Character Stats 101 [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

GoldyGopher

03-16-2011, 11:35 AM

That's a fair question!

Giving feedback here is great, and I'm glad you brought up BAB. I've modified the entry in Character Stats 101 to reflect your feedback concerning attack speed.

However, for 101 guides our goal is to avoid overwhelming a newer player who is likely still sitting somewhere within levels 1-5. So, while I'm personally very happy to know the finer details of BAB (specifically, that the difference of 1 point of BAB can be as much as a loss of 3% attack speed) a newbie would probably have no idea what to do with that information -- at least, until later (201?) guides!

Suggestion 1
Link this information to the character creation screen. Have it so it is promently displayed and clicking on it opens to this page in the compendium.
New players are the players who need this information the most and not having easy access to it early on defeats the purpose of this work.

Suggestion 2
If you are planning on building a series of pages (Characters Stats 201, 301, and 401 in University parlance) mention that early on the document and you should really include what you are attempting to do as part of that description.

This page is designed to provide the basic elements of character design in DDO:EU. Subsequent pages will take an indepth look at other aspects of the game.

Suggestion 3
Your images are fairly useless in thier current mood. IE I really wanted to click on them and get some further information, but instead got to the image screen.
There placement is also a little awkward.
It would be nice if a drill down or popup listed what feats were available by class.

Suggestion 4
The page lists Ability Scores, Skills, Feats and Enhancements as ways to improve your character, yet only Ability Scores is really discussed. The others are almost only mentioned in passing.

Suggestion 5
If it is not an Ability, Score, Skill, Feat or Enhancement it should be taken off the page, AC and Saves for example. It's not that they are unimportant, rather they are not connected to exactly what you are trying to accomplish with this page.

Suggestion 6
Have links to subsequent pages at the bottom of the page. IE Armor Class, Saves, Skills, as well as links in line for indepth discussion of things like specific ability scores.

FordyTwo

03-16-2011, 11:40 AM

Expand the intro to the brief saves discussion at the end to indicate when and why that matters.

When a monster casts a spell at you, in order to resist those effects (or reduce the effects) you need to save. Each spell has type of save associated with it. For example a Fireball (an well known fantasy spell) has a Reflex save to indicate if you avoid the direct hit of the spell. A spell that would hold you still (Hold Person) is a WILL save to resist.

Saves also come into play when avoiding things like traps.

Great suggestion! I've updated the entry and given you a thumbs-up, good sir. :)

Zaal

03-16-2011, 11:42 AM

Trample

03-16-2011, 11:44 AM

dkyle

03-16-2011, 11:55 AM

Some nit picks:

Tip! Skills are improved by spending skill points; feats are improved by learning their corresponding II, III and IV variations. Both skills and feats can be improved via enhancements!

This is wrong, or misleading. Feats don't have II, III, IV variations, Enhancements do. Some feats have "Improved" or "Greater" versions, but those are separate feats, not improvements of feats.

Tip! Enhancements are different than ability scores, skills, and feats; enhancements are never permanent choices. You may reset your chosen enhancements for free once a week has passed.

It's not free, it costs a small amount of plat (could be significant for the intended audience of this), and I'm pretty sure the timer is 3 days, not a week. But I might be confusing it with feat and spell respecs.

And a suggestion:

Tip! Some class abilities and feats require you to have a “minimum” amount of a particular Ability Score. Keep that in mind when picking your ability increases!

Something about how Tomes apply to those prereqs, but not Enhancements or items could be good. This is often a source of confusion.

karl_k0ch

03-16-2011, 11:56 AM

Thanks for the quick replies to the Con issue. :)

I largely agree with GoldyGopher's post.

Especially, suggestion 3. I wanted to use the nice picture as a navigation tool, too, and was disappointed when I was directed to the image's wiki page.

I want to emphasize that the option to cross-link to other pages, in order to explain things in depth, or to provide supplemental information should be used - this is one thing what makes wikis so powerful.

Requiro

03-16-2011, 12:05 PM

My suggestions:

Ability: Strength. Add info that they determine carry ability.
Ability: Inteligence: amount of bonus spell points for Wizards
Ability: Wisdom: amount of bonus spell points for Cleric, Ranger and Paladins
Ability: Charisma: amount of bonus spell points for FvS, Bards, Sorcerers
Explanation: "some classes" are useless information. Give proper will not overwhelming newbies.
Remover Tip: "Tip! Some class abilities and feats require you to have a “minimum” amount of a particular Ability Score. Keep that in mind when picking your ability increases!"
Insted add Spell sub article: When you informed new players how to use spell in game (place on the hotbar and click), that tip above (but in my opinion is still too little - but smart players will understand that with the changes I posted above), and that spells uses SP ect.
Information (Tip maybe) that active abilities must be dragged to hotbar and click for use.

I made my suggestion from my experience when helping new players. They offen don’t know why they move slower (encumbrance), how to cast a spell, what is that blue bar below red one, why they can't cast a spell (min. ability score), how to use Manyshoot/ Trip/ Scribe Spells ect.

Angelus_dead

03-16-2011, 12:10 PM

Strength entry should change word "physical" to "melee", because Crossbows are physical but don't use str.

Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma entries should mention the special abilities of Rogues/Monks/Paladins.

A common mistake for Rangers/Paladins is to put too much into Wisdom, not understanding that buffs/items count towards reaching 14.

Consitution entry should mention that it's a rule of thumb for non-melee characters to have Con as their second-highest stat. (Look at the premade Wizard paths for an example!)

Lifeblood

03-16-2011, 12:11 PM

After some discussion with Tolero, we both agreed this was a good point! So I've added "Keeping this Ability Score no lower than 10 is highly encouraged, even if you're making a character who isn't a melee style." to the entry concerning CON. :)

if your con is only a base 10 ...you have dumped it

on the other hand ...at least your trying to do the right thing

Requiro

03-16-2011, 12:13 PM

Wisdom/Charisma entries should mention the special abilities of Monks/Paladins.

Consitution entry should mention that it's a rule of thumb for non-melee characters to have Con as their second-highest stat. (Look at the premade Wizard paths for an example!)

That are good tips. But I thing that FordyTwo told that they avoid details in that version. Because of that I don't mention about SR and DC - and this is basic of DDO.

(...)
A common mistake for Rangers/Paladins is to put too much into Wisdom, not understanding that buffs/items count towards reaching 14.
(...)

This is not mistake. But Min / Max your toon.

Lorien_the_First_One

03-16-2011, 12:17 PM

After some discussion with Tolero, we both agreed this was a good point! So I've added "Keeping this Ability Score no lower than 10 is highly encouraged, even if you're making a character who isn't a melee style." to the entry concerning CON. :)

Did you mean to say 14?

Because if you look at the threads in the last couple days you will realize 10con gets people auto-declined from groups thanks to myddo.

FordyTwo

03-16-2011, 12:21 PM

Suggestion 2
If you are planning on building a series of pages (Characters Stats 201, 301, and 401 in University parlance) mention that early on the document and you should really include what you are attempting to do as part of that description.

This page is designed to provide the basic elements of character design in DDO:EU. Subsequent pages will take an indepth look at other aspects of the game.

Suggestion 3
Your images are fairly useless in thier current mood. IE I really wanted to click on them and get some further information, but instead got to the image screen.
There placement is also a little awkward.
It would be nice if a drill down or popup listed what feats were available by class.

@Suggestion 2 - Yes, there will be an ongoing release and wiki-style cross-linking of 101, 201 and other guides. I've updated the intro text because you make a very good point here!

@Suggestion 3 - I agree with you, although I need to do some investigation about the best way to do this and how easily/soon our images can be made this way. All good things in time!

As to the suggestion of the removal of AC, BAB, etc: The idea for this guide is to cover most of the things a player is presented with when they hit the "C" key in DDO. While this also includes things like Fortification, Alignment, and Resistances I've taken some liberty to focus on specific elements that many newer players I talked to had questions about.

Edit: I also see discussions have been going on about 10 CON still being too low. That seems reasonable, so I bumped the entry to suggest 12 instead.

Edit 2: Tips have been tweaked in response to feedback from dkyle. Thanks! :)

yawumpus

03-16-2011, 12:40 PM

That are good tips. But I thing that FordyTwo told that they avoid details in that version. Because of that I don't mention about SR and DC - and this is basic of DDO.

This is not mistake. But Min / Max your toon.

I doubt that this guide should use the terms SR and DC, but it should at least push that
"Intelligence makes wizards' spells more effective"
"Wisdom makes clerics' and FVSs' spells more effective
"Charisma makes bards' and sorcerers' spells more effective"

A 10 con is still a dump [ed. you mean 14, not 12], I really thought you were joking on that post. Players should increase it until it requires more than one point to increase it, then hit the other required stats in order. For those with less required stats (fighter, barbarian, wizard, sorcerer), it is easy to increase some more. Players would be wise to avoid decreasing constitution from this level.

I would remove the line about dexterity and armor class. This is dumbed down enough that shouldn't trick players into investing in worthless AC. Leaving that bit altogether should help players avoid gimping their characters by putting precious points into dexterity.

Character stats 201 should deal with things like:

DC and SR, and why casters need 18 casting stats (hint, 18 wisdom for fvs, charisma is nearly a dump stat).
(stats 301 will deal with melee clerics/fvs/bards and how to build them)
required stats vs. beneficial stats: why rangers only need 14 dex, and can dump wisdom.
"unbuffable requirements": why TWF builds need 15-17 dexterity and paladins need lots of charisma.

It might not have been a design goal, but DDO is now a min-max game. While I don't feel that every player need play flavor of the month, I don't feel the need to encourage new players the same "opportunity to fail" on the player creation screen and not know it for months later. I make a point to steer new players to Tihocan's builds (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=232660) and leave my explanations on how to make a halfling barbarian (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=299512) to those who don't appear to be new to the game.

Requiro

03-16-2011, 12:46 PM

(...)It might not have been a design goal, but for me DDO is now a min-max game.(...)

Fixed for you ;)

Therigar

03-16-2011, 12:52 PM

A 10 con is still a dump, I really thought you were joking on that post. Players should increase it until it requires more than one point to increase it, then hit the other required stats in order.

Well, this is a false premise and an unfortunate one. If CON were really not a dump stat it would not be possible to use it as one -- each and every character would be required to start with minimum 14 (or 12 in the case of drow and elf) and have their starting build points reduced.

Obviously CON is a dump stat and there are even some people with the skill and gear to make it work.

What the community might think is appropriate in terms of building is not what the 101 should be addressing. It should be focused on the essentials of character building and include pros and cons for different decisions.

This is really what you are talking about when you say CON is never a dump stat. You are really saying that there are severe consequences for low CON. Yet, range focused and insta-kill builds being used primarily for soloing content can have very low CON scores with minimal negative effect because the tactics they will use in a quest will be vastly different from the brute force methods used by most groups. In fact, they might easily do very well with just the starting CON number and having never put a build point into CON.

This whole lack of pros and cons along with neutral guidance on how to make choices is why I find the 101 to be too simplistic. As it stands it might be a passable introduction to a 101 on character stats. But, without dealing with the decision making that goes into custom builds and talking about pros and cons, with relevant and neutral examples, it really isn't going to be useful.

Therigar

03-16-2011, 12:56 PM

Fixed for you ;)

That is a mistake to presume to have fixed what wasn't broken. DDO was a min/max game from the moment of release and group strategy limited to brute force for all but a limited number of encounters.

Even a cursory pass thru the forums will reveal this as the guiding premise.

People who take a different approach either have a strong support group via guild or static group or ride the coat tails of those who do min/max.

TheDearLeader

03-16-2011, 01:06 PM

Two hours and already second page. :D Does seem that this is a popular topic, yes?

Explaining the very basics is nice... three things I can see happening right now, though, is something that we see on these forums every day.

A. Its on the Compendium, something that I hardly ever see people (esp. new people) actually *use*. New people find it difficult to navigate or find what they are looking for, older players use the Wiki, and lazy players make a forum post.

B. "Oh I've played Dungeons and Dragons since 1st Edition, my dice are older than my house! Now let me raise my Sorcerer's Dex to 16, I want to make sure my Armor Class is good...hmm and probably 8 Con, I want to roleplay being frail in body composition..."
^^^^Seasoned D&D players tend toward thinking that they "know it all", such as my first DDO toon, a Fighter, having Cleave and Great Cleave because they always worked so well for me in PnP. They will end up ignoring this guide because they think they know better than.. well, anyone not them.

C. "I should get my Will Save up! +Wisdom. This Drow Barb is gonna rock!" Sometimes too much information at once is bad. Perhaps it wouldn't be bad to actually have at the bottom a general idea of where stats should be assigned for each class for 28- and 32- point builds.

So... yeah. There's all of that. Also, I noticed that the"Feat/Ability Increase" diagram uses Ninja Star-like icons to denote feats being earned. I can only assume this means that the Halfling Thrower PrE will make it into Update 9, and I need to roll a Ninja Spy II/Kensei I/Rogue 2 with all feats into making my Shuriken do more Deeps.

dkyle

03-16-2011, 01:31 PM

This whole lack of pros and cons along with neutral guidance on how to make choices is why I find the 101 to be too simplistic. As it stands it might be a passable introduction to a 101 on character stats. But, without dealing with the decision making that goes into custom builds and talking about pros and cons, with relevant and neutral examples, it really isn't going to be useful.

The purpose isn't "pros and cons". It's advice for new players, who don't know enough about the game to weigh those pros and cons. And I think it's pretty clear that new players are better served by advice about what they're likely to encounter, not what a handful of elite players do.

A new player should never, ever, dump CON. Period. Down that road lies disappointment and frustration at high levels. Only after fully understanding the game can someone effectively experiment with low CON.

Get them started with with simple instructions that will serve them well. Deeper understanding of the game will come later.

FeralKittie

03-16-2011, 01:52 PM

Very cool. My main suggestion is it needs higher visibility. This is exactly the kind of thing that belongs on the "Game Info" drop down menu on the main page.

Also, under "Asking for Assistance", I would add something to the effect of, "For more in-depth info, visit the forums or the wealth of player-created resources", with a link to the fansite listings.

Personally, when I first started, it took me an embarrassingly long time to find resources on the game, and I had alot of difficulty finding what I was looking for in the compendium (I'm a bit shy, and would much rather read on my own initially). This is the stuff players should be able to spot day one.

yawumpus

03-16-2011, 02:07 PM

What the community might think is appropriate in terms of building is not what the 101 should be addressing. It should be focused on the essentials of character building and include pros and cons for different decisions.
... why I find the 101 to be too simplistic. As it stands it might be a passable introduction to a 101 on character stats. But, without dealing with the decision making that goes into custom builds and talking about pros and cons, with relevant and neutral examples, it really isn't going to be useful.

The amount knowledge required to make a workable 8 CON character and play it to cap would probably be more than typically covered in a 101 (US college introductory) course (just the information needed to build it might come close to a few fluff courses I had to take). This is an important build decision, and it only gets a line or two of text. I suspect just leaving it at 14 would be less confusing than the typical advice of "increase at least as long as you get one point of CON per build point", but would leave some pointless dwarf builds.

You can suggest that a newbie should make wizards with both 8 INT and 8 CON, but you might as well suggest playing WoW afterwards, because they won't stay with DDO very long.

Talon_Moonshadow

03-16-2011, 02:08 PM

@Suggestion 2 - Yes, there will be an ongoing release and wiki-style cross-linking of 101, 201 and other guides. I've updated the intro text because you make a very good point here!

@Suggestion 3 - I agree with you, although I need to do some investigation about the best way to do this and how easily/soon our images can be made this way. All good things in time!

As to the suggestion of the removal of AC, BAB, etc: The idea for this guide is to cover most of the things a player is presented with when they hit the "C" key in DDO. While this also includes things like Fortification, Alignment, and Resistances I've taken some liberty to focus on specific elements that many newer players I talked to had questions about.

Edit: I also see discussions have been going on about 10 CON still being too low. That seems reasonable, so I bumped the entry to suggest 12 instead.

Edit 2: Tips have been tweaked in response to feedback from dkyle. Thanks! :)

I hope you realise that you just allowed the power gamers to dictate how "ALL" ddo chars should be made (stats allocated).

You now have made it the official Turbine opinion that every char should have a high Con.

And that since it is the official opinion, it can then be assumed that every char has the recomened stat. So then it will be used as the standard to create damage effects in the future.

Which means that anyone who makes a char without the sugested minimum Con is now at a real disadvantage.

Before now. Before it was officially a higher number. People would assume that a 10 Con was an average adventurer. And damage would be set for what the average chars HP were.

Now you just raised the bar. You just created inflation in damage/minimum HP.

Now there truly is no other way to make a char without gimping him.

Before a high Con was an advantage. It meant that that char was more developed than average in that stat. (HP)

Now the above average Con is just the average Con. Which makes the guy who invested in it weaker, and the guy who does not much weaker, cause instead of just being average, he is now below the average.

I can only hope that the designers wil now assume that the average Dex is an 8, and adjust future content appropriately.

Zadkiele

03-16-2011, 02:08 PM

The purpose isn't "pros and cons". It's advice for new players

I don't think so, I think it's intended to be 'information' for new players, not advice. Sure there might be a bit of advice in there here and there, but it's prime function is to be information about those numbers on the character sheet and what they mean.

DDO has by far the most complicated and obtuse stat system out there, certain aspects of which are very important to know and yet unintuituve for people with no D&D experience who have played other MMOs (bonus stacking, I'm looking at you) and I suspect that Turbine have had feedback that they are losing a lot of potential new players because of that steep learning curve, which has prompted this article. And I think it's a good thing.

Zad

bigolbear

03-16-2011, 02:12 PM

on BAB:
id recomend adding a caveat that BAB is determined by your class and that many feats require a minimum BAB to take them thus a mele will often get access to those feats faster than a specialist or a spellcaster.

on dexterity:
you say it is your prmary form of defence. I dont agree with this given the way DDO is implemented. i would recomend changing this to something like "dexterity is an important form of defence for rogues monks and rangers and any one that intends to wear light or no armour. Characters that wear heavy armour such as full plate will have less use for dexterity and the benefits of high dexterity are limited by wearing heavy armour and using towershields"

on inteligence:
inteligence determines the number of extra skill points you will get and increases to intelligence will not give you more skill points retroactively so unless your a wizard whos spell casting is determined by inteligence it is usualy a good idea to start with a reasonable inteligence even if you intend to spend your levling up stat points somewhere else, strength for example.

On stats in general:
please list the kind of skills that are affected by that stat - eg strength effects jump. aditionaly where you have put this stat may effect spellcasting for some classes please list which classes. further more please explain that rangers and paladins get very few offensive spells so a high wisdom (over 14 including items) is not normaly needed.

On feats:
it is worth noting that many feats have prerequisites, these prerequisites can include other feats, a minimum BAB and a minimum score in a given stat which does not incude any bonus to that stat from items or enhacnements.

on advice:
id recomend including a link to the ddo wiki and point out that it is a player managed resource that turbine has no offical domain over.
Id also recomend joining an established guild and asking for advice there (/gu for guild chat)

on race:
there is no mention of how race would effect a character, this should be addressed.

overall i thought that it was a well designed document for new players and i commend the approach - i thought the pictures were nice and would be helpful to new players.
I'd also like to suggest additional documents like these:
"coming from a pen and paper D&D background"
"coming from a mmo background"
"etiquete and freindly behaviour in DDO"
"how to find a group, a guild and freinds online"

yawumpus

03-16-2011, 02:13 PM

Two hours and already second page. :D Does seem that this is a popular topic, yes?

C. "I should get my Will Save up! +Wisdom. This Drow Barb is gonna rock!" Sometimes too much information at once is bad.

This is why I suggested removing the AC bit from dexterity. The game has Dungeons and Dragons in its name, and plenty of games that followed D&D give such bonuses to dexterous characters. DDO snatches such benefits so fast from so many characters that such information is completely wrong. It would be even closer to the truth to state that it doesn't give such benefits (although since the players might learn that it does on Korthos, mention just how transient they are).

Zenako

03-16-2011, 02:14 PM

Suggesting that new players put points into CON is fine, but not at the expense of doing other things well.

Yes the common balls to the wall zerg and mosh pit tactics many employ does place a premium on having enough Hit Points to withstand a battle without dying. HOWEVER, while a common play style, it is far from the only play style. It is a very suicidal play style for most new players who seem to more often than not spend time running solo for a while until they get their feet wet in the game.

AC DOES matter a LOT in those low levels. It takes only a bare minimum of gear to get decent AC that matters. Without building for it AC at the higher levels becomes hard to maintain, but also keep in mind, many many of these players are fine with just playing on Normal Settings and there, even at the higher levels, viable AC can be maintained.

So at second level, will those 2 extra HP be worth to keeping you alive than perhaps getting missed more often (with an extra point of AC)? Or some extra damage on an attack, or more success with landing a spell?

This is for Stats 101, not "AP Stats for TRs"

Angelus_dead

03-16-2011, 02:16 PM

Well, this is a false premise and an unfortunate one. If CON were really not a dump stat it would not be possible to use it as one -- each and every character would be required to start with minimum 14 (or 12 in the case of drow and elf) and have their starting build points reduced.
That is quite different from what the term "dump stat" actually means.

A "dump stat" is something that a type of character does not need, and may as well leave very low. For example, Wisdom is a dump stat for Sorcerers. If Constitution were a dump stat for some classes, then it would be sensible for those classes to leave Consitution very low. But since Constitution is fairly important for everyone besides hagglebots/bank-mules, to say it isn't a dump stat is accurate.

Talon_Moonshadow

03-16-2011, 02:18 PM

That is a mistake to presume to have fixed what wasn't broken. DDO was a min/max game from the moment of release and group strategy limited to brute force for all but a limited number of encounters.

Even a cursory pass thru the forums will reveal this as the guiding premise.

People who take a different approach either have a strong support group via guild or static group or ride the coat tails of those who do min/max.

That's not completely true.

Players made it that way, not the game. Players chose to use those tactics. They are not required. Nor are those who do not min/max riding on anyone else's coat-tails or piking....etc.

The one place I have always felt this game ewas a min/max game by design was with spell casters and their casting stat.

For both saves DCs and runes.

I guess you can add trap saves to that. And trap Search Disable DCs.

Anyway, both situations have always bothered me.

Combat is not a min/max game. Less DPS just means things die slower.....but usually they still die.
it is the players that have chosen to approach every problem from a min/max DPS standpoint....not the game.

TheDearLeader

03-16-2011, 02:23 PM

Now the above average Con is just the average Con. Which makes the guy who invested in it weaker, and the guy who does not much weaker, cause instead of just being average, he is now below the average.

I can see the point of this argument to a degree. Raising the standard universally means content will be more difficult...

Where this fails to make the connect with reality is that the people who currently are in game with Base 6/8/10 Con already *are* dying. Low Con is often a symptom of a larger problem, and characters such as these tend to also have other imbalances.

Maybe its High'ish AC, but lacking GFL, Toughness as a Feat/Enhancement Line/Item property, Con +6 Item, etc. Maybe its a super-high Reflex Save, but a low Fort save. Or maybe Evasion, but no Improved Evasion, and somehow a relatively poor reflex save.

Either way, Low starting Con is a symptom of a larger problem of player inexperience with this particular MMO... lets say 9 times out of 10.

Gear and enhancements, we can help a new player change. Even feats, at least to a degree. But starting ability scores are set in stone, barring TR, LR, GR, or Reroll. They are the foundation; why not give new players a solid foundation?

dunklezhan

03-16-2011, 02:24 PM

don't know if this has been said:

"Tip! Some class abilities and feats require you to have a “minimum” amount of a particular Ability Score. Keep that in mind when picking your ability increases! "

Add 'although you can increase ability scores with enhancements and equipment, these do not count towards your "minimum" amount.'

Catches a LOT of people out. 'But... but I HAVE 17 dex! And enough BaB! Why can't I buy GTWF? What do you mean enhancements don't count? Why doesn't it say that in the feat description! How are you supposed to know this stuff!'

Talon_Moonshadow

03-16-2011, 02:41 PM

I can see the point of this argument to a degree. Raising the standard universally means content will be more difficult...

Where this fails to make the connect with reality is that the people who currently are in game with Base 6/8/10 Con already *are* dying. Low Con is often a symptom of a larger problem, and characters such as these tend to also have other imbalances.

Maybe its High'ish AC, but lacking GFL, Toughness as a Feat/Enhancement Line/Item property, Con +6 Item, etc. Maybe its a super-high Reflex Save, but a low Fort save. Or maybe Evasion, but no Improved Evasion, and somehow a relatively poor reflex save.

Either way, Low starting Con is a symptom of a larger problem of player inexperience with this particular MMO... lets say 9 times out of 10.

Gear and enhancements, we can help a new player change. Even feats, at least to a degree. But starting ability scores are set in stone, barring TR, LR, GR, or Reroll. They are the foundation; why not give new players a solid foundation?

People with max Con die too. Sometimes even first.

When you charge into battle, agro a whole room full of monsters, consider AC useless.....the result is that you take damage. A lot of damage.

it is not the low Con that kills people.
In some cases it is the low Con, but that is because they are trying to play the game the way the guys with high Con are playing it.

New players are not learnng caution. They are learning that the only way to not die is to have a ton of HP. And that is not true.

They are also not aware of the same vets they see charging into every fight are probably tweaked to the max with gear. Gear that one way or another keeps them from getting hurt.....

Why stop at 12(14 :rolleyes: ) Con?
Why not just suggest that all characters should start 18 Con and put all lvl ups into Con. And Take Toughness feat and enhancements, and wear Grtr False life items, Minos Helms and GS HP items........MINIMUM!
And make that the official Turbine opinion.

Since that is exactly what most forum posters advise.
It is what the Uber players al claim.

Every forum post claims that their chars have 500HP. Every one of them do.

So lets make it the official Turbine opinion that every lvl 16+ char should have 500HP.

And lets design all future content assuming that everyone has 500HP.

Or.
We can assume that only certain kinds of players have 500HP.
And that they had to give up something else to get those HP.
So we can challange them by putting something in the game that having another stat lower would be a disadvantage.

The way to control inflation in HP is to make having super high HP un-needed. To limit it's advantage. And to make other things also needed and useful.

But by letting the vocal majority(minority?) dictate that everyone should make chars just like they do, and to acept that as universal standard....puts anyone who chose a different route at a bigger disadvantage than they were before.

TheDearLeader

03-16-2011, 02:45 PM

People with max Con die too. Sometimes even first.

I snipped the rest because you're starting to get ranty. Take a breath dude.

I'm just saying that low ability scores are more difficult to change than gear/enhancements/feats/tactics and playstyle. So, might as well start them off on the right foot.

Lifeblood

03-16-2011, 02:49 PM

Edit: I also see discussions have been going on about 10 CON still being too low. That seems reasonable, so I bumped the entry to suggest 12 instead.

While many would agree that 12 is still too low....Thank you for listening to us and bumping it up

as 101 is directed at new players one would have to assume 28 pt builds and therefore less pts to go around..

Drfirewater79

03-16-2011, 03:06 PM

In my ongoing effort to gather and present information for newer DDO players with lingering questions, the Character Stat 101 guide has been published (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Character_Stats_101) today.

Constructive feedback and criticism is encouraged! I'd love to hear feedback from you (the community!) on information that's potentially missing from this guide, or that you feel could be presented in a better manner.

suggesting everyone keep there con above 12 .. funny ...

you do realize without telling them why you do little to no justice to them.

for each 2 points of con you get 1 hps per level ... so taking a con 8 you will have 40 less hps then a con 12,

if 40 hps is the difference between you suck and your uber .. then do it .. but dont take the suggestion that you NEED 12 con cause that is not entirely accurate and is highly pending on your class selection and multiclassing choices.

You can easily hit over 350 hps with the right gear with a 8 con at lvl 20. it just means getting the right gear.
If you feel you need more then 350 hps .. then simply add 20 hit points to 350 till you get to the number you want to have and figure out how many points to put in con. The more you put in con the less you can put into other stats so chose wisely.

Renegade66

03-16-2011, 04:06 PM

Probably TMI, but . . .

Dexterity
Coordination and agility! Affects your primary defenses (Armor Class, or AC), ability to dodge attacks (Reflex saves), and the accuracy of your ranged attacks. Also helps Rogue's ability to sneak and open locks.

Intelligence
Learning ability and reasoning! Affects skill points gained at each level and the amount of bonus spell points and spell difficulty check (DC) for Wizards. Also important for Rogue's ability to locate and disable traps.

Wisdom
Willpower and intuition! Affects your willpower (Will save) and the amount of bonus spell points for Clerics and spell difficulty check for Clerics and Favored Souls. Wisdom also boosts a Monk's Armor Class.

Charisma
Personality and magnetism! Determines how well you influence non-player characters (NPCs) and affects the amount of bonus spell points (Sorcerers, Bards and Favored Souls) and spell difficulty check for Sorcerers and Bards.

Sirea

03-16-2011, 04:24 PM

PNellesen

03-16-2011, 04:31 PM

After some discussion with Tolero, we both agreed this was a good point! So I've added "Keeping this Ability Score no lower than 14 is highly encouraged, even if you're making a character who isn't a melee style." to the entry concerning CON. :)

Fixed that for you :)

GoldyGopher

03-16-2011, 04:32 PM

karl_k0ch

03-16-2011, 04:39 PM

But then again, I must only think that because I'm an "evil zerger powergamer", right? :rolleyes:
I think you forgot "elitist" and "conformist" somewhere.

Cauthey

03-16-2011, 04:44 PM

Hey, FordyTwo (or any other Turbine staff):

The image is broken on the 101 article lead in on ddo.com. The image is linked to the admin-side site, which the public cannot access.

See? Here: http://www.ddo.com/

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/the_elf/FordyTwo.jpg

You're welcome. :D

Cordovan

03-16-2011, 04:55 PM

Therigar

03-16-2011, 06:03 PM

The amount knowledge required to make a workable 8 CON character and play it to cap would probably be more than typically covered in a 101 (US college introductory) course (just the information needed to build it might come close to a few fluff courses I had to take).

To start with, I'm glad somebody recognizes what a 101 course is. After reading the current 101 lesson I was under the impression somebody thought it meant writing for middle schoolers. Given the number of "wow this is great" comments I was left thinking that this, unfortunately, is what the community thinks is appropriate.

I'd also like to agree with your assessment. It is beyond the skill level of most players to make low stat characters work. That is because of the interrelationship of stats to key parts of DDO.

Rather than bland statements like "CON should be at least 10" players should be told what the interrelationships are between CON and a) HP, b) fortitude and c) player base acceptance. The fact that the player base generally views HP as the replacement for AC (because AC is meaningless in higher level quests and DPS is too low if you manage adequate AC) needs to be communicated. The game's mechanics of inflated monster HP drive this. That monster HP is inflated in order to allow one mob to represent 10 or 100 times its actual number in an encounter (a standard computer game design decision) influences that mechanic. And all of it drives monsters being more powerful in the game than they would be in PnP -- which makes AC mostly meaningless.

So the message has to be conveyed to the gaming base that stat choices are important and there are consequences to each choice. These are not so simple as the impact on number of skill points or differences in saving throws. They also impact DCs and HP and AC. And the entire game is a balancing act that is tilted heavily towards HP because the player base is heavily tilted towards min/maxing in order to gain ultimate benefit out of each class.

That Turbine rewards this with their game design only further pushes this. In all of the quests there is only 1 where balanced characters gain a perk for their balance -- and that is to turn some runes to avoid fighting some mobs. Most groups will either bypass that option or they'll power thru the mobs. (I'm talking about Partycrashers.)

If min/maxing were punished thru game design then we'd see a lot of balanced characters and the use of many more skills. But that isn't how DDO is designed and at this point in time it is unrealistic to think that it will change.

So, a 101 course has to address the game the way it is. This means explaining the consequences of too much emphasis on a stat as well as the consequences of too little emphasis. It also means addressing the key min/max build concepts and the issues of DPS and/or offensive & defensive spell power.

It certainly isn't a college freshman style course in its current state.

Therigar

03-16-2011, 06:07 PM

The purpose isn't "pros and cons". It's advice for new players, who don't know enough about the game to weigh those pros and cons. And I think it's pretty clear that new players are better served by advice about what they're likely to encounter, not what a handful of elite players do.

This is sheer arrogance. What you are saying is that new players are too stupid to figure out things on their own if you give them the pluses and minuses. Instead they should just do what they are told to do because we know best.

That isn't Character Stats 101, that is here's the build play it.

If the purpose isn't pros and cons then the document has the wrong purpose. It is totally worthless without that element.

protokon

03-16-2011, 06:10 PM

After some discussion with Tolero, we both agreed this was a good point! So I've added "Keeping this Ability Score no lower than 10 is highly encouraged, even if you're making a character who isn't a melee style." to the entry concerning CON. :)

Most veteran builders can agree that when designing a character, the rule of thumb is always to pump points into con at least until it costs double points (2 points per rank versus 1) - the majority of races will make it to 14 con, which makes for a good foundation - end-game that is 40 more hitpoints.

I would personally up this number to 12 at the least :).

Therigar

03-16-2011, 06:16 PM

I hope you realise that you just allowed the power gamers to dictate how "ALL" ddo chars should be made (stats allocated).

If I were into giving rep I'd give you a +1. You get "it" -- in this case the it being that powergamers dictate how DDO is being developed and played.

It is unfortunately true. But the entire 101 could be replaced by the official build thread and the 20 or so "approved" powergamer builds. Could even make it easier by not even allowing players to play anything else.

Save us all a lot of trouble.

Or....

We could accept that DDO is D&D based and that the freedom to make choices is part of the appeal of the game. We could understand that our purpose is not to tell people what must be done but to tell them what can and probably will happen when specific things are done.

As I pointed out, a low CON character might solo very well. It might perform poorly when grouping, though, because of a change in tactics. Brute force is the standard group tactic and low CON doesn't perform well in that situation. So, a perfectly playable character might become unplayable grouping.

If this is explained to a new player then they'll be able to make an informed decision about CON.

This applies to any stat.

The 101 would be better if it advocated understanding and focused on the pluses and minuses of each stat decision.

yawumpus

03-16-2011, 06:26 PM

Therigar

03-16-2011, 06:31 PM

That is quite different from what the term "dump stat" actually means.

A "dump stat" is something that a type of character does not need, and may as well leave very low. For example, Wisdom is a dump stat for Sorcerers. If Constitution were a dump stat for some classes, then it would be sensible for those classes to leave Consitution very low. But since Constitution is fairly important for everyone besides hagglebots/bank-mules, to say it isn't a dump stat is accurate.

In the most technical sense you are right. However the implication is that you can never have a 6 or 8 CON and have a playable character which is untrue. I appreciate the need you have for technical accuracy but it is hardly relevant.

The relevant piece is that each stat choice carries consequences. The decision to invest a build point into a stat has consequences. The decision to not invest a build point into a stat has consequences.

In the strictest sense none of the stats are dump stats except that DDO does a poor job of demanding balance in a character. If we were earning our end rewards based on our charisma that would suddenly become important. If more quests demanded bluff or intimidate or similar skills we'd see more INT for skill points along with more CHA.

Dump stats only exist because of game design.

But, that very game design rewards some build point investment more than others. This is why we have min/max builds dominating. A melee character needs 2 stats -- STR and CON. Nothing else is required. It is possible to sacrifice a small amount of damage (STR) or HP (CON) for DEX in order to boost total damage. But, if a player cannot afford the DEX they can simply elect ranger as a class.

An arcane only needs 2 stats -- their casting stat (INT or CHA) and CON. If they have leftover build points they might invest in STR but that is a last choice.

A divine only needs 2 stats.

You don't start into the 3 or more stats until you get to bards and rogues. And, even then you might be able to get by with 2.

But, this is only 1 approach to the game. And it demands reliance on other players in a group setting.

A player that is soloing as well as one into permadeath or static grouping might find a lot of advantage in balancing their stats. They might easily find that they can not afford points in CON even if it is desireable because of the importance of other stats.

This is complicated by 28 point vs 32 point builds. The 4 build points extra might be the ones that would be shunted off to CON.

Once again, if CON is genuinely not a dump stat then we should just charge it to the builds up front and disallow anything with less than 14 CON.

And, as Talon pointed out, that makes 14 CON the new average -- meaning anything less than 18 is really weakness.

Therigar

03-16-2011, 06:35 PM

Sirea

03-16-2011, 06:38 PM

A melee character needs 2 stats -- STR and CON. Nothing else is required. It is possible to sacrifice a small amount of damage (STR) or HP (CON) for DEX in order to boost total damage. But, if a player cannot afford the DEX they can simply elect ranger as a class.

...

You don't start into the 3 or more stats until you get to bards and rogues. And, even then you might be able to get by with 2.

Someone's never rolled a Paladin before I take it...

Therigar

03-16-2011, 06:42 PM

Wow, I can't believe that there are people in this thread that think that telling new players that Constitution is an important stat to all classes is a bad thing.

I would think that trying to help new players increase their survivability would be an invaluable piece of advice.

But then again, I must only think that because I'm an "evil zerger powergamer", right? :rolleyes:

That is not what we are saying. If that is what you are reading then you don't understand.

What we are saying is that you should tell people what the good things are about choosing to invest in CON and you should tell them what the bad things are if choosing not to invest in CON. Replace CON with every other stat at any point in the 101.

CON is one of the most useful stats. Choosing to leave CON low adversely affects HP which measure how easy you are to kill. The more HP you have the less likely you are to die. But, this has to be balanced out with your ability to kill monsters or otherwise peform your class role. An arcane that sacrifices INT or CHA (depending on class) in favor of CON will be less likely to die but also less effective in their spell casting. A cleric that sacrifices WIS for CON will have more HP but less spell points and thus less healing power. A solo focused character that invests in CON but doesn't give enough focus on their other stats might find that they can't kill the monsters even though it takes the character a longer time to die.

New players need to see the good and bad in each choice -- not have some number tossed at them as a recommendation.

Therigar

03-16-2011, 06:46 PM

Someone's never rolled a Paladin before I take it...

LOL, yeah paladins -- they need like every stat but they'll settle for dumping INT most of the time. :)

Then again, I remember when paladins had to have min 17 CHA and we would roll 3d6 in sequence until we got the 17 or 18 for CHA. Then we'd look at the other numbers and throw it all away when STR was a 5 and DEX was an 11.... :D

Stat heavy builds with 28 points are a good reason to explain the pros and cons of decisions and let the player choose rather than giving "advice."

NaturalHazard

03-16-2011, 06:49 PM

can you please add: "CON IS NEVER A DUMP STAT" ? :D

can you devote an entire page to this line and make it as big as possible? thank you.

tgun

03-16-2011, 06:51 PM

Why not just suggest that all characters should start 18 Con and put all lvl ups into Con....

Since that is exactly what most forum posters advise.
It is what the Uber players al claim.

I've never seen someone give this advice. Could you maybe find a couple examples of it?

Sirea

03-16-2011, 06:59 PM

LOL, yeah paladins -- they need like every stat but they'll settle for dumping WIS most of the time. :)

Fixed that for you. Starting base WIS and equipping an item is enough to be able to cast all your spells. An AC Paladin especially will want INT for Combat expertise.

Why stop at 12(14 :rolleyes: ) Con?
Why not just suggest that all characters should start 18 Con and put all lvl ups into Con. And Take Toughness feat and enhancements, and wear Grtr False life items, Minos Helms and GS HP items........MINIMUM!
And make that the official Turbine opinion.

Since that is exactly what most forum posters advise.
It is what the Uber players al claim.

What is your aversion to hit points?

Besides, everyone knows that a character that sacrifices all those build points to CON is only good for shieldblocking rats in the Vale :rolleyes:

OverlordOfRats

03-16-2011, 07:00 PM

I would suggest adding under Skills Vs Feat in the tip section:

Skills cannot be reset, choose wisely.
Feats may be reset once every three days, for a large sum of platinum (in-game currency) and a Dragonshard(available in game).

edited to include Kourier's and sirgog's comments.

Kourier

03-16-2011, 07:04 PM

I would suggest adding under Skills Vs Feat in the tip section:

Skills cannot be reset, choose wisely.
Feats may be reset once every three days, for a small sum of platinum (in-game currency) and a token(available in game).

That's enhancements you're thinking of. Feats require a dragonshard, which becomes quite expensive at high levels.

Also, min-maxed players don't max out con. That's not a good return on investment. And while it's definitely possible to make a decent hp character with low con, a little build investment produces a big result - 40+ hit points (The equivalent of a shroud item).

OverlordOfRats

03-16-2011, 07:09 PM

That's enhancements you're thinking of. Feats require a dragonshard, which becomes quite expensive at high levels.

I meant feats since it is mentioned that enchacments can be changed. Edited token to say Dragonshard. Thank you

yawumpus

03-16-2011, 07:12 PM

This is sheer arrogance. What you are saying is that new players are too stupid to figure out things on their own if you give them the pluses and minuses. Instead they should just do what they are told to do because we know best.

That isn't Character Stats 101, that is here's the build play it.

If the purpose isn't pros and cons then the document has the wrong purpose. It is totally worthless without that element.

And plenty of people would argue that such is a good idea. On second though, just replace the currently approved "paths" with Tihocan's.

There is a reason for this. You could explain every rule in complete detail, but with first hand experience at all levels of play, you are not likely to come up with a build that will contribute to the party all through to cap (and even less to endgame and epic).

This isn't some opinion power gamers have, this is an often repeated experiment. Look up the "things I wish I knew" thread. CON IS NOT A DUMPSTAT is the most often repeated claim. DDO isn't pnp is repeated less often, but it is up there. 3.x pnp players know the srd forwards, backwards, and sideways. It is completely possible that they come to DDO with a better understanding of the rules than most DDO players (much more, since the DM has to handle the rules in front of them, not like turbines servers). Nevertheless, pnp players are notorious for weak builds that are painfully rerolled. This isn't just reading a quick guide to building characters, this is having the multiple rulebooks entirely memorized. Their builds will work fine in D&D, but this isn't D&D.

The other issue is that once a player builds his carefully thought out toon, he is dumped out on Korthos. He gets 20 bonus hit points, and gets another 10 "false" hit points when he runs the "storehouse secret" and picks the "right" choice (and equips it). At this point, a barbarian has 42 hit points from his level, the bonus, and the belt. Bumping CON to 14 (the powergamer minimum) would give him a bonus of 2, or a 5% increase. Our newbie is being a bit clumsy at the keyboard and gets hit a bunch, so he decides to increase his dexterity. He drops CON to 10 and pumps DEX to 14. While I have no idea what a Korthos mob hits on, it is far more than a 2. I'll guess a 10, but suspect they have a 0 BAB. His battleworn chain has a max dex bonus of 2, so AC is increased by 2. If the mobs hit on a 2, he would be hit just under 10% less often, but if it is 10 he would be getting hit 20% less often. So now he gets hit 20% less often for a price of 5% less hit points. This is perfect! Lets keep this character.

So while giving away 30 hit points to first level toons does a world of good to newbie survival (I'm from the pre-3.x give new toons max hit points - "ow, my hit point!" era), it teaches some very bad ideas on character building. That 5% penalty will become a 15% penalty and that 20% bonus will become a 0% bonus (much quicker for raging barbarians, but soon enough for all but "powergamer" AC builds). While not maxing strength is bad for a barbarian, imagine the poor wizard who didn't max his intelligence (most spells hit just as hard without for a good long time, especially if wearing the grotto robe), or the rogue who dumped strength (all too common), but maxed dexterity (who knows what happened to intelligence).

I will claim that shoving newbies into cookie cutter builds is a good idea. Cookie cutter builds work. The difference between a unique, usable build that will help the party complete the quest and an utter gimp that will ride around in a backpack (until replaced by some handy prayer beads) is not something that can be easily be determined by someone who hasn't played the game, even if they have the srd memorized.

jkm

03-16-2011, 07:24 PM

personally, i'd suggest you do the following for the stat scores. take the calculators you have on the class pages and put them under each stat. most new players have zero understanding of how choices made at level 1 affect them at level 11+.

so for example, Con - blah blah blah min 12!!

See effects on CON score vs Damage Taken
[dropdown_charclass] [textbox_ConScore]

[add in level appropriate bonuses for each of 1,5, 10, 20 to False Life/Con Items etc]

Fighter, 14 CON

Level 1 - 10*1 (Levels) + 2*1 (Con Bonus) + 20 (Heroic Durability) = 32
Avg Damage for Quests (melee) = 2
Avg Damage for Quests (spells) = 3

This is a safe CON score for this level

Level 5 - blah blah blah

Level 10 - blah blah blah

Level 15 - blah blah blah

Level 20 - add in +6 for con stat item, +2 tome + 30 GFL = 20*10 (Levels) + 6*20 (Con) + 30 (GFL) + 20 (Heroic Durability) = 370
Avg Damage for Quests (melee) = 55
Avg Damage for Quests (spells) = 75

then put a warning up if they can be killed in 3 shots or less

You may want to consider more CON or the Toughness Feat

wax_on_wax_off

03-16-2011, 07:49 PM

After some discussion with Tolero, we both agreed this was a good point! So I've added "Keeping this Ability Score no lower than 10 is highly encouraged, even if you're making a character who isn't a melee style." to the entry concerning CON. :)

No lower than 10? I kick people from my groups if I find out they have 10 starting constitution.

I think it is certainly true that after investing in your prime ability score for your class that 1-1 investments into constitution will give a greater return on investment towards survivability than any other options 99% of the time.

Additionally, survivability 99% of the time translates into overall effectiveness as when you have a good HP buffer you can play more aggressively which will lead to more skill/fun.

Obviously there are exceptions to a general "6 point investment into constitution" rule but they are few and far between.

sirgog

03-16-2011, 08:04 PM

suggesting everyone keep there con above 12 .. funny ...

you do realize without telling them why you do little to no justice to them.

for each 2 points of con you get 1 hps per level ... so taking a con 8 you will have 40 less hps then a con 12,

if 40 hps is the difference between you suck and your uber .. then do it .. but dont take the suggestion that you NEED 12 con cause that is not entirely accurate and is highly pending on your class selection and multiclassing choices.

You can easily hit over 350 hps with the right gear with a 8 con at lvl 20. it just means getting the right gear.
If you feel you need more then 350 hps .. then simply add 20 hit points to 350 till you get to the number you want to have and figure out how many points to put in con. The more you put in con the less you can put into other stats so chose wisely.

350hp is a terrible number. It's just enough that you will be killed over and over again by taking two consecutive Fireball effects in epics. (DBF deals ~160-240 damage when Maximized, 130-210 after a resist; two of those will often hit within a space of 1 second and kill a 350hp player)

The other main consequence of dumping Con is that people myDDO you, see that you have a build utterly unsuited to getting through the quest/raid at hand without wasting an enormous amount of the healers' resources, and kick you from group. That's a pretty miserable experience to have happen to you several times starting at around level 14, and is likely a time at which people will ragequit the game.

Starting with a CON of 14 guarantees this will not happen. 12 is borderline.

IMO the game should force you to have 6 build points in Con on all toons until you have unlocked Veteran Status, at which point these kid gloves come off and you are allowed to make your own mistakes.

On saves, I'd mention that not all traps involve Reflex saves. A Horrid Wilting trap (there's some in the Shroud) involves a Fortitude save. An arrow trap makes an attack roll just like a monster.

Oh and on respeccing - I'd echo Overlord of Rats:

"I would suggest adding under Skills Vs Feat in the tip section:

Skills cannot be reset, choose wisely.
Feats may be reset once every three days, for a small sum of platinum (in-game currency) and a Dragonshard(available in game). "

except I'd change it to say 'a large sum in platinum' instead. For veterans, 80k PP is pocket change, but for newbies, feat respecs are expensive. It's not uncommon for me to need to get plat from an alt to fund a feat respec.

wax_on_wax_off

03-16-2011, 08:10 PM

And, as Talon pointed out, that makes 14 CON the new average -- meaning anything less than 18 is really weakness.

14 Con IS the average (well, 6 point investment), at least among anyone with a clue, though it is a *median* value, not a mean value.

This means that the majority of occurrences of constitution is a 6 point investment. A majority of the exceptions will be those characters that have a greater investment (on arcanes or melees without anything better to spend it on). A very small group of builds might make an intelligent decision to invest less than 6 points (valiance 1.0 build for instance) while the rest will be gimp/noob/newb/flavour builds who don't know any better.

Additionally, in any situation where the extra HP from a high con *aren't* needed, you're better off first looking at skipping taking the toughness feat (what I did for my arcane). 1 extra feat > 4 build points usually.

Zenako

03-16-2011, 08:14 PM

One of the problems I see is that many of the people posting about CON on this thread are focused on ELITE end game and EPIC level questing. On those settings, yes more HP are almost a requirement to survive outside a bodybag. HOWEVER, I would suggest that there is a rather large segment of the player base that never intends to play those types of quests. That building characters to survive in those quests, with full groups, will in fact gimp them for play in the fashion those players are more likely to engage in. Small groups or solo play.

So perhaps a little disclaimer section would be appropriate. For general play in solo and small groups (2 or 3) that certain basic stat levels are appropriate, but that for the current End Game and EPIC play (which often presumes 32 point builds as well!), that other conventions about stat allocation are customary.

A 28 point starter character has some serious tradeoffs to make in final stats if you drop a lot of those points into CON. It is not a clear win for many character types if solo/small group is your expected play mix.

Zachski

03-16-2011, 08:22 PM

Saying that we should dump all other stats for constitution is a strawman. That's not what anyone is saying, merely that constitution is a necessary stat for all, but certainly not the ONLY stat that's important.

For one thing, 8/6 con builds can only be accomplished by really REALLY experienced players that likely already have tons of gear in the first place.

I.E., not newbies or even a vet rolling an alt on another server.

High HP != Zerger. A newbie that rolls, say, an Elven Wizard with 18 Int, 6 Con, and 18 Dex would find themselves probably avoiding a lot of damage early on due to AC.

Then at around level 10, they find that their high AC is becoming meaningless, enemies seem to flat-out ignore it, and casters murder them faster than they murder casters.

And then they find out that they really do need con, because there's some damage that just can't be avoided, and a party mistake that you can survive from is better than a party mistake that you die to. I mean, in a perfect party, sure, it's possible that Sorcerers and Wizards and all the other squishies don't get hit, but wouldn't you rather be able to survive mistakes than demand that every single person you meet is perfection incarnate?

So, what do they do? They get upset, rage that nothing indicated how important HP was (just telling players that CON raises HP does nothing in a scenario where they are used to games where casters have extremely low HP), get furious at Turbine for "exploiting players" by "demanding that they buy a Heart of Wood to correct a mistake they didn't know they made", and then quit the game, calling it stupid for having such a "sharp learning curve"

It is better that they are told to have at least 12 con. This still gives them plenty of stat points to put into other things. HP is both a necessity and a cushion, and the best way to avoid damage is to mitigate it through means like Blur and Displacement and flat out positioning yourself correctly. It's easier to learn if you have more HP than if you have less, but then rely on a flat stat like AC to save you from doom.

Remember, while an 8 CON build is possible, you need so many resources that newbies generally don't have. Let them learn when they're more experienced how to do it when they can handle it, rather than giving them a path that they are not ready for.

Also, remember that your build doesn't affect just you, it affects other players who party with you. After all, a healing-specced Cleric that has to raise you from the dead constantly is a drain on party resources. Not to mention you kill a 10% XP bonus for everyone if you die. And newbies with 8 CON will die more than newbies with 14 CON. No man is an island, especially in this game.

Which reminds me...

I think one thing you should add to the guide, FordyTwo, is that different classes have different HP growths, and thus different CON needs. A Barbarian has the highest HP growth, and so needs the least amount of CON to be on par. Fighter and Paladin have the second highest HP growths, so they actually need a bit more CON than Barbarian. Rogues, Rangers, Bards, Clerics, Favored Souls, and Monks have less HP growth, so they need more CON. Wizards and Sorcerers have the least HP growth, so they need more CON to compensate.

As such, I think you should add that, in fact, the less melee oriented you are, the more CON you need to compensate. If we're talking absolute bottom line, 12 for Fighters and Paladins. 14 for Rogues/Rangers/Bards/Clerics/Favored Souls/Monks. And 16 for Wizards and Sorcerers. Barbarians should go for higher CON regardless of their high HP growth so that they have the possibility of taking the PrE that lets them sacrifice HP to deal more damage with each swing.

Maybe at least add a note that says "Be careful about where you invest your ability points. Fixing them requires either starting your character completely over, or purchasing an item called a Lesser Heart of Wood from the DDO store, which may require you to purchase points using real money."

Antheal

03-16-2011, 08:42 PM

* Intelligence

Learning ability and reasoning! Affects skill points gained at each level and the amount of bonus spell points for some classes.

* Wisdom

Willpower and intuition! Affects your willpower (Will save) and the amount of bonus spell points for some classes.

* Charisma

Personality and magnetism! Determines how well you influence non-player characters (NPCs) and affects the amount of bonus spell points for some classes.

Would it really be too much effort to state which classes?

Therigar

03-16-2011, 09:08 PM

14 Con IS the average (well, 6 point investment), at least among anyone with a clue, though it is a *median* value, not a mean value.

Not average as a mathematical term.

When D&D first started there was the concept of the "normal" or "average" human being whose stats could be expressed in D&D terms. Initially 10 was the average. Anything above 10 was exponentially better and anything below was exponentially worse.

Adventurers were special because they had one or more stat in the exponentially better category and few if any in the exponentially worse. In the very early days when stats were rolled using 3d6 and in order this didn't always work out. But, the mathematical average of 3d6 was 10.5 which served to set the 10 point "average" or "normal" parameter.

As adventurers when we had a sub-normal stat it was often very problematic. We'd either work out an in-game rationale or we would, often, reroll. It made generating characters a full night's game session in many cases. It wasn't long before we went to 4d6 and discard the low number.

The notion of set minimum stats is relatively speaking new (although not unique to DDO having been used in other D&D products) as is the distribution of build points. The minimum stats can be thought of as representing the "average" or "normal" population that is not cut out for the adventuring life. Only adventurers can have stats above the "average."

What Talon is saying is that DDO's gaming community has effectively shifted this with respect to CON. The average isn't 8 it is 14. This influences the game because it puts a 3 HP per level boost into effect that monsters have to overcome in combat so monsters hit harder. It makes characters live more easily which means monster HP and/or AC gets boosted to keep them at an appropriate challenge level. All of this is w/o any intentional effort -- it is simply the byproduct of player bias and its effect on the game.

And, to some degree this is justified. After all, it takes an adventurer to deal with most monsters -- otherwise any old pole dancer would be doing it. :D

Keep in mind that this isn't about the pros or cons of CON per se. It is about how information gets presented to the new or begining player that is the target audience for this 101.

No matter how you phrase it, it is incorrect to say CON is never a dump stat (except in the most technical sense as was pointed out in an earlier post). What is correct is to note that not investing some build points into CON is something that should only be done for extraordinary reasons. Among those might be that you plan to solo almost exclusively or you are building with only 28 build points and have stat targets that cannot be met any other way.

Let's say you are building a rogue using 28 build points. You want to maximize AC because you know that AC ~70 is nearly untouchable thru Vale of Twilight and you have access to the monk class. You want Combat Expertise because of the +5 to AC and you want GTWF because you know that is key to melee combat. You prefer halfling because that is the uber race and besides Bilbo was a thief and that is the basis of all D&D halfling = thief lore. You also know that STR on halflings is low but it is a key element in all damage calculations.

Alright, it is now time to make some choices about your stats. You need INT for the CE, it is the key stat for DD & Search and it affects your skill points and you need a lot for rogue. You need DEX for the GTWF and for the impact on AC. You need WIS for the monk synergy plus it affects Spot. You need STR in order to not suck in melee and with a 6 base you'll be overburdened as soon as you grab the second or third really heavy item (or get hit by exhaustion). What would you like in those stats?

I'm guessing 14 INT. If you go 13 its enough but you lose a skill point, plus 14 is an even number which D&D and DDO rewards. You've got to have 17 DEX and you're new, so tomes are probably not in your thinking. But 16 will do even though 18 would be better. The even number here is even more important because race and class enhancements along with stat increases are an even number.

Then there's WIS which you can leave at 8 but then you're not really getting much out of that monk splash. Probably should raise it to something. Not really sure what yet. And of course you need points in STR. Hardly seems worth it stopping at 12. If you go to 16 that's a huge investment but 14 would be nice.

Now, I'm going to stop at 13 INT and 16 DEX with 14 STR -- just 3 of the stats I'm looking at right now. That is 5 + 6 + 10 build points. I've used 21 of 28 build points and not touched WIS or CON.

I need to know the pros and cons of choosing CON over WIS. If I put 6 points into CON I'm probably putting the last point into INT and leaving WIS at 8. It means I won't get to my ~70 AC goal. OTOH if I'm not even thinking about tomes I've got to toss 3 points into DEX to get the 17. Even more probable if I get forum advice to put my stat increases into STR (you know that's what you thought when you read I was putting them into DEX).

So, what to do with the last 4 points?

How realistic is the goal of high AC on a 28 point halfling rogue/monk? If I get there how survivable is the character if it has lower HP?

I recently calculated a beholder proof 77 AC for Therigar if I reincarnate him as a halfling and a minimally buffed 85. DEX target is 34 and WIS target is 28 including +2 tomes and +6 items. That means base plus enhancements of 26 and 20.

On a 28 point build with 19/1 split a character will hit 26 DEX with race & class enhancements plus stat levels in DEX. They'll have only a 14 WIS max. That is -4 from my beholder proof 77 number. Taking AC effects from class differences into account drops the numbers another 7 points.

It still gives a highly respectible 66 beholder proof AC which is almost guarantee against damage in Vale and below quests on all but natural 20s. Toss in a Dusk Heart and you've a character nearly untouchable.

So, is it worth leaving CON at 8 for that character?

Some people will say yes. Some will say no. But the key thing is that the individual player should be the one to decide. They need to know all the elements that go into the build and stat decisions before starting the character.

Thankfully, I'll never use DDO's 101 guide. As rolled out today it is not actually helpful and, after reading people's responses in this thread, it is clear that actually helping players make their own choices because they understand the game and the consequences of each choice isn't the goal.

The 101 will be like the default builds -- useless. A fine example of Turbine engineering. :(

sirgog

03-16-2011, 09:25 PM

Theolin

03-16-2011, 09:32 PM

Something about you only get the "next" bonus to X if you have an even number for your stat. Ending(lvl20) on a odd number doesn't help

wax_on_wax_off

03-17-2011, 01:35 AM

Now, I'm going to stop at 13 INT and 16 DEX with 14 STR -- just 3 of the stats I'm looking at right now. That is 5 + 6 + 10 build points. I've used 21 of 28 build points and not touched WIS or CON.

Wow, a perfect storm.

Ok,

1. This assumes that someone owns the monk class but not 32 point builds which is unlikely.
2. This assumes that someone is trying to make an AC build without the resources to back it up, which is very newbish (resources implies high level character which implies 32 point builds, see point 1).
3. This assumes that someone is newbish enough to attempt to make a hugely MAD (multiple stat dependent) character while being very new to the game (see points 1 and 2).

Overall, I find your scenario implausible at best.

Additionally, you're trying to make this 1 issue responsible for multiple character creation challenges. Namely;
1. Don't make MAD characters until you have 32 pointers and have enough resources to provide +2 stat tomes at least.
2. Don't make an AC build until you know the pain involved.

Artos_Fabril

03-17-2011, 02:24 AM

[...]
And, to some degree this is justified. After all, it takes an adventurer to deal with most monsters -- otherwise any old pole dancer would be doing it. :D

Keep in mind that this isn't about the pros or cons of CON per se. It is about how information gets presented to the new or begining player that is the target audience for this 101.

No matter how you phrase it, it is incorrect to say CON is never a dump stat (except in the most technical sense as was pointed out in an earlier post). What is correct is to note that not investing some build points into CON is something that should only be done for extraordinary reasons. Among those might be that you plan to solo almost exclusively or you are building with only 28 build points and have stat targets that cannot be met any other way.

Let's say you are building a rogue using 28 build points. You want to maximize AC because you know that AC ~70 is nearly untouchable thru Vale of Twilight and you have access to the monk class. You want Combat Expertise because of the +5 to AC and you want GTWF because you know that is key to melee combat. You prefer halfling because that is the uber race and besides Bilbo was a thief and that is the basis of all D&D halfling = thief lore. You also know that STR on halflings is low but it is a key element in all damage calculations.

Alright, it is now time to make some choices about your stats. You need INT for the CE, it is the key stat for DD & Search and it affects your skill points and you need a lot for rogue. You need DEX for the GTWF and for the impact on AC. You need WIS for the monk synergy plus it affects Spot. You need STR in order to not suck in melee and with a 6 base you'll be overburdened as soon as you grab the second or third really heavy item (or get hit by exhaustion). What would you like in those stats?

I'm guessing 14 INT. If you go 13 its enough but you lose a skill point, plus 14 is an even number which D&D and DDO rewards. You've got to have 17 DEX and you're new, so tomes are probably not in your thinking. But 16 will do even though 18 would be better. The even number here is even more important because race and class enhancements along with stat increases are an even number.

Then there's WIS which you can leave at 8 but then you're not really getting much out of that monk splash. Probably should raise it to something. Not really sure what yet. And of course you need points in STR. Hardly seems worth it stopping at 12. If you go to 16 that's a huge investment but 14 would be nice.

Now, I'm going to stop at 13 INT and 16 DEX with 14 STR -- just 3 of the stats I'm looking at right now. That is 5 + 6 + 10 build points. I've used 21 of 28 build points and not touched WIS or CON.

I need to know the pros and cons of choosing CON over WIS. If I put 6 points into CON I'm probably putting the last point into INT and leaving WIS at 8. It means I won't get to my ~70 AC goal. OTOH if I'm not even thinking about tomes I've got to toss 3 points into DEX to get the 17. Even more probable if I get forum advice to put my stat increases into STR (you know that's what you thought when you read I was putting them into DEX).

So, what to do with the last 4 points?

How realistic is the goal of high AC on a 28 point halfling rogue/monk? If I get there how survivable is the character if it has lower HP?

I recently calculated a beholder proof 77 AC for Therigar if I reincarnate him as a halfling and a minimally buffed 85. DEX target is 34 and WIS target is 28 including +2 tomes and +6 items. That means base plus enhancements of 26 and 20.

On a 28 point build with 19/1 split a character will hit 26 DEX with race & class enhancements plus stat levels in DEX. They'll have only a 14 WIS max. That is -4 from my beholder proof 77 number. Taking AC effects from class differences into account drops the numbers another 7 points.

It still gives a highly respectible 66 beholder proof AC which is almost guarantee against damage in Vale and below quests on all but natural 20s. Toss in a Dusk Heart and you've a character nearly untouchable.

So, is it worth leaving CON at 8 for that character?

Some people will say yes. Some will say no. But the key thing is that the individual player should be the one to decide. They need to know all the elements that go into the build and stat decisions before starting the character.
[...]
You make some good, well spoken points. In particular, I agree that the way to get new players to build better characters is to explain to them what decisions they're making at character creation, which are easily reversible and which require a re-roll (or LR) to fix. Letting them make decisions, even mistakes, is fine. Explaining the long-term repercussions of those decisions is better.

But I disagree with some of your assumptions:
1) A new player will know enough to build towards a 70 AC, but not enough to know that past vale it will still be virtually worthless, or pros and cons of HP (to speak nothing of "grazing hits", damage that bypasses AC, etc)

2) 16 dex for a halfling is 6 points, the 17th is only 2 more, not 3.

3) You would get recommendations to put level-ups in strength, rather than to not attempt an AC build rogue splash monk on 28 points as a first character.

4) For that build, after advising against it completely, I'd propose 13STR (power attack)/17 dex GTWF/14 con (HPs)/13 int (CE)/12 wis (AC)...

-about that advising against it completely: a rogue doesn't need all that much AC, the goal is to not have agro, if you do have agro, you're better also have the enemies blinded, so that you get your sneak attacks, if the enemies are blinded they've got a 50% miss chance already (effectively AC=monsterAB+10). If you're not getting sneak attacks, you might as well be playing a rogue splashed ranger or fighter.

-By the way, did you forget the significant gear dependency that 70 AC build has? It's not a new player build in any case.

In the end, I don't think that the compendium is going to reach enough people, or impart enough knowledge to make a significant difference, and for any specific build, the boards are (or at least were, but that's a whole other soap box) a better place to get build advice than this has any hope of being.

As far as this compendium entry goes, maybe a better entry would be:

Constitution: This Ability Score affects your hit points gained per level, your fortitude saves, and the availability of Monks' Earth Stance and Half-Elves' Barbarian Dilettante Feat. It is also the basis of the concentration skill, which is important to Monks and Spellcasters. Many players WILL discriminate against low-con or low HP characters when forming groups and raids. A score of 14 is therefore often recommended, especially for newer players.

**Red meant to denote hyperlinks to the appropriate entries.

I don't remember where on the boards I first heard this, but...
"It doesn't matter what else your character can do, when HP hits -10, all you can do is ride in a backpack."

wax_on_wax_off

03-17-2011, 02:37 AM

*snip*

I don't remember where on the boards I first heard this, but...
"It doesn't matter what else your character can do, when HP hits -10, all you can do is ride in a backpack."

+1. I tried to say similar things but you were certainly more eloquent :)

Dark_Helmet

03-17-2011, 03:03 AM

In my ongoing effort to gather and present information for newer DDO players with lingering questions, the Character Stat 101 guide has been published (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Character_Stats_101) today.

Constructive feedback and criticism is encouraged! I'd love to hear feedback from you (the community!) on information that's potentially missing from this guide, or that you feel could be presented in a better manner.
Nice start.

How about:
Unlike the real game we have licensed, having a 0 con doesn't kill you. All you get is a little bit stunned and then you are on your way. a 0 mental stat let you run around like a chicken with your head cut off, but you can't cast or drink a potion.

So make sure to ignore everything you learned from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm):

Ability Score Loss
Some attacks reduce the opponent’s score in one or more abilities. This loss can be temporary (ability damage) or permanent (ability drain).

While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.

•Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.
•Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
•Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.
•Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
•Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.
•Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.

tihocan

03-17-2011, 08:14 AM

A few small points (quotes are from the guide):

Every rank offers up some Action Points
This is incorrect. Suggestion: "The first four ranks of each level grant you one extra Action Point." (maybe add: "(while reaching the fifth rank allows you to level up)").

Don’t forget that some classes get extra ones beyond what is shown in the chart!
Replace "ones" by "feats".

Intelligence (...) affects (...) the amount of bonus spell points for some classes.
Replace "the amount of bonus spell points" by "the effectiveness of offensive spells and the amount of spell points" (I don't think "bonus" is helpful here, although it's no big deal to keep it either).
Same remark for Wisdom & Charisma.

A feat is used to (...) grant you the ability to use specials (...) skills.
(...)
Enhancements (...) can unlock special abilities
Using "skills" and "abilities" in these sentences may be potentially confusing, because they do not refer to the same thing as "skills" and "abilities" defined in the rest of the text.
I can't find a better suggestion right now, but ideally there would exist a word you could use here that would prevent such confusion...

bryanmeerkat

03-17-2011, 08:22 AM

if your con is only a base 10 ...you have dumped it

on the other hand ...at least your trying to do the right thing

Yeah 10 is dumping con and many new people reading this may take that as meaning put my con to 10 , think that is worse than not mentioning it at all .

Put at minimum 6 build points into con is the rule I like best

amethystdragon

03-17-2011, 08:41 AM

I first want to say that I really like what you are doing, and wish that something like this had been more readily available when I had started to play.

I have a suggestion for the Enhancement section. Please, Please, Please point out exactly how many AP that everyone gets per level. Earlier when you say that you rank up 5 times per level, and get an AP at each rank up is misleading. Saying something more a long the lines of "Each level is divided into five ranks. On the first four ranks you will earn an Action Point, that can be spent of Enhancements, and upon reaching the fifth rank you level up." might be a bit more clear.

I also agree with other posters who have said, that you should explain that it is for every two points that are put into a stat that they will get an increase into what ever benefits that stat gives you.

Talon_Moonshadow

03-17-2011, 09:40 AM

Talon_Moonshadow

03-17-2011, 09:56 AM

If I were into giving rep I'd give you a +1. You get "it" -- in this case the it being that powergamers dictate how DDO is being developed and played.

It is unfortunately true. But the entire 101 could be replaced by the official build thread and the 20 or so "approved" powergamer builds. Could even make it easier by not even allowing players to play anything else.

Save us all a lot of trouble.

Or....

We could accept that DDO is D&D based and that the freedom to make choices is part of the appeal of the game. We could understand that our purpose is not to tell people what must be done but to tell them what can and probably will happen when specific things are done.

As I pointed out, a low CON character might solo very well. It might perform poorly when grouping, though, because of a change in tactics. Brute force is the standard group tactic and low CON doesn't perform well in that situation. So, a perfectly playable character might become unplayable grouping.

If this is explained to a new player then they'll be able to make an informed decision about CON.

This applies to any stat.

The 101 would be better if it advocated understanding and focused on the pluses and minuses of each stat decision.

The times that I wish I had a whole lot more HP, is when I'm doing certain raids and I have to use the tactics that other players tell me to use, and do not have the freedom to play the way I need to to survive with less HP. (or like in Tor, when my Wizard was told to go **** off that Dragon with a Firewall and stand in his mouth until he dies! :eek: )

No quest or raid ever came with an instruction manual from the Devs telling us which tactics to use to finish it. It was the players who decided how to go about it. And in many cases it was the players with the most HP and mana pots who made those decisions.

In dungeons where I'm allowed to use my own tactics, I can usually find an alternative to enduring damage until completion.

But now we have the "official" Turbine opinion about how chars should be designed to play the game.

When I have given build advice, I have always phrased my sugestions as "most players recommend a high Con" or "find it easier to play with a high Con"... something like that.

In D&D a stat of 10 was considered an average human stat in that area. It might be common for combat adventurers to be above average in physical stats, and below average in non-physical stats. (the average villager is a little smarter, wiser and more likable than guys who live by the sword and chase treasure to make a living)

Talon_Moonshadow

03-17-2011, 10:11 AM

I've never seen someone give this advice. Could you maybe find a couple examples of it?

You are right, they do not give that specific advice. But it is common to brag about their HPs, with numbers that I do not believe they can get with only a 14 Con.

And the advice for arcanes is max casting stat first, max Con second and dump everything else.

Some people give similar advice for melees for Str first, Con second, dump verything else unless you need a prereq. (monks and Pallies might be an exception.)

dkyle

03-17-2011, 10:23 AM

You are right, they do not give that specific advice. But it is common to brag about their HPs, with numbers that I do not believe they can get with only a 14 Con.

I'm pretty sure they're not putting levelups in CON, either. 18 base CON makes sense for most Casters, and some Barbs, and Fighters, though. Not much else to do with those stat points.

And the advice for arcanes is max casting stat first, max Con second and dump everything else.

Some people give similar advice for melees for Str first, Con second, dump verything else unless you need a prereq. (monks and Pallies might be an exception.)

Both solid advice.

Talon_Moonshadow

03-17-2011, 10:31 AM

You make some good, well spoken points. In particular, I agree that the way to get new players to build better characters is to explain to them what decisions they're making at character creation, which are easily reversible and which require a re-roll (or LR) to fix. Letting them make decisions, even mistakes, is fine. Explaining the long-term repercussions of those decisions is better.

But I disagree with some of your assumptions:
1) A new player will know enough to build towards a 70 AC, but not enough to know that past vale it will still be virtually worthless, or pros and cons of HP (to speak nothing of "grazing hits", damage that bypasses AC, etc)

2) 16 dex for a halfling is 6 points, the 17th is only 2 more, not 3.

3) You would get recommendations to put level-ups in strength, rather than to not attempt an AC build rogue splash monk on 28 points as a first character.

4) For that build, after advising against it completely, I'd propose 13STR (power attack)/17 dex GTWF/14 con (HPs)/13 int (CE)/12 wis (AC)...

-about that advising against it completely: a rogue doesn't need all that much AC, the goal is to not have agro, if you do have agro, you're better also have the enemies blinded, so that you get your sneak attacks, if the enemies are blinded they've got a 50% miss chance already (effectively AC=monsterAB+10). If you're not getting sneak attacks, you might as well be playing a rogue splashed ranger or fighter.

-By the way, did you forget the significant gear dependency that 70 AC build has? It's not a new player build in any case.

In the end, I don't think that the compendium is going to reach enough people, or impart enough knowledge to make a significant difference, and for any specific build, the boards are (or at least were, but that's a whole other soap box) a better place to get build advice than this has any hope of being.

As far as this compendium entry goes, maybe a better entry would be:

Constitution: This Ability Score affects your hit points gained per level, your fortitude saves, and the availability of Monks' Earth Stance and Half-Elves' Barbarian Dilettante Feat. It is also the basis of the concentration skill, which is important to Monks and Spellcasters. Many players WILL discriminate against low-con or low HP characters when forming groups and raids. A score of 14 is therefore often recommended, especially for newer players.

**Red meant to denote hyperlinks to the appropriate entries.

I don't remember where on the boards I first heard this, but...
"It doesn't matter what else your character can do, when HP hits -10, all you can do is ride in a backpack."

I like the hyperlink idea. I was going to suggest something similar.

The first page should be something similar to how you have it now.
But provide links to more detailed information. So players do not have to get overwhelmed by to much information, but have the option to find out more about something specific if they want to.

You can even have statements about what most players recommend about the stats if you wish.

Sirea

03-17-2011, 10:40 AM

Angelus_dead

03-17-2011, 10:45 AM

Some people give similar advice for melees for Str first, Con second, dump verything else unless you need a prereq. (monks and Pallies might be an exception.)
The more general way to state it is:
Constitution should usually be your second-highest stat, unless you need Dexterity for AC, GTWF, or AA.

TheDjinnFor

03-17-2011, 10:55 AM

Did you mean to say 14?

Because if you look at the threads in the last couple days you will realize 10con gets people auto-declined from groups thanks to myddo.

rofl :D

Thucydides04

03-17-2011, 10:57 AM

Did you mean to say 14?

Because if you look at the threads in the last couple days you will realize 10con gets people auto-declined from groups thanks to myddo.

LOL, who is declining people because they have con lower than 14? If you are, you obviously lack the ability to get things done.

Con < 10 can be problematic for certain classes, however well played toons are fine without putting ten build points into con. Furthermore, spending more than 6 build points on a 28 point toon for a newb is highly inadvisable. I usually only do 4-6 build points into con. Seriously, the HP issue is because people do not wear con/GFL/toughness items, or craft GS HP items.

Advice to newbs: Make your GS ITEM first, your weapon 2nd. Metalline of PG is fine, but having less than 400 hp is problematic. It does not take much work to get 400+hp on even arcanes.

To the OP: I would put that con is not the only way to boost your HPs. There are 30+20+25(45)= 75(95) easy HPs out there to help boost totals.

Thucydides04

03-17-2011, 10:59 AM

I'm pretty sure they're not putting levelups in CON, either. 18 base CON makes sense for most Casters, and some Barbs, and Fighters, though. Not much else to do with those stat points.

Both solid advice.

Barbs have decent reflex saves, esp. with imp. uncanny dodge running. Taking half damage because you actually put 6 points into dex and maybe slotted dex somewhere is better than the failed save and full damage vs. the +20hps.

dkyle

03-17-2011, 11:26 AM

Expecting 18 to be the norm is pushing it a bit I think.

Did I say norm? No, that it "makes sense" for most Casters and some melee. I still consider 6 build points in CON the norm. In some cases, it makes sense to exceed the norm.

Talon seemed to suggest that 18 base CON was simply absurd.

TheDjinnFor

03-17-2011, 11:36 AM

How I would personally do it. Additions in green, removals in red (can't recall how to do a strike-through).

Ways Your DDO Character Grows

Aside from discovering and earning better equipment (e.g. weapons, armor, trinkets, etc) this visual aid represents the four ways every DDO character grows as they gather more and more experience.

The Relationship (& Difference) between Levels & Ranks

In DDO, earning a new "Level" is a big deal, thus, it takes some effort. To gain a level you first need to earn enough experience to obtain five “ranks.” However, each rank is useful too. Every rank offers up some Action Points, which are spent on buying enhancements for your character. Enhancements are incredibly potent and highly flexible – they're one of the easiest ways to dramatically customize your character! Often times, a new level grants you extra character-building choices; you'll get to pick from a pool of feats and choose an ability to permanently increase. Plus, essential character stats (like Base Attack Bonus, explained next) are automatically increased. Look at the chart below to get a feel for when you’ll get to pick your feats and ability increases! Don’t forget that some classes get bonus feats beyond what is shown in the chart!

Base Attack Bonus

In DDO, your Base Attack Bonus (BAB) is a small number with big consequences. BAB determines your ability to hit enemies with both melee and ranged weapons; the higher your BAB, the better your combat accuracy! Additionally, BAB sets the speed (number of attacks) at which a character fights with melee or ranged attacks.

Some classes, like Wizards and Sorcerors, have a 'bad' BAB progression; they get much less BAB than every other class for each level. This doesn't affect spellcasting, but it makes it hard for them to fight with weapons like other characters do! Other classes have 'excellent' BAB, such as fighters and barbarians; they are very fast and very accurate with their attacks. The rest of the classes have 'average' BAB.

Skills vs. Feats

Every character in DDO has skills and feats! Each time a player character achieves a new level, that player will earn "skill points" that can be used to improve a selection of skills such as balance, jump, and hide. Increase the point value of a skill, and the better a character will be at said skill! A feat is used to improve combat abilities, further increase your capability with skills, or even grant you the ability to use special items and skills in-game. Some feats are available to all classes and races, but some are race and/or class specific.

Tip! Skills are improved by spending skill points, and both skills and feats can be improved via enhancements!

Ability Scores

Every character in DDO has Ability Scores, regardless of their race or class. Ability Scores affect a variety of things, but the main thing to remember is that they're consistent. For example, increasing your strength Ability Score will always increase your muscle power, thereby affecting your chance to hit, and damage, enemies.

Strength

Muscle power! Affects your chance to strike a foe with melee attacks and damage. Strength also increases your carrying capacity.

Dexterity

Coordination and agility! Affects your primary physical defense (your Armor Class, or AC), your ability to dodge certain magical attacks (Reflex saves), and the accuracy of your ranged attacks.

Constitution

Health (hit points)! Constitution lets you suffer more damage before dying, and improves your ability to endure physical strain (Fortitude save). Keeping this Ability Score no lower than 12 is highly encouraged, even if you're making a character who isn't a melee style.

Intelligence

Learning ability and reasoning! Affects skill points gained at each level and the amount of bonus spell points for some classes.

Wisdom

Willpower and intuition! Affects your willpower (Will save) and the amount of bonus spell points for some classes.

Charisma

Personality and magnetism! Determines how well you influence non-player characters (NPCs) and affects the amount of bonus spell points for some classes.

You can give a temporary boost to your ability scores in a variety of ways, including items, enhancements, and spells. You can also use special, rare artifacts called tomes which will give you a permanent increase, much like a level up does!

Tip! Some class abilities and feats require you to have a “minimum” permanent amount of a particular Ability Score. Keep that in mind when picking your ability increases! Spellcasters also must have a minimum Ability Score to cast their spells, but this can include items and other temporary effects.

Armor Class

Armor Class (AC) is a number that represents a character's ability to avoid being hit in combat. Every character has a base AC of 10 in DDO, but that number goes up based on various factors such as race, class, feat and equipment choices. Remember, not all bonuses stack with each other (see bonus types, below). Getting enough AC to become unhittable is a difficult task!

What's an Enhancement?

An enhancement is an advancement method in DDO that – you guessed it – can "enhance" various aspects of your character. Enhancements can provide bonuses to a skill, feat or even an ability score. They can also unlock special abilities based on your race, class, or other character qualities. To purchase enhancements you need Action Points, earned each time you achieve a new rank. Enhancements are learned by visiting class trainers, and can be purchased whenever you want. It's possible to save up your action points for a really expensive enhancement later – so keep that in mind!

Tip! Enhancements are different than ability scores, skills, and feats; enhancements are never permanent choices. You may reset your chosen enhancements for once every three days or so, for a small sum of platinum (in-game currency).

Reflex, Fortitude & Will Saves

We covered AC, but there's one other element to your defense – saves! When an enemy casts a spell directed at you, in order to resist or reduce its effects, you need to "save." Each spell has type of save associated with it.

For example, a Fireball spell requires a Reflex save to determine whether or not you avoid being hit by it. A spell that would hold your character still (e.g. Hold Person) is a Will save to resist, because said spell is attacking your willpower. Saves also come into play when avoiding things like traps. There are only three, and each one is tied to a single Ability Score.

Reflex Save (Dexterity)

Your ability to avoid damage due to agility and reaction time – like dodging a trap!

Fortitude Save (Constitution)

Your ability to withstand attacks that target physical stamina – like deadly poison!

Will Save (Wisdom)

Your ability to withstand mental influence or control due to willpower – like a psychic charm!

Bonus Types

Many bonuses to skills and ability scores have a 'type' attached to them, like "enhancement bonus" or "resistance bonus". This is important! Most bonuses do not stack with bonuses of the same type unless they specifically say otherwise; only the highest applies. This means that if you wear gloves giving you an enhancement bonus of +2 to strength, and you put on a belt that gives you another +1 enhancement bonus to strength, you will only get the effect provided by the +2 gloves.

Asking For Assistance

Still have questions? Feel free to ask them in the comments below, or even in-game by typing "/advice" or "/a" before your question. The "/advice" chat channel gives players who have large amounts of basic DDO knowledge a chance to share it with new players!

jkm

03-17-2011, 01:33 PM

Con < 10 can be problematic for certain classes, however well played toons are fine without putting ten build points into con. Furthermore, spending more than 6 build points on a 28 point toon for a newb is highly inadvisable. I usually only do 4-6 build points into con. Seriously, the HP issue is because people do not wear con/GFL/toughness items, or craft GS HP items.

Advice to newbs: Make your GS ITEM first, your weapon 2nd. Metalline of PG is fine, but having less than 400 hp is problematic. It does not take much work to get 400+hp on even arcanes.

To the OP: I would put that con is not the only way to boost your HPs. There are 30+20+25(45)= 75(95) easy HPs out there to help boost totals.

Step back and think about the reason they are posting this in the first place. This looks like a response to customer surveys that there is little explanation of game mechanics and that the game is too complex to understand. This isn't something that plague people at the levels you are talking about (<14). [Its also kind of silly to document a game that is so heavily documented already, but that is corporate america for you]

The issues for the players that are leaving are 2 fold:

1. Heroic Durability - The absolute power of this feat hides build deficiencies for the first 3-4 levels allowing players to become attached to the character. When its power finally starts to wane, the difficulty in playing the character increases level by level until finally you just quit. If I had to guess, I'd say the attrition rate of players who have a 1st character with a CON of less than 12 is 80% or higher.

2. That the "Paths" are not User Content - There should be an SDK for building a Path that can be submitted to a Forum/Turbine Path Steering Committee to be uploaded onto the server so that New Characters can use them.

Each Path should have 28/32 point variants and have a rating system of various attributes that would be assigned by the SteerCo for the new player to see:

some proposed traits (out of 10):

End Game Viability
Survivability
Soloability
Gear Dependence

For example, a 28 point MiniMonster with Halfling Dragonmarks

[just making **** up here]
EGV: 8
Surv: 8
Solo: 8
GD: 6

However, this path would be barred for all new players because of not having access to dragonmarks. It would also be barred from F2P players who do not have Monk.

Thucydides04

03-17-2011, 02:09 PM

Step back and think about the reason they are posting this in the first place. This looks like a response to customer surveys that there is little explanation of game mechanics and that the game is too complex to understand. This isn't something that plague people at the levels you are talking about (<14). [Its also kind of silly to document a game that is so heavily documented already, but that is corporate america for you]

The issues for the players that are leaving are 2 fold:

1. Heroic Durability - The absolute power of this feat hides build deficiencies for the first 3-4 levels allowing players to become attached to the character. When its power finally starts to wane, the difficulty in playing the character increases level by level until finally you just quit. If I had to guess, I'd say the attrition rate of players who have a 1st character with a CON of less than 12 is 80% or higher.

2. That the "Paths" are not User Content - There should be an SDK for building a Path that can be submitted to a Forum/Turbine Path Steering Committee to be uploaded onto the server so that New Characters can use them.

Each Path should have 28/32 point variants and have a rating system of various attributes that would be assigned by the SteerCo for the new player to see:

some proposed traits (out of 10):

End Game Viability
Survivability
Soloability
Gear Dependence

For example, a 28 point MiniMonster with Halfling Dragonmarks

[just making **** up here]
EGV: 8
Surv: 8
Solo: 8
GD: 6

However, this path would be barred for all new players because of not having access to dragonmarks. It would also be barred from F2P players who do not have Monk.

I think my statement addresses the problem quite well. every 2 build points nets 20 hps at cap. There is no reason outside of an arcane that any class should be putting more than 6 build points into con. There are ample other sources for hps in this game. People need educated on these sources. Not wearin a +6 con item and GFL with a heavy fort item is completely unnacceptable. Pumpin more points into con does not fix this issue. Minos is easy to get as well. +6 con item = 60 hps, Minos = 20, GFL = 30, that is 110 hps right there.

I just rolled a haggler on a 2nd acct and leveled it while tring my main. All it did was stand at dungeon entrances and buff the group while we ran the quest. At 20 she had ~230 hps and I took her into an ev6 w/o any of the items I mentioned. She died 1 time. Afterward, I said this unnacceptable and sent her some taps and a con item, now she has ~350 hps. She does not die at all when I run her unless I am toting her stone for convenience. If I gave her a tome and +2 exc con and a shroud hp item she would be standing at 430 hps which is plenty for a non melee.

Talon_Moonshadow

03-17-2011, 02:28 PM

Did I say norm? No, that it "makes sense" for most Casters and some melee. I still consider 6 build points in CON the norm. In some cases, it makes sense to exceed the norm.

Talon seemed to suggest that 18 base CON was simply absurd.

Not absurd.
But it shows that people value it more than most other stats. Which I don't....like...for lack of a better way to put it.

I think all stats are important. Some more important to some classes than others.
But I like well rounded, versitile chars. And I have learned how to not get beat up all of the time in most dungeons. So I do not need a ton of HP...........yet.

But if the Devs assume that every player has X many HP, and create new dungeons to challenge people based on that. Than my prefered playstyle suddenly becomes impossible.

And what I think many people are missing is that it devalues the worth of investing in high Con to those who already do so as well. Cause now everything will be adjusted to challenge those with the higher Con/HP. Driving everything up, like inflation.

My opinion is that thr D&D average is supposed to be a stat of 10.
If you have higher than 10, you have an advantage in that area.
If you have lower than 10, you have a disadvantage.

Those who have 8 Ints, have fewer skill points. Only one for most classes. Making them very lacking in skills. They will have only a single skill maxed. And as much as I hate it, very few skills that are not maxed have any value at all in DDO.

you cannot see hiding monsters without a good Spot skill. Can't intim without Intim. Can't jump, can't swim, heal, sneak....etc.

Of course in DDO this seldom really matters. But for some people it does matter. And I'd like the game to support people who value that more than HP.

Low Cha? Merchants charge you more, can't intim, UMD, use Wild Empathy, Turn Undead.....
Some of us actually care about those things.

Low Wisdom....those are the guys posting about how they can avoid being Held. The Pal/Rgrs who wonder why they can't cast spells at lvl 4....
Some people actually care about lvl 4 instead of lvl 20.

I like this game because of variety. But once the devs take the official position that the whole game should be swing, ENDURE, heal....then you just hurt those of us who want a char who can do more than that.

And you also hurt those who invest in that as well. They just don't realise it yet.
But once you force very gimp to build an uber char just like yours, you are no longer uber.

"and when everyone is Super....No one will be"

dkyle

03-17-2011, 02:44 PM

But if the Devs assume that every player has X many HP, and create new dungeons to challenge people based on that. Than my prefered playstyle suddenly becomes impossible.

And what I think many people are missing is that it devalues the worth of investing in high Con to those who already do so as well. Cause now everything will be adjusted to challenge those with the higher Con/HP. Driving everything up, like inflation.

HP values have certainly increased, but I don't think base CON has increased much in quite awhile. This is because past 14, the price goes up significantly.

14 isn't the sweet spot because the devs designed it to be with their content, it's the sweet spot because increasing it to that costs so little and gains so much.

My opinion is that thr D&D average is supposed to be a stat of 10.
If you have higher than 10, you have an advantage in that area.
If you have lower than 10, you have a disadvantage.

Average among adventurers, or among everyone? Because adventurers can easily exceed 10 in every stat with the point buy. Spreading out 28 points among all the stats gets 12 or 13 in all of them. In that sense, 12 or 13 is the average, and any deviation from that is advantage or disadvantage.

Those who have 8 Ints, have fewer skill points. Only one for most classes. Making them very lacking in skills. They will have only a single skill maxed. And as much as I hate it, very few skills that are not maxed have any value at all in DDO.

you cannot see hiding monsters without a good Spot skill. Can't intim without Intim. Can't jump, can't swim, heal, sneak....etc.

True for intim, very false for the others. Required spot, hide, and move silently vary wildly, but a +15 item, and nothing else, is more than enough in many quests. Jump needs only +10, from ranks and STR-mod, to get the capped amount of 40 once you hit high level and get a jump clicky belt. Swim and Heal are basically a waste of ranks no matter how high you get them, but what value they have, scales quite smoothly. There are no significant "pass/fail" lines like for intim.

Of course in DDO this seldom really matters. But for some people it does matter. And I'd like the game to support people who value that more than HP.

Then the game mechanics need to change.

Not by giving new players advice that doesn't make sense for them given how the game is currently designed.

jkm

03-17-2011, 09:38 PM

I think my statement addresses the problem quite well. every 2 build points nets 20 hps at cap. There is no reason outside of an arcane that any class should be putting more than 6 build points into con. There are ample other sources for hps in this game. People need educated on these sources. Not wearin a +6 con item and GFL with a heavy fort item is completely unnacceptable. Pumpin more points into con does not fix this issue. Minos is easy to get as well. +6 con item = 60 hps, Minos = 20, GFL = 30, that is 110 hps right there.

I just rolled a haggler on a 2nd acct and leveled it while tring my main. All it did was stand at dungeon entrances and buff the group while we ran the quest. At 20 she had ~230 hps and I took her into an ev6 w/o any of the items I mentioned. She died 1 time. Afterward, I said this unnacceptable and sent her some taps and a con item, now she has ~350 hps. She does not die at all when I run her unless I am toting her stone for convenience. If I gave her a tome and +2 exc con and a shroud hp item she would be standing at 430 hps which is plenty for a non melee.

no, because you basically skipped the character from level 1 to level 20. level 20 isn't the problem, its level 1-14. the problem is that people who have level 100's of characters forget how bad it was to play your first build and how much margin of error you needed.

if you were to say, take a cleric to level 9 and then advertise for a new player run of the pit elite. how many raise dead scrolls do you think you'd use whne the majority fo the people in the party have 70 hit points. now think about it from the perspective of the new player - dying is frustrating. it costs the party 10% xp, you are dependant on someone else to get you back alive (IF they get you back alive).

now, speaking to your bard example.

(assume 14 CON)

base bard at level 20 (120 Base + 20 HD + 40 CON + 10 Argo) = 190
base bard at level 10 (60 Base + 20 HD + 20 CON) = 100

(assume 8 CON)

level 20 (120 Base + 20 HD -10 CON + 10 Argo) = 140
level 10 (60 Base + 20 HD - 5 CON) = 75 HP

zex95966

03-17-2011, 11:36 PM

I'd love for it to add something about prestige classes. Something like:

Almost every class can obtain a powerful Prestige class! be sure to pick one up when leveling your character, a list of prestige classes and their requirements can be found here: http://ddowiki.com/page/Enhancements

something like that.

I think another important section to add would be explaining DC's, Spell penetration and saves better. many many people do not know about spell penetration and/or think it's the same thing as having a high DC or if looking at themselves, might think they don't need high saves if they have spell resistance. none of those is true, and really should be explained.

mystafyi

03-17-2011, 11:43 PM

I just rolled a haggler on a 2nd acct and leveled it while tring my main. All it did was stand at dungeon entrances and buff the group while we ran the quest. At 20 she had ~230 hps and I took her into an ev6 w/o any of the items I mentioned. She died 1 time. Afterward, I said this unnacceptable and sent her some taps and a con item, now she has ~350 hps. She does not die at all when I run her unless I am toting her stone for convenience. If I gave her a tome and +2 exc con and a shroud hp item she would be standing at 430 hps which is plenty for a non melee.

comparing a dual box piker toon is not relevant in any way to this thread.

Zenako

03-18-2011, 08:13 AM

no, because you basically skipped the character from level 1 to level 20. level 20 isn't the problem, its level 1-14. the problem is that people who have level 100's of characters forget how bad it was to play your first build and how much margin of error you needed.

if you were to say, take a cleric to level 9 and then advertise for a new player run of the pit elite. how many raise dead scrolls do you think you'd use whne the majority fo the people in the party have 70 hit points. now think about it from the perspective of the new player - dying is frustrating. it costs the party 10% xp, you are dependant on someone else to get you back alive (IF they get you back alive).

now, speaking to your bard example.

(assume 14 CON)

base bard at level 20 (120 Base + 20 HD + 40 CON + 10 Argo) = 190
base bard at level 10 (60 Base + 20 HD + 20 CON) = 100

(assume 8 CON)

level 20 (120 Base + 20 HD -10 CON + 10 Argo) = 140
level 10 (60 Base + 20 HD - 5 CON) = 75 HP

Why would you include the Argo boost to HIT points, but exclude so many other easy to get boosts. If you are making a simple core comparison include all likely boosts, or exclude them all, don't toss and extra 10 to one pile. Not that it changes your point a lot, but if you were to now add all the likely boosts one could expect to learn about and know and actually be able to employ at those levels the the delta hit points are still the same. The 14 CON toon will have 60 more HP at cap given all other things being the same. At 10th level the difference will be 30 HP.

Yes 30 is a large difference between 100 and 70 (unless penalty stats are 1/2 the normal boost, that should be -10 HP and -20 in your examples). That is having almost 50% more HP. But if the player has read a +2 tome (10 more HP for each case), has toughness Feat and same toughness enchanements (33 for each case), has an Improved False life item (20 for each) and a +4 CON item (another 20 for each case).

Now we are comparing (14 base) 100+10+33+20+20 = 183 vs
Now we are comparing (8 base) 70+10+33+20+20 = 153

While the magnitude of the difference is still 30, the impact of that difference is significantly smaller. Add in the hopeful fact that those point not spent in CON are usefully allocated to some other stat, and you may well have a more effective and survivable character overall.

I have seen far more high hit point noobs who rely on simply having enough HP to outlast the mobs, fall and die due to HP arrogance than I have seen lower HP toons getting one shoted. When on one of my clerics types, it is often quite easy to tell who views their survival as being the responsibility of someone else.

LucidPhilosophy

03-18-2011, 03:47 PM

This whole lack of pros and cons along with neutral guidance on how to make choices is why I find the 101 to be too simplistic. As it stands it might be a passable introduction to a 101 on character stats. But, without dealing with the decision making that goes into custom builds and talking about pros and cons, with relevant and neutral examples, it really isn't going to be useful.

I think the issue here is that you are not thinking about the 101 level. Getting into more advanced topic matter like how to make a strong solo character or a custom build pros and cons discussion is not for the intended audience. This guide is intended for _new players_. Subsequent guides, covering more advanced material, could possibly cover the material you have mentioned but it might be more than a little overwhelming to a brand new player unfamiliar with the game.

Honestly, a better approach might have been to fix the premade paths (including stat selection) to represent the current state of the game. However, this would not have had as much value in terms of visibility.

Thucydides04

03-18-2011, 08:11 PM

comparing a dual box piker toon is not relevant in any way to this thread.

Yes it is, since I made an example of how I went and played the toon and the HPs were not up to snuf, but the rub is that I started with a 14 con. Con was not the issue, instead it was lack of gear.

Thucydides04

03-18-2011, 08:13 PM

I think the issue here is that you are not thinking about the 101 level. Getting into more advanced topic matter like how to make a strong solo character or a custom build pros and cons discussion is not for the intended audience. This guide is intended for _new players_. Subsequent guides, covering more advanced material, could possibly cover the material you have mentioned but it might be more than a little overwhelming to a brand new player unfamiliar with the game.

Honestly, a better approach might have been to fix the premade paths (including stat selection) to represent the current state of the game. However, this would not have had as much value in terms of visibility.

It should be mentioned in the con section that there are other sources of HPs out there. Dumping con is not a wise choice, however neglecting these other sources of HPs is even worse than dumping con.

DustTheWind

11-13-2011, 11:51 PM

In DDO, your Base Attack Bonus (BAB) is a small number with big consequences. BAB determines your ability to hit enemies with both melee and ranged weapons; the higher your BAB, the better your combat accuracy! Additionally, BAB sets the speed (number of attacks) at which a character fights.

I may be wrong but I thought BAB didn't effect ranged attacks per second.

DrawingGuy

11-30-2011, 10:38 AM

Going to break this down into suggestions for each section:

Ways Your DDO Character Grows:
- Mak the diagram have clickable link overlays that jump to the respective sections.

The Relationship (& Difference) between Levels & Ranks:
- This is generally simple, but there is a KEY clarification that needs to be made. "Every rank offers up some Action Points, which are spent on buying enhancements for your character" is NOT true. Every level has 5 ranks, but only the first 4 offer action points. You may want to change this section of the paragraph "To gain a level you first need to earn enough experience to obtain five “ranks.” However, each rank is useful too. Every rank offers up some Action Points, which are spent on buying enhancements for your character." to instead read "To gain a level you first need to earn enough experience to obtain five “ranks.” The first four ranks earn you Action Points while the fifth earns you the level! Action Points are us for buying enhancements for your character."

Base Attack Bonus:
- You may want to include a basic chart that at which points your BAB increases your attack speed/number of attacks. (6, 11, 16) An actual % breakdown of the base would extremely nice.

Skills vs. Feats:
- I would change the title of this to "Skills and Feats". There is compare and contrast in this section, thus making the "vs" confusing and silly.

Ability Scores:
- I think you should add a brief note about ability modifiers. How every 2 points in an ability affects the modifier by 1, and that 10 = 0. So 8 would be -1 and 12 would be +1. (almost) everything is based off the modifier, not the straight stat, so there is no difference between 14 int and 15 int.
- In addition you should note that enhanced abilities (be it through enhancements or items) do not count towards feat requirements or additional skill points.
- Strength: Add a bit about how strength also affects your weight capacity
- Dexterity: I would suggest adding a note that many types of armor can limit your dexterity.
- Constitution: Completely scrap this part: Keeping this Ability Score at 14 is encouraged, even if you're making a character who isn't a melee style. Brave adventurers sometimes use 12. I would instead suggest putting: "Health points are EXTREMELY important in DDO. The world is full of traps and dangerous monsters, and they can be the difference between life and death. It is suggested to not go below 14 Ability Score on this stat"

Rest of the article looks good to me.