Daggers: Why would anyone use them?

[Zachski]

I mean, seriously. Even for a Rogue.

Price? There's better "cheap" weapons out there. While I know that most of the damage tends to come from the weapon mods, there's other weapons that are just as cheap... but better!

Range. Daggers have very little range. In fact, by the time you can actually hit an enemy with it as a Rogue, you've probably bumped into the enemy and alerted them to your presence, thus nullifying why you're using them in the first place.

Light offhand weapon? Short sword is better in every single way if you're going piercing.

Flavor? Probably the only reason. And even then, it's not very good.

And yet Jeets, the very first character everyone sees in the game, is shown wielding twin daggers.

[Greyleaf]

The Assassin prestige should get some bonus to use daggers, I think. I play an Assassin at the moment and I'd like to use daggers, but like you said, I can't find any reason to.

[NaturalHazard]

I mean, seriously. Even for a Rogue.

Price? There's better "cheap" weapons out there. While I know that most of the damage tends to come from the weapon mods, there's other weapons that are just as cheap... but better!

Range. Daggers have very little range. In fact, by the time you can actually hit an enemy with it as a Rogue, you've probably bumped into the enemy and alerted them to your presence, thus nullifying why you're using them in the first place.

Light offhand weapon? Short sword is better in every single way if you're going piercing.

Flavor? Probably the only reason. And even then, it's not very good.

And yet Jeets, the very first character everyone sees in the game, is shown wielding twin daggers.

well at least they are better than light hammers...............................

[Gremmlynn]

The same reason people use scepters, casting mods.

Really, even in PnP the only reason I ever carried one was because the DM caused bad things to happen when one tried to use a battle axe to remove a stirge from another party member's face.

[Ganolyn]

The only daggers I use are dual Ancient Vulkoorim Daggers.

[unfiguroutable]

my wife had a flavor rogue that was finess and carried a huge bag of daggers...the best weapon...maybe not but she was able the make up for her low str by hitting offten with them. it was mostly a trap monkey. was back before any mods or updates.

[NaturalHazard]

my wife had a flavor rouge that was finess and carried a huge bag of daggers...the best weapon...maybe not but she was able the make up for her low str by hitting offten with them. it was mostly a trap monkey. was back before any mods or updates.

flavoured eye make up? ok I wish I didnt ask.

[Aerendil]

+5 metalline of pure good dagger = 50+k.

+5 metalline of pure good shortsword = 300+ k.
+5 metalline of pure good rapier or khopesh = zomg, don't even ask, if you can even find one.

Considering on the fights where this weapon is necessary are few and far between, for a cash-strapped Rogue - the dagger is a viable choice.
Especially as their dps isn't so much from base damage/crits, but from sneak damage. They can hit for 100+ with a wet noodle if it came to it.

/shrug

[NaturalHazard]

+5 metalline of pure good dagger = 50+k.

+5 metalline of pure good shortsword = 300+ k.
+5 metalline of pure good rapier or khopesh = zomg, don't even ask, if you can even find one.

Considering on the fights where this weapon is necessary are few and far between, for a cash-strapped Rogue - the dagger is a viable choice.
Especially as their dps isn't so much from base damage/crits, but from sneak damage. They can hit for 100+ with a wet noodle if it came to it.

/shrug

thing is I can get a +3 +4 holy burst silver and cold iron rapier and still have money left over compared to the price of a +5 metalline pure good rapier.

[Aerendil]

thing is I can get a +3 +4 holy burst silver and cold iron rapier and still have money left over compared to the price of a +5 metalline pure good rapier.

They're even harder to find most of the time. At least on Cannith, can't speak for other servers.
Just checked AH for silver weaponry under dagger, and all martial weapons.
Saw a +4 ghost touch silver of pure good hand axe (going for 750k), and that was it that could qualify as a boss beater in all martial weapons.

Again, +5 mopg dagger for 50k? Yep. Problem solved.

Not saying it's a permanent solution. Should probably work on getting something better, or craft a min2 or lit2 eventually - but for most, yeah, it's fine.

[LOOON375]

Why would somebody not use them?!?!?

I would complement a player in game if I saw them using daggers...........since all I mostly see are Khopesh's.

I just started a Bard and he is going to use two handed staff's. Why you ask? Because it's different.

Once again I guess people can't play this game at all unless they only use a certain few weapon types.

[LazarusPossum]

Range. Daggers have very little range. In fact, by the time you can actually hit an enemy with it as a Rogue, you've probably bumped into the enemy and alerted them to your presence, thus nullifying why you're using them in the first place.

Exception: Throwing daggers (especially returning throwing daggers) have as much range as my longbow, but fly straighter than lobbed grenade-type weapons. Easy to whittle down archers with when backed up around a corner, and you never run out of returning daggers.

[NaturalHazard]

They're even harder to find most of the time. At least on Cannith, can't speak for other servers.
Just checked AH for silver weaponry under dagger, and all martial weapons.
Saw a +4 ghost touch silver of pure good hand axe (going for 750k), and that was it that could qualify as a boss beater in all martial weapons.

Again, +5 mopg dagger for 50k? Yep. Problem solved.

Not saying it's a permanent solution. Should probably work on getting something better, or craft a min2 or lit2 eventually - but for most, yeah, it's fine.

i guess I should count myself lucky im not on cannith then?

[gingie]

In my rogue's 1st life he used daggers almost exclusively until he started crafting greensteel. They were so much cheaper to purchase it was ridiculous. And many of us forget what it was like when we had that 1st toon who was always broke after regearing every few levels. And while they aren't the preferred weapon for DPS by any means, a rogue's true DPS comes in backstabs, so the damage sacrificed from other weapons just doesn't add up all that much.

I also agree with the poster who just likes to see something different from time to time. If we all wield the same weapons and build the same toons, then the wide variety in characters that makes this game fun for many of us is ruined.

[Zachski]

Exception: Throwing daggers (especially returning throwing daggers) have as much range as my longbow, but fly straighter than lobbed grenade-type weapons. Easy to whittle down archers with when backed up around a corner, and you never run out of returning daggers.

DDO considers throwing daggers and regular daggers to be two different weapon types, so I will too :-/

Returning Throwing Daggers are useful. Regular daggers are not.

In PnP, what made daggers useful was being able to throw them or use them as melee weapons.

[Hambo]

I mean, seriously. Even for a Rogue.

Price? There's better "cheap" weapons out there. While I know that most of the damage tends to come from the weapon mods, there's other weapons that are just as cheap... but better!

Range. Daggers have very little range. In fact, by the time you can actually hit an enemy with it as a Rogue, you've probably bumped into the enemy and alerted them to your presence, thus nullifying why you're using them in the first place.

Light offhand weapon? Short sword is better in every single way if you're going piercing.

Flavor? Probably the only reason. And even then, it's not very good.

And yet Jeets, the very first character everyone sees in the game, is shown wielding twin daggers.

Give me a seeker +10 dagger (if it exists) to complement my vorpal longsword anytime :D

[sirgog]

The only daggers I use are dual Ancient Vulkoorim Daggers.

Epic Ancient Vulkoorim Daggers are insane.

If you fluke the shard, Epic Flint is quite a reasonable substitute for a Lit 2 to throw on an alt.

[hityawithastick]

Daggers look cooler.

Also, I can hit for 30~40 on a sneak attack by kicking a troll in the crotch. At level 6. It really doesn't matter what weapon I use--I once ran an entire Gwylan's using a +2 returning shuriken from close range.

[SardaofChaos]

Daggers can also be used as offhand items for wiz/sorcs, if you find one with a good enchantment on it. Not like you were really going to stab anything anyways, so the attack penalties are harmless. It's a good way to do one of two things:
1) Keep bonus spell points while switching to a wand and back for whatever purpose.
2) Have two buffs going at once from primary hand and off hand.

[KillEveryone]

I think that if you have enough hide and move silently skills, have the assassin PrE, and use a dagger, you should be able to get in a sneak attack without detection or even get in a attack while still in sneak mode and not get detected.

[LazarusPossum]

I think that if you have enough hide and move silently skills, have the assassin PrE, and use a dagger, you should be able to get in a sneak attack without detection or even get in a attack while still in sneak mode and not get detected.

Not to mention being able to assassinate barrels and crates without coming out of sneak mode...

[krud]

usually it's price and easy availability that would make me want to use them. They've got a decent crit range for someone who is pierce specced. Smiting and banishing daggers can be picked up cheap off the AH. Use them for a few levels, and then sell them when you've outgrown them. Met/pg daggers were my rogue's first boss beaters. The lower base damage vs a rapier is fairly insignificant for a rogue, especially considering it comes at 10 times less cost. why not?

[Chai]

They make great cheap offhand weapons when you can find the effects you want on them, banishing, disruption, and when you find a good one, its still a decent weapon. Ive got +5 holy greater construct bane and +5 holy silver greater evil outsider bane daggers.

[yawumpus]

thing is I can get a +3 +4 holy burst silver and cold iron rapier and still have money left over compared to the price of a +5 metalline pure good rapier.

But a rogue does roughly equal damage with a +1 better (+4/+5) holy burst silver dagger.
The DR breaking gives [back] 15 points (on normal more if harder)
The hit itself gives manyd6 (50% on Harry and other devils etc. 100% on DQ (if she's tanked, otherwise don't go near her)
the weapon itself gives about the same, less 2.5% of base+magic+strength (for harry, etc) and 5% (for DQ)

It also is a light weapon (no issue for off hand use.

They usually are a bad choice. On the other hand, once everybody else has written them off, buy them cheap when they work just fine. Did you just pull a good dagger or something?

[Angelus_dead]

I mean, seriously. Even for a Rogue.

Price? There's better "cheap" weapons out there. While I know that most of the damage tends to come from the weapon mods, there's other weapons that are just as cheap... but better!
1. The downward differential between a shortsword and dagger is minimal. If the magic effects on the available dagger are superior in even the tiniest way, that makes it the better choice.
2. Not everyone is proficient in a shortsword. If you're a Cleric, Silver/LOB FVS, Wizard, or Sorcerer, then a dagger is the most-damaging 1h weapon that you're proficient in. (Obviously elf race, Master's Touch, or Sovereign AP can change that, but those aren't always available)

A dagger is more damaging than a heavy mace in typical situations.


Range. Daggers have very little range. In fact, by the time you can actually hit an enemy with it as a Rogue, you've probably bumped into the enemy and alerted them to your presence
That's just false. A dagger has no less range than other weapons you could have in a hand.

[donfilibuster]

One may assume that weapons in ddo need all be efficient. Truth is simple weapons are simple.
Simple weapons exist so you can have a build that is not proficient in martial weapons, mostly as a tradeoff.

There has been people wondering why there's so many, um, non-optimal weapons and this is the reason.
Like clerics, who are limited to a weapon of faith, yet can wield simple weapons because anyone can.

As for how many, well, on each list of simple and martial weapons there's supposed to be a selection of pierce, slash and bludgeon weapons.
Thus we have the dagger, which is the simple weapon that is piercing.
So you can speak about the shortsword being the off-hand piercer of choice because it is a martial weapon.

The same goes on the martial list. The light hammer is often quoted as being useless yet it's the only martial off-hand bludgeon.
This has nothing to do with us being able to make builds and specialize on optimal weapons.

We have lots of ways to gain martial weapon proficiency, the simple weapons are not meant to be used over a martial weapon at all.
Yet having the choice of proficiency is the whole point of having customization to begin with.
Optimization, as it turns out, is entirely a different monster.

Also note a lot of the things that don't make sense about weapon types is that ddo cut off a lot of functionality.
Weapons like the morning star are supposed to be both bludgeon and pierce, among the various dual type weapons.
Weapons like the sickle are supposed to have bonuses to combat maneouvers like trip.
Exotic weapons in general have none of their advantages in ddo and are rather poorly done.
Exotic weapons do not mean foreign weapons, they are weapons you need to take special training (PnP text).

Some would just want to see less weapons on the loot tables to lessen the chance of junk.
Yet the sad truth is the less used weapons are meant for NPCs, the sort that die to monsters often.
If the weapon had been any good it would not end up in a chest because the wielder would have lived to take it back home.
But X'endrik has had enough of the 'survival of the fittest', Stormreach patrons seem to be finally persuaded to bring in some much needed crafting tech very soon.

[Grenada]

On my 14th level fighter, i use chill shard for a throwing weapon (it returns in case u didn't know). Given that i only ever range enemies on cliffs and the like, it really helps keep general costs down (talk to any ranger without an epic level alt and they'll probably be asking u for some arrows).

[Zorth]

I think that if you have enough hide and move silently skills, have the assassin PrE, and use a dagger, you should be able to get in a sneak attack without detection or even get in a attack while still in sneak mode and not get detected.

Spot on. Daggers are easier to conceal and monsters cannot see them, also the ease that is required to use one is unmatched by any other weapon for such a purpose that is a sneak attack or attacking.

I would like to see the game move toward rogues being able to use the shadows more effectively. A rogue using a dagger is more concealed. Quick kill while other monsters are not looking then drag the dead monster into the shadows. No sound, no evidence= Stay hidden.

[Jiirix]

I use a banishing dagger of pure good on my cleric, best pierce crit range without -4 to hit and it was cheap too.
There is a banishing SILVER dagger of pure good at the ah in thelanis for 200k at the moment (at least it was yesterday) If I had a rogue with imp crit pierce I had bought it right away. If it was a shortsword or even rapier I am sure it wouldn't be sold on the ah. Why would one use a banishing silver dager of pure good... :)
Using a keen dagger of smiting on my wizard now and then.

[Alabore]

In my rogue's 1st life he used daggers almost exclusively until he started crafting greensteel.

So did my halfling rogue/ranger - before I got a Keen/PG rapier, and had it ice-bursted a while ago.

Before you get imp crit feats, daggers are actually nice; you can easily get an elemental/PG dagger at a fraction of the price you'd pay for a rapier.
My halfling used to wield twin shock daggers before the TWF/sneak tweak, and it was a beauty to behold in action.

My elven assassin uses daggers because it's easier to juggle them around without getting an oversize penalty to hit.
She's usually wielding a wounding/paralysing/banishing/smiting dagger in her main hand, and a cursespewing of backstabbing as her off-hand.
But, really, with Assassination, she could wield a +1 Thundering Pom-Pom of Shattermantle, and she'd be equally deadly...

Of course they are relatively low level - and I haven't fitted imp crit in, yet.




Give me a seeker +10 dagger (if it exists) to complement my vorpal longsword anytime :D

My elven rog/rng got one.
Vorpal scimitar and a +10 seeker dagger of maiming.

[licho]

Daggers are awesome, especcially when one is of Spell Penetracion and the second one +n to favored school, and u r plaing caster.

[bryanmeerkat]

Why would somebody not use them?!?!?

I would complement a player in game if I saw them using daggers...........since all I mostly see are Khopesh's.

I just started a Bard and he is going to use two handed staff's. Why you ask? Because it's different.

Once again I guess people can't play this game at all unless they only use a certain few weapon types.


Yay , your different like how all goths are individual , thats why we group them alltogether.

And yeah you do need to be as maxed out as you can be if you want to play the game , otherwise you are not playing the game you are just watching those who are maxed out play the game while you run along behind them .

[Lleren]

Well, pre-crafting you could often get good mods very inexpensively on Daggers. After Crafting, likely not so much.

I leveled my Rogue on Cannith with Shortswords and Daggers mainly. Now he uses Greensteel Rapiers primarily, but after the second time around of the Crystal Cove event he'll have a few shortswords again =D

Main other reason, Flavor. Being "different" is enough reason for many folks to choose "substandard" weapons or builds.


Yay , your different like how all goths are individual , thats why we group them alltogether.
Go to any event of any social subgroup, and you'll need a program to tell folks apart.
Mix 'em together with the general population and some groups stand out.

[Samadhi]

well at least they are better than light hammers...............................

This is a relevant point. There are a lot of weapons worse than daggers.

That said, I have made flavor decisions before, and likely will again. My biggest issue with daggers is actually their reach more than their stats.

[gorloch]

Only two reasons why I use them. One as an offhanded weapon for my caster. Second is as an offhand weapon on my dex based rogue. What difference does a w/p dagger make when one really isn't trying to do damage with it?


PIXA

[Wizzly_Bear]

Why? Why not?!

Skiver

Vulkoorim

Seeker 10

Crit range effects

Proficiency

Potency

Clickies

Et cetera

[Aeneas]

All one handed weapons have the same hit-box detection range regardless of size.

This was tested extensively years ago and i don't believe anything has changed.


If i remember correctly it was tested by Mr. Cow in ataraxias haven by beating on scrags.

[azrael4h]

Why would somebody not use them?!?!?

I would complement a player in game if I saw them using daggers...........since all I mostly see are Khopesh's.

I just started a Bard and he is going to use two handed staff's. Why you ask? Because it's different.

Once again I guess people can't play this game at all unless they only use a certain few weapon types.

You will Khopesh or you will die!

;)

[Tunst]

The same reason people use scepters, casting mods.

Really, even in PnP the only reason I ever carried one was because the DM caused bad things to happen when one tried to use a battle axe to remove a stirge from another party member's face.

that is when you respond "I do not have the feat cleave, i could not have hit him."
i used this logic when smashing a spider with my tower shield, and he told me i managed to break the bar, and owe a large amount of money.
:D

[Postumus]

And yeah you do need to be as maxed out as you can be if you want to play the game , otherwise you are not playing the game you are just watching those who are maxed out play the game while you run along behind them .


I couldn't disagree more. This game is easy enough as it is. The reason some of us build flavor characters, PD characters, and experiment with builds is so we can derive more enjoyment from playing DDO.


Playing a cookie-cutter toon is about as exciting as playing minesweeper for the 10 millionth time.

[Westerner]

Price? There's better "cheap" weapons out there. While I know that most of the damage tends to come from the weapon mods, there's other weapons that are just as cheap... but better!

Range. Daggers have very little range. In fact, by the time you can actually hit an enemy with it as a Rogue, you've probably bumped into the enemy and alerted them to your presence, thus nullifying why you're using them in the first place.
Your post is simplistic. Daggers can have good procs on them like any other weapon, and if you're on a budget, can make sense.

Your range remark gives me pause. Have you tested this? If true, it's a very big deal.

I've noticed a range difference on THF vs TWF but never noticed a difference between single handed weapons e.g. dagger vs longsword.

[SableShadow]

Your range remark gives me pause. Have you tested this? If true, it's a very big deal.

... never noticed a difference between single handed weapons e.g. dagger vs longsword.

Isn't true. Just go out to the portal in RR and vary the distance and weapon combos, you'll come to the same conclusion.

[Westerner]

And yeah you do need to be as maxed out as you can be if you want to play the game , otherwise you are not playing the game you are just watching those who are maxed out play the game while you run along behind them .
I'll try to remember that the next time I see someone who has +2 better gear dies and I have to haul his butt to the shrine.

You do not need to be a maxed-out DPS ape in order to contribute meaningfully.

[Westerner]

Isn't true. Just go out to the portal in RR and vary the distance and weapon combos, you'll come to the same conclusion.
EDIT: deleted to avoid confusion. There is a range difference between 1 handed and 2 handed weapons.

[SableShadow]

Confirming - you are saying that there is no range difference between THF/TWF?

Nah, no range difference between 1-handers.

[Westerner]

Nah, no range difference between 1-handers.

Ok, that is as I thought then. OP is mistaken about that. Perhaps he is making PnP based assumptions.

[SableShadow]

Ok, that is as I thought then. OP is mistaken about that. Perhaps he is making PnP based assumptions.

I used to labor under the same mistaken idea for a longish time, until AD set me straight...the arcs *look* like their shorter, so it's not *that* hard a mistake to make (or so I keep telling myself...). ;)

As far as the portal goes, forums being what they are I try to give someone an objective test they can convince themselves with...beats the whole "my experience, your experience" stuff any day of the week.

[Bodic]

but there should be a range difference between a Dagger and a Great Axe even taking in to consideration how you would hold 1vs the other.

I mean a halfing and his dagger should not have the same reach as a Half Orc and his great axe.

[krud]

but there should be a range difference between a Dagger and a Great Axe even taking in to consideration how you would hold 1vs the other.

I mean a halfing and his dagger should not have the same reach as a Half Orc and his great axe.
2 handed weapons have a longer reach than 1 handers, but among one-handed weapons there seems to be no difference.

[crazy7381]

Ancient Vulkroom Dagger good v giants most useful DAGGER I have found

[DDOSin]

Yay , your different like how all goths are individual , thats why we group them alltogether.

And yeah you do need to be as maxed out as you can be if you want to play the game , otherwise you are not playing the game you are just watching those who are maxed out play the game while you run along behind them .

Most stupid thing I've ever read on these forums. But what can you expect from someone who doesn't know the difference between YOU'RE and YOUR?

[krud]

And yeah you do need to be as maxed out as you can be if you want to play the game , otherwise you are not playing the game you are just watching those who are maxed out play the game while you run along behind them .
If you don't know how to play the game with a less than "maxxed out as you can be character" it's not the character that's gimp.