Why not EPIC LEVELS on Upcoming Modules???????????????

[marcosoneghett]

Here I am with yet another Epic Levels suggestion.

So, why not implement EPIC levels? (20-25). I mean, we have enough people with 20 level TRs who re-run often the EPICs. Where’s the incentive to re-run EPIC VON for the 50 time when you already have the gear you need?

Why not implement an EPIC Level system right now? If the UPDATES are scaling up on content, why not reach level 25 quests (I mean, REAL level 25 quests and not EPICS).

I mean, we have enough players who have the level and gear, so why not right now, or at least on upcoming modules???

If that is to be, how and where could we put it? Here goes my suggestion:
• Make some EPIC AREAS (only level 20-25 Characters can enter) – Epic areas drop epic content like shards, scrolls and so on. Best places should be at the 12, to the Lamania (EPIC displacer Beasts and Owlbears, anyone?) and Dolurrh (EPIC Inevitables)
• EPIC AREAS could have like 4 quests walkups and 1 raid (Standart DDO module setup);
Wait, but if I can go over level 20, would that prevent me from TR or worse, mess the TR system?
• Here is something that I would like to discuss. If you want to go over 20, you should make a ritual, just like TR (maybe using a different type of Greater Heart) so you could turn on an EPIC Character.
• EPIC Characters should have a different signature aura (not a blue one, another… maybe a Golden Aura) and also a different symbol (than wings) at name.

[Jrstevenson07]

The one thing about your suggestion that sticks out the most for me is a ritual to advance in level. All this 'run to 20 and start over' really could use the option too instead, move forward. especially if they make the xp per each epic level quite high, with maybe the only incentive being extra APs.

And turbine would be thrilled that we would need to buy an epic heart of wood from the store

[Carpone]

Turbine needs to focus on revisiting and adjusting current epic content before even thinking about advancement past level 20.

[bryanmeerkat]

How about instead of adding 5 more levels that will need content adding to make them playable they concentrate on filling the very large content gaps the game has already between levels 15-20 .

People who want 5 more levels annoy me as it seems they dont get that all it will mean is an extra months grinding to reach cap before they are running around going hey lets raise the level to 30 .

[marcosoneghett]

# I agree with revising the EPIC content, even tough i dont think Turbine wont do it when it moves to EPIC levels

# I dont think theres a huge gap at 15-16 level quests, although 17-20 is another matter (think next modules will adress 16-20 as already stated by DEVS, so thats not a issue)

# Raising level cap is an expedient used by MANY if not ALL mmorpgs and it has to be considered seriously. One option for the level 20 lovers its just to stay 20 forever (and rerun the same level friendly content).

[bryanmeerkat]

# I agree with revising the EPIC content, even tough i dont think Turbine wont do it when it moves to EPIC levels

# I dont think theres a huge gap at 15-16 level quests, although 17-20 is another matter (think next modules will adress 16-20 as already stated by DEVS, so thats not a issue)

# Raising level cap is an expedient used by MANY if not ALL mmorpgs and it has to be considered seriously. One option for the level 20 lovers its just to stay 20 forever (and rerun the same level friendly content).



Far better option would be to make level 25 quests that drop level 20 min level items , but dont increase the level cap .

[Talon_Moonshadow]

While I am all for Epic lvls (eventually), there is nothing for them to do right now. :(
End game content for lvl 20s is very little.

We have only two lvl 20 quests in the game right now. One is a raid with a timer.

We do have some challenging lvl 17+ content, that has hard/elite settings that would take them to lvl 20+ quests.

And we do have epics, but they are actually few and not really what most people want for their capped guys to be doing.


Until we have an end game, I am not in support of Epic characters.


I also would like to see some way to keep them out of my Shroud runs....and expecially Reavers... or other low lvl raids. That in theory, an Epic lvl char would have no business being in anyway.

I don't know what the answer is there, but basically Epic guys should be cravng Epic loot.....not the paultry baubles that come from lower lvl quests.

I think lvl 17ish Chars should be allowed to run with lvl 21s......etc. So I don't think just banning lvl 21+ from running with lvl <20s is the answer. But some way to keep people groupig with apporpriate lvls and doing (having) apporpriate lvl quests is badly needed BEFORE they let us lvl up to Epic lvl.





And we need Druids first!
And Gnomes.
Maybe some other core rules D&D stuff we dont have yet. (Cleric domains come to mind)

Before we go on to Epics IMO.




But I do hope they give us them eventually.

[Wrendd]

Turbine needs to focus on revisiting and adjusting current epic content before even thinking about advancement past level 20.

Unless the changes to epic content include additional levels. They are supposed to be working on a "major reworking" of epics, and I suppose it could include advancement beyond lvl 20. I am not sure how it will work out, and in a PnP game I would be highly opposed to epic levels, but this is an MMO. It is possible for them to do something with lvls 21+, but if they do, I hope they do it right.

[knightgf]

The thing with epic is that, while it may be similar to normal levels, at the same time, it is quite different from them. Just by reading the d20srd, you'll realize there's quite a bit of differences with BaB, epic feats, saves, and more! In a way, it's like a different game mode. If turbine were to design epic levels, it would take them a long, long time, possibly longer than creating a class. Could epic levels be what is in store for us in update 9? Well, if it is, capped level 20's such as myself might be jumping for joy, but I know a lot of TR's will be upset over it.

However, it is something I look forward to, because having epic levels is like a whole new ballgame for Turbine; I can't wait to use epic spells, feats and abilities, alongside my own normal abilities. On top of that, it will be more pug-friendly to run endgame raids on elite that exist today such as shroud and ToD. TR'ing might have more rewards if you actually cap at epic levels and the XP penalty might actually be able to come into play by being able to create epic spells and functions that consume epic experience(Not to be confused with normal experience, gained through levels 1-20.)


I am not sure how it will work out, and in a PnP game I would be highly opposed to epic levels, but this is an MMO.

I kinda hate to ask...why oppose the idea of epic levels?

[Quarterling]

I think if they ever decide to make it possible for characters to go above level 20, they should have it cost epic dungeon tokens to level instead of experience points.

For example:

50 tokens = Level 21
60 tokens = Level 22
70 tokens = Level 23

So it would take a total of 180 epic dungeon tokens to get to level 23. This is just speculation though and I have no positive or negative feelings on whether or not this should be done.

[Failedlegend]

Why always "Epic" levels, I know that's how PnP works but why can't we just have a normal cap increase?

[Cyr]

Why always "Epic" levels, I know that's how PnP works but why can't we just have a normal cap increase?

Normal pnp uses epic levels in an attempt to slow down the issues caused by the breakdown of the d20 system. As DDO already is rather far along that path I do not see any strong reason myself why epic levels as opposed to a normal cap increase would be preferable myself.

If they really fix the normal pnp issue of the d20 then there is also no reason why epic levels would be required instead of normal cap increase. Of course this assumes that they actually fix the d20 issue and not just push it out a little bit. Various threads in regards to AC have touched on some feasible methods to accomplish this. Saving throws would probably have to have something similar implemented if we went a ways down the 20+ level path.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

How about instead of adding 5 more levels that will need content adding to make them playable they concentrate on filling the very large content gaps the game has already between levels 15-20 .

People who want 5 more levels annoy me as it seems they dont get that all it will mean is an extra months grinding to reach cap before they are running around going hey lets raise the level to 30 .

Completely /signed. We do not need more levels. We need much, much, much more content than what we have before Turbine even thinks about adding Epic levels.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

[color=#FFA500]
Here I am with yet another Epic Levels suggestion.

So, why not implement EPIC levels? (20-25). I mean, we have enough people with 20 level TRs who re-run often the EPICs. Where’s the incentive to re-run EPIC VON for the 50 time when you already have the gear you need?


Not signed because we lack content right now that a TR2 needs to run certain quests 10-12 times so that they can hit the cap in reasonable time. There's a HUGE chasm of meaningful content between lvls 16-19. Other than Chrono we haven't seen a raid in more than a year. They need to finish the Reaver's Prophecy story arc. They need to finish Amrath, (they need to open up the quests in the "demon side"). Id say after they give us 15-20 quests and close the story arcs, then they can venture to play with the idea of Epic levels (which by the way, is usually avoided at all costs in PnP settings due to impossible to balance powers).

[Failedlegend]

Not signed because we lack content right now that a TR2 needs to run certain quests 10-12 times so that they can hit the cap in reasonable time.

and people wonder why I think the concept of TR is dumb...well that's 1 of the reasons

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

and people wonder why I think the concept of TR is dumb...well that's 1 of the reasons

TRing right now equals grind for extra build points and past life feats. Depending on build, those extra build points and extra past life feats will make your character much more powerful than the original non-TR version. Much more so if the original non-TR version was a 28-pointer. It's not dumb at all. It's masochistic.

[marcosoneghett]

I think if they ever decide to make it possible for characters to go above level 20, they should have it cost epic dungeon tokens to level instead of experience points.

For example:

50 tokens = Level 21
60 tokens = Level 22
70 tokens = Level 23

So it would take a total of 180 epic dungeon tokens to get to level 23. This is just speculation though and I have no positive or negative feelings on whether or not this should be done.

I do think it's an interesting concept, as it would give a different flavor and perspective over the XP, level requirements for EPICS.

[marcosoneghett]

I also would like to see some way to keep them out of my Shroud runs....and expecially Reavers... or other low lvl raids. That in theory, an Epic lvl char would have no business being in anyway.

I don't know what the answer is there, but basically Epic guys should be craving Epic loot.....not the paultry baubles that come from lower lvl quests.


I think the answer here is to make epic characters enter epic only content. By the time epic will be really in discution (which i hope for Update 11) I think there will be enough epic content to run on epic alts.

Epic leveling should be like a choice you make, knowing you wont run on a Reaver elite and Shround elite with normal toons.

[Gnorbert]

My willingness to support a suggestion is inversely proportional to the amount of CAPS and redundant punctuation used in the thread title.

[marcosoneghett]

TRing right now equals grind for extra build points and past life feats. Depending on build, those extra build points and extra past life feats will make your character much more powerful than the original non-TR version. Much more so if the original non-TR version was a 28-pointer. It's not dumb at all. It's masochistic.

While I do agree that TRing gives you more power I'd like to point out that in fact TRing is just another way to make you run the same content faster, so you can achieve some extra feats, and extra points on character creation, which means, its a way to make you run the same content...

[Ungood]

You know.

I was discussing this idea with some of my guild mates about higher level content, and "Epic" areas, like the other planes. In fact, have The Battleground be an introductroty into the higher level content that was covered in "Manual of the Planes" and I think there was an Epic level content, with Demi-god classes and the like for AD&D.

So with that, I think this is a great idea, however, The Epic Level 20 - 25 content should only be open to 36 point builds. That way, everyone knows what they are dealing with, and the builds going into this content, are the highest stat builds they can be.

[Memnir]

So, why not implement EPIC levels? (20-25).My best guess is that they are waiting for somebody with the guts to put 16 or more ?s in their thread title - and not just wuss out at 15. ;)

[Nerveya]

Why go for epic levels when the content doesn't support it? Turbine would have to have a massive outflow of new quest content to support epic leveling. That and, quite frankly, the content (yes, even the epic content) is far too easy to warrant the extra 5 levels.

It would take a massive effort and amount of time, testing, and research to correctly balance the game after level 20. New enhancements, new items, new spells, new feats, and capstone tweaking/enhancements to go along with proper scaling.

To be honest, the level 20 people are the vast minority of DDO. Turbine gives out content to the majority to keep them pleased. People who play to raid and push the limits don't get anything because, well, the person who'd rather have 4 updates worth of level 7-13 packs and a buttload of 'epic items' pay more than you do and there are a lot more of them.

On the other hand, I greatly support new content at the end game that would be a least a -little- challenging. Most of the stuff ('epic' House P, Fens, Chronoscope, DA) are complete jokes and not worth even a bat of one of my eyelashes. Have to remember who pulls the strings though... heh. And with the promise of new PREs, I don't see any new content coming out for the higher ups for a looooong time.

P.S. Whatever happened to epic GH <.< *cough 3 years now cough*

[Failedlegend]

You know.

I was discussing this idea with some of my guild mates about higher level content, and "Epic" areas, like the other planes. In fact, have The Battleground be an introductroty into the higher level content that was covered in "Manual of the Planes" and I think there was an Epic level content, with Demi-god classes and the like for AD&D.

So with that, I think this is a great idea, however, The Epic Level 20 - 25 content should only be open to 36 point builds. That way, everyone knows what they are dealing with, and the builds going into this content, are the highest stat builds they can be.

/not signed NOTHING should ever require you to be TRed

[knightgf]

/not signed NOTHING should ever require you to be TRed

Except being a 34-36 point build and having at least one past-life feat. That's totally fine.

But as for future content, yeah, it wouldn't make sense also, it would be like not qualifying for social security in the United States of America until you have reincarnated at least one time. It just doesn't work.

Heck, to be fair, transitioning into epic should not have any requirements besides the XP for getting there. Remember when leveling sigils were introduced to F2P and P2P? Well, that eventually did not work out, so they had to do away with it. What point would anyone accomplish if they made it so you needed tokens or something else to advance to epic levels? It surely would not eliminate clueless players, and by the time a player gets to level 20, you will definitely be able to tell whether they will manage epic content or not through those subconscious feelings most humans have. If they just rode in someone's backpack the whole way to 20 hoping for epic...well...they're totally missing out and should reincarnate or reroll.

[Cyr]

So with that, I think this is a great idea, however, The Epic Level 20 - 25 content should only be open to 36 point builds. That way, everyone knows what they are dealing with, and the builds going into this content, are the highest stat builds they can be.

lol, 36 point builds do not automatically make someone a competent player or give them a good build. Neither is the inverse true. In fact, a lot less builds benfit in any noticable way from the 32->36 point build then you would think.

I've ran with lots of people over the years with really stellar builds and gear on 32 point builds (and even some with 28 point builds...). I've also ran with a few pretty horrible builds and geared toons that were 36 point builds.

TR count != how good your toon is. It helps, but it can't be taken as a barometer due to the truly large benefits that good gear and a good build grant.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

lol, 36 point builds do not automatically make someone a competent player or give them a good build. Neither is the inverse true. In fact, a lot less builds benfit in any noticable way from the 32->36 point build then you would think.

Well said, Cyr. It's utterly laughable to think that build points or TR status guarantees a good build and player.

[Gnorbert]

Well said, Cyr. It's utterly laughable to think that build points or TR status guarantees a good build and player.

Last night, a twice TRed caster running waterworks asked in party chat if she "should use the shrine before entering part 3 or would her Spell points refill when she ENTERS the quest"


Yup, 36 point builds mean jack with regards to player skill and knowledge.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

You know.

I was discussing this idea with some of my guild mates about higher level content, and "Epic" areas, like the other planes. In fact, have The Battleground be an introductroty into the higher level content that was covered in "Manual of the Planes" and I think there was an Epic level content, with Demi-god classes and the like for AD&D.

So with that, I think this is a great idea, however, The Epic Level 20 - 25 content should only be open to 36 point builds. That way, everyone knows what they are dealing with, and the builds going into this content, are the highest stat builds they can be.

Totally disagree about the TR requirement. You should never be required to TR.

But I do think Epic lvls should require somethig to unlock them.
Although I've seen good arguments that they should not require grinding that hurts casual players.

But it seems like at least good DM flavor to require chars to perfom some token Epic feat to gain Epic powers.


I wanted to comment on your Demi-God idea.

In PnP D&D, I saw no reason why I could not DM for a ful group of Demi-God characters. It just meant giving them appropriate challenges.

I could not however DM for more than a single Lesser Deity, but that was because of the rules they had that gave Lesser and higher Deities a large number of simultaneous actions. (I think a Lesser Deity got 10, and Intermediate got 100)

Anyway, just because an Epic or Demi-God char is very powerful, does not mean you cannot create appropriate challenges for them.

[Carpone]

I think if they ever decide to make it possible for characters to go above level 20, they should have it cost epic dungeon tokens to level instead of experience points.
They tried this already with leveling sigils and determined it was a failure.

Using dungeon tokens as a yardstick is laughable anyway; they are not difficult to get. The completionist in our guild would run epics for 2 days after reaching cap to get 20 tokens for a true heart.

[Ungood]

Totally disagree about the TR requirement. You should never be required to TR.

But I do think Epic lvls should require somethig to unlock them.
Although I've seen good arguments that they should not require grinding that hurts casual players.

Honestly, I would say the entire idea of making a Demi-God arena would be to put a division line to separate the casual from the hard core.

While, I am sure that there are no where near enough truly hard core players support the game in any realistic financial sense, at least not as much as casual to moderate players will. a TR would at least stall the less then determined. And it would open up something to those that had the courage to TR and perseverance to follow it though. In this way, it is designed to stop casuals from entering the domain of Gods.

But, knowing that Hard Core players are still the minority, they still should have their own arena, where they are challenged. A place where a 36 point build, with triple focus TR feats, +6 tomes, and full epic gear, will be beaten like a 3lvl level fresh off krothos newb wandering waterworks for the first time.

I suppose making so that someone who thinks their 28/32 point first timer, is equal in build to a TR, can enter with no fuss might be an option, but, if they did that, they should have to make a choice, either TR at 20th, or Demi-God and need to grind to 25th. If you feel you are up to the challenge go for it, and I am sure their are hard core players will want to prove their mettle, and I am all for them doing that.

* I am aware that +6 tomes do not exist yet, which means that some other means to get a stacks with everything +6 to your stats would need to be found, like, oh, say, a +4 tome and the completionist feat =)