Guild airships how wrong could they be made?

[Emizand]

I believe that guild airship buffs are completely the wrong way around.

We reward the most powerful guilds and players by making them more powerful.

Think consideration needs to be given to what this game is all about. GS items, epic items, tod rings, TR's, completionist, fastest raid times, ect. These go to making what this game is about and that is bragging rights.

So I suggest that when you form a guild you are given a ship with some major enhancements and as you progress these are reduced. Until at the higher echelons you actually take a penalty for being in a guild with very high renown.

Stupid idea i hear you say. I think a player is then forced to pick between having the uberest toon or showing some commitment to their guild. Hey we have to run with -2 to hit, and less hitpoints, but we still own.

Well i am sure the vast majority will disagree, but it would certainly help newer players and be a challange to the more powerful players instead of just making the gap even wider.

Just a thought

Emi

[Cam_Neely]

So reward those that work least and take away perks as you work harder?

This wont help new players at all, as there would be no game upon your implementation.

[flynnjsw]

I believe that guild airship buffs are completely the wrong way around.

We reward the most powerful guilds and players by making them more powerful.

Think consideration needs to be given to what this game is all about. GS items, epic items, tod rings, TR's, completionist, fastest raid times, ect. These go to making what this game is about and that is bragging rights.

So I suggest that when you form a guild you are given a ship with some major enhancements and as you progress these are reduced. Until at the higher echelons you actually take a penalty for being in a guild with very high renown.

Stupid idea i hear you say. I think a player is then forced to pick between having the uberest toon or showing some commitment to their guild. Hey we have to run with -2 to hit, and less hitpoints, but we still own.

Well i am sure the vast majority will disagree, but it would certainly help newer players and be a challange to the more powerful players instead of just making the gap even wider.

Just a thought

Emi

So you would rather start OP and then lose it? Sorry, but the basic premise of everything is that as you increase in level, you increase in power.

If you are choosing a guild based simply because they have good ship buffs, then you do not have the correct mindset to join a guild in the first place.

[Emizand]

So reward those that work least and take away perks as you work harder?

Dont think of it as a reward but as help starting off and then less support as guilds get more able.

As I said I think few will agree.

[DMCain]

Personally I say just toss out the whole ship buff garbage or give every guild, regardless of level (as long as lvl 25+), the same buffs. But then, I don't care much for the way they did the guild airships. I would've MUCH rather had a good player housing set-up with everything for said house costing in-game coin.

[Cam_Neely]

Dont think of it as a reward but as help starting off and then less support as guilds get more able.


Call it what you like, but I'll call it a bad idea :p

[Emizand]

If you are choosing a guild based simply because they have good ship buffs, then you do not have the correct mindset to join a guild in the first place.

I am talking about guilds starting fresh, not joining a guild for the airship. As they improve in play and garner better equipment then the benefits of airship buffs would not be as needed.

[Emizand]

Call it what you like, but I'll call it a bad idea :p

Lol.

[flynnjsw]

I am talking about guilds starting fresh, not joining a guild for the airship. As they improve in play and garner better equipment then the benefits of airship buffs would not be as needed.

Most good guilds could care less about the majority of the buffs in the first place.

[dkyle]

I am talking about guilds starting fresh, not joining a guild for the airship. As they improve in play and garner better equipment then the benefits of airship buffs would not be as needed.

So then the optimal thing to do will be for everyone to make one-person guilds, never pick up renown, and organize "guild" activity through channels?

Sounds like a great thing to encourage.

Argue that guild buffs are OP if you like, but making characters worse for being in high-renown guilds is simply ridiculous.

[Emizand]

Personally I say just toss out the whole ship buff garbage or give every guild, regardless of level (as long as lvl 25+), the same buffs. But then, I don't care much for the way they did the guild airships. I would've MUCH rather had a good player housing set-up with everything for said house costing in-game coin.

Something has to be done I agree with you.

[KillEveryone]

Personally I say just toss out the whole ship buff garbage or give every guild, regardless of level (as long as lvl 25+), the same buffs. But then, I don't care much for the way they did the guild airships. I would've MUCH rather had a good player housing set-up with everything for said house costing in-game coin.

This is what I also would have rather seen.

[Emizand]

Most good guilds could care less about the majority of the buffs in the first place.

Exactly!

[Emizand]

So then the optimal thing to do will be for everyone to make one-person guilds, never pick up renown, and organize "guild" activity through channels?

Sounds like a great thing to encourage.

Argue that guild buffs are OP if you like, but making characters worse for being in high-renown guilds is simply ridiculous.

As already stated most people dont use ship buffs. Also there has to be a certain kudos to getting to higher lvl as a guild, and i believe some people would go for bragging rights even at a penalty.

[flynnjsw]

Exactly!

But giving new characters/guilds the best buffs will not make them better players. Make them work for it the same as everyone else.

[Emizand]

But giving new characters/guilds the best buffs will not make them better players. Make them work for it the same as everyone else.

It will not make them better players, but ease the process of learning.

[Thelmallen]

I really don't understand your gripe. Do you want to have all of the good high-level guild renown buffs without actually working to acquire them? If so, that's just silly.

If you have a problem with the concept of airship buffs, then just don't get an airship.

But with the gradations to guild renown, it is not hard for a guild to get an airship. I have a character in a two-person guild, my character in that guild is a piker on my 2nd account so I don't even play her that much and my buddy and I just got to guild level 22, took us about 3 weeks. If you want ship buffs, they're not hard to get.

[Emizand]

I really don't understand your gripe. Do you want to have all of the good high-level guild renown buffs without actually working to acquire them? If so, that's just silly.

If you have a problem with the concept of airship buffs, then just don't get an airship.

But with the gradations to guild renown, it is not hard for a guild to get an airship. I have a character in a two-person guild, my character in that guild is a piker on my 2nd account so I don't even play her that much and my buddy and I just got to guild level 22, took us about 3 weeks. If you want ship buffs, they're not hard to get.

I dont have a gripe and i dont have a problem. I just think the whole guild building could have been done better. A lot of people dont bother with ships buffs because they dont need them. I am suggesting putting them somewhere where they may be of more use.

[Chai]

/disagree.

The ships do not reward those who are the most powerful. You could start a guild and do nothing but plow level 1-8 content, delete and repeat, and stay on par guild levelwise, and ship buff wise, with a bunch of power gamers who are by contrast alot more powerful.

Having a penalty for being in a guild is just plain wrong, on so many levels. What would stop me from opening up a teamspeak channel with those people I enjoy gaming with and not being in a guild? we could still be the most ubertastic powergamers on the server, and not have to abide the system.

Until recently, guilds were just an extended friends list. Now they are still an extended friends list with the ability to work to be able to earn a buff / teleport / crafting station.

Why would people work to earn a penalty? The grind is bad enough as it is.....

[dkyle]

As already stated most people dont use ship buffs.

Sorry, I don't believe that. I always load up on ship buffs while a Raid or Epic forms, and I almost always see tons of ship buffs when I inspect people while I buff them. That includes when I'm running with the top raiding guilds on the server. Only time I skip them is if the rest of the group is waiting on me.

Good players don't waste time on ship buffs while they zerg Tangleroot for the sixth time. But for endgame Raids an Epics? Only a fool wouldn't use a significant advantage that costs them next to nothing.


Also there has to be a certain kudos to getting to higher lvl as a guild, and i believe some people would go for bragging rights even at a penalty.

This is fantasy. A system as you propose would gut the guild system. For one, high level guilds tend to be filled with the powergamers who wouldn't put up with gimping themselves for some e-peen nonsense.

[Emizand]

What would stop me from opening up a teamspeak channel with those people I enjoy gaming with and not being in a guild? we could still be the most ubertastic powergamers on the server, and not have to abide the system.

So would people do that or is the guild more important? Think different people will respond differently.


Now they are still an extended friends list with the ability to work to be able to earn a buff / teleport / crafting station.

Fair point well made. Think it is mainly the buffs i was considering. Teleport and crafting stations are different.

[Emizand]

This is fantasy. A system as you propose would gut the guild system. For one, high level guilds tend to be filled with the powergamers who wouldn't put up with gimping themselves for some e-peen nonsense.

Not as sure as you about that. However, would they stay if there were no buffs, no penalty and crafting stations, teleport and other no buffish things?

[dcp101]

Sorry, I don't believe that. I always load up on ship buffs while a Raid or Epic forms, and I almost always see tons of ship buffs when I inspect people while I buff them. That includes when I'm running with the top raiding guilds on the server. Only time I skip them is if the rest of the group is waiting on me.

Good players don't waste time on ship buffs while they zerg Tangleroot for the sixth time. But for endgame Raids an Epics? Only a fool wouldn't use a significant advantage that costs them next to nothing.



This is fantasy. A system as you propose would gut the guild system. For one, high level guilds tend to be filled with the powergamers who wouldn't put up with gimping themselves for some e-peen nonsense.


I was puzzled too when I read that. Buffs are exactly that, buffs, and they stack so why not use them?

[dkyle]

Not as sure as you about that. However, would they stay if there were no buffs, no penalty and crafting stations, teleport and other no buffish things?

For the most part, yes. There were guilds before Ships, there would be guilds if ships were removed.

But I just don't have a problem with guild buffs. The game is fundamentally based on the premise of earning ways to make your character better. Guild buffs are just another form of that.

Edit: Ah, looks like I misunderstood. A "but still had" instead of the "and" would've been more clear. If there's no penalty to being in a guild, then yes, people would generally stay in their guilds. But that doesn't change the ridiculousness of your original suggestion.

Whether guild buffs are OP, or somehow degenerate, or not, is a matter of taste. Penalizing people for participation in the guild system is just plain a bad idea.

[Chai]

So would people do that or is the guild more important? Think different people will respond differently.

With penalizing them for being in a guild, they will respond by finding a way to group together and not have to use the in game guild system, avoiding the penalty. Teamspeak, ventrilo, channels, etc. The guild mechanic used to be merely an officiality until recently when Turbine actually gave guilds something to work toward.


Fair point well made. Think it is mainly the buffs i was considering. Teleport and crafting stations are different.

The buffs dont really make or break the game. I find it humerous when I read these builds that include ship buffs and other small duration non sustainable buffs in their min max build profiles.

If that low level guilded half orc is running around the harbor with a raged 28 str where the unguilded player has a 26, the end result will still be the same when they run quests.

[dcp101]

Not as sure as you about that. However, would they stay if there were no buffs, no penalty and crafting stations, teleport and other no buffish things?

What you proposed in the first thread and this are two completely different things though. Your OP penalizes guilds for being higher level. If we had nothing to begin with and just a ship then there is really nothing to talk about.

[Khanyth]

OP:

No. You're wrong. Totally. You have it totally bassackwards. The concept of penalizing guilds for having good buffs is gibibblerish.

DDO's implementation of guild ships are fine.

DDO's implementation of guild ship buffs are fine.

The system/whatever you want to call it.... it's not broken. Not even remotely.

Let it be.

If you don't like GShips or GBuffs.... don't be in one and/or don't use them.

Just. That. Simple.

[dkyle]

If that low level guilded half orc is running around the harbor with a raged 28 str where the unguilded player has a 26, the end result will still be the same when they run quests.

It's a little more than that. The guilded player also more HP and longer rages, +3 attack, +2 damage, +1 saves, and more. At low level, being in a level 62 guild probably adds around two levels worth of potency.

[flynnjsw]

It will not make them better players, but ease the process of learning.


Making things easier does not "ease the process of learning". Repetition and running with people that can help you out will on the other hand.

[Emizand]

At low level, being in a level 62 guild probably adds around two levels worth of potency.

Also its likely if in a lvl 62 guild the character will have access to far more resources.

So if the buffs were the other way around, the resources would balance things out. However I would still expect the skill and knowledge of the 62er to far outweigh anything else.

[Emizand]

Making things easier does not "ease the process of learning". Repetition and running with people that can help you out will on the other hand.

You are giving less experienced players the ability to strengthen themselves, hopefully they will get to a point where they dont need to do this before it is withdrawn.

[aldan]

Personally I say just toss out the whole ship buff garbage or give every guild, regardless of level (as long as lvl 25+), the same buffs. But then, I don't care much for the way they did the guild airships. I would've MUCH rather had a good player housing set-up with everything for said house costing in-game coin.

Sounds a little socialist?

Guilds promote teamwork, working towards goals. there are perks for teamwork.

You dont have to be a large guild to benefit, there is a small guild bonus.

Its the same Rich vs Poor fight in the real world. Some see the Rich as evil and only caring about themselves. Other see them as the producers of jobs, innovative, enterprising, etc. Often times its the rich that are providing your jobs.

Guild ships are a perk, and everyone has access to it, just work at it, and the reward is there.

To take away would say that working hard goes unrewarded. A very socialist idea and kills the free market.

I work fulltime, have twins, and go to grad school. I make a very good salary right now and will greatly increase that in the future. I am not greedy, in fact I have not changed my lifestyle 1 bit since I really started making good money.

I am respectful of what i have and enjoy the fruits of my hard work. There are some friends of mine that view this as elitist republican mumbo jumbo and its nonsense.

I produce for this great U.S ecomony the same way that members of guilds produce for the guild, with their effort, and for that, we are rewarded.

One right step, kills entropy.

[Emizand]

Sounds a little socialist?

Guilds promote teamwork, working towards goals. there are perks for teamwork.

You dont have to be a large guild to benefit, there is a small guild bonus.

Its the same Rich vs Poor fight in the real world. Some see the Rich as evil and only caring about themselves. Other see them as the producers of jobs, innovative, enterprising, etc. Often times its the rich that are providing your jobs.

Guild ships are a perk, and everyone has access to it, just work at it, and the reward is there.

To take away would say that working hard goes unrewarded. A very socialist idea and kills the free market.

I work fulltime, have twins, and go to grad school. I make a very good salary right now and will greatly increase that in the future. I am not greedy, in fact I have not changed my lifestyle 1 bit since I really started making good money.

I am respectful of what i have and enjoy the fruits of my hard work. There are some friends of mine that view this as elitist republican mumbo jumbo and its nonsense.

I produce for this great U.S ecomony the same way that members of guilds produce for the guild, with their effort, and for that, we are rewarded.

One right step, kills entropy.

Wow, far to political!

[SaneDitto]

You are giving less experienced players the ability to strengthen themselves, hopefully they will get to a point where they dont need to do this before it is withdrawn.

Experience, tactics, gear, and the occasional hard knock strengthens players, not buffs. Buffs only supplement the player's skill.

If the player is already good to start with, airship buffs make them a potent combatant. If the player is...mediocre, no amount of airship buffs will teach them.

[Cyr]

Indeed. I only wish they went one step further and made the starter rags in Korthos the best gear in the game and made you get weaker as you gained xp.

That makes sense right?

[dkyle]

Also its likely if in a lvl 62 guild the character will have access to far more resources.

So if the buffs were the other way around, the resources would balance things out. However I would still expect the skill and knowledge of the 62er to far outweigh anything else.

You're still holding onto this idea? I guess I should admire your conviction.

What you still don't seem to get is, that in a game where a lvl 62 guild is harmful to the characters in it, lvl 62 guilds wouldn't exist. It's a moot point whether an experienced player can "handle" a penalty. Why would that player willingly take on that penalty? Only a small minority of players impose limits on themselves like that.

[Emizand]

It's a moot point whether an experienced player can "handle" a penalty. Why would that player willingly take on that penalty? Only a small minority of players impose limits on themselves like that.

Ok so dont go negative. It wouldnt be a penalty it would be the loss of starter help.

[amnota]

Just be sure to name the Guild.."Benjamins Buttons"

[dkyle]

Ok so dont go negative. It wouldnt be a penalty it would be the loss of starter help.

Loss of a bonus is exactly the same as gain of a penalty. If the loss is avoidable (as it would be if it were tied to gaining guild renown), it would be avoided. By abandoning any high-renown guilds.

If you want to propose free "ship buffs" to low-level non-TRs, that don't stack with real ship buffs, and gradually disappear as the character levels, that would make more sense. I wouldn't support it, but at least it wouldn't destroy the guild system.

[Sirea]

Not as sure as you about that. However, would they stay if there were no buffs, no penalty and crafting stations, teleport and other no buffish things?

Man, before guild ships it was so hard to get a guild together, and guilds didn't last long without buffs to unite them, they were just crumbling left and right... :rolleyes:

Let's think, why did people join guilds before? Because playstyles and personalities matched, much how real-life relationships start and are maintained by similar interests and outlooks. Now, you have guilds that are there just to get that ship, just to get those buffs, mass recruit off Korthos/Harbor to meet those ends, hardly anyone bothers to get to know each other or group together as a guild. And what do you think the general opinion is of guilds such as that? It's not good, I'll tell you that.

If you're joining a guild just for the renown and would leave a guild just because they didn't have the uberest ship and the best buffs, then you are missing the entire point and aren't worthy of being in anything more than a renown-farming guild and the reputation that goes along with it.

If I see a high-renown guild, I'm going to expect to see a certain skill level to justify that level, and it's just sad how often I'm proven wrong. If anything, the renown system doesn't reward skill as well as it should. Guilds that do tons of end-game content, elite raids and epics should be the ones on the high end of the spectrum, not mass-recruit guilds who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, even on casual.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

No.


I don't like how they did reknown and buffs, but there really is nothing wrong with them.

And my little guild of a handfull seems to be getting a lot of pride and satisfaction out of each rank we earn.


I do have some problems with how many things in the game are creating an ever-largening gap between the casual and power gamers though. Guild buffs included.

But so far, the content is not so hard that the casual guys cannot complete it.

[EatSmart]

If all a new player wants from a guild is their perks, there are pleanty of high level blind-invite no vetting process guilds that will cater for them. There is nothing spectacularly powerful beyond level 63 and the equilibrium point of guilds that level through crushing numbers seems to be around the 67 mark at the moment. So if a new player really wants them, they can get them.

And thats if you assume that nobody is willing to let other people onto their airship. Certainly on Orien, most guilds are pretty happy to let others share their buffs for the less lolzy raids/epics.

I dont really see where the issue is, beyond the convenience of having the biggest, baddest airship in every 6-7 man casual guild. Those buffs are available, even to those people if they ask around.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

So what you are suggesting is that everyone has their own guild, we lose guild chat, and need to use custom chanels as the new guilds?

Um...no, that seems rather stupid.

[stoolcannon]

I believe that guild airship buffs are completely the wrong way around.

We reward the most powerful guilds and players by making them more powerful.

Think consideration needs to be given to what this game is all about. GS items, epic items, tod rings, TR's, completionist, fastest raid times, ect. These go to making what this game is about and that is bragging rights.

So I suggest that when you form a guild you are given a ship with some major enhancements and as you progress these are reduced. Until at the higher echelons you actually take a penalty for being in a guild with very high renown.

Stupid idea i hear you say. I think a player is then forced to pick between having the uberest toon or showing some commitment to their guild. Hey we have to run with -2 to hit, and less hitpoints, but we still own.

Well i am sure the vast majority will disagree, but it would certainly help newer players and be a challange to the more powerful players instead of just making the gap even wider.

Just a thought

Emi

I love it. I also think the more you grind the less gear you should have. I can't wait until my Bracers of the Claw auto-destruct once I hit my 40th TOD.