Stunning Helf Rogue

[Emizand]

Not a build as such just an idea/concept I am toying with. Could stunning blow work on a Halfelf rogue? Not used stunning blow much, but the benefits of auto crit to a rogue are obvious, so could it work? How often would SB proc, would it be useful early on and useless later, or could it work all the way up to epic? I won't be able to squeeze in pesh, but will have access to all martial weapons. Yes the gear could be better, but this is just a rough draft so doesn’t include anything other than +2 tomes and +6 items.

Str 17 +1 HE enh, + 1 Dil enh, +2 tome, +6 item, +5 lvl,
Dex 15 +3 enhance, +2 tome, +6 item,
Con 15 +1 HE enh, +2 tome, +6 item
Int 11 +1 tome
Wis 8
Cha 8


Half-Elf Strategy (Stunning Blow) I + II


Feats

Toughness
Two Weapon Fighting
Stunning Blow
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Critical
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Power Attack
Rogue: Crippling Strike
Rogue: Improved Evasion
Rogue: Opportunist
Rogue: Skill Mastery

Thanks

Emi

[karl_k0ch]

Does the dazed condition ensure sneak attacks? (I am assuming it does.)

Which weapons did you have in mind? Picks? Or Rapiers/Scimitars?
If you would use rapiers, the autocrit part of SB is not that awesome since rapiers are only x2 weapons. Also, a RadII would also ensure sneak attacks without having a timer or a DC.
If you would use picks, you are much more dependent on SB than with any other weapon.

[Emizand]

Probably use them all.

Will get rad on rapier, scim, kukri. Will get earthgrab on picks. As I said the only weapon of note that will be missing is pesh.

[TheDearLeader]

Well, something to consider.

Stunning Blow is a Fort Save. Meaning in the same quest, it will work on some mobs, and may not on others. Melee mobs such as a nasty troll will have a relatively high Fort save, while the Drow Arcane Caster will not.

Stunning Blow DC = 10 + Str Mod + Item + Enhancements.

Your Str @ level 20 would be 32 Base, according to your numbers.
Step it up with some buffs that may or may not end up being available to you...
Rage +2, Ship Buff +2, Madstone +2, Exceptional Str +2.
That's 40 Str, possibly. So your ability mod is +15 at this point?

Your enhancements give you +2.

So 10 + 15 + ? + 2 = 27 Base. 37 with a Stunning +10 Light Mace in the offhand.

Most Monks get their Stunning Fist around 39-42. So while slightly less effective, you could reasonably expect to be able to stun most Casters, and occasionally melee.

Remember that Stunning Blow is a 15 Second timer, however, whereas the Monk's Stunning Fist is 6 seconds. I know some monks end up taking both, and Kukan-do, to have the ability to theoretically have three stunned mobs at once.

While leveling, it could be useful. A stunned non-epic mob tends to drop fast.

The biggest problem with using a Stunning TWF Melee that is not a monk, in my opinion, is weapon choice. Picks are the best choice for use on an auto-crit mob. Picks, however, don't have Stunning +10 mods, as only Bludgeoning weapons have Stunning +10. This means you're causing the ideal situation, but only if you're using non-ideal weaponry.

One possibility for this build may be Main-handing a Deathnip, Bloodstone in the trinket (Weapon and Item Seeker stack), and +10 Stunning Light Mace in the off hand, preferably Icy Bursted to add to most trash DPS. The Improved Crit feat would go to Piercing, to assist the Deathnip in situations that are not-autocrit, and you're seeking max damage.

In Epic Parties with reliable caster CC (they hold them before you can manage to stun them), off hand could be either another Deathnip, or perhaps a Shock/Good Burst/Shocking Blast Lit II Heavy Pick.

Edit : The part in Light Blue is incorrect. My apologies.

[NaturalHazard]

Well, something to consider.

Stunning Blow is a Fort Save. Meaning in the same quest, it will work on some mobs, and may not on others. Melee mobs such as a nasty troll will have a relatively high Fort save, while the Drow Arcane Caster will not.

Stunning Blow DC = 10 + Str Mod + Item + Enhancements.

Your Str @ level 20 would be 32 Base, according to your numbers.
Step it up with some buffs that may or may not end up being available to you...
Rage +2, Ship Buff +2, Madstone +2, Exceptional Str +2.
That's 40 Str, possibly. So your ability mod is +15 at this point?

Your enhancements give you +2.

So 10 + 15 + ? + 2 = 27 Base. 37 with a Stunning +10 Light Mace in the offhand.

Most Monks get their Stunning Fist around 39-42. So while slightly less effective, you could reasonably expect to be able to stun most Casters, and occasionally melee.

Remember that Stunning Blow is a 15 Second timer, however, whereas the Monk's Stunning Fist is 6 seconds. I know some monks end up taking both, and Kukan-do, to have the ability to theoretically have three stunned mobs at once.

While leveling, it could be useful. A stunned non-epic mob tends to drop fast.

The biggest problem with using a Stunning TWF Melee that is not a monk, in my opinion, is weapon choice. Picks are the best choice for use on an auto-crit mob. Picks, however, don't have Stunning +10 mods, as only Bludgeoning weapons have Stunning +10. This means you're causing the ideal situation, but only if you're using non-ideal weaponry.

One possibility for this build may be Main-handing a Deathnip, Bloodstone in the trinket (Weapon and Item Seeker stack), and +10 Stunning Light Mace in the off hand, preferably Icy Bursted to add to most trash DPS. The Improved Crit feat would go to Piercing, to assist the Deathnip in situations that are not-autocrit, and you're seeking max damage.

In Epic Parties with reliable caster CC (they hold them before you can manage to stun them), off hand could be either another Deathnip, or perhaps a Shock/Good Burst/Shocking Blast Lit II Heavy Pick.

how about a +10 stunning warhammer? ok bad choice for off hand but warhammers are *3.

[Emizand]

Thanks leader, just the information I was looking for.

[TheDearLeader]

how about a +10 stunning warhammer? ok bad choice for off hand but warhammers are *3.

Possible/plausible. But without the Oversized Two Weapon Fighting Feat in the build, the to-hit penalties might be detrimental to a Rogue. Being able to hit and stun > Better crits after a stun. I think you're hinting at that, though, at the same time as asking. :D

[Jonny_D]

One possibility for this build may be Main-handing a Deathnip, Bloodstone in the trinket (Weapon and Item Seeker stack).

Pardon my ignorace, but since when?

[Burtle]

Sorry for the trolling, but I had to do a double take on the title of the thread... "Stunning Helf Rogue" my brain wasn't working at first and all I could say to myself...
"how much as the OP had to drink and which version of the Helf did he find stunning" :D

Sorry :cool:

[Calebro]

Pardon my ignorace, but since when?

The description in the Wiki is worded so that many people make this mistake. The description is clear to me, but I've seen arguments about this before because of the wording.
They do not stack.

[edit]
Found the thread where this argument arose before. Here. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=294632)
The wiki has since been updated to remove all doubt.

[TheDearLeader]

Pardon my ignorace, but since when?


The description in the Wiki is worded so that many people make this mistake. The description is clear to me, but I've seen arguments about this before because of the wording.
They do not stack.

[edit]
Found the thread where this argument arose before. Here. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=294632)
The wiki has since been updated to remove all doubt.

Ah, then I stand corrected. Apologies.

So either Bloodstone in the trinket, or Deathnip. Its rather nice, actually, because it pretty much halves the cost of having to gear this toon.

[krud]

Stunning Blow is a Fort Save. Meaning in the same quest, it will work on some mobs, and may not on others. Melee mobs such as a nasty troll will have a relatively high Fort save, while the Drow Arcane Caster will not.

The biggest problem with using a Stunning TWF Melee that is not a monk, in my opinion, is weapon choice. Picks are the best choice for use on an auto-crit mob. Picks, however, don't have Stunning +10 mods, as only Bludgeoning weapons have Stunning +10. This means you're causing the ideal situation, but only if you're using non-ideal weaponry.
this

My human 13rog/4ftr/3pal was a tactics rogue build before I LR'd him. Stunning blow worked fairly well up until amrath. With a +10 weapon casters were usually auto stun, higher fort mobs were stunned more than 50% of the time. I usually kept the tenderizer (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Weapon:Tenderizer) in my offhand and a radiance rapier in my main. The frequency of stuns plummetted when amrath came out (casters were 50:50, high fort mobs less than 25%), and I never bothered to try in epic (I specced out of stunning blow before then). IIRC my DC was ~34 or 35

[Feithlin]

Not a build as such just an idea/concept I am toying with. Could stunning blow work on a Halfelf rogue? Not used stunning blow much, but the benefits of auto crit to a rogue are obvious, so could it work? How often would SB proc, would it be useful early on and useless later, or could it work all the way up to epic? I won't be able to squeeze in pesh, but will have access to all martial weapons. Yes the gear could be better, but this is just a rough draft so doesn’t include anything other than +2 tomes and +6 items.


You'd better go for Dwarf race imo. You'll have up to +3 to tactics DC from enhancements and a better con.
Attributes would be: Str 18 Dex 15 Con 16 Int 10 on a 32-points char.
Final Str would be something like 34 (38) = 18 + 5 level + 2 tome + 6 item + 3 exc. Str (+ 2 rage + 2 ship buff)
For a Stunning DC of 37 = 10 base + 10 stunning weapon + 14 str + 3 tactics enh.
Similar to your proposition, but in addition you would have a final Con of 26 (30) = 16 + 2 race enh. + 2 tome + 6 item (+ 2 rage + 2 ship buff) and up to 4 toughness enhancements.

[TheDearLeader]

You'd better go for Dwarf race imo. You'll have up to +3 to tactics DC from enhancements and a better con.
Attributes would be: Str 18 Dex 15 Con 16 Int 10 on a 32-points char.
Final Str would be something like 34 (38) = 18 + 5 level + 2 tome + 6 item + 3 exc. Str (+ 2 rage + 2 ship buff)
For a Stunning DC of 37 = 10 base + 10 stunning weapon + 14 str + 3 tactics enh.
Similar to your proposition, but in addition you would have a final Con of 26 (30) = 16 + 2 race enh. + 2 tome + 6 item (+ 2 rage + 2 ship buff) and up to 4 toughness enhancements.

He'd be missing the proficiency with Martial Weapons that the Helf : Fighter Dilettante grants.

Also, due to the Dilly feat, he's getting 2 "Tactics" Enhancements in already. So he's losing out on a feat for only one extra tier of tactics, and some HP. Which really, if he cared about the HP, he could just take another toughness with that extra feat.

[Jaid314]

He'd be missing the proficiency with Martial Weapons that the Helf : Fighter Dilettante grants.

Also, due to the Dilly feat, he's getting 2 "Tactics" Enhancements in already. So he's losing out on a feat for only one extra tier of tactics, and some HP. Which really, if he cared about the HP, he could just take another toughness with that extra feat.

not to mention that Helf lets him add +2 to strength iirc (1 from human adaptability, 1 from fighter dilletante, no?) which is equal to +1 DC. added in to the half-elf fighter dilettante stunning blow tactics enhancement, that equals out +3 from dwarf.

[TheDearLeader]

not to mention that Helf lets him add +2 to strength iirc (1 from human adaptability, 1 from fighter dilletante, no?) which is equal to +1 DC. added in to the half-elf fighter dilettante stunning blow tactics enhancement, that equals out +3 from dwarf.

I will even further add that Dwarven Tactics I, II, and III are 2,4, and 6 AP, respectively, where the Dilly Stunning Blow Tactics I and II are 1 and 2 AP. So, cheaper AP.

[Feithlin]

Dwarf and Helf end up with the same Stunning blow DC.

+ Dwarf enhancements also increase the trip DC.
+ Dwarf ends up with up to +4 Con (+2 from race, +2 from enhancements) and +20 HP (Toughness III & IV), so 60 HP.
- Dwarf needs to use Master's Touch scrolls on the pick and the stunning warhammer at the beginning of each quest (no a big issue though: the price of the scrolls is low and they can be bought in Portable hole).
- Dwarf have a lower str (-1 from Helf & -1 from dilettante); that won't affect the stun DC but will slightly reduce damage.

So basically, the trade off is 60 HP vs. +2 Str. I still feel dwarf would be a better choice, but it's only my opinion, that doesn't affect the build a lot.

[Emizand]

Yeah but Dorfs are short, hairy and smelly!

-2 dex for Dorf and only -3 con for helf.

[Jaid314]

Dwarf and Helf end up with the same Stunning blow DC.

+ Dwarf enhancements also increase the trip DC.
+ Dwarf ends up with up to +4 Con (+2 from race, +2 from enhancements) and +20 HP (Toughness III & IV), so 60 HP.
- Dwarf needs to use Master's Touch scrolls on the pick and the stunning warhammer at the beginning of each quest (no a big issue though: the price of the scrolls is low and they can be bought in Portable hole).
- Dwarf have a lower str (-1 from Helf & -1 from dilettante); that won't affect the stun DC but will slightly reduce damage.

So basically, the trade off is 60 HP vs. +2 Str. I still feel dwarf would be a better choice, but it's only my opinion, that doesn't affect the build a lot.

actually, half-elf also gets trip enhancements with fighter dilletante. and the combined cost of helf trip and stunning blow is the same as dwarven tactics cost.