Highest Damage with a Bow

[ArchStriker]

Hello, I am always creating new characters. I've been playing for a year, and havn't played an archer build yet. I would like to see if anyone can help me with creating a max dps archer build. I really don't care what class. I prefer drow, and I would like to have some hide abilities. Longbow would be good. Thanks, if you need anymore info just ask.

[drac317]

first off you would ned to do 3 lives as mainly ranger to get the flat +6 dmg with ranged:eek:

i know alot of work,but you did say highest:D

then go elf ftr12/rgr6/barb2 or some other such build for an AA/kensaiII longbow build.
helf works also but dont get elven ranged dmg.

edit: it might help to know if you want anything else out of the build like traps or umd or minor casting.

[ArchStriker]

No I don't prefer traps or casting. But if it would maintain most of it's damage, and get manyshot as quick as possible, then that would be nice.

[drac317]

well you could just go pure 20rgr and be nasty against your FE'sand get the capstone(that supposedly isn't working right)

or something like what i suggested to get kensaiII for the flat bonus dmg and power surge(+8str clikie),and at least six lvls of ranger to start to get manyshot asap.

theres tons of builds out there on the forums

edit: the reason i mention rouge(or monk for that matter) is its the only way to get evasion on a build like this,its not absolutely neede but nice to have.

[ArchStriker]

Thanks, what type of build like what combo. The PRE for ranger, should be arcane?Also is deepwood useful at all, the sniper shot seems kinda cool.

[sephiroth1084]

Deepwood Sniper is utterly useless at this point in time. Rangers only have two PrEs: Tempest and Arcane Archer.

[ArchStriker]

Thanks guys, can someone give me a link to a pretty awesome archer build?

[drac317]

Deepwood Sniper is utterly useless at this point in time. Rangers only have two PrEs: Tempest and Arcane Archer.
very true.

and elf and helf get AA no mater what class as long as they meet the prereqs

[ArchStriker]

Is there disadvantages if you go elf and aa without going ranger pre AA, are they the same?

[smithtj3]

Bow ranger is a tricky animal to max DPS out on because it relies on two stats to determine damage where as the traditional melee class relies on only one. With a fighter build, you only need to put points into strength and this determines how much damage you will due as well as how likely you are to hit your target. With a ranger using a bow, strength is still determining how much damage you due but your dexterity score is what determines how likely you are to hit.

This complicates things because if you put too much into dexterity you sacrifice points that could have gone into strength and ultimately damage. If you put too much into strength then you wind up missing and sacrificing damage in that respect. You need to do a great deal of gear planning and boss AC research before you start your ranger so you can figure out the exact to-hit figure you will need to achieve and how you will achieve it to leave as many points as possible available for strength.

Epic difficulties throw a bit of wrench into the whole dynamic as well because while these dungeons represent the most recognizable end game challenge, they aren't run as often as your standard end game content. If you plan on building your ranger for epic rather than normal end game, you are going to lose DPS in the level 17 - 19 content because your epic attack will be higher than necessary for that content. If you build your character for level 17 - 19 and ignore epic, you may find yourself missing more often on epic quests and as a result sacrificing DPS there.


As far as the ranger PrE, arcane archer is the only realistic option for bow damage as a result of the Slayer arrow imbue which grants 500 points of damage on a vorpal strike. Deepwood Sniper has nothing even remotely close to that. As far as the ranger capstone and alacrity (rate of fire) increases, none of them give you the advertised bonus. It's commonly believed to be about 50% of what is described. So the capstone gives about a 12% increase to firing speed. Other items and weapons sets operate under the same rule and there is some date to suggest that certain combinations do stack.

For max DPS with a bow, the elf is the class to work with because it is the nature of their enhancements being tailored towards bow attack and damage. Going pure ranger also has the advantage of letting the character make the most out of the favored enemy feats and enhancements.

Notable AA gear includes:

- The Amrath AA ring and necklace set
- The black dragon scale armor from Gianthold
- The quiver from the Abbot raid
- The tumbleweed ring
- Silverbow from the Temple of Vol quest
- A Greensteel Lit II bow
- Windhowler bracers
- Bloodstone or Shimmering Arrowhead trinkets
- Raven's Eye item set from Red Fens

[ArchStriker]

Thanks, but can someone give me a link to a build.

[timetorun177]

Search hElves Angel.

[smithtj3]

Is there disadvantages if you go elf and aa without going ranger pre AA, are they the same?

The elf race has access to the AA PrE whether they are ranger or not. The advantage to accessing it via the ranger class is that you can take the enhancements earlier while non-rangers have to wait until level 19 or 20 to take the Slayer arrow enhancement. Rangers also just need to take the feat mental toughness in order to meet the requirements for the PrE while a fighter or other non spell casting class would have to cross class something to obtain a SP pool.

[smithtj3]

Thanks, but can someone give me a link to a build.

The thread below does a very thorough job of explaining the complexities of the bow ranger specifically and also details several builds that are designed for ranged combat.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=263907

[Brennie]

Highest DPS ranged character would be, in my opinion, found here:

Elf Kensai AA (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=283657). Read down for revised builds, which are better.

More discussion can be found HERE (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=269669). Start reading at about post 8. The early ones aren't that good.

18 fighter for Kensai III, feats, and other fighter fun stuff, ranger 1 for free bow strength and +2 (3 with enhancements?) damage to either undead (good for leveling) or evil outsiders (Good for endgame/raiding), and 1 bard as a AA qualifier, also for a smattering of skillponts, weak Inspire Courage (Weak is better than none), UMD, access to a few nice wands (like blur) and Focusing Chant.

Longbow Kensai does the heavy lifting for DPS gain. Power Surge + Haste boost + Manyshot will be huge burst DPS when you want to take down something fast, or just put the hurt on a boss. Mix in some Slayer arrow, and you are a burst DPS machine.

Big downsides are:

- Spellpoints. You won't have many, unless you have an "Always on" spellpoint item. You can re-apply slayer arrow once or twice if it gets dispelled (Damned beholders!), but after that you're SOL. Archivist necklace will be a useful-til-level-20 item for you.

- Progression. Kensai III and Arcane Archer +5 arrows and slayer arrows all come in at level 20. All other AA abilities are delayed 2 levels in comparison to a Ranger, and Kensai II is also put off. Most ranged feats come in 1 or 2 levels behind what a Ranger would have, due to BaB restrictions.

- Melee. It comes in late. However, with your good strength and high to-hit, you can whip out any Two-Handed weapon of choice and go to town in the low levels. TWF can fit in late, bringing Melee into good standing.

- Stat spread. If you want UMD AND spot (And you probably do. No point in being ranged if you dont' see the enemy til its meleeing you), You're going to have to invest some points in Int. Additionally, if you want to ever cast that one bar dspell you have, you're going to need a +3 or better charisma item. The charisma item can be hotswapped for casting/UMD though.

Half Elf offers some interesting tweaks to all of these builds. Rogue Dilletante seems like a natural fit, since we have dex above 13 anyway, and 3d6 extra damage is nice... except the 3d6 only take effect if you are within short range, which is a rather uncomfortable spot for rangers (Or simply difficult to maintain). Ranger Dilletante also seems promising, allowing you to turn your ranger level into something else, except that the "Bow Strength" wanna be line caps out at 26 strength, with everything passed that being wasted for ranged combat. If you don't get above 26 strength on a Kensai AA, you're doing it wrong.

For maximum dps, roll in 3 monk past lives, 3 ranger past lives, the Paladin "Active" past life feat, the barbarian "Active" past life feat, and the rogue "Active" past life feat. There are also rumors that the Sorceror "active" past life feat could, in theory, be taken on a pure fighter, which woudl garner higher DPS (Fighter Capstone adds attack speed to ranged combat, and natural 20 BaB also gives a speed increase)

[ArchStriker]

Would going drow over elf , the disadvantages what could they be? Btw this is while taking ranger levels.

[Bilger]

Would going drow over elf , the disadvantages what could they be? Btw this is while taking ranger levels.

Elf gives you access to AA without having to be full ranger where a drow would have to go atleast 18 ranger to get full AA pre

[Therigar]

First, anyone building arcane archer and taking more than 1 ranger level does not know what they are doing.

Second, drow is a poor choice for a damage focused archer build whether you take arcane archer or not.

Third, fighter Kensai III is the character class to give best sustained, non-situational, DPS.

With 18 fighter levels there are enough feats to have all of the desired bow feats. Because some of those depend on DEX the probability is that the character will also have the full TWF line for melee -- although this is not a requirement.

Half-elf with ranger dilettante is the best race choice IF the character does not have Bow Strength. Elf is the best race choice if the character does have the Bow Strength feat.

With 18 fighter levels it is still necessary to qualify for the Arcane Archer prestige class. If choosing elf then wizard is the best splash to qualify for the PrE. This is because you can take enhancements rather than using a feat to qualify. Bard is a reasonable alternative as is sorcerer.

The final character class can be anything depending on play style and expectations. Rogue and ranger are good options for access to large pools of skill points. Ranger also gives you a single Favored Enemy and the Bow Strength feat for free.

Brennie's post is pretty much on target. Note however that the Sorcerer active past life feat only gives spell points if you already have a pool of spell points. As such it does not currently work to let you cast the imbues you need if you are pure class fighter as is hinted at.

[ArchStriker]

With a bow, are you sure the kensai would be more damage than the helves angel? If not/so please tell me how the helves angel isn't as powerful. Also would it work with just a normal elf nto a half elf.

[Therigar]

Would going drow over elf , the disadvantages what could they be? Btw this is while taking ranger levels.

Elf lets you take TWO prestige enhancements. Drow and ranger only get you one.

With fighter as your main class you get the Kensai prestige class that not only gives you an extra +2 to hit and damage but also increases the threat range of the weapon. Larger threat range means more criticals giving you more damage.

With elf as your race you get the Arcane Archer prestige class. This gives you a whole laundry list of bonuses culminating with Slaying Arrows. Elf also gives you another, stacking, +2 to hit and damage.

To gain the same to hit and damage advantage you would need to have a STR 8 points higher. If you have the gear for it you can reach that with a barbarian. So, if you want maximum damage you could go with a barbarian arcane archer.

In that case, however, you will miss out on feats and be extremely one dimensional. It is probably why people are not advocating a build of that type.

[Therigar]

With a bow, are you sure the kensai would be more damage than the helves angel? If not/so please tell me how the helves angel isn't as powerful. Also would it work with just a normal elf nto a half elf.

Yes, kensai is more damage than half-elf.

Half-elf dilettante has to generate 2 points of damage and 1 point increased critical weapon threat per hit to match kensai. Show me how that occurs in sustained, non-situational combat. It doesn't.

Normal elf is better than half-elf because of the elven bow enhancement line that gives +2 to hit and to damage. Again, half-elf dilettantes don't give that on a sustainable basis.

[Fishcatch22]

Normal elf is better than half-elf because of the elven bow enhancement line that gives +2 to hit and to damage. Again, half-elf dilettantes don't give that on a sustainable basis. And you don't get -2 Con, and save APs for other things. +2 to-hit and damage isn't great enough to me to justify the CON penalty; but then again I don't usually look to max out DPS.

[sephiroth1084]

Therigar, did you actually look at the Helves Angel?

[drac317]

Bow ranger ranger not always means ranged, and ranged is not always a ranger. the two are not mutally exclusive.

Notable AA gear includes:

- The Amrath AA ring and necklace set is better for non-ranger AA,as it doesnt stack with capstone
- The black dragon scale armor from Gianthold is not bad but will cap your dex without ftr armor mastery, and alacrity doesnt stack with haste
- The quiver from the Abbot raid same as above
- The tumbleweed ring will latter be replaced by AA set and arrowhead
- Silverbow from the Temple of Vol quest is sweet if you dont have any other bows
- A Greensteel Lit II bow
- Windhowler bracers would be better if they get epic treatment or just dropped the save altogether and make it 5d6 on a crit and the clickie is useless, change it to a sonic arrow clickie version of flame arrow to be useful
- Bloodstone or Shimmering Arrowhead trinkets
- Raven's Eye item set from Red Fens have very little benefit for using two slots
my thoughts

[Therigar]

And you don't get -2 Con, and save APs for other things. +2 to-hit and damage isn't great enough to me to justify the CON penalty; but then again I don't usually look to max out DPS.

That is certainly worth considering and might even motivate some, but the question is about highest damage with a bow. I could be completely wrong and the original post really wants to know about a 1 shot situation. But, I take that to mean sustained DPS via bow. And, in that situation every + to hit and to damage along with every boost to critical threat counts.

So, elf arcane archer should always win over half-elf arcane archer because of the elf bow enhancements for sustained damage.

Half-elf will have some situationally higher DPS depending on dilettante and enhancements. It could possibly work out higher if it can generate a 4 point shift in STR that is "always on" as opposed to triggered or limited by number of available actions. I just don't see that in an "always on" scenario.

Regardless, it is certainly all flavor and OP may in fact prefer situationally higher DPS on the assumption that he can almost always maintain that situation. Barbarians, for example, always assume they can rage as often as needed. :)

[drac317]

i dont see why everyone is figuring crits into sustained dmg

they are situational at best unless the mob is held in some fashion.

12ftr/6rgr/2mnk-kensaiII/AA with power surge,rams might,zen archery in fire stance is more sustained then counting on crits even with 18-20/*3 on a bow imo.

[Therigar]

i dont see why everyone is figuring crits into sustained dmg

they are situational at best unless the mob is held in some fashion.

12ftr/6rgr/2mnk-kensaiII/AA with power surge,rams might,zen archery in fire stance is more sustained then counting on crits even with 18-20/*3 on a bow imo.

Isn't that special.

But, see my earlier post. Anyone planning AA that takes more than 1 level of ranger does not know what they are doing.

BTW, do you know what the word "sustained" means? If so, please explain how power surge figures into the equation.

[drac317]

Isn't that special.

But, see my earlier post. Anyone planning AA that takes more than 1 level of ranger does not know what they are doing.your opinion and we know know what those are like:eek:

BTW, do you know what the word "sustained" means? If so, please explain how power surge figures into the equation.yes i know powersurge is a clickie, real easy to get about 7-8mins worth, so more sustained the praying for a crit
and i wasnt joking when i said 3rgr past lives in the 2nd post.

[sephiroth1084]

Isn't that special.

But, see my earlier post. Anyone planning AA that takes more than 1 level of ranger does not know what they are doing.

BTW, do you know what the word "sustained" means? If so, please explain how power surge figures into the equation.
Because there aren't many places where 8 minutes of a bonus isn't long enough. Even fewer where getting than bonus in 1 minute increments isn't enough (as opposed to a single block of 8 minutes).

Ranger 6 is giving +2 damage from Ram's and providing 5 free feats. That's pretty significant. Six fighter levels would be 3 feats.

[drac317]

Because there aren't many places where 8 minutes of a bonus isn't long enough. Even fewer where getting than bonus in 1 minute increments isn't enough (as opposed to a single block of 8 minutes).

Ranger 6 is giving +3 damage from Ram's and providing 5 free feats. That's pretty significant. Six fighter levels would be 3 feats.
fixed that,but yea my point exactly,nice to know someone got it.

[Therigar]

Well, you certainly are entitled to be wrong.

Criticals are always included when doing DPS calculations because the entire math depends on probabilities and predictible, average damage. It is seldom the case that DPS is calculated based on auto-critical situations or that DPS is calculated on 100% fortification. These are sometimes determined, but usually just as a tool for comparison.

DPS most commonly calculated against no fortification or against 50% fortification. That is because this represents the most common situations in the game. In both the normal progression of attacks will result in critical hits and these can be reliably included into the damage calculations.

Not understanding this probably explains why you have your poorly informed opinion. But, you are still entitled to it.

[Brennie]

- The Amrath AA ring and necklace set is better for non-ranger AA,as it doesnt stack with capstone (According to THIS POST (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3483380&postcount=32) and THIS POST (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=234976) they do actually stack. Infact, according to those posts, the Ranger Capstone stacks with every other attack speed bonus available to ranged players.)
- The black dragon scale armor from Gianthold is not bad but will cap your dex without ftr armor mastery, and alacrity doesnt stack with haste (The previous posts confirm that haste doesn't stack with Alacrity, and Black Dragon scale is made useless by both Haste and the Quiver, and considering that its so *hard* to get black dragonscale armor, and a pain in the keister to repair it, I'd agree with your assessment. However, who cares about capping dex? its not like it affects you reflex saves or to hit or anything, just means less AC)
- The quiver from the Abbot raid same as above (Disagree strongly. Quiver takes up an otherwise never-really-useful slot, gives you a much better capacity than you woudl otherwise have, and gives you an alacrity boost for every moment you don't have haste on. Why would you *not* get the quiver? Sure it doesn't stack with haste, but its amazing otherwise)
- The tumbleweed ring will latter be replaced by AA set and arrowhead Agreed. Ring slots are precious.
- Silverbow from the Temple of Vol quest is sweet if you dont have any other bows (Its the best DPS bow til you get your LitII. Especially good for Manyshotting Harry, Sully, and the like, with appropriate ammo)
- A Greensteel Lit II bow
- Windhowler bracers would be better if they get epic treatment or just dropped the save altogether and make it 5d6 on a crit and the clickie is useless, change it to a sonic arrow clickie version of flame arrow to be useful (What else are you gonna stick in a Bracer slot? The DPS gain is pretty fantastic, with a nice static to-hit and damage, and then a little bit of "on vorpal strike" to go along with it. I routinely see 40-50 sonic damage even on endgame stuff. Combine +5 AA arrows, x3 crit, slayer arrow, and windhowler, and your 20's will be rockin the house!. Also, the clicky isn't useful for damage, but it sure gets rid of enemy firwalls, fogs, clouds, and disco balls (?) pretty well!)
- Bloodstone or Shimmering Arrowhead trinkets

my thoughts

My thoughts on your thoughts in yellow :D

[Anneliese]

Personally, I like the 18 barbarian / 1 fighter or ranger / 1 bard for high damage on 1 target

Feats:
WF: Ranged, PBS (for AA)
Power Attack, Cleave (for frenzied berserker)
Rapid Shot, Manyshot, IC:Ranged (for more damage)
bow strength (ranger level or fighter feat)


Pros/Cons:
+High damage without a bow (power attack+frenzied berserker III + Min2)
+Vicious does not reduce your HP on ranged attacks (6D6 extra damage per shot)
+High strength due to Rage
+With Barbarian speed and sprint boost, you can run fast if needed
+High DR (+8/-)
+UMD as a classskill (Heal scrolls)

+/- No Toughness - but you are a D12 class, and get +3 con enhancements, +4 con from rage and +3 con from rage enhancements (+10con is +200hp at level 20)

-No evasion
-Cannot use many magical items while raged
-Missing Precise Shot & IPS (can be very nice in situations where you line up multiple mobs)


IMHO, missing PS/IPS is the main downside to this build.

[drac317]

My thoughts on your thoughts in yellow :D
only going to really disagre on the silverbow-yes its nice,but an icyburst shockingburst of puregood pust out more constent dmg and is just as sick on crits

[ArchStriker]

Lol, lots of posts and "thoughts" on the matter. Thanks guys.

[Ogmar01]

Thought you might like this link to an archer post

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3491164#post3491164

[Talon_Moonshadow]

i dont see why everyone is figuring crits into sustained dmg

they are situational at best unless the mob is held in some fashion.

12ftr/6rgr/2mnk-kensaiII/AA with power surge,rams might,zen archery in fire stance is more sustained then counting on crits even with 18-20/*3 on a bow imo.

That's not entirely true.

Crits maybe a little difficult to factor in, but crits a majority of DPS comes from crits.

Although i think it is worthwhile to take into account non-crit DPS as well.

[krackythehoodedone]

I believe the highest DPS purely Bow build available today (mainly cos run out of feats to do anything else) would be the 18 Barb FB3/1Ftr/Wiz or even Bard. Check out posts from Soulstabber with sreenshots of 1000 dam from a single arrow.

I think probably the most rounded Archer build about today is the Helves Angel which uses a feat rich build to max out Ranged Manyshot and some kickass Melee DPS in between.

Dont build an archer without all the bow feats especially Imp Precise Shot

Easy Stat calculator for Archers. Go with 30 dex endgame if ur not planning epics. Go for 36 with Epics and you'll hit pretty much everything. At least 14 Con and barring any other special requirements its Str Str Str baby

[Thrudh]

First, anyone building arcane archer and taking more than 1 ranger level does not know what they are doing.

You don't know this game as well as you think you do.

[ArchStriker]

I've already started but if I reach level 20 and like the toon. I'll TR into that.

[sephiroth1084]

I believe the highest DPS purely Bow build available today (mainly cos run out of feats to do anything else) would be the 18 Barb FB3/1Ftr/Wiz or even Bard. Check out posts from Soulstabber with sreenshots of 1000 dam from a single arrow.

Dont build an archer without all the bow feats especially Imp Precise Shot

And that's really the biggest problem with the 18 barb versions: no IPS. The x6 crits are sexy, but they aren't coming with any more frequency in epics since they are still only on a 19-20, and IPS will end up being much higher DPS in many cases (not vs. bosses though).

[Oinkmoobark]

My Pure lvl 20 AA hits around 47-50 on FE and around 40 on non. With the 500 slaying and lightning greensteel it would look like this 160-10-10-10-500-50 (Crit with wind bracers its sonic damage thats the 50) lightning procs around 580-640.

i hit aorund 4-6 of those crits on many shot, along with 1-3 lightning strikes. some times i proc a crit and a strike so its like: 160-10-600-10-10-500-50. around 1300 damage, all total in 1 many shot you should do about 7k or so damge.

[cpito]

A high DPS Archer? Before you get much further, please... for the love of all that's holy in gaming... read this:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=263907

specifically post 4 about half-way down where it adresses kiting.

Muchas Gracias :)

Good luck and enjoy, a well played archer is a lot of fun!

[krackythehoodedone]

Ferr i think you'll find the 18/1/1 build includes all the bow feats..So has Imp Precise shot. Wouldnt be a whole lotta use without it. With Epic Thornlord would be 19-20 X6, 17-18 X4 with sustainable 60+ STR. I think the guys on Cannith. I will ask him for his build and post it if he sais its ok.

Yes Cpito ive read it. However it is written with AA rangers in mind. Their are a couple of speciality Archer builds that use Barbarian as the main class. They can do really obscene bow DPS (so about average compared to a weapon). Because these characters are so limited on feats and so specialised they are pretty hopeless at picking up anything other than a bow.

So put your bow away and pull out a weapon. Its good advice. However their are a few toons on each server that are better off keeping the bow firmly in hand. Toons that are putting together ranged DPS far in excess of anything you are percieving possible.

Most of these Toons are insanely well equipped. Epic Mari/Epic Thornlord/Litany/Quiver of Alacrity(several)/ Full TOD sets/Epic claw set. or Epic charged,windhowler combo/A shed load of GS items and Bows..you get the picture

So honestly Cpito you dont have to pray for the poor deluded archer and neither does Darkstar have to claim that all purely ranged toons are a waste of space. Maybe, just maybe we know something you dont?

[Thrudh]

Ferr i think you'll find the 18/1/1 build includes all the bow feats..

Ouch that's tight...

8 feats...

Weapon focus: Ranged (pre-req for AA)
Point Blank Shot (pre-req for AA)
Power Attack (pre-req for Bow Strength)
Bow Strength
Rapid Shot (pre-req for Manyshot)
Manyshot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot



Because these characters are so limited on feats and so specialised they are pretty hopeless at picking up anything other than a bow.

I'll say... And getting a 19 Dex for IPS ain't cheap either... Although at least they have Power Attack...

[cpito]

So honestly Cpito you dont have to pray for the poor deluded archer and neither does Darkstar have to claim that all purely ranged toons are a waste of space. Maybe, just maybe we know something you dont?

Who says I was praying for the poor deluded archer? I have a long history playing ranged toons. I love them to death. Mostly I pray for crappy ranged toons who don't know how to kite. I don't care how hard you hit, if you lead the mobs on a merry chase and you're not solo, you are likely to **** off party members and feed into all the archer hate. Fine, don't pull out a weapon but don't run away either.

[rangerprototype]

I have spent some time building what I considered a completely glass cannon
I tooled around with toon planner for awhile trying to build the highest possible DPS on a ranged character.

this is the link to my thread. All advice and considerations welcome

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3566625#post3566625

check it out, it doesnt have the level of perfection some other ranged builds have, but its a work in progress
might fit for what your looking for

The goods:
it combines wiz and rogue for extra dps(nice boost with Sneak Attack), some basic spells if desired, and has good syngery by using intelligence for both.
Uses all possible ranged dmg boosts--combines kensei with elven racial bonuses..
allows for maxed UMD and some trap utility as desired..
more HP than any other ranger ive ever built...

[Therigar]

You don't know this game as well as you think you do.

Let's see how much I know about the game.

I say that you should only take 1 level of ranger on an arcane archer build. This is in contrast to those who say to take 6 levels of ranger.

Taking 6 levels of ranger gives a character 1 additional favored enemy and saves 1 feat choice by granting an additional key feat to the build for free. For the record, these are the feats that I think are key to an arcane archer:

1. Point blank shot (prereq).
2. Weapon focus: ranged weapons (prereq)
3. Rapid shot
4. Manyshot
5. Precise shot
6. Improved precise shot
7. Bow strength
8. Improved critical: ranged
9. Power attack
10. TWF
11. ITWF
12. GTWF
13. Toughness

As any reader will recognize, this list can easily be acquired by either a fighter 13/ranger 6/caster 1 or a fighter 18/ranger 1/caster 1 build. So, the reason for choosing a ranger 6 build instead of a ranger 1 build doesn't have a lot to do with the number of feats being used.

Instead, the decision to go ranger 6 is the belief that the spell Ram's Might gives more damage than the increased threat range of the longbow that comes from fighter 18 and the Kensai III enhancements.

Ram's Might gives a +2 STR bonus and a +2 damage bonus. This effectively provides a +3 damage bonus to each hit.

Fighter 16 opens Longbow Specialization II for a +1 damage bonus. Fighter 18 opens Kensai III which in turn opens Longbow Mastery III giving a +1 stackable threat range.

The debate over which is better comes down to this, very simple, difference in the builds.

Warning, number crunch time. If you don't want to review the math but only want the bottom line skip down to the text in orange.

My bow of choice is greensteel radiance with good burst. I choose this because it does two things. First, with silver arrows it is a DR beater for bosses like Harry. Second, it does its bonus damage when it achieves criticals.

Now, you may feel that this is unfair but the entire goal state is to achieve the highest possible damage results on an arcane archer. If it were not then choosing ranger 6 for a 2 point per hit damage advantage would be pointless.

My arcane archer feat choices give us the 19-20 threat range for the longbow. Bow strength adds STR damage to every shot. Top sustained fighter STR has been estimated at ~60. Since that gives an easy to use number it is what I'll use.

Ranger 6 build gets another 2 STR from Ram's Might as has been discussed and an extra +2 to damage. Various other enhancements also give bonuses to damage. Longbow Specialization I gives +1, elf gives +2 and Kensai II gives +2 with another +4 on critical hits.

Ranger 1 build gets no added STR but gets and extra +1 to damage from Longbow Specialization II. It likewise gets Longbow Specialization I for +1, elf for +2 and Kensai II for +2 with that other +4 on critical hits. Kensai Weapon Mastery III gives a stacking +1 threat range.

I'm ready for the math.

R6/F13/c1:

Normal hit -- 1d10 (base) + 26 (STR) + 7 (misc) + 1d6 (good); average damage is 42.
Critical hit -- 3(1d10 (base) + 26 (STR) + 7 (misc) + 4 (on crits)) + 1d6 (good) + 4d6 (good burst) + 4d6 (light); average damage is 159.

My feat list includes IC: ranged so using the 2+ hit methodology we get 17 hits for 42 each and 2 for 159 each in any group of 20 shots. Total damage is 1032.

R1/F18/c1:

Normal hit -- 1d10 (base) + 25 (STR) + 6 (misc) + 1d6 (good); average damage is 40.
Critical hit -- 3(1d10 (base) + 25 (STR) + 6 (misc) + 4 (on crits)) + 1d6 (good) + 4d6 (good burst) + 4d6 (light); average damage is 153.

Again, my feat list includes IC: ranged and KWM III gives a stacking +1 threat range. Using the same 2+ hit methodology we get 16 hits for 40 points each and 3 for 153. Total damage is 1099.

Bottom line is this: taking ranger 6 costs you 67 points of damage in 20 shots, an average of over 3 points per hit. The difference grows larger if you have added crit damage from items like Bloodstone.

So, I reiterate, anyone taking more than 1 level of ranger on an arcane archer build doesn't know what they are doing.

[Thrudh]

Let's see how much I know about the game.

I say that you should only take 1 level of ranger on an arcane archer build. This is in contrast to those who say to take 6 levels of ranger.

Taking 6 levels of ranger gives a character 1 additional favored enemy and saves 1 feat choice by granting an additional key feat to the build for free. For the record, these are the feats that I think are key to an arcane archer:

1. Point blank shot (prereq).
2. Weapon focus: ranged weapons (prereq)
3. Rapid shot
4. Manyshot
5. Precise shot
6. Improved precise shot
7. Bow strength
8. Improved critical: ranged
9. Power attack
10. TWF
11. ITWF
12. GTWF
13. Toughness

As any reader will recognize, this list can easily be acquired by either a fighter 13/ranger 6/caster 1 or a fighter 18/ranger 1/caster 1 build. So, the reason for choosing a ranger 6 build instead of a ranger 1 build doesn't have a lot to do with the number of feats being used.

6 levels of ranger instead of 1 level of ranger gets you Rapid Shot, TWF, ITWF, and Manyshot for free... 18 levels of fighter instead of 13 levels of fighter gets you 3 feats...

Ranger levels nets you 1 extra feat. (plus Diehard, but we won't count that)


Bunch of math.... blah blah blah (actually thank you for breaking it down)

Bottom line is this: taking ranger 6 costs you 67 points of damage in 20 shots, an average of over 3 points per hit. The difference grows larger if you have added crit damage from items like Bloodstone.

3 points per hit is a rounding error... but if you're focusing on purely DPS, you left out some stuff...

Ranger 6 gets 2 favored enemies.. Instead of +3 damage to one favored enemy, ranger 6 gets +6 damage to two favored enemies, so equal to the 18 fighter build against one monster type, and better than it against a second type...

Still minor, but evil outsider and giant (or undead) cover a LOT of monsters and raid bosses in this game.

But here's the biggest thing you left out... 6 levels of ranger means you don't have to take a caster level to get AA (Mental Toughness of course eats up a feat, but you do have an extra one).

Being able to skip the caster level means you can take two levels of rogue or two levels of monk... This means evasion, DPS and UMD (rogue) or two extra feats (monk)...


The debate over which is better comes down to this, very simple, difference in the builds.

Exactly...


So, I reiterate, anyone taking more than 1 level of ranger on an arcane archer build doesn't know what they are doing.

I'm confused how you can say this after the more accurate quote above it.

If your 18/1/1 build did 50% more DPS than an AA build with 6 levels of ranger, you MIGHT be justified with your blanket statement. But the absolute statement you make is way off-base...

Your build is not so superior that anyone who builds differently is an idiot (i.e. doesn't know what they are doing)

Any reasonable person might consider having evasion, UMD, and sneak attack damage equal or even preferable to your build...

I'm not saying that your build is worse... I'm saying that 6 levels of ranger offers some things that 18 fighter build does not.

AND BOTH ARE GOOD.

[Thrudh]

So, I reiterate, anyone taking more than 1 level of ranger on an arcane archer build doesn't know what they are doing.

I have to say one more time, that I REALLY hate statements like this... Way too much of this on these boards.

You really aren't smarter than everyone else.... and you look like a real elitist dbag when you talk to people that way...

[ArchStriker]

I have to say one more time, that I REALLY hate statements like this... Way too much of this on these boards.

You really aren't smarter than everyone else.... and you look like a real elitist dbag when you talk to people that way...

Gotta love the truth! xD

[Therigar]

No need to take mental toughness for an arcane archer build. Many enhancements also qualify. References to mental toughness are just a distraction.

Same applies to the comments about available feats. There are more than enough feats in either build to accommodate all the essential AA needs. This would include adding in diehard. I would point out that most builds don't take this feat (I mean builds over all). It is nice but not critical to any AA build.

A loss of ~3 points of damage per hit is roughly 6% of the damage that the ranger 6 build puts out. But if 6% is insignificant then how about you pay 6% higher taxes this year or take a 6% cut in salary or pay 6% more in university tuition....

It doesn't take 50% differences to be significant. And, because the thread is highest DPS with a bow the 6% difference is very significant.

You are correct that I left out a lot of possible damage items. One was favored enemy.

Ranger 6 gets 2 of them. Ranger 1 gets 1. I'd have to presume that the one both will have is Evil Outsiders. Undead is probably the second choice for the ranger 6 but piercing damage isn't generally effective against undead. Monstrous Humanoid or Abberation might make better choices.

I would not build for DPS with undead in mind. For trash there are better ways to deal with them via disruption. Building just to have higher DPS against the limited number of undead bosses or to deal with deathwarded skeletons in places like the Subterrane seems a bit odd to me.

The reason to stress the TWF feat line and high STR builds is so that the arcane archer can melee when necessary. IMO this is one of those cases when melee is clearly a better choice.

I appreciate that you don't like the attitude. But, the evidence seems to suggest that choosing 6 ranger levels isn't the right choice when going for highest ranged DPS.

It might be a better choice for other reasons and a player might even be willing to reduce ranged DPS because of those reasons. But, that isn't the topic of this thread.

This thread is Highest Damage with a Bow. And you don't get there with a ranger 6 build.

[Thrudh]

No need to take mental toughness for an arcane archer build. Many enhancements also qualify. References to mental toughness are just a distraction.

If you don't splash a caster level, the only way to get AA is with mental toughness.

If you don't splash a caster level, you can get evasion and sneak attack damage from two levels of rogue (and open lock and UMD, sweet).



A loss of ~3 points of damage per hit is roughly 6% of the damage that the ranger 6 build puts out.

I guess I should have checked your math after all.... if 3 points per hit is 6% of the damage, then you're saying the average damage per arrow is 50 points... something is wrong there... Ah now I see... we're talking about arcane archers and you didn't include any of their abilities in there... Slayer arrows alone add 25 points of damage per shot on average... plus, why use a crappy radiance II bow? Lightning strike bow adds a lot more damage with holy and shock and Lightning...

Then you didn't include any past lives, any other gear...

3 extra points of damage per hit is always nice... but it's still just a rounding error... It's not 6% of damage, more like 2%-3%... Gear makes more of a difference than build when you're talking that small of a difference...


I appreciate that you don't like the attitude. But, the evidence seems to suggest that choosing 6 ranger levels isn't the right choice when going for highest ranged DPS.

It might be a better choice for other reasons and a player might even be willing to reduce ranged DPS because of those reasons. But, that isn't the topic of this thread.

This thread is Highest Damage with a Bow. And you don't get there with a ranger 6 build.

You also don't talk about the advantages of 2 rogue levels... that's 6.5 extra damage with sneak attack... Yes, sneak attack with a bow can be difficult, but it's achievable against Harry or Suulo or Horoth where DPS really matters (and of course, the 6 ranger guy has +6 damage against those three instead of your +3, so you're even BEFORE sneak attack)

So technicallly your build doesn't always do Highest Damage with a Bow

Even if we're JUST talking about damage, your build isn't 100% top dog.


So, I reiterate, anyone taking more than 1 level of ranger on an arcane archer build doesn't know what they are doing.

I was responding to this quote, while IN the thread titled Highest Damage with a bow, still doesn't make the distinction.

(1) I disagree that your build is top DPS by any meaninful amount..
(2) Your quote makes it sound like you think there is no reason to take 6 levels of ranger on ANY Arcane Archer... which is completely and utterly false.

[Therigar]

(1) I disagree that your build is top DPS by any meaninful amount..
(2) Your quote makes it sound like you think there is no reason to take 6 levels of ranger on ANY Arcane Archer... which is completely and utterly false.

I think you just took the comment personally when it wasn't and are over-reacting. Then, when the maths show that R6 gives lower DPS and that your clearly personal insult about my intelligence is wrong you are left making excuses.

But, you are correct. My build is undoubtedly not the top DPS build. It just beats your R6 build and that is enough.

I fully expect that a barbarian build will be the highest DPS and, in that case, it might even turn out that R6 is the better splash because of the abundance of feats. But, you are so busy being insulted by something not even directed at you (and being intentionally insulting back as a result) that you can't even look for alternative builds that might actually help the R6 choice.

Try this on for size, barbarian 12/ranger 6/rogue 2. See if you can't fit the 13 feats I listed plus mental toughness (which, as you note, you'll need w/o bard/wizard/sorcerer). Here the ranger's free feats work for you to compensate to a large degree. If you can't fit in all 14 feats, consider what the build could be if it goes THF instead. Feel free to compare half-orc to human if you think you need the racial change for the extra feat.

I'm almost certain it will out DPS my suggestion. :D

BTW, I really do know the game as well as I think I do*. Feel free to admit it.

Edit: *By which I mean this, that if we stick entirely with ranged DPS a barbarian 18/ranger 1/caster 1 will out DPS the barbarian 12/ranger 6/rogue 2 that I suggest. The issue becomes one of "what else can it do?" The 12/6/2 build may not be top ranged DPS but it is probably the better build. Finally, a rogue 18/ranger 1/caster 1 will be absolute top DPS if we include sneak damage (as Thrudh suggests we do).

[Slink]

you better be min 36 dex for epics if you intend to go ranged.

otherwise it will be a whole lot of *whiff*


Edit:
Go grind your past life feats and plan for deepwoods.
Turbine always builds the game in an upwards fashion and loves to do so as it introduces a new grind into the game.

Expect deepwoods to be beyond the capabilities of AA when they get to it.
Of this, I am sure.

[ArchStriker]

Deepwoods fail and you know it.

[HAL]

Who says I was praying for the poor deluded archer? I have a long history playing ranged toons. I love them to death. Mostly I pray for crappy ranged toons who don't know how to kite. I don't care how hard you hit, if you lead the mobs on a merry chase and you're not solo, you are likely to **** off party members and feed into all the archer hate. Fine, don't pull out a weapon but don't run away either.

I personally don't understand why people would be upset that I kite a mob if I'm going to kill it (without taking any damage so the healer can't complain either). Of course I'm not talking about a boss...that's a different story.

[AylinIsAwesome]

- The Amrath AA ring and necklace set is better for non-ranger AA,as it doesnt stack with capstone (According to THIS POST and THIS POST they do actually stack. Infact, according to those posts, the Ranger Capstone stacks with every other attack speed bonus available to ranged players.)

Both of the posts you linked to compared the Deepwood Sniper set, which is not the same as the Arcane Archer.

The Deepwood Sniper set provides an enhancement bonus to attack speed, just like Haste, the Quiver, or Black Dragonscale.

The Arcane Archer set provides a competence bonus to attack speed, like the Ranger capstone, or the Fighter capstone.


Like bonuses to not stack.

[PopeJual]

I have to say one more time, that I REALLY hate statements like this... Way too much of this on these boards.

You really aren't smarter than everyone else.... and you look like a real elitist dbag when you talk to people that way...

If we collect enough of his posts, can we trade them in for a Large Collectible Bag or a Large Ingredient Bag?

Also, a second level of Ranger gives Rapid Shot and TWF without taking away the ability to get to level 18 in another class. Two feats for 1 level ain't too shabby if you're not going to go to Ftr 18 already.

Ranger 14/Ftr6 gives you FoM and essentially full spellcasting ability for a Ranger. Sure that's not the same as Wizard or Cleric full spellcasting ability, but if you want full Wizard or Cleric spellcasting ability, then play a Wizard or Cleric.

There are lots of paths to AA. Some of them stink. Many are decent.

[Malison]

A loss of ~3 points of damage per hit is roughly 6% of the damage that the ranger 6 build puts out. But if 6% is insignificant then how about you pay 6% higher taxes this year or take a 6% cut in salary or pay 6% more in university tuition....

It doesn't take 50% differences to be significant. And, because the thread is highest DPS with a bow the 6% difference is very significant.

You are correct that I left out a lot of possible damage items. One was favored enemy.

Ranger 6 gets 2 of them. Ranger 1 gets 1. I'd have to presume that the one both will have is Evil Outsiders. Undead is probably the second choice for the ranger 6 but piercing damage isn't generally effective against undead. Monstrous Humanoid or Abberation might make better choices.

I would not build for DPS with undead in mind. For trash there are better ways to deal with them via disruption. Building just to have higher DPS against the limited number of undead bosses or to deal with deathwarded skeletons in places like the Subterrane seems a bit odd to me.

You're right, it doesn't take too many small differences to be significant. And leaving out favored enemy is exactly that.
Choosing undead as a secondary would be pretty lame, as you say, which is why you'd go for whatever is more relevant to the content you play. But most often what people care about is dps against raid bosses, which usually means devils. Then you need to apply FE damage to both, as they'll have chosen evil outsider.

Maths redone including FE damage:

R6/F13/c1:

Normal hit -- 1d10 (base) + 26 (STR) + 13 (misc) + 1d6 (good); average damage is 48.
Critical hit -- 3(1d10 (base) + 26 (STR) + 13 (misc) + 4 (on crits)) + 1d6 (good) + 4d6 (good burst) + 4d6 (light); average damage is 177.

using the 2+ hit methodology we get 17 hits for 48 each and 2 for 177 each in any group of 20 shots. Total damage is 1170.

R1/F18/c1:

Normal hit -- 1d10 (base) + 25 (STR) + 9 (misc) + 1d6 (good); average damage is 43.
Critical hit -- 3(1d10 (base) + 25 (STR) + 9 (misc) + 4 (on crits)) + 1d6 (good) + 4d6 (good burst) + 4d6 (light); average damage is 162.

Using the same 2+ hit methodology we get 16 hits for 43 points each and 3 for 162. Total damage is 1174.

Accounting for favored enemy brings the margin to an almost negligible 4 damage in 20 shots. The fighter build is improved by external sources of seeker and by increased base damage, but hurts more under fortification which should be considered if we're setting our enemy to devil bosses.

Giving each build a bloodstone and a 50% fort enemy,
R6/F13/c1 totals 1059.
R1/F18/c1 totals 1022.5.


This is why it's pointless to debate minutae of dps. The difference between the 6 ranger build and the 1 ranger build are minute, whether you accept Therigar's assumptions or mine.

[daniel7]

First, anyone building arcane archer and taking more than 1 ranger level does not know what they are doing.

That statement is incorrect. What is correct is that ranged builds with 6 or more ranger levels have lower dps (this statement is subject to change with each mod).

Your playstyle might affect your decision when picking a build. One great example of how playstyle should affect your decision is if you are a player that will often solo or duo quests then having 18 levels of ranger will give you the tools you need to do that easier.

Don't craft a radiance bow for your first greensteel bow. Radiance goes off on crits which is a rare thing when multishot is on timer.