healers vs CC/killing and TRs vs new

[redoubt]

Hello adventurers!

There are a couple things I'd like to discuss. (If you have been around a while, this is probably not the thread for you, but your experience may be valuable additions.)

1. TRs vs non-TRs

FACT:
non-TR requires 1.9mil xp
first TR requires 3.2mil xp
2nd TR requires 4.38mil xp
I don't know how to spell khobald.

ASSUMPTIONS (these should be true, but not guaranteed):
TRs have more money and equipment
TRs know the quests better
TRs will run quests n/h/e for the first time xp bonus (n/h/e = normal then hard then elite.)
TRs will often run quests at exactly one level above the quest level for maximum xp per minute.

Example scenario of how not knowing these things can go wrong:
WW on normal is the LFM. Level 2 cleric, a level 3 cleric, rogue, fighter and barb (melees are 3 and 4). I join on my level 4 TR2 cleric.

I on my cleric join thinking: Cool, theres a couple of us to go around in case the melees are not up to standard, plus I can CC and melee some.

The dwarven fighter and barb are thinking: yay! I have a babysitter.

Here comes the question: "how about doing it on hard? We have three healers!" The reply from the leader (2 cleric) and myself is "normal please." So we go in on normal. Noone dies and we complete easily in 13 minutes. This is about twice as long as it should take, but entering a pug and not seeing other TRs in the group, I expected it as was willing to go a little slower to meet some new folks.

Now there are a couple funny things that happened.
1. The dwarf barb at one point tells me to stay with him and heal him because he is "about to go killing!". At this point in the quest I have 15 to his 8 kills and we are going down into the first lever room with the khobalds on the raised platforms. So I "lol" in party chat and follow him. He skips the lever and runs around back and into the acid trap. I pull the lever, hop onto the lower three platforms, kill the khobolds, loot the chest, throw a heal on him and leave the room. In voice i stat, "lever is pulled, lets go." When I look back he is standing on the top ranging with 2 more khobalds. I lol again.

2. At the end the fighter has 30 kills, I have 24 and the barb has 12-14. The barb exclaims, "yes, dwarf power" and once again I lol. Then he opens part two on hard. I go in and see its on hard and excuse myself as politely as I can. So does the party leader.

The lessons:
1. Its not that doing a harder difficulty is to hard. Its about maximizing xp. If the LFM is for normal and people request to not change it, don't change it. Thank you.

2. If an cleric with 8 starting str is out meleeing your barbarian while keeping you healed, don't brag.


Healing vs CC and killing

Yes, clerics and Favored souls (FvS) can heal. We do it very well in fact. Also, when we join a pug, most of us are willing to heal.

What I'd like to share is that CC and helping kill can be more effective than standing back and being a healbot. The healers can have very high casting stats and can do very effective CC (crowd control.) For example, I know my cleric already has 26 wisdom at level 4. 18 start, 4 owls wisdom, 1 tome, 1 enhancement, 1 level up, 1 ship buff.

Some weapons at a healers disposal include:
1. command. This puts the mob on its face or but for several seconds and it cannot hurt you during this time. If you didn't trip it, it was the healer PREVENTING damage.

2. hold person. If you see little blue rings around a mob and there is no arcane caster in the group... those awesome crit numbers you are getting are coming from the "healer" who is, again, preventing damage and speeding up the killing.

3. sound burst. Did you see 8 khobalds suddenly slump over and stop moving? That is sound burst! It is an area of effect (AOE) spell that does sonic damage and stuns mobs. Thank your local healer (bards included.)

4. swords/shield/repeaters etc. Healers also fight. (See the above story about the cleric getting lots of kills. How horible a statistic the kill count is can be debated elsewhere.)

Funny story (maybe not funny, but...)
So in my aforementioned group, there were three clerics. The barb, again, says sweet we'll have too much healing. So I reply, "I can CC and help kill." What I hear back is, "no, heal". I CC anyway and the quest goes well.

Lesson:
If the healer is good, they can CC and prevent damage and help kill and the quest will go better and faster. (This is even more true if there is not a CC arcane in the group.) (Melee spec'd cleric/FvS are a whole other animal and bring different talents to the table.)

Final lesson:
Talk to the people in your group and listen to what they say. They usually know what they are good at.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

What's the difference between running the 4 parts n/n/n/n this time and h/h/h/h next time vs n/n/h/h and h/h/n/n?

Couldn't you have just finished it with them and then changed it up on your next run to get your 1st time bonuses? Do you really need a group to do that second run, since a group may not like the difficulty downgrade?

That is not to say that I don't agree with the sentiment. Advertised groups should be run as advertised. I just don't think you had to drop to get your xp as you need.

[hecate355]

there is no difference in what order you milk quest empty, i often leave normal for myself and do harder with group, unless normal is already done to death of course.

generally yea i get annoyed as well when lfm i joined suddenly turns into something quite opposite. there are very laconic buttons to present exact intentions of lfm, pair it with comment in text box and stick to it.

[NinjaNeed]

I am f2p and just TR'd my first toon around the 10th Jan. He is now level 16 again and tbh there has not been any grind at all. I done all of Korthos on n/h/e then most of Harbour straight on elite, repeat in Marketplace and other lowbie zones.

Up to level 12 there is so much content in the game that rinsing xp on quests is NOT needed. However, this assumes a couple of things...

1. You have access to the whole game (I have all packs purchased).
2. You have the gear to power through quests at level (or 1 or 2 levels above quest level)
3. You do not skip content.
4, You are not trying to power level.

3. means that just because you have enough xp to level does not mean you should level! I stayed at level 4 until I was about 100xp away from having enough xp to ding level 6! Same at 5, 6, 7 etc until level 10 when I hit level 11 then went to sands for 10 slayers to ding to 12 asap.

4. Obviously the fastest way to level is not to complete all quests but to complete those that give the best xp/minute. I prefer to enjoy the game and take my time (hence lv16 tr-1 in 6 weeks or so and not lv20-tr1 in 2 weeks). But my method provides LOADS of experience and LOADS of favor (3000+ at level 16 with only a few quests skipped).


As for the "why not do hard then normal" question, I think this is due to the quest journal only saying the hardest difficulty you have completed the quest on. If you have completed a quest on hard there is no way to know if you have done it on normal or not without zoning in and finding out (or remembering ofc).

[jwdaniels]

The difference is that you can run it three times without a penalty to exp for running it multiple times, and after that there is a progressively larger penalty for each run. This penalty is waived, however, on the first time through on a given difficulty. For example, if you run a single quest 5 times N/N/N/H/E you get full exp each run, if you run it N/H/E/N/N then the 4th and 5th time you are running it there will be an exp penalty for repeating the quest.

[urusaikuneyaro]

Kill count means nothing.

Yesterday a tr on his third life was bragging in general chat on how his sorcerer does more dps with a quarterstaff then a barbarian with a greataxe. His proof: he had more kills in delera...

Kill count means nothing.

[Mudcnd]

Kill count means nothing.

Yesterday a tr on his third life was bragging in general chat on how his sorcerer does more dps with a quarterstaff then a barbarian with a greataxe. His proof: he had more kills in delera...

Kill count means nothing.

Ya im sure all the sorc kills came from him beating stuff with a stick /rollseyes!

And yeah if listed normal , and some puglet opened hard on the 1st run on a TRx2, I would have dropped as well!

[redoubt]

Kill count means nothing.

I said that already. ;)

And I've just deleted a bunch of stuff I was going to say in response, but its not relevant to this thread.

So, how does "kill count means nothing" help new folks who make the kinds of mistakes I've discussed?

The basic premise would be that the kill count is based off of whoever does the last point of damage, not who does the most. It also completely ignores anything else you to to assist the party. i.e. heal, CC, trip, stun, disable...

[redoubt]

To add to the n/h/e or n/n/n/h/e topic.

No, you don't have to run all the quests that way to level a TR2. Its even less important at low levels. (As others have said.)

However, person who are speed running are going to be skipping much of the content and only running certain quests. (I think I said this in the OP.) This means they will run only a few quests and do them repeatedly. (No, its not my normal method, I usually run all the quests n.h.e unless its one i don't like so much, then just elite.)

Yes, you can do h/h/h/e/n and get all the first time bonuses and never a penalty.

However! If you are banking levels and trying to not get an overlevel penalty you will often see people running a level 3 quest on normal at level 4. Then running that quest on hard at level 5 and elite at level 6. This is the most xp per time as you are always as overpowered as possible with no penalty. (Note, I'm not saying the game should be this way, just saying how it is.)

I'm also not advocating a playstyle. I'm just hoping to help new players understand what probably seems crazy when they see the vets and TRs playing.