Epic Chronoscope Exploit [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

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Normalcy

02-22-2011, 10:48 PM

Apparently it's against forum rules to call out exploits...

But I got confirmation from plenty of people that have informed me that what I was told to do is indeed an exploit. So to any new people, If one of these wonderful veteran players on your server tells you a way to get a completion on Epic Chronoscope everyday, DON'T DO IT!

Hobgoblin

02-22-2011, 10:51 PM

first rule of fight club: dont talk about fight club

it is a forum rule not to talk about exploits in detail like that fyi

hob

Normalcy

02-22-2011, 10:54 PM

first rule of fight club: dont talk about fight club

it is a forum rule not to talk about exploits in detail like that fyi

hob

It's a forum rule to not report potential exploits?

It's very unsettling to be new to a game and to be told by veteran players to use an exploit and then be told that I can't talk about it. :/

Hecore

02-22-2011, 10:56 PM

You can bug report exploits -- it is against the forum rules to discuss them.

And yes, assuming that works (haven't tried it myself) it definitely is an exploit.

Normalcy

02-22-2011, 10:58 PM

You can bug report exploits -- it is against the forum rules to discuss them.

And yes, assuming that works (haven't tried it myself) it definitely is an exploit.

It works, a lot of people do it. However, as far as I know, no one has gotten banned for it.

I don't see anything in the forum rules about discussing it, but thank you for warning me.

Senshock

02-23-2011, 01:05 AM

first rule of fight club: dont talk about fight club

it is a forum rule not to talk about exploits in detail like that fyi

hob

/IbtL

Dartwick

02-23-2011, 01:25 AM

Irinis

02-23-2011, 01:29 AM

Essentially everyone gets the end chest everyday if that what you mean(and thats not an exploit its normal game mechanics).

I dont think there is an exploit that gives you a completion everyday.

EDIT: There is a way where people get end chests on multiple toons that is an exploit.

No because when you're not in the instance when the chest is opened you don't get loot. That includes the epic chest and token. (Don't know why the token still looks like it's there.)

So, finish the quest on one character, decide to bring another for a little farming after the completion, and you can get the chests that WEREN'T OPENED before. You can't get the ones that were, to my knowledge.

Quikster

02-23-2011, 01:44 AM

Essentially everyone gets the end chest everyday if that what you mean(and thats not an exploit its normal game mechanics).

I dont think there is an exploit that gives you a completion everyday.

EDIT: There is a way where people get end chests on multiple toons that is an exploit.

Getting the end chest everyday in a raid should be an exploit, considering there is a 3 day (more or less) timer on the raid and end chests dont appear until after completion. That would fall under the whole "Bypass a raid timer" clause of exploiting.

sirgog

02-23-2011, 01:57 AM

Only way that I'm aware of to loot the Epic Chest every day is to have three characters.

Other chests can, of course, be looted more often, subject to the limits of standard ransack mechanics.

Unreliable

02-23-2011, 03:25 AM

I would edit out your post that is explaining the details of the supposed exploit, and ask in the description for a moderator to delete this post.

If not your looking at an infraction point and possible ban for talking about exploits in a public forum.

Good luck.

Palantyr

02-23-2011, 06:37 AM

lulz, you don't have switch characters to get the end chest everyday. Haven't done it myself, I stay true to the 3 day timer, but I know those who do. This is the reason the last post calling for +4 tomes to drop in the raid gave me a good laugh.

Normalcy

02-23-2011, 06:56 AM

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=185617

phalaeo

02-23-2011, 06:58 AM

^^^
No, it really is against the rules to talk about exploits in the forums.

Normalcy

02-23-2011, 07:00 AM

^^^
No, it really is against the rules to talk about exploits in the forums.

Where is this rule written?

phalaeo

02-23-2011, 07:02 AM

Normalcy

02-23-2011, 07:10 AM

Schmoe

02-23-2011, 07:49 AM

You can bug report exploits -- it is against the forum rules to discuss them.

And yes, assuming that works (haven't tried it myself) it definitely is an exploit.

I, for one, appreciate the public service announcement and sharing of information. I would prefer to receive any information available that helps me avoid a ban, rather than have that information shrouded in secrecy.

Ebuddy

02-23-2011, 07:50 AM

ibtl

I NEVER get to hear about exploits. I'm always left trying to infer what it really is/was.

Lorz

02-23-2011, 08:02 AM

18. You will not exploit, distribute or publicly communicate any Game error, miscue or bug which gives an unintended advantage within the Game world. You may report bugs at http://forums.ddo.com/new_bug.php (http://forums.ddo.com/new_bug.php).

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=185617

Link him to the code of conduct or ToS....what you two are linking too only applies to the Preview program....see the title of what you link too....this is not for regular play. Not saying the line is not in the regular CoC or ToS....saying.....he is not in the preview program so that set of rules you link too does not apply.....link tothe right one....which im too lazy to find on my mobile phone.....

phalaeo

02-23-2011, 08:05 AM

Link him to the code of conduct or ToS....what you two are linking too only applies to the Preview program....see the title of what you link too....this is not for regular play. Not saying the line is not in the regular CoC or ToS....saying.....he is not in the preview program so that set of rules you link too does not apply.....link tothe right one....which im too lazy to find on my mobile phone.....

Aw ****... I Googled "DDO Forum Discuss Exploit".

I'll look again, but I know it's there....
*grumble*

PopeJual

02-23-2011, 08:07 AM

I have a new Shroud exploit to share with the group. It lets you run the Shroud EVERY SINGLE DAY, WITH COMPLETIONS!!!1!

Ready? I'm going to share it now...

Hit the back button on your browser if you don't want to see it.

I'll change the text type to black in case you don't want to know the exploit that will let you get a Shroud completion every single day.

Get three different characters flagged for the Shroud and then run each character on a different day.

phalaeo

02-23-2011, 08:11 AM

Ho-kay....

Let's start this over. Forum ToS and CoC, as posted by Cube.

http://forums.ddo.com/announcement.php?f=154&a=4

IronClan

02-23-2011, 08:12 AM

I have a new Shroud exploit to share with the group. It lets you run the Shroud EVERY SINGLE DAY, WITH COMPLETIONS!!!1!
Get three different characters flagged for the Shroud and then run each character on a different day.

/scribbles notes furiously

Zaal

02-23-2011, 08:12 AM

Heck if we're all compelled to honesty about hacks, suppose I'll share one that oldtime VIP's have know about since GO LIVE.

You can get better loot from a chest if you use diplomacy on it 1st.
(Tests show that you are more likely to pull raid loot too.)

It's important however for the toon in party with the highest diplo to open the chest or it doesn't work so make sure you do a roll-call on your party members for skill check BEFORE anyone opens it.

PopeJual

02-23-2011, 08:16 AM

Palantyr

02-23-2011, 08:23 AM

You are all right, it's not an exploit. I remember when we could do epic von6 every day too, we can still do that right?

PopeJual

02-23-2011, 08:28 AM

Sorry, but I couldn't stop reading this post thinking..."so after he got all the loot he needed from chrono, he decided to no longer exploit it"

If it takes you more than 2 runs to get all of the loot you want from the Colonscope, then you have WAY too many level 5-12 alts.

k1ngp1n

02-23-2011, 08:31 AM

If it takes you more than 2 runs to get all of the loot you want from the Colonscope, then you have WAY too many level 5-12 alts.

You do know this is referencing Epic farming, right?

Carpone

02-23-2011, 08:36 AM

And since I've actually heard of your guild, it seems as though veteran players from other servers are also condoning these actions. Now I wonder how legit their guild level is if they condone exploits like this.

So pardon me for asking but does this have anything to do with how Over Raided manages to be 10 guild levels higher than any other guild in the game?
You'll have to troll harder than that. Over Raided only has 20 active accounts (with 3 soon to be inactive thanks to Rift), and each account has 3+ epic raid capable toons. We run multiple epic VON/DQ/Chrono raids every 3-day cycle. You can go look up any of Vanshilar's renown analysis threads about guild size and decay to see why we have more renown than anyone. It's all about math.

None of us tolerate cheating, and Vanshilar is the first one to report unintended game mechanics effects. He's responsible for the barb capstone alacrity nerf, the ranger tempest nerf, and other notable adjustments. DDO is already easy mode, and we're constantly looking for ways to challenge ourselves (speed raids, shortman elite/epic raids, solo elite SoS as a melee w/o hireling, etc). There's absolutely nothing challenging about Chronoscope, other than getting scrolls.

The fact is Chronoscope has been out for 5 months and there are multiple 'unintended mechanic' problems with Chronoscope that we've reported and Turbine has yet to fix. So point your guns at Turbine devs to fix the problems, not at the players who are just as upset with this as you are.

PopeJual

02-23-2011, 08:39 AM

You do know this is referencing Epic farming, right?

If it's for Epic farming, then only the Shards are limited by the completion timer and Shards seem to drop pretty steadily in eChrono.

I just think that if Turbine wanted to keep people from farming Chronoscope, then they would have put a lockout feature on the entrance like every other raid (aside from TS) has. I really don't see that the one way of avoiding the timer is an exploit. The other way of avoiding the timer does seem a bit shady to me, but if you are good enough (and have enough friends who are good enough) to knock out an Epic Chronoscope every couple of hours, then I'm more impressed by your ability than ashamed by your avoidance of raid timers.

Wrendd

02-23-2011, 08:41 AM

Sorry, but I couldn't stop reading this post thinking..."so after he got all the loot he needed from chrono, he decided to no longer exploit it"

Actually, I did it about 3 or 4 times before I stopped. I was really excited about it first, but once I thought about it I decided that it was not worth the risk.

MattiG

02-23-2011, 08:46 AM

So pardon me for asking but does this have anything to do with how Over Raided manages to be 10 guild levels higher than any other guild in the game?

Could it have something to do with the fact that they're a small group of exceptional players? Add to that the fact that Van started dissecting the ins and outs of the renown system early on and in great detail.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3175327&postcount=3

simply put, they run hard and fast. with a 42 enchant DC on a first life wf, and 550hp, they're the only group on the server with which I still get "nervous about performing."

IronClan

02-23-2011, 09:10 AM

Could it have something to do with the fact that they're a small group of exceptional players? Add to that the fact that Van started dissecting the ins and outs of the renown system early on and in great detail.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3175327&postcount=3

simply put, they run hard and fast. with a 42 enchant DC on a first life wf, and 550hp, they're the only group on the server with which I still get "nervous about performing."

Not to derail, but when there's 20 top guilds that can't manage to separate themselves from each other by more than a level or two, and ONE in the entire game, is 9 or 10 levels from #2 and then a member of that wildly unlikely statistical outlier seemingly defends a questionable tactic... well... seems like a reasonable question.

stainer

02-23-2011, 09:14 AM

I predict a script being run shortly.

Normalcy

02-23-2011, 09:15 AM

Your obsession in this matter is entertaining. Please continue.

What can I say? He went from defending the exploit to saying that his guild doesn't condone cheating. So, I simply would like to know if his guild considers it cheating.

As someone who has only played this game for 5 months, I just wonder how many new people get banned from the game because they take the advice of veteran players who steer them the wrong way.

Ethiel

02-23-2011, 09:21 AM

OR happens to just be a very elite, very small raiding guild.

That is why they got higher than the other "elite" guilds, 20 accounts still nets a small/med guild bonus. No matter how many accounts running content all over the spectrum of levels, can keep up with that bonus when it is being gained by a hard core guild.

If it was someone and their family and friends the bonus doesn't equate to as much as fast, but in the case of OR 20 accounts equates to near a hundred raid level toons and that doesn't count TR's, if all of them gather the exact same amount of renown as the same amount of members of CC, their bonus will push them well beyond what CC gathered, and CC will still have another 80+ accounts attributing to our decay.

it simple to realize the math involved. 20 active accounts with small/med bonus, greater than 100+ active account with no small/med bonus.

the decay rates just cripple the larger guilds.

PopeJual

02-23-2011, 09:23 AM

Not to derail, but when there's 20 top guilds that can't manage to separate themselves from each other by more than a level or two, and ONE in the entire game, is 9 or 10 levels from #2 and then a member of that wildly unlikely statistical outlier seemingly defends a questionable tactic... well... seems like a reasonable question.

I really don't know Orien as a server, but the impression that I get is that most servers have 6-10 very good guilds and 3 or 4 really outstanding guilds. Orien has 6-10 decent guilds and 1 really outstanding guild.

That means all of the hardcore players on the server kind of end up there. When most all of the best players on a server are in once place, stuff gets done faster and harder.

psymun

02-23-2011, 09:32 AM

I really don't know Orien as a server, but the impression that I get is that most servers have 6-10 very good guilds and 3 or 4 really outstanding guilds. Orien has 6-10 decent guilds and 1 really outstanding guild.

That means all of the hardcore players on the server kind of end up there. When most all of the best players on a server are in once place, stuff gets done faster and harder.

I'm curious as to how you rate guilds? Strictly off guild renown?

Of the guilds that have reached level 60 on Orien, only ONE of them has over 200 characters. Most of those guild have less than 40 accounts. Almost all of our top guild are small guilds that somehow keep pace with the HUGE guilds of other servers in terms of guild renown.

To get back on topic, I already informed the members of my guild that if they use this exploit or any other ways of cheating, they are no longer welcome in the guild. This IS an exploit, we'll see if anyone gets banned for it.

PopeJual

02-23-2011, 09:46 AM

I'm curious as to how you rate guilds? Strictly off guild renown?

Of the guilds that have reached level 60 on Orien, only ONE of them has over 200 characters. Most of those guild have less than 40 accounts. Almost all of our top guild are small guilds that somehow keep pace with the HUGE guilds of other servers in terms of guild renown.

I don't usually "rate" guilds outside of Argonessen at all. When one guild on Orien is the one that keeps showing up over and over again in the Achievements forums and in player buzz about who did what on which server, then there's a good chance that the guild has something special going on.

Combine that with the fact that Orien is the newest server and has a fewer old-school characters that are dripping with Shroud and Epic gear (and I hear more complaints about "noobs" on Orien than I hear on most servers) and that's the impression that I pick up.

Quikster

02-23-2011, 09:53 AM

I don't usually "rate" guilds outside of Argonessen at all. When one guild on Orien is the one that keeps showing up over and over again in the Achievements forums and in player buzz about who did what on which server, then there's a good chance that the guild has something special going on.

Combine that with the fact that Orien is the newest server and has a fewer old-school characters that are dripping with Shroud and Epic gear (and I hear more complaints about "noobs" on Orien than I hear on most servers) and that's the impression that I pick up.

AFAIK there are no "Old school chars" on orien. Old school players sure, but they started out with the same thing new players did, nothing.

PopeJual

02-23-2011, 10:14 AM

AFAIK there are no "Old school chars" on orien. Old school players sure, but they started out with the same thing new players did, nothing.

Exactly what I was referring to. Now that Orien has been up for a little while, there are certainly some characters that have more Epic gear than slots to wear them, but that's going to be much more uncommon than on some of the older servers.

Dartwick

02-23-2011, 10:27 AM

Right. Because completion of a quest only happens when you pick up your end reward. Tell me, does the quest say completed or finished in the xp log? Do you have the ability to go pick up your end reward? Was the xp rewarded? If completing on epic does the epic timer start? You obviously see where im going here, looks like my claims arent the clueless ones...

type
/quest completions

Its not a completion.

Clicking the large and obvious "abandon quest" button the devs intentionally put in the game is NOT an exploit.

Ghaldar

02-23-2011, 10:34 AM

/reported for sharing t3h U1+1M4+3 S3KR3+!!!

+1 sir. You made me chuckle about the old days.

k1ngp1n

02-23-2011, 10:37 AM

type
/quest completions

Its not a completion.

Clicking the large and obvious "abandon quest" button the devs intentionally put in the game is NOT an exploit.

17. You will not exploit, distribute or publicly communicate any game error, miscue or bug which gives an unintended advantage within the Dungeons&Dragons Online game world. Bugs should be reported via the Ingame Bug Reporting Form.

...

Turbine has final say over what constitutes a violation of this Code of Conduct.

Now you may disagree, but ultimately Turbine has the subjective power to declare this an exploit, and based on recent behaviors and trends, I suspect they will.

It is not a hard guess that if you loot the end chest and do not get on timer, you are bypassing their intent. You may say, 'They obviously left in the mechanics.' I, however, have little faith in Turbine's control of mechanics. Whether or not it is 'intended' is entirely up to their discretion.

Missing_Minds

02-23-2011, 10:38 AM

type
/quest completions

Its not a completion.

-------------------------------------------intentionally put in the game is NOT an exploit.

Just like all of the land masses that have been removed and changed were not exploits? Right, keep telling yourself this.

You are using something to circumvent the actual intention of how things are to be accomplished. That is an exploit plain and simple.

LordPiglet

02-23-2011, 10:38 AM

AFAIK, the completion count for any raid doesn't go up until you pick up the end reward. I know I've looked before.

However, I don't know of any other raid that you can abandon after looting the end chest.

Dartwick

02-23-2011, 10:40 AM

k1ngp1n

02-23-2011, 10:42 AM

Quikster

02-23-2011, 10:43 AM

type
/quest completions

Its not a completion.

Clicking the large and obvious "abandon quest" button the devs intentionally put in the game is NOT an exploit.

Sure its not. Keep telling yourself the earth is flat.

Until the devs post that this is wai, I'll continue to consider it a mistake someone made, and using it is an exploit.

Same way getting the last two shroud chests without going on timer was an exploit.

stainer

02-23-2011, 10:45 AM

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172475

Bypassing a quest timer or flagging mechanic which allows you to complete a quest or objective more often than allowed.

Missing_Minds

02-23-2011, 10:46 AM

Its not an exploit. Its the way the game works and is obvious.

Yeah, and I figured out a way to self raise an infinite number of times in a quest on a lvl 1 character without the use of ANY item or spell, nor did it require any sort of tricky timing to learn. I could do it whenever I wanted. (yes, I did report it, and it was fixed.)

But according to you, that isn't an exploit, that is just the way the game works. Have fun with your banhammer plastering.

Dandonk

02-23-2011, 10:54 AM

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172475

Bypassing a quest timer or flagging mechanic which allows you to complete a quest or objective more often than allowed.

No! The Turtle Does Not Move! Infidel!

:)

stainer

02-23-2011, 11:00 AM

No! The Turtle Does Not Move! Infidel!

:)

I believe I have given you enough evidence to support that bypassing a timer is an exploit. Further discussion is redundant, like saying "poor play" and "orien", "soul stone" and "Hordo" or "drunken lush" and "Disavowed".

Dandonk

02-23-2011, 11:04 AM

I believe I have given you enough evidence to support that bypassing a timer is an exploit. Further discussion is redundant, like saying "poor play" and "orien", "soul stone" and "Hordo" or "drunken lush" and "Disavowed".

I was not arguing - I am not Dartwick.

I was trying to be a little funny and it seems it fell flat. Oh, well, nothing new :/

(and yes, it IS an exploit)

stainer

02-23-2011, 11:05 AM

I was not arguing - I am not Dartwick.

I was trying to be a little funny and it seems it fell flat. Oh, well, nothing new :/

(and yes, it IS an exploit)

Yah, I realized you weren't him as soon as I posted. I am old, and quite frankly do not care who any of you are. Sorry you got caught in the cross fire.

Dandonk

02-23-2011, 11:07 AM

Yah, I realized you weren't him as soon as I posted. I am old, and quite frankly do not care who any of you are. Sorry you got caught in the cross fire.

Hehe :) No problem, I should've known better than to try and make my ridiculous sense of humour work, let alone work online.

Eladiun

02-23-2011, 11:08 AM

I don't really get why Chrono has a raid timer anyway. It should be timerless like TS and only have the Epic timer for Epics. It's not like there is a special 20 completions end reward list.

Dartwick

02-23-2011, 11:18 AM

stainer

02-23-2011, 11:19 AM

You are are NOT bypassing the epic timer. That is the timer for token and it still effects you.

You are not being effected by the quest timer because you are not getting a completion for the quest(nor the end reward.)

I think this is rather straight forward.

You are wrong. That is the simplest way to put it.

Quikster

02-23-2011, 11:21 AM

Dartwick

02-23-2011, 11:24 AM

You are wrong. That is the simplest way to put it.

Which thing in what you quoted from me was factually incorrect?

stainer

02-23-2011, 11:25 AM

Which thing in what you quoted from me was factually incorrect?

Your forum name probably was the only thing that was correct.

IronClan

02-23-2011, 11:27 AM

Yah, I realized you weren't him as soon as I posted. I am old, and quite frankly do not care who any of you are. Sorry you got caught in the cross fire.

dang wiper snappers get-off-my-lawn! :p

EKKM

02-23-2011, 11:28 AM

type
/quest completions

Its not a completion.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx the devs intentionally put in the game is NOT an exploit.

Well the OP lying and calling people exploiters is technically breaking the rules.
Me pointing out that it isnt an exploit is not breaking the rules.

Its not an exploit. Its the way the game works and is obvious.

The whole point xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.

Lots of things that are in the game allow you to bypass quest/raid mechanics that are still exploits if used inappropriately.

Some of the past ones that have been fixed (so I hope I can refer to them generally):

1- Bugging the STK giant
2- The use of Death Pact in the Shroud
3- Summons bugging various raid bosses

All of which were fixed because they allowed players to use intentional game design in an unintended way to bypass game mechanics.

In short, you are wrong.

Also, Turbine has, on occassion, done mass bannings without any warning
on groups of players exploiting a game mechanic. Keep doing it and see what happens.

+1 OP for calling out the exploiters.

Dartwick

02-23-2011, 11:29 AM

So you are getting an epic token without completion as well? Sheesh.

You can get in an epic token in most if not all the epics with out getting a completion.

It doesnt matter because the the token timer is based on picking up the token - thats why it isnt an exploit.

Eladiun

02-23-2011, 11:31 AM

Also, Turbine has, on occassion, done mass bannings without any warning
on groups of players exploiting a game mechanic. Keep doing it and see what happens.

+1 OP for calling out the exploiters.

We do not speak of the ban-anniversary, or mayban, or renown-ban. Shhhh....

Dartwick

02-23-2011, 11:31 AM

Your forum name probably was the only thing that was correct.

Seriously you must never have run the raid even.

Everything you quoted was factually correct.

Saying it wasnt is lying about me.

stainer

02-23-2011, 11:34 AM

You can get in an epic token in most if not all the epics with out getting a completion.

It doesnt matter because the the token timer is based on picking up the token - thats why it isnt an exploit.

Shards and seals too?

Using an exploit to run a quest more often that allowed is against the rules. You are wrong. A lot of people have basically said "hey, you are wrong, Dartwick". You still insist that you are right and someone might think that it is ok to do this based on your posts, causing them to run the risk of bannantion. I can only conclude that is what you are trying to do, Why would you do that? Is that a fun thing for you?

Dartwick

02-23-2011, 11:38 AM

Shards and seals too?

Using an exploit to run a quest more often that allowed is against the rules. You are wrong. A lot of people have basically said "hey, you are wrong, Dartwick". You still insist that you are right and someone might think that it is ok to do this based on your posts, causing them to run the risk of bannantion. I can only conclude that is what you are trying to do, Why would you do that? Is that a fun thing for you?

Actually yes you get the shards and seals too on all epics with out getting the completion..

All that matters is the token timer. There is no way to avoid it.
You cant avoid it in chono or in any other quest.

Kokanee

02-23-2011, 11:38 AM

One way to make this type of exploit less attractive would be having Epic rewards for every 20th epic completions.

Im just about to hit my 20th epic von6 and am not a single bit excited about it.

19 runs so far and yet to get a SoS shard. :mad:

Maybe on my 20th.... :rolleyes:

/fingers crossed

Thrudh

02-23-2011, 11:38 AM

Well the OP lying and calling people exploiters is technically breaking the rules.
Me pointing out that it isnt an exploit is not breaking the rules.

Its not an exploit. Its the way the game works and is obvious.

The whole point of the "Abandon Quest" button is so you can start a quest over.

Except raids can only be done every 2.5 days... If you can repeat a raid in less than 2.5 days, you are exploiting...

Just because something is possible in a game, doesn't make it okay to do.

You're cheating.

stainer

02-23-2011, 11:40 AM

Actually yes you get the shards and seals too on all epics with out getting the completion..

All that matters is the token timer. There is no way to avoid it.
You cant avoid it in chono or in any other quest.

Turn in the quest - wait 3 days.

Abandon the quest - run again.

You can't do this in any other raid, and the ones you could, they fixed. You are wrong. Abandoning bypasses the timer.

YOUMAKEMEWANTTOPUNCHABABYOMGDIAF

Quikster

02-23-2011, 11:40 AM

Dartwick

02-23-2011, 11:41 AM

You do the Chronoscope raid. Then exit.
Then press abandon before collecting the reward from the quest giver
Then 18 hours later you do the chronoscope raid again.

This is less than the 3 day lockout that you would get if you took the reward from the quest giver.

This is an exploit. Plain and simple. Argue against it however you will, it is blatantly and obviously an exploit. you are using some game features to get round a limitation, I'll let you look up the exact definition about it.

No thats not an exploit. The 3 day timer is for completions - you dont get the completion.
The 16 hour timer is for the token - you cant avoid that timer if you take the token.

The NPCs in the game even explain this too you.

Kokanee

02-23-2011, 11:47 AM

No thats not an exploit. The 3 day timer is for completions - you dont get the completion.
The 16 hour timer is for the token - you cant avoid that timer if you take the token.

The NPCs in the game even explain this too you.

But in this case it is an Epic Raid Token right?

So I believe it should have the 3 day timer.

BLU3_FR0G

02-23-2011, 11:59 AM

Dartwick

02-23-2011, 12:02 PM

The timer is for completion.

stainer

02-23-2011, 12:02 PM

the Timer Is For Completion.

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Zaal

02-23-2011, 12:09 PM

/reported for sharing t3h U1+1M4+3 S3KR3+!!!

But it's not nice to keep secrets! :D

Kokanee

02-23-2011, 12:20 PM

If you are getting an Epic Raid Token it should lock to the normal 3 days timer though.

Spoprockel

02-23-2011, 12:28 PM

So if they introduced another quest chain in U9, where you could talk to the questgiver over and over again
after finishing the chain and you would get named items everytime you talked to him.

Would you say it is okay to do so because it is possible?

Would you claim it was obviously WAI, even though no other questgiver behaves alike?

toughguyjoe

02-23-2011, 12:38 PM

For clarification:

In no other RAID can you loot the chest(s) containing the ultimate goal(In this case, Shards) and then run it again before waiting for Two full days plus Eighteen hours.

Using a "Work-Around" to achieve said goal more often than intended, is against the TOS and could get your account slammed with the Ban Hammer.

Don't do it unless you are willing to assume the risk of losing what you've worked hard for. Then again, if you use such tactics, you don't really work very hard for what you have, do you?

Cyr

02-23-2011, 12:44 PM

Actually getting the end chests and the tokens and the seals and shards and everything and then pulling a trick in order to avoid the raid timer is pretty blatantly, "Bypassing a quest timer or flagging mechanic which allows you to complete a quest or objective more often than allowed."

Agreed, but Turbine even with that statement left some room for interpertation. They should have added the word normally in front of allowed. This would make it clear that even though the game might let you get away with it (ie allowed) through some super secret decoder ring method it's still an exploit.

If Turbine wanted to enforce any exploit they should follow the following guidelines for maximium customer satisfaction and minimium customer annoyance...

a) Clearly state something is an exploit on the forums and in the load menu of the game.

b) Wait a week and then start enforcing infractions of the exploit from that point onwards.

c) Give light (non cumulitive in any manner) punishments for the first offense given for a particular exploit. Further offenses over the same exploit should get harsher, but this avoids the real issue that people still may not have noticed the forum or the loading screen warning.

Alternatively....

a) Give a specific warning about a specific exploit (not a generalized warning about a generalized exploit) to a specific player from a GM when a player is exploiting. Attach no further punishment/flag or anything of the sort to the account except for that particular exploit being used further by that player. If the warning does not make it painfully clear what the player did to exploit then the warning is a failure on Turbine's part and the player should not be punished for using that exploit in the future until a proper warning is given.

b) Further uses of that particular exploit by that player triggers GM action.

The keys here is the warnings must be crystal clear and given to a player about a specific exploit before any punitive action is taken against that player. If you read a warning about an exploit 'involving' x, y, or z then it's NOT CLEAR ENOUGH. It needs to be clear enough that someone with limited mental capacity says "Jeez there is no way to misunderstand that".

stainer

02-23-2011, 12:47 PM

Agreed, but Turbine even with that statement left some room for interpertation. They should have added the word normally in front of allowed. This would make it clear that even though the game might let you get away with it (ie allowed) through some super secret decoder ring method it's still an exploit.

If Turbine wanted to enforce any exploit they should follow the following guidelines for maximium customer satisfaction and minimium customer annoyance...

a) Clearly state something is an exploit on the forums and in the load menu of the game.

b) Wait a week and then start enforcing infractions of the exploit from that point onwards.

c) Give light (non cumulitive in any manner) punishments for the first offense given for a particular exploit. Further offenses over the same exploit should get harsher, but this avoids the real issue that people still may not have noticed the forum or the loading screen warning.

Alternatively....

a) Give a specific warning about a specific exploit (not a generalized warning about a generalized exploit) to a specific player from a GM when a player is exploiting. Attach no further punishment/flag or anything of the sort to the account except for that particular exploit being used further by that player. If the warning does not make it painfully clear what the player did to exploit then the warning is a failure on Turbine's part and the player should not be punished for using that exploit in the future until a proper warning is given.

b) Further uses of that particular exploit by that player triggers GM action.

The keys here is the warnings must be crystal clear and given to a player about a specific exploit before any punitive action is taken against that player. If you read a warning about an exploit 'involving' x, y, or z then it's NOT CLEAR ENOUGH. It needs to be clear enough that someone with limited mental capacity says "Jeez there is no way to misunderstand that".

I want them to run the script and lay the hammer down. Then the 34 of us that didn't do this will have the game to ourselves! Muhahahahaha

Muhahahahaha

Muhaha

ha

Cyr

02-23-2011, 12:50 PM

LOL, wow just wow... what you have are a bunch of people giving you fair warning that this has been considered an exploit in the past and people have been banned for it. Take the advice as it is given or leave it. It's your account. FYI, this 'trick' used to work with other raids and they fixed those.

While this seems fairly clear to me the rule should not be what other players say is an exploit should be avoided or is even close to an exploit.

I've heard almost everything in the game labeled as an exploit by some very vocal people at this point and I don't believe that 99.99% of them are considered exploits by Turbine.

Turbine needs to be crystal clear about exploits. Dancing around only causes issues like the one seen with mabar.

PopeJual

02-23-2011, 12:53 PM

Turbine needs to be crystal clear about exploits. Dancing around only causes issues like the one seen with mabar.

I agree with this sentiment 100%. I'd still suggest listening to people who say that they know someone who was banned for [whatever] because Turbine doesn't seem interested in clarity on these kinds of issues.

Eladiun

02-23-2011, 12:54 PM

EatSmart

02-23-2011, 12:54 PM

I'd agree that this is ambiguous. *snip*

I think the most telling point is that no dev has commented on it. Turbine doesnt comment on exploits, but does comment on cheezy non-exploits. This thread has got to page 5 without any kind of "red by a dev" comment on a weekday. Conspicuous absence of dev comments implies the big E to me.

Then again they've had two patches opportunity to change it and haven't. =/

I'd err on the safe side and not do it to be honest.

Edit: removed text that could be considered a hint at what the action is

stainer

02-23-2011, 12:55 PM

Zaal

02-23-2011, 12:57 PM

ya'llz is "kill'n me softly with yer smack , kill'n me softly".

i hate opening myself up on this issue but really, i don't see it my concern to govern my behavior regards TOS when I play within the boundaries of dev created content.

it's not really my place to say/think/do, "hmm, there's a door in front of me solidly locked... but there's a cubby hole just to right of it that I bet, had I a good jump buff, I'd ba able to bypass the door... Did the devs put that there intentionally? Will I voilate TOS by using it? Is it a hack? I better log out promtly and report it."

nor again is it my purpose to throw up a red flag because I can loot a chest easily... Like that one in Mind Sunder that was easily available to loot just inside the front door. Should I NOT keep looting it, disbanding, looting, disbanding? Am i violating a TOS ? Am I supposed to hear officially from the devs one way or the other?

Or should just enjoy the frigg'n game "as is" and take the ocassional punch whenever the game changes?

Sure, I guess I can make suggestions about how I'd like to see the game change - but coming to the forums and taking a LAWFUL GOOD tact regards what I think might be a hack well, I ain't LAWFUL GOOD!!!!

:eek: MUHAHHAAA!!!! I'm CHAOTIC EVIL YOU NUBZZ!!!!!! :eek:

cdbd3rd

02-23-2011, 12:57 PM

dang wiper snappers ... :p

If I had a resume, I'd put that right next to Bristlepole Propulsion Technician. :D

"Dang Snapper Wiper."

Has a certain ring to it...

:cool: :D

On topic: Yes it is. I think. Maybe. Sounds like one. Kinda. *nods* Yeah, I'm going to say... Definitely maybe...

:p

Quikster

02-23-2011, 01:02 PM

I don't disagree. I was more focused on the everyone who says it's an exploit is an elitist jerk logic conundrum which...is no longer an issue as poof it is gone.

I'd agree that this is ambiguous. An epic completion timer is happening, albeit a timer that would normally be associated with a non-raid epic quest.

I think the most telling point is that no dev has commented on it. Turbine doesnt comment on exploits, but does comment on cheezy non-exploits. This thread has got to page 5 without any kind of "red by a dev" comment on a weekday. Conspicuous absence of dev comments implies the big E to me.

Then again they've had two patches opportunity to change it and haven't. =/

I'd err on the safe side and not do it to be honest.

Yes. Obviously this thread is being watched as several posts have been deleted. No post by a dev when we know someone is watching is a bit telling. That said, Ill consider it an exploit until told otherwise.

Go ahead and do it, far be it for me to tell another how to play. I was under the impression that this was a discussion about the issue not some of us telling others what to do. I could care less, exploit the game till your hearts content, it makes no difference to me.

Zaodon

02-23-2011, 01:03 PM

While this seems fairly clear to me the rule should not be what other players say is an exploit should be avoided or is even close to an exploit.

I've heard almost everything in the game labeled as an exploit by some very vocal people at this point and I don't believe that 99.99% of them are considered exploits by Turbine.

Turbine needs to be crystal clear about exploits. Dancing around only causes issues like the one seen with mabar.

+1 !!!

I remember when everyone was convinced that window-farming was an exploit only to have Turbine finally say its not.

We have NO IDEA what is or is not an exploit, REGARDLESS of what "Generic" rules they place in the ToS, unless Turbine TELLS US how they view it, officially.

Yes, its wise to not do something until we hear from Turbine about it, but that would really only be true if..... we ever heard from Turbine about it. Without a stream of information from Turbine, we cannot, as reasonable players, refrain from any action in-game that we think might be an exploit, because there is no expected communication from Turbine to clarify it for us.

Without the expected, timely, communication from Turbine, we'd all be a bunch of players standing still in the Leaky Dinghy for fear that using the door to exit the tavern may or may not be an exploit, and we're not gonna do it until Turbine says we can.

And that doesn't mean that I am advocating exploits, I am simply saying that the only way to tell one way or another is for Turbine to enact a policy change to post EARLY AND CLEARLY when an exploit is found and that doing it is not allowed. There is no reason Turbine can't do this and still hide the DETAILS of the exploit.

Example:
- Looting the epic tokens from an epic quest without completing the quest is an exploit.

If Turbine said that, it gives nothing away on HOW to do it, but lets the players know that, no matter HOW they do it, doing it is ILLEGAL.

Until Turbine posts this information to the players, they CANNOT reasonably expect every single one of us to have the IQ, common sense, and/or even desire to self-regulate our actions in a video game that we only play to have fun. I am not employed by Turbine, I have no responsibilities here. If I learn something that makes game play easier, I cannot rely on myself or even on other players as to whether it is or is not legal. It has to come from Turbine. The old Window-Farming quests is a PRIME example of this, being something that EVERYONE thought was illegal, only to find out Turbine is ok with it.

Eladiun

02-23-2011, 01:05 PM

+1 !!!

I remember when everyone was convinced that window-farming was an exploit only to have Turbine finally say its not.

You still here that all the time.

EKKM

02-23-2011, 01:15 PM

ya'llz is "kill'n me softly with yer smack , kill'n me softly".

nor again is it my purpose to throw up a red flag because I can loot a chest easily... Like that one in Mind Sunder that was easily available to loot just inside the front door. Should I NOT keep looting it, disbanding, looting, disbanding? Am i violating a TOS ? Am I supposed to hear officially from the devs one way or the other?

Actually I'm pretty sure only looting the first chest and then repeating is considered an offense. IIRC, if you leave a quest early with the intention of getting more loot/XP/whatever then it is an offense. I beleive, technically at least, that leaving shroud before completion is an offense although it is never enforced to my knowledge.

However, I don't know where that is stated which is a problem in itself.

Zaodon

02-23-2011, 01:19 PM

Actually I'm pretty sure only looting the first chest and then repeating is considered an offense. IIRC, if you leave a quest early with the intention of getting more loot/XP/whatever then it is an offense. I beleive, technically at least, that leaving shroud before completion is an offense although it is never enforced to my knowledge.

However, I don't know where that is stated which is a problem in itself.

See? This guy thinks "loot runs" are an exploit. He thinks if you go into a quest, fight (non-exploitively) to a chest, loot it, recall out, and reset, that its somehow, someway an "exploit."

Fact is, Turbine has said CLEARLY that this is acceptable, as long as you aren't bypassing the intended quest mechanics to get to the chest.

Yet, here we have someone who thinks "loot runs" are exploits.

Turbine, if you're reading this, YOU CANNOT RELY ON PLAYERS TO INTERPRET YOUR GAME. You need to POST EXPLOITS PUBLICLY (not the details on how to do them, but just which actions are/are not exploits, based on specific discoveries).

Zaal

02-23-2011, 01:30 PM

YOU CANNOT RELY ON PLAYERS TO INTERPRET YOUR GAME. You need to POST EXPLOITS PUBLICLY

I am so with you on this one ~ +1 for ya!

/sarcasm on

Yeah post them and then wait a few weeks before you um, fix um so that I can try them out, on all my toons, to um make sure they really are exploits !!! :D

/sarcasm off

Tru dat on interpreting the game at least with respect to what is or is not an exploit.
The sun is drying out my brain:confused:

Keybreaker

02-23-2011, 01:35 PM

IIRC, if you leave a quest early with the intention of getting more loot/XP/whatever then it is an offense.

R.O.F.L.

So if you intend to farm chests w/o completions (Shroud, eADQ, Mindsunder, etc) then you're saying it's an exploit... BUT if you just suck and can only reach the first few chests before wiping, then you're golden???

Gimps unite! Gimps shall inherit Eberron!

(Where's my intent-o-meter?)

Zaal

02-23-2011, 01:45 PM

R.O.F.L.

So if you intend to farm chests w/o completions (Shroud, eADQ, Mindsunder, etc) then you're saying it's an exploit... BUT if you just suck and can only reach the first few chests before wiping, then you're golden???

Gimps unite! Gimps shall inherit Eberron!

(Where's my intent-o-meter?)

Well, ya know, they ban toonz for dropping into PvP, taking a crack shotz then jumping out real quick too.

Cuz, per the TOS, if you jump into PvP and don't intend to stay there until you die, or there are no more challengerz, you are a haxtor and i'm sorry but your account is banned.

IronClan

02-23-2011, 02:13 PM

You still here that all the time.

That's because it should be one... I am 100% positive that if you took MadFloyd or Eladrin to the end of Threnal, completed the quest chain, and then proceeded to ransack an end of quest chain named loot chest and something like 75,000 XP in 8 and a half minutes, their response would be:

"Wait wut?!? THATS what you guys mean by "window farming"? Ohhh s*** we better fix that..."

I may be wrong, entirely possible they know how sploit-tacular window farming can be, and they don't care, but I suspect they simply think that window farming is just a way to not have to "run back and retake the quest" (which admittedly is often the only real benefit) and it's only used by players who are "being silly by missing out on all that valuable end reward loot"....

That's my theory anyway.

Zaodon

02-23-2011, 02:19 PM

That's because it should be one... I am 100% positive that if you took MadFloyd or Eladrin to the end of Threnal, completed the quest chain, and then proceeded to ransack a named loot chest and something like 75,000 XP in 8 and a half minutes, their response would be:

1. Threnal does not have a named loot chest at the end. The named stuff is from the NPC as the end reward.
2. Repeating a chain-quest part is no different from repeating a standalone quest. Repeating it by holding the window open does nothing special. Stormcleave has great xp, named loot, and if you skip optionals, takes 8 and a half minutes.
3. Turbine is not "missing" anything, they are well aware of what window farming is, and they said officially that its not, in any way, an exploit.

edit: 4. You are just proving the point even more-so. The fact that you are making a case for a LEGAL action to be viewed as an "exploit" is even MORE EVIDENCE that Turbine CANNOT rely on player interpretation of what is/is not an exploit !!!!

PopeJual

02-23-2011, 02:22 PM

That's because it should be one... I am 100% positive that if you took MadFloyd or Eladrin to the end of Threnal, completed the quest chain, and then proceeded to ransack an end of quest chain named loot chest and something like 75,000 XP in 8 and a half minutes, their response would be:

"Wait wut?!? THATS what you guys mean by "window farming"? Ohhh s*** we better fix that..."

I may be wrong, entirely possible they know how sploit-tacular window farming can be, and they don't care, but I suspect they simply think that window farming is just a way to not have to "run back and retake the quest" (which admittedly is often the only real benefit) and it's only used by players who are "being silly by missing out on all that valuable end reward loot"....

That's my theory anyway.

Casting Jump or chugging a Jump potion lets me farm Sunken Sewer without fighting anyone except for the end boss for a pretty impressive XP per minute rate on a level 2 quest.

I'm pretty sure that just repeating the "good" quests while doing the parts that are less fun isn't an exploit - especially when you can do exactly the same thing with an opener even if you don't hold the window.

Zaal

02-23-2011, 02:28 PM

Casting Jump or chugging a Jump potion lets me farm Sunken Sewer without fighting anyone except for the end boss for a pretty impressive XP per minute rate on a level 2 quest.

That sir is exactly the sort of gaming spirit I admire.
Brainz 1st, Brawn when necessary.

Of course some would have you clear that strategy with mom and dad :confused:

Missing_Minds

02-23-2011, 02:37 PM

grodon9999

02-23-2011, 02:42 PM

How has this gone on 6 pages?

Zaodon

02-23-2011, 02:42 PM

Instead Turbine adopted a policy that people are NOT ignorant, that they understand right from wrong.

According to that logic, window-farming quests is illegal. (even though Turbine explicitly said its perfectly ok to do).

voodoogroves

02-23-2011, 02:51 PM

How has this gone on 6 pages?

No idea.

The thing about Chrono is that the raid loot, itself, is nothing epic-level folks want.

If the 20th completion or epic end reward were something "special" instead of ML5 stuff everyone is going to be swimming in, then there'd be more incentive to actually complete/etc.

Or if it had a flagging mechanic.

IronClan

02-23-2011, 03:25 PM

1. Threnal does not have a named loot chest at the end. The named stuff is from the NPC as the end reward.
2. Repeating a chain-quest part is no different from repeating a standalone quest. Repeating it by holding the window open does nothing special. Stormcleave has great xp, named loot, and if you skip optionals, takes 8 and a half minutes.
3. Turbine is not "missing" anything, they are well aware of what window farming is, and they said officially that its not, in any way, an exploit.

edit: 4. You are just proving the point even more-so. The fact that you are making a case for a LEGAL action to be viewed as an "exploit" is even MORE EVIDENCE that Turbine CANNOT rely on player interpretation of what is/is not an exploit !!!!

1. You're wrong: http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Gate_Chamber
2. [edit] I might be wrong about this one, can't remember if you can repeat gate chamber without windowing or not.
3. is just your assertion, I counter it with my assertion. Obviously I am well aware that they have officially called window farming a non exploit...

4. I am not arguing this tangent, but for what it's worth I totally agree.

Cyr

02-23-2011, 03:52 PM

You realize that all trying to be crystal clear is promoting people to try to rules lawyer their way out of being punished. I see enough of that ________ behavior in real life.

Instead Turbine adopted a policy that people are NOT ignorant, that they understand right from wrong.

The spirit for which a rule/law is intended is followed not the letter.

Complete rubish.

We have the discussion of this thread being bandied about as being not an exploit, window farming being an exploit, and loot running being an exploit all in one thread. This is not even a long thread and all three cases here have about as clear of word as Turbine gives on exploits. Most of the time it is MUCH more nebulous.

I can say that there were two exploits that I personally was convinced were not exploits, but were ruled exploits by Turbine. Both relied upon knowing what the 'intended behavior' was for a specific mechanic/quest. I'm not a mind reader so unless I know what the dev who designed the mechanic/quest intended then frankly I can only guess.

I'm a very well informed gamer. Much more then the normal gamer and if I can not know in all cases then how the heck can the average gamer be expected to decipher what the 'intended behavior' is in many cases? This is particularly true for things that are either brand new in game or have been there for ever and never commented on by Turbine officially.

There would be no rules lawyering with my suggestion.

Turbine finds someone doing exploit X. GM contacts person gives them crystal clear warning...ex "At 7:23 on toon BigBertha you hit xyyzabcde in the party chat window and recieved 1000 xp. This is not intended behavior and is a bug in the code. Using this bug to your advantage is considered an exploit. This is an official warning. If you hit xyyzabcde in the party chat window again you will get a 3 day ban. Thank you for your time ....yadda yadda." Person does it again and gets a 3 day ban and another GM contact explaining the exact reason for the ban just like with the warning. It negates any worry about people not knowing Turbine's intent because they have an official clear warning before any punishment is handed out.

Normalcy

02-23-2011, 03:53 PM

How has this gone on 6 pages?

How has this gone 6 pages without a DEV coming out and saying "Yes this is an exploit so don't do it, or No this is not an exploit carry on..."

stainer

02-23-2011, 04:10 PM

How has this gone 6 pages without a DEV coming out...

Not wanting to start a different argument, but you can get into trouble for mentioning that something that was once in the thread is no longer in the thread.

transtemporal

02-23-2011, 07:50 PM

Illegal to report think crime
Illegal to not report think crime
Exploit is think crime
Think crime is exploit
Report think crime

Missing_Minds

02-23-2011, 07:53 PM

1. Threnal does not have a named loot chest at the end.

Actually, it does. two items from that very last chest guarded by giants. con 4 cold resist neclace and gloves with.. something on it for arcanes.

Missing_Minds

02-23-2011, 07:58 PM

Complete rubish.

*yawn* tl;dr You working for Turbine yet? Didn't think so. Their house, their rules. They go by the spirit. We get to play or get out. Not much to understand there.

Gremmlynn

02-23-2011, 09:24 PM

*yawn* tl;dr You working for Turbine yet? Didn't think so. Their house, their rules. They go by the spirit. We get to play or get out. Not much to understand there.Finally someone who gets it.

I was beginning to think there were no D&D players around here at all. Turbine is the DM. What is right, wrong, just or even sane makes no difference. The DMs word is the only and final word that matters. It's their game and their revenue source to manage how ever they feel fit. The only right the rest of us have is the right to forgo playing their game.

Lerincho

02-23-2011, 09:32 PM

Turbine needs to be crystal clear about exploits. Dancing around only causes issues like the one seen with mabar.

Well they did use to have the Kommunist Kobold to answer exploit questions. Unfortunately, looks like his job ended with Module 8.

mystafyi

02-23-2011, 10:38 PM

Not wanting to start a different argument, but you can get into trouble for mentioning that something that was once in the thread is no longer in the thread.

the fact post have been deleted and no dev has posted shuld give all the red flags you need. Turbines policy is to not comment on expoits and remove posts talking about them. I would bet this post will be gone tommorrow as well...

Vanshilar

02-24-2011, 02:59 AM

The main problem is that Turbine doesn't make it clear what is an exploit and what isn't an exploit. Add to that the fact that there are quite a few things that some players think are exploits but actually are not, based on what Turbine has directly said. For example:

Just like all of the land masses that have been removed and changed were not exploits? Right, keep telling yourself this.

You are using something to circumvent the actual intention of how things are to be accomplished. That is an exploit plain and simple.

yet Turbine themselves have said:

The following activities are NOT considered to be violations, but tactics ("cheesy" or not), that may or may not be "fixed" in the future.

* Using the environment (not a ladder) to climb to another location that does not result in monsters or quest events becoming broken.

In other words, Turbine's position on such things are that they are considered tactics, on par with getting aggro on mobs so that a group member can run around them to do another part of the quest (which is a later bullet point in the same section) and subject to change, but not an exploit.

So it makes it difficult to say whether or not something's an exploit based on a player's opinion. And that's the crux of the problem:

How it works is not what is important. What is intended is.

Unless the players can read minds, it's impossible to know what Turbine intended if they don't say so explicitly. Unfortunately, Turbine has a position of banning people on the basis of "You did something wrong, you know what you did wrong so we're not going to tell you what it was, but you did something wrong, so we're punishing you for it", making it difficult for players to know what it was that they did wrong. In fact the only players that this stance serves are the players that do purposely try to cheat, because they do know that they were cheating; but the players that stumble upon something, didn't know it was cheating and so didn't think twice about (and likely forgot about it), are totally in the dark whenever Turbine decides to ban. For those of you that experienced the Mabar ban, what you got (i.e. form email) is basically all the information that they'll be willing to tell you about why you were punished. (Think back about that event, for those of you that got the ban. Obviously, there was something that you did that flagged your account for the mass banning, that distinguished you from the other accounts that didn't get flagged. Could you figure out what it was right away? Did you know right away "oh, this is what I did wrong, I shouldn't do this in the future"? But that's all the information that Turbine is willing to give for punishments.)

The problem also is that part of the fun of the game is in exploring it in depth and figuring it out. Turbine itself will sometimes try to reward those that do explore the quests and take the time to understand them. For example, although I haven't tried out the quest yet, I was intrigued by this in the release notes:

Undermine

* Players will no longer levitate above a hole in the quest.
* A jumping route across the minefield has been obscured a bit to better indicate that the path is a secondary way across the room.

It would seem like Turbine decided that the path was too obvious, and thus obscured it...so that it's the people that bother to actually explore the quest (note that it's a "secondary way" not the primary way) that would be rewarded with this nugget. Yet not clearly defining the boundary between "exploring" the game and "exploiting" the game makes it difficult for players to know if what they're doing is allowable or not. In other words:

The keys here is the warnings must be crystal clear and given to a player about a specific exploit before any punitive action is taken against that player. If you read a warning about an exploit 'involving' x, y, or z then it's NOT CLEAR ENOUGH. It needs to be clear enough that someone with limited mental capacity says "Jeez there is no way to misunderstand that".

Unfortunately it seems like Turbine doesn't see things that way, meaning yes they do a good job of taking care of the cheaters, but also lose quite a few players that have no idea what they're being punished for and go somewhere else when they get fed up with this policy (especially when Turbine's in-game response to players asking about a punishment is "All future tickets related to this issue will automatically be closed" -- and when asked on about on the forums, the response is "please see in-game support").

Another issue is that even if something isn't working according to what Turbine intended, it's unclear if it's an exploit, or something that players are allowed to do but will be addressed in a future update/patch. So even saying that Turbine didn't intend it to be this way does not necessarily mean it's an exploit. For example, as I've pointed out elsewhere, the level 55 airship currently has more hookpoints than it's supposed to. Turbine has even added this to its list of known issues (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=150534). So any guilds that are currently using the full complement of hookpoints on their level 55 airships are not using them the way Turbine intended. Is this an exploit? Those that are taking a "holier than thou" attitude about exploits should be making sure that their airships are using only the correct number of hookpoints, and no more.

Except raids can only be done every 2.5 days... If you can repeat a raid in less than 2.5 days, you are exploiting...

In no other RAID can you loot the chest(s) containing the ultimate goal(In this case, Shards) and then run it again before waiting for Two full days plus Eighteen hours.

So everyone who does Tempest Spine more than once every three days are exploiting. And before you say "hey that's an exception", well, how do you know that Chronoscope is not an exception? Or that Tempest Spine really isn't just still buggy (i.e. doesn't implement a lockout timer) after all these years? Chronoscope has been out for a while, after all. It goes back to what I was saying earlier about players trying to make statements of fact ("it's an exploit") when they are really statements of opinion.

In fact the only thing that points to this being considered an exploit right now is that posts referencing the specific method used have largely been deleted. But guess what...no one would've known that until this thread started getting pruned by the Turbine staff, so everything said before that started happening was basically idle speculation. On the other hand, it doesn't seem to be a very productive way to find out if something is an exploit or not, when currently the only definitive way seems to be to post about it on the forums and risk infractions to see if the post gets removed.

Turbines policy is to not comment on expoits and remove posts talking about them. I would bet this post will be gone tommorrow as well...

From one of the links in this thread, Turbine has said that you can talk about exploits in general, as long as you don't talk about specific details about how to carry one out.

Not to derail, but when there's 20 top guilds that can't manage to separate themselves from each other by more than a level or two, and ONE in the entire game, is 9 or 10 levels from #2 and then a member of that wildly unlikely statistical outlier seemingly defends a questionable tactic... well... seems like a reasonable question.

Obviously I'm somewhat derailing the thread by even responding to this innuendo. But how Over Raided gets its renown is no secret, or at least isn't for those that pay attention. Just run a lot of raids and epics. What sets it apart is simply the sheer amount of activity that goes on. As I've mentioned elsewhere, a roughly 20-account guild running two ToDs every three days is equivalent (in terms of activity) to a 120-account guild running four ToDs every single day, and I don't mean pugging out half the spots either, but as guild runs. And of course, OR runs a lot of other raids and epics, not just ToD -- and during the day, has TRs going on (which emphasizes killing monsters and completing quests quickly -- which also helps renown gain).

Many of the small top renown guilds are basically the same in this respect; in fact, many of those guilds have similar renown gains as OR when OR was at their level (of course, OR has also slowed down since then due to decay at the higher levels). The difference between OR and the other small guilds is that early on, OR made a conscious effort to stay competitive with the large guilds, despite the ridiculous advantages that large guilds get for renown early on, which meant a willingness to do quests for renown (i.e. do quests that have good renown/minute ratios even if they don't drop raid loot, for example) early on -- and of course, I doubt the big guilds bothered to farm renown early on since they were pulling in 150-250k per day without much effort anyway. So the trend that you see with the top renown guilds is largely what I posted about here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3175327&postcount=3), except that one of the small guilds made an effort early on to keep pace with the large guilds, while the other small guilds are just now reaching the level 70s where the large guilds slow down.

Trying to imply ill of another guild because of the fruits of their labor on an unrelated issue, when the answer is readily apparent to anyone who has bothered to do a cursory examination, is just the sort of baseless "he makes a lot of money, he must be corrupt" or "she got an A on that test, she must've cheated" intellectual laziness that makes excuses for others' success and detracts people from striving to achieve their best.

That is why they got higher than the other "elite" guilds, 20 accounts still nets a small/med guild bonus. No matter how many accounts running content all over the spectrum of levels, can keep up with that bonus when it is being gained by a hard core guild.

Actually if any ~120-account guild had players just as active as OR's players, they would easily be level 100 by now. As I've explained here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=276961), the small/medium guild bonus just means that the guild has the renown-gathering power of around 40 accounts. That is, a 20-account guild for example, gains renown as if it were a guild of 41 accounts (without a bonus) once the bonus is factored in. But a 120-account guild gains renown as if it were a 120-account guild (of course). So the only way a small guild can compete with a large guild in renown gain is if the small guild's players pull multiples of the amount of renown of an average player in a large guild, to match their gain. And in fact, if you look at the top renown guilds, you'd find that this is the case; the small guilds are uniformly pulling much more base renown (i.e. number of heroics, legendaries, etc., even when factoring in the bonus) per account than the large guilds. We're not talking about a minor difference, like the DPS of a khopesh-user versus a dwarven axe user; in DPS terms the difference is roughly that of a rogue without aggro against 0% fort versus the same against 100% fort.

Of course renown decay is now a significant factor for the top renown guilds (small and large alike), but that is the byproduct of having accrued a lot of renown; it doesn't explain how the guilds got there in the first place (when renown decay was not a factor). Also, it is a more significant factor for the large guilds because they have a lower renown/account ratio compared with the small guilds that are currently at similar levels, and not really due to the size of the guild itself; the decay formula itself hurts small guilds more than large guilds. To draw an analogy, Velah's fast healing regen rate is naturally more of an issue when the group has low DPS than when the group has high DPS.

Quikster

02-24-2011, 10:01 AM

I didnt read your whole post van but in regards to your tempest spine comparison, heres the difference.

For tempest spine, you can pick up your end reward, and go right back in without doing anything else other than talking to the quest giver again.

For Chronoscope if you pick up your end reward, you go on timer.

Might it be a mistake? Sure, mistakes are always possible. However a very clear precedent has been set for several years now, that if you complete a raid, you go on timer. The fact that chrono works like this leads me to believe that bypassing that timer in any way other than allowing it to expire is not an intended mechanic.

I got no problem if someone chooses to do this. Its no skin off my back, but to say its intended is so far of a stretch I refuse to buy it until a dev tells me otherwise.

Mudcnd

02-24-2011, 10:05 AM

Not wanting to start a different argument, but you can get into trouble for mentioning that something that was once in the thread is no longer in the thread.

I got a warning once for quoting someone and saying "LOL".

EKKM

02-24-2011, 10:07 AM

See? This guy thinks "loot runs" are an exploit. He thinks if you go into a quest, fight (non-exploitively) to a chest, loot it, recall out, and reset, that its somehow, someway an "exploit."

Fact is, Turbine has said CLEARLY that this is acceptable, as long as you aren't bypassing the intended quest mechanics to get to the chest.

Yet, here we have someone who thinks "loot runs" are exploits.

Turbine, if you're reading this, YOU CANNOT RELY ON PLAYERS TO INTERPRET YOUR GAME. You need to POST EXPLOITS PUBLICLY (not the details on how to do them, but just which actions are/are not exploits, based on specific discoveries).

R.O.F.L.

So if you intend to farm chests w/o completions (Shroud, eADQ, Mindsunder, etc) then you're saying it's an exploit... BUT if you just suck and can only reach the first few chests before wiping, then you're golden???

Gimps unite! Gimps shall inherit Eberron!

(Where's my intent-o-meter?)

This is where I am deriving that statement, I took the time to find the comment in this post. I was hoping that rather than jumping on my statement that I thought the devs considered chest farming an exploit, posters would help me find the correct answer.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172475

In particular:

x- Using any method to repeatedly loot a chest without repeating the quest objectives/content/monster encounters associated with the chest.

x-Using any method to loot a chest or accept quest reward with any character who did not complete the related quest objective from start to finish.
I can see by reading this that in the initially quoted Mindsunder example you kill the baddies to earn that chest so it isn't an exploit.

I didn't know the answer to this becasue I don't farm chests and don't really care what the rules around it are.

And to the point of the thread:

x- Bypassing a quest timer or flagging mechanic which allows you to complete a quest or objective more often than allowed.

stainer

02-24-2011, 10:09 AM

i Got A Warning Once For Quoting Someone And Saying "lol".

Lol!

voodoogroves

02-24-2011, 10:23 AM

Lol!

Well played sir!

I got neg rep once for quoting and in my reply stating only "+1"

Ah well. Time to make soap.

Lerincho

02-24-2011, 10:33 AM

most curious. a thread with the title containing exploit, has lived longer than 12 hours.

Missing_Minds

02-24-2011, 10:45 AM

most curious. a thread with the title containing exploit, has lived longer than 12 hours.

Mods may be watching to see just how far forumites are willing to go? You know, a "lets see what they'll do." instead of using old style heavy handed method.

Lerincho

02-24-2011, 10:58 AM

Mods may be watching to see just how far forumites are willing to go? You know, a "lets see what they'll do." instead of using old style heavy handed method.

probably trying to dig up Kommunist Kobold's remains to bring him back to settle the issue once and for all. Would be nice if what you are saying were true that they were actually using judgement instead of an insta-slap; however, given history on these very forums, I doubt it.

stainer

02-24-2011, 11:05 AM

probably trying to dig up Kommunist Kobold's remains to bring him back to settle the issue once and for all. Would be nice if what you are saying were true that they were actually using judgement instead of an insta-slap; however, given history on these very forums, I doubt it.

I dunno. Things seem a little more restrained recently. I could be wrong, and if you ask my wife I usually am, but it seems that the mods may be a little more considerate.

flynnjsw

02-24-2011, 11:06 AM

Mods may be watching to see just how far forumites are willing to go? You know, a "lets see what they'll do." instead of using old style heavy handed method.

They did that with the death of a certain phrase as well.

IronClan

02-24-2011, 11:07 AM

Obviously I'm somewhat derailing the thread by even responding to this innuendo. But how Over Raided gets its renown is no secret, or at least isn't for those that pay attention. Just run a lot of raids and epics. What sets it apart is simply the sheer amount of activity that goes on.

I was done commenting or responding about that, I have nothing but curiosity at stake, so I decided to let it drop again (I brought up OR's dramatic lead in Vanshilar's guild renown horse races thread), else someone accuse me of having a bone to pick or an agenda. But since you bring it back up; if the top 19 or 20 "elite" performers in any competition aren't even in the same ballpark as the #1 it would seem human nature to question how the other 19 elites were so much less elite than #1. Seems reasonable to me.

You have a self professed interest in statistics, but your guilds "outlier" status seems to be of little interest to you, and you say it's a normal result of being more dedicated and running more raids than the other elite guilds. To the tune of 10-ish(*) levels higher renown than any other elite guild.

If the middle of the pack pro football team scored 15 points a game on average, and the best 9 of 10 elite teams scored from 16 to 20 points on average, but #1 averaged 30, no one else was within 10 points per game... you might ask if they know something no one else does. Or if they were on to some great new strategy or cutting edge tactic.

OR is an elite guild I buy that. I have a harder time with the disparity or "eliteness gap". Apparently none of the other top guilds run nearly as many raids... I'd love to hear from some other elite raiding guilds that they indeed don't run raids like OR does (as many or as often). Or maybe none of them care nearly as much about renown; Or perhaps some policy OR has is boosting their renown efficiency (do you have a mandatory renown potion rule? a "must take renown rewards over loot" rule?) Which may be responsible for them being such a statistical outlier.

The difference between #2 and #3 and #4 was something like 1 and a half or 2 levels... the difference between #2 and #20 was something like 10 guild levels depending on where on your graphs you focused (last I looked, which was last month). But the gap between #1 to #2 is 9 or 10 guild levels(*)

Finally openly asking a question, not even remotely attempting to hide the intention or motivation behind the question, is not innuendo... Your guildie seemed on the face of it to be defending a scetchy tactic, if that doesn't suggest to you that he is familiar enough with the tactic to have participated in it and by extension possibly his guild, then I don't know what to tell you. I'm not saying he FOR SURE participated, I'm saying his post could reasonably lead to that line of inquiry. I believe it was a fair and logical question, even if it is not a flattering one.

(*) (numbers are approximate based on graph he posted late Jan early feb in the guild renown horse races thread; hard to tell honestly because Vansh always only shows the barest snippet of OR's renown level ostensibly because he doesn't want to seem to be bragging).

xTethx

02-24-2011, 11:24 AM

Why is renown farming even mentioned in this thread? It doest give you worldwide firsts, it doesnt give you speed runs, it doesnt give you solo/shortmanning of raids, it doesnt give you constant success of elite/epic raids with no resources used. Those are the qualities that define good guilds IMO. Renown isnt even close to on that list.

Lerincho

02-24-2011, 12:02 PM

I dunno. Things seem a little more restrained recently. I could be wrong, and if you ask my wife I usually am, but it seems that the mods may be a little more considerate.

i would beg to differ.

stainer

02-24-2011, 12:05 PM

i would beg to differ.

We can agree to disagree then. :) I only spoke from my perspective.

Barium

03-08-2011, 07:21 AM

Personally, I would rather not take up the debate. In my humblest of opinions, there should be not punishment of any kind for explaining a situation a player may think to be an exploit of game mechanics. Within a reasonable time, a moderator or the likes should respond to the post and provide a definitive YES or NO response resulting in what should be a dramatic decrease in the said exploit's usage. This information is helpful from my viewpoint in several ways. Firstly, New Players will have a definite source of information to keep their accounts running smoothly and fully functional. Secondly, the arguous debate of these types of incident ceases to exist. Third, a precedent is set and the warning provided for players that continue to use that "workaround" until such a time that it can be repaired and prevented. This would allow Turbine's designated representatives something to work from and begin handing out whatever punishments they believe are fitting. This would better all our online gaming experiences. The line of thought that just because it is discussed openly, that it would be used more frequently I find to be lax in both the management and process that defines Turbine's punishable offenses. While I understand it takes quite a force of personnel to upkeep these files and records, any punishments should be swift and precise. Players, once INFORMED, are taking their digital, virtual lives into their own hands by using "workarounds" in a quest.
I would like to add, those players that use these sorts of things are also creating havoc on the player world. Turbine may have no recourse but to make it so that you receive no rewards of any sort (xp, chests, completions) until the last monster in the quest dies. How terrible would it be to have to actually kill everything in a quest? To actually have to spend REAL time to get that loot? Please, stop using these sorts of things for the sake of all who play.

Tat2Freak

03-08-2011, 10:50 AM

You are are NOT bypassing the epic timer. That is the timer for token and it still effects you.

You are not being effected by the quest timer because you are not getting a completion for the quest(nor the end reward.)

I think this is rather straight forward.
Some of us older folks used to do this in Reaver...until people started getting banned and the barrier went up...its FOR SURE an exploit.

Arnhelm

08-07-2011, 12:40 AM

http://freizeitparkweb.de/dcf/User_files/4c15fae9243dba3d.jpg

IWZincedge

08-07-2011, 07:14 PM

/turn undead