Clarification request - Turbine wants solo farming at level 20?

[Riggs]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=294990

Suggestion post about removing scrolls from epic crafting, or making them drop like other items - in chests.

Right now scrolls ONLY dropping for a single person only encourages people to be greedy
- instead of having to get together and roll, under peer pressure not to be a loot ninja, or roll on something you dont really need - people get a scroll in their inventory for 'free' have no incentive to mention they are just going to go sell it say rather than actually use it - like say the other people in the quest who are helping them get that scroll might use it.

Ergo - people solo scroll farm a lot now. Or only run with people they trust - and then after a quest is maybe done, post an lfm for the final boss they need help with, or else they just keep going back over and over - solo, for scrolls.

So the question is - by providing a very strong incentive to solo epic content, or look for ways to exclude people until the end fight - is Turbine actively encouraging solo play? Or is is unintentional.

If it is unintentional it should be changed - assuming the premise that DDO is not supposed to be looking for more ways to solo rather than be a cooperative game.

If it is intentional - why is this one mechanic the only one like it? If Turbine wants to make a solo farming game why not add more opportunities to solo farm?

Encouraging solo farming reverses one of the reasons raids where changed form the glyph system to a 'everyone has a chance in the chest' type mechanic. Although the main problem with that system was that one person controlled the glyphs, not that 'only' 2 things dropped. Since in 12 person groups now very often less than 2 things drop.

Every single other loot mechanism in the game is something where everyone can loot it, and you get better odds for having MORE people in the group, not LESS.

So why bring it back for epic scrolls?

[azrael4h]

Everyone has a chance to pull a scroll now; it doesn't just "drop for a single person" as you say. While people may or may not put scrolls up for roll, this is normal for other areas in DDO, like Raid loot. Your loot is your loot, and it's not anyone else's decision on what you do with it; my loot is my loot, and I will do with it as I see fit. One of the quickest ways to get blacklisted is to insist that no one has right to the loot they pull except you.

There is no incentive to solo farm for epic scrolls now at all. Everyone has the same chance of getting the scrolls. This is not hardly a situation where only the raid leader gets the raid loot, and no one else gets any/only select guildies get any. Everyone in the group has an equal chance of getting a scroll to drop, the only difference from raid loot is that it drops in their inventory rather than in a chest. And changing that won't change people's willingness to put stuff up for a roll or not.

*edit*

Interestingly enough, I read a thread that seems to post the theory that turbine has actually made it harder to solo farm epic scrolls than farm in groups. Don't ask me if it's correct, I'm not running the numbers, or epics until they become legitimate and don't invalidate pretty much 90% of spells and abilities in the game.

[LordDamax]

Epic scrolls are just a symptom of the problem. The game is full of disincentives to group. There are SO many quests in the game that's easier with 1-3 than it is with 6. We spent 90 minutes in Bastion Elite last night... and wiped. Multiple times at the end fight.

The consensus after banging away at it for a while? It would have been easier with the WF barb and the WF wiz in there as the only 2 in the end fight. The other 4 of us just complicated matters.

And thats not the only thing in game that discourages grouping. Its frustrating to see in-game mechanics encourage people to exclude others.

[Hokiewa]

Epic scrolls are just a symptom of the problem. The game is full of disincentives to group. There are SO many quests in the game that's easier with 1-3 than it is with 6. We spent 90 minutes in Bastion Elite last night... and wiped. Multiple times at the end fight.

The consensus after banging away at it for a while? It would have been easier with the WF barb and the WF tank in there as the only 2 in the end fight. The other 4 of us just complicated matters.

And thats not the only thing in game that discourages grouping. Its frustrating to see in-game mechanics encourage people to exclude others.

It's just the latest "appearance" of a symptom. Grouping seemingly was to be encouraged when they introduced dungeon alert/"glancing blows". Then with the addition of dungeon scaling, store items etc... the shift went to soloing. Then with the introduction of TR it made somewhat sense to group more often.

I honestly believe that there is no real direction on anything anymore. Every "new" addition seems to simply contradict a previous one.

Either way, solo farming scrolls gives my sorc something to do.

[pHo3nix]

Epic scrolls are just a symptom of the problem. The game is full of disincentives to group. There are SO many quests in the game that's easier with 1-3 than it is with 6. We spent 90 minutes in Bastion Elite last night... and wiped. Multiple times at the end fight.

The consensus after banging away at it for a while? It would have been easier with the WF barb and the WF tank in there as the only 2 in the end fight. The other 4 of us just complicated matters.

And thats not the only thing in game that discourages grouping. Its frustrating to see in-game mechanics encourage people to exclude others.

There are not disincentives to group; there are disincentives to group with people/builds that would make your life in quests harder...

IT: scrolls farming is a nice thing to do when you haven't much time to play :)

[Therigar]

Regardless of system, if you can solo why wouldn't you?

And, if you can't solo, why wouldn't you group?

The drop mechanism and drop rates really have nothing to do with it.

The real issue is the same one that is in every other loot thread -- whose loot is it and how is it distributed. If you rub away all the other distractions that is what it comes down to.

I really wish Turbine would just hide the loot information from the group. It solves so many problems.

Good people get to be good people, "Hey, I just got a gizmo. I can't use it. Anyone need one?" Jerks get to be jerks, Hey! I just got a gizmo. I can't use it. Someone probably needs it. I think I'll sell it.

We get to make note of the good people. We never know about the jerks. It reduces all the drama. Well, on Khyber they will have to keep showing loot, but everywhere else.... :D

[azrael4h]

The real issue is the same one that is in every other loot thread -- whose loot is it and how is it distributed. If you rub away all the other distractions that is what it comes down to.

This. Some people seem to have an entitlement problem; that everything that drops should be passed to them if they can use it (or at least put up for a roll if they can use it). With TRs and oddball builds who can tell who can use things?

And Khyber is drama. Remove all loot from the game, and we can still find some drama. :P

[TheSwamper]

I don't know about epic scrolls, but I'm all for anything that makes the game more solo-friendly.

I know it's D&D. I know it's an MMO.

I enjoy teaming sometimes. I always, always, hate having to.

[tihocan]

Epic scroll farming is definitely the dumbest thing in the game IMO. It encourages solo farming in those few specific spots where you can have the highest kill/min possible, with the few specific builds who can actually solo them efficiently.
At least I can buy them off the AH, but still, I'd much prefer get my scrolls completing fun quests with other people.

[sweez]

I like the game giving me choices, instead of forcing me into grouping even when I'm in no mood for human interaction, or when I just have 5 minutes to kill before I'm busy again. Also, I actually think this game lacks enough high-end solo content for situations where there's nothing interesting on the LFM for HOURS (some of us play from Europe heh).

eVon1/4-eOOB-Desert chests-eWizking-eLast Stand-Sins of Attrition-SubT route gets boring after a while.

No, I'm not a people person, I don't put up LFMs myself.

[Ungood]

Like most MMO's, Turbine is "Trying things" and seeing if they work, and don't think their is idealism just because it is a game, it's a company with all the drama and BS that companies carry with them.

Just keep that in mind when you ask "What are they thinking?"

[IronClan]

Seriously how many times does it need to be pointed out? The game randomly distributes them, you don't need to do anything else. The guy who got the scroll won a random roll...

You didn't

You aren't entitled to his loot...

Just as you aren't entitled to the loot in the chest with his name on it.

Everyone helped, everyone got a chance, one person got the scroll. Move along nothing to see here, if the person doesn't need it or wants to put it up for a roll that's his or her choice.

IMO Turbine should put the scroll's loot roll into party chat, or use a system like LOTRO which lets you choose to roll on a drop, or not. But that said, re-rolling is still silly.

[Schmoe]

Actually, this raises a question for me.

When a monster dies in an epic quest, which of the following is correct?

A.) Every player has an X% of getting a scroll added to his inventory. A single monster could (theoretically) generate 6 epic scrolls!

B.) A single scroll has an X% of being generated. If it is generated, one random party member will have the scroll added to his inventory.

C.) Something else.

[tihocan]

Actually, this raises a question for me.

When a monster dies in an epic quest, which of the following is correct?

A.) Every player has an X% of getting a scroll added to his inventory. A single monster could (theoretically) generate 6 epic scrolls!

B.) A single scroll has an X% of being generated. If it is generated, one random party member will have the scroll added to his inventory.

C.) Something else.
It's supposed to be B.

[Cyr]

I certainly am not a fan of content design that encourages people to avoid grouping. Scroll drops certainly place a strong incentive on going it alone.

An easy way to eliminate this counter incentive while still allowing people to solo for scrolls if they feel like being bored is to change the scroll drop mechanics to instead of rolling a % for a single scroll each time a mob is killed to instead have it roll that same % per person in the party. That way it makes sense to actually run with groups if you want scrolls, just like pretty much every other thiing in the game.

Encouraging solo play is bad game design. MMO's keep people playing in large part due to the social aspects of the gaming. If you are better off being alone then this benefit to MMO's bottom lines is drastically reduced. The proper way to approach the solo vs. group question is that you want to make solo play rewarding, but always less rewarding then group play. In this manner you keep people who would have any inclination to group grouping a large amount of the time which keeps them playing longer.

[kernal42]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=294990
So the question is - by providing a very strong incentive to solo epic content, or look for ways to exclude people until the end fight - is Turbine actively encouraging solo play? Or is is unintentional.


It's an unintentional consequence of encouraging people to actually kill epic mobs. Without scrolls dropping, I'd run through epic quests faster just hypnotizing everything and moving on. This behaviour is even worse than the application of some incentive to solo-farm.

Also, you should really try to understand that the process of scroll dropping for someone is fundamentally no different than a seal or shard dropping in someone's name. The only difference arises because scrolls are unbound and can therefore be traded.

Cheers,
Kernal

[T-Town_Titan]

Past 2 nights...2 full runs...no scrolls (Wiz king)....one run with no seals or shards as well.

Not to fuel your fire or anything Riggs as I know your hard at work on the post to get Monks "Greataxe as monk weapon" for me..so carry on Soldier ;)

[Schmoe]

It's supposed to be B.

If that is the case, then solo scroll farming is somewhat encouraged by the mechanics, at least for those who have the means to do it.

[Riggs]

Past 2 nights...2 full runs...no scrolls (Wiz king)....one run with no seals or shards as well.

Not to fuel your fire or anything Riggs as I know your hard at work on the post to get Monks "Greataxe as monk weapon" for me..so carry on Soldier ;)

I keep trying to no avail.

But once monks get x4 crits on fists your greataxe will be meaningless mwahaaha!

I saw another thread where people ahve noticed a significantly lowered drop rate while soloing scrolls.

My guess would be somehow the odds are changed to like raids - a % chance per person, accompanied by a significantly lowered chance for a solo person to get scrolls.

Since taking scrolls out would cause issues - whats wrong with putting them in chests also?

[Riggs]

This. Some people seem to have an entitlement problem; that everything that drops should be passed to them if they can use it (or at least put up for a roll if they can use it). With TRs and oddball builds who can tell who can use things?

And Khyber is drama. Remove all loot from the game, and we can still find some drama. :P

That mentality is another issue, but related.

"Well i MIGHT TR one day into a caster, so my barb is going to take the caster ring, even though the caster in group RIGHT NOW needs it, not maybe, in a couple months, but now - so I am going to take it anyway and I dont care if the other person can ACTUALLY use it vs my gimpy hybrid build that isnt going to be doing much anyway so its going to be wasted on him."

More or less - while some people have good builds, and a firm plan for TR - many are just TRing because they can, and want an item they are only going to use for like 1 level , hit cap, then TR again into something else and the item is wasted.

Or people have the mentality that "Well that paladin ring would be good for the paladin - but I do need the +1 cha on my fighter because I might get .5 more intim - so I am going to roll and take an item designed to give a set bonus to paladins because I am too selfish to realize the item wont really do me any good anyway"

The point of people actually gathering around and rolling on something is at least the group can put some peer pressure on a moron and tell them "No in fact your fighter doesnt need the archmage ring, the wizard can actually use it, you can go find a +6 int item somewhere else" - or "You want to roll on this cleric item scroll and you have no clerics? How about AFTER you TR into one, and are the one healing this run - THEN you roll on it? Rather than try and take it from the cleric who is here NOW, needs it NOW, and saved your behind already?Hmmm?"

One is about reasonable fair play, and one is about "Screw the people I am running with, I need to be a hoarder - or even I know I can sell it - so I dont care about the people that I am running with".

Anyway, enough ranting for one thread.

[Riggs]

Seriously how many times does it need to be pointed out? The game randomly distributes them, you don't need to do anything else. The guy who got the scroll won a random roll...

You didn't

You aren't entitled to his loot...

Just as you aren't entitled to the loot in the chest with his name on it.

Everyone helped, everyone got a chance, one person got the scroll. Move along nothing to see here, if the person doesn't need it or wants to put it up for a roll that's his or her choice.

IMO Turbine should put the scroll's loot roll into party chat, or use a system like LOTRO which lets you choose to roll on a drop, or not. But that said, re-rolling is still silly.

So..your argument is that I should be happy with someone else getting a scroll in the group...

When the OP is about scroll farming encouraging people to solo to avoid that? (And I meant other people, I dont play DDO to sit around soloing epic scrolls all day)

You know that solo means - 'no group' right?

Reading comprehension ftw.

[Riggs]

Actually, this raises a question for me.

When a monster dies in an epic quest, which of the following is correct?

A.) Every player has an X% of getting a scroll added to his inventory. A single monster could (theoretically) generate 6 epic scrolls!

B.) A single scroll has an X% of being generated. If it is generated, one random party member will have the scroll added to his inventory.

C.) Something else.

I have never heard of multiple people getting a scroll yet, and if it hasnt happened by now....

I think Turbine should have more solo options at all levels, not a ton, but some.

However crafting ingredients probably should not be one of them.

[Aaxeyu]

The reason scrolls drop from mobs is that otherwise players would do anything and everything to skip trash mobs in epic.
So I think the solo farming is ultimately an uintended consequence of the silly HP epic trash mobs have.

[kernal42]

i Have Never Heard Of Multiple People Getting A Scroll Yet, And If It Hasnt Happened By Now....


Fyi:



Some Odd Observations:

On Two Occasions In 2 Man Parties, I Have Seen With My Own Eyes Two Different Scrolls Drop For Two Different People From The Same Mob.

[Lorz]

That mentality is another issue, but related.

"Well i MIGHT TR one day into a caster, so my barb is going to take the caster ring, even though the caster in group RIGHT NOW needs it, not maybe, in a couple months, but now - so I am going to take it anyway and I dont care if the other person can ACTUALLY use it vs my gimpy hybrid build that isnt going to be doing much anyway so its going to be wasted on him."

More or less - while some people have good builds, and a firm plan for TR - many are just TRing because they can, and want an item they are only going to use for like 1 level , hit cap, then TR again into something else and the item is wasted.

Or people have the mentality that "Well that paladin ring would be good for the paladin - but I do need the +1 cha on my fighter because I might get .5 more intim - so I am going to roll and take an item designed to give a set bonus to paladins because I am too selfish to realize the item wont really do me any good anyway"

The point of people actually gathering around and rolling on something is at least the group can put some peer pressure on a moron and tell them "No in fact your fighter doesnt need the archmage ring, the wizard can actually use it, you can go find a +6 int item somewhere else" - or "You want to roll on this cleric item scroll and you have no clerics? How about AFTER you TR into one, and are the one healing this run - THEN you roll on it? Rather than try and take it from the cleric who is here NOW, needs it NOW, and saved your behind already?Hmmm?"

One is about reasonable fair play, and one is about "Screw the people I am running with, I need to be a hoarder - or even I know I can sell it - so I dont care about the people that I am running with".

Anyway, enough ranting for one thread.

Ah but Riggsy, That same peer pressure has also lead to people being pressured to give up loot.
You cannot only use the example as a positive for it has also many times been used to take from others what was theirs. Im not saying you do this....its hard to apply pressure only through typed words...but you and i both know others who have and do such things.

Now if you will kindly hand over that item...i have a firm plan to TR and will need it for exactly 3 days....thank you very much :)

[Kinerd]

Actually, this raises a question for me.

When a monster dies in an epic quest, which of the following is correct?

A.) Every player has an X% of getting a scroll added to his inventory. A single monster could (theoretically) generate 6 epic scrolls!

B.) A single scroll has an X% of being generated. If it is generated, one random party member will have the scroll added to his inventory.

C.) Something else.It appears to be A. I don't know if it's ever been stated specifically one way or another by a developer, but the data supports A.

[SardaofChaos]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=294990

Suggestion post about removing scrolls from epic crafting, or making them drop like other items - in chests.

Right now scrolls ONLY dropping for a single person only encourages people to be greedy
- instead of having to get together and roll, under peer pressure not to be a loot ninja, or roll on something you dont really need - people get a scroll in their inventory for 'free' have no incentive to mention they are just going to go sell it say rather than actually use it - like say the other people in the quest who are helping them get that scroll might use it.
Scrolls never dropped in multiples before, and there is an announcement that a scroll went to x player. Scrolls will not drop unless a monster is killed, therefore the only way a player could get it for free is to pike. Why are you doing epics with pikers?
Ergo - people solo scroll farm a lot now. Or only run with people they trust - and then after a quest is maybe done, post an lfm for the final boss they need help with, or else they just keep going back over and over - solo, for scrolls.
This is not a result of anything Turbine has done, it is a result of poor knowledge of statistics on the playerbase.
So the question is - by providing a very strong incentive to solo epic content, or look for ways to exclude people until the end fight - is Turbine actively encouraging solo play? Or is is unintentional.
Turbine didn't do anything of the sort.
If it is unintentional it should be changed - assuming the premise that DDO is not supposed to be looking for more ways to solo rather than be a cooperative game.
Nothing needs to be changed.
If it is intentional - why is this one mechanic the only one like it? If Turbine wants to make a solo farming game why not add more opportunities to solo farm?
This is a good question. Why do scrolls drop differently from everything else in the game? You could answer this with "because they're extremely rare but need to be more common"(that could be explained better with more words but whatever) but such a response begs the question "Why do they need to be so much more rare than the other two pieces?"
Encouraging solo farming reverses one of the reasons raids where changed form the glyph system to a 'everyone has a chance in the chest' type mechanic. Although the main problem with that system was that one person controlled the glyphs, not that 'only' 2 things dropped. Since in 12 person groups now very often less than 2 things drop.
This is an entirely different subject precisely because of the extremely different way scrolls drop from anything else.
Every single other loot mechanism in the game is something where everyone can loot it, and you get better odds for having MORE people in the group, not LESS.

So why bring it back for epic scrolls?
Main problem with your post: there are two reasons for the correlation between rising soloing and the change in scroll mechanics.
1) Players who have poor knowledge in the area of statistics believe this suddenly gives them much less chance of getting scrolls.
2) Players who understand statistics also understand that some people are ****s and will keep any and all scrolls they get regardless of whether or not they are going to do anything with them.
Turbine changed it so that people couldn't be anonymous ****s and ninja scrolls. The fact that people still find a way to be ****s does not mean that Turbine is asking you to solo everything.

[IronClan]

When the OP is about scroll farming encouraging people to solo to avoid that? (And I meant other people, I dont play DDO to sit around soloing epic scrolls all day)

You know that solo means - 'no group' right?

Reading comprehension ftw.

Why is it whenever an OP around here posts something ranting or a little emotionally driven and maybe not all that well thought out, everyone ELSE has a reading comprehension problem? :rolleyes:

Rememebering your own OP FTW:


- instead of having to get together and roll, under peer pressure not to be a loot ninja, or roll on something you dont really need - people get a scroll in their inventory for 'free' have no incentive to mention they are just going to go sell it say rather than actually use it - like say the other people in the quest who are helping them get that scroll might use it.

Ergo - people solo scroll farm a lot now.

Clearly your OP has nothing to do with the loot gen mechanism :rolleyes: well except where you specifically mention it and all...

First of all there's no need to "get together" the roll has already been done, there's no "free" to it everyone (presumably) earned a shot as the loot gen, and one (or more maybe?) actually won the random assignment.

Second you have not established a causal relationship between the present scroll drop mechanism and increased solo'ing. Your basis for making this conclusion seems to be non-existent or anecdotal at best. Yet you seem to be blaming the random automatic assignment... I would be incined to blame the fact that any self sufficient character can pop into a quest and beat on a few mobs as something to do to kill a little time, or have some fun waiting for a good LFM...

[IronClan]

Oh BTW:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3537896#post3537896

[quityourjobs]

The most disappointing part of this system is that the best way to now improve my Barbarian (or my Bard), is to roll up a caster and solo-farm scrolls, not actually play that character.

[voodoogroves]

The most disappointing part of this system is that the best way to now improve my Barbarian (or my Bard), is to roll up a caster and solo-farm scrolls, not actually play that character.

My bard sees more epic play than my other characters. My wizard requires some gear to be more useful in epics, but isn't going to be as successful getting it as my bard. Or my monk, who can hit higher stuns with less investment.

This was before any changes to scroll mechanics.

Wasn't it Junts a while back who talked about bringing the right character to the job instead of "whatever" in one of these epic-play threads?

... and as Grodon999 points out the reality is that epics, in general, are biased towards some very specific concepts working "best" and in general epics need that much-awaited reboot.


Personally - I do a few runs on my wizard in epics - mostly raids - though my bard does more epic raids. Most epic questing I do with my cleric or monk. My rogue gets very little epic play - except for some very specific situations.

[IronClan]

The most disappointing part of this system is that the best way to now improve my Barbarian (or my Bard), is to roll up a caster and solo-farm scrolls, not actually play that character.

This doesn't actually appear to be the case, see the thread linked above your post.

[Dwarfo]

whats really depressing is when i did an epic chrono yesterday, one of the clerics walked in and said he had to go afk, piked there the whole time - then during the crossbow demon fight, he got the only epic scroll...we finished but it was really upsetting that he did no work and got an epic scroll.

[SardaofChaos]

whats really depressing is when i did an epic chrono yesterday, one of the clerics walked in and said he had to go afk, piked there the whole time - then during the crossbow demon fight, he got the only epic scroll...we finished but it was really upsetting that he did no work and got an epic scroll.

And this kind of thing is why a votekick would be a good idea, provided it required a supermajority(not just a majority) of the players currently in the quest agreed. It would be inactive until the 5th person joined in order to keep the supermajority requirement.

[Raolin_Darksbane]

I really don't see how the changes to how scrolls drop have encouraged solo farming of scrolls.

I was solo farming scrolls on sarlona well before these changes came into play - I have no problem believing the only reason the changes were implemented were to prevent ninja looting of scrolls laying on the ground by party members. If anything, the previous system encouraged solo play as you could let the scroll sit there while soloing without having to worry about someone picking it up. With the new system there's no worry - the system rolls for everyone randomly and someone gets it - fair enough for me.

Let's also remember that you can't simply epic an item with a scroll alone. You need the shard and the seal and while I can solo farm for scrolls, I sure as hell don't do too well at running the whole quest solo. Yeah i'm sure if i took the time to do so, and had a ton of mnemonics to burn then I could do it - but why bother? Also consider the fact that with a full group, there's 5 other people who have a chance of pulling a shard or seal that I need. Maybe it's been luck, but most of the groups i've run with on Sarlona, have been pretty good about putting shards/seals up for roll if they don't need them right away.

If anything, it "seems" like the drop rate got lowered this past update whether solo play or grouping. The past 2 von1 runs i've done, we cleared every mob in there except for audience members after the quest, and got absolutely 0 scroll drops.

This thread topic really seems to be someone "reading between the lines" on a totally blank page.

[Riggs]

I really don't see how the changes to how scrolls drop have encouraged solo farming of scrolls.


And no where was that said anyway.

The fact that scrolls drop for single players from the start encourages solo farming, and as said by several - certain classes are better at it than most.

[Riggs]

Fyi:

Ok, so one person has noticed it, twice.

maybe it has happened more than that, but no one is talking about it?

Considering how low a chance scroll drops are now, the odds of 6 people getting a scroll is probably in the millions to one range = which gamewise is effectively 0% anyway.

[Riggs]

The reason scrolls drop from mobs is that otherwise players would do anything and everything to skip trash mobs in epic.
So I think the solo farming is ultimately an uintended consequence of the silly HP epic trash mobs have.

I posted in another thread one fix is to have every single kill drop a token fragment.

Kill 100 = 1 token.

Problem solved, people 'have a reason to kill stuff' again.

On a larger scale, the fact that Turbine designs so may quests where you dont actually have to kill much of anything is a design issue as well.

but instead of better AI we got DA....

[quityourjobs]

This doesn't actually appear to be the case, see the thread linked above your post.

If you only need scrolls it is.

[bryanmeerkat]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=294990

Suggestion post about removing scrolls from epic crafting, or making them drop like other items - in chests.

Right now scrolls ONLY dropping for a single person only encourages people to be greedy
- instead of having to get together and roll, under peer pressure not to be a loot ninja, or roll on something you dont really need - people get a scroll in their inventory for 'free' have no incentive to mention they are just going to go sell it say rather than actually use it - like say the other people in the quest who are helping them get that scroll might use it.

Ergo - people solo scroll farm a lot now. Or only run with people they trust - and then after a quest is maybe done, post an lfm for the final boss they need help with, or else they just keep going back over and over - solo, for scrolls.

So the question is - by providing a very strong incentive to solo epic content, or look for ways to exclude people until the end fight - is Turbine actively encouraging solo play? Or is is unintentional.

If it is unintentional it should be changed - assuming the premise that DDO is not supposed to be looking for more ways to solo rather than be a cooperative game.

If it is intentional - why is this one mechanic the only one like it? If Turbine wants to make a solo farming game why not add more opportunities to solo farm?

Encouraging solo farming reverses one of the reasons raids where changed form the glyph system to a 'everyone has a chance in the chest' type mechanic. Although the main problem with that system was that one person controlled the glyphs, not that 'only' 2 things dropped. Since in 12 person groups now very often less than 2 things drop.

Every single other loot mechanism in the game is something where everyone can loot it, and you get better odds for having MORE people in the group, not LESS.

So why bring it back for epic scrolls?

Hi , my name is math , you dont like or understand me it seems , but I dont want to hate you .

[Lord_WC]

Right now scrolls ONLY dropping for a single person only encourages people to be greedy
- instead of having to get together and roll, under peer pressure not to be a loot ninja, or roll on something you dont really need - people get a scroll in their inventory for 'free' have no incentive to mention they are just going to go sell it say rather than actually use it - like say the other people in the quest who are helping them get that scroll might use it.

Sorry, maybe it's me but whenever I hear this reasoning 'i need that scroll more than you do and i blacklist you if you roll on it' comes to my mind. Exchange it to 5 guildies rolling on the scroll against you and swapping it later for your own leisure.
If anything this change encourages group play since right now I have exactly the same chance to get a scroll if I solo, if I pug, if I join 5 members of the same guild.

That said I rarely pug farming runs, I'd rather do it with my friends. We need different scrolls and there will be no hassle or drama if any of us pulls one of the high valued scrolls. Can't see how this change affected that previously everyone on their sane mind would've been rolling on a marilith chain scroll rather than passing it saying 'i don't need it'. For junk scrolls sure, but I don't think people get all anal about those.


Ergo - people solo scroll farm a lot now. Or only run with people they trust - and then after a quest is maybe done, post an lfm for the final boss they need help with, or else they just keep going back over and over - solo, for scrolls.

So the question is - by providing a very strong incentive to solo epic content, or look for ways to exclude people until the end fight - is Turbine actively encouraging solo play? Or is is unintentional.

If it is unintentional it should be changed - assuming the premise that DDO is not supposed to be looking for more ways to solo rather than be a cooperative game.

If it is intentional - why is this one mechanic the only one like it? If Turbine wants to make a solo farming game why not add more opportunities to solo farm?

I strongly belive this change was for the better. By assigning the scrolls immediately Turbine filtered out the only unfair factor from it: the players. No more ninjas, no more scroll policemen, no more proxy rolling.
Making someone giving up a scroll from his/her inventory is weak. Making someone not roll on a scroll was accepted. How are these different?



Encouraging solo farming reverses one of the reasons raids where changed form the glyph system to a 'everyone has a chance in the chest' type mechanic. Although the main problem with that system was that one person controlled the glyphs, not that 'only' 2 things dropped. Since in 12 person groups now very often less than 2 things drop.

Every single other loot mechanism in the game is something where everyone can loot it, and you get better odds for having MORE people in the group, not LESS.

So why bring it back for epic scrolls?
Again, everyone has the same chance to get scrolls, regardless of the circumstances. Everyone can 'loot' it.
Or you have problems with the accessability?
Well, I fail to see why a barb couldn't farm wizking entrance with a hireling. I do it on my monk regulary and can't say his stunning fist is glorious. A barb shouldn't have problems with pulling mobs and stunning them with his 70+ str.
It takes more time yeah. But getting into a raid on a rogue vs a cleric is harder as well. Anyone asking for raid mechanics change because some classes are not or not that much required?

And there is the usual answer as well. Rolling a sorc and leveling him to 20 takes about one week...
You can put up lfms that 'all scrolls will be rolled on'. If this won't fill, maybe people actually LIKE the new change ;)

[IronClan]

If you only need scrolls it is.

If you want less of a chance at a scroll AND only need scrolls... sure... That thread is interesting, I'm quite sure you didn't read it based on your quote. Let me sum it up for you It appears that solo farming scrolls leads to much lower drops than farming them in groups...

[Emili]

Seriously how many times does it need to be pointed out? The game randomly distributes them, you don't need to do anything else. The guy who got the scroll won a random roll...

You didn't

You aren't entitled to his loot...

Just as you aren't entitled to the loot in the chest with his name on it.

Everyone helped, everyone got a chance, one person got the scroll. Move along nothing to see here, if the person doesn't need it or wants to put it up for a roll that's his or her choice.

IMO Turbine should put the scroll's loot roll into party chat, or use a system like LOTRO which lets you choose to roll on a drop, or not. But that said, re-rolling is still silly.

I've literally hundreds of epic dungeon tokens in my bags. I've a decent amount of seals and shards – most mis-match and a few dozen pairs? However, comes scrolls I usually no luck – three epic items among my 13 level 20's and I think I have a little over half a dozen scrolls... But I run only completes.


If you want less of a chance at a scroll AND only need scrolls... sure... That thread is interesting, I'm quite sure you didn't read it based on your quote. Let me sum it up for you It appears that solo farming scrolls leads to much lower drops than farming them in groups...

... and I read such also... but the sample they portray small and inconclusive... last few days - I've 10 runs of chronos completed - full groups - one scroll dropped within 10... while I know a guildie been farming chronos small 3 man groups in past three days he's five scrolls. Go figure.

People still farm scrolls outside of full group, and often farm them with not completing the quests... the general consensus however seems to be – or here-say I should tell – is that a scroll will drop per approximately 100 mob killed on the average, matters not with who or what. Given this idea I could understand some people assume the more mob to themselves the more likely the scroll be theirs.


Regardless of system, if you can solo why wouldn't you?

And, if you can't solo, why wouldn't you group?

The drop mechanism and drop rates really have nothing to do with it.

The real issue is the same one that is in every other loot thread -- whose loot is it and how is it distributed. If you rub away all the other distractions that is what it comes down to.

I really wish Turbine would just hide the loot information from the group. It solves so many problems.

Good people get to be good people, "Hey, I just got a gizmo. I can't use it. Anyone need one?" Jerks get to be jerks, Hey! I just got a gizmo. I can't use it. Someone probably needs it. I think I'll sell it.

We get to make note of the good people. We never know about the jerks. It reduces all the drama. Well, on Khyber they will have to keep showing loot, but everywhere else.... :D

Is a point of expediting reward... be it loot, xp, favour whatever... some quests are just simplier to go alone while sometimes is quicker if in a good group... divide and conquer. The quicker the better yields more rewards over the same time-frame.


It's just the latest "appearance" of a symptom. Grouping seemingly was to be encouraged when they introduced dungeon alert/"glancing blows". Then with the addition of dungeon scaling, store items etc... the shift went to soloing. Then with the introduction of TR it made somewhat sense to group more often.

I honestly believe that there is no real direction on anything anymore. Every "new" addition seems to simply contradict a previous one.

Either way, solo farming scrolls gives my sorc something to do.

TR actually made me solo more. ;) Was much easier to guarantee my XP going much of it alone or with just a few trusted friends.

[IronClan]

And no where was that said anyway.

The fact that scrolls drop for single players from the start encourages solo farming, and as said by several - certain classes are better at it than most.

Remember where you used the word "ergo"? Immediately preceding that conclusion was the premise that the scroll drop mechanic (the present one) was responsible for what you concluded after that word "ergo" which means "therefore" or "therefore I conclude" Here let me show you:


instead of having to get together and roll, under peer pressure not to be a loot ninja -<snip> people get a scroll in their inventory for 'free'

The you wrote:

Ergo - people solo scroll farm a lot now.

This explicitly* blames the present loot drop mechanic and obviously also implicitly* excludes the old mechanic. ERGO: you are blaming the present mechanic in your OP.

(*see underlined words)

Now you're backing out, because you realize there's little to no logical connection in what you were ranting about and your conclusion...

People solo because they can't commit time to a group, or they don't like grouping, or they like the challenge, or they are only doing a short farming run to waste some time... Or whatever.

If they are solo farming because the 'free scroll' might drop in someone elses inventory without the chance to "gather around and roll" then they don't understand the present mechanic.

If they are solo farming because they think they'll get more scrolls, they probably should read the thread I linked, or do some testing themselves, because it appears that solo farming scrolls is a good way to get less scrolls than while grouping. It may still be desirable because of the previously stated reasons, but it does not appear to be encouraged by turbine at any rate...

[kernal42]

Ok, so one person has noticed it, twice.

maybe it has happened more than that, but no one is talking about it?

Considering how low a chance scroll drops are now, the odds of 6 people getting a scroll is probably in the millions to one range = which gamewise is effectively 0% anyway.

That's not the point.

The point is that, when a monster dies, every character has an independent "do I get a scroll?" check. If this weren't the case, only a single scroll would ever drop. Given the low drop rate of scrolls, of course getting two from one monster will be extremely unlikely, but we already knew that.

-Kernal

[Raolin_Darksbane]

Remember where you used the word "ergo"? Immediately preceding that conclusion was the premise that the scroll drop mechanic (the present one) was responsible for what you concluded after that word "ergo" which means "therefore" or "therefore I conclude" Here let me show you:



The you wrote:


This explicitly* blames the present loot drop mechanic and obviously also implicitly* excludes the old mechanic. ERGO: you are blaming the present mechanic in your OP.

(*see underlined words)

Now you're backing out, because you realize there's little to no logical connection in what you were ranting about and your conclusion...

People solo because they can't commit time to a group, or they don't like grouping, or they like the challenge, or they are only doing a short farming run to waste some time... Or whatever.

If they are solo farming because the 'free scroll' might drop in someone elses inventory without the chance to "gather around and roll" then they don't understand the present mechanic.

If they are solo farming because they think they'll get more scrolls, they probably should read the thread I linked, or do some testing themselves, because it appears that solo farming scrolls is a good way to get less scrolls than while grouping. It may still be desirable because of the previously stated reasons, but it does not appear to be encouraged by turbine at any rate...

Thanks for posting that so I didn't have to :)

[EustaceTrevelyan]

Everyone has a chance to pull a scroll now; it doesn't just "drop for a single person" as you say. While people may or may not put scrolls up for roll, this is normal for other areas in DDO, like Raid loot. Your loot is your loot, and it's not anyone else's decision on what you do with it; my loot is my loot, and I will do with it as I see fit. One of the quickest ways to get blacklisted is to insist that no one has right to the loot they pull except you.

There is no incentive to solo farm for epic scrolls now at all. Everyone has the same chance of getting the scrolls. This is not hardly a situation where only the raid leader gets the raid loot, and no one else gets any/only select guildies get any. Everyone in the group has an equal chance of getting a scroll to drop, the only difference from raid loot is that it drops in their inventory rather than in a chest. And changing that won't change people's willingness to put stuff up for a roll or not.




Yeah, when you think about it, how often does the harder raid loot drop for multiple people in a given chest anyway? This is like that.

[T-Town_Titan]

Not too scientific but past 2 days...over 700 kills..party size 2-4..no scrolls (wiz king & ADQ)..last week..full party...2-3 scrolls with < 300 kills. Tired of wasting time farming with no return..not sure if I'll give up or just roll full parties...probably the later just to satisfy this conspiracy theory.

[HettarDDO]

To say that Turbine made things worse is just plain wrong and really unfair. The solution they came up with solved a huge problem. Now that we all have played with the new system and seen a couple negative things that it can cause people think it's a bad thing. For those people I say this...

Turbine listened to the problems the old system was causing. They came up with a solution. It's not perfect but it's fair to everyone. The old way was really bad and in no way fair to everyone. Bottom line is that their solution to the problem works and if given a choice I can't see why anyone would want to go back to the old way. Unless you were one of the ninja looters.

I will say that people don't put scrolls they don't need up for roll anymore. I don't get as many scrolls I need like I used to because of it. A person has the right to do whatever they want with the loot they receive but it's nice when people can help each other. People still put seals and shards they don't need up for rolls alot of the time but not scrolls.

It's not Turbine's fault if people don't want to help each other. It's your choice to give others a chance to get something they really need when you get something you really don't need.