So here is a prime example the new epic scroll distribution system sucks.

[The_Phenx]

I will leave out details to protect the guilty.

Epic Claw.

Pugger goes afk for "2 seconds" 5 minutes later we say screw it and just start running, after debating if we should just recall and reform.

4 minutes after that we see a broadcast message the Piking Pugger "x" has been gifted the awesome prize of the scroll of the gloves of the claw.

So the guy who hasn't moved 1 inch the whole quest gets one of the most sought after scrolls in the game?

2 min later Piking Pugger "x" comes back just long enough to say "bio" and dissapears again.

We all recall, drop group, reform and run it as a 5 man guild run.

We get no scrolls.

Sigh.

There was more to it, but people don't want to hear about rolling on scrolls anymore :)

-------------------------------------------

Done venting. :D

[Vallin]

I will leave out details to protect the guilty.

Piking Pugger "x" has been gifted the awesome prize of the scroll of the gloves of the claw.


As someone who is also rather frustrated at not getting the scrolls he wants, I sympathize.

However, this is a problem with a player - and it is a measure of bad luck. I don't see it as a problem with the system - and this current system IMO is better than what we had before with scroll ninjas.

I'm interested in hearing about new ideas for new systems, but I still think this is the best of the available options so far.

Vallin.

[stainer]

I don't run a lot of epics, but I have ran more than enough to TR a character since the change. I have not received 1 scroll. Not 1.

[Zaodon]

So here is a prime example [why] ... epic ... sucks. :D

Fixed.

:D

[Phidius]

...I'm interested in hearing about new ideas for new systems, but I still think this is the best of the available options so far.
...

My suggestion for a new system is this - instead of having items of value magically transfer from the corpse of a mob to a random inventory, we put all of the monster's loot into a single container. Perhaps, we could tie this to the mob's life force, so you can't open until they're dead.

And instead of one item, we could put something in the chest for everyone, so that no one could complain that someone stole their loot, or that they didn't get anything. Of course, we'd want the ability to transfer something to somebody else (on the offhand chance that something would Bind on Acquire).

The advantage this has is that people have to at least run to the chest, versus piking at the entrance the whole time.

[The_Phenx]

I personally feel Scrolls should be in the chest loot tables like all the other components.

They have a chance to fall in the chest IN ADDITION to how they fall now.

Problem solved.

SO you have a tiny tiny chance to get one as a drop randomly falling into your inventory.

And everyone has the chance to get one in chest, or a shard or a seal.

This way rogues who can stealth dungeons have an actual chance to pull something useful.

[rest]

That's why I solo farm scrolls. If I do an epic in a group, I just accept the fact that I'll never get any good scrolls. Ever. They'll always go to someone else.

[AMDarkwolf]

just remove teh scrolls from the game as they are. Place them in chests that spawn at the end of the quest that are tied to teh optionals in said quest. easy optional, low chance for scroll in chest for you, hard optional, higher chance.

[Vissarion]

That's why I solo farm scrolls. If I do an epic in a group, I just accept the fact that I'll never get any good scrolls. Ever. They'll always go to someone else.

With the corollary that if my wife is in the party, she'll get the scrolls, and lo they shall be awesome.

I've gotten 30 total epic tokens since I started playing epics. Not a lot, I know, but that represents quite a few quests. I have -never, ever, ever, ever- had a scroll drop for me. One time a guy gave me a scroll of the Shatterbow. What the hell am I supposed to do with an epic Shatterbow?!?

My wife, with around 5 epic tokens to her name, including only one Chrono run, has gotten the Bracers of the Claw scroll and the Scorched Bracers scroll...

*headdeskheaddeskheaddesk*

[Kaldais]

I think this whole luck system sucks. They should make scrolls purchasable via epic tokens.

[Missing_Minds]

I think this whole luck system sucks. They should make scrolls purchasable via epic tokens.

Actually... keep the current version AND add this idea in. Gives players a choice to farm for it, or maybe they'll get lucky. But also a way to guarantee the paper for it.

[Undone1]

I think this whole luck system sucks. They should make scrolls purchasable via epic tokens.

No, Scrolls are unbound and therefor the easiest part to acquire you just have to be willing to cough up the red scales. Excluding desert raid scrolls the "Rare" loot is pretty cheap as ~12-15 Evon6 runs gets you any scroll you want (Again excluding desert raid scrolls) VIA scales, and if you just farm up plat->LDS->RDS you get whatever scroll you want. (again barring desert raid scrolls)

[Carpone]

I think this whole luck system sucks. They should make scrolls purchasable via epic tokens.
This. /signed

[Carpone]

No, Scrolls are unbound and therefor the easiest part to acquire you just have to be willing to cough up the red scales. Excluding desert raid scrolls the "Rare" loot is pretty cheap as ~12-15 Evon6 runs gets you any scroll you want (Again excluding desert raid scrolls) VIA scales, and if you just farm up plat->LDS->RDS you get whatever scroll you want. (again barring desert raid scrolls)
You have alot of caveats about desert scrolls. They're one of the biggest problems in the game, with 64 epic desert items. What's good for Sands is good for the rest of the epics.

[BlackSteel]

No, Scrolls are unbound and therefor the easiest part to acquire you just have to be willing to cough up the red scales. Excluding desert raid scrolls the "Rare" loot is pretty cheap as ~12-15 Evon6 runs gets you any scroll you want (Again excluding desert raid scrolls) VIA scales, and if you just farm up plat->LDS->RDS you get whatever scroll you want. (again barring desert raid scrolls)

thats if u can pull scales.

My red scale drop rate is about 1 in every 60 runs. no joke. I've pulled more +4 tomes than red scales (which isnt alot either).

[PwnHammer40K]

... I don't see it as a problem with the system ...As long as you have unhappy clients, no matter what the reason, that is a problem with the system, nothing else.

[stoolcannon]

I will leave out details to protect the guilty.

Epic Claw.

Pugger goes afk for "2 seconds" 5 minutes later we say screw it and just start running, after debating if we should just recall and reform.

4 minutes after that we see a broadcast message the Piking Pugger "x" has been gifted the awesome prize of the scroll of the gloves of the claw.

So the guy who hasn't moved 1 inch the whole quest gets one of the most sought after scrolls in the game?

2 min later Piking Pugger "x" comes back just long enough to say "bio" and dissapears again.

We all recall, drop group, reform and run it as a 5 man guild run.

We get no scrolls.

Sigh.

There was more to it, but people don't want to hear about rolling on scrolls anymore :)

-------------------------------------------

Done venting. :D

I would rage quit the game for two days, call Turbine's customer service and rage all over them, calling them incompetent turds and then return to the greatest run of luck with drop rates I've ever had (all without ever actually stopping playing).

But that's just me.

[The_Phenx]

http://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/4079572/RAGE-QUIT.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Intense-Rage-Guy

[stoolcannon]

Seriously though that one would be really annoying. Scroll drops are already effed up.

The odds of someone getting 3 of 4 or 4 of 4 scroll drops in a single quest are minuscule to the point of being ridiculous but yet I see it happen day in and day out.

Then there's the above scenario with a non contributor getting the scroll. I had a similar situation in a run a few weeks ago. Cleric wasn't healing, people were dying left and right and yet the big ole dumb barb (me) stayed alive the entire quest, rezzed people and was the reason we even completed (and lol we were in Last Stand for the love of all that's good) and the most worthless of the bunch (some dude that had like 12 deaths in a last stand) got the scroll of the gloves of the claw.



FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[voodoogroves]

Seriously though that one would be really annoying. Scroll drops are already effed up.

The odds of someone getting 3 of 4 or 4 of 4 scroll drops in a single quest are minuscule to the point of being ridiculous but yet I see it happen day in and day out.

My scroll luck is horrid. Horrid. The few I have, I purchased.

[Buggss]

This system sucks as much as the original "Who can click the scroll on the floor fastest" did before.

Turbine needs to take a leaf out of Age of Conan in this respect: When a scroll drops everyone inside the dungeon that ISN'T AFK (the main problem) clicks an "interested" button which lasts for 10-20 seconds and when the timer runs out a 1d100 is rolled with the highest player getting the scroll. This will avoid pikers getting scrolls (although if theyr'e just watching for scrolls you'll know it the first time they click whilst afk whether they win or not) and will still leave that element of chance as well Turbine like so much.

It'll also mean the timer click shouldn't ruin fights as 20 seconds is longer than any single fight is likely to last.

How's that sound?

[Zenako]

To deal with the "piker" aspect, just make the scroll drops work with the same algorithm they use for the Risia Coins and Fire critters. You have to be within a certain radius of the mob killed to get a coin drop. So a piker at the beginning of a quest would soon be out of distance and get a 0% chance of getting the drop.

To effectively heal or buff or CC, you need to be in the "area" at least so those all would be eligible for drops.

The old system of ninja looting scrolls was worse and really worked against playing any sort of support role in those quests unless you were in a guild group and everyone was on the ball and made a point of trading/rolling scrolls later.

[Twerpp]

I will leave out details to protect the guilty.

Epic Claw.

Pugger goes afk for "2 seconds" 5 minutes later we say screw it and just start running, after debating if we should just recall and reform.

4 minutes after that we see a broadcast message the Piking Pugger "x" has been gifted the awesome prize of the scroll of the gloves of the claw.

So the guy who hasn't moved 1 inch the whole quest gets one of the most sought after scrolls in the game?

2 min later Piking Pugger "x" comes back just long enough to say "bio" and dissapears again.

We all recall, drop group, reform and run it as a 5 man guild run.

We get no scrolls.

Sigh.

There was more to it, but people don't want to hear about rolling on scrolls anymore :)

-------------------------------------------

Done venting. :D

lol What can you do but laugh at that?

[stoolcannon]

My scroll luck is horrid. Horrid. The few I have, I purchased.

Right up until last week mine was too. My luck with drops has been really bad in general then suddenly things turned a corner.

In the past 2 weeks (and I am forgetting several things):
Envenomed Cloak Scroll
Time Sensing Goggles Scroll
Souleater Scroll
6-7x other scrolls
(Keep in mind I don't solo, these are group runs)

Ring of the Ravager (Paladin)
Tempest Ring (Paladin)
KoTC Ring (Paladin)

3x Epic Red Scales in 3 consecutive runs
SoS Seal
Marilith Shard
Madstone boots (Paladin again)

Most of that came in a 3 day period from Fridayish to yesterday.

All I had to do was scream at Turbine support.

[doubledge]

i neeeeeeeed tokens

[Zaodon]

Epic gear is too luck based to begin with. Each component is a rare drop. That's just a grindfest, and those are categorically the most boring parts of any MMORPG.

Look at Shroud crafting. The raw components are luck based/rare drops, but there are only 7 fixed types, and the combination of components into recipes makes different items, which makes the grinding meaningful but manageable.

Epic crafting should be changed entirely.
- Genericize the components: The rare drops would be "Base Scroll Component", "Base Shard Component", "Base Seal Component". Think of this as essentially equivalent to shards of power, except you need all 3 to make an epic item, not "tiers" like Shroud treats them.

- each of these components would need to be crafted into the "proper" scroll, shard and seal, based on other generic rare drops, but in a limited diversity. For example, VoN drops 8 different epic ingredients which, when combined in certain "formulas", can create the recipe for any VoN item. Desert would have more, say, 15 ingredients, which would combine in different formula to create each Desert item. Same for Devil Assault. Same for anything else in the game.

So, if I want to make Epic SOS, I get the 3 generic "components" from any epic raid or quest. Then, I farm epic VoN (specifically) for the right epic ingredients. Using the proper formula, I combine the ingredients (using epic tokens) with the base components to make "Scroll of SOS", "Shard of SOS" and "Seal of SOS". I then make the Epic SOS the current way.

Ta Da!

[stoolcannon]

Epic gear is too luck based to begin with. Each component is a rare drop. That's just a grindfest, and those are categorically the most boring parts of any MMORPG.

Look at Shroud crafting. The raw components are luck based/rare drops, but there are only 7 fixed types, and the combination of components into recipes makes different items, which makes the grinding meaningful but manageable.

Epic crafting should be changed entirely.
- Genericize the components: The rare drops would be "Base Scroll Component", "Base Shard Component", "Base Seal Component". Think of this as essentially equivalent to shards of power, except you need all 3 to make an epic item, not "tiers" like Shroud treats them.

- each of these components would need to be crafted into the "proper" scroll, shard and seal, based on other generic rare drops, but in a limited diversity. For example, VoN drops 8 different epic ingredients which, when combined in certain "formulas", can create the recipe for any VoN item. Desert would have more, say, 15 ingredients, which would combine in different formula to create each Desert item. Same for Devil Assault. Same for anything else in the game.

So, if I want to make Epic SOS, I get the 3 generic "components" from epic raids. Then, I farm epic raids for the right epic ingredients. Using the proper formula, I combine the ingredients (using epic tokens) with the base components to make "Scroll of SOS", "Shard of SOS" and "Seal of SOS". I then make the Epic SOS the current way.

Ta Da!

So you're saying turn it into Shroud crafting?

[Zaodon]

So you're saying turn it into Shroud crafting?

I'm saying have 1 crafting system that works the same everywhere. Don't call it "shroud" crafting, because its not the same (its not Tiered). It just uses the same "mechanic".

So, instead of grinding for 1 SPECIFIC scroll, shard and seal, you're grinding for x specific ingredients to make the scroll, shard and seal you want.

[grodon9999]

So you're saying turn it into Shroud crafting?

Shroud crafting is infinitely better than epic.

[grodon9999]

I'm saying have 1 crafting system that works the same everywhere. Don't call it "shroud" crafting, because its not the same (its not Tiered). It just uses the same "mechanic".

So, instead of grinding for 1 SPECIFIC scroll, shard and seal, you're grinding for x specific ingredients to make the scroll, shard and seal you want.

Like goat, dragon, and lion sigils for the crappy Sentinels loot?

[Phidius]

So you're saying turn it into Shroud crafting?

The most popular and successful form of crafting? Sounds good to me.

[Khanyth]

First of all.... I do agree that this is a flaw in the epic quest system.

Second of all... I do know that hindsight is 20/20.

....But I have to ask: why didn't you boot them? I've done the same thing where I had to go to the washroom and had to attend my screaming kid, and be gone for longer than I said it was, once a quest started. I got booted from that group.

Again, I do sympathize with your situation, but what made them so special that they didn't get the boot?

[stoolcannon]

I'm saying have 1 crafting system that works the same everywhere. Don't call it "shroud" crafting, because its not the same (its not Tiered). It just uses the same "mechanic".

So, instead of grinding for 1 SPECIFIC scroll, shard and seal, you're grinding for x specific ingredients to make the scroll, shard and seal you want.

Oh I wasn't implying that shroud crafting is worse or better (I actually prefer it to Epic Crafting) just trying to make sense of the suggestion.

I agree with a change of the system.

Mabar system should be used for everything in terms of the actual interface. It makes it very easy to not foul it up unlike shroud crafting.

[Zaodon]

Like goat, dragon, and lion sigils for the crappy Sentinels loot?

No, let me give a concrete example (I'll use SOS again).

You farm any epic quest or raid for the generic "scroll", "shard" and "seal" base components (bound to character or account).

Then, you need to start farming VoN Epic for ingredients. Say there are 8 ingredients for VoN:
- Blood of the Dragon
- Rune of the Hammer
- Sliver of the Marut
- Fire of the Elemental
- Eye of the Beholder
- Saliva of the Troll
- Club of the Orge
- Beard of the Dwarf

Again, this could be bound to character or account or even tradable, up to Turbine.

To make "Scroll of SOS" you need the base scroll plus:
- 1 Blood, 1 Sliver, 1 Club, 1 Beard (+1 epic token)

To make "Shard of SOS" you need the base shard plus:
- 1 Blood, 1 Sliver, 1 Fire, 1 Eye (+1 epic token)

To make "Seal of SOS" you need the base seal plus:
- 1 Rune, 1 Sliver, 1 Fire, 1 Beard (+1 epic token)

These would be bound to char or at least account (not tradable for sure).

Now you have the 3 epic items (scroll, shard, seal) and make the final item the same way you do in game.

For Desert, there would be more ingredients (say 15 instead of 8), all different than my examples above, which would be specific to Desert epics.

The nice thing is, if they switch to this system, any current scrolls, shards and seals are STILL GOOD and USABLE, since they *are* the right scroll, shard and seal. Its just that from that point on, no new ones would drop as complete components, you'd now have to build them using the new system.

[phalaeo]

This is what happened recently in a Prey with guildies!

+2 Seeker Longbow of Precision drops, and that dirty ****er Larkmin looted it out from underneath us!

I'll name names. That ***** will pay.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/phalaeo/ninja.jpg

[andbr22]

Well it is a lot better than ninja looting.

To cope with problem the boest would be probably shock terapy:
If someone don't even try to contribute then all should drop and reform without that person. No need to DNG at spot, maybe guy had bad day, or wasn't prepared for epics (wizard that cannot land hold that last more than 4 seconds). You sould just send tell to guy what did he done bad, and why did you dich him.
This same go for leting piking strange characters to cap. Clerics without wisdom to cast spells. "Tank wizards" in full plate armor. Yes it can be time consuming, but you will make favor to community (just imagine what would that people do in Shroud), and for said people because they have to stop somewhere.

[stoolcannon]

No, let me give a concrete example (I'll use SOS again).

You farm any epic quest or raid for the generic "scroll", "shard" and "seal" base components (bound to character).

Then, you need to start farming VoN Epic for ingredients. Say there are 8 ingredients for VoN:
- Blood of the Dragon
- Rune of the Hammer
- Sliver of the Marut
- Fire of the Elemental
- Eye of the Beholder
- Saliva of the Troll
- Club of the Orge
- Beard of the Dwarf

Again, this could be bound to character or account or even tradable, up to Turbine.

To make "Scroll of SOS" you need the base scroll plus:
- 1 Blood, 1 Sliver, 1 Club, 1 Beard (+1 epic token)

To make "Shard of SOS" you need the base shard plus:
- 1 Blood, 1 Sliver, 1 Fire, 1 Eye (+1 epic token)

To make "Seal of SOS" you need the base seal plus:
- 1 Rune, 1 Sliver, 1 Fire, 1 Beard (+1 epic token)

These would be bound to char or at least account (not tradable for sure).

Now you have the 3 epic items (scroll, shard, seal) and make the final item the same way you do in game.

The nice thing is, if they switch to this system, any current scrolls, shards and seals are STILL GOOD. Its just no new ones would drop as complete components, you'd now have to build them.

All you did was make it more complicated. The items are still von specific and you even suggested making them BTC. Are you trying to make it even more difficult to get epic items?

I'd rather see a more generalized crafting system similar to shroud:

Collect:
Epic Ore
Epic Crystal Fragments
Epic Seal Fragments
Epic Scroll Fragments
Epic Peens (mine of course)
etc.

Combine X number of above ingredients in various recipes to create Seal of the X, Shard of the X and Scroll of the X.

SUre, some recipes require more, just like with GS. THe SoS is way better than most so make it cost 2X the fragments but still better than random hoping and praying we have to day. In other words, grind with an end in sight knowing if I do this work it WILL pay off instead of knowing if I do this work it PROBABLY WONT pay off.

[stoolcannon]

Well it is a lot better than ninja looting.

To cope with problem the boest would be probably shock terapy:
If someone don't even try to contribute then all should drop and reform without that person. No need to DNG at spot, maybe guy had bad day, or wasn't prepared for epics (wizard that cannot land hold that last more than 4 seconds). You sould just send tell to guy what did he done bad, and why did you dich him.
This same go for leting piking strange characters to cap. Clerics without wisdom to cast spells. "Tank wizards" in full plate armor. Yes it can be time consuming, but you will make favor to community (just imagine what would that people do in Shroud), and for said people because they have to stop somewhere.

I never once had someone ninja loot in an epic. Don't know anyone else who did either.

[grodon9999]

No, let me give a concrete example (I'll use SOS again).

You farm any epic quest or raid for the generic "scroll", "shard" and "seal" base components (bound to character).

Then, you need to start farming VoN Epic for ingredients. Say there are 8 ingredients for VoN:
- Blood of the Dragon
- Rune of the Hammer
- Sliver of the Marut
- Fire of the Elemental
- Eye of the Beholder
- Saliva of the Troll
- Club of the Orge
- Beard of the Dwarf

Again, this could be bound to character or account or even tradable, up to Turbine.

To make "Scroll of SOS" you need the base scroll plus:
- 1 Blood, 1 Sliver, 1 Club, 1 Beard (+1 epic token)

To make "Shard of SOS" you need the base shard plus:
- 1 Blood, 1 Sliver, 1 Fire, 1 Eye (+1 epic token)

To make "Seal of SOS" you need the base seal plus:
- 1 Rune, 1 Sliver, 1 Fire, 1 Beard (+1 epic token)

These would be bound to char or at least account (not tradable for sure).

Now you have the 3 epic items (scroll, shard, seal) and make the final item the same way you do in game.

For Desert, there would be more ingredients (say 15 instead of 8), all different than my examples above, which would be specific to Desert epics.

The nice thing is, if they switch to this system, any current scrolls, shards and seals are STILL GOOD and USABLE, since they *are* the right scroll, shard and seal. Its just that from that point on, no new ones would drop as complete components, you'd now have to build them using the new system.

I like it, hopefully a dev reads this.

[Zaodon]

All you did was make it more complicated. The items are still von specific and you even suggested making them BTC. Are you trying to make it even more difficult to get epic items?

Right now, you have to grind for 1 specific scroll, 1 specific shard, and 1 specific seal.

For VoN, there are 20 items. That means you are shooting for 1 in 20, 3 times (scroll shard and seal). In Desert there are, what, 64? That's 1 in 64, 3 times.

My system allows you to grind for 8 (or 15) objects. You'll need 4 objects, which vary based on the item, but only 4 objects per item.

For VoN, thats 4 in 8, 3 times. For Desert, thats 4 in 15, 3 times.

So, you'll still need to grind, but a crapload less, to get epic items. And I suggested that the raw ingredients might be tradable/AH-able, just like Shroud Ingredients are. Its up to Turbine to figure that out, balance-wise.

Also, with my system, you're still building a scroll, shard and seal, so Turbine could convert to my system without screwing over any existing scrolls, shards or seals anyone has. They will still work as-is.

[stoolcannon]

Right now, you have to grind for 1 specific scroll, 1 specific shard, and 1 specific seal.

For VoN, there are 20 items. That means you are shooting for 1 in 20, 3 times (scroll shard and seal). In Desert there are, what, 64? That's 1 in 64, 3 times.

My system allows you to grind for 8 (or 15) objects. You'll need 4 objects, which vary based on the item, but only 4 objects per item.

For VoN, thats 4 in 8, 3 times. For Desert, thats 4 in 15, 3 times.

So, you'll still need to grind, but a crapload less, to get epic items.

Point taken. The BTC is still horrifying though. I'd rather eat a turd than get another BTC item in my inventory.

[The_Phenx]

First of all.... I do agree that this is a flaw in the epic quest system.

Second of all... I do know that hindsight is 20/20.

....But I have to ask: why didn't you boot them? I've done the same thing where I had to go to the washroom and had to attend my screaming kid, and be gone for longer than I said it was, once a quest started. I got booted from that group.

Again, I do sympathize with your situation, but what made them so special that they didn't get the boot?

Once you are in quest you cant boot.. the whole party has to recall drop and reform.

[Chai]

I do agree that scroll distribution has been screwed up however.....

Here are my reasons against having scrolls drop from chests.

1. This is a bad player issue, and not a loot distribution issue. Sucks that piker #8,315 got that scroll with minimal effort. Had we not cried about the way they just dropped on the floor in the past, said piker would have at least had to exert some effort to keep up with the party and be in position to ninja loot. There is a somewhat of a case history where we complain about some game mechanic and the change that finally happens either doesnt help or is worse than the previous mechanic.

2. If you are looting from a chest or if the game distributes the scroll from the dead mob itself, in both cases the game is doing a "secret roll" to determine what loot you are getting, and then allows you to take it. The only real difference in this scenario is that your piker would have had to run to the chest to get their scroll for one of the more sought after epic items in the game.

3. Having scrolls appear in chests now eliminates the last reason to have to kill the mobs at all. Many of the epic quests can be stealthed with a minimum number of mobs killed, and this is how seals and shards are farmed. What reason will there be to kill the mobs at all if they make scrolls drop from chests?

[Zaodon]

Point taken. The BTC is still horrifying though. I'd rather eat a turd than get another BTC item in my inventory.

Shards/Seals are already BtA, and epic item itself is BtC.

The "base" (empty) components could be BtA.
The "ingredients" could be unbound.

Once the "base" components are "enchanted" with ingredients to be the specific scroll/shard/seal, it would at least remain BtA, but likely, BtC because of the act of making the specific, completed components.

The next step is to use them to make the epic item, which is already BtC.

So:
- farm epic quests or raids, get generic "Base" components. Pass them around between characters. (base scroll, base shard, base seal, all empty and non-pack-specific)
- farm the proper epic quests/raids to get ingredients for that Adventure Pack. Tradeable/AH-able. (the 8/15 ingredients)
- bind the ingredients to the "base" components, creating item-specific components (bound to character) (scroll of sos, shard of sos, seal of sos)
- make epic item (bound to character). (Epic SOS)

In the end, you end up with more "Tradable" stuff this way than the current way.

[stoolcannon]

Shards and Seals are already BTC. Only scrolls are not.



Incorrect

[The_Phenx]

Like I said add them to chest.. dont take it away from killed mob drops.

Both in place = more success.

And I never whined at the previous system.

[voodoogroves]

Incorrect

Yeah no doubt. About had a panic attack.

[Drfirewater79]

As someone who is also rather frustrated at not getting the scrolls he wants, I sympathize.

However, this is a problem with a player - and it is a measure of bad luck. I don't see it as a problem with the system - and this current system IMO is better than what we had before with scroll ninjas.

I'm interested in hearing about new ideas for new systems, but I still think this is the best of the available options so far.

Vallin.

I agree ... the system isnt the problem the pug was .... after 5 mins i would have dropped and reformed and sent him a tell saying when he is ready to play to let you know. If you can short man epics then why bother pugging at all.

Problem is the drop rate is not high enough and not enough factors are taken into consideration. If you ask me all the seals shards and scrolls drop rates need to be doubled.

[stoolcannon]

Yeah no doubt. About had a panic attack.

Amazing how many long time players I've run into that don't know those are BTA. I see it about once a month where someone slaps their forehead and goes ***! I've been playing for X years and didn't realize that.

[MrkGrismer]

Pugger goes afk for "2 seconds" 5 minutes later we say screw it and just start running, after debating if we should just recall and reform.

No offense meant, but it seem like you simply made a poor choice there ^^

Not that I am saying I approve of how epic currently is, I don't. But how the scrolls drop is just a teaspoon of water out of the ocean.

[Zaodon]

Amazing how many long time players I've run into that don't know those are BTA. I see it about once a month where someone slaps their forehead and goes ***! I've been playing for X years and didn't realize that.

Yeah, sorry, I fixed it.

With my system, *more* things are tradable than the current one. They only get locked down once crafted into the specific components. Again, subject to Turbine's decision here.

[The_Phenx]

I agree ... the system isnt the problem the pug was .... after 5 mins i would have dropped and reformed and sent him a tell saying when he is ready to play to let you know. If you can short man epics then why bother pugging at all.

Problem is the drop rate is not high enough and not enough factors are taken into consideration. If you ask me all the seals shards and scrolls drop rates need to be doubled.

EHH We were only 3 and started filling puggers for the last three when a couple guildies logged in, and figured we would be nice and let the pugger tag along

[rest]

Seals are already BTC.


After seeing this statement, I now dismiss everything you have posted.

If you don't know how it currently works, how can you suggest changes?

[Irinis]

No, Scrolls are unbound and therefor the easiest part to acquire you just have to be willing to cough up the red scales. Excluding desert raid scrolls the "Rare" loot is pretty cheap as ~12-15 Evon6 runs gets you any scroll you want (Again excluding desert raid scrolls) VIA scales, and if you just farm up plat->LDS->RDS you get whatever scroll you want. (again barring desert raid scrolls)

Which is why I've been trying to buy echrono scrolls for 2 months without any luck at all finding someone SELLING them... because you can just buy any scroll for reds. Uh-huh. *nods*

[Zaodon]

After seeing this statement, I now dismiss everything you have posted.
If you don't know how it currently works, how can you suggest changes?

1. I already said it was a typo and was fixed.
2. Your second question makes no sense, since anyone can envision a system for how something should work without knowledge of any currently existing system.

[Chai]

What would solve alot of these issues is a real crafting system, or an actual quest chain. And no, I am not talking about tossing some flowers, twigs, fungus, and chipmunk turds into the Altar of Redundancy® and throwing a switch. That is the closest thing we have to a real crafting system right now, but I think it even needs to be taken a different direction for epic.

When you get the SOS and show it to some dude in house K, he could hint that the weapon is a shell of its former self back when it was used by so and so thousands of years ago. There are legends about how (s)he enchanted this sword to use it in a war that brought about a new age in the history of blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.....wait.....We cant just give the Epic Sword of a Thousand Truths to a NOOB!!!! You must prove your worth by bringing me this list of totally worthless garbage and then I will enchant the weapon for you.

[Gulnar13]

- Beard of the Dwarf

I already see the trade topics...

"WTT a dwarf beard for a devil ass!"

Anyway, the system should be VERY good, with those suggestion, and maybe the ability to buy mats for a high (10-15) number of tokens.

[Zaodon]

What would solve alot of these issues is a real crafting system. And no, I am not talking about tossing some flowers, twigs, fungus, and chipmunk turds into the Altar of Redundancy® and throwing a switch. That is the closest thing we have to a real crafting system right now, but I think it even needs to be taken a different direction for epic.

Share your ideas! Don't keep it inside! Let it out!!

[Drfirewater79]

Once you are in quest you cant boot.. the whole party has to recall drop and reform.

And while it caused more grief when you could do that .. it is greatly missed. There is nothing anyone can do about pikers cept take there names down and never party with them again .. look up there character name and there alts via my ddo and post there names on your guild site and put a link saying something like "pikers and there offenses" with a link to your guild site. Its all completely in the rules cause your not directly posting anything on the forums about the person and its completely legal to bad mouth someone over the internet your simply giving a link to a personal blog about your experiences.

Also big difference between what OP is talking about and someone who just goes afk for a bit. Bio breaks make sense .... being gone for 5 mins just to come back and say you will be gone longer ... that is an ******* move if not a guildy. At least a guildy will let you pike from time to time ... i really hate it when pugs cant say .. shoot something came up dont have time to run this with you let me drop so you can pick up someone who will actually help.

[Drfirewater79]

EHH We were only 3 and started filling puggers for the last three when a couple guildies logged in, and figured we would be nice and let the pugger tag along

Dont get me wrong its admirable .... i tend to pug alot especially epics .. but if i notice someone standing at the front doing nothing ... its a good sign that guy is holding me back not helping me progress ...its still nothing to do with the system ... had that guy not been a piker ... he might have still won the roll (cause that is all the new system does is take away the roll) even worse he would have likely taken the scroll and not said anything ...

[Drfirewater79]

What would solve alot of these issues is a real crafting system, or an actual quest chain. And no, I am not talking about tossing some flowers, twigs, fungus, and chipmunk turds into the Altar of Redundancy® and throwing a switch. That is the closest thing we have to a real crafting system right now, but I think it even needs to be taken a different direction for epic.

When you get the SOS and show it to some dude in house K, he could hint that the weapon is a shell of its former self back when it was used by so and so thousands of years ago. There are legends about how (s)he enchanted this sword to use it in a war that brought about a new age in the history of blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.....wait.....We cant just give the Epic Sword of a Thousand Truths to a NOOB!!!! You must prove your worth by bringing me this list of totally worthless garbage and then I will enchant the weapon for you.

Yeah i agree .... it wouldnt suck if they took into mind the blank items .. like collect 10 of the blank to get a scroll collect 50 to get seal and keep shards as end chest only on epic.

Or even better drop the whole epic thing and start with deconstruction crafting allowing us to make weapons we want out of weapons we have ...d econstruct a raid item that has 10 slots and slot your own attributes in it.

[Chai]

EHH We were only 3 and started filling puggers for the last three when a couple guildies logged in, and figured we would be nice and let the pugger tag along

This is always how the story begins, isnt it.

Man I have been farming this bloodstone for weeks now. Pugger joins, runs once, pulls bloodstone, leaves.

You guys: Sure you can tag along, yeah its cool.

PUGer is awarded the best item in the quest after 17 nanoseconds of piking.

PUGer: Have a good one guys. ALT-F4.

Party: /facepalm

Seen it happen a thousand times.

Man I only get 1500 xp for shadow crypt runs now but I NEEEEED those handwraps.

Pure fighter who joined halfway through the run and basically piked opens chest, loots handwraps, /leaves.

Sigh.

[The_Phenx]

Dont get me wrong its admirable .... i tend to pug alot especially epics .. but if i notice someone standing at the front doing nothing ... its a good sign that guy is holding me back not helping me progress ...its still nothing to do with the system ... had that guy not been a piker ... he might have still won the roll (cause that is all the new system does is take away the roll) even worse he would have likely taken the scroll and not said anything ...


Actually he had no idea he even received the scroll till we mentioned it, when he returned form being afk. We all rolled including him, he lost, then he "couldn't find it in his bag" to hand it to the winner, then he dc'd.

Guess thats his prerogative since it fell into his bag, but he was told everything would be rolled on to be fair since there were 4 different guilds in the run.

When I refer to guildies I generally mean members of our Vent channel and guild alliance.

[Cyr]

That sucks OP, but it's the same if it's in the chest for a piker. He can run to the chest and click on it once he gets back.

This is not an example of why the scroll system sucks so much as it is an example of how annoying pikers can be.

[The_Phenx]

Kinda both. But ya.. just venting a bit.

[redoubt]

As someone who is also rather frustrated at not getting the scrolls he wants, I sympathize.

However, this is a problem with a player - and it is a measure of bad luck. I don't see it as a problem with the system - and this current system IMO is better than what we had before with scroll ninjas.

I'm interested in hearing about new ideas for new systems, but I still think this is the best of the available options so far.

Vallin.

Everyone likes to say the roll was already done if it appears with your name on it, right?

So fine... but before the roll have a popup that you have to click on. If every person who is not afk (as deteremined by /afk or time) clicks the roll is made without the afk person and cannot be assigned to the afk person.

What happens? Well if everyone is there and everyone clicks, its the same as now, but with a quick pop up.

Case two, someone is afk for a legit reason (i.e. they told you and you believe them) you can wait. As long as one person who is afk has not clicked the roll will not happen. (To prevent reverse griefing on this, all rolls will happen for non-afk people upon quest completion if the pop-ups were not clicked.)

Case three, someone is afk and piking. The five remaining people click on the popup and the roll is made and the loot is assigned to someone actually at keyboard.

That work for ya?

[EKKM]

I personally feel Scrolls should be in the chest loot tables like all the other components.

They have a chance to fall in the chest IN ADDITION to how they fall now.

Problem solved.

SO you have a tiny tiny chance to get one as a drop randomly falling into your inventory.

And everyone has the chance to get one in chest, or a shard or a seal.

This way rogues who can stealth dungeons have an actual chance to pull something useful.

I think the reason that scrolls are not in chests is turbines way of making sure we dont just zerg the quests without killing things. I agree with them in principle so I'd like some mechanic to ensure that other than a "Kill 20 mobs" requirement to complete.

I like the alternative posted where we have the current method PLUS the option to achire them via token turn ins. I would also suggest that the drop rate be increased.

I realize I have not done a lot of epics, maybe 20, but I have not received one scroll. That rate seems rediculously low.

[The_Phenx]

Several hundred. ANd I have gotten a bunch BUT I have bought every single one I have ever needed to craft.

[quityourjobs]

I realize I have not done a lot of epics, maybe 20, but I have not received one scroll. That rate seems rediculously low.

Exactly. The problem isn't the distribution method. It's the drop rate.

I've run a lot of epics since u8, gotten 3 scrolls total. We frequently run an entire Into the Deep without a single scroll dropping.

Turbine, fix this. It's ****ing off your player base.

[stoolcannon]

I think the reason that scrolls are not in chests is turbines way of making sure we dont just zerg the quests without killing things. I agree with them in principle so I'd like some mechanic to ensure that other than a "Kill 20 mobs" requirement to complete.

.

Alternatively they could make the quests fun enough and with enough variety that we actually wanted to run them instead f skipping everything to get to a chest.

[wiglin]

The rolls are already done. I congratulate the winner when any scrolls drop. No need to roll again, just keep playing. I think scrolls were a bad idea in the first place, they promote solo farming. In fact a lot of times a caster will prefer to solo most of the quest for a chance at scrolls then put up an lfm for boss fight, so the mellee come along and get the chest. They call it free loot, but really it's, come help me finish because I didn't want you messing up my scroll chance.

Personally I think scrolls should be removed from random drops and placed in the chests throughout the quest, with seals being in the end chest, and shards being in the final chest of last quest in the story arc. This would eliminate the whole, we need to roll on scrolls, and remove the caster only scroll farming nature of epics. I even rolled a caster just to scroll farm, but it is really to boring for me.

I find myself playing less and less. Too much stick and not enough carrot for my taste. Of course others will disagree thinking epic should mean rare.... but really this game is all about PvE, it doesn't matter what gear people have. Epic in this game really just means ML20.

I have no idea what the new epic will mean. Personally I enjoy epic quests now. I like that enchantment spells are once again useful, especially since they were pretty muh since gianthold.

[somerecluse]

if most of you had your way end game would be even worse than it is now. personally i think epic items should be even harder to get than they are now. however the distribution is the problem... and while im not quite sure how to fix that.. maybe like the age of conan way someone else suggested. seemed fair to me. however i think its silly i can join a group and every thfer in it has an esos... and half with red dragonscale.. while i understand its still a very small amount of the population i still think it could be even less. if you make epics as easily obtained as greensteel and all it simply took was time (even just a month longer) to get any epic ya wanted that hardly makes it epic to me. i think they should just change the random distribution and add other forms of end game content entirely (additional levels or epic enhancements/feats etc) that way when you dont get your scroll or shard whatever it may be you still accomplished something... however they both need to be huge timesinks while still making progress. if you guys think greensteel is a huge timesink you are mistaken. so epics shouldnt take anywhere close to as little time as it takes to make t3 greensteel items.

[NXPlasmid]

Why are you all complaining. The devs already said that epics are gonna be fixed soon...

[The_Phenx]

Why are you all complaining. The devs already said that epics are gonna be fixed soon...

???

All I saw was a random post months ago saying they new the system needed fixing.

Did I miss something somewhere?

[CaptGrim]

This has been brought up a number of times. The reason is this needs fixed. Personally I've never had anyone ninja loot a scroll before the change to the drops.

I'm pretty sure the ninja loot change actully hurt drop rates. When scrolls do drop( seemingly) more rarly than before, the randomness is obvisously borked. If multiple scrolls do happen to drop in one quest, it is very likely to have them go to one player. I have seem this happen many times and the "random" roll really needs looked at.

Epic quests also lack consistancy.

What drops where and from which chests how often needs to be adjusted so that it is the same through out all epic packs.

I don't mind the scroll, seal, shard system, but it needs normalized drop rates so a few ingreds are excedingly rare, while the other peices are not to terrible to get your hands on.

These are just a few of the epic loot problems that need fixxed in the reboot.

[elricken]

There are always exceptions to the majority, and the majority is that the new system is over nine thousand times better than the old.

[The_Phenx]

I honestly dont feel like it is.

Instead of someone collecting scrolls and everyone rolling at the end.. .generally on what they need/dont.

People now keep everything that lands in their bags regardless of need or ability to use to throw on the auction house or trade channel later.

I find it much much harder to get anything I am looking for without paying a ridiculous fee to someone else.

[transtemporal]

Blacklist and move on OP. I don't usually advocate blacklisting but that's pretty blatant.

[MrkGrismer]

Why are you all complaining. The devs already said that epics are gonna be fixed Soon™...

Fixed.

... and I don't think they really said that, so much as hinted that they are looking into it.

[kernal42]

Everyone likes to say the roll was already done if it appears with your name on it, right?

So fine... but before the roll have a popup that you have to click on. If every person who is not afk (as deteremined by /afk or time) clicks the roll is made without the afk person and cannot be assigned to the afk person.

What happens? Well if everyone is there and everyone clicks, its the same as now, but with a quick pop up.

Case two, someone is afk for a legit reason (i.e. they told you and you believe them) you can wait. As long as one person who is afk has not clicked the roll will not happen. (To prevent reverse griefing on this, all rolls will happen for non-afk people upon quest completion if the pop-ups were not clicked.)

Case three, someone is afk and piking. The five remaining people click on the popup and the roll is made and the loot is assigned to someone actually at keyboard.

That work for ya?

No, I don't want boxes popping up on my screen in the middle of combat.

[NXPlasmid]

Fixed.

... and I don't think they really said that, so much as hinted that they are looking into it.

Oh yeah I think you are right, what I meant to say is:

Why are you all complaining, the devs said that epics are Vast and Mysterious

[vorpel]

How about the scrolls continue to drop the way they do, but for 5 raid/dungeon tokens you can get a list of scrolls to choose from like turning in draconic runes in Reaver's Refuge? Have the list contain 33% or 50% of the scrolls for that area. This would ensure that this isn't an easy button to get the scroll that you want, but it would reward effort by requiring epic raid/dungeon tokens.

Just food for thought.

Thx!

[redoubt]

No, I don't want boxes popping up on my screen in the middle of combat.

They could do it intelligently and put it off to the side... I never said it was a requirement to block your whole view...

[lugoman]

They could do it intelligently and put it off to the side... I never said it was a requirement to block your whole view...

Well if Turbine was intelligent this thread wouldnt exist in the first place.

[~jradnut]

I think this whole luck system sucks. They should make scrolls purchasable via epic tokens.


Yeah, I could go along with this.

[sephiroth1084]

thats if u can pull scales.

My red scale drop rate is about 1 in every 60 runs. no joke. I've pulled more +4 tomes than red scales (which isnt alot either).
Ditto. :(

Think I'll have pulled enough scales to make an armor by 2014 or so.

[valerieanne]

I personally feel Scrolls should be in the chest loot tables like all the other components.

They have a chance to fall in the chest IN ADDITION to how they fall now.

Problem solved.

SO you have a tiny tiny chance to get one as a drop randomly falling into your inventory.

And everyone has the chance to get one in chest, or a shard or a seal.

This way rogues who can stealth dungeons have an actual chance to pull something useful.

They (Turbine) don't want that. As it is, they've managed to achieve 2 things:

a) Turn DDO into WoW. You simply camp an area(instance) and kill mobs over and over hoping something drops.
b) Dungeon Alert. Since people want a chance at scrolls, nobody zergs ahead anymore. Think of it this way, if the entire game is epic, they don't even need to implement Dungeon Alert anymore :)

I kinda got bored of the change in nature of the game, from being a unique game where there are multiple ways to get a reward(stealth, zerg, skill etc) to the boring Mass Hold+slow beating of mobs to death.

Ears

[MrkGrismer]

Oh yeah I think you are right, what I meant to say is:

Why are you all complaining, the devs said that epics are Vast and Mysterious

Much better :D

[The_Phenx]

They (Turbine) don't want that. As it is, they've managed to achieve 2 things:

a) Turn DDO into WoW. You simply camp an area(instance) and kill mobs over and over hoping something drops.
b) Dungeon Alert. Since people want a chance at scrolls, nobody zergs ahead anymore. Think of it this way, if the entire game is epic, they don't even need to implement Dungeon Alert anymore :)

I kinda got bored of the change in nature of the game, from being a unique game where there are multiple ways to get a reward(stealth, zerg, skill etc) to the boring Mass Hold+slow beating of mobs to death.

Ears


Well a good rogue can stealth epic claw at least.

[dkyle]

Well a good rogue can stealth epic claw at least.

And how many scrolls would said Rogue get doing it that way? 1 in 100 runs from Sobrien?

Which is the point: playing smart and avoiding fighting is penalized because you need to fight to get scrolls.