18Fig/12Cler Stalwart Defender, tank build?

[Azelous]

First off let me explain, this is randomly thrown together, it's not lead out as I'll play it ingame, the feats/ENH/levels will be different and attained at different levels. One more add-on I have 4 feats I'm on the fence about:

Power Attack - why would a tank really need it?
Greater Cleave - Is it worth the feat when I have cleave?
2nd Toughness - Is the hp worth the feat?
Stunning Blow - Will it land often enough to be worth a feat?

After all that is said, and I've given you guys plenty of feats to take out and advise better ones, I ask ya this, "Will this wanna-be tank be worth the play through?"

2 Levels of cleric just for the hell of it, could have gone just 1 and maybe 1 of something else for the splash boosts. (cleric splash for UMD negate of smaller healing scrolls) I figure if I'm gonna go meatshield on mobs I may as well be able to save the clerics/healers the SP/Mana between battles by having wands/scrolls.

I'm not all that sure one what GOOD saves are for a tank in late game, or even mid game... so I ask you all to help me out :)



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(18 Fighter \ 2 Cleric)
Hit Points: 330
Spell Points: 155
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 9
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 14 18
Dexterity 14 16
Constitution 14 15
Intelligence 13 13
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 13 13

Starting Ending
Base Skills Base Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 13.5
Bluff 1 1
Concentration 2 2
Diplomacy 1 1
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 1 1
Heal -1 -1
Hide 2 3
Intimidate 5 22
Jump 4 17
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 2 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 1
Search 1 1
Spot 0 0
Swim 2 6
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 3 11.5

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Iron Will
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Bullheaded


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Diehard
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Resilience


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Great Fortitude
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Fighter Armored Agility II
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender II
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender III
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Flanking Mastery I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense II
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate IV
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 19 (Cleric)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense IV
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I

[AylinIsAwesome]

2 Cleric does nothing but gimp your build. If you're going to splash, these are more acceptable:

2 Monk (Evasion + 2 feats, WIS to AC)
2 Rogue (Evasion, UMD)


Maybe more I can't think of. Pure is also good.

[Azelous]

Alright, I understand your position on that, just two questions.

Is the build decent for a "tank" or did you just read the title and reply to my levels?

Would the extra use of healing items, taken from the cleric splash, not be of better use to a "tank"?

(edit: Also Monk is not an option for me at the moment)

[Kaeldur]

Level 30!? Wow!

Ok just kidding...

Power Attack - You want DPS to help hold aggro. If your to-hit sucks and your DPS sucks, you won't want this. But if that's the case, you're just gimping yourself. In DDO "tanks" don't follow the same rules as other MMOs. The case where you need someone to stand around pulling aggro and shield blocking. There are like.... 2 quests where that'll be more useful than DPSing....

Greater Cleave - No. You don't even want Cleave...

2nd Toughness - Yes. Any leftover feat for fighter should be Toughness :)

Stunning Blow - Not with your strength. So no...


Building a tank is very very hard in DDO and I would not recommend it. If you are really inclined on making one, refer to a build that already exists and works - but know that you are still going to have to grind a LOT of gear.

I would strongly advise not to go forth with this build you've presented, for so many reasons... You should not neglect DPS, you need it, even - or especially - as a tank.

Other than that, you're a 28 pt build using no tomes. For Combat Expertise it is common practice to start at 11 Intelligence and use a +2 tome (like I said, lots of grinding for building an effective tank). In my opinion your dexterity is too high, strength is too low, constitution is a bit low...

The 2 levels of Cleric help with nothing. The healing wands/scrolls you are getting from that will be easily usable with your UMD, but will be pretty much useless anyway...

Iron Will isn't a very good use of a Feat either... In my opinion... There's a bunch of things wrong with this build, honestly I would scratch it and move on. I'm all for making your own builds and trying new stuff, but since you asked I must say: this won't work... I'm sorry... I'm not trying to be mean, just being honest...

[AylinIsAwesome]

Drop these feats:

Iron Will
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Shield Bash
Diehard
Resiliance
Great Fortitude
B-Sword prof (get Khopesh instead...more DPS = more threat)

You want Improved Critical: Slashing, the THF Line, Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Specialization: Slashing, Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing, Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing.


Don't take more levels of Item Defense than you need to. You want to get Haste Boost 4.

Tower Shield Mastery 3 is a bit excessive. They start with 2 MDB on them already, and the PrE adds 3. At this point, you're being restricted by your armour, so you get nothing from some of this. It looks like you're going for AC. How far do you want to push in order to get the highest AC possible? That will change your stats somewhat.


Also, Power Attack is used by tanks to add damage to their swings, so that with +threat gear they can hate tank easier.

[Azelous]

haha 30? I wish... just a typo that has been fixed.

In your opinion other than... me not adding in tomes in the build do you see as a downtrodden?

Power Attack I can keep, already in there.
Toughness again, already there.
Great Cleave, why not even cleave? Good to add to DPS if THF?
Stunning Blow, what STR would be good to have this?

Your views on stats, what would be a good basis for these?

Always more helpful to give me a goal than just say, it won't work.

I like to be unique and try new ways to do things, we all have our own mindsets on how we'd want to play a role, mine leads me to this build... That's why I posted it here pre-roll, to make it work... atleast decently, there's always a good Cleric Hire XD

[AylinIsAwesome]

Great Cleave, why not even cleave? Good to add to DPS if THF?

They do less damage than just normally attacking because of the long animation. They're pretty much worthless (except to barbarians, but only to pick up their PrE).

[Azelous]

Aylin, I'll take all of that into mind, all sounds pretty solid, but just one concern... wouldn't resilience be a huge + when dealing with multiple spell casters?

I was thinking about taking the slashing feats, but I wasn't really sure it would give me much of a bonus to being a tank, I guess it will haha.

Also, Tower Shield 2 would be sufficient enough then? or 1?

[AylinIsAwesome]

Aylin, I'll take all of that into mind, all sounds pretty solid, but just one concern... wouldn't resilience be a huge + when dealing with multiple spell casters?

Not really.

Many buffs that you can get make a lot of spells pretty meaningless to player characters. And bosses usually just melee you instead.


I was thinking about taking the slashing feats, but I wasn't really sure it would give me much of a bonus to being a tank, I guess it will haha.

More DPS is always better than less DPS. ;)


Also, Tower Shield 2 would be sufficient enough then? or 1?

This depends on your max DEX bonus from armour.

For example, if you're in DT Armour, that's a MDB of 1 normally, and then raised by 2 by your PrE (16 DEX). So even with Tower Shield 1 (2 base + 3 PrE + 1 enhancement = 22 DEX) you're still capped out by your armour. Focus on armour enhancements first. Getting the first two would give you an equal MDB cap with Tower Shields and with Heavy Armour.

For the time that you're using Tower Shields (ie, before Epics), those enhancements are probably useful, though eventually you're probably going to drop down to 0 and just use an Epic Large shield or something, since those don't have MDB.

[Azelous]

Very good to know, you're helping me and this build GREATLY. Thanks for all the advice, I'm using it to revise the builds as I get replies haha.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Very good to know, you're helping me and this build GREATLY. Thanks for all the advice, I'm using it to revise the builds as I get replies haha.

:)

Good luck. I'll be back tomorrow, though someone else'll probably answer the rest of your questions by then. :p

[theboatman]

Here is a basic frame for a 28 point build:

Strength 16
Dexterity 12
Constitution 16
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 8
Charisma 8

Every ability increase goes into strength.

Yes this will require +1 tomes in order to get dodge/combat expertise, but you can delay them until the higher levels; I actually encourage this as well in order to get more dps feats earlier. If you want to change the spread a little, you could start with a con of 15 and bump dex/int by one. 32 point builds will add a little to wisdom as well, as will saves are important at the end of the road.

The feats I have on my human AC/Intimitank are:

Hp enhancers: Toughness, Toughness, Toughness. Yes, three times.

Save enhancers: Luck of Heroes, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes. Fortitude is your strongest save, no need to buff it.

Intimidate Skill enhancers: Least Sentinal Dragonmark [+2 intimidate with +1 more available from enhancements, and the shield of faith is nice as well,] Skill Focus: Intim /or/ Bullheaded. I have bullheaded, for one less point, but I have more stat points as well in my current build.

AC enhancers: Dodge, Combat Expertise

DR enhancers: Shield Block, Improved Shield Block. For when you need to turtle up.

Dps/Threat enhancers: Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Improved Crit: Slash, Power Attack.
Sometimes you don't need the AC and can turn power attack on for more damage. Counter to the post earlier to take Khopesh, Bastard Swords do more damage with a shield, especially if you take the whole THF chain. Glancing Blows. This also lets you do /adequate/ damage with a two hander and power attack, when you dont need to tank.


The last feat I took was stunning blow. It's a nice feat for leveling, as you will get use from it. Endgame you may have lesser results with lower strength/enhancements without prime gear. The main draw is it removes a threat from the equation, with the bonus of autocrits. Improved Trip would be an alternative I could condone, since you have the prerequisite already.

[theboatman]

So I saw a couple responses made while I was typing up my essay and just want to add: I didn't put any enhancements in my last post.

Enhancements are the most fluid thing of your build. You can reset them every three days, and probably will do so as your playstyle changes and your gear accumulates. Being able to tweak your build to even out stats, maximize your dex bonus, get extra DC on your stunning blow, etc, makes the enhancements very forgiving. So don't put too much thought into it and neglect the more important matters, like leveling!

[Azelous]

Good deal BUT I just have one question... how would THF help a Bastard sword? I'm unaware of all the technicalities of this game.

[theboatman]

Two handed weapons get glancing blows, which are a percentage of the main attacks damage. There is also a very small chance of weapon effects, like flaming, being applied to the glancing hit. The more feats in the two handed fighting chain, the higher the damage from glancing blows. Certain races also have enhancements to benefit, but we are talking human, so thats for another time.

The reason this matters for tanks, is that not long ago bastard swords and dwarven axes got an upgrade; when used with either an empty hand or shield in the offhand, they apply glancing blows and benefit from feats just like their bigger two handed cousins.

[Azelous]

Right, I understand that much of it, but isn't the bastard sword a One-Handed weapon? How would that affect it?

[DrNuegebauer]

Right, I understand that much of it, but isn't the bastard sword a One-Handed weapon? How would that affect it?

Bastard swords get granted glancing blows when used with a shield.

But don't spend a feat picking up bastard swords - they're a terrible weapon. You'd be better off spending the feat on khopesh and using it with a shield - you'd do more damage.

I think you should opt against a 28 point tank build - play something else until you clock up the favour required to unlock 32 point builds, and then you'll be able to make something that's not only viable, but quite useful! (and you'll learn more about the game in the meantime!)

[Quikster]

Right, I understand that much of it, but isn't the bastard sword a One-Handed weapon? How would that affect it?

Daxe and bsword get glancing blows when wielded with a shield (or otherwise just not twf).

[theboatman]

Yes, its a one handed weapon.

I'll do a comparison.

Two weapon fighting, one in each hand. Two Khopeshes beat out two Bastard Swords. Neither weapon gets glancing blows. The math is complicated, but trust me.

One weapon, one shield. Sword and board, if you will. One Khopesh will still beat one Bastard Sword, until you factor in glancing blows; the bastard sword gets them, while the khopesh does not.

Bastard swords and Dwarven Axes are the only two weapons that get glancing blows in this manner; it lets you get more damage while using either with a shield.

[theboatman]

But don't spend a feat picking up bastard swords - they're a terrible weapon. You'd be better off spending the feat on khopesh and using it with a shield - you'd do more damage.

Its blanket statements like this that make me sad. They are not a terrible weapon. They have a larger critical threat range than Khopeshes, with a smaller multiplier. For a pure damage fighter, ie Kensai build, Khopeshes come out ahead. Kensai builds will also get the entire weapon focus/specialization chain, five feats worth. It is required for that prestige enhancement line.

But Kensai is a different monster than Stalwart Defender. Glancing blows combined with the THF chain do respectable damage, but more importantly do more threat, especially with the stance multiplier, and threat gear. Defenders also want a healthy pool of hp's, and decent saves. You can do one and do it well, or try to do both and do neither very well.

I love my Stalwart Defender. Its rewarding to me when people comment on how smooth runs are having an AC/Intim tank in places like VOD [human mind you] and TOD [hate tanking horoth.]

-But- and this is the part that I think several of the posters tried to warn you away from you idea about...
Defender characters are very hard to gear, very dependant on multiple ability scores, and face a very large stigma from members of the community as not being optimized characters at best, to a wasted slot at worst.

I don't want to jump on the bandwagon and say dont make a tank, as my very first character to 20 was a tank. But it seems you are still learning the game, and learning the game on a character that will often not be welcomed by groups with open arms, you may want to consider alternatives. I will agree that having a 32 point build makes the defender easier to accomplish, but whether you want to grind the favor to unlock it is up to you.

The defender isnt winning any damage dealing contests. Even when given the opportunity to put the shield away and pull out the two handed greatweapon and turn power attack on, it's middle of the road. But what the defender brings is a lot of what I like to call preservation of resources. Run's go smoother, Less consumables are used, Less pots are drunk. But it's an uphill climb you will face every day, and I would hate to have you turned off the game by the responses you recieve.

Just so you know what you are getting into.

[Azelous]

I do appreciate the warning, and I will heed it. I'm a tactical minded person, and I take that with me to every MMO I play. I've never seen a game where a slacked build makes it impossible to play the role it's there for, yea it will make you have to pay closer attention, but null it? I doubt that. I'm sure there will be hard times and I'm sure I'll hear this and that from others, but that stuff just goes in one ear and out the other, with me.

I have taken all the advice here and planned out a really decent build I believe. One that will for sure be plausible at the least. Besides, from what I hear, if you're not a VIP you better have some decent gear haha. I doubt there is any class in this game that is the "best" so i'll take this one and work on it.

Like ya said Boat, I'm learning and from what this thread has showed me, I think I'm off to a great start. Hell, if it turns out to be a failed attempt, I can always reroll and use my knowledge. No biggie.

Thanks for all the advice people, I will see you in-game XD

[AylinIsAwesome]

Its blanket statements like this that make me sad. They are not a terrible weapon. They have a larger critical threat range than Khopeshes, with a smaller multiplier.

Wrong.

Both weapons critical on a 17-20 with Improved Critical: Slashing.


For a pure damage fighter, ie Kensai build, Khopeshes come out ahead. Kensai builds will also get the entire weapon focus/specialization chain, five feats worth. It is required for that prestige enhancement line.

A SD will want that chain too, because it will equal more DPS, which equals more threat.


But Kensai is a different monster than Stalwart Defender. Glancing blows combined with the THF chain do respectable damage, but more importantly do more threat, especially with the stance multiplier, and threat gear.

A Greensteel Khopesh will have this: 1d10 17-20 3x
A Greensteel B-Sword will have this: 2d8 17-20 2x

Against Bosses, both will also deal holy damage.

Assuming a Pure Fighter:

Khopesh: 1.1 * (.75 * (5.5 + x) + .2 * 3 * (5.5 + x + y)) + 1.1 * 3.5 * 2

B-Sword: 1.1 * (.75 * (4.5 * 2 + x) + .2 * 2 (4.5 * 2 + x + y)) + (1.1 + .03 * 3) * 3.5 * 2 + .6 * .2 * (.95 * (4.5 * 2 + x))

Since the armour cannot be used to wear Marilith Chain (not a high enough AC), Bloodstone is the only currently available source for Seeker, so y=6.

From that, we can simplify the above equations to:

K: 1.485 * x + 19.8275
B: 1.379 * x + 23.381

Where x is the damage bonus from all sources (STR, PA, Weapon Quality, Buffs, feats, ect.)

Setting them equal yields this for the value of x: 33.5236 (we'll use 34). The derivative of the K line is also greater than the derivative of the B line, so above this damage bonus Khopesh will be superior, and below it B-sword will be better.

Damage bonus to get to 50: *This will be raid buffed, because the main time it matters is in holding a raid boss's aggro*
4 Weapon Specialization feats
2 Guild buff
5 Weapon Quality
2 Weapon Specialization
13 STR Bonus (16 Base + 5 Levels + 6 Item + 1 Exceptional + 2 Guild + 2 Tome + 4 Stance)
4 Epic Claw Set <-- Included since it's the BEST set for Threat tanking in all of DDO
1 Prayer
7 Splashed Warchanter
=38
+5 PA
=43

(Also not that with neither Prayer nor Bardsong, but with PA, the damage bonus is still 35).

So while B-Sword might be slightly better before gear is acquired, Khopesh will eventually surpass it completely. Because of this, I see no reason to focus on Bastard Sword when eventually all it'll mean is that you wasted large ingredients making the weapons.

[krud]

(get Khopesh instead...more DPS = more threat)

You want Improved Critical: Slashing, the THF Line,.....

shouldn't that be twf? either twf or drop the khopesh altogether.

[bryanmeerkat]

I do appreciate the warning, and I will heed it. I'm a tactical minded person, and I take that with me to every MMO I play. I've never seen a game where a slacked build makes it impossible to play the role it's there for, yea it will make you have to pay closer attention, but null it? I doubt that. I'm sure there will be hard times and I'm sure I'll hear this and that from others, but that stuff just goes in one ear and out the other, with me.


So you have posted this build on the forum for what purpose . You dont want advice on how to improve it and its a rubbish build .

Sure you can gimp your build and then if you play really well you will be as good as someone who plays half arsed while watching tele , eating nachos and half watching the screen .

[AylinIsAwesome]

shouldn't that be twf? either twf or drop the khopesh altogether.

Not so.

It is now possible for players to threat tank with a sword and shield. The THF is for improving DPS when using a two-handed weapon when AC is not as needed.

Here is the most notable example: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175058


EDIT: The OP will probably need a head start in order to maintain aggro, but that's a much better alternative than intimi-blocking.

[sephiroth1084]

First major note:
Even tanks need DPS. There are going to be many situations where holding a shield will be pointless or even detrimental to the success of a quest or encounter, whether because you don't have enough AC to matter, someone else is tanking, DPS is simply of greater necessity or the monsters don't care about your AC.

For those situations you want DPS. I mean, real DPS. That means taking Power Attack, the Weapon Specialization line of feats (on a fighter) and picking up either the TWF feat chain or the THF feat chain (you can kind of get by without these, particularly if you learn to twitch well, but that's a different story, and I'd recommend picking them up if you have the feats to do so, which you do). I really cannot stress this enough. Tanks who can do nothing but tank are often a waste of a party slot, and standing around intimidating and blocking all the time gets boring.

Some examples of times when you don't want to be doing this:
-Your AC is X and the monsters have an attack bonus of X+18 or so.
-Your AC without the shield and Combat Expertise is X and the monsters have an attack bonus of X-18 or so. If they also don't hit very hard, that number can be smaller (ie. the difference between their to-hit and your AC can grow smaller).
-Someone else is tanking because: they have better AC/gear/HP, can hold aggro better due to better DPS/hate/intimidate, or because the group is just using a high-HP, high-DPS character, as many groups will.
-The monsters heal themselves and the DPS of the rest of your group is struggling to overcome the self-healing, and therefore need more DPS, from you.
-The primary threat a monster, or monsters, pose is spell-based, and therefore completely ignores your AC and shield. There are many such encounters in the game.
-Monsters have a lot of HP while posing little or no threat, such as by either having very weak attacks, or by not attacking at all (sometimes you are tasked with destroying inanimate objects with tons of HP).
-Situations that combine one or more of the above typically put even more emphasis on your DPS.
[EDIT] -Situations in which you are benefiting from mass healing that doesn't take into account your own personal stats. That is, if a group of melees is being healed and receiving that healing based either on the character with the lowest relevant stats (lowest HP usually, but could also be the one taking the most damage), or on some set schedule (either simply being spammed as fast as possible, as in DQ2 oftentimes, or simply whenever a timer is up, such as with Mass Heal in Vault of Night).
-Situations in which aggro is necessarily random. If you can't control where the aggro is going, what does it matter if you are set-up to assume you'll have it?


That said, now I'll address some specific concerns with your tank. You'd be better off with either a pure fighter build or a 2-paladin splash. 2-Rogue would be good, but is pulling you in other directions, and 2-monk is putting a greater burden on your stats. The paladin splash gives you basically the same access to curative wands as the cleric splash does, while also giving you your Cha bonus to your saves, which ends up being much better than all of the feats you've taken to that effect combined. It also gives you +1 Cha via enhancements if you find yourself with an odd Cha.

Shield Bashing is, for the time being, junk. A dev has hinted that it may become worthwhile in the next update, but only time will tell. For now, though, it is junk. It's slow and weak.

Ditto for Cleave and Great Cleave, minus the hopeful dev hints.

Scrap all of the save enhancing feats. If you are desperate about your Will saves, take Force of Personality to use your Cha bonus in place of your Wis bonus for that save. This may actually be worthwhile given how many feats a fighter has, even if you end up taking a paladin splash.

If you can stand to spend the necessary gold or TP to acquire a +1 Int tome, I'd drop starting Int to 12 and put the extra point into Cha, or even drop both Int and Cha to 12 and increase Str to 15. Not a very big deal. Put all of your level-up points into Str.

You won't have a big enough bonus to Stunning Blow for it to land much, but may be worthwhile for part of the game. I'd definitely take it earlier, like in the level 10-14 range) and consider swapping it out later on unless you find it to still be working a lot (a DC 36 is kind of the low end for a lot of endgame content and you look to be coming in at around a 34 after figuring in basically all gear available, which you won't have for a long time). Your mileage may vary, though, and it won't kill you to have this around.

Take DPS enhancements. After you take the Weapon Specialization feats you'll gain access to enhancements that also improve your damage with certain weapons. Take those. Also take Haste Boost all the way.

Compare your max Dex bonus in armor to what your Dex will actually be before spending points on Armor and Shield Mastery. Stalwart Defender will end up giving you 3 more Dex with Tower Shields, 2 more with heavy armor and 1 more with medium. Adjust these enhancements so that you aren't ending up with more Max Dex than you actually have Dex. Also, given the choice between one or two DPS enhancements and one point of AC, take the DPS most of the time, particularly if you're looking at Armor/Shield Mastery II or III as these are very expensive for very little return.

[Edit] Forgot that the skill enhancements are 1 point per tier now. Intim III and IV are much more affordable than I was thinking, but still in a swing state where you should drop them if there is a 1 or 2 point enhancement that would be very beneficial otherwise.

Much of the time, though, and especially as you acquire better gear, tanking via DPS, or DPS + threat (a multiplier added to your DPS just to determine how you compare to other players' DPS for obtaining and holding aggro) will be a better strategy in many cases than intimitanking. Sometimes intimidating and blocking will be the way to go. Especially if the situation is going very poorly, as this will often help a group stabilize and recover from a bad situation. Sometimes, you can mix DPS with intimidate: hit intimidate, then attack until intim is off cooldown and hit it again. You lose some DPS doing this, but gain a lot more than you'd have simply blocking.

[theboatman]

-you are correct, same threat range; bastard sword has higher base damage. Not enough coffee last night.


Damage bonus to get to 50: *This will be raid buffed, because the main time it matters is in holding a raid boss's aggro*
4 Weapon Specialization feats
2 Guild buff
5 Weapon Quality
2 Weapon Specialization
13 STR Bonus (16 Base + 5 Levels + 6 Item + 1 Exceptional + 2 Guild + 2 Tome + 4 Stance)
4 Epic Claw Set <-- Included since it's the BEST set for Threat tanking in all of DDO
1 Prayer
7 Splashed Warchanter
=38
+5 PA
=43


Why not make the bloodstone epic? I mean everyone in the game has access to it, and it's just as easy to get for new players as the epic claw set...

/rant off

Giving a new player information like the above is misleading. Sure epic claw set is nice, but most new players will get Levik's set first. It has the same 20% incite, while having 20% healing amp, slightly less than claw. If a tank is building their character towards max AC, it's not often that they will be able to use power attack over combat expertise. You are giving advice for someone that only has 28 point builds available, cater to your target audience please. I'm not trying to argue with you about which is better in the absolute min/max game. I'm trying to give advice to a newer player about a build that works. It's adequate. I never claimed it to be optimized. But again it works. Many of the comments about how unoptimized it is only reinforce my earlier comment. Yes it will run into problems against very highly geared toons, that probably have incite gear on themself. If they are really team players, they will remove it to benefit the tank. That or they should probably be running on a difficulty more suited to them, that the tank knows to be cautious about until they have adequate gear.

Back to the op: this thread has turned into a discussion of other than your original intent, so my suggestion might be to repost a current build you are planning, for specific critique vs the theoretical debate that is going on now.

[sephiroth1084]

Giving a new player information like the above is misleading. .
While I agree with the sentiment, to a point, there is still the power of information to be considered. The OP can make a more informed decision. Knowing that a bastard sword will be worse than khopesh as he/she progresses in the game, and only slightly ahead even in its most favorable conditions, they can decide whether they would prefer the earlier gratification and the cheaper, easier to acquire weapon to pure optimization.

And I think much of what is being discussed in the thread is still germane to the OP's questions.

[unbongwah]

OP: if you really want to splash something to improve the self-sufficiency of this build, go with paladin 2 instead; that gets you Divine Grace (CHA bonus to saves) and lets you use paladin wands (cure, energy resist, etc.). Since as an Intimitank you want good CHA anyway and paladins have access to most of the same wands as clerics, you get more out of a pally splash, IMHO. But bear in mind you're sacrificing DPS at lvl 20 to get it.

[jwdaniels]

If you are going to use a bastard sword S&B to get glancing blows, taking the two-handed fighting line and using a two handed weapon in DPS mode when you don't need the shield is a very viable option.

The glancing blows with the bastard sword will help to negate the better crit profile of the khopesh, especially with THF proccing damaging effects on those glancing blows. Just know that you will not need to use your shield for most of the game, so don't hesitate to put it down and pick up a great exe, great sword or falchion to swing with.

Also, he's clearly new (given the 28-point build) and probably not plat-capped, so bastard sword is a great option over khopesh because it's a lot cheaper to get good effects, at least until green steel.

[sephiroth1084]

If you are going to use a bastard sword S&B to get glancing blows, taking the two-handed fighting line and using a two handed weapon in DPS mode when you don't need the shield is a very viable option. Agreed.



The glancing blows with the bastard sword will help to negate the better crit profile of the khopesh, especially with THF proccing damaging effects on those glancing blows. I don't know about that, but this:


Also, he's clearly new (given the 28-point build) and probably not plat-capped, so bastard sword is a great option over khopesh because it's a lot cheaper to get good effects, at least until green steel.
Is why I didn't comment at all on that choice when I made my initial, very large, post. In this situation the actual stat benefits the khopesh has over the bastard sword end up getting balanced against other factors, like availability. Personally, I'd go the other way, and try to pick up decent scimitars or longswords instead of the exotic proficiency.

[theboatman]

Khopesh: 1.1 * (.75 * (5.5 + x) + .2 * 3 * (5.5 + x + y)) + 1.1 * 3.5 * 2

B-Sword: 1.1 * (.75 * (4.5 * 2 + x) + .2 * 2 (4.5 * 2 + x + y)) + (1.1 + .03 * 3) * 3.5 * 2 + .6 * .2 * (.95 * (4.5 * 2 + x))

The math is a little more complicated than that.
Bastard Swords (and Dwarven Axes if you are so inclined) get glancing blows on the first, third, and fourth attack of the chain for an automatic bonus of 50% of the main strike. Glancing blows are also applied to doublestrike hits. The special weapon effect has a 9% chance to be applied per glance. Seeker 6 can be obtained on the new pirate hats, along with 15 intimidate for those so inclined; this allows the upgraded bold trinket to be used for seeker 8, although some might want the upgraded stalwart trinket to make up for: bard song of recklessness, which is a 5% morale bonus to doublestrike, so the coeficient very easily could be 1.15. The math gets much more complicated when you factor in glancing blows and doublestrikes, especially when there is no possible way to get glancing damage on the second attack in the chain, and that may be where a double strike occurs.

I'm not trying to say your math is wrong; I personally was interested in the numbers since I have a bastard sword thf'ing fighter that tanks. But there are too many variables to include to make the equation as simple as you have put it. Using seeker 8 will actually help Khopeshes out more in the long run. But doublestrike is the wild card here, particularly how it plays with itself. The new epic shield makes a nice replacement for about any there are currently, providing the same if not more AC, without a max dex bonus, and without the attack penalty for using a tower. It only loses out on some blocking DR, which isn't it's niche anyway; but the question stands how it's doublestrike stacks with others. Best case, we would get a 1.21 coeficient for 10% capstone + 5% warchanter +6% shield. That really helps out bastard swords over the long haul because of the 50% additional glancing blow damage. It's also very hard to factor in the holy damage on glancing blows, because we are moving off the middle of the bell curve to the deep end.

Math was posted with a breakpoint for strength between Khopesh and Bastard Swords. The thing to take from it is that at low gear(strength) levels, Bastard Sword comes out ahead. At higher levels the math gets fuzzy. I disagree with the sentiment that it is not worth it to make a weapon that will eventually be obsolete. It may be obsolete(I'm working on a math post of the comparison between the two for sword and boarding, but really need more data on the doublestrike) but I consider it an investment in obtaining that later result. Take the pirate hats from the birthday event for example: Im sure some people never did an upgrade to the kobold effect on the hat, considering it a waste of materials that would otherwise go towards items/dowsing rods. I did upgrade my hat, to haste 4, and it made all the runs after much more pleasureable for me.

The part that strikes me as odd is that so many people keep recommending Khopesh for Sword and Boarding. If you are a hybrid dps build, you are probably taking the TWF chain, where Khopesh is a no brainer. But if you are going full blown niche tanking, Bastard Sword (or Dwarven Axe) has really really nice synergy with THF. So to Azelous, how attached to a human are you? If you are really trying to do this with a 28 point build, I would really recommend you consider a dwarf.

[theboatman]

If you are going to use a bastard sword S&B to get glancing blows, taking the two-handed fighting line and using a two handed weapon in DPS mode when you don't need the shield is a very viable option.

I also want to reiterate that this is the perfect answer to your original question of "why power attack?"

One last question for you: what server are you on? I have a metal/pg bastard sword sitting in my bank that I dont have use for any longer, so if you end up going that route I may be able to help out a bit.

[sephiroth1084]

Theboatman, I'm not convinced, though numbers may end up swaying me otherwise, that the glancing blows make up for the greater crit power on the khopesh. For one, as you get more doublestrikes chances, you get more crits, which puts the khopesh in the same place it was--the glancing blows aren't advancing faster than the crits are, necessarily.

As for the synergy, it's kind of a weak argument. The bastard sword necessarily requires the THF chain in order to even be in competition, whereas the khopesh works just as well with or without the feats. In either case, you're spending one feat to make your S&B DPS better. Most believe that khopesh is better, even with the bastard sword getting glancing blows. I suppose you may reveal whether this is the case or not, in time.

Keep in mind, though, that at some point he's going to be hitting auto-crit monsters. As a fighter, he will necessarily be better at that with his preferred weapon, though swapping to picks will yield better DPS (I'm not speaking of epics necessarily). In those situations, being able to continue using your preferred weapon yields much better results if you took khopesh.

Lots of things to consider.

[sweez]

Similarly, you can probably skip Intimidate IV and maybe III, just because they are very expensive.

Don't intimidation enhancements cost 1 point per any tier?

[theboatman]

Don't intimidation enhancements cost 1 point per any tier?

Yes, four points for all four tiers. It is also noteworth that if you delve into the Sentinel Dragonmark chain the enhancements there are also one per tier. This is from a reworking of enhancements where all skill based enhancements cost one per tier, all the way up to tier 4.

[sephiroth1084]

Don't intimidation enhancements cost 1 point per any tier?
Yup. My bad. I'd forgotten about the change.

That makes ranks III and IV basically swing-AP. Do you have something else you want/need for 1 or 2 AP? No? Take them. Yes? Drop them.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Why not make the bloodstone epic? I mean everyone in the game has access to it, and it's just as easy to get for new players as the epic claw set...

I didn't include it because I've never seen the shard, nor the scroll for it. The Epic Claw set is a bit easier to get once you start running Epics since there aren't quite so many in the Fens as there are in the Sands.


Agreed.

I don't know about that, but this:

Is why I didn't comment at all on that choice when I made my initial, very large, post. In this situation the actual stat benefits the khopesh has over the bastard sword end up getting balanced against other factors, like availability. Personally, I'd go the other way, and try to pick up decent scimitars or longswords instead of the exotic proficiency.

Scimitars is what I would do, but longswords? o_O


The math is a little more complicated than that.
Bastard Swords (and Dwarven Axes if you are so inclined) get glancing blows on the first, third, and fourth attack of the chain for an automatic bonus of 50% of the main strike.

I thought it was a proc chance, similar to doublestrike. I know it's that for THF, is it different for one-handed weapons?


Glancing blows are also applied to doublestrike hits.

Yep.


The special weapon effect has a 9% chance to be applied per glance.

That's in there.


Seeker 6 can be obtained on the new pirate hats, along with 15 intimidate for those so inclined; this allows the upgraded bold trinket to be used for seeker 8, although some might want the upgraded stalwart trinket to make up for: bard song of recklessness, which is a 5% morale bonus to doublestrike, so the coeficient very easily could be 1.15.

Unless they've already fixed the Bold Trinket, right now it doesn't stack with normal Seeker.

As long as both are getting the same doublestrike I can just divine both functions by that amount, and it'll be the same.


The math gets much more complicated when you factor in glancing blows and doublestrikes, especially when there is no possible way to get glancing damage on the second attack in the chain, and that may be where a double strike occurs.

Can you show me some some proof that's how it works? If you can I can try to set up something for that.


I'm not trying to say your math is wrong; I personally was interested in the numbers since I have a bastard sword thf'ing fighter that tanks.

Well if you do notice something wrong I can always fix it, and see what the new number is.


The new epic shield makes a nice replacement for about any there are currently, providing the same if not more AC, without a max dex bonus, and without the attack penalty for using a tower. It only loses out on some blocking DR, which isn't it's niche anyway; but the question stands how it's doublestrike stacks with others. I left out this shield since I didn't know if the OP would have access to it, since the event's over and I'm unsure if s/he had time to make one before it was up. It shouldn't matter in the long run though, since I compared the difference in damage, and wasn't plotting overall DPS.


The part that strikes me as odd is that so many people keep recommending Khopesh for Sword and Boarding. If you are a hybrid dps build, you are probably taking the TWF chain, where Khopesh is a no brainer. But if you are going full blown niche tanking, Bastard Sword (or Dwarven Axe) has really really nice synergy with THF. So to Azelous, how attached to a human are you? If you are really trying to do this with a 28 point build, I would really recommend you consider a dwarf.

I'm not sure how D-axes stack up to Khopeshes with glancing blows considered, but I do know that when comparing them to scimitars (such as with dual-wielding), the scimitars come out ahead due the extra crit range (scimitars are crit power 6 and D-axes are crit power 4).

[theboatman]

Look at it this way:

Every attack that hits does base weapon damage, plus bonus damage (strength modifier, weapon plus, additional damage), plus weapon effects. The first, third(with GTHF), and fourth swing of the attack sequence gain a glancing blow, for 50% of the damage of the main strike (the same damage that can be modified on a critical hit.) In addition, every glancing blow has a chance (0.09 with GTHF) of adding weapon effects. Now in the case of the green steel I hope we are all assuming the creature we are attacking is immmune to acid, at least I was; but both the holy 2d6 and slicing 1d4 will be added if the weapon effects apply. Force damage from the alchemical ritual is also applied (to the effect glance, not the main one.)

In addition to the base damage every swing that connects does, every attack has a chance of being a critical hit.
If we assume that every critical hit confirms, every attack with do extra damage equal to the multiplier -1 times the base and bonus damage, plus any seeker multiplier times the weapon crit mult. Bastard swords get their damage again, Khopeshes get theirs twice over. Glancing blows apply also the the critical damage.

However some bosses have fortification. I'll use horoth for example: on normal 45% of your crits will not happen, you dont get the extra damage; fully half of your crits will not happen on Elite.

I agree that Khopeshes are superior dps weapons, and that many people build dps monsters with TWF and Khops, that have the AC to tank while dual wielding. My position is that THF tanks are better served with a Bastard Sword (or Dwarven Axe,) because of the reliable damage increase that glancing blows are.

[theboatman]

Taking this equation to it's most extreme, I present to you:

Assumpions - Elite Horoth vs 20 Fighter, Human, Capstone. Khopesh will be presented with a Kensai III build in mind; entire Weapon Focus/Specialization chain, and Enhancements. Khopesh also has TwF chain for times when a shield is not needed. Bastard Sword will be presented with Stalwart Defender III; ThF chain, and Weapon Focus/Spec, but not superior. Assumption is made that neither AC nor threat are an issue; both are unhittable and will not lose aggro for purposes here. (yes I realize that a Kensai may have issues holding aggro without the 50% from stalwart, particularly against dps geared to do elite, but humor me.) Neither will roll a one vs Disintigrate :).

Strength breakdown:
18 base
5 level
4 enhancements
7 item
1 exceptional
2 exceptional
2 completionist
2 airship shrine
4 tome
2 yugo pot
3 house D pot
6 psionic
___________
56 for a modifier of +23 (BS also gets 4 more from stance, K 8 more from boost; 25/27 )

Damage Modifiers:
2 weapon specialization feat
1 weapon specialization enhancement
4 epic claw set
2 frenzied bezerker set
3 monk past lifes
9 warchanter 20 song
2 good hope
1 prayer
___________
24 for the BS, K gets 5 more from Superior Spec and Kensai Enhancements.

So for standard damage, BS is sitting at 49, K at 56

Seeker is 8 for BS (Epic Bloodstone), K gets 4 more.

And on to the fun!

Epic Chimera's Fang:
2d10+6, +1d6 lit, +1 force, +1d10 lit +1d6 untyped on crit; 17-20 x2, devils ruin in slot

vs.

Epic Chaosblade:
2d8+6, +2d6 anarchic, +1d6 truechaos, +1 force, +4d6 anarchic on crit; 15-20 x3, devils ruin in slot

Both are using Epic Swashbuckler, so Doublestrike will be calculated at 16%.

BS - 1.16*(1.375*(.95*(11+55)+.2*.5*(1*(11+55)+2*8))+1. 09*(.95*(3.5+1)+.2*.5*(5.5+3.5)) = 119.629...

K - 1.16*(1*(.95*(7+62)+.3*.5*(2*(7+62)+3*12))+1*(.95* (7+3.5+1)+.3*.5*(14)) = 121.423



Thats a lot closer than people think.
And in a real life situation, most hate tanks will need more incite than the 20% on epic claw set and 15% on the stalwart tod set. But I wanted to give closer to a real life situation, since there probably are TWF Kensai with Chaosblades and Shields.

Glancing blows do a whole lot to even the gap for bastard swords, with their higher base damage. It gives them a unique niche, just like defender characters have.

[sephiroth1084]

Aylin, early in the game especially, the difference in damage between a scimitar and a longsword is pretty slight, whereas the cost difference tends to be pretty significant. Plus, the longsword has a higher base damage for enemies that you aren't critting on. That said, what's the profile for a battleaxe? I can never remember, but that might be the logical jump for such situations.

I like the way longswords look, too. :)

[Chai]

Because everyone should be the same 5 or 6 accepted templates at level 20, or youre gimp.

If I really believed this, Id play a cookie cutter game, and not one that offers all the options DDO does.

[sephiroth1084]

Because everyone should be the same 5 or 6 accepted templates at level 20, or youre gimp.

If I really believed this, Id play a cookie cutter game, and not one that offers all the options DDO does.
You can do something weird and still be useful, or you can do something that is itself something of a cookie cutter and be useless.

[tango44]

make him 1/2 elf, take the cleric deletant (sp?). :D tada self healing.;)

[AylinIsAwesome]

Aylin, early in the game especially, the difference in damage between a scimitar and a longsword is pretty slight, whereas the cost difference tends to be pretty significant. Plus, the longsword has a higher base damage for enemies that you aren't critting on. That said, what's the profile for a battleaxe? I can never remember, but that might be the logical jump for such situations.

Ahh, I see. I misunderstood then. :)

Battleaxe is 1d8, crits on a 20 for 3x.


I like the way longswords look, too. :)

Me too!

[sephiroth1084]

make him 1/2 elf, take the cleric deletant (sp?). :D tada self healing.;)
That works, too, and gives you a second Intimidate ability that can be used if your normal one fails or bugs.

[sephiroth1084]

Ahh, I see. I misunderstood then. :)[/quote[ Nah, I just wasn't very specific. :p

[quote]



Me too!:)

[Azelous]

WOW holy mess man, you guys have gone crazy on this :O I love all the info though! Helping me in strides...

Status Update, I absolutely LOVE what I have made so far, I'm not very far at all, but MAN do I love it!
Level 2, pushing 3 currently and I have soloed every Korthos quest, inside and out, on elite... Well I did have a lvl 1 cleric hireling but still haha With just my personal buffs and gear I can reach an AC of 35, not too shabby considering I'm just level 2!

EDIT: also I just read some valuable info, and I will hereby go 2 PALADIN vs the original 2 Cler... +CHA and same splash bonus for wands? Again guys, GREAT advice, great advice, thanks so much.

I broke down and said to hell with it, I got some +2 plate, a +2 B-sword, and a +2 wood tower from the DDOS, yea I know a waste, but just a small one haha

But to this guy:

So you have posted this build on the forum for what purpose . You dont want advice on how to improve it and its a rubbish build .

Sure you can gimp your build and then if you play really well you will be as good as someone who plays half arsed while watching tele , eating nachos and half watching the screen .

Let me ask that you read ALL posts before replying to one in mid-thread... as in a few of my previous posts before my statement, which lead to yours, I said I was revising this build as I got new information. And I just would never ever even want to play a game, I could do all that extra mess with... where would be the enjoyment in the game, I ask. As of now, with all this info I've taken and revised to my build, I would say other than 32 point builds, I am doing far greater than most the people I see as a fighter/barb/monk/any type of tank. I find it hard to believe a level 2 anything working with a 28 point build could solo misery peak so easily... I have been in full groups that did not do as well as me and a cleric hire.

[Azelous]

Because everyone should be the same 5 or 6 accepted templates at level 20, or youre gimp.

If I really believed this, Id play a cookie cutter game, and not one that offers all the options DDO does.

haha this is the kind of thinking that gets us places!

[unbongwah]

make him 1/2 elf, take the cleric deletant (sp?). :D tada self healing.;)
Better idea: start base CHA 13 or 14 (need decent CHA for Intimitanking anyway), take FvS or pally dilettante, squeeze in FoP (use CHA instead of WIS for Will saves), and waste no build pts on WIS. TADA! :)

But since OP is making a 28-pt human, I presume they don't have stuff like HEs yet. So a somewhat moot point.

[unbongwah]

Azelous: here's a 28-pt human version of the ftr 18 / pal 2 combo I mentioned. I'm currently leveling a 32-pt dwarf version (extra pts went into DEX & CHA) and having fun with it. As I said, endgame DPS suffers compared to a pure ftr, but I like the extra survivability the paladin splash provides. Only two tomes are required: +1 CHA for Force of Personality and +1 INT for Combat Expertise. The +2s at lvl cap are of the "nice to have" persuasion.

One advantage of this build is it can switch between Kensai & Stalwart Defender at any time, so you can focus on offense or defense as you see fit. Also the Sentinel DMs have a few things going for them: they meet the SD pre-reqs without having to worry about when (or even if) you take Combat Expertise; they let you add +6 to Intim (I took Bullheaded & SF Intim for another +5); they provide some helpful self-buffs at low lvls (Shield of Faith & Prot. from Energy; not sure if Globe of Invulnerability is ever useful, though); and they let you use the Epic Chimera's Fang (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Chimera%27s_Fang) at endgame as your S&B tanking weapon w/out taking BSword prof. [I would probably just use scimitars the rest of the time, though you can try squeezing in khopesh if you want a better boss beater.]

Downsides to this build apart from losing capstone: the Sentinel DMs crowd out other feats I would like to squeeze in (namely Stunning Blow & Dodge); base HPs are a bit lower than I would like (I prefer to hit at least 400 HPs unbuffed on tanking builds if I can). Still, I think it's a solid build for a "poor man's" 28-pt Intimitank. Now let's see how people tear it apart! :p


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.0
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(18 Fighter \ 2 Paladin)
Hit Points: 352
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 11
Will: 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 26
Dexterity 12 14
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 12 13
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 12 14

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 19
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Sentinel
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Sentinel
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Dragonmark of Sentinel


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Bullheaded


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Intimidate
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender II
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender III
Enhancement: Fighter Greatsword Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Greatsword Specialization II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation I
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation II
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation III
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation IV
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate IV
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III




EDIT: enhs may need to be tweaked to up your MDB depending on what armor you use and how high you get your DEX.

[Dragavon]

2 Cleric does nothing but gimp your build. If you're going to splash, these are more acceptable:

2 Monk (Evasion + 2 feats, WIS to AC)
2 Rogue (Evasion, UMD)


Maybe more I can't think of. Pure is also good.

This.

Boosting CHA and taking 2 levels pally for silly good saves is also a good idea.

[theboatman]

One advantage of this build is it can switch between Kensai & Stalwart Defender at any time, so you can focus on offense or defense as you see fit.
Well, every three days at least, but yes, easier to switch back and forth between the two. Feats like Stunning Blow/etc will have to come from this pool if you want to change.


Also the Sentinel DMs have a few things going for them: they meet the SD pre-reqs without having to worry about when (or even if) you take Combat Expertise; they let you add +6 to Intim (I took Bullheaded & SF Intim for another +5); they provide some helpful self-buffs at low lvls (Shield of Faith & Prot. from Energy; not sure if Globe of Invulnerability is ever useful, though); and they let you use the Epic Chimera's Fang (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Chimera%27s_Fang) at endgame as your S&B tanking weapon w/out taking BSword prof. A few comments: Least Sentinal is really the only one required for Stalwart Defender PrE, Fighter Toughness II and III let you qualify for the second and third tier respectively. Lesser comes with two points of intimidate on the feat, and lets you buy one more with a point in your enhancements. Least lets you buy the second tier, for a total of four, while Greater unlocks the last two points. So you get quite a bit from just the first feat, freeing the other two slots for toughness; three of them in a tanky build is quite sufficient. Using the epic Fang as an endgame weapon will be quite difficult, as it will not break DR without a 100 hour token from Devil Assault.


[I would probably just use scimitars the rest of the time, though you can try squeezing in khopesh if you want a better boss beater.]
/No comment


Downsides to this build apart from losing capstone: the Sentinel DMs crowd out other feats I would like to squeeze in (namely Stunning Blow & Dodge); base HPs are a bit lower than I would like (I prefer to hit at least 400 HPs unbuffed on tanking builds if I can). Still, I think it's a solid build for a "poor man's" 28-pt Intimitank. Now let's see how people tear it apart! :p
As per my earlier comment, the Least and Greater Sentinel dragonmarks can be swapped out with little loss.

Stunning Blow can be nice, but it requires some investment to get a decent DC end game.

I like the force of personality, especially if you use skill points on UMD. But do note it requires a 13 to get, just like Dodge and Combat Expertise.

And speaking of UMD, you get 16 base and 4 per level with a starting Int of 12. I like Intim/Balance/Tumble/UMD. Yes I realize the last three are crossclass, but really the only one you would be interested that is not is jump, so you can pull a few points from tumble along the way to put a couple in jump. Tumble is a lot more useful to Defenders than just one point for proficiency: when turtled up tumbling negates that nasty 50% move penalty. The first two are pretty mandatory, UMD is really nice to have. You won't be no fail heal scrolling, but at capped level you can no fail some powerful wands (synergy with the cha for will save is nice too) and even toss a res scroll or two, 50/50 chance.

I understand why people recommend taking all 5 weapon feats, the +3 attack and +4 damage is nice, but if you stop at regular weapon focus/specialization, you still get +1 attack and +2 damage. This still lets you get Kensai I, for leveling purposes, and nets you three feats. So I understand it, I just dont agree with it.

Assuming one is willing to concede the feat swaps, that's two more toughness, dodge and stunning blow. The tradeoff is some damage, access to kensai II and III; but you get a little more control/utility, and a lot more tankyness and meat. The last fighter feat lets you get an appropriate exotic weapon for tanking, such as Great Crossbow or Shuriken :P

[yawumpus]

Because everyone should be the same 5 or 6 accepted templates at level 20, or youre gimp.

If I really believed this, Id play a cookie cutter game, and not one that offers all the options DDO does.

The problem isn't that he has to take an accepted template to level 20. The problem is that he has requested a build that is extremely difficult to create a non-gimped character. The correct answer is:

1. Don't make a tank as your first character.
2. Don't make a 28 point build tank.

Also, you haven't mentioned a dedicated group that wants a tank for quests that don't necessarily require a tank. These aren't terribly common, and the first step is to make sure you can find people to run with an unequipped tank.

The other thing that isn't mentioned in all this bit about using epic shields and the drop rate of shards of epic bloodstones is just how long it will take to make a useful tank. Consider how much was written comparing khopeshes to bastard swords. All of that was written to avoid bastard swords because when you eventually gear up your tank, you will want a khopesh (although a bastard sword will likely work better before that).

Oddly enough, the point isn't that you can't change from one to another. It isn't all that cheap (in game money), but you take the appropriate shard and plat to Fred and he swaps the feat out for you. Obviously, this isn't why you plod through the game equipping your character while wielding a khopesh and doing less damage. While there are plenty of weapons available, you won't function as a tank without a +4 insight bonus on your weapon. This only comes on stage III greensteel items, which take running one raid (the shroud) over and over for at least 40 hours. You might not want to go back and build another one (unless you need to dual wield them). Note, this is only one of the special items that makes a tank so difficult to build, the other ones mentioned aren't any easier to get.

Seriously, in DDO "tank" usually means a barbarian who does more damage than anyone else (or more likely wears some hate generation gear to make up the [small] balance) and is expected to take all the hits (and will be hit on every swing, no way around that). As long as he can survive between heals, the party will win.

There are other tactical ways to play DDO. May I suggest a rogue? While these are also hard to make with 28 point builds (you typically want a strength-rogue), the point is the reverse of a tank. You attack mobs that aren't agroing on you. Tactical play is still a must, as you are quite squishy, and have to avoid dealing out enough damage to get agro (which is far more dangerous for you than most other builds). In return, you will do more damage than any other player to almost all mobs (unfortunately most of the exceptions are considered "the important" enemies). Also you will be able to find/remove traps, which will get you into plenty of parties, especially those wanting to enter at the all important "elite" level [some beginners think that this is the point of a rogue. It is an easy falacy to fall into, but rogues should be built to provide huge attacks while being good enough to handle traps on the side].

Other tactical builds include a CC wizard .These are largely builds that emphasize intelligence and higher DC/spell penetration feats. Basically you do much the same as a tank, only instead of convincing them to beat you up, you simply hold them in place with magic. It is easier on the armor repair bills. While warforged are the obvious best choice for a wizard, a 28 point human works well.

Much of this is an exaggeration, as I think Chai has posted [elsewhere] how to make a workable tank under perma-death rules (which essentially puts *all* the gear mentioned in this thread out of reach). Getting Chai's gear should be within reach of a first (non-PD) character [whether you would be shunned in a non-PD pug is another story]. Still, I keep thinking the OP is trying to play WoW in DDO. Start with a DDO build (any here will do (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=232660)) , then once you understand the game make your own non-cookie-cutter build.

[unbongwah]

A few comments: Least Sentinal is really the only one required for Stalwart Defender PrE, Fighter Toughness II and III let you qualify for the second and third tier respectively.
That's true. I was trying to max out the Intim value on this build, which IMHO is one of the advantages of a human tank; since obviously there are other races which are tougher, higher DPS, and/or better at hate-tanking. But Lesser & Greater DMs can be dropped for other feats.

I like the force of personality, especially if you use skill points on UMD. But do note it requires a 13 to get, just like Dodge and Combat Expertise.Which is why I started CHA 12, took a +1 tome, and popped in +1 pally CHA enh to even it out. Between that and Divine Grace, this build should have respectable saves, which helps make up for not being WF. ;)

The build is aimed at newcomers who presumably have little if anything in the way of twink gear; since +1 tomes start dropping in lvl 10 quests IIRC, I figure that's a good time to tell someone to start trying to acquire one.

I understand why people recommend taking all 5 weapon feats, the +3 attack and +4 damage is nice, but if you stop at regular weapon focus/specialization, you still get +1 attack and +2 damage. This still lets you get Kensai I, for leveling purposes, and nets you three feats. Technically you don't need any Focus or Spec feats to be a SD. So it's a question of how much DPS are you willing to sacrifice and what are you gaining in return. For this build, I focused on DPS, Intim, HPs, and AC, roughly in that order. While it may seem counter-intuitive to put AC last, my feeling is it's the element which requires the most grinding to achieve, so it should be the last thing you really worry about as a newcomer. I admit I'm weird and may be completely wrong about that, though. :)

1. Don't make a tank as your first character.
2. Don't make a 28 point build tank.
While I agree that making an endgame-viable tank on a 28-pt build is difficult if not impossible, I disagree that there's no value in new players making 28-pt tanks like mine. For one thing, properly built they sacrifice very little DPS (relative to their build options) - a pure ftr version of my build is only 2 STR from max and has all Weap Focus & Spec feats - so they can play as straight DPS until they start getting the hang of tanking. For another, I think they learn valuable lessons in gameplay from it: when to Intim & when to attack; when to go for DPS and when to switch to S&B; etc. Tanking may not be necessary at lower levels, but it's still good practice; and something like Chronosphere is a lot easier to run at level if you've got a good tank who knows how to hold (and survive) boss aggro.

Naturally, tanking is not as easy as playing pure DPS, but just because someone's a newbie doesn't mean they can't be taught.

[sephiroth1084]

1. Don't make a tank as your first character.
2. Don't make a 28 point build tank.

While I mostly agree, I couldn't do so too strongly, as my first character was in fact a 28 point tank. In my case, I got him to level 15 (cap was 16), and 1750 favor, then rerolled to a 32 pt. version with changes based on much of what I had learned during those first 15 levels (like a starting 8 Con was a bad idea).

In DDO, now, that sort of plan is even easier due to the availability of Greater Reincarnation allowing one to quasi-reroll into a 32 pt. character when it becomes available without losing their progress and gear.

I still think it is a pretty terrible first choice for a character, more so because of the incredible gear requirements for AC and the grind to achieve that gear, but it can be a fun character...if you aren't gimping yourself from the get go.

[Azelous]

Alright guys, a new update to the build...

I decided (totally regretting it now though) to shoot up to lvl 6 fighter before I took the paladin levels (yea decided to go pal instead of cler, if you missed it) but dear god am I having some Will save issues.

So, I've decided to reroll a lvl 2 Pal, from the get go. Now, I do have the character planner, via my OP. Looking through the enh of the paladin, I'm curious if I shouldn't go 14 fig/6 Pal. I know, that most people cringe at the thought of a deep multiclass... regardless. It seems viable to me at the moment. I would have way better will saves and even enh to boost it up there even better. At least far along enough to get through the simple stuff, before mid level things where you almost need a party, and I won't have to fret so much due to higher ranked paladins or other save buffers. As well as some the already said CHA bonus for UMD, wand/scroll capabilities and such, and the option of 3 new bonus paths from being a paladin lvl 6, could come in handy as well.

I know you guys will lead me straight haha, you have all done such a great job so far!

[sephiroth1084]

Alright guys, a new update to the build...

I decided (totally regretting it now though) to shoot up to lvl 6 fighter before I took the paladin levels (yea decided to go pal instead of cler, if you missed it) but dear god am I having some Will save issues.

So, I've decided to reroll a lvl 2 Pal, from the get go. Now, I do have the character planner, via my OP. Looking through the enh of the paladin, I'm curious if I shouldn't go 14 fig/6 Pal. I know, that most people cringe at the thought of a deep multiclass... regardless. It seems viable to me at the moment. I would have way better will saves and even enh to boost it up there even better. At least far along enough to get through the simple stuff, before mid level things where you almost need a party, and I won't have to fret so much due to higher ranked paladins or other save buffers. As well as some the already said CHA bonus for UMD, wand/scroll capabilities and such, and the option of 3 new bonus paths from being a paladin lvl 6, could come in handy as well.

I know you guys will lead me straight haha, you have all done such a great job so far!
I'd say that it isn't really worth it here. What you could do, though, is go paladin 2, and then start in on your fighter levels and see how you feel about your saves for several levels. Honestly, though, if you're going to take more than 2 levels of paladin, I'd start thinking about simply going with a paladin build. Maybe pure paladin, or 18/2 fighter, or even 14/6 fighter.

My opinion is that paladin works a lot better as either a small splash or as the primary class than it does as a deep multiclass. When you pick up 6 levels of paladin, it can be tempting to start in on your smites and lay on hands and such, but they're going to be pretty weak.

Also, most of the stuff from Stalwart Defender doesn't stack with most of the stuff from Defender of Siberys.

[AylinIsAwesome]

If you splash more than 2 levels on a SD build, then you lose 4 AC that you can't get back.

1 from the PrE, 1 from stance (in addition to -1 STR/CON), and then -2 from the set. I wouldn't really recommend that.

[sephiroth1084]

If you splash more than 2 levels on a SD build, then you lose 4 AC that you can't get back.

1 from the PrE, 1 from stance (in addition to -1 STR/CON), and then -2 from the set. I wouldn't really recommend that.
There's that, too.

[Feithlin]

If you splash more than 2 levels on a SD build, then you lose 4 AC that you can't get back.

1 from the PrE, 1 from stance (in addition to -1 STR/CON), and then -2 from the set. I wouldn't really recommend that.

I wouldn't recommend that either, at least not without thinking a lot about it.
However, I was thinking about a SD 12/HotD 6/Ro 2 either as a TR option for my tank or as another character if I get a new character slot. Paladin aura (with enhancement) would give back +2 AC, DM I would give +2 more damage, and you gain some emergency self heal via LoH and unyielding sov. But the main benefits would be much stronger saves (hence the 2 rogue levels), +2 Cha (from enh.) and Divine righteousness.
What makes me wait to create one is:
* I'm not 100% sure about the mechanics of Divine righteousness: does the additionnal hate only apply to sacred damage (which is quite limited with only 6 pal levels) or also to standard damage?
* It requires some modifications to the equipment, as you won't get +4 dodge from stance and will have +3 instead (not cumulative with chaterring ring or DT rune).

*Edit: if going with outfits only, monk would actually be better than rogue, even if you loose full UMD.

[Quikster]

I wouldn't recommend that either, at least not without thinking a lot about it.
However, I was thinking about a SD 12/HotD 6/Ro 2 either as a TR option for my tank or as another character if I get a new character slot. Paladin aura (with enhancement) would give back +2 AC, DM I would give +2 more damage, and you gain some emergency self heal via LoH and unyielding sov. But the main benefits would be much stronger saves (hence the 2 rogue levels), +2 Cha (from enh.) and Divine righteousness.
What makes me wait to create one is:
* I'm not 100% sure about the mechanics of Divine righteousness: does the additionnal hate only apply to sacred damage (which is quite limited with only 6 pal levels) or also to standard damage?
* It requires some modifications to the equipment, as you won't get +4 dodge from stance and will have +3 instead (not cumulative with chaterring ring or DT rune).

*Edit: if going with outfits only, monk would actually be better than rogue, even if you loose full UMD.

Dodge from chat ring and dodge from stance have nothing to do with each other.

[sephiroth1084]

I wouldn't recommend that either, at least not without thinking a lot about it.
However, I was thinking about a SD 12/HotD 6/Ro 2 either as a TR option for my tank or as another character if I get a new character slot. Paladin aura (with enhancement) would give back +2 AC, DM I would give +2 more damage, and you gain some emergency self heal via LoH and unyielding sov. But the main benefits would be much stronger saves (hence the 2 rogue levels), +2 Cha (from enh.) and Divine righteousness. If you're concerned with AC, I'd really go to at least 18 fighter (or paladin). As an above poster said, you lose 4 AC by missing Stalwart III. That's kind of a big deal. Also, the movement speed penalty in the first two tiers of defensive stance are a real pain to have to live at twenty.

You aren't really gaining any AC back with the paladin aura, since you're just losing that AC when you group with a paladin.


What makes me wait to create one is:
* I'm not 100% sure about the mechanics of Divine righteousness: does the additionnal hate only apply to sacred damage (which is quite limited with only 6 pal levels) or also to standard damage? It simply applies a multiplier to the effect your damage has. All of your damage.


* It requires some modifications to the equipment, as you won't get +4 dodge from stance and will have +3 instead (not cumulative with chaterring ring or DT rune).[quote] The devs have muddied the waters a bit with the way they have done things, but basically, all Dodge bonuses stack with all other Dodge bonuses except that item-based bonuses do not stack with other item-based bonuses of the same value (even this isn't entirely concrete, since the alchemical bonuses from eldritch rituals are typed as dodge bonuses in some places yet stack). Point being, you would get both the +3 from your stance and the +3 from the Chattering Ring (or dragontocuhed armor).
[quote]
*Edit: if going with outfits only, monk would actually be better than rogue, even if you loose full UMD.
That's a different bag, and requires a very different allocation of your stats if you still want to have AC. If not, then I'd say it's a toss up, but would still lean rogue.

[Feithlin]

Dodge from chat ring and dodge from stance have nothing to do with each other.

Ok, good to know.

[unbongwah]

Just to double-check something: Dodge AC bonuses from items only stack if they're different (e.g., +3 from Chattering Ring and +4 from Icy Raiments stack for +7, but a +3 and a +3 would still be only +3); but Dodge bonuses from feats or class abilities like Defensive Stance always stack, regardless of their value, correct?

[Quikster]

Just to double-check something: Dodge AC bonuses from items only stack if they're different (e.g., +3 from Chattering Ring and +4 from Icy Raiments stack for +7, but a +3 and a +3 would still be only +3); but Dodge bonuses from feats or class abilities like Defensive Stance always stack, regardless of their value, correct?


Off the top of my head yes. For example haste and haste guard are both +1 and stack for +2.

[sephiroth1084]

Off the top of my head yes. For example haste and haste guard are both +1 and stack for +2.
And they stack with the Dodge feat (+1), and the Dodge bonus from the lower level Mabar cloak (+1), for a total of +4 Dodge.

Another example: +4 Dodge from Icy Raiments stacks with the +4 Dodge from the bard's song, Inspire Heroics for +8.

[notforyou]

Drop these feats:

Iron Will
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Shield Bash
Diehard
Resiliance
Great Fortitude
B-Sword prof (get Khopesh instead...more DPS = more threat)


while some of these i agree with, B sword is better for aggro management over khopesh for 1 reason: glancing blows.
with the THF feats and with imp shield bash giving 20% proc chance (in next update) for shield offhand attack SnB will be a viable choice. also when u dont need to turtle u can always switch to a falchion/greatsword/great axe for extra dps
also u should consider pure 20 ftr for that nice capstone and xtra feat, but if u rly wanna multiclass as it was said b4 then go 2 monk or rogue