Best way to get accepted as a healer?

[SetofBs]

I PUG a lot and have recently rolled up a human Spellsinger. He's lvl 8 now, spec'd for healing (song magic III, spell point item, superior ardor clickies, cure mod and cure serious, maximize, starting to work on the heal crit line of enhancements, max'd charisma).

I assume he's probably better at healing than most non radiant servant clerics at his level. He also has so many spell points that if a cleric is in the group doing the healing its hard to use them all. I mean, he can hold his own in melee with his greataxe, but he doesn't really shine unless he can make significant healing contributions to the group along with some CC and melee.

Still, if I send a tell (explaining I am heal spec'd) to a PUG leader looking for a healer, I often get "we need a straight up cleric". Once it was for an at and above lvl group running Gwylan's on normal I think. So that time I snapped back "if your group sucks that bad that I can't heal you through then good luck". He wasn't too happy, but really its Gwylan's...there's a shrine every 2 steps.

Is the solution just to lead your own PUGs all the time? Or are there tricks to getting people to accept you in the role you should be taking?

[Daerius of the Blessed Blades]

Great question...harder answer.

I think leading your own pick up groups may be your best option. In my guild, we levelled our last set of TRs without a cleric at all. You can ABSOLUTELY heal with a bard, but that prejudice is going to be hard to break.

Start groups, build a decent friends list, or join a solid guild and begin breaking down those stereotypes. Many players may not believe you because they have become victims of the cookie cutter party mentality, but when you show them.... well, that's a different story. Good news is that if the party gets so banged up and lacks self heals to the point that they demand a dedicated pure healer to complete a quest, then you probably were better off skipping that group anyway.

Good luck, and don't give up!

[Broldin]

Start your own groups. Not just to fulfill the role you want on your healer, but all of the time. Teaches you to lead a group, allows you to designate your role, gives you the power to boot people that say "give me like 10 minutes to get ship buffs for WW." It also seems to make it easier to build a friends list of capable players. You know the group has a decent leader, if not you have other issues, so you can get a good idea of other's abilities as players, communicators, etc.

[voodoogroves]

Once you know the content, start with posting your own groups and taking whoever. A rogue to get the traps for XP in Gwynlans isn't bad, but neither is 5 fighters. Or 5 clerics.

The real answer is ... more people need to play good bards. Once that happens, we'll see more people assuming bards can heal, etc.

[Samadhi]

I love people that express such ignorance of the game. Makes it easier to know who the horrible fools are and group with the more enlightened.

[Kaeldur]

The stereotypes suck... Recently I met a high level healing bard and would bring her along as much as I could because she was a nice person and a good healer, much better than a huge portion of "healers" that I've seen. I myself am a FvS, but having a spellsinger allowed me not only to focus almost entirely on offensive casting, but better yet improved my sp pool (by regens). I'd have a good spellsinger heal my group anytime!

I think you should just keep trying, eventually you'll meet players who are more open-minded about builds and they'll realize your awesomeness :) Mostly if you're good you'll eventually get your name recognized and soon enough you'll have a hard time having some peace and quiet ^^

[Shade]

Link your stack of 100 heal scroll in your tell!

or at lvl8, your cure serious wand!

lol, in all seriousness.. If the group leader can't take your word at face value, there's not much you can do.

It's just a fact of the game that most Bards don't heavily spec for healing since it's a very versatile class.

And while they certainly can, there lower SP means they almost always have to rely on a wands/scrolls, and some group leaders juts dont understand the power of thoses backed with bard scroll mastery.

Also noticed you did not mention the scroll mastery enhancement in your list. Might wanna take that, as it starts to become especially important post level10.. And pretty much required if you run at-lvl hard/elite quests.

Keep in mind bards are the masters of scrolls/wands for a reason.. They get 25% base and 15% per rank, while other classes get only 10% per rank, so use that to your advantage.

[Darkrok]

PuG's are PuG's. You get what you get. It even happens at the cap. If the groups you want aren't up the only thing you can do is list your own or join a like-minded guild.

People that are more knowledgeable understand that bards are perfectly fine - maybe even better - in certain circumstances. And running Gwylan's on normal at level? You heal that with cure serious pots/wands, not with a dedicated healer. Having a bard healer there would be cheating. :)

[hermespan]

I PUG a lot and have recently rolled up a human Spellsinger. He's lvl 8 now, spec'd for healing (song magic III, spell point item, superior ardor clickies, cure mod and cure serious, maximize, starting to work on the heal crit line of enhancements, max'd charisma).

I assume he's probably better at healing than most non radiant servant clerics at his level. He also has so many spell points that if a cleric is in the group doing the healing its hard to use them all. I mean, he can hold his own in melee with his greataxe, but he doesn't really shine unless he can make significant healing contributions to the group along with some CC and melee.

Still, if I send a tell (explaining I am heal spec'd) to a PUG leader looking for a healer, I often get "we need a straight up cleric". Once it was for an at and above lvl group running Gwylan's on normal I think. So that time I snapped back "if your group sucks that bad that I can't heal you through then good luck". He wasn't too happy, but really its Gwylan's...there's a shrine every 2 steps.

Is the solution just to lead your own PUGs all the time? Or are there tricks to getting people to accept you in the role you should be taking?

I think your best solution is to put BYOH in your group LFM comments and lead your own groups. In quest spot heal to keep people from dying.

[NaturalHazard]

Often a lot of groups I apply to already have a cleric/ favoured soul, I like it when the cleric or favoured soul goes down and I take over the healing and people get supprised, "I didnt know bards could do that!!!!"

[Lorz]

Often a lot of groups I apply to already have a cleric/ favoured soul, I like it when the cleric or favoured soul goes down and I take over the healing and people get supprised, "I didnt know bards could do that!!!!"

There is nothing i enjoy quite as much as rezing the cleric. (Well ok rezing the cleric AGAIN is probably the best)

I hear you get better loot if the healer is sacrifice.....er dies.

[elujin]

well played clerics will be better then well played healing bard
that beeing said there is no reason why you can't heal people won't truest you that easy
but you can make your own pugs pick a easy q first and if the group gets going you can heal in harder ones when the party is convinced

just woundering why not a virtuoso seems like a good one to be healing specked bard you can use healing song and cc with songs wasting no mana on cc spells

sp song is nice and prob saves mors sp in raw healing but you can't overheal with hp song

[Tuney]

Virts are better for groups that take little damage and don't want to use much outside of songs/SP for healing. Spellsingers will be better at using the wands and higher level scrolls (Sooner at no fail) but to get the most out of that SP regen/discount as a personal healer need to spend AP into song magic and possable the crit lines too, I would invest more into Wand/scroll mastery for the big single heals and use masses only when group damage is taken.

Even at level 20 , you eather form your own group or get a rep as a great healer.

[NaturalHazard]

I PUG a lot and have recently rolled up a human Spellsinger. He's lvl 8 now, spec'd for healing (song magic III, spell point item, superior ardor clickies, cure mod and cure serious, maximize, starting to work on the heal crit line of enhancements, max'd charisma).

I assume he's probably better at healing than most non radiant servant clerics at his level. He also has so many spell points that if a cleric is in the group doing the healing its hard to use them all. I mean, he can hold his own in melee with his greataxe, but he doesn't really shine unless he can make significant healing contributions to the group along with some CC and melee.

Still, if I send a tell (explaining I am heal spec'd) to a PUG leader looking for a healer, I often get "we need a straight up cleric". Once it was for an at and above lvl group running Gwylan's on normal I think. So that time I snapped back "if your group sucks that bad that I can't heal you through then good luck". He wasn't too happy, but really its Gwylan's...there's a shrine every 2 steps.

Is the solution just to lead your own PUGs all the time? Or are there tricks to getting people to accept you in the role you should be taking?

wait a minute your level *? haha a wand is more than enough for a lot of questing at that level :P haha I used my sp bar and wands and often i keep the party going a lot better than a lot of clerics at that level. well a lot of noob clerics who over heal then are useless when their sp bar is gone.

[LordRavnos]

most people are too stupid to break from the cookie cutter build mentality as stated, or they come from games where your class sets what you can do period and since they never see Bards main heal they believe its not possible. But I have seen Bards solo heal shroud before, and my bard is a healer too, so I know its possible. Just make your own group til you get enough people who know you and you will be good

[SisAmethyst]

...

Also noticed you did not mention the scroll mastery enhancement in your list. Might wanna take that, as it starts to become especially important post level10.. And pretty much required if you run at-lvl hard/elite quests.

Keep in mind bards are the masters of scrolls/wands for a reason.. They get 25% base and 15% per rank, while other classes get only 10% per rank, so use that to your advantage.

... while I usually take the scroll/wand enhancement automatically, I never really looked up that detail, thx for bringing this up ;)

/+1

[Irinis]

Best way to be accepted as healing Bard is to run with good melees who kill stuff fast enough that a full cleric/fvs mana bar isn't needed.

Poor melees will blame you for the wipe otherwise. :(

[SetofBs]

Thanks for the thoughts so far.

Re: Wand and scroll mastery, I do have the first rank in that so far. I plan on going to 3 or 4 in that eventually.

[sirgog]

Once you know the content, start with posting your own groups and taking whoever. A rogue to get the traps for XP in Gwynlans isn't bad, but neither is 5 fighters. Or 5 clerics.

The real answer is ... more people need to play good bards. Once that happens, we'll see more people assuming bards can heal, etc.

Bards can put out about half to two-thirds of the healing a Cleric can at that level.

Which is convenient, as they only need to put out about that much due to being able to cast Displacement.

[Alintalkin]

The best way to break people out of the mind frame of the cookie cutter builds is to show them that DDO is more then cookie cutter and awe them. A bard can definitely solo heal. For example: leohand's chronicles (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=295873) show that a bard can solo heal epics with no sp pot usage and abundant sp left over. Given time and more bards stepping up to the plate of solo healing people's perceptions of bard's capabilities will change. Start your own groups and show them that you can heal. Redefine people's perceptions of the game, they need to wake up to reality someday...

[Doxmaster]

I had similar problems with my healspecced spellsinger, Doxylicious. Fortunately, I capped that bard running with friends and I am slowly becoming a raid favorite.

"Oh, its that bard! Umm...Doxy! Ya, Ok, we just need more DPS. We have 2 healers now."

I hate to have to tell you this, but you WONT be accepted by everyone as a main/solo healer for a long time. TRs will occasionally ask you if you can cover the buffs/healing role and will fall in love with you when you do that AND hold your own in melee, but otherwise you'll have to fight an uphill battle every time you get accepted into a group.

That said, you will quickly becomes known as a healing bard, if you do your job well, among niche circles. Guilds that communicate well will very, very quickly start adding your toons to their friend lists (The 'Always group with' list, not the 'do not group' list) and invite you on guild-exclusive runs and I cant tell you how many times I hear "Man, if you ever need a new guild...we arent really accepting anyone, but I'll force my leader to bring you in if you want to join..." from people who were strangers earlier that day. Yes, everyone gets random guild invites; guild invites because you just solo rebuilt a quest/raid after a major wipe are still awesome though.

----

Protips-
The wand/scroll enhancement is worth every single ap. Get the full line. Also get the full healing enhancement line.

Maximize crit chance and either make a Healing lore greensteel item or pick up either arcane lore or healing lore (The club from invaders token trade in has healing lore, greenblade has arcane lore but it is found in ADQ a P2P raid). With barely any effort, you now have 18% chance to crit.

Maximize haggle. Being able to buy a stack of 100 heal scrolls using the cash from a quest's trashloot is a sweet, sweet thing.

Try to boost your song duration as much as possible. Spellsong vigor and spellsong trance are amazing when you get them, but having both last 4 or more minutes is beautiful.

Consider picking up Empower Healing. Once you get it, you can typically leave it on forever since it only increases the cost of your cure spells by 10 sp. Maximize will still be needed for moments where everyone is taking huge amounts of damage, of course.

Get quicken. If you are healing, you will need this.

Carry Repair wands and reconstruct scrolls. You will very quickly get the ability to no-fail UMD them and it really lightens the load when you are healing warforged. I cant tell you how many wf I've run with only get 50% incoming heals, because I typically smack them with repair critical or reconstruct right after casting a mass cure.

[sigtrent]

While the guy running the pug was kind of stupid, your response isn't the sort that is likely to change his mind.

I think it would be better to challenge him to try you out. "Give me a shot and I'll show you I can heal as good as any cleric." I know I'd sign that person up, they are confident and want to play well.

A bard isn't really a healing match for a cleric, but there is no reason they can't be good enough to get the job done with some item backup. Even my hard piking haggle mule bard has saved a pug or too from utter failure due to inherent bard versatility. (Throw a ball, blur yourself, grab the stones, fascinate, start rezing, throw a heal, drop a hold, cut down monsters etc.. until the party is back in action.) Then its back to singing songs and collecting treasure while they do that hard adventuring stuff. :P

[KillEveryone]

I don't think there are enough people that have run with bards capable of healing a group.

I've changed a few minds when I was running Shroud with Quickymart. People didn't know that a bard is competent at healing a raid party.

The people that have been around before the Heal Spell worked on more than six people understand. They ran raids that the healers were cycling mass cure minor and moderate because those were the best bang with potentcy. They understand that you DON'T need the mass heal spell because it didn't heal the whole group(unless it was a six person party) before so it wasn't used.

Now groups think that you need that mass heal spell and don't understand that it isn't necessary because they never ran with anything different.

Get used to the content you want to run and post your own LFM. Be the healer in a raid. Change their minds and make them understand through demonstration. Even if you do this though, there will still be people that are incapable of learning. Just don't run with them after you figure that part out.

[Aashrym]

I PUG a lot and have recently rolled up a human Spellsinger. He's lvl 8 now, spec'd for healing (song magic III, spell point item, superior ardor clickies, cure mod and cure serious, maximize, starting to work on the heal crit line of enhancements, max'd charisma).

I assume he's probably better at healing than most non radiant servant clerics at his level. He also has so many spell points that if a cleric is in the group doing the healing its hard to use them all. I mean, he can hold his own in melee with his greataxe, but he doesn't really shine unless he can make significant healing contributions to the group along with some CC and melee.

Still, if I send a tell (explaining I am heal spec'd) to a PUG leader looking for a healer, I often get "we need a straight up cleric". Once it was for an at and above lvl group running Gwylan's on normal I think. So that time I snapped back "if your group sucks that bad that I can't heal you through then good luck". He wasn't too happy, but really its Gwylan's...there's a shrine every 2 steps.

Is the solution just to lead your own PUGs all the time? Or are there tricks to getting people to accept you in the role you should be taking?

I probably would have offered to prove the pug leader wrong instead of telling him his group must suck. ;)

I'm curious if those groups have bards already in them. Adding healing and cutting back on the need for healing through IC, haste, and displacement is pretty handy.

You really should invest AP in wand and scroll mastery if you want to heal and do it early. I don't think you will ever see disagreement on the value of that line of enhancements.

Another thing to point out is the 100 SP bonus closes the gap in SP between bard and cleric fast. At 8th level it's all of about 10ish SP or so. It's very close. 10% discount looks good at that point.

[SetofBs]

I probably would have offered to prove the pug leader wrong instead of telling him his group must suck. ;)

I'm curious if those groups have bards already in them. Adding healing and cutting back on the need for healing through IC, haste, and displacement is pretty handy.



Yeah, should have been more diplomatic...was just frustrated at the time. I don't recall many groups having a bard in them already.

Basically in groups that already have a healer, I save the healer's ass when he can't keep up in bad groups and keep everyone in haste and rage.

[boomeranky]

As others have mentioned, many ppl especially at lower levels do not recognise that classes other than cleric and favored souls can heal.

Up to level 10 you can heal 99% in all quests solely with wands, so theoretically even a rogue, ranger or paladin could solo heal most of them...

Bards are the third stongest class for healing in ddo behind clerics and favored souls, and you will find out that the higher you get in levels more and more people recognise this fact.

My capped warchanter is perfectly capable of solo healing most higher level quests and many epics (if groups take crowed control seriously that is ;) ), so a spellsinger is like a cleric/fvs in terms of healing.

I wouldn't put up my warchanter as a solo raid healer, but i was part of shrouds already where a single bard solo healed and it worked better than many groups with two clerics/fvs...

Just follow the tip to open up your own groups if you happen to have a day with people not willing to take you as the healer and be done with.

[SetofBs]

Quick update: Got accepted as healer in an "at level" (lvls 5-8) Chronoscope yesterday. Only heals were me and a lvl 6 FVS. It was actually pretty fun. I never realized how much damage a group can take in a raid, having only played melee classes before. Unfortunately our group was a bit sub par, as you might expect for a low level raid. We had one wasted spot on a little kid that was beyond useless, as well as too many rogues and not enough melee classes. One or two of our better melees were lvl 5 as well, which didn't help.

Long story short, we got through everything (although Blood Plate was tight) and then wiped multiple times at the boss fight. Nobody blamed me, which was nice...IMO we just didn't have the DPS to get it done. In the end, a few people switched to higher level toons and we got our loot that way.

I think I might start my own at level Chrono in a few days and see if I can get a better group together.

[Wurmheart]

it'll be hard for a bard to be acknowledged as a healer for several reasons,

A, clerics/fsv are more stable healers, with quicken their main heals cant get interupted, as well as usually having more options to heal (heal spell, mass heal spell, rad server burst & aura for cleric and manaless mini heal spell of fsv)
combined with way more mana they'd be more likely to save a rather bad party.

B, the bard class is rather ambiguous, if you get a bard you know theyll buff/sing but dont know their other roles till you ask, there's tanking bards, melee bards, cc bards, healer bards and most even mix some of these extra roles.
to shorten this up, you cant expect every bard to heal, cc or melee they're all differently specced while fsv/cleric are almost always specced for healing.

C, not everyone is specced as they say, i've had plenty of fsv's join a party saying they were healers, yet they only heal them self (or nobody at all)...


not having mass heal doesn't hurt bards 1 bit tbh, some poorly build wf barbarians might die without it, but that is their own fault and you wont have to worry about mistiming mass heals :P

played as a cleric myself and was quite skeptic about bard healers, but they're alright tough i would never use them as epic raid main healers (as 3rd healer sure, just not as 1st or 2nd)

[Aashrym]

it'll be hard for a bard to be acknowledged as a healer for several reasons,

A, clerics/fsv are more stable healers, with quicken their main heals cant get interupted, as well as usually having more options to heal (heal spell, mass heal spell, rad server burst & aura for cleric and manaless mini heal spell of fsv)
combined with way more mana they'd be more likely to save a rather bad party.

B, the bard class is rather ambiguous, if you get a bard you know theyll buff/sing but dont know their other roles till you ask, there's tanking bards, melee bards, cc bards, healer bards and most even mix some of these extra roles.
to shorten this up, you cant expect every bard to heal, cc or melee they're all differently specced while fsv/cleric are almost always specced for healing.

C, not everyone is specced as they say, i've had plenty of fsv's join a party saying they were healers, yet they only heal them self (or nobody at all)...


not having mass heal doesn't hurt bards 1 bit tbh, some poorly build wf barbarians might die without it, but that is their own fault and you wont have to worry about mistiming mass heals :P

played as a cleric myself and was quite skeptic about bard healers, but they're alright tough i would never use them as epic raid main healers (as 3rd healer sure, just not as 1st or 2nd)

I disagree that Clerics and FvS's are more stable healers. I do agree that bard versatility can cause concern in accepting a bard as a main healer.

Healing bards take quicken just like FvS and Clerics do. ;)

It's the other perks for bard that make them a premium healing choice. RS burst and aura are nice. FvS free healing can be useful. That's compared to IC, displacement, haste, and fascinate. Item healing is done by all three classes and bards are better at it.

Posts like yours can perpetuate the myth bards can't be primary heals when they actually can. It's the bards who choose not to do that which cause the hesitancy in taking a bard as a healer.

[Jaid314]

Quick update: Got accepted as healer in an "at level" (lvls 5-8) Chronoscope yesterday. Only heals were me and a lvl 6 FVS. It was actually pretty fun. I never realized how much damage a group can take in a raid, having only played melee classes before. Unfortunately our group was a bit sub par, as you might expect for a low level raid. We had one wasted spot on a little kid that was beyond useless, as well as too many rogues and not enough melee classes. One or two of our better melees were lvl 5 as well, which didn't help.

Long story short, we got through everything (although Blood Plate was tight) and then wiped multiple times at the boss fight. Nobody blamed me, which was nice...IMO we just didn't have the DPS to get it done. In the end, a few people switched to higher level toons and we got our loot that way.

I think I might start my own at level Chrono in a few days and see if I can get a better group together.

if you had "too many rogues" and "not enough melee classes" and also "didn't have the DPS", then the actual problem is that the raid was full of idiots, not that it was full of rogues.

rogues are great dps. even the finesse builds. the only reason for the rogues to have not been providing solid dps is because they're badly built, not because rogues are incapable of dealing damage.

[SetofBs]

if you had "too many rogues" and "not enough melee classes" and also "didn't have the DPS", then the actual problem is that the raid was full of idiots, not that it was full of rogues.

rogues are great dps. even the finesse builds. the only reason for the rogues to have not been providing solid dps is because they're badly built, not because rogues are incapable of dealing damage.

I understand what you are saying but at low levels not many rogues are good at DPS (in my experience). The average fighter or barb is going to do much better. Many low level toons are newer players and most newer players build rogues to be sneaky and do traps and all that. Not many understand that rogues can be the top DPS in the game (situationally) and thus don't build towards that goal. Plus, I think fighters are more likely to have top notch damage dealing weapons for their level, since that is their bread and butter.

[maddmatt70]

Unfortunately and this is throughout the entire game of ddo; bards are not often accpted as healers. Your best option will be either start your own groups or run with a guildy who knows what you can do and puts up the star.

I reward people who look for bards as well as cleric/fvs for their healing spot. Shadowsteel, a barbarian, who posts on these forums often will throw up an lfm for the 6th spot in epic runs which states bard, fvs, or cleric those I join immediately. People that think about the nature of things should be rewarded. Changing the culture of the game is a tall order, but worth the effort. There are four facts: 1. bard can solo heal anything, 2. Bards can heal as well cleric/fvs because they do not have heal as much due to the extra dps they provide, 3. quests take less time with a bard healing, 4. Good healers are good healers and this goes beyond bards if a good healer says they can do the job grab em..

You are going to experience prejudice throughout your play as a healing bard. Just rise above it.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

I PUG a lot and have recently rolled up a human Spellsinger. He's lvl 8 now, spec'd for healing (song magic III, spell point item, superior ardor clickies, cure mod and cure serious, maximize, starting to work on the heal crit line of enhancements, max'd charisma).

I assume he's probably better at healing than most non radiant servant clerics at his level. He also has so many spell points that if a cleric is in the group doing the healing its hard to use them all. I mean, he can hold his own in melee with his greataxe, but he doesn't really shine unless he can make significant healing contributions to the group along with some CC and melee.

Still, if I send a tell (explaining I am heal spec'd) to a PUG leader looking for a healer, I often get "we need a straight up cleric". Once it was for an at and above lvl group running Gwylan's on normal I think. So that time I snapped back "if your group sucks that bad that I can't heal you through then good luck". He wasn't too happy, but really its Gwylan's...there's a shrine every 2 steps.

Is the solution just to lead your own PUGs all the time? Or are there tricks to getting people to accept you in the role you should be taking?


Yeah, seriously. A heal-focused character that's ALSO a bard? Unless you're going into some major raid situation, that's two for the price of one. You have spellsinger, but that doesnt mean you're not also buffing melee damage. Sure, hanging out near a Radiant Servant is easy mode, but having a person who's BUILT their character to heal, how is that not awesome?

There's a lot of discussion about "My Cleric is Not a Healbot, kthx jackwagon!" and here you have this gem, and you cast it back into the water because it doesn't bring out your pretty eyes? feh to that, +1 for being so useful.

[kernal42]

How to be accepted as a healer:

At the hardest part of the quest/raid, use Kormor's to dance the "real" healer. Then keep the party healed up and happy, thus demonstrating your ability fill the healer's role.

-Kernal

[Jaid314]

How to be accepted as a healer:

At the hardest part of the quest/raid, use Kormor's to dance the "real" healer. Then keep the party healed up and happy, thus demonstrating your ability fill the healer's role.

-Kernal

bonus points for grease? :D

[Spangled]

Often a lot of groups I apply to already have a cleric/ favoured soul, I like it when the cleric or favoured soul goes down and I take over the healing and people get supprised, "I didnt know bards could do that!!!!"

Lol. How things change. Once upon a time when level 10 was the cap people only thought of bards as second rate healers...

[learst]

Your best chance to be accepted as a healer?

Lock out all the cleric/fvs at your level range. When they're desperate for a healer and couldn't find anyone else, they'll take you.

/sarcasm.

But I'm serious about the desperation though. I used to PUGged a spellsinger bard too, and most often I'm accepted into the group as a buffbot and charmer. Until at higher levels when people get sick of charming and scolded me for using it. Then I'm back to buffbot. I throw in the occasional heal or so, but often find that it's useless as the healer would also does so, causing overhealing. Therefore I only tend to heal when the healer is out of mana, or in between fights topping off the folks.

At higher levels, things might start getting better. I was accepted into a Rainbow in the Dark quest, and because there was no healer in the group, everyone was very careful and played very cooperatively. So in a quest with me being the sole healer, I actually didn't have to heal a lot. ;)

[weyoun]

I would just pike if I were you.

Love,
Beanskin
The original piking bard

[LordPiglet]

Had a bard solo heal lolz reavers the other day. There was a bit of discussion about, and it didn't hurt when I said I'd tank hate/ac tank on my exploiter. Was definitely interesting.

Fact of the matter is most groups under 12 don't even need a healer. They need to play better, and smarter but keep sticking with the healer crutch. First healing spell on my fvs was cure light mass. I used wands and pots until then. Granted I didn't run a single pug and only have pugged VON outside of friends. However, before my first Von 6 i made sure to have some clear communication with the leader about my capabilities, etc.

[Wurmheart]

I disagree that Clerics and FvS's are more stable healers. I do agree that bard versatility can cause concern in accepting a bard as a main healer.

Healing bards take quicken just like FvS and Clerics do. ;)

It's the other perks for bard that make them a premium healing choice. RS burst and aura are nice. FvS free healing can be useful. That's compared to IC, displacement, haste, and fascinate. Item healing is done by all three classes and bards are better at it.

Posts like yours can perpetuate the myth bards can't be primary heals when they actually can. It's the bards who choose not to do that which cause the hesitancy in taking a bard as a healer.

i'm not saying bards dont have advantages, but in terms of healing there are some aspects i would consider more beneficial for the cleric/fsv side

imho such stability would include:
-being able to cast non interuptable resses
-healing for less sp (empower/empower healing sp reductions)
-bigger sp pool for longer fights
-having several spells/scrolls for same function incase others are on cooldown, so we dont have to trow a cure mass for just 1 person on low hp.

Bard however is way stronger in prevention, fascinate/blur/displacement and improving dps with songs, haste, rage etc.

yet a cleric's/fsv's also have a arsenal of usefull spells to prevent, greater command, cometfall, symbol of persuasion and holy aura come to mind, tough they'd have to specialyse as caster for most to work (aside of holy aura).

and song/buffing isnt really a main role for bards, i meant that most bards can and will fit songs and buffs into their build, regardless of other roles.

and lastly are you ****ing kidding me?
i know a party would be problems if the bard said, "sure i can heal this fine" without even knowing the others.
i'd recommend the bard healers to try and test your own limits and be forthcoming it when you arent sure, you'll only end up shunning yourself if you say you can heal and can't prove it afterwards.

[Aashrym]

i'm not saying bards dont have advantages, but in terms of healing there are some aspects i would consider more beneficial for the cleric/fsv side

imho such stability would include:
-being able to cast non interuptable resses
-healing for less sp (empower/empower healing sp reductions)
-bigger sp pool for longer fights
-having several spells/scrolls for same function incase others are on cooldown, so we dont have to trow a cure mass for just 1 person on low hp.

Bard however is way stronger in prevention, fascinate/blur/displacement and improving dps with songs, haste, rage etc.

yet a cleric's/fsv's also have a arsenal of usefull spells to prevent, greater command, cometfall, symbol of persuasion and holy aura come to mind, tough they'd have to specialyse as caster for most to work (aside of holy aura).

and song/buffing isnt really a main role for bards, i meant that most bards can and will fit songs and buffs into their build, regardless of other roles.

and lastly are you ****ing kidding me?
i know a party would be problems if the bard said, "sure i can heal this fine" without even knowing the others.
i'd recommend the bard healers to try and test your own limits and be forthcoming it when you arent sure, you'll only end up shunning yourself if you say you can heal and can't prove it afterwards.

At the level listed in the OP a spellsinger doesn't have an SP disadvantage because of the bonus SP. ;)

It's not until later on we see the SP difference and there is a difference particularly at 11th level for a cleric in SP. At 12th level the bard gets another 100 SP boost and catches back up to a very similar SP pool. It's comparative to that point and then vigor is worth a lot of SP. SP isn't really a concern for a spellsinger if you want to directly compare to the cleric. All that time the bard still has bigger item bonuses and wand healing is effective.

I would also like to point out that having more SP for longer fights is not so relevant when having a bard for a healer turns the longer fight into a shorter fight.


Spellsong trance gives a 10% SP cost reduction instead of the emp/emp heal cost reductions with a greater return on that 10% the more expensive the spell is. If I'm casting maximized empower healing quickened mass cure moderate I'm getting an 8 SP reduction in cost compared to the emp heal efficient enhancements for 4 SP.

When you mention you have spells the prevent damage you do, but compared to disco ball or fascinate they are not as effective. Fascinate doesn't cost SP in the first place and if you are going caster spec you are paying SP for 9th level spells for the DC's compared to a bard paying the SP for 6th level spells and the spellsinger has the higher DC with the better spell penetration for the lower cost with a more powerful effect.


I don't have to use a mass cure for a single target low on hp either. I can cure critical and heal scroll and possibly add other scrolls in too. I would if I needed to but between cure critical and heal scrolls I haven't seen the need.


If you want some advantages for clerics it's the aura and burst, the SP efficiency from Heal/Mass Heal, earlier access to group healing spells, and some better direct damage and kill spells.

Heal and Mass Heal are nice, and so is the aura. Many clerics tend to over-heal with those spells. You have a valid point about quickened rez, but even then failing a concentration check can be dealt with by moving out of harm's way.


That's a rough comparison on spellsinger bard vs RS cleric. We can debate the benefits of either and there are benefits to either but stating a bard can't heal because he doesn't know the pug is no different than the cleric, and if it does turn into a resource heavy trip bards have the definite advantage in that department with cheaper access and better results with wands and scroll.


You will find players with a lot of experience consider bards effective healers. Any bard, not just spellsingers. It isn't hard to build a bard to heal. I'm playing a monk these days for a change of pace (it's a pretty big change) and I find myself taking bards over clerics or fvs's.


Long post, hopefully you see my points, if not I'll let you keep your opinion. But I definitely disagree with your sentiment on thinking bards cannot be primary healers.

[Altkey]

I was just commenting tonight that when I TR my elf bard spellsinger I will probably change to human for the bonus feat to support main healing. I'm just torn at the moment between whether I'd take quicken or empower. I'd consider drop toughness but it would cost an unacceptable amount of my HP I think.

[Jaid314]

one reason i might expect to see bards having a hard time healing is because it's expected of you less often. i know that when i am healing, i don't currently have the red-bar awareness to be able to really do much of anything else while healing. i mean, i can refresh buffs between fights, but i've found that almost invariably if i go in to melee something, i tend to lose track of someone's health...

this is not to say that it can't be done by a bard with the exact same build as i have. rather, i'm saying that i personally have a hard time doing it.

that said, if the group aren't a bunch of total spaz's, i've found myself able to solo heal in quests fairly well. as a general rule of thumb though, if i'm running out of mana and i'm not spending it on CC, there's a decent chance the group is going to die, because no way am i drinking a mana pot for some random quest on normal... i won't even drink someone else's mana pot. i categorically refuse, though i will dip into my supply of scrolls and wands.

but yeah, if the group is so bad as to need my full mana bar, while regenerating SP... they don't need a healer, they need a backpack ride.

[Doxmaster]

I was just commenting tonight that when I TR my elf bard spellsinger I will probably change to human for the bonus feat to support main healing. I'm just torn at the moment between whether I'd take quicken or empower. I'd consider drop toughness but it would cost an unacceptable amount of my HP I think.

Well, as a low HP class, bards basically need toughness, unless they have a lot of gear and experience backing them up. As a healer, you'll really want quicken for those moments where 5 people are about to die and something is stepping on your skull, doing maybe 70 damage per hit.

Thus, you either need to leave Empowered Healing out or to drop one of your other feats.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

that said, if the group aren't a bunch of total spaz's, i've found myself able to solo heal in quests fairly well. as a general rule of thumb though, if i'm running out of mana and i'm not spending it on CC, there's a decent chance the group is going to die, because no way am i drinking a mana pot for some random quest on normal... i won't even drink someone else's mana pot. i categorically refuse, though i will dip into my supply of scrolls and wands.

but yeah, if the group is so bad as to need my full mana bar, while regenerating SP... they don't need a healer, they need a backpack ride.


I haven't played healing types past level 3 (leveling a barbarian, actually, lol), but QFT and +1 to the max, baby. Really, I'm personally of the opinion (and others are more than welcome to enjoy playing any way they like, and i don't judge), that it's not worth it to drink a mana pot under all but the most extreme of circumstances, like if you'd have to repeat some really really long PITA quest that you're almost done with, and that you need to get to the good part or a chain.

Otherwise, people should by and large sell the mana pots, and (if they want to help out healers, which is always good) carry a few cure wands and chuck em to the healers in those crunch situations. And get a few cure serious pots for oh schneeb! situations, since it's prolly going to be cheaper than the repair bill from dying:)

[elujin]

**** now i want to make a healing bard :(

[chak]

Bards can make great healers.Did a tempest run a little bit ago where the main healer was a paladin.....its 90% the player skill so im almost always willing to take a chance .

[Llewndyn]

I PUG a lot and have recently rolled up a human Spellsinger. He's lvl 8 now, spec'd for healing (song magic III, spell point item, superior ardor clickies, cure mod and cure serious, maximize, starting to work on the heal crit line of enhancements, max'd charisma).

I assume he's probably better at healing than most non radiant servant clerics at his level. He also has so many spell points that if a cleric is in the group doing the healing its hard to use them all. I mean, he can hold his own in melee with his greataxe, but he doesn't really shine unless he can make significant healing contributions to the group along with some CC and melee.

Still, if I send a tell (explaining I am heal spec'd) to a PUG leader looking for a healer, I often get "we need a straight up cleric". Once it was for an at and above lvl group running Gwylan's on normal I think. So that time I snapped back "if your group sucks that bad that I can't heal you through then good luck". He wasn't too happy, but really its Gwylan's...there's a shrine every 2 steps.

Is the solution just to lead your own PUGs all the time? Or are there tricks to getting people to accept you in the role you should be taking?

Along with the rogue the bard is one of those "red-headed stepchildren" who you take usually just to fill your group but unless it's HoX or something like that don't put a lot of stock into, and the reason why is because they are INCREDIBLY easy to mess up. You either get a bard that is completely useless as far as melee but sings songs all the time, or that is good for melee but not CC, or doesn't buff... it's sad. I will say the only real way to get accepted is to get noticed. Do some PUGs that are full of fail and pull them out of the fire. That's 5 people who know you are to be feared and respected. I get flak all the time because I rolled up a Horc bard virtuoso, but you know what? After running a bunch of low level stuff and not only leading kill count but also keeping the party alive (CC FTW) now I get invites to upper level content from "repeat customers", same goes for my clonk, my WF monk, that's the way to go, and you know what? You will be happier in the long run. It's a great feeling to log in and get a tell from someone asking you along that you partied with before, especially since they kinda hype you up to the group.

Sadly, I have a barb and almost every other class but this Horc bard can outmelee all of them and can heal almost as well as my pure healers AND he has badanus CC to boot. If you are ever on Ghallanda look Lutenist up, bards Unite!

[bartosy]

the best way to be accepted as a healer playing the bard class ..

it's pretty simple just show your able to heal and people will eventually accept you, ofcourse this will be a bit harder to proof when your a bard then lets say a cleric or a fvs because most people have some kind of tunnelvision concerning bards, but if you show others that your capable of doing your job you will eventually make a name for yourself.

[Ghaldar]

Groups who do not understand the value of the healing bard you do not need to be in their group.

[Gorbadoc]

And running Gwylan's on normal at level? You heal that with cure serious pots/wands, not with a dedicated healer. Having a bard healer there would be cheating. :)

What's even funnier is that a pro bard can shut down almost every monster in that quest. My comment to the party leader would have been that, if he needed a healer, it would be be a sign that I wasn't doing my job.

[Cam_Neely]

How to be accepted as a healer:

At the hardest part of the quest/raid, use Kormor's to dance the "real" healer. Then keep the party healed up and happy, thus demonstrating your ability fill the healer's role.

-Kernal

Now you need to roll a healer so I can try this... :)