just tossing SP.


Or they could let us tag metamagics to spells instead of toggles / stances....

[Kaldais]

I don't honestly see any evidence that those metamagics will become % based.

If it does happen, though, then I quite imagine that Arcanes will actually be quite OP.

Actually Metas were % based before the first meta pass way before DDOU.

[Alanim]

I don't honestly see any evidence that those metamagics will become % based.

If it does happen, though, then I quite imagine that Arcanes will actually be quite OP.

it'd be alot easier to balance spells though... having a higher cost spell = higher cost meta-magics, but I do see what you mean, they could spam tons of low level spells for cheap...

[Cyr]

and some Bard love...

Shout: Cost reduced to 6 SP, uses faster casting animation. Change shared with wizards/sorcerers.

Great Shout: Cost reduced to 15 SP, uses faster cast animation. Change shared with wizards/sorcerers.

I love my bard. I will not use these spells still.
The dynamic of what is worth using a metamagic on and what is not still kills most of these spells that you guys are monkeying with until you can hotkey the full spell with your choice of meta's this is just not going to change.

[fiera]

So basically, instead of being masters of AoE. Casters have been relegated to Arcane Archers. Range single target DPS. WoW! <- hint,hint

Not quite...as an arcane archer i do not turn off precise shot unless it will hurt me...Arcane Archers are not single target dps, they are multi target dps...almost though except the rays I should hope will do more then the 500 an AA gets on a crit, you know saying you were using a master worked short bow and only had 8 str.

[Zachski]

Actually Metas were % based before the first meta pass way before DDOU.

I know that, I just don't see any evidence that they will return to this, especially since Heighten is being kept the same as always.

[Velluminous]

Well, guess this means we'll see a bunch of wizards getting TRed into something else.

Main thing that annoys me is that I'll have to respec. Take a different metamagic feat too, since the only thing I ever used extend on was WoF and Haste. Guess this gives me a chance to try archmage. Ah well.

[Darkrok]

On my palemaster I can already clean portals in shroud using necrotic blast only (not that I am relying this, I just sometimes do this for fun). Since shroud is almost always run on normal, those mobs have pathetic hp, aoe nukes will wipe them easily and reliably I think.

I didn't want to build a toon that relied on spell pen on a first life 18/2 wiz-rog so I built him as a force-based evoker AM with conjuration secondary school. I've not run many shrouds on him yet but I didn't have much problems dropping a couple webs before the portal spawned, then alternating chain missiles, arcane blast, magic missile, arcane bolt, repeat. Obviously that would be more problematic on Hard/Elite but on normal I'm pretty sure I could solo-cast it the way things currently stand. With some of the other changes going in (slightly higher force damage, the ability to take some affordable ice enhancements, etc) I can probably do it even easier than now. Is Wail easier as it stands now? Sure it is. But it's not the only way to do it and people with alternative builds have been doing it other ways for awhile now.

[Requiro]

Well, guess this means we'll see a bunch of wizards getting TRed into something else.

Not really...

[Hafeal]

http://rlv.zcache.com/oh_****_the_sky_is_falling_card-p137021172328032215qi0i_400.jpg

[Zachski]

http://rlv.zcache.com/oh_****_the_sky_is_falling_card-p137021172328032215qi0i_400.jpg

Wow, the censor ruined your picture posting XD

[Calebro]

http://tinyurl.com/4t4svgs

fixed

[xPhoxhoundx]

I've decided to test this out in real-life.

I ran into the hallway wall 100 times now, and not once did I think I took less damage than normal (each subsequent wall-run felt just as painful as the previous). So either I didn't roll a 20 any of the 100 times (if the wall's DC is that high), or whoever thought up the idea of giving WoF a reflex save needs to re-reflect on this.

/win

[D'rin]

I wonder if these changes are also affecting spell like abilities like monk burning hands(although should not change that much) and arcane archer arrows like melfs and terror arrows.

[Zachski]

/win

No, not really.

Have you ever heard of "Jack be nimble, Jack be quick, Jack jumped over the candlestick"?

Protip: The center of a flame is the coolest. A reflex save would consist of jumping through that coolest part.

[Hafeal]

Wow, the censor ruined your picture posting XD

LOL. I was srushing to post it. Looks like it got fixed tho! Where is Memnir when you need him!?! :D Ah, never mind Calebro to the rescue ...

[Seikojin]

speculating only:
I think bb will get changed like most AOE DOT spells. Mainly cooldown time getting affected.

[WangoFett]

Is there some formula for the spell point cost of a spell (e.g. cost = X base for spells of this level + Y if AOE + Z if DOT)?

[xxScoobyDooxx]

Is there some formula for the spell point cost of a spell (e.g. cost = X base for spells of this level + Y if AOE + Z if DOT)?

great question +1 to you.

[Scraap]

The only real objection I've got thusfar without seeing a bit more in action is the extend bit.

Pre-u9, you could diversify a bit in terms of trading raw, immediate damage for patience via using the extend meta and picking up something else instead of empower without a major loss in performance over time, since most cases maximize+empower+extend was enough overdamage that effectively, x2 damage + x2 duration made up for the loss of the .5 boost in most cases where mobs didn't spam insane amounts of self-healing, provided you weren't of the mentality that things must die the second you look at them and anything less is gimped.

Removing extend as a possibility for damage over time spells removes that point of flexibility, and reinforces that mentality.

[FastTaco]

Firewall was useful, other spells should be balanced to be just as useful... You should leave the useful spell alone and buff other spells to be just as useful.

I fear we have just one less useful spell after this while the useless spells are still useless.

[Calebro]

Firewall was useful, other spells should be balanced to be just as useful... You should leave the useful spell alone and buff other spells to be just as useful.

I fear we have just one less useful spell after this while the useless spells are still useless.

That is the exact wrong way to handle balance issues. Handling balance issues that way is what creates power creep. Power creep is what causes things like this to be needed in the first place.
Nerfing things, while distasteful to many, is a much better course of action in the long run.

[mournbladereigns]

Is there some formula for the spell point cost of a spell (e.g. cost = X base for spells of this level + Y if AOE + Z if DOT)?

Indeed. Showing us the cost formulas you designed based on the spells effect, cause surely you designed a formula for it.

Base spell level = x
Range
Duration
Effect
Save for reduced effect/negates
damage/effect capped
verbal/somatic/material components, Expensive components?
Casting time
Cool down?

On the subject of formulas. I think fixing the DoT's as non extendable is poor choice. Duration should be based on base level of spell, say 2secs +(2/spell level secs base), plus 2 seconds per 2 caster levels, max of 10secs , extendable to twice that level, plus modifier for caster level, with caps. (yes Wall of Fire is ony 4th lvl, cap it's max caster level bonus to 10 or whatevers- which can be exceeded by savants.)

That way extend is still useful. Also scale back the free enlarge on ray spells to say 50%, and have enlarge only increase range of ray spells./area of effects 50%/other 100%.

Finally, switch the metas to be a percentage modifier of base sp cost from the above derived formulas. So Empower is +50(40 for emp healing) % to cost, Max +100% to cost. Heighten is +10% per level heightened, Extend+100%, Enlarge +50%. Quicken: +50% And have meta reduction feats/items reduce cost by 5% per current sp reduction. That would work well and keep everything useful. oh and like +3% for Eschew Materials.

Oh yeah, spell sets for preset spell metas, seriously

[Sebastrd]

Wall of Fire is not overpowered. All of the other damage spells are underpowered.

An arcane caster needs to keep up with melee DPS. Mobs hit points are severely inflated to keep up with melee DPS, but spells were never enhanced to maintain the balance.

As it stands, damage over time and save or die are the only effective ways for casters to deal with mobs and their high hit points. A typical caster's life cycle runs greataxe->Wall of Fire->save or die. By reducing the effectiveness of Wall of Fire you've simply extended the period in which a caster's best DPS is a greataxe.

-IMHO

[Calebro]

Wall of Fire is not overpowered. All of the other damage spells are underpowered.

An arcane caster needs to keep up with melee DPS. Mobs hit points are severely inflated to keep up with melee DPS, but spells were never enhanced to maintain the balance.

As it stands, damage over time and save or die are the only effective ways for casters to deal with mobs and their high hit points. A typical caster's life cycle runs greataxe->Wall of Fire->save or die. By reducing the effectiveness of Wall of Fire you've simply extended the period in which a caster's best DPS is a greataxe.

-IMHO

That's the most ridiculous thing I've seen in this thread yet.
I'm not saying the rest of the spells are perfect, but Wall of Fire is most certainly overpowered.
And the reason that a typical caster's life cycle goes that way is because they can't afford to spend mana on spells early in their career, hence the sp reduction of costs on instantaneous damaging spells. That, and there aren't enough decently damaging spells, hence the improvement to instantaneously damaging spells.
Instead of extending the period in which a caster will use a greataxe, this creates a situation where even a level 1 wiz doesn't have to use one if he doesn't want to.
It doesn't extent the period in which a caster will use a greataxe unless the caster wants it to. In point of fact, it removes it or reduces it unless the caster chooses otherwise.

This will certainly change the way that casters are played. Of that there is no doubt. But I expect the change to be a good one, and not the DOOooo0000MMmmmMMM portrayed on the forums.

[yodino]

So, Turbine's spell pass in a nutshell is this: Arcanes have been relegated to Glorified AA's?

[fat_man1691]

http://my.ddo.com/fat_man1691/2011/03/22/the-coming-overhaul-of-spells/
There is my opinion, put where it is for my convenience.

[Shaz]

Wow, going to throw my comment on this gigantic heap of comments no one will ever read. But this is a big change so I feel i must comment.

1. Hurray for fire wall nerf! I've always felt it was a bit cheap - doesn't require much thought or skill for the amount of power it deals out. :-/ I actually like thought and skill.

2. Bigger hurray for other spell buffs! I love the positive (non-sp changes) to melfs, fear, sleep, ect. I've always felt that casters shouldn't be one-stop-shops, except maybe for sorcerers. I don't think clerics need any love though, thats kind of wierd, but whatever its cool. I'd rather lighting bolt got a "chain lighting" possibility effect instead (25% chance to jump to another target loop-style), but i guess double damage is okay. And Melfs... wow does it seem powerful now.

3. The problem with changing spell point costs is that you've eliminated a very simple rule that has been in place forever; this will make it harder for newbs to figure out what is going on. In the previous system, noobs didn't have to think about how much a fireball would cost them, they just think "oh its lvl 3, that means 15 sp". now they have to go into their spellbooks and look. Yeah okay this probably isn't a big deal at all. :(

4. The spell point regen... at first I was like "NOOOO PLZ DONT MAKE WOW!!!" and then I read further, and I was like, "oh yeah, this is awesome!" Very cool guys. :) So I take it it will work like unconscious regen and put a buff icon up and stuff? So newbs will understand it as well as veterans. I'd recommend putting some text in the "magical training" feat as well. Also, this will make pure bards cry harder, but I don't mind, I always roll a level of sorc into my bards anyways. :rolleyes:

All in all I must say I am pleasantly surprised. Normally I complain at length as this game is changed (the removal of the danger of stat damage had me very irate), and I expected to do this again going into this post, but I must say I approve of these changes. All of them! Which has got to be a first for me. I'm glad to see you guys are still thinking hard over there. ;) Still... go get some Druids in! :D

[Requiro]

http://my.ddo.com/fat_man1691/2011/03/22/the-coming-overhaul-of-spells/
There is my opinion, put where it is for my convenience.

I stopped reading after you said: This is overall nerf for caster :)

Totally untruth :)

[Requiro]

(...)
3. The problem with changing spell point costs is that you've eliminated a very simple rule that has been in place forever; this will make it harder for newbs to figure out what is going on. In the previous system, noobs didn't have to think about how much a fireball would cost them, they just think "oh its lvl 3, that means 15 sp". now they have to go into their spellbooks and look. Yeah okay this probably isn't a big deal at all. :(
(...)

Believe me: newbs don't know now what is the cost of Fireball :) They sometimes don't know how to cast a spell... This change nothing for newbs :) They just like to cast, and then are angry why SP is gone :(

BTW: Are Wizards not supposed to be "intelligent? Int: 18 is meaning something, isn't it? :) I’m sure that they find better solution to be efficient :)

[Voldomar]

I honestly rarely cast Polar Ray on my wizard (s). I use, in most cases, the following spells with regularity (non-buffs).

Ray of Enfeeblement, Waves of Exhaustion (used to stat-drain targets into auto-crit)
Energy Drain (typical de-buff before applying a CC)
Flesh to Stone
Wall of Fire - general trash
Ice Storm - trash, esp. epic fire resistance/immune trash (efreeti, fire reavers in eADQ for instance)
Finger of Death - late game (vale, etc) quest farming
Wail of the Banshee - late game quest farming trash killer (shroud, vale, IQ, hound)
Dancing Sphere - multi-target but stationary; better save/break profile than mass hold
Otto's Irresistible - single target, close range, no save
Hypnotism - trash control, different save / break profile than mass hold
Mass Hold Monster - immediate hold, though can break quickly
Mass Charm Monster - fast charm but shorter duration
Symbol of Persuasion - stationary charm; long lasting
Cloudkill (debuff and damage)

This spans epic and non-epic content. Note that 3 of those spells do damage (though 1 not so much). The rest of them set up other damage possibilities. I do have Cone of Cold, Polar Ray, Disintegrate, Frost Lance and some sort of blasting (either Archmage blases or Pale Master blasts) but in general I control FIRST. I enjoy it. I also keep a few other clouds around, Sunburst, etc. Part of the joy is using the right tool for the job. Polar ray is really only for SP dumping on bosses, SoS fire room, etc.




Like I've been saying, I'm not declaring doom and gloom, simply pointing out the risks of changing multiple things at once.



What's the CC option with these changes? It isn't hit a debuff first, because this game is pretty fast-paced and you are going to struggle hitting one group with a debuff before it, for instance, goes through your Symbol of Persuasion. How difficult will it be to tag a group with crushing despair and hit the same ones with Mass Hold, or will they have jiggered around so the lame targeting you can do fails to get the same ones? Am I going to kite a bunch of guys around and try to debuff them while Wail is on timer? No, I'm not going to bother. Those debuff spells aren't useful, they take time. It's better to ignore them, prep the direct damage and work on pushing your save DCs into the mid 40s ... or simply become a direct damage caster.


The issue isn't mathematical changes, it's the action-efficiencies and cost in time to use each ability. If it becomes faster, easier and more efficient to simply blast things THEN THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE WILL DO.

More spells may look useful on paper, but in reality we're just going to gravitate to a single small list and my fear is the answer is going to be "DPS with magic" in nearly all cases.



In that event, then maybe we just made a whole host of spells more useful. Fire ball, acid blast, acid arrow, frost lance. Sure, maybe they are all useful. Ultimately though, they all do the exact same thing ... put damage on a target with a different set of math and animations.



I have no idea what changes in this proposal will make it to Lamia and from there what will actually make it live. I hope the kinds of options I have for control now (single vs. multi-target, instant-vs-ward, long-term hold vs. shorter term, etc.) are still USABLE in a practical sense. Not "can you prep them and cast them" - because you can do that with Power Word Kill today ... but it is impractical.



+1
I'd like to see these concerns addressed



Edit:

The dynamic of what is worth using a metamagic on and what is not still kills most of these spells that you guys are monkeying with until you can hotkey the full spell with your choice of meta's this is just not going to change.

This one too

[Elucidus]

So wait, reducing wall of fire's OP reducing arcanes to AAs? I think these are all great changes for one it addresses the fact that single target spells target only one, so they should cost less, it addresses the instant damage spells even AOE being used less than DoT, specifically firewall. And sorry, but it makes sense to make a reflex save to jump through a wall of fire with some chance of success, heck they can jump through a wall of blades each and every time, at least they can still stand there like dolts and take full damage.

The fact that so many people require wall of fire in a caster just shows that it is OP. At least now other builds will be viable. I approve of all of the changes I have read.

Also another comment someone made about BB, I am sure the cost will be changed (I believe all spells will have a cost change) perhaps even the cooldown, though that wouldn't really bother me much either, but I don't expect too much to change as that isn't truly damage over Time. I mean they can stand in it and only get hit once, though I would like to be able to cast it somewhere else though, like in PnP.

I understand people have grown used to things and have adapted a play style to suit it, but its time for a change. Believe me I get a lot of joy out of casting multiple damage spells at people, rather than mindlessly casting firewall.

"Look ma, I am flying through the walls of fire and these idiots are chasing me...only to die." Yeah that's a lot of fun.

Now if we can assign metamagic to specific spells in quickslots, that would be awesome.

[HOLYCRAPLUCIFER]

I truly hate what turbine is doing in the pen and paper for one WoF never had a reflex save and i get it you want us to break our boundries in spell choosing but still *** this nerf is seriously changing casters and well even tho the curve was tough it insures that casters arent just screwing around.... all this caster nerfing is a joke why not go after the way over powered arcane rangers instead of the casters! i mean seriously you guys are making me want to quit cause you are shooting your self in the foot

[Requiro]

I truly hate what turbine is doing in the pen and paper for one WoF never had a reflex save and i get it you want us to break our boundries in spell choosing but still *** this nerf is seriously changing casters and well even tho the curve was tough it insures that casters arent just screwing around.... all this caster nerfing is a joke why not go after the way over powered arcane rangers instead of the casters! i mean seriously you guys are making me want to quit cause you are shooting your self in the foot

One less "easy button"(*) in the game = more balance overall :)

(*) - "easy button" = wall of fire right now

[DasLurch]

I keep having guildies try to talk me off the "ledge" aboutt hese changes. I guess my real questions are the following...

1. Will the boost to single blast damage spells outweigh the loss to persistant AOE damage spells? The way I see this working, the change costs the caster far more mana. 2-3 fireballs is FAR more SP than 1 firewall that gets cast now. Lowwering the base cost of these spells is nice, but how many casters run around throwing damage spells now that are NOT empowered and maximized? Those meta's will end up costing the caster far more SP than is the norm now because they are casting spells more often.

2. Will Sorcerers, Favored Souls, and Bards get a complete and FREE spell reset? If I have to pay to reset my spells, I just won't play these classes anymore until I get a heart in a chest. I'm not paying to make them viable if I'm not the one that broke them.

3. It seems to me that casters are getting forced into a new playstyle. While I can live with this, I'm not entirely thrilled until I understand what it all means. Holds will work better for wizards, but not for Sorcs? Certain elemental spells will be awesome for soome Sorcs, but not for Wizzie's? We casters now NEED to debuff in order to make spells land? I'm hoping that maybe I'm reading more into this than is there, or maybe that when more information comes out it will clarify things in a more solid and easy to understand way. 3 posts about something this big is just not enough feedback to keep many of us from screaming DOOOOM! Really someone needs to just put it all out there or atleast say WHEN more is coming. Saying more will be revealed soon is just plain old stupid and mean.

[Elucidus]

I do have to agree that sorcerers, bards, and favored souls should get one free exchange of spells.

[Wraithkin]

pen and paper

Pen and paper used spell slots, not spell points. Both friendly units and hostile units take damage while running through both instant and persistent AoE effects. What you are used to using is not pen and paper. Casters have been overpowered for far too long. I'm sure good casters will adapt and bad casters will die. Hopefully this finally eliminates an arcane being able to solo epic quests.

[BitkaCK2]

So after reading 600+ posts I learned a new spell:

Wall of Posts - 10d10 psi dmg/page (wis. save negates 1/2, int save negates 1/2) - failed saves also incite an impending sense of DOOOOOooooooooMMMM resulting in knee-jerk rage posting coupled with a paralysis of the ability to handle change.

Thankfully I made my saving throws.

However:
a) Once I got my poor l'il sorc alt to level 8 I was so excited turn learn how to use WoF (aka proper targeting and jumping like a 'jackrabbit on crack'*). Then I read this and shelved her until change happens.
b) Was very glad I picked up a heart of wood at 50% off and banked it.
c) Had an inexplicable desire to listen to Bob Marley's Burnin' and Looting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za01QWLXisQ).

TTFN,
bitkaCK2

*"Jackrabbit on crack" phrase courtesy of Aspenor's Sorceror's Hanbook (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175911) thread.

[voodoogroves]

I do have to agree that sorcerers, bards, and favored souls should get one free exchange of spells.

What about wizards who LR'd at some point and don't get spells as they level and only get the obscure ones they can find on scrolls?

[Requiro]

Pen and paper used spell slots, not spell points. Both friendly units and hostile units take damage while running through both instant and persistent AoE effects. What you are used to using is not pen and paper. Casters have been overpowered for far too long. I'm sure good casters will adapt and bad casters will die. Hopefully this finally eliminates an arcane being able to solo epic quests.

I miss spell slots ... :(

That was the worst part of the DDO, when I start playing :(

....


/Offtop on

I wonder what happens if they made this when they design DDO:
- Sorc, FvS get Spell Points
- Wizards, Cleric get Spell Slot
- Bards, Rangers and Paladin get mix (some Spell Points and Spell Slot)

- And the hardcore to made this balance :D

:rolleyes:
.....
:o
...
:cool:

Ehh... Nvm... :(

/offtop off

To OP: Caster with that changes will be almost the same like before :) And we will quick adapts for new power ;) And do solo again :)

[knightgf]

Here are some sample changes to the divine side of things…

Contagion: Cost reduced to 8 SP. Diseases provided by this spell that do ability damage now do it at a rate of X stat damage every 30 seconds instead of 60 seconds. Slimy Doom now does 6d6 acid damage every 6 seconds. As before two saves apply, one against damage, if successful save again to end the effect.



One thing that I MUST, MUST emphasize...if you are going to be changing contagion, you better enable heighten to work for this spell, otherwise nobody will use it even with the SP reduction. That was the reason I never used it in the first place: If you can't heighten a spell with a save, it definitely won't be any good at end-game, especially if it is fortitude.

Oh, and I do have one more question now that we are talking about spells and since update 9 is coming soon(TM):

Will certain casters be able to modify a quarterstaff using crafting so that they can store casts of a spell inside it?

[PopeJual]

Pen and paper used spell slots, not spell points. Both friendly units and hostile units take damage while running through both instant and persistent AoE effects. What you are used to using is not pen and paper. Casters have been overpowered for far too long. I'm sure good casters will adapt and bad casters will die. Hopefully this finally eliminates an arcane being able to solo epic quests.

When Rangers, Clerics and FvS can solo epic quests, why should Arcane casters not be able to solo epic quests?

[bobbryan2]

When Rangers, Clerics and FvS can solo epic quests, why should Arcane casters not be able to solo epic quests?

And what's with the preoccupation that epic quests 'must' have full parties. That was one of the lamest parts of sooo many hp. Sure you 'could' do it with just a melee and cleric... but it took soooo long.

[Seventh]

I keep having guildies try to talk me off the "ledge" aboutt hese changes. I guess my real questions are the following...

1. Will the boost to single blast damage spells outweigh the loss to persistant AOE damage spells? The way I see this working, the change costs the caster far more mana. 2-3 fireballs is FAR more SP than 1 firewall that gets cast now. Lowwering the base cost of these spells is nice, but how many casters run around throwing damage spells now that are NOT empowered and maximized? Those meta's will end up costing the caster far more SP than is the norm now because they are casting spells more often.

2. Will Sorcerers, Favored Souls, and Bards get a complete and FREE spell reset? If I have to pay to reset my spells, I just won't play these classes anymore until I get a heart in a chest. I'm not paying to make them viable if I'm not the one that broke them.

3. It seems to me that casters are getting forced into a new playstyle. While I can live with this, I'm not entirely thrilled until I understand what it all means. Holds will work better for wizards, but not for Sorcs? Certain elemental spells will be awesome for soome Sorcs, but not for Wizzie's? We casters now NEED to debuff in order to make spells land? I'm hoping that maybe I'm reading more into this than is there, or maybe that when more information comes out it will clarify things in a more solid and easy to understand way. 3 posts about something this big is just not enough feedback to keep many of us from screaming DOOOOM! Really someone needs to just put it all out there or atleast say WHEN more is coming. Saying more will be revealed soon is just plain old stupid and mean.

1) As it stands, yes on the boost overcoming the loss on DoT's- for Savants (and by a lot) thanks to damage increases. I don't really know about wizards, but I imagine they don't get off as well spell damage wise. This might be on purpose if Turbine is trying to emphasize the whole "Wizzies are better at CC than damage and Vice Versa with Sorcs" thing, but I can't really speculate on the intents of the devs.
As for metas, I recall Eladrin mentioning that they were unhappy with how metas scaled and that they were going to work on it- but who knows when that's going to happen.

2) I doubt it but it's possible- at the very least, peeps on the llama server are getting hearts to test the changes, but that has no real bearing on whether or not the live servers will see free spell swaps.

3) This update completely changes how casters work and we're not even privy to all the changes yet. We won't really know just how class roles will be redefined until we get to test all this out, but it seems that Sorcs will be blasters with spectacular burst DPS and some CC on the side, and wizards will be primarily CC/instakills depending on how you spec, although with respectable if not super impressive burst DPS available. Wizzies should not need to debuff to get their specialty spells off (Enchantment Archmages will get their holds off fine; same with Pale Masters and their instakills, for example) but will most likely want to do so for spells they're not super specced for; sorcs will need to debuff for sure (With the exception of the SLA hold abilities some Savant lines get). Debuffs in general will be more useful (Circle of Death will simultaneously be a useful AoE instakill and an AoE Enervate, other debuffs will grant save penalties on successful enemy saves to make catching them with the second cast easier). The bread and butter of sorcs will be elemental and force/untyped spells; we only have the details on a few spells, but it seems melfs and chain lightning will be big and Polar Ray will be king. Again, this is all speculation at this point.

[Feithlin]

The changes are made so it's easier for wizards at lower levels? I hope this is a joke. The main reason ppl use a lot firewall while leveling is because it was a very efficient spell for its sp cost. Reducing the sp cost of single target damaging spells won't be enough. Low and middle level questing on a new player wizard will be a lot more difficult than before. It will probably not be an issue for older players, they will just find new ways to do things, but certainly not for newbies.
From what I see, the best course seems enchantment now.

As an afterthought, I think I spoke too quickly. The nerf isn't that big at mid levels. 35 sp instead of 25 sp means you will need a bit more attention when using it, but doesn't make it useless. The duration was 10 sec. + 1 sec. / caster level. So the basic version would last longer for lower levels. The basic strategy will still work if the wiz keeps a look at his sp pool. This won't be easier for newer players, but will be a good learning.
Overall, I'm pleased to see new strategies coming up. This is always good, even if human nature hates change (and this, even if he gets bored of things not changing :)).
I suppose we will need to test it to get a clearer idea of all the implications.

[Auran82]

1. Will the boost to single blast damage spells outweigh the loss to persistant AOE damage spells? The way I see this working, the change costs the caster far more mana. 2-3 fireballs is FAR more SP than 1 firewall that gets cast now. Lowwering the base cost of these spells is nice, but how many casters run around throwing damage spells now that are NOT empowered and maximized? Those meta's will end up costing the caster far more SP than is the norm now because they are casting spells more often.

I suspect that the maxamise and empower costs may be left as is, because it means that oneshot damage spells are at their most efficient (damage per mana wise) without them applied. This means that the player is left to make a choice depending on the situation whether it is worth losing some of that efficiency for a boost to their DPS.

Heighten is another story though, as it makes no sense to use a heightened fireball over a DBF, not sure what will happen there, but I assume it will be something like 2sp per level heightened and the enhancements to reduce the cost will possibly be removed (or allowed to stay and essentially make heighten free)

Extend by the looks of it is being made to basically only work on buffs which I am still on the fence about.

In some ways it will be more fun to be able to choose between Max+emp+DBF for a single big hit or rotating between a couple of non-metamagic improved damage spells for more damage, the same amount of mana, but taking a couple of seconds longer to do.

Hell, having a situation where you actually consider turning off metamagics would be nice, I know there are very few situations since the change to metamagic costs I have actually turned them off on my sorc.

[voodoogroves]

DBF isn't stopped by Globes (or related) Of Invulnerability.


The trick to metamagic is now, many people leave a core set on all the time. That's awesome.


Having more times when you want it on or off is nifty in theory, but only if in practice they also change the metamagic activation animation and action-time. You can't make changes mid-fight easily.

[Theolin]

I do not understand why there are so many folks who think mefl's is going to be soooo great

* Melf’s Acid Arrow (down to 6 SP – Damage updated to 2d4 + 1 per caster level, duration locked to 12 seconds

so at level 20 thats ... umm 22-28 damage per sec on 1 target + metas .... um well if a melee is beating on it it WILL be DEAD in 1-2 seconds ... because they are doing at least 200 DPS if there any good at lvl 20 and I'm doing ...wait lets calculate a max ... um +50% for enhancements, +100 max + 50% empower + 75% acid clickie ... (22-28)*(0.5+1+0.5+0.75)=(22-28)*2.75=60-77 with it ... umm yea thats worthwhile yes thats per second but how many mobs last more than 2 seconds if a melee is beating on it as well???? please tell me. oh and if I happen to crit ... well thats 3x more if I have that maxed ...

ok ok .. lets do level 6 melee doing lets see if he has charged gauntlets(not hard to get) + a holy pure goodx ~ 100 dps give or take ... wizard if he has max/empower/clickie/enhancement(you wont at level 5 but lets pretend)... 2.75*(7-13)= 22-39DPS (hint hint ... this is pathetic) ... oh wait hmm my wizard does more with an weapon & those charged gauntlets ... which am I going to use ... tough choice there ... um I know I want to do less damage yea thats it

So to me with simple numbers .. I get wizard with sword is better than wizard with melfs.

now you might say that a "new" person lets choose lvl 6 won't have all that stuff so that's not fair so lets just compare a wiz with 2H weapon with the spell no metas .. just casting 25% enhancement
melfs=10-18 dps
weapon 2-12 +( 10 str & bulls a +2 weapon & a 1d6 extra damage) = 7-22/per swing which at level 6 is about 1.1-1.2 swings per second
not to far off but even so which one makes more sense to use?

now lets do a dungeon say butchers path ~ 200 enemies & 2 shrines
thats about 67 per shrine
so 67*6sps = 603 SPs ... um wait a lvl 6 wizard has how many ... oops ran out meanwhile if I was swinging a weapon .. well I don't run out

[Artagon]

I do not understand why there are so many folks who think mefl's is going to be soooo great

* Melf’s Acid Arrow (down to 6 SP – Damage updated to 2d4 + 1 per caster level, duration locked to 12 seconds

so at level 20 thats ... umm 22-28 damage per sec on 1 target + metas .... um well if a melee is beating on it it WILL be DEAD in 1-2 seconds ... because they are doing at least 200 DPS if there any good at lvl 20 and I'm doing ...wait lets calculate a max ... um +50% for enhancements, +100 max + 50% empower + 75% acid clickie ... (22-28)*(0.5+1+0.5+0.75)=(22-28)*2.75=60-77 with it ... umm yea thats worthwhile yes thats per second but how many mobs last more than 2 seconds if a melee is beating on it as well???? please tell me. oh and if I happen to crit ... well thats 3x more if I have that maxed ...

ok ok .. lets do level 6 melee doing lets see if he has charged gauntlets(not hard to get) + a holy pure goodx ~ 100 dps give or take ... wizard if he has max/empower/clickie/enhancement(you wont at level 5 but lets pretend)... 2.75*(7-13)= 22-39DPS (hint hint ... this is pathetic) ... oh wait hmm my wizard does more with an weapon & those charged gauntlets ... which am I going to use ... tough choice there ... um I know I want to do less damage yea thats it

So to me with simple numbers .. I get wizard with sword is better than wizard with melfs.

now you might say that a "new" person lets choose lvl 6 won't have all that stuff so that's not fair so lets just compare a wiz with 2H weapon with the spell no metas .. just casting 25% enhancement
melfs=10-18 dps
weapon 2-12 +( 10 str & bulls a +2 weapon & a 1d6 extra damage) = 7-22/per swing which at level 6 is about 1.1-1.2 swings per second
not to far off but even so which one makes more sense to use?

now lets do a dungeon say butchers path ~ 200 enemies & 2 shrines
thats about 67 per shrine
so 67*6sps = 603 SPs ... um wait a lvl 6 wizard has how many ... oops ran out meanwhile if I was swinging a weapon .. well I don't run out

It's effectively a 6 mana single target firewall... that you can get at lvl 3-4... you don't get it? how about the fact that you can stack it with a firewall or cloudkill to double up that dmg? Gosh, I don't know WHY people are excited about melfs being changed to reflect the reality of mob hp!

[parvo]

Torc,
Is anything being done about faulty AoE spell targetting? What I'm talking about is spells like sleep and slow. They have an area affect that centers around where a mob was when you start the cast. By the time the spell lands, often times the mobs have moved completely out of the area. (It's always seemed odd to me that somehow hypno works perfectly fine though, landing where the target is, so maybe it's an easy fix.) I think Fireball is the same way as sleep and slow. Tends to miss a lot like the old missile weapons did. Target is faster than the missile speed.

Granted, I haven't used sleep or slow in many a moon, but the described issue is why.

[Feithlin]

I do not understand why there are so many folks who think mefl's is going to be soooo great


2d4 + 1/caster level = 25 average / sec. for 12 sec.
25 x (1 + 0.5 empower + 1.0 maximize) x (1.0 + 0.5 potency + 0.5 enhancements) = 125 / sec.
or (0.75 potency) 140 with clicky/pot.
18% crit for x3 adds 45 on average (I'm only using x2 because I add it to average normal damage) or 50 with clicky/pot.
Total: 170 or 190 / sec., 2,040 or 2,280 over 12 sec.

Sorry, but this is huge for only 6 sp base (granted, it's 46 sp with empower/maximize), as you just need to drop it then hide/run away. Of course, if you drop it on a mob who will die in 2 sec., this is just a bad use of the spell: why cast anything? Haste and keep your sp.
Furthermore, Melph's Arrow has no save, no SR check. This is a very good option for archers and so on. A better option than WoF now.

You can use it the economic way too. Without metas, average damage is 50 + 18 from crits = 68 x 12 sec. = 816 damage for 6 sp. Not bad, really. Sure, many SLA will be better, but the main point of Melph's Arrow is that you can hide/run while waiting for it to do its work.

[fiera]

Wall of Fire is not overpowered. All of the other damage spells are underpowered.

An arcane caster needs to keep up with melee DPS. Mobs hit points are severely inflated to keep up with melee DPS, but spells were never enhanced to maintain the balance.

As it stands, damage over time and save or die are the only effective ways for casters to deal with mobs and their high hit points. A typical caster's life cycle runs greataxe->Wall of Fire->save or die. By reducing the effectiveness of Wall of Fire you've simply extended the period in which a caster's best DPS is a greataxe.

-IMHO

I have personally not ever used a greataxe on my caster...and i've been fine...you can solo most low level content with a pocket healer using your wands and spells...(wands for level 1 only) because the shrines are spaces that you should really have enough sp to make it if your doing your job correctly...as for in a party...greataxe no...haste melees makes melees happy melees kill things...you don't take unneeded damage and this also makes the healers happy...so fw is gimped a little bit oh well...since its mostly used for undead anyway..who don't have reflex saves this should be fine. You can still run through delera's in 8 mins with your fw...you just might have to cast a couple extra since its no longer doing double damage. anyway i just thought i'd point out that a greataxe doesn't do more damage then say a scorching ray if your built properly. oh and since this will cost less you can cast it more how about that ...i foresee less greataxe wielding casters who think they are fighters but really just die alot.

[B0ltdrag0n]

2d4 + 1/caster level = 25 average / sec. for 12 sec.
25 x (1 + 0.5 empower + 1.0 maximize) x (1.0 + 0.5 potency + 0.5 enhancements) = 125 / sec.
or (0.75 potency) 140 with clicky/pot.
18% crit for x3 adds 45 on average (I'm only using x2 because I add it to average normal damage) or 50 with clicky/pot.
Total: 170 or 190 / sec., 2,040 or 2,280 over 12 sec.

Sorry, but this is huge for only 6 sp base (granted, it's 46 sp with empower/maximize), as you just need to drop it then hide/run away. Of course, if you drop it on a mob who will die in 2 sec., this is just a bad use of the spell: why cast anything? Haste and keep your sp.
Furthermore, Melph's Arrow has no save, no SR check. This is a very good option for archers and so on. A better option than WoF now.

You can use it the economic way too. Without metas, average damage is 50 + 18 from crits = 68 x 12 sec. = 816 damage for 6 sp. Not bad, really. Sure, many SLA will be better, but the main point of Melph's Arrow is that you can hide/run while waiting for it to do its work.


Slight note to your math. Melf's is an SLA for the class, and I do believe that Eladrin said that metamagics apply free to the class SLA's, just as they do to archmage spells.

[melkor1702]

Pen and paper used spell slots, not spell points. Both friendly units and hostile units take damage while running through both instant and persistent AoE effects. What you are used to using is not pen and paper. Casters have been overpowered for far too long. I'm sure good casters will adapt and bad casters will die. Hopefully this finally eliminates an arcane being able to solo epic quests.

All player classes have been overpowered for a long time (not just casters), it's why we have epic wards, inflated saves, inflated hit points etc on mobs.

[Cheretep]

I like most what they are trying to do here. Firewall nerf is welcome.

What I really don't like is:
-sp cost variations: spells should balance it out by other things (damage,duration,cooldown,saves,animation,etc.)
-making feats like enlarge and extend useless/less usefull (dropping firewall base time to 15s + extendable is way better than making it 30s flat)

I'd think it will be easier and simpler for new players too, when they don't have to memorize what costs 4sp and what costs 7 or 12 or 43. Also memorizing what can be extended and what is not. Heck, I was mortified when I learned Flaming Sphere did not extend, despite the fact that it would still suck.

Nerfing for balance is ok. These 2 things just add to the confusion. Plenty of ways to nerf without making spells more complex.

I'm bit unsure if we really need sp regen. Dev-hours would be better used on bug-hunting. :)

[donfilibuster]

All player classes have been overpowered for a long time (not just casters), it's why we have epic wards, inflated saves, inflated hit points etc on mobs.

Yep, and it was predicted by Velah that the day of the prophecy will came and nerf all that... or something like that.

[Calebro]

(dropping firewall base time to 15s + extendable is way better than making it 30s flat)

I don't understand why people keep saying this at all.

First, it would be useless in the natural unextended form if it were 15 seconds, which means that casters would be forced to take extend. At least they have the option of ignoring extend at the moment. Most take it anyway, but at least the option is there. At 15 seconds base, the option disappears and it becomes mandatory.
Second, unless they dropped the sp cost by 10, having a base 15 second WoF extended to 30 seconds would simply mean that extending it would create the same effect at a higher cost. That's not better, that's worse.

30 seconds flat is much MUCH better than 15 seconds and extendable.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I don't understand why people keep saying this at all.

First, it would be useless in the natural unextended form if it were 15 seconds, which means that casters would be forced to take extend. At least they have the option of ignoring extend at the moment. Most take it anyway, but at least the option is there. At 15 seconds base, the option disappears and it becomes mandatory.
Second, unless they dropped the sp cost by 10, having a base 15 second WoF extended to 30 seconds would simply mean that extending it would create the same effect at a higher cost. That's not better, that's worse.

30 seconds flat is much MUCH better than 15 seconds and extendable.

I'd suggest looking at it objectively rather than subjectively.
At 15 seconds it would still be a very good spell for it's SP cost, it's not like it deals a lot less damage than say a fireball, each tick.

It would actually be better for the game if it was 15/30, or preferably 20/40. Since extend's only purpose is really for haste now. And honestly, I don't think it's worth it any longer.

[Calebro]

I'd suggest looking at it objectively rather than subjectively.
At 15 seconds it would still be a very good spell for it's SP cost, it's not like it deals a lot less damage than say a fireball, each tick.

It would actually be better for the game if it was 15/30, or preferably 20/40. Since extend's only purpose is really for haste now. And honestly, I don't think it's worth it any longer.

It currently doesn't deal much less than say a fireball, but once this goes live it likely will.

I'm not sure what this post is based on but spell damage dice is not changing.

Traditionally in DDO Direct damage or "instant" damage spells use "loaded" dice, where we give you half the value and then roll the second half.

Example: Lightning bolt does a d6 per level, but actually roll 3+1d3 per die. So the average tends to be 5. This prevents you from rolling a ton of 1s and getting a crappy lightning bolt.

Now Dots typically roll true dice: 1d4 will really be a range of 1 - 4.

But anyhow, the base method of how we do spell damage dice isn't changing :D Been that way awhile.
That one thing is going to have a bigger impact on WoF than anything else that has been proposed, but that's the one part that people are ignoring.
Reduce the damage against undead. Reduce the dice to true dice rather than weighted. Add a save for half upon entering the wall. Increase the cost.
And now people want to drop it to a max of 7 tics?
7 tics might not, and in many cases definitely won't, get the job done, which means extend is mandatory.

I still think a flat 30 is better.

[Cheretep]

I am not saying Firewall SHOULD be 15s/30s. I'm just saying 15s/30s is BETTER THAN 30s flat.

I am not experienced enough to say what actual duration should be. Maybe 20s/40s or 1s/lvl or 10s + 1s/2lvls or something else.

The point is metamagics should have reasonable effect. It has duration, so extend should apply. Adjust the base duration so that the spell is not overpowered.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

It currently doesn't deal much less than say a fireball, but once this goes live it likely will.

That one thing is going to have a bigger impact on WoF than anything else that has been proposed, but that's the one part that people are ignoring.
Reduce the damage against undead. Reduce the dice to true dice rather than weighted. Add a save for half upon entering the wall. Increase the cost.
And now people want to drop it to a max of 7 tics?
7 tics might not, and in many cases definitely won't, get the job done, which means extend is mandatory.

I still think a flat 30 is better.

Reduction in dmg vs undead is more than fine. Firewall is already overpowered as hell in its base damage, the fact that it does twice that vs undead is just rediculous.
The true dice change wont affect it much, since most of firewalls damage comes from +20, rather than the dice. It'll drop about 5ish damage base, if even.
The ref save on entering wont change much, it'll be like BB, and they don't save BB that often, and considering you'll just be able to block (or hold them =*1,5 dmg) in the firewalls to avoid the save.

7 ticks is still more than 3 times the damage of a fireball.

[Auran82]

I think the main loss with regard to the undead damage is freaking wraiths and other incorporeal undead which are only slightly bearable because you can stack firewalls around the place and stand in them hoping they happen to zone in within the firewalls area of effect.

[zebidos]

When this goes on the preview server can you please allow sorcs to quickly change spells so we can test it out?

Because if the preview is only up for 2 weeks and we can only change one spell every three days, might be a issue with getting decent feedback on how its all working.


Thanks.

[Calebro]

Reduction in dmg vs undead is more than fine. Firewall is already overpowered as hell in its base damage, the fact that it does twice that vs undead is just rediculous.
The true dice change wont affect it much, since most of firewalls damage comes from +20, rather than the dice. It'll drop about 5ish damage base, if even.
The ref save on entering wont change much, it'll be like BB, and they don't save BB that often, and considering you'll just be able to block (or hold them =*1,5 dmg) in the firewalls to avoid the save.

7 ticks is still more than 3 times the damage of a fireball.

The base damage has always been low. It gets it's power from enhancements, potency, and metas. I think dropping the base by ~4 points is going to make a bigger difference than you're giving credit for.
Not that I'm opposed to these changes at all. I'm happy to see WoF getting a nerf while other spells get a boost. I just find it funny that the one change that will affect WoF more than any other is the one that no one is complaining about.

[Templarion]

Change is good.

Brings some fresh winds here!

[Picker]

So firewall is nerferd ok i can live with that other than using it in ToD i don’t use it much once im in amrath as the mobs are immune to fire. Still sucks that its going to cost more and not a lot we can do about it.

Burning hands/Melf’s Acid Arrow – meh really once im past lvl 6 i never use these spells they don’t do enough damage to make it worthwhile and you need to be in range of melee to cast hands which means your dead as soon as something swings for you. If you cast Melfs it’s a waste of sp as a decent melee will take the HP off quicker than you can cast it.

Scorching ray – my spell of choice when going for quick cast options all the way through, annoying that it cant be enlarged but I can work with that. – ray targeting should have been fixed last update its freaky seeing your ray hitting the roof because the mob is standing next to you.

Delayed Cast fireball – never use it, as i prefer throwing normal fireballs

Incendiary cloud – not my fave cast I don’t like using clouds but I can see the reason if firewall has been nerfed – the only cloud I cast is acid cloud or cloud kill for boss fights and that’s just for the conceal or to kill bats in VoD

Polar ray – Not too bothered would be better if the cooldown was reduced a bit to compensate for the enlarge not working. Hope you don’t touch the other cold spells.


Firewall – Please leave this alone for the last 3 updates its been nerfed each time if your going to do it again give us an alternative that actually will be useful – discounting ice storm because it was better on Lama before they again nerfed the damage.

_ _ _
How about as an idea:

Acid storm upgrade to acid hands)– causes a raging whirlwind of acid to flow from your hands this settles on the floor making it slippery mobs that don’t make their balance check are pushed back and the secondary affect makes them trip???

Curtain of lightening – causes a lightening storm to form on a designated spot mobs passing through this are stunned unless they make a reflex save.

_ _ _
Spell point regen – looking at this it seems quite good until you realise all the low level spells that cap early and are of little use later cost up to 12 sp while the ones you actually need to cast in later quests i.e. firewall/polar ray cost more than 12 sp makes this a useless feature after lvl 10…. Unless you allow feats/enhancements that will increase the regen limit i..e enhancement line to increase limit by 20sp each time up to 100 sp ????

Still looking at traps/death affects so no opinion yet.

On the whole looks like the nuke mage is going to be put on the shelf and the CC mage is getting a dust off

[Absolute-Omniscience]

The base damage has always been low. It gets it's power from enhancements, potency, and metas. I think dropping the base by ~4 points is going to make a bigger difference than you're giving credit for.
Not that I'm opposed to these changes at all. I'm happy to see WoF getting a nerf while other spells get a boost. I just find it funny that the one change that will affect WoF more than any other is the one that no one is complaining about.

Well, it goes from
30 average (2d6 (weighted dice) +20)
To
27 average (2d6 (non-weighted dice) +20)

Which is a lose of about 10% dps, but then we're getting enhancements that's 50% rather than 40%, so...

[Calebro]

Well, it goes from
30 average (2d6 (weighted dice) +20)
To
27 average (2d6 (non-weighted dice) +20)

Which is a lose of about 10% dps, but then we're getting enhancements that's 50% rather than 40%, so...

Ah, right. I had forgotten about the extra 10% for a moment.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

On the whole looks like the nuke mage is going to be put on the shelf and the CC mage is getting a dust off

What? :confused:
It's more or less the exact opposite.
Nuking mages are going to be really good (read: overpowered), while mass hold mages are going to be a bit more normalized (Read: not overpowered).

[yodino]

FW nerf = TR into water savant. Problem solved!

[Absolute-Omniscience]

FW nerf = TR into water savant. Problem solved!

OR
Earth savant - Melfs (gonna have really good constant DPS at low cost) + acid fog (if it stacks now, or just take one or the other) + Burning hands (probably gonna get changed too, except it to be great) + meteor shower

AND
max fire line - Firewall (unlike if you're water, it wont get gimped) + Burning hands (half is fire, half is earth) + meteor shower (half is fire, half is earth) + incindiary cloud (same as acid fog)

=
REALLY good dot effects (burning hands, firewall, incindiary, melfs, acid fog) and really good pure nuking (meteor shower + delayed blast fireball)

Or potentially air savant, if Chain lightning gets the same effect as lighting = 36d6 dmg, = highest dmg spell in the game (not to mention it's aoe).

[dunklezhan]

When this goes on the preview server can you please allow sorcs to quickly change spells so we can test it out?

Because if the preview is only up for 2 weeks and we can only change one spell every three days, might be a issue with getting decent feedback on how its all working.


Thanks.

On Lammania, see sir pointsalot, get free TPs. Buy a lesser heart of wood from the store. Lesser reincarnate and respec all your spells. Problem solved.

Its sorting ourselves out on live that's got me worried. Personally, I've decided to give earth savant with a force secondary line a go, and have started switching my spells around now.

[Gulnar13]

Pen and paper used spell slots, not spell points. Both friendly units and hostile units take damage while running through both instant and persistent AoE effects. What you are used to using is not pen and paper. Casters have been overpowered for far too long. I'm sure good casters will adapt and bad casters will die. Hopefully this finally eliminates an arcane being able to solo epic quests.

I find quite amusing by someone who has in his sign "ignorance is strenght" a pro-melee post. And not only a pro-melee one, but a "pro-Shade-style" melee one. Not that i have something against Shade, but his playstyle is emulated by many barbarians, who think that the cleric mana bar is part of their red bar.
Also, in pnp wizards are MORE over powered than in DDO. Many spells that we have in pnp here lacks, like the whole wish/miracle line, the various dweomers that emulate clerical spells, and so on.

[Theolin]

2d4 + 1/caster level = 25 average / sec. for 12 sec.
25 x (1 + 0.5 empower + 1.0 maximize) x (1.0 + 0.5 potency + 0.5 enhancements) = 125 / sec.
or (0.75 potency) 140 with clicky/pot.
18% crit for x3 adds 45 on average (I'm only using x2 because I add it to average normal damage) or 50 with clicky/pot.
Total: 170 or 190 / sec., 2,040 or 2,280 over 12 sec.

Sorry, but this is huge for only 6 sp base (granted, it's 46 sp with empower/maximize), as you just need to drop it then hide/run away. Of course, if you drop it on a mob who will die in 2 sec., this is just a bad use of the spell: why cast anything? Haste and keep your sp.
Furthermore, Melph's Arrow has no save, no SR check. This is a very good option for archers and so on. A better option than WoF now.

You can use it the economic way too. Without metas, average damage is 50 + 18 from crits = 68 x 12 sec. = 816 damage for 6 sp. Not bad, really. Sure, many SLA will be better, but the main point of Melph's Arrow is that you can hide/run while waiting for it to do its work.

Exactly my point ... 190/sec < bad melee at lvl 20 ... If you run with competent melees it a worthless spell most trash fights domt last but 5 ish seconds, yea if they give you time to stack up a few aoes and you get off 1 spell / second then you can do what they do but its mostly a waste of sps to try, I have found single target spells just not worth it reguardless of sp cost when your in a group mostly because of how fast they die by the time you target the one that the melees won't swing at till last your spell still won't kill it they will, this has little to do with spells and much to do with the fact that a level 4 char can weild a holy iceyburst weapon in each hand and do an incredible amount of damage comparitively, since that was a choice in power creep that was made you can balance them in 1 of 3 ways, bring the top down, bottom up, or both.

Yes I agree that what they have done is better for single targets ... its just that even so it only brings you up to 2/3 of a melee at best so you are still going to do aoes because you dp(whatever) is greater and it contributes more because even weak aoe at 10 damage to 10 targets is better than 100 to 1 reguardless of sp cost due to how long fights last,

Boss fights are different of course there you just roll through what ever your best dps spells are for the longest timer you have for the best one even so how often can an arcane pull agro from a melee, if both are geared about the same?

[Cartheron]

Water savant will get 1500 single target dps in update 9. Check spell casters forums. Single target dps of casters now skyrocketed, what I mostly fear about this update is that there will be no reason to even bring melee into a raid (little exagaration, but if you can dish out 140 000 damage to raid boss before you will run out of sp, then you need only 4 of you to kill every single raid boss out there, maybe 5 to be safe). And you can still do your usual CC, instakill or whatever you like, all this while being very tough and hard to kill, with reliable self healing (squishy arcanes are squishy because of their choices, not because they have to be squishy).

About melf arrow itself - it is 190 dps by itself, stacking with everything you will cast at the target during its duration. For 46sp. It is extreme.

I agree, casting single target spells on trash is usually waste of sp, but calling single target spells a waste of sp because they are not good against trash is a bit weird - they are not ment to be good against trash, they are ment to be boss killers.

What arcanes lacked for a very long time in DDO was ability to dish meaningful dps against raid bosses. They were always able to completly dominate every trash mob in every quest, even with blanket immunities (this only required a bit more work). Now they will be still be able to do that AND to dish meaningful damage against raid boss (especialy with event daggers/noxious embers). We will see how it will work in the end, and I hope melee dps will still have some reason to exist;)

[Requiro]

As an afterthought, I think I spoke too quickly. (...)
Overall, I'm pleased to see new strategies coming up. This is always good, even if human nature hates change (and this, even if he gets bored of things not changing :)).
I suppose we will need to test it to get a clearer idea of all the implications.

And this is creative way of thinking :)


(...)

Burning hands/Melf’s Acid Arrow – meh really once im past lvl 6 i never use these spells they don’t do enough damage to make it worthwhile and you need to be in range of melee to cast hands which means your dead as soon as something swings for you. If you cast Melfs it’s a waste of sp as a decent melee will take the HP off quicker than you can cast it.

With new power, and free enlarge you can cast it way before the melee get to the target. At least half of the HP will gone when melee start swinging.
(...)
Polar ray – Not too bothered would be better if the cooldown was reduced a bit to compensate for the enlarge not working. Hope you don’t touch the other cold spells.

Strange that you don't use one of the best damaging spell in the game ...:confused:

(...)
Spell point regen – looking at this it seems quite good until you realise all the low level spells that cap early and are of little use later cost up to 12 sp while the ones you actually need to cast in later quests i.e. firewall/polar ray cost more than 12 sp makes this a useless feature after lvl 10…. Unless you allow feats/enhancements that will increase the regen limit i..e enhancement line to increase limit by 20sp each time up to 100 sp ????

You forgot about SL-a. And you want WoW here? No. Just no. 12 SP cap is maximum what should be consider. 10 is better.


Comments in yellow

One more think: Spells that can't be enlarge are already enlarge. See the description. That mean you get enlarge for free.

[joneb1999]

Please note these are just questions and hypothesis upon which I would like to read your thoughts.

Could there be a danger of some metas becoming white elephants after this update?
Would it be fairer to allow metas to work like fast use skills that you can turn on and off to suit for each spell as you cast so it can become part of the skill of spellcasting to select the best metas for what you want the spell to do at whatever cost.
Under the new update would it work better if the cost of the meta more regarded the cost of the spell? For instance a maximise on a 6 sp spell would cost 2x spell cost instead of 25sp making using it on such a spell worhtwhile; with a limit of 20sp to make wall of fire a little less expensive since it has been nerfed otherwise?

[Symar-FangofLloth]

SPELL POINT REGEN – Echoes of Power:

We’ll be introducing a limited form of spell point regen for players who have “magical training” (as in the feat).

I haven't read every post, but I've been trying to keep up with the thread. I don't think anybody who's discussed the SP regen has taken note of the above.

[Darkrok]

Boss fights are different of course there you just roll through what ever your best dps spells are for the longest timer you have for the best one even so how often can an arcane pull agro from a melee, if both are geared about the same?

You would never use a dot for trash unless the trash was going to be alive for the entire dot. If it is, it's cheap dps.

You have to remember that there's an opportunity cost to melee damage. It's the opposite of set it and forget it. In order to do a certain amount of melee dps, the melee must stay there the entire time. With the dot's in the game - melf's, wall of fire, various clouds, ice storm, etc - arcanes have many ways to 'set it and forget it'. They could be doing 150'ish dps here, 400 total dps with their wall of fire (to several enemies), another 150'ish there, and then also casting nukes for additional dps. Their total damage output will be higher if they have the time to apply their attacks to more than one enemy and might even be higher if they can only apply it to a single enemy.

[Requiro]

I haven't read every post, but I've been trying to keep up with the thread. I don't think anybody who's discussed the SP regen has taken note of the above.

Yes we notice. Thats why Bards, Rangers and Paladins don't get their SP regen...

[Cyr]

Some basic issues with this spell pass.

* Speciality rules being applied all over the place. These are the 'this spell is not effected by X'. This gets away from a consistent ruleset, degrades the utility of whatever is being restricted, and is 100% not needed.

* DoT effects as a whole are becoming MORE powerful yet the utility of the most commonly used one is being drastically reduced. This screams that whoever is doing this system does not have clear goals in mind. New Melf's + Incendiary Cloud >> old firewall for damage per second. I'm still waiting to see if the other iconic acid spells got a rework...

* Death Effects are becoming more powerful per hit, but less useful over the course of an adventure. This degrades the utility of having a necromancy spec in many ways (requiring dedicated feats and a PrE).

* Generalists are much more powerful then before. This by itself does not equal a bad thing. It does however show a lack of understanding about how systems interact allowing for the DoT stacking to be effective as well as something like a water savant with very high force and acid damage also for maximized dps.

* Artwork being under utilized seemed to be the main justification for a massive rework for both the developers and the players. This is perhaps the worst explanation for a change of this type that I have seen (and that says a lot considering some of the highly dubious claims made in the past for other things).

* Power Word Kill is just not thought out. Orange named bosses are 100% trivial due to this single addition. This forces certain encounter designs to use red names when they might otherwise not have to be used...which is a bad thing as the red name carries alot of other rules attached to it.

* Metamagics do not scale based upon spell cost. This basically invalidates the entire effort. Players may love throwing lightning bolts at 5th level for cheap, but when they grab heighten for their webs at high levels and find out that that same lightning bolt now has a distorted cost they will stop using it again. Of course that could have been solved by having spells capable of being hotbarred with a choice of metas being applied, but you don't release something major like this without the proper tools in game for it already or being released at the same time.

* Helpless effects (considered as part of the spell pass here) are being changed to be a strict nerf to certain builds and strategies while being a strict buff to others. This creates big winner and losers. Weapon based dps is a loser here while rogues and arcanes are the winners. As good players know that rogues and arcanes are in current game incredibly valued in epics (and arcanes being highly used to solo epics) there was little reason for this distorted buff/nerf.

* Major buffs to certain spells will make certain mob encounters dramatically and disproportionently more dangerous then before. This would be along the lines of unintended consequences...the single change made to metoer swarm dramatically changed the dynamic kobold in a manner that apparently was not properly tested...it's just not believable that when a single change was made and it was not evaluated fully that a list of changes this massive will have had a full vetting.

[Angelus_dead]

* Artwork being under utilized seemed to be the main justification for a massive rework for both the developers and the players.
Lol wut.

[voodoogroves]

While we got by with this, it didn’t exactly always make for the most diverse spell choices for those people who crunched the numbers to determine what to use. When you looked at the math, folks get very attached to certain spells, namely “wall of fire” for very logical reasons. This is a shame considering the art/dev resources devoted to the creation of so many other spells also floating in the system.


This was mentioned, though in my mind this is hardly the "main justification".

[PopeJual]

* Power Word Kill is just not thought out. Orange named bosses are 100% trivial due to this single addition. This forces certain encounter designs to use red names when they might otherwise not have to be used...which is a bad thing as the red name carries alot of other rules attached to it.

I agree with some of what you wrote and I disagree with some of what you wrote, but I did want to jump in on the Power Word Kill thing.

Orange bosses are already trivial. Power Word Kill won't make them any more trivial and I'll be surprised if many people even take PWK after U9 because of the 4 minute cooldown. Sure, it can kill any single creature (if you make your Spell Resistance check), but killing 1 critter every 4 minutes is not going to win you any prizes. The 4 minute cooldown makes it not worth a slot as far as I can see.

Wail of the Banshee's new cooldown is bad enough, but a 4 minute cooldown means once or twice per shrine. Not impressed.

[Angelus_dead]

Orange bosses are already trivial. Power Word Kill won't make them any more trivial
Yep, if PWK can kill it then Drain + Finger can too, and without using up additional spell slots or a lengthy cooldown schedule.

Hypothetically the dungeon builders could create minibosses with super-high Fortitude and extra-large hitpoints, so PWK is a major advantage. But that hasn't been the case so far.

Honestly I'd still look for more ways for PWK to be worth a spell slot, such as following the D&D example and giving Power Word spells a benefit of faster casting and being usable while unable to move normally. Suppose you could still use it while Webbed or Earthgrabbed... that'd be a bit of a niche.

[Elucidus]

I am loving the changes. Especially firewall. This isn't WoW and there shouldn't be one end all be all spell.

I can't wait to see these and the other changes in action.LOL, Just realized some yutz neg rep'd me for my simple comments. Go to town, I don't care. Makes me love the changes even more.
:)

Seriously though, Firewall is not getting that big of a nerf and it is much needed. So get over yourself and learn how to play the game the way it was meant to be played.

[voodoogroves]

Yep, if PWK can kill it then Drain + Finger can too, and without using up additional spell slots or a lengthy cooldown schedule.

Hypothetically the dungeon builders could create minibosses with super-high Fortitude and extra-large hitpoints, so PWK is a major advantage. But that hasn't been the case so far.

Could; not there yet. Spell Pen an issue.

[Letrii]

Yep, if PWK can kill it then Drain + Finger can too, and without using up additional spell slots or a lengthy cooldown schedule.

Hypothetically the dungeon builders could create minibosses with super-high Fortitude and extra-large hitpoints, so PWK is a major advantage. But that hasn't been the case so far.

Don't give them ideas.

[Angelus_dead]

Has to be 999 hit points or your 4 minute timer just did 1000 points of damage ;-)
This is spells we're talking about, not Vorpals.

[voodoogroves]

This is spells we're talking about, not Vorpals.

Yeah I corrected this already (and beat the edit timer)

[dunklezhan]

* Metamagics do not scale based upon spell cost. This basically invalidates the entire effort. Players may love throwing lightning bolts at 5th level for cheap, but when they grab heighten for their webs at high levels and find out that that same lightning bolt now has a distorted cost they will stop using it again. Of course that could have been solved by having spells capable of being hotbarred with a choice of metas being applied, but you don't release something major like this without the proper tools in game for it already or being released at the same time.



Emphasis mine for disagreement purposes! :)

OK - you're right that turning metas on will distort costs (noting that your SLA costs will be unaffected if you have them). But they'll still be cheaper overall (Wall of Fire notwithstanding) than they are now. So you still benefit from the changes. Not by much, I know, but still cheaper. And that means more nukage.

I don't disagree that it would be nice to see what you suggest, but I do disagree that it 'invalidates the entire effort'.

[EKKM]

This is the part that I find funny.
Everyone cries that they want less easy buttons.
Then everyone cries when their easy buttons are taken away.

Which is it? Do you want easy buttons or not? Because WoB on a practically non-existent cooldown is an easy button.
And we all know it.

You know this board isn't you and one other poster with a 200 logins right? It is possible that those that decry easy bottons are different than the posters complaining about the FW nerf.



oh don't get me started on how you roll dice since 2d6 is not the same as 2-12 damage.

Only the notation on the description is 2-12, they do roll 2d6 (or 2d3+6).


I'm thinking more about this and think it is probably good for the game overall. Arcanes should be useful for more functions in end game content now and will hav e more option levelling up. Of course, we'll have to see if it works in application.

[Cheswick]

Can we have "Wall of Fire" scrolls for sale on the vendor again with Update 9? Since the spell won't be that effective anymore anyway. Wizard's have to take it as a trainer spell at level up or pay auciton prices or find one in the wild currently.

[Gratch]

Some basic issues with this spell pass.

* Speciality rules being applied all over the place. These are the 'this spell is not effected by X'. This gets away from a consistent ruleset, degrades the utility of whatever is being restricted, and is 100% not needed.

Which is interesting that you bring this up. I would moreso say they are moving specialty restrictions around to keep things balanced and address player blanket-immunity nagging. Previously it was "this spell works here but not on epic mobs and partially on named mobs and ..." with the monsters being the specialty item. It will be a slightly higher learning curve but they're moving some of the specialty rules onto the spells themselves.


* DoT effects as a whole are becoming MORE powerful yet the utility of the most commonly used one is being drastically reduced. This screams that whoever is doing this system does not have clear goals in mind. New Melf's + Incendiary Cloud >> old firewall for damage per second. I'm still waiting to see if the other iconic acid spells got a rework...

You're putting DoT and AoE DoT's into the same grouping. It appears they are trying to separate them out. Shouldn't the higher level and cost AoE DoT ICloud do more than firewall, a lower level spell?


* Death Effects are becoming more powerful per hit, but less useful over the course of an adventure. This degrades the utility of having a necromancy spec in many ways (requiring dedicated feats and a PrE).

BUT they've added a greater variety of spells for necromancers. Let's face it... NO ONE ever took PWK that wasn't in the PVP tavern. EVER. Unless you wanted to insta kill harbor kobolds (on normal). Go ahead... right now.. go join a Inspired Quarter leveling group and tell them you have PWK and Circle of Death loaded. As they laugh at you for a long time, explain that once they've cut the mobs HP's down - once they get to a sliver left, your spell will work. BRAND NEW spells for all intents and purposes. Larger toolbox. Monster immunities removed. Spell cooldowns adjusted to balance.


* Generalists are much more powerful then before. This by itself does not equal a bad thing. It does however show a lack of understanding about how systems interact allowing for the DoT stacking to be effective as well as something like a water savant with very high force and acid damage also for maximized dps.

I believe what you're saying is there are a broader range of efficient spells available to do dps. I'd call that a Breath of fresh air for this spell system.


* Artwork being under utilized seemed to be the main justification for a massive rework for both the developers and the players. This is perhaps the worst explanation for a change of this type that I have seen (and that says a lot considering some of the highly dubious claims made in the past for other things).

Unused spells is a repercussion of the current few-efficient-spells system, but was not by any means the reason for the spell pass. I believe Turbine's goals were to give arcanes and divines a balanced tool box so we don't end up with today's situation: same boring spells used for most every encounter with about the same spell and possibly feat loadout on near every high level caster. Right now if you end up at encounter X and you don't have spell Y, the vets tell you why you must have everyone else's spell loadout... and numbers and efficiency-wise, they're often correct. You don't have heightened web, waves of exhaustion, firewall, polar ray, and mass-hold? UBER FAIL! Reroll! Get out of our epics.


* Major buffs to certain spells will make certain mob encounters dramatically and disproportionently more dangerous then before. This would be along the lines of unintended consequences...the single change made to metoer swarm dramatically changed the dynamic kobold in a manner that apparently was not properly tested...it's just not believable that when a single change was made and it was not evaluated fully that a list of changes this massive will have had a full vetting.

Granted. This much change will require multiple lama testing, updates, patches, words with devs, and bug reports before both the new BestPlayerSpells and spell combos and new monster/boss encounters that wipe most groups are known and possibly tweaked. Do you like same-same-old boring casting as it's been for most of this game?

OMG... I sound like a fracking media idiot/politician who can't stop using the word toolbox. Must go take acid shower... or fire shower... or ice shower... so many different tools for the same job.

[Gulnar13]

While PWK was useless before, after the patch it will be still useless. 240 sec cooldown is a joke. Somehow, Turbine managed to do with this spell something never one did before; they killed the dead. XD

This said, i will load it. It will be still better than the uselss useless mordekainen disjunction.

[guardiankaiser]

I tried to read the whole thread before posting, but it was long...

so I never saw if there was an answer to metamagics going to % to adjust for spell cost changes, but yeah i hope that doesn't get ignored

Other then that I like it! (Was getting sick of baking everything in firewall and now I'll be using PWK, if not just becuase I'll have nothing better to take and i'll get a kick out of just dropping someone pretty much guaranteed, cool down is the best they can do to make a closer adaptation to the limited use of 9th level spell in PnP, I hope to see plenty of big baddies who are really tough and have a hearty spell resistance shield but no immunities, so if you roll high enough (or are a 3x TR elf (new elf arcanum) wizard, with some serious spell pen) you can eliminate it for the group without much pain)

Oh yeah and people whine too much, especially the deviation to PnP, I still play DnD (3.5 and 4e) and it really doesn't matter becuase as a real time MMO that uses spell points (and when monsters have 1000+ Hp) they really cant use the same system anyway

[selutha]

Just a small question, will/can the graphic get changed for death aura this update. There is a huge post about it in what were the wizard class forum.

[Calebro]

This is the part that I find funny.
Everyone cries that they want less easy buttons.
Then everyone cries when their easy buttons are taken away.

Which is it? Do you want easy buttons or not? Because WoB on a practically non-existent cooldown is an easy button.
And we all know it.You know this board isn't you and one other poster with a 200 logins right? It is possible that those that decry easy bottons are different than the posters complaining about the FW nerf.

WoB means Wail of the Banshee, not Wall of Fire.
You round everything up and press one button. Everything dies. If something happens to survive, you wait a handful seconds and hit that button again.
That's an easy button.
That's the very definition of an easy button.

[voodoogroves]

WoB means Wail of the Banshee, not Wall of Fire.
You round everything up and press one button. Everything dies. If something happens to survive, you wait a handful seconds and hit that button again.
That's an easy button.
That's the very definition of an easy button.

There's a lot of that.

Someone talks about X, immediately the reply is about Wall of Fire and how whoever is such a newb for talking about Wall of Fire.


Lots of separate conversations and plenty of folks reacting to different things.

[Cyr]

Yep, if PWK can kill it then Drain + Finger can too, and without using up additional spell slots or a lengthy cooldown schedule.

Hypothetically the dungeon builders could create minibosses with super-high Fortitude and extra-large hitpoints, so PWK is a major advantage. But that hasn't been the case so far.

Honestly I'd still look for more ways for PWK to be worth a spell slot, such as following the D&D example and giving Power Word spells a benefit of faster casting and being usable while unable to move normally. Suppose you could still use it while Webbed or Earthgrabbed... that'd be a bit of a niche.

And then you have two spells being required in the place of one...

That is twice the casting time, twice the chance of having concentration broken, and almost twice (or more if quicken on) SP used for the same result.

The spell slot issue IS much more of a limiting factor for sorcs, but wizards will just slot this in the content where it is most effective and switch it out when it is not.

[PopeJual]

And then you have two spells being required in the place of one...

That is twice the casting time, twice the chance of having concentration broken, and almost twice (or more if quicken on) SP used for the same result.

The spell slot issue IS much more of a limiting factor for sorcs, but wizards will just slot this in the content where it is most effective and switch it out when it is not.

I can't think of any content where killing 1 enemy (not red named) every 4 mintues is especially helpful.

[PopeJual]

WoB means Wail of the Banshee, not Wall of Fire.

Nobe. Dhat ish Wall ob Bire. I hab a sinus cold.

[Angelus_dead]

And then you have two spells being required in the place of one...

That is twice the casting time, twice the chance of having concentration broken
If Concentration failing is any of a concern, then PWK is the loser. A failed Concentration on Finger means run a lap of the room and Finger again, while a lost PWK spell is 4 minutes before you can try again.

The frequency of encountering non-death-immune minibosses is not high enough for the ability to PWK them once per few minutes to be superior to how we can defeat them with a death spell that's also useful in other situations.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

If Concentration failing is any of a concern, then PWK is the loser. A failed Concentration on Finger means run a lap of the room and Finger again, while a lost PWK spell is 4 minutes before you can try again.

The frequency of encountering non-death-immune minibosses is not high enough for the ability to PWK them once per few minutes to be superior to how we can defeat them with a death spell that's also useful in other situations.

They spell may be useful on a Wiz. Enter combat, kill the biggest non-death immune guy in the room, ignore the spell for the rest of the combat (well, and in many quests, the next SEVERAL sets of combat)

On a sorc having a one-shot spell slot used at that level probably isn't feasible.

[Missing_Minds]

and some Bard love...

Shout: Cost reduced to 6 SP, uses faster casting animation. Change shared with wizards/sorcerers.

Great Shout: Cost reduced to 15 SP, uses faster cast animation. Change shared with wizards/sorcerers.

I hope that is just a typo there, Torc. Else there is no love.

[Aashrym]

I hope that is just a typo there, Torc. Else there is no love.

I think I posted a similar content elsewhere. Getting coincidental benefits from the changes to for sorc/wizzies isn't bard love.

It's the equivalent of finding leftover scraps on the table after the important ppl leave.

[dunklezhan]

It's the equivalent of finding leftover scraps on the table after the important ppl leave.

And lo, didst the minstrel get his vittals for another eve, tho the crowd 'twas much entertained.

[Cyr]

Which is interesting that you bring this up. I would moreso say they are moving specialty restrictions around to keep things balanced and address player blanket-immunity nagging. Previously it was "this spell works here but not on epic mobs and partially on named mobs and ..." with the monsters being the specialty item. It will be a slightly higher learning curve but they're moving some of the specialty rules onto the spells themselves.

Nod, there are moves here (U9) to create a unified ruleset. The issue is that they decided to keep on making exceptions (and new ones at that) when they didn't need to. Is it really needed to restrict enlarge when literally almost no takes this feat now?

You're putting DoT and AoE DoT's into the same grouping. Well of course I am. AoE DoT's are just more powerful beasts of the same family. If they stack then they need to be considered together and not seperately as to how they increase dps and mana efficiency. It appears they are trying to separate them out. Shouldn't the higher level and cost AoE DoT ICloud do more than firewall, a lower level spell? Of course they should. I have never argued that they should not. My point was that they are getting stronger as a whole not weaker despite a major nerf to the most used one. This is a big change...particularly if acid cloud follows suite and becomes a similar damage spell to something like ice storm (if acid DoT's ever stack that is) or an electric DoT (there was a hint of a new electric spell that might be of this sort by it's name) is added that also stacks.


I believe what you're saying is there are a broader range of efficient spells available to do dps. I'd call that a Breath of fresh air for this spell system.

No I would call it a strict increase in caster power. If you can stack DoT's from different elements then being able to spec for multiple elements relatively cheap for most of the benefit of a full spec then that is a very important thing to note. DPS is king in DDO anything that effects DPS in such a major manner as these spell changes with the new sorc PrE on top should be evaluated extensively and tweaked accordingly.

Unused spells is a repercussion of the current few-efficient-spells system, but was not by any means the reason for the spell pass. I believe Turbine's goals were to give arcanes and divines a balanced tool box so we don't end up with today's situation: same boring spells used for most every encounter with about the same spell and possibly feat loadout on near every high level caster. Right now if you end up at encounter X and you don't have spell Y, the vets tell you why you must have everyone else's spell loadout... and numbers and efficiency-wise, they're often correct. You don't have heightened web what competes with this in the new list?, waves of exhaustion what competes with this in the new list?, firewall DoT's are still king except now you get some new stacking spells to make it even more powerful of a strategy, polar ray yeah those water savants will never spam this spell now..., and mass-hold again what competes with this...it's even better now for the caster as holding them makes them take 50% more damage from your blasting spells? UBER FAIL! Reroll! Get out of our epics. Except (and this is very important) you didn't have to reroll based upon these things. I played literally my worst built toon (my first one a fleshy non PM wizard) that was retired for a few years with no LR and pretty much zero gear in epics and had no issues at all. All I had to do was slot mass hold, polar ray, ice storm, firewall, dancing ball, and waves. It was preposterously simple to do these things...

There will ALWAYS be sub-optimal choices. It's silly to think that this will not be the case in DDO. I can tell you right now that U9 will have winners and losers that quickly become defined. It is not a bad thing to try and balance incentives for different things, but you can't do that effectively by changing everything at once. You just end up with a whole bunch of stuff you didn't think of happening.


Granted. This much change will require multiple lama testing, updates, patches, words with devs, and bug reports before both the new BestPlayerSpells and spell combos and new monster/boss encounters that wipe most groups are known and possibly tweaked.

That seems like ALOT of customized tweaking being required. I am always of the opinion that this should be the ORIGINAL way to effectively balance stuff. Not by massive changes all at once.

Do you like same-same-old boring casting as it's been for most of this game?

IDK, I thought that casting was fairly varied prior to the last set of nerfs that got handed out prior to EU. At that time I charmed stuff, debuffed, instant killed, blasted occassionally, and did some CC. Dunno, but that seemed like variety to me. Personally, I don't care if I'm casting firewall three times or ice storm/melf's/horrid wilting it's all dps casting to me.

OMG... I sound like a fracking media idiot/politician who can't stop using the word toolbox.
Must go take acid shower... or fire shower... or ice shower... so many different tools for the same job.

Responses in Red.

[DrownedGhoul]

Regarding PWK: its simply a way to cut the most dangerous mob out of a fight at the start.. yes, the cooldown is long.. but lets use cases where meteor swarm isnt all that hot... aka.. most fire immune mobs.. yes the bludgeon still hurts it, buts its not all that effective or efficient.. so a wizard ( sorcs its pretty useless for ill agree) slots OUT Meteor, and slots IN PWK. and one shots the bastard with the highest fort save who causes the most damage to your party.. saveing himself and the entire party resources. its a situational efficiency spell as i see it.

Regarding metamagics: if they stay the same, it comes down to efficiency - i can blast hard and fast, at a higher cost... or i can shut one or both metas off and blast cheaply but it takes longer... this will also be interesting regarding the new hold change.. i mass hold, suddenly its taking 50% more damage from EVERYTHING.. so to save me some SP i run with no max/emp on... mass hold, then throw cheap AOES for increased damage.. or maybe i just run with one of the 2 on.. think about this also.. maximise with FULL enhancements ( for those who have them) is only 16 SP more.. aka.. its still efficient even on a reduced cost polar ray.. and empower is only 9SP... with the proper items it reduces just a bit more even.. Ornamented Dagger makes Maximise into just 12 SP more... Who doesnt like the idea of 36 SP polar rays?


Regarding Wall of Fire: how often did you have a full 1 minute long firewall lasting anyways? except in abbot, and a few other places.. most things were DEAD long before 1 minute of standing in a firewall... Firewall isnt the kill all spell anymore.. its just DPS... ( it sucked in PnP anyways., so be glad its useful here) And REF save? just stand them in it and ignore the chance to give them a save..

Want to see a fun chain of events for something non-fire immune with lots of HP? Drop a trap version DBF(under full metas) , Incideary cloud on the DBF, and the Wall of Fire on the same spot.... then DBF again once off cooldown.. yes this eats alot of SP (168 to be exact if you take full meta enhancements) but thats the same as 3 Firewalls.. and likely very similar damage as long as you stand them in the cloud/wall..

Metamagics should have their on/off time reduced to compensate for the constant toggling though

[Cyr]

If Concentration failing is any of a concern, then PWK is the loser. A failed Concentration on Finger means run a lap of the room and Finger again, while a lost PWK spell is 4 minutes before you can try again.

The frequency of encountering non-death-immune minibosses is not high enough for the ability to PWK them once per few minutes to be superior to how we can defeat them with a death spell that's also useful in other situations.

Incorrect.

If you made your energy drain conc. check but failed your second conc. check for FoD you would have made your single conc check for PWK in the first place and the mob would be dead. If you failed your first conc check nothing is stopping you from following up with FoD if you cast PWK originally...all for the exact same cost and success chance.

Your logic might work if two checks = one check and using PWK also locked out other spells based upon it's cooldown.

[smatt]

I've always been for a good pass on spells.... Wizzy's BIG advantage over Sorcys is suppossed to be the ability to change spells quest to quest, with the secondary ability of hitting higher DC's easier than sorcys.. With so few truly useful spells, it's simply not that big of a deal currently, at lest beyond lvl 15 or 16. So with these changes I see a big nerf to WoF, which has always been over-powered when considering other choices. Oh and a person will be able to cast 1/3 more polar rays... Um yahoo... OK, looking at the few listed changes... Um ya... PWK.. Who the heck is going to carry THAT spell? 240/210 second cooldown... Yep they made THAT useful... DBF.. Cheaper.. OK... like Polar ray it's already useful, so one can now cast a few more every rest... Cool MCAE... Might be marginally useful, yet another 2 save spell though.. As if anybody carries PK beyond lvl 14 :rolleyes: Do you wonder why? (Hint: 2 save spell) The debuffs... OK... so a -5 to will saves for 15 seconds... MMMM.... Does that make them worth the clicks.. Not really no..

Net effect.... Lvl 1-15 marginal.. A few more spells MIGHT be used..

Net effect lvls 16-20 = A lot more spell points used on less effective WoF, a few more polar rays and DBF's cast...

Total net effect... Quests taking longer... Casters using the same spells they always have, only less efffectively. Looking at the Savant PrE's... Um... Are the Devs really considering the crossover effects here?

Not the Spell pass players are looking for.... Making one of the few AOE damage spells far less effective and far more costly, while not really giving them any other choices of spells to use at least beyond lvls 1-15 isn't doing the game any good. The increased cooldowns on insta-kills great... That will make Wizzy's really happy, oh wait they have that realyl long cooldwon insta-kill.. Kill mob... Wait 4 min hiding in corner.. Kill mob wait 4 min hiding in corner... Why did I load this worthless spell again? Debuff Mob, dance mob wait for melees to beat mob down...

OK, where's the change??? Except for the WoF nerf.. I see nothing really.....


Big picture look at the mentioned spell changes + Epic "nerfafication" to simpleton status + Change to vorpal + Change to helpless damage = Yet another dumbdown/easy button change. I understand the need to make the game as accessible as possible to the 4-8 month player base.... But I mean we're headed into DDO The Hello Kitty edition 3.65

Spell pass needed.... What's been proposed.. Not needed...

[PopeJual]

Incorrect.

If you made your energy drain conc. check but failed your second conc. check for FoD you would have made your single conc check for PWK in the first place and the mob would be dead. If you failed your first conc check nothing is stopping you from following up with FoD if you cast PWK originally...all for the exact same cost and success chance.

Your logic might work if two checks = one check and using PWK also locked out other spells based upon it's cooldown.

If following up a failed PWK with a Finger is viable, then why did you need the PWK in the first place?

Yes, I have more level 9 slots than a Sorcerer, but slots are still precious - even in spell levels that don't have a ton of good spells.

[smatt]

They spell may be useful on a Wiz. Enter combat, kill the biggest non-death immune guy in the room, ignore the spell for the rest of the combat (well, and in many quests, the next SEVERAL sets of combat)

On a sorc having a one-shot spell slot used at that level probably isn't feasible.


Exactly.. OK on my Wiz.. I'm trying to think of that one mob somewhere in the game that would require me to slot this PWK with a 240 sec cooldown Hmmm :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: Can't think of one..... On my Sorcy... Slot this spell when I can't change it every quest, but woohoo it only has a 210 second cooldown... :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: Nope still worthless...


I'm simply trying to consider how any of the changes to the mentioned spells will REALLY effect the spells I would consider using from 16-cap... None.. It only effects how long a particular quest takes, and the tactics it takes to get through the quest with the availble spell point pool.

I can't wait to see what they do to the only useful Cleric DPS spell...

[voodoogroves]

It's all about time. Plat, SP, HP, etc. even $ and turbine points ... the only real resource that has a serious constraint is time.

Cooldowns keep us from playing, dependency chains (debuff x2 then cast) keep us from doing what we really want to do, etc. As they take time, the person-based time constraint comes into play.


No idea what the right number for these are, but there comes a threshold point where it simply isn't worth the time i.e., 5 minutes may as well be once/rest, etc. etc. Once every 30 seconds (depending on the spell) may equate to "never" if there's something active the player can do beyond run around waiting.

[Cyr]

If following up a failed PWK with a Finger is viable, then why did you need the PWK in the first place?

Yes, I have more level 9 slots than a Sorcerer, but slots are still precious - even in spell levels that don't have a ton of good spells.

Merely stating the obvious here that PWK does not lock out other spells except when it takes their spell slot. You could just as easily follow up with the original proposition of energy drain + FoD after all.

The spell slot to me is the major consideration for when to slot this. Guesss that depends on how high the mob saves really go.

[Rodasch]

I can't think of any content where killing 1 enemy (not red named) every 4 mintues is especially helpful.

3 words for you:

Conjoined Abishai Destroyer.

Pretty sure he was orange last time I fought him. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[steelblueskies]

waits till people realize that now sorcs+wizzies can power word kill their way through epics pretty much solo, if they're willin' to wait for the cooldown between packs. might be more efficient too. certainly more likely then expecting melee to consider the wait.

[Kourier]

3 words for you:

Conjoined Abishai Destroyer.

Pretty sure he was orange last time I fought him. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If he's orange, why dont we see people instakill him already with enough energy drains? Pretty sure regular raid boss.

[Angelus_dead]

waits till people realize that now sorcs+wizzies can power word kill their way through epics pretty much solo, if they're willin' to wait for the cooldown between packs. might be more efficient too. certainly more likely then expecting melee to consider the wait.
1. Wizards and Sorcerers can already Hold their way through epics pretty much solo.
2. 4 minutes * 100 monsters = 400 minutes = 6 hours

[PopeJual]

3 words for you:

Conjoined Abishai Destroyer.

Pretty sure he was orange last time I fought him. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Honestly, I can't tell the difference. I could do the Reaver puzzle before the dots were introduced, but for some reason, I just have a terrible time differentiating between orange and red bosses.

[sephiroth1084]

3 words for you:

Conjoined Abishai Destroyer.

Pretty sure he was orange last time I fought him. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You're wrong.

[Farayon]

Why are spell cooldowns now being pretty much equalized for many spells for wiz/sorc? One of the advantages of being sorc over wiz was faster casting and shorter cooldowns, why is this advantage being removed in update 9?

[KreepyKritter]

Why are spell cooldowns now being pretty much equalized for many spells for wiz/sorc? One of the advantages of being sorc over wiz was faster casting and shorter cooldowns, why is this advantage being removed in update 9?


Because God Hates Sorcs!

At least that's what the Westboro Baptist church says...

*pause*

Wait... what?

Oh, God also says he hates Druids, so you can't have them either.

[Aaxeyu]

Honestly, I can't tell the difference. I could do the Reaver puzzle before the dots were introduced, but for some reason, I just have a terrible time differentiating between orange and red bosses.

You can change the colors in the menu. I too had problems seeing if a boss was red or orange, so I made the orange bosses yellow instead.

[Aaxeyu]

Why are spell cooldowns now being pretty much equalized for many spells for wiz/sorc? One of the advantages of being sorc over wiz was faster casting and shorter cooldowns, why is this advantage being removed in update 9?

It's not removed, it's somewhat lessened. The absolutely insane DPS a sorc will be able to dish out makes up for it by far.

[joneb1999]

LOL, Just realized some yutz neg rep'd me for my simple comments. Go to town, I don't care. Makes me love the changes even more.
:)

Seriously though, Firewall is not getting that big of a nerf and it is much needed. So get over yourself and learn how to play the game the way it was meant to be played.

+1 rep. too many people misusing the rep system. ive been a victim myself a few times. i think i have even had a mod correct it with positive rep.

[PopeJual]

You can change the colors in the menu. I too had problems seeing if a boss was red or orange, so I made the orange bosses yellow instead.

AAXEYU IS MY NEW BEST FRIEND FOREVER!!!!!1!one!!!!1!!eleven!

This is one of the top 5 tips that I've ever gotten in DDO.

The other 4 tips that I liked best:
-F-keys to target other players instead of trying to click them to heal.
"stop running around so that I can heal you!"

-If you go into the options, you can turn off all of the tips that appear on the side of the screen. I liked them on my first character, but I didn't like them on my 12th character.

-If you move around one mob while all his buddies are trying to kill you, his buddies will end up just chasing you instead of actually hitting you. Add in a paralyzer for that one mob you're smacking and life is good from level 12 through 16.

-Go get a Superior Inferno clicky.

[zex95966]

well extend is pretty useless now for arcanes.

I like pretty much everything else. Like the devs and most players said, firewall needed a nerf.

enlarge took a hit too, but I guess no one was using it anyways.

I'm all for the changes... but we still need kobolds as a playable race.

[Asirin]

I seem to remember the last time that Arcanes got the "change for the better".During that time cloudkill,web and solid fog were grouping staples for any caster(sorc or wiz).
I also remember the severe bugs (I suspect some are still ongoing) that tampering with the aggro table (Above named AoE's used to cause ZERO aggro) seemed to cause.

I'm not too happy about the change but I will roll with it,all I ask is that the changes not be made all willy nilly.After all this combat system is most of what sells the game.


P.S. please adjust the new cooldowns between sorceror and wizard accordingly for obvious reasons.After all it's not really fair to have a sorc who casts slower than a snail driving a hybrid.

[Perseu]

So let me understand that, you guys are making more overpowered casters? Great its just what we need, Why you just don´t erase all other classes and we stick with the casters and the fvs with thf?

[Rodasch]

So let me understand that, you guys are making more overpowered casters? Great its just what we need, Why you just don´t erase all other classes and we stick with the casters and the fvs with thf?

ROFL. Love the drama based on hearsay, assumptions, and incomplete data.

You forgot to mention "slap in the face" and threaten to quit playing.

[Rodasch]

You're wrong.

Wouldn't be the first time, but all the same, I'll check for myself in 2 days when I go back in there...just to be sure.

[Lycurgus]

I have personally not ever used a greataxe on my caster...and i've been fine...you can solo most low level content with a pocket healer using your wands and spells...(wands for level 1 only) because the shrines are spaces that you should really have enough sp to make it if your doing your job correctly...as for in a party...greataxe no...haste melees makes melees happy melees kill things...you don't take unneeded damage and this also makes the healers happy...so fw is gimped a little bit oh well...since its mostly used for undead anyway..who don't have reflex saves this should be fine. You can still run through delera's in 8 mins with your fw...you just might have to cast a couple extra since its no longer doing double damage. anyway i just thought i'd point out that a greataxe doesn't do more damage then say a scorching ray if your built properly.

I dunno, I actually enjoy walking into epics, throwing hypno, maybe a web, a mass hold at the nearest group of mobs and breaking out the green steel great axe. No, it doesn't compare to melee damage, but it beats the heck out of standing in a corner pew pewing with SLAs or twiddling thumbs when out of mana. The healers are happy because I'm scroll reconning myself, and not taking damage outside of their mass heals, and the melee are happy because they always catch rage and haste when they're centered on the mob, right where I am.

[ycy1975]

What else can I say? Oh right, this is a good news, stopping me from paying more money for something that is not interesting to me. Good job.

Lets take a guess how many casters will leave this time? No matter I guess, as long as they are not pay-to-play players. It is too lag for now, getting some players off server maybe a good idea.

Maybe arcane will be more 'important' later on since they are harder to be found among server, hahahahahaha.

Healer shortage + Arcane shortage, ummmm sounds sweet.

[redgod]

Well at least my 6 past lives in wizzie and sorc will be great now that i am going to be a favored soul really hope it works on lamaland and you all change my mind but savant looks weak and this looks like a short bus answer to cry babie noobs who dont want to work for anything.

so how did you decide to leave 12 static sp regen did to many ftp players cry about learning to manage resources.

with sla's its unlimited casting why have a mana bar just put timers on and let it go that is the next step when they cry 12 is not enough right enjoy the slide down the slippery slope

[Aaxeyu]

AAXEYU IS MY NEW BEST FRIEND FOREVER!!!!!1!one!!!!1!!eleven!

Hehe. Happy to help.

[ycy1975]

Oh, and one more thing. I've seen mention of people kiting through firewalls. Why? Other than certain very specific situations, why are you not kiting IN your firewalls?

If you wanna keep distance from monsters you have to run away from monsters, that means you can only kite them through firewall.

If you stand still there, they will hit you, hard, even you have HF.

You wanna die or not?

[redgod]

If you wanna keep distance from monsters you have to run away from monsters, that means you can only kite them through firewall.

If you stand still there, they will hit you, hard, even you have HF.

You wanna die or not?

lol learn to heal or drink a pot or i know it a harsh idea stop building glass cannons and make a howitzer.

[Gleep_Wurp]

[QUOTE=Torc;3663808] While loyal to our roots we felt that perhaps the current learning curve is a bit too harsh, and we’re looking at making it an easier class role to enter for new players.

i guess my loyalty means nothing.its about the new player.

[xman26]

Increasing damage on some spells and lowering the SP cost on damage spells reeaaallllly screwed us over. Yup. ;)

Bug fixes that are still around is a more valid point. Reducing the cost of melf's acid arrow, giving it a free built in enlarge, and increasing the damage per tick not so much. There is potential for more spells to be useful. Variety is good. We'll see reality when it hits Lamma, but I like some of the spell changes as listed.

Yes the damage has been increased SLIGHTLY, and it is slight, but with NO EXTEND and timers LOCKED at 30sec, you are DOING LESSSSS Damage over Time than BEFORE!! IE: WE ARE BEING SCREWED OVER IF YOU USE A WIZZY/SORC!!

[Aaxeyu]

Yes the damage has been increased SLIGHTLY, and it is slight, but with NO EXTEND and timers LOCKED at 30sec, you are DOING LESSSSS Damage over Time than BEFORE!! IE: WE ARE BEING SCREWED OVER IF YOU USE A WIZZY/SORC!!

Except the fact that sorcs can now outDPS barbs by using their FREE spells.

You really need to get some perspective.

[Sethasoigh]

except The Fact That Sorcs Can Now Outdps Barbs By Using Their Free Spells.

You Really Need To Get Some Perspective.

+1

[KreepyKritter]

I keep hearing people crying about how this isn't true to D&D's PnP roots... Fine. Why don't we take away all your SP, and only let you cast each of your prepped spells once per rest, or once per quest (really true to PnP).

Hell, while we're at it, let's go ahead and roll back to 2nd ed AD&D and take out all the meta-magic feats as well.

Or, since allegedly we're all adults here, why don't we take a look at how this might benefit the masses, instead of how it hurts the vocal minority of Oober-l33t gamerz and their S00p3r K3wL p0w3rz.

Free enlarge on a number of pretty nice low level nuker spells. Enhancements to the ray targetting code. Improved damage on a number of spells all around. A couple high level spells coming into their own as high damage spells. Double damage potential on some, improvements to debuffs. I see shout and greater shout getting a lot more use. I'm intrigued to see more specifics on a number of other spells.

No one wants to see all that though. Everyone just sees that wall of fire got the nerf bat, even though I've seen gaggles of players and devs complain about wall of fire being the arcane easy button that allows even the gimpiest n00b caster to solo just about any quest.

I recall not long ago TWF getting the nerf bat, and HUGE numbers of TWF players going into nerd-rages and threatening to leave, and spouting about how it was breaking the game and how their DPS was taking a hit so they weren't going to be able to breeze through elite quests any more... Y'know what? Elite should be DIFFICULT. Epic should be near impossible. However, I also notice no one complaining about deathward coming off trash-mobs in epic quests.

Y'know what... never mind. You guys win the intar-webs. I'll go back to playing my toons and I'll try really hard to remember to miss all those people who rage-quit over these changes.

[xman26]

I keep hearing people crying about how this isn't true to D&D's PnP roots... Fine. Why don't we take away all your SP, and only let you cast each of your prepped spells once per rest, or once per quest (really true to PnP).

Hell, while we're at it, let's go ahead and roll back to 2nd ed AD&D and take out all the meta-magic feats as well.

Or, since allegedly we're all adults here, why don't we take a look at how this might benefit the masses, instead of how it hurts the vocal minority of Oober-l33t gamerz and their S00p3r K3wL p0w3rz.

Free enlarge on a number of pretty nice low level nuker spells. Enhancements to the ray targetting code. Improved damage on a number of spells all around. A couple high level spells coming into their own as high damage spells. Double damage potential on some, improvements to debuffs. I see shout and greater shout getting a lot more use. I'm intrigued to see more specifics on a number of other spells.

No one wants to see all that though. Everyone just sees that wall of fire got the nerf bat, even though I've seen gaggles of players and devs complain about wall of fire being the arcane easy button that allows even the gimpiest n00b caster to solo just about any quest.

I recall not long ago TWF getting the nerf bat, and HUGE numbers of TWF players going into nerd-rages and threatening to leave, and spouting about how it was breaking the game and how their DPS was taking a hit so they weren't going to be able to breeze through elite quests any more... Y'know what? Elite should be DIFFICULT. Epic should be near impossible. However, I also notice no one complaining about deathward coming off trash-mobs in epic quests.

Y'know what... never mind. You guys win the intar-webs. I'll go back to playing my toons and I'll try really hard to remember to miss all those people who rage-quit over these changes.

In case you missed my first post, which it appears you did. I said

"Wanna nerf damage, ok, wanna make it more exspensive to cast, even dumber, but ok"

Its the removal of extended on all the DoTs that I and many others have a major issue with. If we can't extnded them, why the hell even have Extended metafeat in the game?

[KreepyKritter]

First, let me clarify that I did not miss your post.

Point of fact, I chose not to read your post. It was a conscious act because I wasn't actually responding to you.

Second... Clear this up for me...



5. Wall of fire ( up to 35 SP – targets now get a reflex save for half when they first enter the effect, but no saves against the flames if they remain in the wall. Now only does an additional 2d6 against undead instead of double. Duration is now locked to 30 seconds regardless of level. Can no longer be extended)

...

7. Incendiary cloud (Cost remains 45 SP – Now does 2d4 + 1 per caster level in fire damage, no save. Duration locked to 30 seconds. Blind effect (previously no save) now has a reflex save. Can no longer be extended)


This is where I get lost... Okay, so the timers got locked. Fine, gripe about extend getting nerf'd for these two spells (and Melf's). But, let's look at IC... Before, it was locked to 4d6 damage per tick. No more, no less. Period. Fixed.

Now, 2d4+1 per caster level, per tick... hmm... Level 8 spell... Hmmm... Did you do the math on that? I did... HMMMMM!!

Now lets look at Melf's... 2d4+1 per caster level, per tick... Now, that may not seem like much. But lets look at that as cast by a capped toon ... hmmmm!

So, potentially, you have an AoE, and a single target, DoT spell... Drop IC, drop cloudkill (currently 2d6 per tick), now start kiting mobs through your (Much larger AoE) clouds, plinking them with Melf's, and watch your numbers. You don't even have to DO anything except run in circles and sling Melf's and you're going to auto-pop 4d4+2 (per tick/per level) + 2d6, every two seconds. Line up acid fog as well, and now you're at ((4d4+2) + (4d6+1)) *6.

But maybe you still want your fire wall... Okay... Now we're looking at ((4d4+2) + (6d6+2)) * 6 and then you're still hitting for ((2d4+1) + (2d6+1)) *9 once your cloud effects go away... Run your numbers through that and then go back and respecc your wiz to take advantage of some new math.

Note that empower and maximize still function as well... So go back and add 150% to all those numbers.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

First, let me clarify that I did not miss your post.

Point of fact, I chose not to read your post. It was a conscious act because I wasn't actually responding to you.

Second... Clear this up for me...



This is where I get lost... Okay, so the timers got locked. Fine, gripe about extend getting nerf'd for these two spells (and Melf's). But, let's look at IC... Before, it was locked to 4d6 damage per tick. No more, no less. Period. Fixed.

Now, 2d4+1 per caster level, per tick... hmm... Level 8 spell... Hmmm... Did you do the math on that? I did... HMMMMM!!

Now lets look at Melf's... 2d4+1 per caster level, per tick... Now, that may not seem like much. But lets look at that as cast by a capped toon ... hmmmm!

So, potentially, you have an AoE, and a single target, DoT spell... Drop IC, drop cloudkill (currently 2d6 per tick), now start kiting mobs through your (Much larger AoE) clouds, plinking them with Melf's, and watch your numbers. You don't even have to DO anything except run in circles and sling Melf's and you're going to auto-pop 4d4+2 (per tick/per level) + 2d6, every two seconds. Line up acid fog as well, and now you're at ((4d4+2) + (4d6+1)) *6.

But maybe you still want your fire wall... Okay... Now we're looking at ((4d4+2) + (6d6+2)) * 6 and then you're still hitting for ((2d4+1) + (2d6+1)) *9 once your cloud effects go away... Run your numbers through that and then go back and respecc your wiz to take advantage of some new math.

Note that empower and maximize still function as well... So go back and add 150% to all those numbers.

While your general point still stands, ie. That you'll do more damage now than before.
You're forgetting that acid dots dont stack with acid dots, nor does fire dots stack with fire dots.
That is, you can only have either melfs or acid fog, + either firewall or ic.

It's still more damage than the current "just firewall", but not as obsene as it would be if it all stacked (would probably go over 1k aoe dps with dots)

[Lycurgus]

Drop IC, drop cloudkill (currently 2d6 per tick), now start kiting mobs through your (Much larger AoE) clouds, plinking them with Melf's....

And thus we witness the birth of a truly arcane archer....

[KreepyKritter]

So then we swap Acid Fog for Ice Storm.

Now we have them stuck in the AoE's longer, and also taking 5d3+15. At that point, stand in the middle with death aura on and drop them all like flies and forget about Melf's entirely. So Ck + IC + IS + DA and if you want to get really mean, Disco Ball the mess of them and start dropping Sunburst in the middle of the AoE.

Improved tactics equate to improved DPS which makes this less of a nerf to a single spell and more of a buff to the viability of the rest of the arcane spell book... it just forces people to think a little harder.

[KreepyKritter]

And thus we witness the birth of a truly arcane archer....

Arcane? No... profane? Yes.

[Zaodon]

Turbine,
after reading about the Update 9 spell changes, its pretty clear to me that you really didn't understand the needs of the players or the feedback we've given you over the years. Let me try to explain the problem with the proposed Update 9 spell changes, and then suggest how you can fix it.

The fundamental problem with spells in DDO is that they are based on PnP D&D balance, not MMORPG balance. In PnP D&D, there are only so many encounters per "day" (or rest period). This is written into the rules to be approximately 4-5 encounters, and of those encounters 1-2 should be "at level or above", and the rest should be "slightly below level", to pose the right challenge to the party.

The inherent flaw with using that system in DDO is that the "encounters per day" mechanism simply does not exist. In DDO, quests involve scores of combats, in real time, at level (or harder on hard/elite/epic), for extended periods of time. What this does is extend the entire combat system out over far more time than intended. When you stretch the combat system out, DPS (Damager Per Second) and the ability for any class to contribute to a fight rapidly skews from spell casting to melee. The reason is that melee is infinite, and works against only 1 real statistic - hit points. Vorpals/Banishers/Disruptors aside, melee's do not have a lot of variety in actual form of their attack - its melee damage. Their only real choices revolve around bypassing DR.

Arcane casters, however, do not have the ability to sustain DPS the same way melees can. In PnP, its ok, because encounters are fixed to 4-5. In other words, in PnP, casters can "blow their wad" and keep up or even out DPS the melees. But that is not true in DDO. The nature of DDO real time combat means spell casting cannot compete due to limited spell point pools. This is why casters have over-relied on spells like Wall of Fire. Its not because its a good spell, its because its mana-efficient, and there aren't many other choices.

Casters are not meant to play like melees. While melee attacks one "stat" of the monster (hit points), casters were meant to be able to wield an arsenal of spells which are capable of attacking 3 stats: Fortitude, Reflex, Will. The entire point of spellcasting is supposed to be versatility in magic. Dumb monster? Attack its will. Clumsy monster? Attack its reflex. Weak monster? Attack its Fortitude.

We expected that the "spell pass" of DDO would give casters more choices to play their proper role - that of the utilitarian. Yes, we all love raw power and 2000 damage Polar Rays. But if you try to make arcane casters into sustained DPS classes, they will naturally lose their role and their value.

To this end, it is not a good idea to reduce the effectiveness of some spells so that other spells "appear" more attractive. What you should have done, is give casters more options, not less. If Wall of Fire was so good, then you should have introduced Wall of Acid, Wall of Lightning, Wall of Ice and Wall of Force. Not nerfed Wall of Fire so Acid Arrow seems like its a better spell. Instead of making instant-kill spells like Wail of the Banshee utterly useless with long cooldowns, you should have given players other good, effective level 9 spells to compete for the spell slot, while making Wail's spellpoint cost a bit higher to compensate. But a long cooldown makes the spell useless. Never mind the 4 minute cooldown on Power Word:Kill which guarantees that no one will take that spell.

We're not asking for "uber DPS!!1!" Lower the damage of Wall of Fire, increase its spell point cost, do whatever you think you need if you think its too powerful. But we don't use it as a staple spell because its uber. We use it because we have no alternatives. I submit for you to try to replace Wall of Fire with a simple Fireball and see if you can complete the same quests you could before. Or even the new Lightning Bolt. What we want, more than anything else, is to be the masters of knowledge. We know what that monster is, we know what it is vulnerable to, and we have just the right spell to attack it. That is what makes casters, well, casters. Melee can swap to Holy, or Flaming, or Icy Burst, or Lightning Strike, or Vorpal, or Greater Bane, or whatever the situation calls for. Why can't arcane spell casters have exactly the same choices? We don't cast Wall of Fire because its the best choice. We cast it because its the ONLY choice. IMHO, you are not making the right choice with the spell pass if all you're doing is balancing. We don't need balancing. We need more valid options to choose between when facing different foes.

The effect of adding an arcane caster to a party should be to gain something you can't gain with another character choice. How does the new spell pass make us unique? Bards can haste, rage, displace, GH and sing, providing buffs to the party. Melee out DPS us. Healers are, of course, unique. So, where does this spell pass leave us? Swapping from Wall of Fire to Incendiary Cloud and annoying everyone? Saying "sorry, Wail is on cooldown, can't clear the portals" ?? Saying, "sorry about pulling agro, all I can do is cast DPS spells now and that steals agro." I don't feel the spell pass, as advertised thus far, is the right direction for DDO. Its moving casters more towards DPS/mindless button pressing, and less towards unique utility/capabilities that the party can't get any other way.

[Cartheron]

While your general point still stands, ie. That you'll do more damage now than before.
You're forgetting that acid dots dont stack with acid dots, nor does fire dots stack with fire dots.
That is, you can only have either melfs or acid fog, + either firewall or ic.

It's still more damage than the current "just firewall", but not as obsene as it would be if it all stacked (would probably go over 1k aoe dps with dots)

Currently this is not true, Ive been doing test of incidentary cloud in ADQ and both firewall and cloud ticked in the same time. I think melf+acid fog would work too.

[Aashrym]

Yes the damage has been increased SLIGHTLY, and it is slight, but with NO EXTEND and timers LOCKED at 30sec, you are DOING LESSSSS Damage over Time than BEFORE!! IE: WE ARE BEING SCREWED OVER IF YOU USE A WIZZY/SORC!!

We don't need more than 30 second firewalls. We can simply use the cheaper burst damage on top of DoT's rotated in with cheap SLA's.

This isn't a nerf to casters, it's a nerf to wall of fire, and one that was bound to happen.


Its the removal of extended on all the DoTs that I and many others have a major issue with. If we can't extnded them, why the hell even have Extended metafeat in the game?

For buffs, possibly for some CC spells. I don't think it's necessary to remove it from DoT's but I would expect those DoT durations to become shorter to compensate in the big damage/SP calculations any so it becomes moot if the goal is to balance damage per cost.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Currently this is not true, Ive been doing test of incidentary cloud in ADQ and both firewall and cloud ticked in the same time. I think melf+acid fog would work too.

Hmm, strange. Considering burning blood doesn't stack with any of em. Well, I might be wrong, which I would be happy to be.

Either way, U9 is the patch we will all remember as the patch when sorcerors got overpowered.

[KreepyKritter]

Currently this is not true, Ive been doing test of incidentary cloud in ADQ and both firewall and cloud ticked in the same time. I think melf+acid fog would work too.

Which would mean you can now expand the above calculations to include cloudkill and ice storm all amped by 150% with empower/maximize

If using these tactics you're not significantly increasing your own DPS potential by exponential amounts... you're doing it wrong.

I wonder if some one wouldn't be willing (pre U9) to go in game and actually test to see if all these AoE's work in conjunction effectively with their single target DoT equivilants... and then try out the combination to see how viable that solution is presently, minus extend.

[arcticsparro]

I think the spell pass is great in some ways - I like the idea that they are trying to make things more versatile and open up the spell option (though my casters now are acid specc'd and/or lightning specc'd anyway) I could really care less about the WoF adjustment - been OP since it was put it - it utility will remain for the most part even tho it will not be the spell of choice in every quest now. My biggest complaint is the locking out of meta-magics. If you are going to have EXTEND or ENLARGE or whatever feats in the game then they need to be able to be applied to the things they are supposed to affect. Even though the raw power of Melf's is changing - locking the timer and not allowing it not to be extended or have the duration altered in anyway is dumb. It detracts from the desirability of the meta as a feat and provides one more arbitrary exception to the rules. It also doesn't make sense that Damage Over TIME effects can not have their duration lengthened or shortened. IMO that functionality should remain intact and other costs/powers/etc balanced so that it works - If Extend is to powerful, make it last 50% longer instead of twice as long or double the cost or whatever - I'm absolutely not opposed to the general changes but i am opposed to eliminating the options having the meta magics provide - If the metas are so worthless or OP (gotta be one or the other?) that they are not an option or "built-in" like Extend and Enlarge just became - then just remove them completely and adjust accordingly - please don't arbitrarily decide where and when which rules and options apply. That just makes it seem like you think we are all to stupid to choose when and how to apply them.

Also - I found it ridiculously easy to solo as a caster the low levels as well - even CASTING *GASP* :eek: - just use the right tool for the job- The SP regen thing in the currently limited form is fine I guess - but not needed by any means - new players need to learn just like us older players did what works and what doesn't and when - and OMG! that might involve dying once or changing tactics. GASP! :eek: Casters aren't melees (though they can be pretty well if built right/wrong :) ) they are SUPPOSED to play differently - It would be nice if newer players learned that charging in guns a blazing isn't always the best strategy for everything -would save a lot of headaches when the adjust to mid/end game - just like if some of the older players realized there are more ways to do things then to DPS and heal through the damage they are receiving. ( Oh Wait - that's the EXACT same problem... :p )

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Which would mean you can now expand the above calculations to include cloudkill and ice storm all amped by 150% with empower/maximize

If using these tactics you're not significantly increasing your own DPS potential by exponential amounts... you're doing it wrong.

I wonder if some one wouldn't be willing (pre U9) to go in game and actually test to see if all these AoE's work in conjunction effectively with their single target DoT equivilants... and then try out the combination to see how viable that solution is presently, minus extend.

I check it, they don't stack. Only one dot per element.

[slimkj]

Either way, U9 is the patch we will all remember as the patch when sorcerors got overpowered.
You know it's not the first time. ;)

[sephiroth1084]

I check it, they don't stack. Only one dot per element.
This has been my experience as well, and as a consequence I've only ever used Incendiary Cloud vs. fire-susceptible monsters that are immune to firewall (Lailat after she rages and the Abbot).

[KreepyKritter]

I check it, they don't stack. Only one dot per element.

Fair enough... So pick your elements... CK gives high end acid, plus con damage on each tick. IC has the chance to blind, and does your fire damage. Ice Storm (IS) slows, does cold damage and bludgeoning damage (5d3+15 total). Drop mass hold, or disco ball and start spamming Sunburst/Chain Missle/Electric loop in the middle of the mob. You're still hammering the hell out of everything caught in the cloud.

[Zilta]

Maybe the devs could add an extremely high cost permanency spell or feat so that wall of fire could be extended for an obscene amount of sp

[Cyr]

I check it, they don't stack. Only one dot per element.

Nod, best DoT combo's I see (from the limited information we have so far)...

Ice Storm + Melf's on an acid or water savant
Incin Cloud + Melf's on a fire or acid savant

If burning blood looks like melf's except both elements tick for melf's damage after spell pass

Burning Blood + Ice Storm on a acid savant assuming burning blood is both acid and fire

There is also the real possibility of a remodeled acid cloud so that has to be considered also..

You will note that the above three demonstrate acid savant as a viable choice with what little we know and can reasonably speculate on at this point. Particularly because they have a 15 resist bypass for those devils with resistance.

[sephiroth1084]

Yeah, Cyr, I don't have a sorc, but Acid Savant looks like the best option as it doesn't hurt your other primary flavors of fire and cold, while giving you some excellent DoTs that bypass most of the resistance any monsters in the game have vs. acid.