Half Orcs Online is broken.

[Dartwick]

For a combination of reasons the best race for every melee class is Half Orc(once you get past lvl 14 or so). So if you want to help youre group the most you either play a caster type or a half orc.

Reasons why this exists.

1 AC is useless in the end game.
You simply cant have high enough AC to matter unless you totally gimp your character in all other ways. Im not talking being unhittable , I just mean useful AC.
So all stats and enhancements that help AC really dont matter.

2 Finesse is useless in the end game.
Nearly all damaging abilities of weapon either dont work or dont matter(stat damage, vorpal etc.)

3 DR is too low to matter relative to monster damage.

4 Half Orcs are great at the only 2 thing that matters now that Turbine removed most of the nuance from D&D - being strong getting damage bonuses.


Either fix the game(hard to do I suppose) or nerf Half Orcs(easy) - this is getting stupid as is.

[Thrudh]

For a combination of reasons the best race for every melee class is Half Orc(once you get past lvl 14 or so). So if you want to help youre group the most you either play a caster type or a half orc.

Reasons why this exists.

1 AC is useless in the end game.
You simply cant have high enough AC to matter unless you totally gimp your character in all other ways. Im not talking being unhittable , I just mean useful AC.
So all stats and enhancements that help AC really dont matter.

2 Finesse is useless in the end game.
Nearly all damaging abilities of weapon either dont work or dont matter(stat damage, vorpal etc.)

3 DR is too low to matter relative to monster damage.

4 Half Orcs are great at the only 2 thing that matters now that Turbine removed most of the nuance from D&D - being strong getting damage bonuses.


Either fix the game(hard to do I suppose) or nerf Half Orcs(easy) - this is getting stupid as is.

Are you talking about epic or past level 14? Because your points may apply to epic, but they sure don't apply to 14+ quests.

[AZgreentea]

I guess if you play with a bunch of Min/Maxers, that might be true. Min/Maxing isnt my idea of fun, though.

[Dartwick]

Are you talking about epic or past level 14? Because your points may apply to epic, but they sure don't apply to 14+ quests.

The thought that Half Orcs are hands down the best melee definitely applies to everything after 14 or so(yes twinked characters can stretch that up to 18 or 19.)
Epic just exaggerates the issue even worse than regular high level quests.

At level 14-15 modestly useful AC starts to be un-obtainable unless you have twinked items or special AC build that sacrifices everything else.

[Jonny_D]

I guess if you play with a bunch of Min/Maxers, that might be true. Min/Maxing isnt my idea of fun, though.

Despite it not being your idea of fun. Min/Max definately dictates much of how the game is balanced at "end game". Can you imagine if the game were only geared to be a challenge to flavor builds... min/max players would obliterate content even more than they do now.

[NaturalHazard]

The thought that Half Orcs are hands down the best melee definitely applies to everything after 14 or so(yes twinked characters can stretch that up to 18 or 19.)
Epic just exaggerates the issue even worse than regular high level quests.

At level 14-15 modestly useful AC starts to be un-obtainable unless you have twinked items or special AC build that sacrifices everything else.

useful ac at level 14-15 requires a special AC build that sacrifices everything else? so a 1 or 2 splash of monk is going to completely sacrifice everything else? really? and a lot of monks are still pwning things at level 14-15 and a lot of them have useful ac for that level.

[sephiroth1084]

It's entirely possible to get useful AC for everything but epic content while still maintaining reasonable DPS, and what's more, it's often very useful. Just because you don't ever bother with an AC tank for ToD or VoD (do you sit around waiting for a WF tank?) doesn't mean that it isn't useful or viable.

Warforged are clearly in contention, as they offer benefits that Horcs don't, such as offering the party greater flexibility in composition for tanking situations, not to mention that they're quite a bit hardier. Dwarves, too, are tougher, which can be important. If you're comparing one barbarian vs. the other, the difference in Con scores probably doesn't make a huge difference in ability to play the main tank, but if you're comparing fighters that 40-60 HP makes a big difference. Ditto for other classes.

Halfling is probably still better for rogues, as you kind of want some Int and Cha, and halfling ends up being more damage and more to-hit, which is important for a class that doesn't get many to-hit bonuses. And it's at least pretty close for monks as well, for the same reasons.

Half-elf can bring more DPS to TWFers via the Rogue Dilettante (3d6 SA damage vs. +4 Str and PA +3).

Some builds need the extra feat that humans provide more than the extra DPS that horcs give.

They're good, but they're not the absolute best race for all melees.

[NaturalHazard]

For a combination of reasons the best race for every melee class is Half Orc(once you get past lvl 14 or so). So if you want to help youre group the most you either play a caster type or a half orc.

Reasons why this exists.

1 AC is useless in the end game.
You simply cant have high enough AC to matter unless you totally gimp your character in all other ways. Im not talking being unhittable , I just mean useful AC.
So all stats and enhancements that help AC really dont matter.

2 Finesse is useless in the end game.
Nearly all damaging abilities of weapon either dont work or dont matter(stat damage, vorpal etc.)

3 DR is too low to matter relative to monster damage.

4 Half Orcs are great at the only 2 thing that matters now that Turbine removed most of the nuance from D&D - being strong getting damage bonuses.


Either fix the game(hard to do I suppose) or nerf Half Orcs(easy) - this is getting stupid as is.

So half orc is the best race for paladin now is it? and the useful things a warforged brings, being able to be reconstructed, not to have curses stop healing dont matter anymore? Also the extra hp a warforged and dwarf get compared to a half orc?

[NaturalHazard]

It's entirely possible to get useful AC for everything but epic content while still maintaining reasonable DPS, and what's more, it's often very useful. Just because you don't ever bother with an AC tank for ToD or VoD (do you sit around waiting for a WF tank?) doesn't mean that it isn't useful or viable.

Warforged are clearly in contention, as they offer benefits that Horcs don't, such as offering the party greater flexibility in composition for tanking situations, not to mention that they're quite a bit hardier. Dwarves, too, are tougher, which can be important. If you're comparing one barbarian vs. the other, the difference in Con scores probably doesn't make a huge difference in ability to play the main tank, but if you're comparing fighters that 40-60 HP makes a big difference. Ditto for other classes.

Halfling is probably still better for rogues, as you kind of want some Int and Cha, and halfling ends up being more damage and more to-hit, which is important for a class that doesn't get many to-hit bonuses. And it's at least pretty close for monks as well, for the same reasons.

Half-elf can bring more DPS to TWFers via the Rogue Dilettante (3d6 SA damage vs. +4 Str and PA +3).

Some builds need the extra feat that humans provide more than the extra DPS that horcs give.

They're good, but they're not the absolute best race for all melees.

+1 you said it better than my attempt.

[Valiance]

I guess if you play with a bunch of Min/Maxers, that might be true. Min/Maxing isnt my idea of fun, though.


Does anybody else read statements like these like this:

"I guess if you play with a bunch of people who are good at the game, that might be true. Being good at the game isn't my idea of fun, though."

Then I laugh to myself.

V

[Chai]

This was getting stupid a long time ago and didnt just start with Half Orcs. hOrcs are only the latest addition to stupid. :p

We were able to get HUGE str scores and melee damage bonus for a while now. My guildies have an office pool on the next hilarious adjective that will be used for the next stacking str bonus. Profane bonus was just too friggen laughable. Yeah I got some high &%$@ing str bro....

The window Turbine had in order to do anything about this stuff is right after the Shroud came out ~end of year 2007. There have been quite a few items and abilities added since then that add to str, most of which stack.

[NaturalHazard]

This was getting stupid a long time ago and didnt just start with Half Orcs. hOrcs are only the latest addition to stupid. :p

We were able to get HUGE str scores and melee damage bonus for a while now. My guildies have an office pool on the next hilarious adjective that will be used for the next stacking str bonus. Profane bonus was just too friggen laughable. Yeah I got some high &%$@ing str bro....

The window Turbine had in order to do anything about this stuff is right after the Shroud came out ~end of year 2007.

You got a bard with over 80 str right?

[jkm]

It's entirely possible to get useful AC for everything but epic content while still maintaining reasonable DPS, and what's more, it's often very useful. Just because you don't ever bother with an AC tank for ToD or VoD (do you sit around waiting for a WF tank?) doesn't mean that it isn't useful or viable.

I don't think this is necessarily true anymore. Yes, it works on all of the content before the devs decreed that AC wasn't going to be a factor (IE sometime after VoD), but each wave of new content has demeaned the value of AC even more.

let's take Diplomatic Impunity -> level 12 quest so it should be equivalent to Wizzy King or Chains on elite.

the golden range for the desert quests is around 50. so on elite, you should see grazing hits on any AC from 41 up. in DI elite, the initial scorp spawns do not show grazing hits with a 50 AC. that means that the to hit bonuses for a level 12 quest are higher than that of gianthold (level 14).

So while i agree with you about meaningful AC, i also agree with the OP that AC is on a path to being meaningless at all levels.

[grodon9999]

At level 14-15 modestly useful AC starts to be un-obtainable unless you have twinked items or special AC build that sacrifices everything else.

That's not true, but Epic is still the Special Olympics of DDO where the ******** H-orc is the champion.

Epic is being "rebooted" so there's hope.

[Chai]

Does anybody else read statements like these like this:

"I guess if you play with a bunch of people who are good at the game, that might be true. Being good at the game isn't my idea of fun, though."

Then I laugh to myself.

V

Its funny when people try to banter this in a PnP session, and then use the euphamism "optimizers" to cover up what they are really doing, because even min maxers hate being called min maxers, heh.

I agree that building a good melee toon in DDO = maxing out str in most cases. Even bards and rogues are starting with the max and adding all level ups into str. Its too bad that there arent more fights with mobs that attack mental stats.

The fact that we cannot even come close to attaining the same scores in all stats is where the hilarity ensues here. Could you imagine a sorc with 76 sustainable CHA, or a monk with a 58 in like four stats?

[Samadhi]

Despite it not being your idea of fun. Min/Max definately dictates much of how the game is balanced at "end game". Can you imagine if the game were only geared to be a challenge to flavor builds... min/max players would obliterate content even more than they do now.

qft. Regardless of whether you want it to or not, min-maxing is going to be where things are balanced on, which in turn makes flavor choices even more suboptimal. Balance is a win for everyone, developers and those of us that prefer variety especially.

[Chai]

You got a bard with over 80 str right?

Sits in the 60s.

Now If I could have any other stat with an 80 this might be balanced, opening up more options. Then it would still be ********, but equally ******** for everyone.

[NaturalHazard]

Sits in the 60s.

Now If I could have any other stat with an 80 this might be balanced, opening up more options. Then it would still be ********, but equally ******** for everyone.

ok haha maybe I got the haggle skill and str state swapped over, but yeah str is something that you can boost so easy compared to all the other stats. I admit when I first started I rolled a finesse charactor, and got weapon finesse, all level ups, race and class enhancements into dex. And when I hit titans grip, double madstoned and raged my str is more than my dex, makes me want to cry :(. cant wait to tr him!!!

[grodon9999]

Despite it not being your idea of fun. Min/Max definately dictates much of how the game is balanced at "end game". Can you imagine if the game were only geared to be a challenge to flavor builds... min/max players would obliterate content even more than they do now.

Non min/max builds still obliterate content when good players are behind the keys. I was in an EChrono last week where not one fighter or barbarian was even in the group. How did we even compete without one of the "real" DPS classes there?

One of the biggest lies perpetuated on this forum is your toon has to be a full-****** max-DPS-at-the-expense-of-anything-else-ape to be competitive. It's simply not true.

[NaturalHazard]

Non min/max builds still obliterate content when good players are behind the keys. I was in an EChrono last week where not one fighter or barbarian was even in the group. How did we even compete without one of the "real" DPS classes there?

One of the biggest lies perpetuated on this forum is your toon has to be a full-****** max-DPS-at-the-expense-of-anything-else-ape to be competitive. It's simply not true.

dont paladins count as a real dps class? some ive seen do a lot of damage vs devils?

[grodon9999]

dont paladins count as a real dps class? some ive seen do a lot of damage vs devils?

We did have a pally or two but it was mostly rangers and monks with a ranger tanking the BFD at the end.

But we're getting off topic. The OP's points are valid, variety's the spice of life and it'd be nice if DDO end-game were de-stupided so more builds were viable.

[NaturalHazard]

We did have a pally or two but it was mostly rangers and monks with a ranger tanking the BFD at the end.

But we're getting off topic. The OP's points are valid, variety's the spice of life and it'd be nice if DDO end-game were de-stupided so more builds were viable.

This I can agree with. With how they have it now are they trying to dumb down the game or something? I mean they changed the d8 and added 1-8 in, are they trying to make easyier for the masses? just put everything into STR and the rest into con if your a melee, grab a great big two handed weapon and wack away while you scream at the rest of the party for your jheals and buffs?

[Thrudh]

One of the biggest lies perpetuated on this forum is your toon has to be a full-****** max-DPS-at-the-expense-of-anything-else-ape to be competitive. It's simply not true.

If I hadn't JUST changed my sig, I'd be sorely tempted to change it to this one...

Edit: Oh what the heck, I'll use both! :)

[Hadrian]

the golden range for the desert quests is around 50. so on elite, you should see grazing hits on any AC from 41 up. in DI elite, the initial scorp spawns do not show grazing hits with a 50 AC. that means that the to hit bonuses for a level 12 quest are higher than that of gianthold (level 14).



That's a bad example. Scorpions and spiders have always had unsually high damage and to-hit for their level range. It's not content level that's the problem here, but type of encounter. The scorpions at the start of OOB can be surprisingly nasty too when doing the quest at level.

[Docrailgun]

I guess you neeed to ask yourself why you play the game (and more importantly... why are you sitting here complaining about it?). It sounds like you're not having any fun, therefore you should play a different game in which you will have fun (until you decide it's stupid too).


This was getting stupid a long time ago and didnt just start with Half Orcs. hOrcs are only the latest addition to stupid. :p

We were able to get HUGE str scores and melee damage bonus for a while now. My guildies have an office pool on the next hilarious adjective that will be used for the next stacking str bonus. Profane bonus was just too friggen laughable. Yeah I got some high &%$@ing str bro....

The window Turbine had in order to do anything about this stuff is right after the Shroud came out ~end of year 2007. There have been quite a few items and abilities added since then that add to str, most of which stack.

[Twerpp]

The whole idea is who needs to be pretty or smart when you are a half orc? It's a min/max race that excels only in smashing regardless of class always has been.

Great implementation by Turbine IMO, the enhancements were designed to be useful in the current state of the game. Now that's the area where older races need to be brought up to speed. They were designed for a level 10-16 game and need some work.

I think some other racees need to be looked at, NOT because of half-orcs, but because of the evolution of the game. For example dwarven axe (and other races weapons), 12ap for a +2 to attack and damage is showing it's age. The complete lack of a useful racial weapon for halflings. 10 ap to max action boosts at +5 ( I believe the cost should be less, the duration should scale with AP spent, or amount should raise as +5 is much less significant than it used to be, or offer an epic action boost at +10 and possibly more cost or pre-req).

Half-orcs didn't break ddo they were designed for todays ddo where the other races weren't (yet?).

[Mister_Peace]

Just because you don't ever bother with an AC tank for ToD or VoD (do you sit around waiting for a WF tank?) doesn't mean that it isn't useful or viable.

Apparently Dartwick uses neither an AC tank nor a WF tank for ToD and VoD.

He should try it. Not necessary, but makes things easier.

[Xithos]

OP, you are sadly correct. DDO is a DPS-centric game and Half-Orcs are the race that delivers. I wish AC mattered more in epic on DPS characters, but that ship sank a long time ago.

[kinar]

Its funny when people try to banter this in a PnP session, and then use the euphamism "optimizers" to cover up what they are really doing, because even min maxers hate being called min maxers, heh.

Personally, I dislike it when artsy fartsy "role players" bring down the fun of my min/maxing "roll playing"...

While my outcast personality of being good with numbers and recognizing patterns forces me to be lumped in with thier personality of knowing what color of tie to match with thier shirt/socks and if that is going to look good in the stage lighting for social situations...at least my personality will land me a better job than flipping burgers at mcdonalds while they are figuring out what to do with thier art/theatre/communications degree...

[Lorz]

I believe the saying is....

"You never go full ******."

You didnt go full did you?

[Chai]

I guess you neeed to ask yourself why you play the game (and more importantly... why are you sitting here complaining about it?). It sounds like you're not having any fun, therefore you should play a different game in which you will have fun (until you decide it's stupid too).

I think you completely misinterpreted my post. I am not complaining about the game in its entirety, LOL.

I have all kinds of fun playing. If I did not I wouldnt play.

What I want to see is more viable options at the end game. In order for this to happen, there needs to be more than one viable stat to build a melee toon around. Right now there are three. Str, Str, and......Str. :p

Yes I see exploiter builds soloing VOD and and AC builds tanking both TOD bosses on elite at the same time, but they are the exception and not the rule. The end game is chucked full of max str fighter and barbarian builds. Most rogues and rangers have ~50 str in end game gear.

[Khumbaaba]

I know NOTHING about epic play, except what I read here.

I have a lvl 18 thf burst dps human pally and a lvl 10 ranger/fighter Horc (twf khopesh).

The Horc is a max str build and atm he consistently out dpses the pally. The pally can burst for a metric $%&# ton, but over the long haul, I am certain the Horc will out do the pally at lvl 20.

[sirdanile]

Does anybody else read statements like these like this:

"I guess if you play with a bunch of people who are good at the game, that might be true. Being good at the game isn't my idea of fun, though."

Then I laugh to myself.

V

Why yes, I do in fact read those statements like that.

Though you don't HAVE to min-max to be good at the game I don't see how being worse than you could be is fun? I mean yeah sure flavor builds and all but still...

On Topic: Horcs are still competitive with Warforged and even in some situations humans for melee builds... thing is Horcs are "new" so everyones running them more than the older characters who are already geared to perfection.

[Chai]

Personally, I dislike it when artsy fartsy "role players" bring down the fun of my min/maxing "roll playing"...

While my outcast personality of being good with numbers and recognizing patterns forces me to be lumped in with thier personality of knowing what color of tie to match with thier shirt/socks and if that is going to look good in the stage lighting for social situations...at least my personality will land me a better job than flipping burgers at mcdonalds while they are figuring out what to do with thier art/theatre/communications degree...

artsy fartsy "role players" :p /puts on his robe and wizard hat.

I "roleplay" (bwahahahahaw!!) a 60 str bard, and a 76 str barbarian, because I understand that any PnP build I liked and grew attached to is invalid in DDO. I, like many others, have gone with the one option that is considered valid in the end game of DDO.

Even min maxers usually agree and join artsy fartsy role players in bantering that they are in favor of more options. Any time we get more they got their nose to the grindstone trying to figure out what the most OP combination is between combining the new options with all the old ones on paper. This is likely why druids havent been released yet. 118 str bear-barians, FTW!!! Mine will be surfing on top of vans driving down the road every full moon. "Im not a half orc, Im a human - this is just what I look like half way in between shape changes, bwahahahahahahahahaaar, ahem" **cough. Lawl.

[Robi3.0]

I personally would prefer the a long term fix, over a nerf-tastic band aid.


So instead of nerfing Half-orc how about Turbine fix AC. Making it worth while to wear armor no matter how hard it is to implement would be a why better fix then a short-term solution nerf fest.

[wolflordnexus]

Its funny when people try to banter this in a PnP session, and then use the euphamism "optimizers" to cover up what they are really doing, because even min maxers hate being called min maxers, heh.


Call me a Min Maxer call me a power gamer call me a munchkin whatever you want doesn't really matter to me I'm going to optimize my character and still role play circles around the guy doing all the OOC Hatin.

[LittleM]

dont paladins count as a real dps class? some ive seen do a lot of damage vs devils?
Not by the masses. I've seen plenty of LFMs where barb and fighter are the only ones accepted as DPS. I still have nightmares of a Shroud normal run I was in, that had 2 healers, 1 arcane caster and 9 fighter/barbs. I was one of the fighters mind you.

[Cyr]

Don't worry OP. The next race Turbine puts out is bound to be better then horcs...

[DarkSpectre]

So half orc is the best race for paladin now is it? and the useful things a warforged brings, being able to be reconstructed, not to have curses stop healing dont matter anymore? Also the extra hp a warforged and dwarf get compared to a half orc?

From what i have seen my Halforc Paladin "Lilelvis" is the only capped Halforc Paladin on the Khyber server.

When I compare my Warforged and several Human Paladins, the Dps advantage of the Halforc is very noticeable.
I have found the that enhancement selection to be the toughest part of speccing the Halforc pally.
There are way too many dps enhancements from the paladin line (Divine Sacrifice 1-3, Exhaulted Smite 1-4) and Halforc racial line.
My character basically had to sacrifice a lot of the various "auras" and such enhancements for the damage dealing ones.

My next favorite Paladin is the Warforged one, as he has most of the same Dps enhancements and more con/hps.
Ideal for Vod main tanking and such...

[sephiroth1084]

So while i agree with you about meaningful AC, i also agree with the OP that AC is on a path to being meaningless at all levels.
Not what the OP said.

[donfilibuster]

We need a solution at the root rather than more tweaks and nerfs to pass as balance.

On one hand, our eberron is a high magic campaign, so is fine to have power seep from the kitchen sink yet there's no reason to center in dps and leave all other toon roles incomplete.
We have attack buffs but there's no defense buffs to match, and there's plenty of options in the books.
You can't count on armor alone but there's spells to cover up, starting with 'greater mage armor', yet on ddo we get nothing to boost AC that isn't restricted to a tank build.

But the problem isn't on broken mechanics, nor the solution is to revamp ac or tweak the whole d20, the thing is we play d&d as a mmo and that isn't right.
In a mmo the party is forced into the tank, dps, nuker, healer roles, and the game is to go out and kill things fast.
In d&d the party is fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric or equivalent and all have a wider array of abilities.
You are not supposed to have to make a tank to have decent ac, nor be forced to have a tank in the party.

We are kind of stuck with the mmo business, and most of the player suggestions keep feeding that monster.
Granted, ddo is been a mmo from the start, yet d&d has a lot of potential for an online game.
Unless we begin to shift slowly away of the mmo style the issues won't go away.

[Club'in]

... because I understand that any PnP build I liked and grew attached to is invalid in DDO.

I beg to differ, Sir! My gnome fighter/druid can totally kick ass in this game...oh, wait...nevermind.

[TigrisMorte]

Despite it not being your idea of fun. Min/Max definately dictates much of how the game is balanced at "end game". Can you imagine if the game were only geared to be a challenge to flavor builds... min/max players would obliterate content even more than they do now.

And that is why min/max is boring for me.
If all you care about is blowing through content then sure, just max out your khoppie Horc and go.
If not then play a character that needs needs to do more than auto attack run through most of the game.
Your fun is where you find it.

So, why whine because they are giving the min/max what they obviously want?

Oh, and they only obliterate the content that can be gorilla'd through.:p

[Bosco]

I am so superior I need not even attempt to help the troll thread. Carry on.

[Gramh]

But the problem isn't on broken mechanics, nor the solution is to revamp ac or tweak the whole d20, the thing is we play d&d as a mmo and that isn't right.
In a mmo the party is forced into the tank, dps, nuker, healer roles, and the game is to go out and kill things fast.
In d&d the party is fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric or equivalent and all have a wider array of abilities.
You are not supposed to have to make a tank to have decent ac, nor be forced to have a tank in the party.


That pretty much has summed up my gripe as of late. If I build a flavor toon, i either have to run with guildies, sit on the sidelines waiting for a party with low expectations, or get a party with 3 min/maxers with the bestest of gear and sit and wait for the quest to be over. I love d&d for the ability to go out with even a "gimped" group and still have some fun about it, rather than sitting playing the stats game.

Saddly this is what people want, they want the crowning achievement of having that superior to others dps, the 1000dmg crit firewalls, and the whole of the mmo mentality to be better than everyone else. this is extremely noticeable with the outrage of the nerfing down of the dark monks touch ability. forum page after forum page filled with more venom and hate than even the banning incident spawned all across the forum site. unfortunately i doubt we'll ever get to see a d&d world without this mentality, and that makes me even more sad.

[TigrisMorte]

I beg to differ, Sir! My gnome fighter/druid can totally kick ass in this game...oh, wait...nevermind.

I call shenanigans! You can't take fighter your not a HOrc, sirrah! Now go buff/heal the Khoppie HOrcs (KhOrcs, KhopOs, K'Orcs, Khors, KHorcs dps'œuvres ???) and be quiet 'til he needs more!:D

PS: I hereby proclaim "KHorcs dps'œuvres" as the official term for the Half Orc DPS min/max build of the month!

[fuzzy1guy]

It's stupid easy to sit at a 50 str... horc just made it worse.

50 cha? 50 int? Sure you can get to that. But you can't keep it there for very long.

50 dex? A little easier. but still. non epic geared you're better off being a str based halforc.

Overpowered horc and str just another good reason to pickup another game when i see one that looks good. it's just getting silly here. So much d&d variety is gone. And they don't seem to be ever going to fix it.

[IronClan]

Does anybody else read statements like these like this:

"I guess if you play with a bunch of people who are good at the game, that might be true. Being good at the game isn't my idea of fun, though."

Then I laugh to myself.

V

Is this something you feel the need to do on a regular basis? :p

The truth is that Min/Maxers position ultimately one that can be defined by relatively simple math... Once you reduce the game to optimal DPS (and turbine has certainly encouraged this mindset(*) your choices can be made with a calculator, once your choices are made for you by the calculator you're no longer playing much of a "game" or at least you're missing out on a large part of the variety and fun of the game inherited from the original P&P (which is trying builds and differing roles out).

(*) by discouraging multiclassing with pigeon holing PrE pre-requisites, capstones and making many aspects of the game cost far too much in oportunity cost, for example an armored SD Fighter or DoS Pali needs nearly every item slot and a shield, + almost every AP devoted to AC to reach at least effective AC levels (defined as getting missed around half the time, not unhittable). Monk splash Pajama AC builds need serious wisdom and dex commitments; thus besides very select builds, pure DPS is always a better choice.

All of this is kind of ignoring the fact that almost none of the game is hard enough to make pure min/maxing required by any stretch of the imagination.

[sephiroth1084]

It's stupid easy to sit at a 50 str... horc just made it worse.

50 cha? 50 int? Sure you can get to that. But you can't keep it there for very long.

50 dex? A little easier. but still. non epic geared you're better off being a str based halforc.

Overpowered horc and str just another good reason to pickup another game when i see one that looks good. it's just getting silly here. So much d&d variety is gone. And they don't seem to be ever going to fix it.
Well, as imbalancing as a ridiculous Str score can be, it pales in comparison to a similarly inflated casting stat in some ways, although there are other factors in play that limit the effectiveness of the casting stat as well.

Too much Int/Wis/Cha means that nothing will ever save versus your spells (barring 20s), which we have in some content already, and which trivializes it if those failed saves trivialize a monster. 48 Int doesn't quite do that for all content, though its close, but you usually need someone else with you to capitalize on those failed saves unless you're in content where insta-kill works. A 70 Str doesn't have quite the same effect on an Amrath quest as a DC 46 Wail of the Banshee does, so comparing the degree of one stat's inflation to that of another necessarily cannot be a direct comparison.

Similarly, Dex can't be directly contrasted with Str, since Dex adds to so many other stats. Whether AC is useful or not plays a role, but if we could get Dex as high as Str, it would likely be possible to get enough AC for all content without having to sacrifice much else by way of gear or stances (CE vs. PA) and would shift the balance even more away from armored characters. Then Dex contributes to relevant skills and Reflex saves as well, and can, in some cases, be used for DPS as well. Now, the usual balancing factors for things like Weapon Finesse have largely been eroded away as the game has shifted to emphasize DPS over most everything else, but they're still there for most content.

The fact that a barbarian, who can get more Str than anyone else, is not the top DPS build, and not even the highest to-hit build (assuming they're going for DPS and using PA) reveals just how little over-inflated Str impacts the game as a whole. Is it an issue? Of course, but it's not as dramatic a problem as a 70 Dex, or Int would be.

Which is the more useful? The 70 Str barbarian, or the (theoretical) 70 Dex Acrobat? Against anything that can be Sneak Attacked, the Acrobat, since it will easily have enough AC to avoid most attacks from nearly anything, and will have comparable damage (use a Staff of Nat Gan for Dex x2 to damage vs. the Str x1.5 anyone else would be using), and would easily have enough Reflex to never fail a save (except on a 1) and enough to make the Rogue bonus feat (can't recall the name) very successful and worth taking--if it works--AND enough Hide and Move Silently, even without ranks, to sneak through basically any stealth-friendly content.

The benefits of different high stats don't all scale the same way.

[sephiroth1084]

Is this something you feel the need to do on a regular basis? :p

The truth is that Min/Maxers position ultimately one that can be defined by relatively simple math... Once you reduce the game to optimal DPS (and turbine has certainly encouraged this mindset(*) your choices can be made with a calculator, once your choices are made for you by the calculator you're no longer playing much of a "game" or at least you're missing out on a large part of the variety and fun of the game inherited from the original P&P (which is trying builds and differing roles out).

(*) by discouraging multiclassing with pigeon holing PrE pre-requisites, capstones and making many aspects of the game cost far too much in oportunity cost, for example an armored SD Fighter or DoS Pali needs nearly every item slot and a shield, + almost every AP devoted to AC to reach at least effective AC levels (defined as getting missed around half the time, not unhittable). Monk splash Pajama AC builds need serious wisdom and dex commitments; thus besides very select builds, pure DPS is always a better choice.

All of this is kind of ignoring the fact that almost none of the game is hard enough to make pure min/maxing required by any stretch of the imagination.
I agree that the way prestige classes were implemented, as being class-specific effects with little cost, is a problem, and cuts way down on variety, but even with a min/max mindset and DPS calculations influencing decisions, we still have a fair variety in terms of character builds and roles. That DPS plays such a tremendous role in the endgame is certainly a problem from this perspective, and cuts down on the number of useful builds, but since, as you say, true min/maxing isn't needed for anything really, the impact of this isn't tremendous.

We certainly have more character variety than most other games. And many of the character types that have been weeded out likely wouldn't work in PnP either. I mean, PnP has the Mystic Theurge, which most people in the PnP realm will agree is a trap anyway. At least in DDO we don't have quite that tantalizing a trap suckering people into thinking that losing 3-5 caster levels is okay. And that's said even knowing that there are clerics and sorcerers who give up 3-4 caster levels and are still highly effective at their primary role, while branching out significantly into others.

The capstones are only a detriment to the game because of the PrEs have been implemented, and even then aren't a very big deal. They're mostly good enough to warrant going pure, but not so good that multiclassing is a mistake. And that enhances variety, because it means that splashing 2 fighter, rogue, monk, paladin or ranger is actually a real decision, instead of being a question of which to splash.

Still, one benefit of the PrE vs. PrC system is that the former is far more intuitive, being easier to work with and less likely to lead to a rather broken character--toons are unlikely to be total gimps just as much as they are unlikely to be totally overpowering--which is a real problem with the PrC system.

[Jonny_D]

Non min/max builds still obliterate content when good players are behind the keys. I was in an EChrono last week where not one fighter or barbarian was even in the group. How did we even compete without one of the "real" DPS classes there?

One of the biggest lies perpetuated on this forum is your toon has to be a full-****** max-DPS-at-the-expense-of-anything-else-ape to be competitive. It's simply not true.


Despite it not being your idea of fun. Min/Max definately dictates much of how the game is balanced at "end game". Can you imagine if the game were only geared to be a challenge to flavor builds... min/max players would obliterate content even more than they do now.

Notice how I said "much" not all. Everyone knows that one can moderately reduce DPS in order to broaden the utility of a character.

[Chai]

Well, as imbalancing as a ridiculous Str score can be, it pales in comparison to a similarly inflated casting stat in some ways, although there are other factors in play that limit the effectiveness of the casting stat as well.

Too much Int/Wis/Cha means that nothing will ever save versus your spells (barring 20s), which we have in some content already, and which trivializes it if those failed saves trivialize a monster. 48 Int doesn't quite do that for all content, though its close, but you usually need someone else with you to capitalize on those failed saves unless you're in content where insta-kill works. A 70 Str doesn't have quite the same effect on an Amrath quest as a DC 46 Wail of the Banshee does, so comparing the degree of one stat's inflation to that of another necessarily cannot be a direct comparison.

How much mana would a sorc have with 78 cha? How much does a paladin smite for with 78 cha?


Similarly, Dex can't be directly contrasted with Str, since Dex adds to so many other stats. Whether AC is useful or not plays a role, but if we could get Dex as high as Str, it would likely be possible to get enough AC for all content without having to sacrifice much else by way of gear or stances (CE vs. PA) and would shift the balance even more away from armored characters. Then Dex contributes to relevant skills and Reflex saves as well, and can, in some cases, be used for DPS as well. Now, the usual balancing factors for things like Weapon Finesse have largely been eroded away as the game has shifted to emphasize DPS over most everything else, but they're still there for most content.

How about a 78 int wizard with 2 levels of rogue and insightful reflexes?

How about a monk with a 50 in 4 stats.


The fact that a barbarian, who can get more Str than anyone else, is not the top DPS build, and not even the highest to-hit build (assuming they're going for DPS and using PA) reveals just how little over-inflated Str impacts the game as a whole. Is it an issue? Of course, but it's not as dramatic a problem as a 70 Dex, or Int would be.

Compared to what? The fighter who has slightly less str than the barbarian being higher DPS according to spreadsheet gamers, and only due to attack rate boosts?


Which is the more useful? The 70 Str barbarian, or the (theoretical) 70 Dex Acrobat? Against anything that can be Sneak Attacked, the Acrobat, since it will easily have enough AC to avoid most attacks from nearly anything, and will have comparable damage (use a Staff of Nat Gan for Dex x2 to damage vs. the Str x1.5 anyone else would be using), and would easily have enough Reflex to never fail a save (except on a 1) and enough to make the Rogue bonus feat (can't recall the name) very successful and worth taking--if it works--AND enough Hide and Move Silently, even without ranks, to sneak through basically any stealth-friendly content.

The benefits of different high stats don't all scale the same way.

This is only an issue because theres one weapon in the game that gives you a damage bonus for dex mod. The REAL sacrifice here would be tons of DPS otherwise, and it would be sacrificed for AC and reflex save. I call that a direct comparison. Use any other weapons and youre second rate DPS. What does this staff do to undead, constructs, and elementals? Are they tickelish?

The end result with dex mod to damage would be rogues brute force soloing content that barbarians already brute force solo. Meh. Its only fair.

[Jonny_D]

And that is why min/max is boring for me.
If all you care about is blowing through content then sure, just max out your khoppie Horc and go.
If not then play a character that needs needs to do more than auto attack run through most of the game.
Your fun is where you find it.

So, why whine because they are giving the min/max what they obviously want?

Oh, and they only obliterate the content that can be gorilla'd through.:p
min/max obliterate all content. I dont min/max all my toons but i most definately make them to be successful and able to contribute their share in any setting

[karnokvolrath]

I do somewhat agree with the OP, that said i still just keep playing WF. Im a gimp deal with it :).

All that really matters in this whole thread is.....can my sorc have a 76 cha? please? Ill buy it in the doo store if i have too ;)

[sephiroth1084]

How much mana would a sorc have with 78 cha?
About 30*19, or around 500 extra SP.

How much does a paladin smite for with 78 cha?The same as the 20 Cha paladin smites for.

How about a 78 int wizard with 2 levels of rogue and insightful reflexes?
I'm really not sure what these examples are trying to prove or say? My point was simply that saying a highly inflated Str is a huge problem because we can't do the same with other stats is a poor argument, because inflating other stats in the same way has farther-reaching consequences--that the impact of a high Str is less severe than the same degree of inflation applied to another (non-Con) stat.



Compared to what? The fighter who has slightly less str than the barbarian being higher DPS according to spreadsheet gamers, and only due to attack rate boosts? Uh...yeah. And rogues who aren't getting much DPS from Str, and paladins who aren't that far behind and who also aren't getting that much damage from Str (or any of their other stats), or... You've seen the DPS calcs, even if you choose to take issue with them; you've seen that, ultimately, the various DPS classes and combinations are all pretty **** close, despite the fact that the barbarian has 10-30 more Str than many of the others on the chart. We have many sources for DPS beyond Str.




This is only an issue because theres one weapon in the game that gives you a damage bonus for dex mod. The REAL sacrifice here would be tons of DPS otherwise, and it would be sacrificed for AC and reflex save. I call that a direct comparison. Use any other weapons and youre second rate DPS. What does this staff do to undead, constructs, and elementals? Are they tickelish?

The end result with dex mod to damage would be rogues brute force soloing content that barbarians already brute force solo. Meh. Its only fair.I used one weapon to simply illustrate how ridiculous a super-inflated Dex could be. Otherwise, the Acrobat ends up being close to even, just from stats, from adding Str x1.5 and Dex against SA-able targets. And that's before actual SA gets figured in.

How they function against SA-immune targets is irrelevant to this discussion. They'd be pitifully weak. We know that.

Uh...actually, a rogue who could get that kind of damage would have a much easier time than a barbarian, since they'd have enough AC to not get hit by almost anything, would never take AoE damage, have UMD for all sorts of buffs and healing the barbarian cannot easily get (and some is entirely beyond them), could bypass unnecessary troublesome encounters and could crush the big fights just as effectively.

This is partly true for Acrobats as it is, but would be much more true, if they could increase their Dex to the same levels that Str can be boosted. A 78 Dex vs. a 40 Dex (much higher than anyone is likely to have anyway) is an increase of 19 points of AC, damage (38 damage with Nat Gann, and 19 on off-hand attacks), Reflex, Hide, Move Silently, Balance, etc... That is not insignificant. An increase of 40 to 78 Str is 19 (or 28 two-handed; or 9 on off-hand attacks) damage, and +19 on checks to avoid getting knocked down. Those are significant increases, but nowhere near what the Dex increase is providing.

[Shade]

If they give shifters a nice big strength bonus, bigger then half orc.. But as a speical time limited duration only during there shift into another form.. They could be a race to compete with half orcs.

Oh and the offtopic reply:
Fixing armor class is easy:
Delete it.

Armor class in ddo was always a dumb concept.

AC in PnP means:
Monster swings at you, your character was fast/skilled/agile/strong enough to dodge or parry the blow with his weapon or shield.

Huge difference in DDO - YOU CONTROL THE CHARACTER. Not the dice.
Since we have no parry ability and block is useless as its too slow to activate, we are left with 1 way to implement AC with our own abilities (as we control the character in DDO, not the dice).. Dodge, Jump, Move around - use actual gaming SKILL with the WADS keys.

That system is implemented, it works great. Very skilled players have a high "armor class" and low skilled players have a poor "armor class" .. In the gaming sense anyways.

The fact turbine put in 2 ways to 100% avoid damage in the first place was the mistake, not the fact that the ONLY way to challlenge us at the higher lvls of skills/lvls is to disable the armor class system.

AC is a poor kludge system, and always will be beyond repair. Your joking yourself if you think otherwise. It works on paper but can never work in realtime.

It might work in turn based games where you cant otherwise dodge using your WASD keys like NWN.. But does not work in DDO. Having 2 ways to completel avoid damage is too easy and ultimately boring, thus why it works fine on casual mode, but not endgame/elite/epic. As Madfloyd says: No challenge, no fun.

If you want a stand still and mitigate damage game - go play WoW or one of its 1000 clones, this is DDO. If you want to mitgate damage - freaking move your character away from the attack! Get with the times, DDO is a fast paced active combat game, asking turbine to let you stand still and take no damage in actual challenging content is just wrong on so many levels its not funny.

[Postumus]

I guess if you play with a bunch of Min/Maxers, that might be true. Min/Maxing isnt my idea of fun, though.


Exactly right.

[Dark-Gulrak]

If they give shifters a nice big strength bonus, bigger then half orc.. But as a speical time limited duration only during there shift into another form.. They could be a race to compete with half orcs.

Oh and the offtopic reply:
Fixing armor class is easy:
Delete it.

Armor class in ddo was always a dumb concept.

AC in PnP means:
Monster swings at you, your character was fast/skilled/agile/strong enough to dodge or parry the blow with his weapon or shield.

Huge difference in DDO - YOU CONTROL THE CHARACTER. Not the dice.
Since we have no parry ability and block is useless as its too slow to activate, we are left with 1 way to implement AC with our own abilities (as we control the character in DDO, not the dice).. Dodge, Jump, Move around - use actual gaming SKILL with the WADS keys.

That system is implemented, it works great. Very skilled players have a high "armor class" and low skilled players have a poor "armor class" .. In the gaming sense anyways.

The fact turbine put in 2 ways to 100% avoid damage in the first place was the mistake, not the fact that the ONLY way to challlenge us at the higher lvls of skills/lvls is to disable the armor class system.

AC is a poor kludge system, and always will be beyond repair. Your joking yourself if you think otherwise. It works on paper but can never work in realtime.

It might work in turn based games where you cant otherwise dodge using your WASD keys like NWN.. But does not work in DDO. Having 2 ways to completel avoid damage is too easy and ultimately boring, thus why it works fine on casual mode, but not endgame/elite/epic. As Madfloyd says: No challenge, no fun.

If you want a stand still and mitigate damage game - go play WoW or one of its 1000 clones, this is DDO. If you want to mitgate damage - freaking move your character away from the attack! Get with the times, DDO is a fast paced active combat game, asking turbine to let you stand still and take no damage in actual challenging content is just wrong on so many levels its not funny.

Wow THIS and so much this! ^^

Makes such slap-on-the-face sense :eek:

[Postumus]

Does anybody else read statements like these like this:

"I guess if you play with a bunch of people who are good at the game, that might be true. Being good at the game isn't my idea of fun, though."

Then I laugh to myself.

V

Well I laughed at your statement implying people who min/max = people 'who are good at the game.'


Just because a player is capable of boosting two stats, doesn't mean he can run in a straight line.

[sephiroth1084]

If they give shifters a nice big strength bonus, bigger then half orc.. But as a speical time limited duration only during there shift into another form.. They could be a race to compete with half orcs.

Oh and the offtopic reply:
Fixing armor class is easy:
Delete it.

Armor class in ddo was always a dumb concept.

AC in PnP means:
Monster swings at you, your character was fast/skilled/agile/strong enough to dodge or parry the blow with his weapon or shield.

Huge difference in DDO - YOU CONTROL THE CHARACTER. Not the dice.
Since we have no parry ability and block is useless as its too slow to activate, we are left with 1 way to implement AC with our own abilities (as we control the character in DDO, not the dice).. Dodge, Jump, Move around - use actual gaming SKILL with the WADS keys.

That system is implemented, it works great. Very skilled players have a high "armor class" and low skilled players have a poor "armor class" .. In the gaming sense anyways.

The fact turbine put in 2 ways to 100% avoid damage in the first place was the mistake, not the fact that the ONLY way to challlenge us at the higher lvls of skills/lvls is to disable the armor class system.

AC is a poor kludge system, and always will be beyond repair. Your joking yourself if you think otherwise. It works on paper but can never work in realtime.

It might work in turn based games where you cant otherwise dodge using your WASD keys like NWN.. But does not work in DDO. Having 2 ways to completel avoid damage is too easy and ultimately boring, thus why it works fine on casual mode, but not endgame/elite/epic. As Madfloyd says: No challenge, no fun.

If you want a stand still and mitigate damage game - go play WoW or one of its 1000 clones, this is DDO. If you want to mitgate damage - freaking move your character away from the attack! Get with the times, DDO is a fast paced active combat game, asking turbine to let you stand still and take no damage in actual challenging content is just wrong on so many levels its not funny.
If this weren't an MMO, I might agree, but there has to be some consideration for the fact that the game is aimed at getting a wide variety of people to play this game for many, many hours. Part of the reason WoW is so popular is that any idiot can play the thing.

While I don't feel that DDO should stoop to quite that degree of accessibility, being able to satisfy people who don't want to spend hundreds of hours jumping around with absolute precision is important. Having different systems in play that target different audiences within the game is a good thing: movement for those who enjoy a very fast-paced, intense game; AC for those who prefer a slower pace, but more loot dedication, as examples.

Maintaining some faith to P&P is also important.

There is a ton of stuff you cannot avoid by moving in DDO, even if you are perfect.

Much of the stuff you can avoid by moving is kind of stupid (such as running backwards and swinging a greataxe).

We actually have more than 2 systems of avoidance: AC, tactical movement, miss chance (Blur, Displacement, Shadow Fade, etc...), DR (in the early game mostly).

Improving the reaction time on shield blocking and tumbling would be a much better idea than ditching AC, and would flesh out the game better.

Moving to avoid attacks doesn't work well in a lot of situations, such as when fighting a raid boss, where heals are supposed to be hitting several people at once, though emphasizing movement would correspond to a much needed weakening of healing in general--the problem here, however, is that it simply places a greater burden on healers.

[AZgreentea]

Despite it not being your idea of fun. Min/Max definately dictates much of how the game is balanced at "end game". Can you imagine if the game were only geared to be a challenge to flavor builds... min/max players would obliterate content even more than they do now.
True, however, Min/Maxers will always find that one element and try to... well max it. I dont know if everyone can remember that far back, but a long, long time ago everyone claimed that WF was the OP race and should be scaled back a bit. Oh Woe! my poor fleshie cant get into groups because everyone plays a WF barb! ;)

When they introduce the next great thing, everyone will forget that the Horc ever needed nerfing.

[IronClan]

If this weren't an MMO, I might agree, but there has to be some consideration for the fact that the game is aimed at getting a wide variety of people to play this game for many, many hours. Part of the reason WoW is so popular is that any idiot can play the thing.

While I don't feel that DDO should stoop to quite that degree of accessibility, being able to satisfy people who don't want to spend hundreds of hours jumping around with absolute precision is important. Having different systems in play that target different audiences within the game is a good thing: movement for those who enjoy a very fast-paced, intense game; AC for those who prefer a slower pace, but more loot dedication, as examples.

Maintaining some faith to P&P is also important.

There is a ton of stuff you cannot avoid by moving in DDO, even if you are perfect.

Much of the stuff you can avoid by moving is kind of stupid (such as running backwards and swinging a greataxe).

We actually have more than 2 systems of avoidance: AC, tactical movement, miss chance (Blur, Displacement, Shadow Fade, etc...), DR (in the early game mostly).

Improving the reaction time on shield blocking and tumbling would be a much better idea than ditching AC, and would flesh out the game better.

Moving to avoid attacks doesn't work well in a lot of situations, such as when fighting a raid boss, where heals are supposed to be hitting several people at once, though emphasizing movement would correspond to a much needed weakening of healing in general--the problem here, however, is that it simply places a greater burden on healers.

^this

[grodon9999]

If they give shifters a nice big strength bonus, bigger then half orc.. But as a speical time limited duration only during there shift into another form.. They could be a race to compete with half orcs.

Oh and the offtopic reply:
Fixing armor class is easy:
Delete it.

Armor class in ddo was always a dumb concept.

AC in PnP means:
Monster swings at you, your character was fast/skilled/agile/strong enough to dodge or parry the blow with his weapon or shield.

Huge difference in DDO - YOU CONTROL THE CHARACTER. Not the dice.
Since we have no parry ability and block is useless as its too slow to activate, we are left with 1 way to implement AC with our own abilities (as we control the character in DDO, not the dice).. Dodge, Jump, Move around - use actual gaming SKILL with the WADS keys.

That system is implemented, it works great. Very skilled players have a high "armor class" and low skilled players have a poor "armor class" .. In the gaming sense anyways.

The fact turbine put in 2 ways to 100% avoid damage in the first place was the mistake, not the fact that the ONLY way to challlenge us at the higher lvls of skills/lvls is to disable the armor class system.

AC is a poor kludge system, and always will be beyond repair. Your joking yourself if you think otherwise. It works on paper but can never work in realtime.

It might work in turn based games where you cant otherwise dodge using your WASD keys like NWN.. But does not work in DDO. Having 2 ways to completel avoid damage is too easy and ultimately boring, thus why it works fine on casual mode, but not endgame/elite/epic. As Madfloyd says: No challenge, no fun.

If you want a stand still and mitigate damage game - go play WoW or one of its 1000 clones, this is DDO. If you want to mitgate damage - freaking move your character away from the attack! Get with the times, DDO is a fast paced active combat game, asking turbine to let you stand still and take no damage in actual challenging content is just wrong on so many levels its not funny.

This only works if you're running backwards with a TH weapon and there's no lag. You can't tumble under a swing, blocking is too slow, etc. I loved that way this kinda stuff worked back in a game like Jedi Outcast where is was almost all skill. Here? With this laggy setup?

In Shroud I've been "hit" by a target that was at least 30 feet away from me when it swang.

Maybe a toons DEX score should affect how fast it responds when you hit the WASD keys.

[Khanyth]

I don't understand the "broken" part? Overpowered, maybe.

I have always viewed half-orcs as WAI until the plan to get a new race(s) in 2 or 3 updates. Then they might nerf HO.... but really, yes I see a lot of HOrcs running around, but I still see a lot of dwarfs and WF........

People who want to go balls out on a game aspect will choose the feats, skills, AP, and most importantly, race that will allow them to do so. This isn't a bad thing... it just is what it is. People will play how they want to play. Me: I don't want to be a robot, and I kill orcs, so I stay dwarf. Regardless of stats or enhancements or whatever. No one should begrudge my choice, no more than anyone should begrudge the choice of others who choose to min-max/optimize/uberpimp-out/whatever-you-want-to-call-it..... anyone else.

It is what it is.... and it will just be left alone.

It isn't broken.... it's WAI

[grodon9999]

I don't understand the "broken" part? Overpowered, maybe.

I have always viewed half-orcs as WAI until the plan to get a new race(s) in 2 or 3 updates. Then they might nerf HO.... but really, yes I see a lot of HOrcs running around, but I still see a lot of dwarfs and WF........

People who want to go balls out on a game aspect will choose the feats, skills, AP, and most importantly, race that will allow them to do so. This isn't a bad thing... it just is what it is. People will play how they want to play. Me: I don't want to be a robot, and I kill orcs, so I stay dwarf. Regardless of stats or enhancements or whatever. No one should begrudge my choice, no more than anyone should begrudge the choice of others who choose to min-max/optimize/uberpimp-out/whatever-you-want-to-call-it..... anyone else.

It is what it is.... and it will just be left alone.

It isn't broken.... it's WAI

The OP's point is that the end-game of DDO is really stupid and H-Orcs just compound this stupidity. Turbine apparently agrees hence the up-coming epic-reboot. Nobody knows if that'll make things better of worse.

[Chette]

We did have a pally or two but it was mostly rangers and monks with a ranger tanking the BFD at the end.

But we're getting off topic. The OP's points are valid, variety's the spice of life and it'd be nice if DDO end-game were de-stupided so more builds were viable.

FWIW we almost always have a monk tank the end boss. Improved evasion for the red dragon breath and healing amp for either scrolls or FvS free cure light wounds are far more useful than a few extra hitpoints from a min-max barb. So I agree with you completely, there are many examples of where flexibility and survivability come in to play instead of pure raw power.

[Khanyth]

The OP's point is that the end-game of DDO is really stupid and H-Orcs just compound this stupidity. Turbine apparently agrees hence the up-coming epic-reboot. Nobody knows if that'll make things better of worse.

Gotcha... thanks.

I still think that it's an epic problem and not a HOrc problem though... my opinion

[grodon9999]

Gotcha... thanks.

I still think that it's an epic problem and not a HOrc problem though... my opinion

Oh I agree with you, I love H-orcs. I think they look great and a lot of great players/toons I role with have them.

The issue that since epic is so one-dimensional what they bring to the table is so much more valuable than what anyone else can bring, variety is great.

[t0r012]

there are some serious flaws in the arguments here.Most of it goes to a single under lying misunderstanding of the mechanics.

Half orcs are not over powered because they can reach 99 bajillion str. Nor is AC broken because it requires way too much gear to be effective. Other races are not weak simply because their racial weapons only get +2 hit/dmg.

Everyone seems to focus to much on minutia.

Why are these things broken? because the core mechanics of this game were developed and balanced for the game originally when the cap was level 10.

Notice how it is reasonable to get a decent AC even with heavy armor at level 10? cause that is what the core game mechanics were designed for.

How about racial weapon mods? don't think +2 hit/damage is all that good anymore? your are right because when it was implemented people would grind for days and weeks to get a plain jane +5 to hit the blackguards in tempest spine and +2 hit/damage was a large bonus.

Why is it that AC has gone the way of the Dodo while HP and damage are all that people go for? healing. When a healer couldn't throw big mass heal every few seconds on all the melee clustered around the boss you needed to try and get missed.


Just about everything mentioned previously in this thread extends from the fact that the core mechanics were balanced for level 10 play and haven't been updated accordingly , or worse were crudely slapped together as the level extensions were added.
Half orcs seem and are strong because they were more balanced for todays level of play in todays environment rather than that of years ago. For the same reason Elves are the whooping boys of todays game and most would rather see them go die in a fire than play them. When getting +2 dex could help mitigate damage with AC and to some extent reflex save -2 con doesn't hurt near as much. Today AC is meaning less and you just need to make sure you have enough hit points to survive between mass heals which makes con so much more important.

Has Str gotten over the top? yes it has gotten crazy. But that has been more a product of what people wanted as the system evolved(or even devolved) since the game left the 10 cap. when more want str/damage/hitpoints that is what the creators make to keep people happy and playing.

==========================

now does any of this change that halforcs are the strongest melee option in the vast majority of cases? no.
does that make AC any more useful? no.
I'm not arguing that things aren't broken, I just wanted to point out the misconceptions I see all over the place as to why there are such problems in the game.
and it all comes down to the core game was balanced for level 10 and combined with the band-aid mechanics applied since then that are the cause of the issues now.

[Khanyth]

<SNIP> and it all comes down to the core game was balanced for level 10 and combined with the band-aid mechanics applied since then that are the cause of the issues now.

What you say makes sense.

So: in your opinion, is all that is needed for the epic reboot is to change that number to 20, and have it scale that way?

[grodon9999]

<SNIP out a whole bunch of good and right stuff>

But that has been more a product of what people wanted as the system evolved(or even devolved) since the game left the 10 cap. when more want str/damage/hitpoints that is what the creators make to keep people happy and playing. . . .

Clearly this isn't what all the players want. Only 5% or so even running epics and there is a new thread about this stuff everyday.

[TigrisMorte]

min/max obliterate all content. I dont min/max all my toons but i most definately make them to be successful and able to contribute their share in any setting

So what is their fix for the "not their primary stat" runes? Oh, sure someone else can open it for them. But that is hardly them obliterating content is it?
And how do you min/max a puzzle? Ah you look it up on DDOwiki or use a solver. Well that also is hardly obliterating content with your min/max. That again is using someone else's work and claiming you did something.

I stand by my statement Min/Max, by intent, only obliterate the knuckle drag, "point and click". Now, I am not saying that most of the game is not mostly able to be brain dead point click repeated. But that is the choice of the player, not the design of the game.

If you enjoy that then go min/max. But don't expect any real respect for your abilities as they are as imaginary as those of the guy who plays the game as an RP, or the guy who is making their way through the first time and knows nothing about the quest.
Most of the quests are amazingly easy with foreknowledge and certainly do not require min/max.

DnD always had the groups whose DM handed them anything they wanted and the players strutted about all Ubermax.
I've known lots of players that thought a level one with a +5 sword was great.
DDO is just easier to "monty haul" for your self.

If you enjoy it great. If you don't, do it differently.

Just don't think that there is only one way.
Nor if your only really in danger of loosing a quest if everyone rolls a 1 at the same time actually is required.

I guess what I am trying to say is, "have fun, but there is no need to wee into anyone else's cornflakes."

[t0r012]

What you say makes sense.

So: in your opinion, is all that is needed for the epic reboot is to change that number to 20, and have it scale that way?

honestly , there is no way to "fix" it. not without a complete reboot of the entire game.
Some of the major problems can be directly attributed to the very limited nature of the d20 system. it just doesn't scale well.
yet even if you completely ditched the d20 system, you would have to ditch every piece of gear and every bonus in the game and start fresh and balance everything to the new mechanics.

Even with a complete reboot of the game I'm not sure d20 could handle 1-20 much less 1-20+epics.

all in all I have no idea how to fix the game as is short of just spooning more gear and bonuses that bring other playstyles to at least near the level of the HP/Damage focus there is now. when you don't have to give up just about every equipment slot for AC when damage is so much more highly prized doesn't even really do it. Giving up any slots to AC now is almost silly since you can add more damage in just about any gear slot in its place and be more relevant.
=================

I did see something earlier about " we don't want to make it any more difficult for healers" that i disagree with. it being so easy for healers is part of what makes the HP/damage focus such an easy choice. if it were harder for healers you would see a lot more people thinking AC might not be such a bad choice. If healers had it harder and more people die as a result defense would be more highly prized. back to the old "you deal no DPS when dead". Would help the glass cannon syndrome we have now. sure you would still have full on ****** barbarians but the only thing that would keep them up is the fact that the healer would be able to focus on them rather than the other 5 or 11 people who didn't sacrifice every single ounce of survivability for more damage as is the way of it currently.

[Ganolyn]

Though you don't HAVE to min-max to be good at the game I don't see how being worse than you could be is fun? I mean yeah sure flavor builds and all but still...



The content is not up to the task at hand. The fact that anyone can solo any quest at all proves that. Full blast isn't really necessary except in some extreme situations, so being "worse than you can be" is actually more fun because the game does not become a bore-fest that you wipe your feet on a few hours a day in order to get some more junk you don't actually need, but to each his own.

[grodon9999]

honestly , there is no way to "fix" it. not without a complete reboot of the entire game.
Some of the major problems can be directly attributed to the very limited nature of the d20 system. it just doesn't scale well.
yet even if you completely ditched the d20 system, you would have to ditch every piece of gear and every bonus in the game and start fresh and balance everything to the new mechanics.

Even with a complete reboot of the game I'm not sure d20 could handle 1-20 much less 1-20+epics.


A simple, easy way to expand the useful range while maintaining a D20.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=298546

[Khanyth]

honestly , there is no way to "fix" it. not without a complete reboot of the entire game.
Some of the major problems can be directly attributed to the very limited nature of the d20 system. it just doesn't scale well.
yet even if you completely ditched the d20 system, you would have to ditch every piece of gear and every bonus in the game and start fresh and balance everything to the new mechanics.

Even with a complete reboot of the game I'm not sure d20 could handle 1-20 much less 1-20+epics.

all in all I have no idea how to fix the game as is short of just spooning more gear and bonuses that bring other playstyles to at least near the level of the HP/Damage focus there is now. when you don't have to give up just about every equipment slot for AC when damage is so much more highly prized doesn't even really do it. Giving up any slots to AC now is almost silly since you can add more damage in just about any gear slot in its place and be more relevant.
=================

I did see something earlier about " we don't want to make it any more difficult for healers" that i disagree with. it being so easy for healers is part of what makes the HP/damage focus such an easy choice. if it were harder for healers you would see a lot more people thinking AC might not be such a bad choice. If healers had it harder and more people die as a result defense would be more highly prized. back to the old "you deal no DPS when dead". Would help the glass cannon syndrome we have now. sure you would still have full on ****** barbarians but the only thing that would keep them up is the fact that the healer would be able to focus on them rather than the other 5 or 11 people who didn't sacrifice every single ounce of survivability for more damage as is the way of it currently.


Now you lost me.

If, as you say, the game is designed to "work" on a 1-10 scale. why can't you keep the same ratio and make it work from 1 to 20? Just continue it up on the scale?

[grodon9999]

Now you lost me.

If, as you say, the game is designed to "work" on a 1-10 scale. why can't you keep the same ratio and make it work from 1 to 20? Just continue it up on the scale?

You can, it's a cop out.

[t0r012]

Now you lost me.

If, as you say, the game is designed to "work" on a 1-10 scale. why can't you keep the same ratio and make it work from 1 to 20? Just continue it up on the scale?

think of it this way like building a truck that is made to haul 1ton (ddo level 10)
now you find out you need to carry 2 tons (ddo level 20)

how do you do that ? you need to make the body stronger to carry the extra ton, then you need to make the suspension stronger to carry the extra weight of the body plus an extra ton. then you need to get stronger wheels and breaks all of which are bigger and weigh more. and you need a bigger bed to carry the bigger load. now that you have added all this you need a bigger engine to be able to move the truck plus 1 ton plus all the extra weight you added upgrading the truck. Then you need a bigger gas tank to fuel that engine.

see everything need to be changed and it won't work as well and will cost more than if you just bought a 2 ton truck to start with.

once you get past what the game was designed for there isn't "scaling" it is all completely new or totally changed stuff strapped to it.

you can't scale that which wasn't designed to be scaled from the start.

or this when you buy a motherboard for a new PC build if you spend extra money now and get something with 2 graphics cards slots but only decide you need 1 GPU now you have the option of later adding another GPU, when you do that is scaling. If you only buy a board with 1 GPU slot you don't have the option to scale later.

if you build a game on a d20 system and balance to level 10 with that D20, when you get past level 10 you can bodge stuff in to band-aid it for a while but it will break down eventually.

[Der_Incubo]

think of it this way like building a truck that is made to haul 1ton (ddo level 10)
now you find out you need to carry 2 tons (ddo level 20)

how do you do that ? you need to make the body stronger to carry the extra ton, then you need to make the suspension stronger to carry the extra weight of the body plus an extra ton. then you need to get stronger wheels and breaks all of which are bigger and weigh more. and you need a bigger bed to carry the bigger load. now that you have added all this you need a bigger engine to be able to move the truck plus 1 ton plus all the extra weight you added upgrading the truck. Then you need a bigger gas tank to fuel that engine.

see everything need to be changed and it won't work as well and will cost more than if you just bought a 2 ton truck to start with.

once you get past what the game was designed for there isn't "scaling" it is all completely new or totally changed stuff strapped to it.

you can't scale that which wasn't designed to be scaled from the start.

or this when you buy a motherboard for a new PC build if you spend extra money now and get something with 2 graphics cards slots but only decide you need 1 GPU now you have the option of later adding another GPU, when you do that is scaling. If you only buy a board with 1 GPU slot you don't have the option to scale later.

if you build a game on a d20 system and balance to level 10 with that D20, when you get past level 10 you can bodge stuff in to band-aid it for a while but it will break down eventually.

You sir, make entirely too much sense. I am afraid I am going to have to ask you to leave the internets and take your logic with you.

[t0r012]

A simple, easy way to expand the useful range while maintaining a D20.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=298546

thats seems o.k. for AC on the surface. I haven't looked at it in detail considering all the situations to see if it does work.

like I need to look at how that would be for a level 1-10 toon rather than just capped.

does it "fix" endgame AC on the surface? yes it appears to but does it fix the underlying issue as to why AC is completely disregarded or just make even disregarded ACs viable when they shouldn't be and freely give some measure of defense to glass cannons who by all rights shouldn't get it?

I'll try and take a look later and run a few scenarios and try and add to the discussion in your thread.

[sephiroth1084]

Now you lost me.

If, as you say, the game is designed to "work" on a 1-10 scale. why can't you keep the same ratio and make it work from 1 to 20? Just continue it up on the scale?


thats seems o.k. for AC on the surface. I haven't looked at it in detail considering all the situations to see if it does work.

like I need to look at how that would be for a level 1-10 toon rather than just capped.

does it "fix" endgame AC on the surface? yes it appears to but does it fix the underlying issue as to why AC is completely disregarded or just make even disregarded ACs viable when they shouldn't be and freely give some measure of defense to glass cannons who by all rights shouldn't get it?

I'll try and take a look later and run a few scenarios and try and add to the discussion in your thread.
I thought gord had a decent idea there, but I stick by my suggestion (presented in that thread and elsewhere) of rolling for AC (instead of taking 10) and giving monsters iterative attack penalties. That seems like it would work across all levels pretty well, and expands the range of effective ACs more, while promoting a little more of Axer's dodgy gameplay.

[Khanyth]

think of it this way like building a truck that is made to haul 1ton (ddo level 10)
now you find out you need to carry 2 tons (ddo level 20)

how do you do that ? you need to make the body stronger to carry the extra ton, then you need to make the suspension stronger to carry the extra weight of the body plus an extra ton. then you need to get stronger wheels and breaks all of which are bigger and weigh more. and you need a bigger bed to carry the bigger load. now that you have added all this you need a bigger engine to be able to move the truck plus 1 ton plus all the extra weight you added upgrading the truck. Then you need a bigger gas tank to fuel that engine.

see everything need to be changed and it won't work as well and will cost more than if you just bought a 2 ton truck to start with.

once you get past what the game was designed for there isn't "scaling" it is all completely new or totally changed stuff strapped to it.

you can't scale that which wasn't designed to be scaled from the start.

or this when you buy a motherboard for a new PC build if you spend extra money now and get something with 2 graphics cards slots but only decide you need 1 GPU now you have the option of later adding another GPU, when you do that is scaling. If you only buy a board with 1 GPU slot you don't have the option to scale later.

if you build a game on a d20 system and balance to level 10 with that D20, when you get past level 10 you can bodge stuff in to band-aid it for a while but it will break down eventually.


So just in Jaws.... you get a bigger boat. And Turbine did.

I find it hard to believe that with all the million(s) of new players that ftp brought... that with the server upgrade a while back.... that this is a hardware issue. Sorry.... but I don't believe that Turbine is using the same computers and servers since they went FTP and... what.... 10-tuppled their player base.

You use the inherrent scale as the old system did (from 1 to 10) and continue upwards to 20.

[sephiroth1084]

You use the inherrent scale as the old system did (from 1 to 10) and continue upwards to 20.
It's not a linear progression.

[Dartwick]

If they give shifters a nice big strength bonus, bigger then half orc.. But as a speical time limited duration only during there shift into another form.. They could be a race to compete with half orcs.

Oh and the offtopic reply:
Fixing armor class is easy:
Delete it.

Armor class in ddo was always a dumb concept.

AC in PnP means:
Monster swings at you, your character was fast/skilled/agile/strong enough to dodge or parry the blow with his weapon or shield.

Huge difference in DDO - YOU CONTROL THE CHARACTER. Not the dice.
Since we have no parry ability and block is useless as its too slow to activate, we are left with 1 way to implement AC with our own abilities (as we control the character in DDO, not the dice).. Dodge, Jump, Move around - use actual gaming SKILL with the WADS keys.

That system is implemented, it works great. Very skilled players have a high "armor class" and low skilled players have a poor "armor class" .. In the gaming sense anyways.

The fact turbine put in 2 ways to 100% avoid damage in the first place was the mistake, not the fact that the ONLY way to challlenge us at the higher lvls of skills/lvls is to disable the armor class system.

AC is a poor kludge system, and always will be beyond repair. Your joking yourself if you think otherwise. It works on paper but can never work in realtime.

It might work in turn based games where you cant otherwise dodge using your WASD keys like NWN.. But does not work in DDO. Having 2 ways to completel avoid damage is too easy and ultimately boring, thus why it works fine on casual mode, but not endgame/elite/epic. As Madfloyd says: No challenge, no fun.

If you want a stand still and mitigate damage game - go play WoW or one of its 1000 clones, this is DDO. If you want to mitgate damage - freaking move your character away from the attack! Get with the times, DDO is a fast paced active combat game, asking turbine to let you stand still and take no damage in actual challenging content is just wrong on so many levels its not funny.

Actually this goes back to another reason why high strength always wins.
Moving to avoid damage screws the attack rating of medium strength charatcers.

If your chance to hit was not based on stats you would have a point.

You play high strength characters and you think every buld that isnt high strength should be a waste of time.

Using your logic strength based builds that have a better chance to hit should be considered "just wrong."

[Hadrian]

Moving to avoid damage screws the attack rating of medium strength charatcers.

Hey, there is always weapon finesse! Now you don't need strength to have a high to-hit. There. I have fixed DDO.

[Chai]

If they give shifters a nice big strength bonus, bigger then half orc.. But as a speical time limited duration only during there shift into another form.. They could be a race to compete with half orcs.

This would fail, miserably, and is already why druids arent in the game. The minute the best combinations of building with what we already have + any type of shape shifting are found, we will have taken another step in the power creep.


Oh and the offtopic reply:
Fixing armor class is easy:
Delete it..

Fail. You will see why I believe thus by reading the rest.


Armor class in ddo was always a dumb concept. .

AC in DDO worked until epic came along and messed it up. Since min maxers build for epic and devil bosses, if they build for Ac it works against the bosses but not in epics. The fact that a loin cloth wearing otherwise butt naked ogre can have a + 95 to hit and be immune to 3/4 of everything you can toss at it is the dumb concept here, not AC.


AC in PnP means:
Monster swings at you, your character was fast/skilled/agile/strong enough to dodge or parry the blow with his weapon or shield. .

This is incomplete. Let me complete it for you. AC in PNP means your characte was fast/skilled/agile/strong enough to dodge or parry the blow -OR- they were wearing enchanted armor/shield/rings/bracers/had cover/were in stance/were specially trained to fight this mob/etc....I could go on forever.


Huge difference in DDO - YOU CONTROL THE CHARACTER. Not the dice..

In PNP I control the character too, and I can move them how I see fit to keep them out of harms way. Real time -VS- turn based doesnt = not being able to play your character in such a way that it covers up a weak AC by moving in such a fashion that you dont expose yourself to attacks. You can do so in both.


Since we have no parry ability and block is useless as its too slow to activate, we are left with 1 way to implement AC with our own abilities (as we control the character in DDO, not the dice).. Dodge, Jump, Move around - use actual gaming SKILL with the WADS keys...

I watched an intimitank (yes, a timmeh!!! you know those "useless" tanks the DPS crowd makes fun of?) stack sully right behind horoth and tank em both in TOD elite in 2 separate runs. No mana pots were ever used to bolster either of the healer's mana pools.

I do agree that DDO is as much a DOOM or QUAKE clone as it is a stat based game, but saying AC stats are useless is incorrect. When I see some dude hide behind his shield up against a wall (cant really move there) and tank 2 bosses that would wipe out anyone else there in a matter of seconds, I cant agree that AC is useless. Broken yes, useless no.


That system is implemented, it works great. Very skilled players have a high "armor class" and low skilled players have a poor "armor class" .. In the gaming sense anyways. .

This works under the conditions where you can move during combat. Those conditions dont always exist.


The fact turbine put in 2 ways to 100% avoid damage in the first place was the mistake, not the fact that the ONLY way to challlenge us at the higher lvls of skills/lvls is to disable the armor class system..

No. The fact that Turbine introduced a MMO tier level style power creep into a game based on D&D was the mistake. We all agree that building a toon to ALWAYS hit is a great concept. Why would we think otherwise about building a toon that is ALWAYS missed? (save for ye ald house rules regarding nat1s and nat20s of course)

Its not a mistake for a min maxer to build for "no fail" when it comes to DPS, but its a mistake to build for "no fail" when it comes to AC?


AC is a poor kludge system, and always will be beyond repair. Your joking yourself if you think otherwise. It works on paper but can never work in realtime...

I made it work in realtime, on my NWN server I had up for almost 5 years. You just cant have people running around with 80 str and +10 weapons. It cant work in DDO because we are well beyond the window of time it could have been fixed in, which is right after the vale came out.


It might work in turn based games where you cant otherwise dodge using your WASD keys like NWN.. But does not work in DDO. Having 2 ways to completel avoid damage is too easy and ultimately boring, thus why it works fine on casual mode, but not endgame/elite/epic. As Madfloyd says: No challenge, no fun.

In NWN we could dodge using the WASD keys with a high enough tumble skill. (NWN had threat ranges and attacks of opportunity). We could also shadowdance - attack, hide, attack, hide, repeat. However....the mobs had the same attack rate you do. You didnt stand next to mobs and deliver 2000 points of damage in the same time they delivered 250 like you do in DDO. The mobs also cast the same spells at the same power level. If your caster can crit with a polar ray for 2k, so can the mob casters.


If you want a stand still and mitigate damage game - go play WoW or one of its 1000 clones, this is DDO. If you want to mitgate damage - freaking move your character away from the attack! Get with the times, DDO is a fast paced active combat game, asking turbine to let you stand still and take no damage in actual challenging content is just wrong on so many levels its not funny.

What about asking Turbine to stand still and deliver damage and never miss on a swing with a nat 2 or higher? If you think having AC where you rarely get hit is wrong, how about telling me what the difference is between that, and building to have "no fail" in any other dice roll based skill or stat.

Eliminating AC brings DDO closer to WOW, not further away from it. WOW is a % miss chance, and the rest of all attacks hit. /barf

[Mudcnd]

Don't worry OP. The next race Turbine puts out is bound to be better then horcs...

Ding ding ding

[Tom318]

One of the biggest lies perpetuated on this forum is your toon has to be a full-****** max-DPS-at-the-expense-of-anything-else-ape to be competitive. It's simply not true.

Prove it :)

[Zorth]

A Warforge Barbarian or fighter is cutting edge I think. The heals they can get from a caster outweigh Half-orc dps because they will survive every time if a caster is willing to heal them. It would be a joint effort with the caster using most of his or her spell points on healing the Warforge. Especially if its a Sorc.
In theory,workable, but may not happen. It would have to be a team effort.

The only draw back would be curse on the WF, but guild vendor remove curse pots can be used while raged.

I used to see VOD asking for Warforge melee to tank the boss about 2 years ago, but I don't see that anymore. There was a reason back then, but now it is not asked for. We used to wait for a WF barbarian or fighter until we started.

Just my thoughts, thanks.

[notforyou]

For a combination of reasons the best race for every melee class is Half Orc(once you get past lvl 14 or so). So if you want to help youre group the most you either play a caster type or a half orc.

Reasons why this exists.

1 AC is useless in the end game.
You simply cant have high enough AC to matter unless you totally gimp your character in all other ways. Im not talking being unhittable , I just mean useful AC.
So all stats and enhancements that help AC really dont matter.

2 Finesse is useless in the end game.
Nearly all damaging abilities of weapon either dont work or dont matter(stat damage, vorpal etc.)

3 DR is too low to matter relative to monster damage.

4 Half Orcs are great at the only 2 thing that matters now that Turbine removed most of the nuance from D&D - being strong getting damage bonuses.


Either fix the game(hard to do I suppose) or nerf Half Orcs(easy) - this is getting stupid as is.

some1 obviously doesn't know how to play a good tank at endgame. epics r a bit different when everything is about DPS but besides epics a well built tank can be a huge boon to any party. please play the game for more than 2 days
before u start ranting about things u have no clue about

[Blank_Zero]

You got a bard with over 80 str right?

Working on it :)

[Blank_Zero]

I used to see VOD asking for Warforge melee to tank the boss about 2 years ago, but I don't see that anymore. There was a reason back then, but now it is not asked for. We used to wait for a WF barbarian or fighter until we started.

Just my thoughts, thanks.

This still happens in less experience Pugs a lot actually. Some groups still feel better in ToD with using a WF Tank on Sulo.

[adamkatt]

Drow Elf online?
Monk online?

I guess it started again!

[Dandonk]

The good ol' days of Dwarves and Drow Online.

[rodallec]

half elf with rogue dilly > horc in some cases.
until horc str bonus is 12~ (24str) higher than the helfs :)

[dingal]

But we're getting off topic. The OP's points are valid, variety's the spice of life and it'd be nice if DDO end-game were de-stupided so more builds were viable.

Now you've gone and done it, they may have actually added even more stupid.

[Gremmlynn]

qft. Regardless of whether you want it to or not, min-maxing is going to be where things are balanced on, which in turn makes flavor choices even more suboptimal. Balance is a win for everyone, developers and those of us that prefer variety especially.The thing is, the dev's should be balancing min/max around the game. Not the game around min/max.

[sigtrent]

Despite it not being your idea of fun. Min/Max definately dictates much of how the game is balanced at "end game". Can you imagine if the game were only geared to be a challenge to flavor builds... min/max players would obliterate content even more than they do now.

I've news for you. Thats the game were playing now. Min max is not required for end game content. Sure if you want to solo elite quests, you need to have a tight plan, but even there there is no specific race or build you need to play. You just have to have a good well made character and good game skills and likely some consumable resources on tap.

[dingal]

I've news for you. Thats the game were playing now. Min max is not required for end game content. Sure if you want to solo elite quests, you need to have a tight plan, but even there there is no specific race or build you need to play. You just have to have a good well made character and good game skills and likely some consumable resources on tap.

Agreed. Min max is one way to do it, not the only way.

[SableShadow]

<snip>

I don't necessarily agree with each and every point, but I thought that was an excellent summary. Thank you. :)

[Quarterling]

1 AC is useless in the end game.
You simply cant have high enough AC to matter unless you totally gimp your character in all other ways. Im not talking being unhittable , I just mean useful AC.
So all stats and enhancements that help AC really dont matter.

Actually, I beg to differ (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3747852). The dps on that build is really nice, and the AC is easily sustainable.

I do agree though, that AC does need a fix. It is kind of lame how you can only get useful AC if you properly spec for it, and like you said that is a sacrifice in dps. The only way I'm able to get around that is by using a weapon that uses dexterity for hitting and damage. Of course, that severely limits the weapon choice to... one (unless you count Breeze).

[LordPiglet]

Let's see, my helf has solo'd base 2 in epic Von, the 2nd bard ran off to base 3, didn't show back up until I was taking out the pillar.

My first run in tod for my fvs, I was the only divine. We had 2 ac tanks and the bard covered the sully tank. The same fvs farms sins and a new invasion taking hardly any damage, and no damage when turtled up against most mobs. That's in big thanks to the dr from being a FvS

[Ginetti]

My Half-Orc Wizard disapproves of this post - OP is lucky she is out of SP.

[stille_nacht]

Non min/max builds still obliterate content when good players are behind the keys. I was in an EChrono last week where not one fighter or barbarian was even in the group. How did we even compete without one of the "real" DPS classes there?

One of the biggest lies perpetuated on this forum is your toon has to be a full-****** max-DPS-at-the-expense-of-anything-else-ape to be competitive. It's simply not true.

well, situationally, many min max builds are better than pure ftr or barb dps wise (see a dps chart for all those 12/6/2 s or 12/7/1 s or 13/6/1 s, or similar, i know a good 3rd dont being w/ fighter or barb), and im pretty sure that against 50% fort rogue is still best assuming proper building/gear.

also, how else are you supposed to judge something except by min-max? i mean sure you could say "if i work much harder and play better, the my character will manage to surpass his!" well yeah, but that shouldnt have to be the case (i think payed races should be slightly better than free ones, just not leagues better, how much better horc is, i am unsure). The reason most ppl assume min max in comparisons is simply to illustrate the difference, i mean sure you could say "a mediocre-bad horc is better than a mediocre-bad elf at melee", but its a lot easier to quantify potential imbalance if you assume optimum.

im not saying you have to min-max dps, im just saying its a way to compare.

HOWEVER, i am not all to sure what the benefits of horc really are :/, not an expert, so my opinion on this particular subject is not well qualified, but i do notice a looot runnign around, so they are definately better, but then again, before horc it was WF and before that it was Dwarf, seems that there will always be a "dominant" melee race.

[Chai]

well, situationally, many min max builds are better than pure ftr or barb dps wise (see a dps chart for all those 12/6/2 s or 12/7/1 s or 13/6/1 s, or similar, i know a good 3rd dont being w/ fighter or barb), and im pretty sure that against 50% fort rogue is still best assuming proper building/gear.
.

Those builds dont have the nerf resistance, not to mention that those with rogue levels have to play like a rogue to get that SA damage. The moment multiclass builds get out of control they get scaled back. 6 levels of ranger, Im lookin at you kid.

Anything with a small number of barbarian levels is going to be sorry when the barbarian past life bug is fixed. Who knows, maybe we will log in today and see its "fixed". :p

[grodon9999]

Those builds dont have the nerf resistance, not to mention that those with rogue levels have to play like a rogue to get that SA damage. The moment multiclass builds get out of control they get scaled back. 6 levels of ranger, Im lookin at you kid.

Anything with a small number of barbarian levels is going to be sorry when the barbarian past life bug is fixed. Who knows, maybe we will log in today and see its "fixed". :p

The helplessness change has kinda done that, I think pure fighter will beat the 6-level splashes in DPS most of the time now. Kensai III's advantage was rendered moot with auto-crit but now it'll shine.

I don't think the Blitz's will get hurt too badly when the Barb PL is corrected, not nearly as much as what happened to the Monsters when Tempest was nerfed.