First VON run

[Postumus]

I finally attempted my first VON run last night, and oh what a night it was.


We had a decent 6 man party run the first 4 parts straight through without any problems until Haywire when someone, somehow locked half the party outside the blast doors. No biggee though, we all got our xps and finished out before detonation.


I had run parts 1-4 several times before, but never 5&6. The group wanted to go all the way. It had been so much fun up until then that I thought the raid might be a blast as well. My first Chronoscope raid was certainly fun.



The Beginning of the End:

Our leader converts to a 12-person raid group and the drama starts. A warforged melee asks our wizard if she's got repair spells. She doesn't, so the WF asks me, the sorc, if I have them. I reply "sorry man, I don't have any of those memorized, and I just swapped out a spell yesterday so I can't change anything."


Suddenly its 'what kind of magi don't have repair?' and its 'noob this and noob that.' The Wiz and WF get into it and go back and forth - and this is while we are still waiting for the raid to fill.


We finally get a full group, pretty balanced, and enter in. I both write and say over mic that this is my first VON, so feel free to give instructions, warnings, whatever. I'm there to help and hopefully learn.



VON 5 Begins:

We tear through the first part killing everything, the puzzle tiles go quickly, but then the communication breaks down at the two rooms with the levers. We finally get past that part, get the player with the voice to the chamber, and nothing happens. It isn't working.


This great, hard working FvS (I think) who sort of took charge, figured out that the player who HAD the voice, must have dropped it when he died in the electrical traps. Now things get difficult. Our wizard falls into a pit of lava, one of the clerics does the same or dies in some inaccessible area, and the rest of us are sort of milling around while the one surviving cleric (who was in our original six) is like superman running here, rezzing there, healing there, etc.



The Unraveling

Now there aren't any creatures at this point because we've killed them all, but people are dying right and left from not knowing where to go, falling into lava, dying in traps, etc. Two people dropped, but the FvS kept trying to get us back on track and get us through to the end.


At some point one cleric recalls and re-enters. Then the wizard, who had fallen asleep for about 15 minutes after dying, wakes up and is encouraged by other players to recall as well since her stone is unrecoverable and she won't be able to get to the next part.


As the wizard does so, the WF suddenly fires up its mic and starts grousing about how much xp was being lost, how the group has lost 50% xps b/c of death penalty, and two people re-entering, and how someone being over level caused another 25% reduction (this is a good hour into the raid). But at no time during this tirade did the WF actually offer to help the fvs, rogue, ranger, and two clerics who were frantically trying to get us through this.


I felt useless since I didn't know what was supposed to happen, or where I should go, and with everything else going on, I didn't want to add to the stress level by asking "uhh what do I do NOW???" Everyone seemed on edge. Even our original cleric who was hilarious and very chipper in the beginning, was getting frayed nerves.


Somehow the Fvs and maybe four others (clerics, ranger, and rogue) got us back on track and we completed part 5. It took over an hour and there must have been at least 15 deaths (probably more) and two recalls.



Enter the Dragon

We finally enter into part 6 exhausted. Everyone just wants this to be over. My buddy tells me he'll never do this again, and I just want to finish in order to get away from the whining warforged. At some point after her impromptu nap, the wizard went a bit crazy - well even more crazy. It was probably just too late for her because she gets into another go round with the warforged, and then spent the rest of the night typing non-sequiters into the party chat.


It takes us three tries to destroy all the pillars. I die twice, and I feel like I'm more of a burden than a help. When finally get to face the dragon, everyone except me rushes in to attack. I get the brilliant idea that I'll just cast enlarged spells from waaaay back and suddenly aforce field was going drops and I'm trapped outside the final battle. At least I had a good seat for the final show.



The End

Velah goes down quickly and everyone huddles around the chests. The loot is almost all trash. I don't think a single player was happy with what they got, and then everyone just sort of finishes out without a word.


My buddy and I hang out a while enjoying the amazing view, and then return for an equally disappointing end reward.

The raid had both the worst, most selfish kind of players, and the best, most selfless players. In a sense it exemplified what a random PUG is, but with a 6 person group, three strong players can usually compensate for a couple of new or bad players. With a group of 12, it was a herculean task for five players to make sure we were able to complete.


I thanked the de facto raid leader and our super-cleric afterward in a tell for their personal heroism and perseverance even though the raid had gone sour. Some of the other people I hope I never have to group with again. Overall, it was exhausting, aggravating, and unsatisfying.


I can't wait to run it again in three days. :)

[Propane]

Thanks for sharing!

[Postumus]

np! :)

[Zilta]

Props to you for doing it that quickly with so few people knowing the quest and for sticking with it despite the problems within the group. Your mention of people releasing reminded me of way back when it was a regular tactic (for some) in that quest to recall and get sp back to complete it

[Rhev]

Props to you for doing it that quickly with so few people knowing the quest and for sticking with it despite the problems within the group. Your mention of people releasing reminded me of way back when it was a regular tactic (for some) in that quest to recall and get sp back to complete it

hells ya zilta i remember "the good ole days" they were a *****

[skepticalsoul]

cool story bro

[Lifespawn]

Hi and welcome to the pug raid scene not all are that bad and an hour with all the trouble you had was a good time for von 5 at level.

Run it a few more times and you'll have the hang of it if you want to learn the puzzles i know there are walk throughs around.

Good luck in future pugs

[PNellesen]

Sounds almost IDENTICAL to the first two tries on VoN I did, except yours actually made it to VoN6. (Third time was the charm for me, though...)

[herdisleah]

Without the whole 'people stupidly getting themselves killed' part, VON5/6 is normally pretty fun. Give it some time on another day, I'd suggest. Some of the raid loot is pretty amazing at level.

But as an arcane to another :P I dont think I ever took any kind of repair spell until I got Reconstruct - until then I just wand-healed the wf.

[iraiqat316]

Well, at least you completed. Remember if you PUG (raid or otherwise) that you increase the difficulty by 200%

[elricken]

Scintillating tale, I must say.

[Postumus]

Sounds almost IDENTICAL to the first two tries on VoN I did, except yours actually made it to VoN6. (Third time was the charm for me, though...)

That's encouraging. I would have felt awful if we hadn't finished part 5 - and for a while there it looked like we wouldn't, which is clearly why two people dropped.


Like I said, it was entirely up to maybe four or five individuals who just weren't going to give up, and they dragged us through it. I can't thank them enough.


I've been on many Chronoscope raids, which I realize is a much simpler raid, and I have even led one for our guild at level. I've only done Tempest Spine once, but that seemed like a cakewalk since everyone followed directions well and there were four or five vocal leaders who all seemed on the same page even though it was a random PUG.


I know its a combination of communication, knowledge, and leadership that determines the overall success of the run, and it just seemed like we were really struggling in two of those areas. After a while I felt like I was watching someone trying to herd cats.

[Crimsonplayer]

My first VON 5 and 6 ended up with me soloing the end with a lvl 9 light monk we had 25 deaths no one knew what to do it was bad. We tried VON 6 and got raped by Velah after she cometfalled the whole party and 10 died.

[Crimsonplayer]

Well, at least you completed. Remember if you PUG (raid or otherwise) that you increase the difficulty by 200%

PUG's dont make it 200% harder........... well........... atleast on Sarlona. Ive had no problem PUGGING any raid with great ease even with new people

[Acehole31]

+1 to you, thanks for sharing that great story. It's just as you say, that is a cross-section of Sarlona PUGs; The best and the worst thereof. Look to the best for your example to strive for, the cleric playing superman, the FvS taking charge, the rogue, er, rogueing it up, these are the things one might could strive to be.

I'll grouse from time to time myself, I know how the WF in your party feels. Then again, I don't expect an arcane to play healbot specifically for me and only me, nor do I sit around doing nothing and complain when I could be contributing and complaining. :P In my experience, PUGs are usually not bad. Some don't know any better sure, but most will take direction and are willing to learn. I've always been willing to teach so perhaps that's why I usually have little problem.

[GrampaBill]

Suddenly its 'what kind of magi don't have repair?' and its 'noob this and noob that.' The Wiz and WF get into it and go back and forth - and this is while we are still waiting for the raid to fill.

The proper response for you and the wiz would be "we'll be happy to wand whip you to full health as soon as you give some wands to us".

[Thaxlsillyia]

1. You completed an at lvl VON 5 and 6 on first try. Hats off.. It takes a while to get the hang of the dungeon.... all the **** passages still look the same to me :(. And to do it in 1 hr is really really good.

2. :) in a raid like VON which can get long and drawn out it is important for a wiz to help the healer of fleshies by repairing the warforged... esp if the quest is being done in hard/elite as the shrines don't reset and you could end up with a spell point shortage. A sorc is usually not be expected to do this due to your spell book limitations. Going out of the dungeon to recharge is one way to get around it.

3. In a PUG group you will have a Mr Nice Cleric, Ms Naughty Ranger, Mr Grumpy barbarian, the lost rogue and the insufferable (warforged in your case). I do not think you will never run into similar characters in a guild run... With a short quest you might not notice it. But the length of VON5 brings out the best and worst in ppl.

4. :D you are probably gonna see just vendor thrash the next time you run it.... But it might, just might be the day you get a sword of shadows or some nice boots...

<packs bag and heads to the vault>

[LordPiglet]

Well, at least you completed. Remember if you PUG (raid or otherwise) that you increase the difficulty by 200%

Actually, the pug's do seem to be improving. Generally at most you have 1 bad player (in a 6 man).

Realistically, Von 5 is sub 30 minutes as long as you meet the requisites for the 6 switch doors.

The problem is you get too many people piking and it slows stuff down, or someone doesn't do the wheels right (or someone touches them afterwards).

Von 6 can be the bigger problem. A large part of that is simply in poor instructions to the Divines on where to stand and maybe some of them not being used to using masses with an anchor. Right now my FvS is running this every three days and I will gladly heal Von 6. I do need to work on my skills at healing while in melee, as normally I just equip devotion items for the final fight.

[BigNastyMP]

Heal your warforged companions, there are no good reasons not to.
Carry a stack of 100 reconstruct scrolls. If they are too expensive for you, ask some warforged for donations and/or have a bard buy them for you. Price should not be a reason to be woefully unprepared. You will need these scrolls for future raids like VoD and the Shroud.
Carry the reconstruct spell. There are few must have level 6 spells, you can spare the spell slot. Level 6 scrolls are your friend.

No matter how bad it seems in a pug, at least you had people who know the quest and could, with heroism and perseverance, get you through. Imagine a level cap of 10, going in there for the first time, ever, with no one knowing anything about the quest. We must have attempted Velah 20 or 30 times before we even had a clue about how to even pretend about thinking of how to approach the beast. It was a different raid then, you had to walk uphill through the snow both ways in part 5 and... :rolleyes:

[Postumus]

The proper response for you and the wiz would be "we'll be happy to wand whip you to full health as soon as you give some wands to us".


The wiz actually said she'd be happy to memorize the spell if the WF would purchase the scroll for her. The WF wasn't too keen on that and just kept ranting.


I've wand whipped for WF before, I hate it. I'm not playing a sorc to heal people, I play a cleric, bard, or FvS for that. There are much better things for me to do in combat than spam the wand clickies for someone who chose not to get healer's friend.


I'd consider memorizing reconstruction if the WF was willing to pay for the plat to swap my spell out (and back once I'm done); otherwise I'm not wasting one of four spell slots on a spell I might need to use once every forty pugs. If I were a wizard, sure, but not as a sorc.

[Postumus]

Heal your warforged companions, there are no good reasons not to.
Carry a stack of 100 reconstruct scrolls. If they are too expensive for you, ask some warforged for donations and/or have a bard buy them for you. Price should not be a reason to be woefully unprepared. You will need these scrolls for future raids like VoD and the Shroud.
Carry the reconstruct spell. There are few must have level 6 spells, you can spare the spell slot. Level 6 scrolls are your friend.



I would carry a stack of reconstruct scrolls np. It sounds like a reasonable suggestion to pick one up if I plan to run more raids. I didn't see them at the guild vendors though, so I'll have to run around to see who sells them.

[Acehole31]

I would carry a stack of reconstruct scrolls np. It sounds like a reasonable suggestion to pick one up if I plan to run more raids. I didn't see them at the guild vendors though, so I'll have to run around to see who sells them.

The Portable Hole level 6 scroll vendor sells them in infinite abundance, which is a good thing since I have NO idea what my arcanes would do without them. A tip for you: Once you hit max, or even level 17 or so, it is an EXCELLENT idea to keep Reconstruct mem'd full-time even if you happen to be a fleshie. It is not your job to be some random Warforge's personal healbot, true; It may someday be your job in a given situation however, and by alternating the spell and the scroll you will perform that duty with panache.

[LordPiglet]

The wiz actually said she'd be happy to memorize the spell if the WF would purchase the scroll for her. The WF wasn't too keen on that and just kept ranting.


I've wand whipped for WF before, I hate it. I'm not playing a sorc to heal people, I play a cleric, bard, or FvS for that. There are much better things for me to do in combat than spam the wand clickies for someone who chose not to get healer's friend.


I'd consider memorizing reconstruction if the WF was willing to pay for the plat to swap my spell out (and back once I'm done); otherwise I'm not wasting one of four spell slots on a spell I might need to use once every forty pugs. If I were a wizard, sure, but not as a sorc.

It's not my job to take care of a fleshy who can't heal himself when I'm on my WF LoB, especially when single target heals cost me a consumable ;)

Just because I have the ability to heal to make a group run better, why should I?


I'm not saying the WF player was in the right, I wasn't there and I don't see a reason for someone to be beligerant. The bottom line though is that in at least 2 high end raids, Arcanes are expected to be able to handle certain duties, which include taking care of the WF tank, so that the Divines mana can go farther and take care of the other 11 players. My FvS currently carries scrolls for spells I will never need for myself. I carry them to make everyone elses life easier. However, if I need to swap out a spell, that's a cost I eat, that a cost of playing the game centered around group play. If the difference between a failure and a successful raid is you carrying one spell, wouldn't you rather have that spell and ability?

[Acehole31]

It's not my job to take care of a fleshy who can't heal himself when I'm on my WF LoB ;)

Just because I have the ability to heal to make a group run better, why should I?

Because in a given situation, that was what you were accepted into the group to do. For instance, Reconstructing the WF tank when you're playing the Arcane in a VoD. If that's what you were accepted and asked to do...It would be a totally different situation if you made it clear from the getgo that your character is not made to perform a certain task, I.E. WF LoB not healing. That's fine, you're a DPS slot instead of a healer slot and can even help out with healing should things turn south.

And the real question here is if you have the ability to heal to make a group run better, why WOULDN'T you?

[LordPiglet]

Because in a given situation, that was what you were accepted into the group to do. For instance, Reconstructing the WF tank when you're playing the Arcane in a VoD. If that's what you were accepted and asked to do...It would be a totally different situation if you made it clear from the getgo that your character is not made to perform a certain task, I.E. WF LoB not healing. That's fine, you're a DPS slot instead of a healer slot and can even help out with healing should things turn south.

And the real question here is if you have the ability to heal to make a group run better, why WOULDN'T you?

As someone who runs a WF FvS I won't say my opinion on those who won't heal. I have no problem with people not wanting to play a nanny-bot, as I don't play one. However, there are some situations where it's okay. Personally, I prefer to run with people who can bring more to the table then just a heal. I'll buy a hireling if I want that.

As I said, personally, I don't have any single target heals, I care cure critical wands, Heal scrolls, and have taken every mass cure available to me. In a group (which I don't pug right now, I run with friends) heals are on my 95% of the time as I'm helping dps, or pulling a train through a blade barrier. I'll wand whip poison, scroll restoration, even use a curse removal and give you **** about why you don't have lesser restoration pots (for stat damage), poison pots, remove curse pots etc. If I hear you take a crit, I'll give you **** about a lack of fortification (and might even give you an item). In a raid (I've only done VoN and DQ right now) I'll put on the devotion item, find my heal anchor and make sure the high dps people make it though for the completion. I know I'm not as high dps as a well build fighter or barb, I have no problem pulling up and taking care of a group when putting myself into a bad position might have a negative impact on the ability to get the completion. As I do work to improve my play on my FvS I probably will move back towards a adding dps while heals on me role in some raid situations.

My other characters, when capable will wand whip those too lazy to buy pots or bring enough pots in teams, will wand whip and heal themselves with whatever means necessary and possible without waiting on a divine (or reconstructor). I'm even in process of completing gs Charisma skills goggles on Aly and will be crafting a set for Ar and Pork. They'll give her extra spell points for raid buffing to help the healers save some mana and help make it easier to toss heal scrolls without having to change a ton of gear out. Especially on her, I'm using consumables more on other people, then on myself. I don't think good players expect to have nanny bots, but are aware there are some situations that may call for them. I think they expect everyone to use their share of consumables though, be it a repair wand, reconstruct scrolls, heal scrolls, or cure wands. I personally got a talking to about not taking care of things like curses and lesser restoration, and topping off with pots. Since then, I've always carried them.

Personally, my WF barb is my least favorite character. I have him because I thought it would be fun to try and sometimes they're needed. I've seen more groups and been in a few groups just waiting on a WF to come tank sully. Too many times that WF has underperformed, and the raid was much more resource intensive then necessary. I can 200 pots on my barb and take them when ever necessary. But it's my least self-sufficient character and it feels limiting. As a result of this I'll actually end up pressing to epic out Aly's gear to up her AC to the levels that she can easily tank Sully, I'm sure I'll keep the Barb, but probably mainly use him to farm up shroud ingredients.

tl;dr What Ace said, but self-reliance good.

[Zharfie]

As the wizard does so, the WF suddenly fires up its mic and starts grousing about how much xp was being lost, how the group has lost 50% xps b/c of death penalty, and two people re-entering, and how someone being over level caused another 25% reduction (this is a good hour into the raid). But at no time during this tirade did the WF actually offer to help the fvs, rogue, ranger, and two clerics who were frantically trying to get us through this.

next time someone shouts nonsense like this, feel free to correct them...

when someone dies, the group loses +10% bonus from not dying
when someone re-enters, the group loses +10% bonus from not re-entering

the group has then lost 20% in bonuses

the one who re-enters gets an extra penalty of -20%, this increases if the same person re-enters again... this penalty increases up to -90% on the fifth re-entry, but it *does not* affect the rest of the group.

anyway, good job not rage-quitting and actually completing! ;)

[shadowhop]

Because in a given situation, that was what you were accepted into the group to do. For instance, Reconstructing the WF tank when you're playing the Arcane in a VoD. If that's what you were accepted and asked to do...It would be a totally different situation if you made it clear from the getgo that your character is not made to perform a certain task, I.E. WF LoB not healing. That's fine, you're a DPS slot instead of a healer slot and can even help out with healing should things turn south.

And the real question here is if you have the ability to heal to make a group run better, why WOULDN'T you?

I do not agree that an arcane should always heal the warforged, because my dwarven wizard is not specced in force/repair (like most arcane wf have) and therefore worse in healing an warforged then a normal divine if the tank also did his part by taking healers friend.
Only in a raid like tower where its nice to have three people that can heal (two divines and one arcane) it would be handy, then i would change my spell to a reconstruct spell. But to say that it is needed from lvl 12 onwards is a bit weird in my eyes.

ontopic:
Nice job mate, finishing von 5 is often an tiresome job at level and then getting everyone to listen to succeed in von 6 is even better. :)

[Postumus]

I'm not saying the WF player was in the right, I wasn't there and I don't see a reason for someone to be beligerant. The bottom line though is that in at least 2 high end raids, Arcanes are expected to be able to handle certain duties, which include taking care of the WF tank, so that the Divines mana can go farther and take care of the other 11 players. My FvS currently carries scrolls for spells I will never need for myself. I carry them to make everyone elses life easier. However, if I need to swap out a spell, that's a cost I eat, that a cost of playing the game centered around group play. If the difference between a failure and a successful raid is you carrying one spell, wouldn't you rather have that spell and ability?


I agree that the ability to heal ANY other player only brings more to the table. I play a cleric, bard, and ranger and have had to do lots of healing and group spells to keep the party alive.


I certainly don't mind tossing a scroll reconstruct if things look bad for the WF while its fighting, just like I don't mind hitting any other player in need with a healing scroll, wand, rez, buff, whatever. I've got my group's back in a jam, and I'm willing to help out any way necessary, but I am also not someone's red bar battery. A WF who can't self heal better be topping off between fights with its own pots/scrolls/wands - just like any other class that can't self-heal should be doing.


Again, if I were a wizard, np, but I'm not going to eat 5k plat to swap spells for one quest for one person, then be stuck with a useless spell for three days thereafter only to have to spend another 5k to swap back to one that will do me some good. If you are going to be any race or class, you'd better be somewhat self-sufficient, and building a WF melee who can't take maximum advantage of a clerics mass heals or healing bursts is short sighted.


As a sorcerer my SPs can be better spent preventing damage to the entire party with CC, nuking, and buffing rather than acting as a dedicated bandaid for one player regardless of race, class, whatever.


Maybe it's my bias toward WF in general since I see the race as an anathema to DnD. Maybe it was that one abrasive individual in that particular PUG that just rubbed me the wrong way. I don't know.


But you guys have made some good points about team play, etc and I did go out and purchase a stack of reconstruct scrolls.

[Postumus]

The Portable Hole level 6 scroll vendor sells them in infinite abundance, which is a good thing since I have NO idea what my arcanes would do without them. A tip for you: Once you hit max, or even level 17 or so, it is an EXCELLENT idea to keep Reconstruct mem'd full-time even if you happen to be a fleshie. It is not your job to be some random Warforge's personal healbot, true; It may someday be your job in a given situation however, and by alternating the spell and the scroll you will perform that duty with panache.

Well said.

[wax_on_wax_off]

In normal quests I'd definitely suggest that WF carry repair wands to give to friendly arcanes.
There are much better spells to have as a sorcerer than any repair spells, even reconstruct.

Disintegrate and Flesh to Stone are the priorities for a non-WF sorcerer. Reconstruct is a possible third choice along with Mass Suggestion, Acid Fog and Chain Lightning. Greater Heroism, Reconstruct and True Seeing can be scrolled.

My experience with WF melees while leveling is that they often don't take healers friend and then expect to be healed or repaired without recompense. I find other people to group. Obviously when you get to end game raids things balance out but WF should still at least take healers friend I in conjunction with some healing amp items.

Good job on sticking it out, it'll get easier once you get the hang of the raid.

[wolf6312]

Thanks for sharing! ..Great story.

[Deaeth]

No matter how bad it seems in a pug, at least you had people who know the quest and could, with heroism and perseverance, get you through. Imagine a level cap of 10, going in there for the first time, ever, with no one knowing anything about the quest. We must have attempted Velah 20 or 30 times before we even had a clue about how to even pretend about thinking of how to approach the beast. It was a different raid then, you had to walk uphill through the snow both ways in part 5 and... :rolleyes:

Part 6 was a blast back then. Only 1 person on a bridge at a time. Man I wish it was still like that. Turbine/WB needs to stop "dumbing down" the game. Keep it challenging!