Battle Cleric?

[Habreno]

I've been toying with the idea of making a battle cleric. Have an itineration of one on Argonessen leveled to 4 from Veteran, but was really thinking about the stats today. Don't have a planner on this computer, but here's my ideas:


My restrictions (since I will be rolling one up)

Doable with 1000 favor (this gives only Drow and Veteran status)
Monk is out
Favored Soul is out
Warforged is out
Half Elf is out
Half Orc is out.

1) This would only truly work on a race that either has no base stat modifications or Drow. If you aren't using Drow, you'll need 32-point builds. If you can make it work on something with base stat modifications, it is possible but hard: Elf immediately comes to mind. Dwarves would have insanely difficult times with the CHA requirement. Warforged would have the same difficulty. Halflings would have strength issues. Being not VIP, I don't quite know all the classes.

2) This is definitively not new-player friendly. I would actually recommend not doing this on anything that has not been TRed yet due to difficulties in statistics and heavy tome requrements. I recommend at least 10 tomes for the build, with at least 6 decently necessary.

3) How you build this depends on what race you pick: I will list what I've thought through but you can take it how you wish.

DROW: 28 point build

STR: 16 <- You need the strength to swing. And hit. Hard. Four level ups into this.
DEX: 10 <- 10 base from DROW. No points into it.
CON: 12 <- 6 points, no less. More if you manage it.
INT: 12 <- Skill points. Drop this if you don't want them.
WIS: 12 <- Can be as low as 10 on a double TR. You need 19 with items, tomes, and enhancements. 12 is best on a first life.
CHA: 16 <- 20 base CHA for Divine Might IV at level 20. +3 tome almost necessary for this; one level up makes this 20 with that. If you pass on a +4 CHA tome you don't need any level ups into it.


Recommended: Tomes:

+1 STR at L4
+1 WIS at L4 (optional)
+2 WIS at L7
+2 CON at L7
+2 STR at L7
+2 CHA at L7 <- Not necessary at this level but highly recommended. You need it by L15 for DM3.
+2 INT at L7 if you want the skill points.

+3 CHA by L20, +4 CHA by L20 if you manage it.
+4 STR when acquired; not mandatory but highly recommended.
+4 CON when acquired; also not mandatory but highly recommended.
+4 INT if passed down and you want the skill points. Not necessary.
+4 WIS if you want the SP. +3 WIS if you don't need all 4 points.

Any +2/+4 DEX tome is welcomed, but not necessary.


Level ups:

L4: STR
L8: STR
L12:STR
L16:STR
L20:CHA unless you have a +4 tome. STR if you have it.


HUMAN: 32 point build

STR: 16
DEX: 8
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 16

As can clearly be seen, Drow > Human at 28/32 point level. Drow gains an extra 2 points in Dexterity and Wisdom for a 2 point Constitution reduction. Keep in mind Intelligence can be taken as high or low as needed for your skill points.

Tomes: Same as Drow.

Planned Feats:

L1) *Have to look this up*
L3) Toughness
L6) Empower Healing (to qualify for the Radiant Servant PrE, about the only healing end-game you'll be useful for)
L9) Force of Personality (Your CHA will be so much higher than your WIS after items. If you don't like the sound of it, take something else)
L12) Extra Turning (If you don't need this, take something else. I might pull this anyway; given a CHA going up to 30-32, you should have enough turns...)
L15) Toughness (More HPs are always welcome)
L18) Quicken (can be swapped with Toughness at L15 if wanted)

Turns (to be used on Divine Might):

16 CHA + 3 tome + 1 level = qualification for DM4 (20)
20 CHA + 7 item + 3 exceptional + 2 enhancement = 32.
32-10=22/2=11 modifier + 3 base = 14 turns without items or feats.
+4 for Extra Turning feat = 18
+(I think 4) from enhancements increasing turns = 22

There are also items which grant more turns.

Total consistent time in DM4 at L20: 43 uninterrupted minutes of Divine Might 4 before any break.



AFTER 1 TR:

DROW: 30 Point Build

STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 14 <- Two extra points over 28 point build here.
CHA: 16

Level ups the same.

Feats the same.

HUMAN: 34 Point Build

STR: 16
DEX: 8
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 12 <- Two extra points over 32 point build here.
CHA: 16

Level ups the same.

Feats the same.

Drow still wins over Human for higher DEX and WIS.


2+ TR (the only point at which I recommend trying this build-even better with Completionist)

DROW: 32 Point Build (Two versions of this build; take your pick: Version 3 is ONLY if taking Completionist affects base CHA-I do not know; if it does not, ignore V3 entirely)

STR: 16/16/16
DEX: 10/10/10
CON: 14/12/14 <- V1's use of the four extra points over 28 point build.
INT: 12/12/12
WIS: 12/15/14 <- Two extra points in V2 over 30 point build.
CHA: 16/16/14 <- V3: Assuming Completionist affects base CHA, 14 + 1 level + 3 tome + 2 feat = 20 requisite.


HUMAN: 36 point build

STR: 16
DEX: 8
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 14
CHA: 16


Feats/Tome requirements the same.


Final notes:

1) This build would be very intensive. You would definitively need to use a planner to plan this out fully; I did not because I did not have access to one when thinking of this and because it is something you should plan out yourself to your playstyle. If you want a battlecleric do you want something that can fight well with DPS or do you want something that would prefer to splash? This is only a pure-DPS non-splashed Cleric. You may want to use this for ideas and take it your own way.

2) This build is NOT FOR NEW PLAYERS. The only reason I am trying it on a first-life Drow is because I want to have some fun with it; If it does hit L20 it would be TRed into another Battlecleric. I would personally recommend getting at least two past lives, or even better Completionist, before even attempting this. It is very stat, tome, and gear-dependent. Making sure you have the requirements as early as possible is very key. DM4 is the ONLY thing you can postpone (or skip entirely if this is just to get a Cleric past life for a Completionist journey) as it is L20 and requires at minimum a +3 CHA tome to work efficently. While a +4 would work even better, it is not necessary.

3) KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING. Yes, this re-interates #2, but I cannot stress enough... Be willing to tell people you're not a healer, you're DPS. You won't be able to cast pretty much anything efficently, your SP will be low, and your HP will need several items to bring it up. Your SP will pretty much just buff everyone. Perhaps a quickened Heal on yourself when soloing, or a quickened Mass Cure every now and then. You will be using Concordant Opposition a lot.


Good luck. If you have comments, or have tried/are trying/will try something along these lines, PLEASE let me know what works about it and what doesn't.

Two things I do not want left here (and my automatic responses to them as they will inevitably come)

1) Your build skills suck. Implies to me you think you are better than I am; this is my first try at posting any builds here. I am new to designing builds for people in general, you were new as well once.

2) Clerics cannot be DPS with melee. Implies you did not read the thread. Please do so then post a revised opinion. If you mean they cannot be DPS with melee and heal, you still did not read the comments: I said this is not meant to DPS and heal...


Other than that, post away!

[FlyingTurtle]

I thought of something similar.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=302376

The crowd has spoken, and I believe the verdict is: Gimp.

[Habreno]

I thought of something similar.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=302376

The crowd has spoken, and I believe the verdict is: Gimp.

Did not see this as searching sucks but although people thought it was gimp then, if better designed it may not be. This was inspired to me by Tukataw (the 16 sorc/2x/2x that ended up soloing pretty much anything; I am dearly sorry I forget the spelling of your name) and is generally in that style; solo capable at high levels.

However, nobody there explored TR/double TR/Completionist builds; that discussion was on a first-life. While on a first life it would be VERY difficult, in past-life builds, even not splashed, it can be a decent alternative to building a healing/casting Cleric and having to become a nannybot.

[unfiguroutable]

personal opinion is that drow are unsuited for anything besides caster. They are too squishy for battle cleric imo. Also outside of flavor i see no good reason to make a battle cleric. I have a level 11 battle cleric and it is just not tough enough, does not have a hight enough BAB, does not have a high enough to hit bonus, does not have a high enough AC, can't heal as well as a healing cleric...etc etc. IMO a well made cleric should be a healer first. Learn that then learn the other parts of your class when you have gear and and experience. I would never make another "battle cleric" I would make a cleric that healed. Not to say I would stand in the back and heal bot, because I wouldn't, but I would respect my primary roll as party/raid healer. in my search for great self supporting melee toons I have fallen in love with bards and rangers.

[Habreno]

I have a L20 Cleric that is a healer/caster type. He is nice to play but being just that is getting boring. Other than the fact that you have a Battle Cleric at L11 that does not have enough to-hit, BAB, AC, and healing power, I do not see anything about your build. Is he TRed at all? Do you have any tomes on him? What sort of gear do you have? What race are you? These are things which will make or break any Battlecleric build. Note that this build is NOT MEANT to heal anyone; it is meant to buff with SP, provide healing when possible, and it gives me an aura which regenerates. There is not a need for 43 continuous minutes of DM4. There is an aura, there are bursts, these both regenerate and are on the same counter as DM4.

And if you don't think Drow will work, suggest an alternate race aside from Human which I have done.

[Kahless_of_Cannith]

Regardless of race, what does this build contribute to a group? You admit you cannot be a functional healer, and yet your dps will never be anywhere near equal to an equally well-geared, well-played barb, fighter, etc. who is specced for dps even with all points into str and divine might.

Finally, why would anyone need the skill points? Concentration and balance would be the only obvious choices, with the possibility of intimi for mana regen.

A better battle-type build imho may be found here (keep in mind it is for a second life tr and kinda old) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=255694&highlight=samulos

[Meat-Head]

First of all, good luck. This is tricky to build right AND prolly harder to play right.

I have a capped pure cleric I want to TR into a melee cleric (prolly 2 ftr splash).

You don't lose a lot by splashing 1-2 fighter on this build. You gain Weapon Profs, badly needed feats, some HPs, and some to-hit.

Also, you don't mention it, but I'm guess you're going THF NOT TWF based on your stats. (not enuf dex). So, the link post about TWF Drow being gimp is not entirely relevant.

If you DO NOT want to be a healer other than yourself, I recommend a Pally. A high CHA pally drow can be great dps and self-heal very well. (see Junts Pally Guide, and look at the "advanced builds" link.)

I think you're a little too married to DM4. You'll need more to-hit. So, settle with DM3 and up STR or CON.

Horc, Helf, and Human seem better choices to me than Drow as long as you have 32+ builds.

You're right that this is easier with a TR.

[unfiguroutable]

if you are serious about a melee cleric I think a 32 point Horc with higher str would be better and maybe with a splash of fighter. Their is another thread about this right now and his build looks pretty good.

[unbongwah]

I'm not saying I think this is a good build, mind you; but if the idea is to be melee-focused, would you be willing to sacrifice lvl 9 spells & DM IV for something like this?


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Neutral Drow Female
(2 Fighter \ 2 Monk \ 16 Cleric)
Hit Points: 281
Spell Points: 860
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 12
Will: 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 23
Dexterity 16 18
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 10 12
Wisdom 8 12
Charisma 16 18

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (swap for Power Attack at higher level)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Cleric)


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 5 (Cleric)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Cleric)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Cleric)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 19 (Cleric)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Attack I
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Attack II
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage I
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage II
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might III
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery IV


I'm reasonably willing to bet that TWF w/rapiers + DM III > THF + DM IV, esp. with drow racial weapon enhs. You could drop the 2nd ftr lvl as well: lose a feat (prob. Empower) and +1 STR enh; gain lvl 9 spells.

[Habreno]

Yes, I'm planning on making one of those by TRing my clonk. Are you having a good time with the build? Probably go with 10-12 base wisdom half-orc. But that is a specialized battle cleric build, whereas this is what I call an advanced cleric build, which can offensive cast, heal and melee. Two different types of toons. Not going full wisdom frees up a ton of build points, but you pretty much lose your offensive casting abilities other than some wimpy but ok in some situations bladebarriers.

Was reading the thread linked http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=255694&highlight=samulos&page=2 and found this quote. If he's considering doing it, it's not something nobody will do and can't be too bad.


First of all, good luck. This is tricky to build right AND prolly harder to play right.

I have a capped pure cleric I want to TR into a melee cleric (prolly 2 ftr splash).

You don't lose a lot by splashing 1-2 fighter on this build. You gain Weapon Profs, badly needed feats, some HPs, and some to-hit.

Also, you don't mention it, but I'm guess you're going THF NOT TWF based on your stats. (not enuf dex). So, the link post about TWF Drow being gimp is not entirely relevant.

If you DO NOT want to be a healer other than yourself, I recommend a Pally. A high CHA pally drow can be great dps and self-heal very well. (see Junts Pally Guide, and look at the "advanced builds" link.)

I think you're a little too married to DM4. You'll need more to-hit. So, settle with DM3 and up STR or CON.

Horc, Helf, and Human seem better choices to me than Drow as long as you have 32+ builds.

You're right that this is easier with a TR.

Couple questions to fire back at you. Love your post BTW, this is EXACTLY the kind of feedback I need.

1) Would CLR18/PAL2 still qualify for DM4? I know you said I'm over attracted to it but it is a very viable option.

2) I would like to be a Cleric for the masses of buffs you can get through spells. The l8/l9 spells are not why I went 20 CLR originally; it was for the capstone with DI.

[Ilklr]

My personal opinion is that drow are unsuited for anything besides caster. They are too squishy for battle cleric imo.
I disagree. They only take a -2 con (believe me, I don't like - to con either). They can help relieve the pressure from MAD characters, and can be quite good for 28 pointers, depending on the build. Even on drow, you're likely to see 26+ con, which is not all that squishy.


Also outside of flavor i see no good reason to make a battle cleric.
Agreed. I was under the impression that this was a flavor build.

As for the OP: In the end, we play to have fun, and nobody can tell you how to do that. If this is something you'd have fun playing, go for it.

I personally wouldn't roll one; it seems like you're working awfully hard (+4 tomes, multiple TR, etc.) just to make a character viable. If I'm going to TR 2 or 3 times, I'll be bringing out the big guns.

Tome usage looks a little suspect, but perhaps I misunderstand your intentions.

Not to be too hard on you, but the fact that you even included those two posting stipulations implies bad things. If you expect people to tell you your build sucks, you're doomed from the start. I'm not saying it does, but I'd be wary of putting this much work into a build you might not feel 100% about.

Again, though, if you do feel strongly about this build, definitely have fun with it. Don't let anyone tell you what to do, or what not to do. If you go with it, let us know how it works out.

[Habreno]

I intended it as something that's both decently viable from 1-19 and still powerful at 20. Viability from 1-19 means you can cut out any +3/+4 tome in the build. The only truly necessary tome is +3 CHA if you want DM4 at L20. Any other +4 is optional, highly advised to do if you want to keep the build at L20 a while, but not necessary. If I were to roll one up with a completionist prior to it, I would definitively eat several +4 tomes and keep the build for ages. The +4s and +3s are not necessary if you are running to 20 just to get a Cleric Past Life in (and then you can even splash as L20 is not key, and thus the benefits from DI are nil as you are TRing again) but highly advised if not TRing.

I had stated that do not tell me my BUILDING SKILLS suck. I'm perfectly fine with hearing "this build sucks" if you tell me why and what to fix it!

Battle Cleric is not just flavor. If you have the gear from a few past lives and the plat for a few +2 tomes or are willing to drop the TP on a +2 Supreme Ability tome from the DDO store (however that is worded, I don't know) at L7, you are perfectly fine with rolling a Battle Cleric instead of a caster/healer Cleric just for the past life. I know that some people (stated in in-game chat a while back) have not done a Cleric past life yet on their Completionist journey because they don't want to play a heal class. This gives them an option for rolling a Cleric and avoiding major healing.

Also, at Unbongwah, I do not have Monk. Though I'm sure it's a viable alternative for a Battle-Cleric build, it would not work for me. However, seeing as L9 spells will be practically useless, it would work given Monk, and would probably work better than a pure CLR 20.

Thank you for your very informative post and sorry I originally missed it.

[Meat-Head]

Was reading the thread linked http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=255694&highlight=samulos&page=2 and found this quote. If he's considering doing it, it's not something nobody will do and can't be too bad.



Couple questions to fire back at you. Love your post BTW, this is EXACTLY the kind of feedback I need.

1) Would CLR18/PAL2 still qualify for DM4? I know you said I'm over attracted to it but it is a very viable option.

2) I would like to be a Cleric for the masses of buffs you can get through spells. The l8/l9 spells are not why I went 20 CLR originally; it was for the capstone with DI.


Fraid not. I just checked. DM IV requires 20 base charisma (initial, + level ups + tomes) AND pure cleric (lvl 20).

It's GREAT for damage. No question. In order to get 20 CHA tho, you prolly would wanna go Drow. Some say clerics can't DPS, but DM is pretty potent. Still, the to-hit will be a problem if you take power attack and settle with a lower strength. BUT, you could get away with PA AND DM 3 which is a net gain of 11 damage a swing.

The FTR levels get you haste booste which is BIG for DPS increase. A high-str cleric with DM3, power attack, and fighter haste boost will actually have tasty DPS. It's not going to be too far behind top notch.

Going 2 pally gives you some tasty stuff too tho. You can still do the DM3. You also get your CHA modifier added to ALL SAVES. This build would have high CHA, so... yeah. You also get the aura for +1 to AC and saves for everyone around you. AND 1 use of Lay on hands per rest. Pretty kewl. But, you lose the fighter haste boost. It's a straight-up DPS vs survivability choice. I've seen builds from founders that went both ways.

If you don't care about lvl 8 or 9 spells, you could splash a lot further. DM3 only requires 15 levels of Cleric. You could do 15 Cleric, 2 Pally, and 3 Ftr and get most all of this.

My build differs from this one in that I want to be able to raid heal IN ADDITION to melee. But, if you wanna be a secondary healer/self-healer you have LOTS more options.

BTW, pallys also get self-healing AND Divine Might- same as clerics. BUT, being 15 cleric you would be full rad serv. That's pretty kewl self AND grp healing WHILE meleeing.

Hope that helps.

[Habreno]

15CLR/2FTR/3PAL or the reverse 15CLR/2PAL/3FTR would also work.

Would you have any ideas on the level progression? 15 CLR/PAL/3FTR/PAL?


Also, what would that second PAL level gain you? I know a fourth FTR level would net another much needed feat, but a second PAL gets?

[Meat-Head]

I intended it as something that's both decently viable from 1-19 and still powerful at 20. Viability from 1-19 means you can cut out any +3/+4 tome in the build. The only truly necessary tome is +3 CHA if you want DM4 at L20. Any other +4 is optional, highly advised to do if you want to keep the build at L20 a while, but not necessary. If I were to roll one up with a completionist prior to it, I would definitively eat several +4 tomes and keep the build for ages. The +4s and +3s are not necessary if you are running to 20 just to get a Cleric Past Life in (and then you can even splash as L20 is not key, and thus the benefits from DI are nil as you are TRing again) but highly advised if not TRing.

I had stated that do not tell me my BUILDING SKILLS suck. I'm perfectly fine with hearing "this build sucks" if you tell me why and what to fix it!

Battle Cleric is not just flavor. If you have the gear from a few past lives and the plat for a few +2 tomes or are willing to drop the TP on a +2 Supreme Ability tome from the DDO store (however that is worded, I don't know) at L7, you are perfectly fine with rolling a Battle Cleric instead of a caster/healer Cleric just for the past life. I know that some people (stated in in-game chat a while back) have not done a Cleric past life yet on their Completionist journey because they don't want to play a heal class. This gives them an option for rolling a Cleric and avoiding major healing.

Also, at Unbongwah, I do not have Monk. Though I'm sure it's a viable alternative for a Battle-Cleric build, it would not work for me. However, seeing as L9 spells will be practically useless, it would work given Monk, and would probably work better than a pure CLR 20.

Thank you for your very informative post and sorry I originally missed it.

Honestly, I don't know why some ppl think clerics can't melee. Divine Might is beast.

I was thinking some more, and if you go ONLY 15 cleric, you get DM3, Rad Serv 2, and all the buffs you want. You only miss level 9 spells (no buffs there).

Then splash ftr (haste boost) and/or Pally for saves. But, I'd start with an 18 STR + if wanting to focus on melee. But, HPs are going to be a little low. No way around it. BUT, your self healing will be crazy good.

Also, if you wanna do damage, you need Power Attack.

Power attack+DM3+Ftr haste+18str (level ups here except for maybe 1 in Cha)+divine favor+divine power= DPS. Anyone who says otherwise is talking crazy. It may not be full on 20 barb or Kensai.. But it won't be too far behind AND will bring more to a group and will be more survivable.

BTW, if you got at least 4 levels of fighter, you can get Haste boost 2 for +5% speed.

It's certainly NOT cookie cutter, but it would work.

One downside: Most pugs will accept a cleric icon and assume they are getting Hjealz for the group. Just the way it is.

Possible Build

32 Horc

18
8
14
6
11
15

= Doable with a +2 Cha tome and 1 level up

OR

Dump wis at 8, put CHA at 16, now just need a +2 tome and some Exceptional Wis item + Enchancements to be able to cast level 8 Spells

8 wis + 6item = 14. +2 enchancements = 16 + 2 Exc Wis on DT or GS or whatev = Level 8 spells.

Either way it's doable.

After all of this, the quest is, why not just roll a pally?

Answer, I suppose, is Rad Serv II.

[Habreno]

Added the restrictions to the top post; would have been helpful in the beginning to do so as well...

I was chatting with guildmates: they had said that 2 Pal adds the CHA to saves. 2 Ftr gives the extra feat plus some other things. What would a third level of either give?


8 Wis would be difficult to pull off with casting. I went 12 WIS, a +6 item gets me the 18 I need for l8 spells. Then we have +3 from enhancements which we will take 2 of and a +2/+4 tome if we manage it. No exceptional needed, happy cleric.

10 WIS would work though.... I might reroll and do another version.

STR: 18 (requires 16 points)
DEX: 10 (0 points)
CON: 12 (6 points)
INT: 10 (0 points)
WIS: 8 (0 points)
cha: 16 (6 points)

Race: Drow

Only sad thing about going with 8 base WIS is I'll need a pot to even cast anything at low levels. 8 +6 item +2 enhancement +2 tome = 18, so it can work without exceptionals. Just difficult. And a low amount of SP.

[Meat-Head]

Added the restrictions to the top post; would have been helpful in the beginning to do so as well...

I was chatting with guildmates: they had said that 2 Pal adds the CHA to saves. 2 Ftr gives the extra feat plus some other things. What would a third level of either give?



3rd Pallys gets you immunity to disease, immunity to fear, and allies near you get bonuses to save vs fear. and it gives you some enhancement options like an extra LOH and others.

3rd Fighter gets you.. well nothing useful. :)

[ThePrincipal]

i made a 28 pt battle cleric, dwarf, with: 16/8/16/8/14/12, all lvl-ups into str.

pure cleric, no need to splash.

feats
1. greataxe
3. toughness
6. empower healing
9. extend (drop this for Power Attack around lvl 18)
12. ic:slashing
15. quicken
18. maximize

1. divine favor, power, and might will allow you to hit things. you an melee similar to a Pally without smites.
2. make the most of healing aura, less time spent casting heals means more time swinging.
3. mass heals centered on yourself, keeps group together and lets you stay in the front line while still pulling healing duty
4. some raids you will have to pull healbot duty, otherwise party will wipe. it's just the many raids are run in a robotic way and its nearly impossible to deaviate from established tactics

Drow could be interesting, Maybe you can make TWF work with Rapiers and weapon finese?

[Meat-Head]

Based on those, I'd prolly do a Drow with 18 St, 12 Con, and 16 CHA. Just make toughness enhancements a priority. In fact, this makes splashing fighter/pally all the more important. (Class toughness enchancements in addition to racials)

It also would prolly make me think splashing at least 2 pally for the saves would be a good idea. FWIW

[Habreno]

At 2 Above poster: what tier of DM are you using? I am aiming at 3; 4 if I go pure Cleric. With a 12 CHA are you using a +2 tome to get DM1?

[Meat-Head]

i made a 28 pt battle cleric, dwarf, with: 16/8/16/8/14/12, all lvl-ups into str.

pure cleric, no need to splash.

feats
1. greataxe
3. toughness
6. empower healing
9. extend (drop this for Power Attack around lvl 18)
12. ic:slashing
15. quicken
18. maximize

1. divine favor, power, and might will allow you to hit things. you an melee similar to a Pally without smites.
2. make the most of healing aura, less time spent casting heals means more time swinging.
3. mass heals centered on yourself, keeps group together and lets you stay in the front line while still pulling healing duty
4. some raids you will have to pull healbot duty, otherwise party will wipe. it's just the many raids are run in a robotic way and its nearly impossible to deaviate from established tactics

Drow could be interesting, Maybe you can make TWF work with Rapiers and weapon finese?


EXCEPT he wanted higher levels of Divine Might. harder to do that on a dorf unless you dump wis. Which you can.
Also, for meleeing, splashing ftr/pally just make more sense. Why waste a feat on Greataxe when you can get it PLUS a feat with either of the splashes. The build you list is fine as long as you wanna be a healer. He said he doesn't.

[FlyingTurtle]

i made a 28 pt battle cleric, dwarf, with: 16/8/16/8/14/12, all lvl-ups into str.

pure cleric, no need to splash.

feats
1. greataxe
3. toughness
6. empower healing
9. extend (drop this for Power Attack around lvl 18)
12. ic:slashing
15. quicken
18. maximize

1. divine favor, power, and might will allow you to hit things. you an melee similar to a Pally without smites.
2. make the most of healing aura, less time spent casting heals means more time swinging.
3. mass heals centered on yourself, keeps group together and lets you stay in the front line while still pulling healing duty
4. some raids you will have to pull healbot duty, otherwise party will wipe. it's just the many raids are run in a robotic way and its nearly impossible to deaviate from established tactics

Drow could be interesting, Maybe you can make TWF work with Rapiers and weapon finese?

Nice build, I might actually follow this one on my next cleric. Except I would push 16 wis, level ups in wis, and drop PA for Heighten.

[Habreno]

EXCEPT he wanted higher levels of Divine Might. harder to do that on a dorf unless you dump wis. Which you can.
Also, for meleeing, splashing ftr/pally just make more sense. Why waste a feat on Greataxe when you can get it PLUS a feat with either of the splashes. The build you list is fine as long as you wanna be a healer. He said he doesn't.

THANK YOU! +1 twice over to you for FINALLY getting at what I want with this!

So you think for a Drow with no past lives:

STR: 18
DEX: 10
CON: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 16

If I do that, I might go 3Pal/2Ftr/15Clr in that order. Get L1 spells at L6. Although this would push back DM3 to L20, that's 2 bonus. Not exactly game breaking but not exactly ideal either. Perhaps 2Pal/2Ftr/15Clr/Pal for level order to get DM3 at L19?

While I still recognize it being heavily tome-dependent and gear-dependent it would be doable on a first life. Just means another reroll which although isn't ideal I get 4 levels right off the bat so I don't have to bother with those levels. Probably going to end up going with the second leveling set and taking DM3 at L19. If I don't have a +2 CHA tome by then I will have the plat to acquire one.

And just to make a comment: If you want to give the thread a horrible rating, have the guts to say that you did it and say exactly why. Just because I have ideas that don't meld with what you think does not give you the right to give the thread a 1/5 star and have a valid reason for it. Just my two cents on that issue.

[Meat-Head]

THANK YOU! +1 twice over to you for FINALLY getting at what I want with this!

So you think for a Drow with no past lives:

STR: 18
DEX: 10
CON: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 16

If I do that, I might go 3Pal/2Ftr/15Clr in that order. Get L1 spells at L6. Although this would push back DM3 to L20, that's 2 bonus. Not exactly game breaking but not exactly ideal either. Perhaps 2Pal/2Ftr/15Clr/Pal for level order to get DM3 at L19?

While I still recognize it being heavily tome-dependent and gear-dependent it would be doable on a first life. Just means another reroll which although isn't ideal I get 4 levels right off the bat so I don't have to bother with those levels. Probably going to end up going with the second leveling set and taking DM3 at L19. If I don't have a +2 CHA tome by then I will have the plat to acquire one.

And just to make a comment: If you want to give the thread a horrible rating, have the guts to say that you did it and say exactly why. Just because I have ideas that don't meld with what you think does not give you the right to give the thread a 1/5 star and have a valid reason for it. Just my two cents on that issue.



Yeah, those stats and class splits make sense to me for your goals. I think you will find that the DPS ends up being pretty dang good here as long as you use your buffs and clickie abilities well. I guess going 3 pally and 1 ftr to begin with (veteran status) will do a couple things for you:

Start with toughness feat, LOHx2 (2nd via enhancement), and establish your build as A MELEE with other ppl early.

BTW You'll have 9 feats. Here's what I recommend:

Toughness
Power Attack
Extend (need for buffs)
Two handed fighting
Emp Healing (Req for Rad Serv)
Maximize (affects your Rad Serv Aura & Bursts)
Improved Two Handed Fighting
Imp Critical: Slashing
Toughness

You COULD swap the THF and ITHF for other things (MAYBE extra turns) and/or more toughness (you'll find yourself wanting hitpoints I imagine) The other feats tho, I wouldn't mess with.

ALso, remember, as will all Multi-class builds, you will feel "behind" in some ways as you level. The char will develop more slowly in general. You won't get the raise dead spell till like level 14. Early levels might mean self healing thru LOH, Wands, and even pots. But in the end, you should be fairly beast. Just be patient.

It's too bad a lot of people disregard Divine Might on a cleric. They only associate it with pallys. That's partially probably because fewer clerics use it. But someone would FLIP if they saw a pure melee build without power attack. It only adds 5 points of damage w/o enhancements on a one hander. Divine might3 will add 6 PLUS you'll have power attack. AND Divine Might doesn't reduce your to-hit! I mean, HELLO!

Have fun!

p.s. Weapon of choice = Falchion until/unless you get SOS or eSOS.. Or a Carnifex until you get Greensteel.

[unbongwah]

I guess if getting at least Divine Might III is one of your build goals, this won't work; but have you looked at any of the heavily-multiclassed cleric 12 builds out there? E.g., ftr 2 / pal 6 / cleric 12.

[Atree]

I'm currently TRing my THF battle-cleric into a TWF battle-cleric. My build sacrifices some dps for utility (I like to disable traps) so cannot afford the Cha for DM. Even so, the dps output is nothing to scoff at. Up to the mid lvls I was leading kill counts more often than not, and even at end-game you should be able to do 50-70% of the damage a pure fighter/barb dishes.

With DP You will have full BaB regardless of splashes, and with decent gear you should be able to hit most things on a 2 even with PA on. Might have to turn off PA in epics without a bard.

I started with 14 Con, ate a +2 tome and had ~420hp at cap before crafting a GS item. Once you get e 45hp con-op you become neigh un-killable (quickened heals, aura, regening sp and turns).

If you have 17 levels of cleric there is no reason you can't raid-heal. Sp pool is a tad shallow (I had 1500sp at cap) but gear can mitigate it to a great degree (bauble, SS ring, talisman, torc, con-op) and smart use of Radiant abilities give oodles of sp-free healing as long as the rest of the party are competent.

Soloing ability is quite impressive as well. You will likely not have the fastest completion times, but running elite Sins or DA should be a cakewalk with no resource use.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I wouldn't even consider using +4 tomes on a 28pt build. By the time you reach cap you should be able to get access to at least 32pt builds so GR or TR first before using hard-to-get tomes.

[Meat-Head]

I'm currently TRing my THF battle-cleric into a TWF battle-cleric. My build sacrifices some dps for utility (I like to disable traps) so cannot afford the Cha for DM. Even so, the dps output is nothing to scoff at. Up to the mid lvls I was leading kill counts more often than not, and even at end-game you should be able to do 50-70% of the damage a pure fighter/barb dishes.

With DP You will have full BaB regardless of splashes, and with decent gear you should be able to hit most things on a 2 even with PA on. Might have to turn off PA in epics without a bard.

I started with 14 Con, ate a +2 tome and had ~420hp at cap before crafting a GS item. Once you get e 45hp con-op you become neigh un-killable (quickened heals, aura, regening sp and turns).

If you have 17 levels of cleric there is no reason you can't raid-heal. Sp pool is a tad shallow (I had 1500sp at cap) but gear can mitigate it to a great degree (bauble, SS ring, talisman, torc, con-op) and smart use of Radiant abilities give oodles of sp-free healing as long as the rest of the party are competent.

Soloing ability is quite impressive as well. You will likely not have the fastest completion times, but running elite Sins or DA should be a cakewalk with no resource use.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I wouldn't even consider using +4 tomes on a 28pt build. By the time you reach cap you should be able to get access to at least 32pt builds so GR or TR first before using hard-to-get tomes.

Agree on the +4 tome thing. On a 28 pt, it's crazy talk.

Disagree on 50% dps tho.

18 Starting STR + Divine Might3 + Divine Power + Divine Favor + Power Attack + Fighter Haste Boost.. Heck. if he splashes pally, he's even got a smite or two. What will he lack DPS wise that a fighter would have? Little bit from wep focus stuff and some some higher levels of haste boost. Right? I dunno with buffs, I'm thinking more like 85% and I wouldn't be suprised if it was higher. Consider that divine favor and Divine might will add 9 damage and +3 to hit when he's capped. I don't even think divine favor is available in a clickie.. So... That's damage a fighter doesn't even have access to.

I'm not certain about 85%+ but I would be REAL interested if someone could do the math on this.

[Habreno]

The +4s are for if you have 2+ past lives with a serious indication of NOT TRing again.


I'm definitively going to download a planner here and play around with that last level. Probably going to progress 2PAL/2FTR via vet and then go 5-19 as Cleric for those 15 levels. For Level 20 I have choices. 3rd FTR may unlock a strength enhancement, 3rd PAL may unlock some things there, and 16CLR would unlock another few spell slots and a tiny bit more SP.

[unbongwah]

What will he lack DPS wise that a fighter would have?
Assuming we're talking pure THF Kensai: +4 dmg from WS & GWS, +2 dmg from Kensai Mastery, +2 from Weap Spec enhs, +1 to crit range, +30% attack speed from Haste Boost IV, +8 STR from Power Surge, and 10% double-strike from capstone.

So, yup, virtually no difference in DPS at all. :D

[Meat-Head]

The +4s are for if you have 2+ past lives with a serious indication of NOT TRing again.


I'm definitively going to download a planner here and play around with that last level. Probably going to progress 2PAL/2FTR via vet and then go 5-19 as Cleric for those 15 levels. For Level 20 I have choices. 3rd FTR may unlock a strength enhancement, 3rd PAL may unlock some things there, and 16CLR would unlock another few spell slots and a tiny bit more SP.


FWIW, 3rd pally gives you the fear immunity and extra LOH via APs.

3rd fighter gives you armor/shield dex enhancements that won't matter on this build. The only other thing 3rd fighter give you is Flanking Mastery enhancement if you choose it.

Fighter STR 2 requires 6 levels of FTR. So... yeah.
Not worth it. Extra Cleric or Pally level gives you more no question.

[Habreno]

And FTR STR 1 is Level 2?

[Meat-Head]

And FTR STR 1 is Level 2?

yessir

[Habreno]

Right. Now to download a planner and run this through it.

Even without a planner, at L20 I should have the following:

35-37 STR without a +4 tome and only one STR enhancement.
18 WIS well before I need to cast 8th level spells; I would have under 1k SP but should not be a problem if my first craft is something with Conc Op.
20 CON via +6 item and +2 tome; this obviously can be pushed higher.
26 + CHA. Plenty of turns.

[Habreno]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Haberno
Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(2 Fighter \ 3 Paladin \ 15 Cleric)
Hit Points: 282
Spell Points: 791
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 24
Reflex: 13
Will: 18

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 18 26 27
Dexterity 10 10 10
Constitution 12 14 14
Intelligence 10 12 12
Wisdom 8 10 12
Charisma 16 18 20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7 <- preferred for skill points. I would definitively hold on leveling to 8 until I got this.
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 8 <- Sooner the better.
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 8 <-Sooner the better.
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 8 <-Sooner the better.
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 8 <-At least by L19, but sooner the better.
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 20 <-If obtained. Not that big a deal.

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 0 0 0
Bluff 3 5 5
Concentration 1 2 9
Diplomacy 3 5 5
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle 5 16.5 16.5
Heal -1 1 3
Hide 0 0 0
Intimidate 7 27.5 27.5
Jump 4 8 8
Listen -1 1 3
Move Silently 0 0 0
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 0 1 1
Search 0 1 3
Spot -1 1 3
Swim 4 8 8
Tumble n/a n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a n/a

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Good
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Drow Spell Resistance
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Smite Evil
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 2 (Paladin)
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Grace
Feat: (Automatic) Lay on Hands


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 5 (Cleric)
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might I


Level 10 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I


Level 11 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Silver Flame Exorcism
Enhancement: Follower of the Silver Flame
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning III


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma II


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning IV


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I


Level 17 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV


Level 18 (Cleric)


Level 19 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might III


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health
Feat: (Automatic) Fear Immunity
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
Enhancement: Improved Concentration III
Enhancement: Improved Concentration IV
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II




There is something I ran through. What would you improve?

I would not take the enhancements like so, I was just working on what I knew I needed. DM1-3, Cleric PrE would all be taken ASAP. Feats I tried to order in order of obtainment. While that PAL level comes at an odd time (1,2,20) I wanted DM3 quickly. Since that's 15 levels and I wanted the attacking power of the fighter/paladin combo quickly for running quests I put it at the end; level order can be improved.

Also, the L18 Feat I totally skipped. Perhaps Power Critical if I didn't grab it already? And switch ITHF for a second Toughness?

[Atree]

Agree on the +4 tome thing. On a 28 pt, it's crazy talk.

Disagree on 50% dps tho.

18 Starting STR + Divine Might3 + Divine Power + Divine Favor + Power Attack + Fighter Haste Boost.. Heck. if he splashes pally, he's even got a smite or two. What will he lack DPS wise that a fighter would have? Little bit from wep focus stuff and some some higher levels of haste boost. Right? I dunno with buffs, I'm thinking more like 85% and I wouldn't be suprised if it was higher. Consider that divine favor and Divine might will add 9 damage and +3 to hit when he's capped. I don't even think divine favor is available in a clickie.. So... That's damage a fighter doesn't even have access to.

I'm not certain about 85%+ but I would be REAL interested if someone could do the math on this.

As was mentioned above, fighters have access to various feats and enhancements that boost to-hit as well as dmg. They can keep PA on even against epic bosses you might have to turn it off, and even then struggle to hit on a 2. Then there is gear, such as Madstone boots, that a fighter would wear most of the time but a smart cleric will avoid in most cases. Finally you have to account for the fact that in a well played party the fighter never has to stop swinging, while the cleric will still need to pause for healing, rebuffing and other spellcasting.

So even if build-wise the apriory damage potential is equal, the fighter will, in practice, dish out more.

[Ilklr]

As was mentioned above, fighters have access to various feats and enhancements that boost to-hit as well as dmg. They can keep PA on even against epic bosses you might have to turn it off, and even then struggle to hit on a 2. Then there is gear, such as Madstone boots, that a fighter would wear most of the time but a smart cleric will avoid in most cases. Finally you have to account for the fact that in a well played party the fighter never has to stop swinging, while the cleric will still need to pause for healing, rebuffing and other spellcasting.

So even if build-wise the apriory damage potential is equal, the fighter will, in practice, dish out more.
And let's see a cleric power surge. Regardless, nobody here (as far as I know) is saying clerics can't do damage. But as a pure dps build, they lag quite a bit behind, which makes it inherently a flavor build. There is nothing wrong with that, I have quite a few myself. I just want to make sure that nobody is fooling themselves about the kind of dps this character will have.

[Ilklr]

It's too bad a lot of people disregard Divine Might on a cleric. They only associate it with pallys. That's partially probably because fewer clerics use it. But someone would FLIP if they saw a pure melee build without power attack. It only adds 5 points of damage w/o enhancements on a one hander. Divine might3 will add 6 PLUS you'll have power attack. AND Divine Might doesn't reduce your to-hit! I mean, HELLO!
Is anyone saying Divine Might is a bad idea? DM is one of the things that make this viable. Still though, it seems like a lot of work (heavy tomage + possible TR + heavy gear) just to be decent dps, particularly if we're denying that this is a flavor build. If you're going to put this much work into a build, and claim it as a non-flavor dps build, why not start with a higher base dps output, and THEN tome/gear/TR?

Again, I'm not saying that this build will have horrible dps. I know it will do ok. But the truth is, if I have one dps slot available, and I see a fighter, barb, monk, sorc, and cleric applying, guess who isn't getting the slot.

I actually have some cleric flavor builds, and of course they all take divine might.

[Ilklr]

As was mentioned above, fighters have access to various feats and enhancements that boost to-hit as well as dmg. They can keep PA on even against epic bosses you might have to turn it off, and even then struggle to hit on a 2. Then there is gear, such as Madstone boots, that a fighter would wear most of the time but a smart cleric will avoid in most cases. Finally you have to account for the fact that in a well played party the fighter never has to stop swinging, while the cleric will still need to pause for healing, rebuffing and other spellcasting.

So even if build-wise the apriory damage potential is equal, the fighter will, in practice, dish out more.
Also, I think it might be a bit like comparing apples to oranges. Let's be a bit more fair and compare a cleric to a pally. Paladins twf. Point paladin. Paladins get smite. Point paladin. Paladins get divine sacrifice. Point paladin. Paladins get Holy Sword. Point paladin. Paladins get LOH. Point paladin. Clerics have more buffs. Point cleric. Paladins have martial prof. Are we still keeping score?

[Natashaelle]

While I still recognize it being heavily tome-dependent and gear-dependent it would be doable on a first life.

Yeah, pretty much all mêlée clerics are heavily tome-dependent and gear-dependent. Welcome to the grind !! :)

...


BTW You'll have 9 feats. Here's what I recommend:

Toughness
Power Attack
Extend (need for buffs)
Two handed fighting
Emp Healing (Req for Rad Serv)
Maximize (affects your Rad Serv Aura & Bursts)
Improved Two Handed Fighting
Imp Critical: Slashing
Toughness

Why the second toughness ? This is fairly pointless on a Cleric.

I would suggest Greater 2HF instead.

[Tumarek]

Imho 12 starting con is just a no go... 16 or 18... nothing less. As a healer you dont want to die and as battleclric you dont want to sit back -> you need every single HP you can get. Dwarfs are a far better choice. Bonus to great axe, constitution and such.

All you nice DPS wont do anything if you have to run everytime you get some aggro. And dying alot just gets us Battleclrics a bad name :)

You can pull of 14 const on a Fvs with all the bonus thoughness enhancements but 12 con on a drow cleric wont be enough.

So if you dont have Horc's dwarf or human... and a battlecleric with a 28 point build is not a great idea. You need all the the stats you can get, try going for something less stat intensive till you get the 32.

Also mass heal is your friend... a cleric lower then 17 will be hard to pull off... imho.

[Atree]

And let's see a cleric power surge. Regardless, nobody here (as far as I know) is saying clerics can't do damage. But as a pure dps build, they lag quite a bit behind, which makes it inherently a flavor build. There is nothing wrong with that, I have quite a few myself. I just want to make sure that nobody is fooling themselves about the kind of dps this character will have.

A properly built, equally geared battle-cleric should have circa 70% of the dps of a pure dps build, while being far more survivable, and still retaining full raid-healing capability.


Is anyone saying Divine Might is a bad idea? DM is one of the things that make this viable. Still though, it seems like a lot of work (heavy tomage + possible TR + heavy gear) just to be decent dps, particularly if we're denying that this is a flavor build. If you're going to put this much work into a build, and claim it as a non-flavor dps build, why not start with a higher base dps output, and THEN tome/gear/TR?

Again, I'm not saying that this build will have horrible dps. I know it will do ok. But the truth is, if I have one dps slot available, and I see a fighter, barb, monk, sorc, and cleric applying, guess who isn't getting the slot.

I actually have some cleric flavor builds, and of course they all take divine might.

I'm not sure what your definition of flavor is, but to me that definitely warrants a spot in my party, especially if going for a challenging quest/raid where the possibility of a wipe is non-negligible. If things go pear-shaped the cleric has a better chance of rescuing things than a barb/fighter.

If the quest is not challenging (at lvl on normal) then taking the first to apply is my preferred approach. The icon next to their name tells you very little about their actual playing ability. My cleric can out dps most barbarians and fighters in the mid levels. This is not because she is uber, but more a statement of just how much difference twink gear and quest knowledge make regardless of build choices. I still encounter sub 200hp, no-fort, no self-sufficiency melees in the Vale, and have even seen them in Amrath.


Also, I think it might be a bit like comparing apples to oranges. Let's be a bit more fair and compare a cleric to a pally. Paladins twf. Point paladin. Paladins get smite. Point paladin. Paladins get divine sacrifice. Point paladin. Paladins get Holy Sword. Point paladin. Paladins get LOH. Point paladin. Clerics have more buffs. Point cleric. Paladins have martial prof. Are we still keeping score?

I fully agree about the fruitiness of such a comparison. Clerics have much wider options available to them, and to balance this lose out in direct dps when compared to a dedicated melee class (you forgot to include the huge dmg boost of KoC vs devils). However consider that a paladin, barb or fighter soloing elite Sins is a notable achievement, while any half-baked cleric with a torc can waltz through there with zero resource use.

[Ilklr]

Imho 12 starting con is just a no go... 16 or 18... nothing less.
I disagree. Believe me, I love me some hp too, but MAD characters tend to have to give some up. You're still looking at 24+ con, which isn't too bad. 12 con on a drow is pretty much par for the course. I am a bit curious as to why he's going drow on a THF build. Maybe it was mentioned earlier in the posts, but oh well.

HP:
20 Fighter
30 Paladin
120 Cleric
20 HD
44 Toughness (looks like he'll roll 2 toughness feats)
30 Toughness enhancements
140 Con (likely more)
45 Green steel
30 GFL
20 Minos
499

[Natashaelle]

Also mass heal is your friend... a cleric lower then 17 will be hard to pull off... imho.

Mass Heal is useful, but it's not a requirement.

The exact ratio of mêlée versus healing on a battle cleric is a matter of player choice not a priori optimisation questions, and getting that balance exactly right for the purposes of one's playing style is a fairly delicate business.

I've played mêlée-focused battle cleric with 28 points (my main, currently 36-pointer though ;)), and whilst it's true that you get forced into ability score compromises that are far less than ideal, it's certainly do-able.

OP may need to TR the toon, or GR when 32 points are unlocked, to make the most of it -- but also to respec and rebalance once he has a better idea of how the toon works in actual play, rather than in theory. Particularly concerning the question of whether he's happy with the mêlée/magic balance that it provides ... :)

[Ilklr]

A properly built, equally geared battle-cleric should have circa 70% of the dps of a pure dps build, while being far more survivable, and still retaining full raid-healing capability.



I'm not sure what your definition of flavor is, but to me that definitely warrants a spot in my party, especially if going for a challenging quest/raid where the possibility of a wipe is non-negligible. If things go pear-shaped the cleric has a better chance of rescuing things than a barb/fighter.

If the quest is not challenging (at lvl on normal) then taking the first to apply is my preferred approach. The icon next to their name tells you very little about their actual playing ability. My cleric can out dps most barbarians and fighters in the mid levels. This is not because she is uber, but more a statement of just how much difference twink gear and quest knowledge make regardless of build choices. I still encounter sub 200hp, no-fort, no self-sufficiency melees in the Vale, and have even seen them in Amrath.



I fully agree about the fruitiness of such a comparison. Clerics have much wider options available to them, and to balance this lose out in direct dps when compared to a dedicated melee class (you forgot to include the huge dmg boost of KoC vs devils). However consider that a paladin, barb or fighter soloing elite Sins is a notable achievement, while any half-baked cleric with a torc can waltz through there with zero resource use.
I mostly agree with this. Perhaps I've been operating on a false assumption? It was my understanding that he was pretty much dumping all healing ability for melee. If this is not correct, I apologize, and his healing would definitely make up for any dps loss.

Maybe I was thinking of another build, but I'm pretty sure he'd mentioned early on that he was not at all a healer build.

[Natashaelle]

A properly built, equally geared battle-cleric should have circa 70% of the dps of a pure dps build, while being far more survivable, and still retaining full raid-healing capability.

Only in the particular style of battle cleric that you're talking about. The entire concept is a balancing act of various combat abilities (not just DPS) and healing, and not every balance will lead to the above.

Survivability is OTOH a key concept here, I strongly agree with that :)

[Meat-Head]

I mostly agree with this. Perhaps I've been operating on a false assumption? It was my understanding that he was pretty much dumping all healing ability for melee. If this is not correct, I apologize, and his healing would definitely make up for any dps loss.

Maybe I was thinking of another build, but I'm pretty sure he'd mentioned early on that he was not at all a healer build.


Some good things have been mentioned in the last several posts.

First, he didn't want to be a healer. BUT, he's gonna have what 15 levels of cleric? He'll be able to heal just fine IF HE CHOOSES TO. Not raid heal (well maybe a backup) but, he can heal in a party situation prolly just fine. Don't forget that he'll be using auras and burst healing for free while swinging shoulder-shoulder with melee.

I suppose when you count in healing time, then the 70% dps figure is pretty accurate. Pure side-by-side beatdown would be closer tho.

As far as "this is a flavor build" goes... I mean, I guess so. But, consider this:

If, while healing, a cleric w/ fighter splash can even pull out 51% of the DPS of a pure fighter or mana sponge barb, shouldn't you ditch the barb and get TWO cleric/fighters? The party gets a net gain! At 70% dps the gain is much higher!

One could make the argument that these helpless-on-their-own DPSers are really just for party "flavor". If you were personally running in the party in RL (I know, a little weird) wouldn't you want 2 70% DPSers that could keep you alive or raise you from the dead rather than "me swing fast and hard" guy?

As to hitpoints, He could actually squeeze another toughness in if he wanted to. But, as was pointed out, he can get fairly high anyway. Remember barb-minded peeps, he doesn't have to wait for other hjealerz to react. :)

BTW, one of the reasons I am into this thread is that it's helping me to think about issues regarding my soon to TR into a Horc 18/2 cleric toon. But, the OP doesn't have Horc, Helf, or 32 point builds yet. He'll certainly adjust when he has access to those things.

[Habreno]

If anyone was looking for what I have it's in the OP. To repost it, I have Drow and Veteran status unlocked. Nothing else. I have Vale and Assault on Stomreach for my two packs. Nothing else.

While 32 point builds/HOrc/HElf may be better for those who have them, I don't and quite particularially like my build as it lies. Haberno on Argonessen; he may get another reroll if I don't like how he's progressing.