Rare Drops and Defeat.

[Ungood]

At some point, you have to admit that there is something just wrong with the system. There is no question that we all play these games for rewards, be they in the form of gear, items, exp, or what have you. We seek because in the end of things we wish to find.

However, when a Game and drop system is designed to prevent you from finding what you seek, that is the pinnacle of a problem. And while I, like everyone, enjoy a bit of "Work" to get what I want, that is what makes it fun in most cases. However, there is a big fat line between a fun challenge and outright tedium.


http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z166/Ungood_Images/DDO/DDOIgiveup.jpg

Ok. I "Stripped the Box of everything of Value" and still did not get the item of value I was looking for. Well, I guess, the designers and developers want to inspire players to give up by making such obscene rarity to sought after items.

Respect and all to the power gamers that have quested after these super rare items and ran quests 100 times for said item and think that is what a game is supposed to be.

However, as a casual gamer, I see this game is stacked against me, and designed to deprive me (and others like me) of gear that is very beneficial to the characters I have in their game world.

Well, before all you go and jump on me, I would like to say for the record, this is the second time I have stripped this chest.


http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z166/Ungood_Images/DDO/DDOIgiveup2.jpg

So, you all win. I give up on this.

Apparently, the way the programmers have this system geared, is that these items are only for the select few, that have been determined by some means or mechanic.

There are many posts about the general disapproval regarding the nature of the rarity of sought after named drops, so this is not an unknown issue to Turbine, or to the DDO staff.

Just one more thing I suppose that is disenchanting me more and more from this game.

[voodoogroves]

Not to poke this topic; you've only ransacked Palumak's chest twice? Ever?

Some items are frustrating to farm, but there rarity is somewhat part of the appeal. It isn't fun if it is too easy. Frankly, I'm glad not everyone has a bloodstone.

[Veileira]

I got a SS ring my second time at the General and can't get boot ings to drop for me at all. These things happen.

[Phidius]

Another thing to note is that once you start getting the "Ransack" message, you can stop trying - you'll not receive any named items while you are "Ransacked".

At this point, I stop hitting that chest until 7 days have passed from the first time I opened the chest, then I do it again.

I have no idea how many times you have to loot a chest to get the "Stripped" message, but I think it's 8 times for ransacked.

[lazylaz]

I just recently had my first (and still only) Ring of Spell Storing drop last week. I have a few bloodstones now (or 3 if that coubts as a few) over my characters, and a few other bits and pieces of rare desert loot.

But once my guys level out of there I stop bothering with it. They miss out and I don't have any regrets about it.

[Khellendros13]

Take all those bloodstone runs, and think about how much plat you could of made farming IQ or Shroud in that same time. You could then buy a bloodstone.

Or ransack OOB, easy to solo and Spectral Gloves drop a fair bit and a fair trade for Bloodstone, most tend to have luck with one or the other.

Tedium is ransacking the desert everyday - consider the empty chest as an incentive to go and run a quest or raid.

[In_Like_Flynn]

Wait a week. Try again. Easy.

[MrCow]

Out of curiousity, would you have engaged the desert looting for the Bloodstone if you were informed it has a 1% drop rate (cited from Rodrak's data diving contact during Update 5)?

[Ungood]

Not to poke this topic; you've only ransacked Palumak's chest twice? Ever?

Some items are frustrating to farm, but there rarity is somewhat part of the appeal. It isn't fun if it is too easy. Frankly, I'm glad not everyone has a bloodstone.

Like I said, respect to the powergamers.

However, to be fair, Is that what a game is really supposed to be? Where you have to ransack and strip a chest, time and time and time again in a repetitive endless loop of tedium and pays for this honor? Abet, I'll give you, that sound more like someone getting played.

However, Games are built off the idea of entertainment, to give us a world and a place we can go where we can escape from the drudgery of our everyday life. A little fantasy world of Engagement equals Reward, so much unlike our real world lives that we want to escape to. Now, If the reward is removed or made nigh unobtainable by just playing and having fun, and there is dreadful need to endlessly grind for items to only be denied what we were seeking to begin with. Then is there to inspire engagement in this world?

Which is exactly the point of my post.

You scoff at the idea that I stripped a chest twice and did not get what I was looking for. Why should it even be to that point? There is no Joy in stripping a chest and coming up with nothing for your efforts. Zip on the Enjoyment factor. Why should I have to even strip the chest once? Much less twice, or however many times you much have stripped it in your quest to get a bloodstone.

Why would I want to even continue playing, knowing that is what I am facing?

More power to the people that like reward-less tedium in their games. I for one can't stand it.

By the many posts about it, The drop rate is a known issue among the player base, and it alienating the player base, and as that continues to happen, they will move on and spend their money on games that give rewards, that makes them feel like they are accomplishing something (Even if it is just a virtual accomplishment) and allows them some fun enjoyable game time without feeling this need to endlessly grind for nothing. Your accomplishing s noted, but if the players leave, then what you did will be for naught too.

And for the record, I did twice in a week (Not including the countless other times my other characters have done the sands for both exp and rare farming, but most of them were not as effective at it as Ungood is at being able to strip a chest)

[MRH]

Patient : Doctor it hurts when i push here

Doctor : Then dont push it


DDoer : This chest isn't giving me anything anymore im Ransacked !

DDO : Then stop going out there and let it reset

[NaturalHazard]

At some point, you have to admit that there is something just wrong with the system. There is no question that we all play these games for rewards, be they in the form of gear, items, exp, or what have you. We seek because in the end of things we wish to find.

However, when a Game and drop system is designed to prevent you from finding what you seek, that is the pinnacle of a problem. And while I, like everyone, enjoy a bit of "Work" to get what I want, that is what makes it fun in most cases. However, there is a big fat line between a fun challenge and outright tedium.


http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z166/Ungood_Images/DDO/DDOIgiveup.jpg

Ok. I "Stripped the Box of everything of Value" and still did not get the item of value I was looking for. Well, I guess, the designers and developers want to inspire players to give up by making such obscene rarity to sought after items.

Respect and all to the power gamers that have quested after these super rare items and ran quests 100 times for said item and think that is what a game is supposed to be.

However, as a casual gamer, I see this game is stacked against me, and designed to deprive me (and others like me) of gear that is very beneficial to the characters I have in their game world.

Well, before all you go and jump on me, I would like to say for the record, this is the second time I have stripped this chest.


http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z166/Ungood_Images/DDO/DDOIgiveup2.jpg

So, you all win. I give up on this.

Apparently, the way the programmers have this system geared, is that these items are only for the select few, that have been determined by some means or mechanic.

There are many posts about the general disapproval regarding the nature of the rarity of sought after named drops, so this is not an unknown issue to Turbine, or to the DDO staff.

Just one more thing I suppose that is disenchanting me more and more from this game.

it took me so long to get a blood stone. i think it might of been faster for me to farm amarath iq ect for trash loot to sell to make the plat to buy a bloodstone :P

[Ungood]

Out of curiousity, would you have engaged the desert looting for the Bloodstone if you were informed it has a 1% drop rate (cited from Rodrak's data diving contact during Update 5)?

Yes. But, the end would be same. I would look for it, realize quickly that there is only a 1% chance is both discouraging and disappointing.

Which just so happen to be, two words that should not be associated to a game meant for entertainment and enjoyment. Wouldn't you agree?

[Ungood]

Take all those bloodstone runs, and think about how much plat you could of made farming IQ or Shroud in that same time. You could then buy a bloodstone.

Or ransack OOB, easy to solo and Spectral Gloves drop a fair bit and a fair trade for Bloodstone, most tend to have luck with one or the other.

Tedium is ransacking the desert everyday - consider the empty chest as an incentive to go and run a quest or raid.

I am more looking at it, like "Finding another game to play"

I mean it's depressing. I have not gotten anything. All I have gotten is like some coronation shields and few falcata's, and that is it.

[MRH]

Well don't let it come to that, the loot gods will shine on you when they feel like it.

Case in point : had an extra bloodstone and gave it to a friend..... we went to run OOB, stopped at BS chest, opened and boom pulled a bloodstone. Then during the OOB run.... pulled spectrals.

what comes around goes around, and don't stress trying to find the named loot. Run your quests have fun and in due time things will come.

[Serakan]

ddo has no end game worth mentioning, so they simply make the drop rates absurd to compensate. Everyone simply accepts it because they are, well, a bunch of freaking video game addicts. Pretty simple, boring and monotamous. Now go run 50 more shrouds you!

[Krag]

I am more looking at it, like "Finding another game to play"

I mean it's depressing. I have not gotten anything. All I have gotten is like some coronation shields and few falcata's, and that is it.

I look at it the other way.
The game protects you from burning out fast by encouraging you to run different content.

[sirgog]

Out of curiousity, would you have engaged the desert looting for the Bloodstone if you were informed it has a 1% drop rate (cited from Rodrak's data diving contact during Update 5)?

Given that people ransacked it before we heard that information, yes (most people that discussed that drop rate believed 0.5% to be the drop rate prior to that information coming in).


I've given up on several items. My criteria isn't solely drop rate - it's 'do i enjoy farming this?'

And so I have given up on the Mysterious Bauble but still hunt for +3/+4 tomes that have a much lower drop rate, but drop in raids I enjoy running.

[NaturalHazard]

Given that people ransacked it before we heard that information, yes (most people that discussed that drop rate believed 0.5% to be the drop rate prior to that information coming in).


I've given up on several items. My criteria isn't solely drop rate - it's 'do i enjoy farming this?'

And so I have given up on the Mysterious Bauble but still hunt for +3/+4 tomes that have a much lower drop rate, but drop in raids I enjoy running.

If someone really doesnt like farming bloodstones do you think its worthwhile to run other quests and raids untill you have enough plat or items to trade for one?

[sirgog]

If someone really doesnt like farming bloodstones do you think its worthwhile to run other quests and raids untill you have enough plat or items to trade for one?

IMO the only sensible way to try to get a Bloodstone is to run the top lootruns (Shroud, epic VON6, all-optionals Sins of Attrition, Wrath of the Flame, and scrollfarming Epic Chronoscope or on some toons Epic ADQ1) to get other items, then trade for the Bloodstone.

Bloodstones are criminally undervalued for their drop rate and usefulness at endgame.

[Xeraphim]

It took me looting the Palumak and Thirsty One chests a combined total of 969 times to pull a Bloodstone.

Don't give up.

I'm up to close to 1400 now with only 1 Bloodstone to my account. The other one I bought for a devil scale and bound to my rogue while drunk.

[learst]

Given that people ransacked it before we heard that information, yes (most people that discussed that drop rate believed 0.5% to be the drop rate prior to that information coming in).


I've given up on several items. My criteria isn't solely drop rate - it's 'do i enjoy farming this?'

And so I have given up on the Mysterious Bauble but still hunt for +3/+4 tomes that have a much lower drop rate, but drop in raids I enjoy running.

I was in weapons shipment run once (i've run this bout 4-5 times now), and a wizzie toon managed to pull it on her first time running the quest. :P

[shadowhop]

Let me just say if you don't like to farm don't do it.

You don't NEED a bloodstone to survive the end game content.

[Gremmlynn]

I am more looking at it, like "Finding another game to play"

I mean it's depressing. I have not gotten anything. All I have gotten is like some coronation shields and few falcata's, and that is it.Well if this is all the game has left for you to enjoy, it would seem if you had gotten one you would be looking for a new game to play anyway. If it's not, then give it a break and farm it more casually. It's a nice item, but nothing one can't live without. Basically, something to keep the power gamers playing.

[donfilibuster]

Might be your choice of wording but you read like feeling entitled to all the loot in the game and in short term.
You question the ransack mechanic but attack the game and not the mechanic itself, which is in place for some reason or another.
I imagine you'd be equally outraged at raid timers?

Players may find the ransack mechanic earlier in the game, at the harbor when their first toon is still poor and figure that repeats of ringleader or irestone gives fast loot.
In those circumstances it is perfectly clear and understanable that you are simply not supposed to repeat the quest so much.
The mere idea leaves no room to think about the game being unfair or a big grind, etc. that comes later but ransack is not even a big part of the whole picture.

Here's more toughts (toughts!), because u made many posts and points:

Games may be a lot of things, fun, entertainment, challenge, etc. but games of chance are games too, and fun, and entertaining.
You can't expect to win the lottery even once, yet people keeps playing it isn't it? and going to casinos?
Granted some go sick, some go broke, and some do go frustrated all right, but it is still a game.

The rare items are part of the game. Rare means rare, you are not supposed to have those items unless you get lucky.
Know items have a value in rarity, in fantasy games there's such things as unique items, that only one person can have ever.
Again it'd be the winning of the lottery, it is not something remotely guaranteed, and for every bloodstone on auction there's a huge amount of players without one.
If there's many players having a bloodstone is because it has been years since sands was added.

Raid loot is different here, you get to choose from a fixed list.
But eardweller? yet that's proof there's hope in that threads like these can actually make the devs alter the drop rate.
On the rarer rare items, players just move on and keep leveling the way to 20, every new toon and every new TR you get to play sands again and give the chest a new chance, then move on.
The complain about not having a rare item only holds true the first life of your first toon, afterwards everyone knows that farming loot with the capped toon is a large enough income to go buy whatever items you missed in the way so you get ready for the TR.

But i agree the MMO thing can blur all this, i blame MMOs on that idea about Engagement equals Reward.
Did you got that idea playing other MMOs? The devs surely picked the idea of selling colors from other MMOs.
DDO for good or bad is part D&D despite the effort of the devs to make it like a MMO.
If you absolutely must have that kind of game then you are logical and correct in thinking you shouldn't continue playing.

In d&d the quests are done to play them with your hero, not to collect every single perk and shiny like in a number of games i know about but won't mention.
The MMO loot lures are still there to make you hooked and give turbine more money, that kind of player base is obviously alienated and you can effectively pass the feedback to the devs, who in many cases have made the quests easier upon requests.
Yey two wrongs don't make a right, and playing a game for the rewards alone is surely one of those half truths in which millions of people doing it doesn't make them right.

[ValdeBeren]

i always treated Bloodstone farming as a "i got 10 mins spare, not enough time to quest, so i'll go hit up the 3 sands chests" sort of thing, rather than actively repeating runs to ransack

didnt work on my first toon, then my 2nd capped toon pulled 5 in a few months - that same toon has however never pulled a +3 tome from 40+ reavers, didnt get any +3 offered from vod 40th, so its all swings and roundabouts

if its not dropping for one toon, try another, or trade for it, or just move on and build around the arrowhead/gem of many facets/marilith chain etc

[NaturalHazard]

It took me looting the Palumak and Thirsty One chests a combined total of 969 times to pull a Bloodstone.

Don't give up.

I'm up to close to 1400 now with only 1 Bloodstone to my account. The other one I bought for a devil scale and bound to my rogue while drunk.

i think that you got a good price there.

[Baloran]

I actually like the new named loot approach the game is taking. In the newer packs (Red Fens, Attack on Stormreach) the drop rate is much higher BUT most of the named items are bound to character. That way you have to farm on each toon you need/want the items on and you experience a lot of different content during the leveling process, whereas when very rare drops are bound to account you can farm them once and pass them to all the toons who actually need them and therefore possibly won't run that specific content with a new toon anymore.

Cheers

Baloran

[JDCrowell]

Here's the way things seem to work for me:

I farmed my bloodstone for a long time. never even cared for the raid out there. then one day I decide to flag myself for DQ. After soloing Wiz. king, I decided to see if the rares were up. ran to the mephit....not up (not fighting anything, just running), ran to thirsty.....he's up but as I attack I realized I had aggro'd nearly the entire undead area.

After an epic battle on my Exploiter, I open the chest and there it is. A bloodstone just for me. All by myself and no party to witness it.

This is why I still farm for it on my other toons. The sense of accomplishment and the feeling that you have conquered something

Since then he can't pull anything rare, while my FvS seems to get anything he wants....including a mysterious bauble (second run of weapons shipment might I add).

[Lord_WC]

Bloodstones are criminally undervalued for their drop rate and usefulness at endgame.

Bloodstones are found in a chest which every lvl10+ toon can get, it is dead easy to farm (probably boredom is you biggest opponent) and I have a gut feeling that there are more bloodstones out there then the demand for them. I'd say the price is fair for a rare drop which can be farmed reliably and fast on a mid-level toon.

[pHo3nix]

Got 1 bloodstone the week after i ransacked the chest once on my monk, and a SSR in the same run. The fastest and easiest way to got items not bound is to trade large ingredients for them..just run shroud 4-5 time and you probably can trade the larges you got for 2 bloodstones ;) And if Bloodstone dropped after just 1 ransack for all it would be worth a lot less than it is now, considering that if you got a group to disband and regroup you can get ransack in max 1 hour..

[Vanshilar]

If you haven't yet you should probably check out this link:

The business model behind DDO (and all MMOs) explained... (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=296014)

Unfortunately, yes, at some point with an MMO, when you've played through the quests a couple of times and they're no longer as exciting or fresh, the way they have people continue to play is to make you grind for longer and longer periods of time for less and less benefit for your character. So such mechanics are no accident. It's more or less up to the player if they think the time invested in trying to get a small increase in DPS (for example) is worthwhile to them, as opposed to spending their time doing other stuff like playing different builds or whatever. But at some point, when that is exhausted as well, the only thing really that's left for the player is...to do the same thing over and over in the hope that the next time, they'll get lucky.

The tricky thing for the company is to fine-tune the drop rates such that people are still willing to farm, yet rare enough that it takes time to do so and that the market isn't inundated with such items. Unfortunately, different people can only stomach different amounts of farming before they get frustrated and find something else better to do. Given that a significant amount of the playerbase is still willing to farm for bloodstones though (if there weren't, then their AH prices would be through the roof), the developers are unlikely to visit the drop rates for such items.

On the other hand, epic scrolls, in which a player has to kill literally thousands of epic monsters to get the scroll they want, are a different story. But that's something for the developers to consider -- at some point, when the grind is perceived as being too long, even for powergamers to be willing to sit through for months on end, then they'll lose those players that are most likely to be dedicated to gaming, to find something else more fulfilling to do.

[sirgog]

Bloodstones are found in a chest which every lvl10+ toon can get, it is dead easy to farm (probably boredom is you biggest opponent) and I have a gut feeling that there are more bloodstones out there then the demand for them. I'd say the price is fair for a rare drop which can be farmed reliably and fast on a mid-level toon.

Same could be said for Scroll of the Gloves of the Claw (ok, that does require a level 20, but any 20 can farm the first wave in Last Stand, hell the NPCs can almost do the first wave without you).

[Lord_WC]

Same could be said for Scroll of the Gloves of the Claw (ok, that does require a level 20, but any 20 can farm the first wave in Last Stand, hell the NPCs can almost do the first wave without you).

Probably there are numerous times more lvl10-19 toons in this game having sands than lvl20s having red fens;)

Also scrolls have like 1%/killed mob to drop? If their drop rates are all the same that scroll has about 0.04% chance.

[bryanmeerkat]

You can go find another game if you like as you suggest , if you choose an mmorpg be prepared for there to be items that are hard to get there too .

Why are you trying so hard to get a bloodstone ? Do some quests they are far more fun . Check the chest as and when you are running wizking .

[Ungood]

i always treated Bloodstone farming as a "i got 10 mins spare, not enough time to quest, so i'll go hit up the 3 sands chests" sort of thing, rather than actively repeating runs to ransack

didnt work on my first toon, then my 2nd capped toon pulled 5 in a few months - that same toon has however never pulled a +3 tome from 40+ reavers, didnt get any +3 offered from vod 40th, so its all swings and roundabouts

if its not dropping for one toon, try another, or trade for it, or just move on and build around the arrowhead/gem of many facets/marilith chain etc

Auctually I was looking for the Ring of Spell Storing, I don't care about the bloodstone, beyond perhaps an item to trade for the Ring, however, Palmark was just the first chest I hit in the run, so I took a SS of that.


Let me just say if you don't like to farm don't do it.

You don't NEED a bloodstone to survive the end game content.

Well if this is all the game has left for you to enjoy, it would seem if you had gotten one you would be looking for a new game to play anyway. If it's not, then give it a break and farm it more casually. It's a nice item, but nothing one can't live without. Basically, something to keep the power gamers playing.

You can go find another game if you like as you suggest , if you choose an mmorpg be prepared for there to be items that are hard to get there too .

Why are you trying so hard to get a bloodstone ? Do some quests they are far more fun . Check the chest as and when you are running wizking .

At one time, I would have passed on this same advice. But, now I ask, why give this advice? is it really sound advice or is it just a mimic of what you have been told when you faced the same situation?

And while, I will not challenge your advice, I have a question regarding it.

"What would be the motive or inclination that would dive me to explore other content that has the same kind of stonewalling mechanic regarding loot drops as the content that is currently discouraging me?"

This is what is rolling around in my head, as I look at this.

[AZgreentea]

However, as a casual gamer, I see this game is stacked against me, and designed to deprive me (and others like me) of gear that is very beneficial to the characters I have in their game world.
What do you consider to be casual gaming? Just interested, since I have never really seen it discussed. I play about 4 hours a week, and I consider myself a casual gamer. In that time, it would be a real effort to Ransack a single chest (I haven't after a year of playing). From my point of view, anything more than about 8 hours a week is no longer 'casual' since that would be a normal work day.

[sirgog]

Why are you trying so hard to get a bloodstone ? Do some quests they are far more fun . Check the chest as and when you are running wizking .

Bloodstone is one of the most important items for an endgame melee character. In autocrit situations, it adds a ridiculous amount of damage to every attack and there is just no substitute for it (except maybe the Arrowhead, which is a bigger grind than the Bloodstone and on a melee usually is a weaker item).

[Ungood]

Might be your choice of wording but you read like feeling entitled to all the loot in the game and in short term.
You question the ransack mechanic but attack the game and not the mechanic itself, which is in place for some reason or another.

I question the logic of both, but mainly the idea of making something insanely rare is like tantalizing a person, like holing out an item to them, and then as they reach for it, you snatch it away just to see how many times they will try for it.


I imagine you'd be equally outraged at raid timers?

Raid Timers and obscene % on rare drops have nothing in common. Maybe to you the do, but I don't see the relation.


Players may find the ransack mechanic earlier in the game, at the harbor when their first toon is still poor and figure that repeats of ringleader or irestone gives fast loot.
In those circumstances it is perfectly clear and understanable that you are simply not supposed to repeat the quest so much.

Wrong! If that was the case, they would not make you have to repeat the quest/instance to get a rare item. That that is the major fault in your stand.

Since they do make the item very rare, they WANT you to have to repeat the quest endlessly, and then put in mechanics to stop you.

The rest of your posts, is along the same line. It is a great way to discourage players. And iuf your logic was fair, all named/rare drops should be BtC, because, it's not supposed to be open to everyone.


i blame MMOs on that idea about Engagement equals Reward.

You blame MMO's really for that idea. You must think it is a bad idea then, right?

So by this logic, you play for no reward? You play this game to gain nothing from your efforts? Please, You have to tell me, if not for reward, why do you play this game?

[Vyder]

Look on the bright side, you can kill the one or two knolls on the way out there and complete your knoll slayer without even ever going into the knoll area.:)

[Cyr]

Two times ransacking a chest...if only that was the biggest grind in DDO:(

[Ungood]

What do you consider to be casual gaming? Just interested, since I have never really seen it discussed. I play about 4 hours a week, and I consider myself a casual gamer. In that time, it would be a real effort to Ransack a single chest (I haven't after a year of playing). From my point of view, anything more than about 8 hours a week is no longer 'casual' since that would be a normal work day.

Anywhere from 2 hours a week, to 2 hours a day is about casual, there is a bit of blur rover from casual to moderate. And it took me about 2 hours to strip those chests (I am not uber fast about it either).

But it was a weekend gaming run where I just wanted to play for a bit. Was hoping to get something good. And got nothing but a week wait and feeling of having wasted my time even trying.

[SirShen]

Took me 4 years to get a bloodstone. I had given up a long time ago. Also never had an SS ring.

Iv had lots of tomes drop for me, so its just down to luck and seeming im good at rolling very roll, i dont win that often but when i do wow it makes it very special.

[The-Last-Wolf]

And it took me about 2 hours to strip those chests (I am not uber fast about it either).

Hi OP, I have to admit that sounds suspect.

Are you saying you went from nothing to ransacked on a rare that only appears every 2-3 runs in 2 hours, whilst also hitting other rares in the area?

That sounds uber fast to me.

Regards
Wolf

[PNellesen]

Look on the bright side, you can kill the one or two knolls on the way out there and complete your knoll slayer without even ever going into the knoll area.:)

+1 for making me laugh.

[KraahgDaAxe]

Hi OP, I have to admit that sounds suspect.

Are you saying you went from nothing to ransacked on a rare that only appears every 2-3 runs in 2 hours, whilst also hitting other rares in the area?

That sounds uber fast to me.

Regards
Wolf

I don't know about the 2-3 runs in 2 hours bit. I can run Palumak, General, Thirsty One, Ele Rare and the other Mummy Rare in the very back in about 4 minutes. If the chest isn't there, I just keep running. I usually only get two rares out of those 5 at a time, and the Ele rare and Palumak seem the most prevalent. Then it's just an recall, repair, instance reset from a guildie and back in to do it again. All in all, I can do two full runs in 15 minutes if I have to put up an LFM for an instance reset.

Kraahg

[Khanyth]

Alright everybody.... settle down.

Mr. Berry... Mr. Buck.... Mr. Mills.... take your places..... Mr. Stipe, you can sit this one out.

Using 3/4ths of my good friends in the band REM.... I'd like to sing you all a little song. Of course, if you know the words.... please, sing along.

I'd like to call this one:

"Everybody Ransacks"

When the farming takes too long and the night, the night hours just waste away,
When you're sure you've had enough of this game, well hang on.
Don't let yourself ragequit, everybody ransacks and everybody doesn’t get their desired drop sometimes.

Sometimes everyone tells you your toon is built wrong. Now it's time to log on to an alt.
When your day is spent farming, (hold on, hold on)
If you feel like rage quitting, (hold on)
When you think getting this **** item has taken up too much of this life, well hang on.

Everybody ransacks. Take comfort in your alts.
Everybody ransacks. Don't break your keyboard. Oh, no. Don't break your keyboard.
If you feel like you’ll never get this item, oh, oh, oh, eventually you will.

If you think that this only happens to you, and you’ve forgotten how many runs you’ve done,
When you think you've had too much of this game not to Ragequit.

Well, farming rare items sucks sometimes,
Everybody ransacks. And everybody gets ****ed off that they don’t get their item sometimes.
And everybody ransacks sometimes. So, hold on, hold on.
Hold on, hold on. Hold on, hold on. Farm on, Farm on. (repeat & fade)
(Everybody ransacks. You are not alone.)

[The-Last-Wolf]

I don't know about the 2-3 runs in 2 hours bit. I can run Palumak, General, Thirsty One, Ele Rare and the other Mummy Rare in the very back in about 4 minutes. If the chest isn't there, I just keep running. I usually only get two rares out of those 5 at a time, and the Ele rare and Palumak seem the most prevalent. Then it's just an recall, repair, instance reset from a guildie and back in to do it again. All in all, I can do two full runs in 15 minutes if I have to put up an LFM for an instance reset.

Kraahg

Hi Kraahg,

You seem to have misread my post. I said a rare that only appears every 2-3 runs (something you seem to agree with), not only being able to do 2 -3 runs in 2 hours.

I am interested in the numbers you quote as that sounds like a good fast run.

So, 2 in 15mins = 8 per hour

2 hours gives us 16 runs with the rare appearing on avg 6-7 times. Is that enough to ransack it?

Regards Wolf

[Loromir]

Hi OP, I have to admit that sounds suspect.

Are you saying you went from nothing to ransacked on a rare that only appears every 2-3 runs in 2 hours, whilst also hitting other rares in the area?

That sounds uber fast to me.

Regards
Wolf

Not really uber...I have ransacked in 2 hours, but I only run to Pulumak, Thirsty one, The General & Errulf on my loops. It seems that Pulumak spaws about 80%, but thirsty one only 20%. The General and Errulf are both about 50% spawn rate. At least that is my experience. I also hit Thumok in my runs because it is so easy to get to him right after Thristy one.

[KraahgDaAxe]

Hi Kraahg,

You seem to have misread my post. I said a rare that only appears every 2-3 runs (something you seem to agree with), not only being able to do 2 -3 runs in 2 hours.

I am interested in the numbers you quote as that sounds like a good fast run.

So, 2 in 15mins = 8 per hour

2 hours gives us 16 runs with the rare appearing on avg 6-7 times. Is that enough to ransack it?

Regards Wolf

Apparently I did misunderstand. My mistake.

Personally I have no idea how fast it ransacks, I usually quit after 4 or so, as except for the weekends I tend to not have a ton of time to play. And then I focus on leveling. I only do the runs now because I found recently I can quickly solo them. If a BS or Ring SS drops, so be it.

I can only do the runs at that speed cause I always have sprint boost on when available. I use all six on the run, so I don't have to fight what I don't want to fight, just blow right by them and they don't follow. Without a sprint boost it would probably take 2-3 more minutes or even double the time. And cept for the Ele rare, I tend to kill the rares in a few blows. many shot Palumak and he goes down after three "shots". Disruption weapons work very very well on mummies. Thirsty One doesn't seem to have alot of HP. The Ele Rare is a pain though, but can still be paralyzed.

Kraahg

[The-Last-Wolf]

Thanks guys,

I didn't realise you could ransack those chests that quickly. To be fair it takes me a bit longer than you guys to do that run so I probably only get about 5 runs an hour. and generally I don't farm for that long as I get bored and find an LFM.

Still good info to know

Regards
Wolf

[Ungood]

Hi OP, I have to admit that sounds suspect.

Are you saying you went from nothing to ransacked on a rare that only appears every 2-3 runs in 2 hours, whilst also hitting other rares in the area?

That sounds uber fast to me.

Regards
Wolf

Well, as a WF wiz, the run is pretty easy. If I was using my melee runners it would have taken much longer.

But the fast track is simple enough, you put on Shadow-walk, have a FR item on, and get FW ready. Run out into Sands, Hit Shadow walk, while running toss up FirePro, and NightShield, and then FW/Wail the Box droppers. Since I am only hitting 4 spot per run (Palmark/Mad/Thirsty/General), as Ozzan has nothing of worth to me as far as this is concerned. After I am done GT back to refuge to save time, Join/Disband, Run out again. I could get around 4 - 5 runs on one bar of mana. Takes me roughly 6 min to run the circle (Gonna go time this now, Not sure anymore, I thought it was 6 min, gonna go make a run really quick - I can do it in 3 min 40 seconds, so lets just go with 6 min on average) so 20 runs in 2 hours. If I really pushed it, I can could do better, but I am not really an expert player. And it's taken me a while to get this system down. my first run I looked like a Goblin trying to play Mozart.

And to be fair, everything seemed to be up most times (I would get anywhere between 2 - 3 boxes on most runs, with a low point of only 1 being up rarely) but that might have been my perceptions. But get this, in the last strip run I did not get a single named item, zip, nothing. Not even that Falcata or Shield.

Maybe, it is just me. But this is getting disheartening.

[IronClan]

I got a BS on my 3rd ever trip into sands, not seen one since in hundreds of runs. while there are grinds in this game that need adjusting, (Tor scales for one) these rares aren't IMO one of them... for one thing you don't need a ridiculous amount (like 25 of one type of scale with 3 possible kinds that drop and lame drop rates per the time it takes to do a tedious quest), for another thing at level they are great loot, and easy to farm, and for another, when at cap they are still fabulous loot... something that's just as good to equip at 20th level as it is at mid levels should be fairly rare.

As for uber fast runs... having done it on multiple builds, lets realize that many builds will need absolutely zero down time between runs... My FvS needs no repairs (or even shrining) between runs. Max, empowered, quickened Blade Barrier, only usually have to cast three BB's per run (and only two if Thirsty is not up) don't need to sell or run off for ship buffs... probably could ransack in less than 2 hours if I tried...

* Enter sands, hit expeditious retreat clicky: run to Paco's chest, drop BB if it's up; if not run a little past the tomb next to it and drop a BB (keeps alert level down by one shotting most of the trash) I do not stick around to kite them unless I want the slayers.
* Recast Exp. Retreat.
* Run to Thristy, skirt spawns by hugging the left wall (spawns 1 less arcane and 3 less archers) peek at Thristy's chest WITHOUT going into the "room" (also spawns no arcane and 3 less archers) If I see no sparkles above the little half wall = no Thirsty... drop a BB if he's there.
* If he's not I hit Exp retreat clicky one last time and run off to General and let the mobs "tether" no need for a BB.
* Get to general and drop BB right away. If he's not up I don't "trigger" the three mummies on the slab and my BB kills the three Mephits that usually follow me in and would interupt my recall... if it is up my BB kills both them and the Mephits, either way I cast BB then loot/recall
* Drop group, reform (or hireling reset trick whichever the case may be)... Maybe this takes 4 minutes with not even a minute of downtime (recalling takes what 15 seconds?)

Pretty sure I could do it in 3 minutes if none of the rares happen to be up.

[Ungood]

I got a BS on my 3rd ever trip into sands, not seen one since in hundreds of runs. while there are grinds in this game that need adjusting, (Tor scales for one) these rares aren't IMO one of them... for one thing you don't need a ridiculous amount (like 25 of one type of scale with 3 possible kinds that drop and stupid low drop rates), for another thing at level they are great loot, and easy to farm, and for another, when at cap they are still fabulous loot... something that's just as good to equipped at 20th level as it is at mid levels should be fairly rare.

It's not easy of you can't get it.

At that point it is either "hard" or "tedious" perhaps both, but at least one. Easy to farm means "You can get one with some minor effort"

However!

You know what would be good! If they gave you the item upon stripping the chest. Like a final, "Last Loot", Here it is, take your pick, and then go away.

[IronClan]

It's not easy of you can't get it.

At that point it is either "hard" or "tedious" perhaps both, but at least one. Easy to farm means "You can get one with some minor effort"

However!

You know what would be good! If they gave you the item upon stripping the chest. Like a final, "Last Loot", Here it is, take your pick, and then go away.

That's the point though they are powerful (SSR and BS) thus rare, I am sympathetic to the cause of less grind... but blood stone can drop in two out of three chests with also a shot at a spell storing ring if you run a little further. That can be accessed by ANYONE solo, with a little tactics or cleverness, and all three chests can thoeretically be looted in 4-5 minutes by a 12th level character, alone they can be "zerged" without even causing a red alert.

Minimal time investment, minimal risk, minimal challange, maximal loot desirability in a maximal "loot density" (three chests with three small chances to get 2 VERY good items, plus some chance to get lesser but still good items (like Duskheart etc.) this must equal minimal drop rates...

Now take Tor for example, I'm up to 16 TOR runs in the last month without getting a single scale... not a single blue scale, a single ANY scale (except a white one that a nice player assigned over to me when they felt bad for my luck)...

That quest is LONG and boring, it takes a long time to run through the tedious overly easy trash fights only to hit the much HARDER Dragon/Giant boss pairs... so not only is it long and tedious,you stand a fair chance of finding out the pug is not going to be able to beat the bosses only after you do the tedious boring first part. On top of that you need 25 scales, and the things you make with those scales are predominantly cosmetic with only blue scale armor being particularly useful to healers.... So you have loot that is situational, needs 25 lucky drops to complete your reward, requires a boring stupid grind if you don't want to pay, and will wipe a bad pug after a large time investment keeping you from even getting a shot at one chest.

To me bloodstone runs are a relaxing thing to do while waiting for LFM's or to blow off the steam of a fustraiting Tor run that spent a half hour breezing through the first part only to wipe at the white dragon.

[Phidius]

... And it took me about 2 hours to strip those chests (I am not uber fast about it either)...

Here, let me try it another way.

If you loot the same chest 8 times in a row, that chest is now considered Ransacked - this means you will not ever pull a named item from that chest until the chest resets. Period. End of story. You can stop looting this chest for 7 days, unless you want to burn out.

To strip a chest, you must loot it 12 in a row. This means that you ran out there at least 4 times in a single day with ZERO chance at pulling a bloodstone.

OK, I'm sure 1,000 is an exaggeration, but I don't know how many times you have to loot a chest before it becomes stripped... simply because I always stop once I get the "You have ransacked this chest".

I agree with you that in some areas (epics) Turbine has continued to use the "grind" mechanic as if we were still in the Great Silence of 2008.

But if you continue to loot the same chest 12 times in a single loot run, you are going to be very, very disappointed.

Note: If you know the actual number of times required to strip a chest, please let me know and I'll edit the red in this post.

[KraahgDaAxe]

If you loot the same chest 8 times in a row, that chest is now considered Ransacked

If this is true, and again I haven't ransacked so I don't know, then hitting other chests in the same run would mean you aren't looting the same chest 8 times in a row. Would that mean that you don't ransack the chest?

Kraahg

[Broldin]

I think your problem is that you enjoy the reward more than the prodcess of achieving it. MMO's may not be the type of game for you. They are designed to keep you playing indeffinitly. You cannot "beat" an MMO. If you don't enjoy the your time playing, but only the quick fix if getting some item or other, you may want to consider a different passtime.

[Uska]

umm you can ransack that chest rather quickly so no you shouldnt get all you want with a ransack or maybe even a dozen ransacks

[Phidius]

If this is true, and again I haven't ransacked so I don't know, then hitting other chests in the same run would mean you aren't looting the same chest 8 times in a row. Would that mean that you don't ransack the chest?

Kraahg

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. Here's a better descrition from the DDOWiki.

Ransack (http://ddowiki.com/page/Ransack): Looting a chest too often within a certain span of time can temporarily reduce the quality and amount of treasure that chest generates for you. This is to prevent players from farming the same chest over and over, especially chests that certain builds can reach quickly and chests that contain highly sought named items.


The point that I was trying to make is that if you strip a chest (not ransack, strip) trying to get named loot, you are effectively slamming your head into a wall over and over trying to comb your head. It just ain't going to do anything but cause you pain.

[Elation]

Like I said, respect to the powergamers.

However, to be fair, Is that what a game is really supposed to be? Where you have to ransack and strip a chest, time and time and time again in a repetitive endless loop of tedium and pays for this honor? Abet, I'll give you, that sound more like someone getting played.

However, Games are built off the idea of entertainment, to give us a world and a place we can go where we can escape from the drudgery of our everyday life. A little fantasy world of Engagement equals Reward, so much unlike our real world lives that we want to escape to. Now, If the reward is removed or made nigh unobtainable by just playing and having fun, and there is dreadful need to endlessly grind for items to only be denied what we were seeking to begin with. Then is there to inspire engagement in this world?

Which is exactly the point of my post.

You scoff at the idea that I stripped a chest twice and did not get what I was looking for. Why should it even be to that point? There is no Joy in stripping a chest and coming up with nothing for your efforts. Zip on the Enjoyment factor. Why should I have to even strip the chest once? Much less twice, or however many times you much have stripped it in your quest to get a bloodstone.

Why would I want to even continue playing, knowing that is what I am facing?

More power to the people that like reward-less tedium in their games. I for one can't stand it.

By the many posts about it, The drop rate is a known issue among the player base, and it alienating the player base, and as that continues to happen, they will move on and spend their money on games that give rewards, that makes them feel like they are accomplishing something (Even if it is just a virtual accomplishment) and allows them some fun enjoyable game time without feeling this need to endlessly grind for nothing. Your accomplishing s noted, but if the players leave, then what you did will be for naught too.

And for the record, I did twice in a week (Not including the countless other times my other characters have done the sands for both exp and rare farming, but most of them were not as effective at it as Ungood is at being able to strip a chest)

The point is not everyone should have them if they did the "ooh cool" factor would be gone. It is not like a blood stone breaks a charactor. Yes i think even as a casual gamer its luck and should remain that way sorry you have bad luck with that chest I havent pulled one either and have been playing and looting alot longer its just luck. I do not want them to change the loot tables to drop rare items more often it would cheapen the game over all.

[redoubt]

If you run the same thing often enough to ransack it, you are probably not a casual player. Ransacking is a powergamer mentality.

That said, many people will ransack a given chest every weeks for months looking for specific items. Note, this is not to say your feelings on the issue are wrong. It is also similar to running the titan raid over 100 times and still not getting the ring...

The bloodstone is a rare drop. It is also very powerful. I've pulled a total of 2 since my join date. So, take a break. Run a few quests and come back after 7 days and try again on the chest. Also, make sure you're checking both chests. :D (I didn't look close enough, maybe that was the second chest in the pictures?)

[zed1]

I feel the OP's pain on this one. However, keep in mind that the ransack mechanic is in place to protect casual players.

Imagine for a moment that ransack does not exist. Player A plays the game for 2 hours a day, and Player B plays for 18 hours a day. While A may feel that he has a slightly better chance of pulling that uber-rare item, Player B is able to leverage his time into dominating the market. For every 1 item that A can pull, B pulls 9.

But more than that, Player B costs 9 times more than Player A in bandwidth and server processing power. Turbine has a vested interest in discouraging non-stop play. Thus raid timers, ransacked chests, and diminishing XP for running the same content over and over.

The big problem is that you are using the inventory of characters that are several years old as a measuring stick of what items you "must" have. My advice would be to take a longer view of your character. Start and end your gaming session with a single Bloodstone/SSR run, and spend the rest of the time working on other things. Eventually everything you want will drop if you are patient enough.

[Zadkiele]

If you haven't yet you should probably check out this link:

The business model behind DDO (and all MMOs) explained... (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=296014)

Unfortunately, yes, at some point with an MMO, when you've played through the quests a couple of times and they're no longer as exciting or fresh, the way they have people continue to play is to make you grind for longer and longer periods of time for less and less benefit for your character. So such mechanics are no accident. It's more or less up to the player if they think the time invested in trying to get a small increase in DPS (for example) is worthwhile to them, as opposed to spending their time doing other stuff like playing different builds or whatever. But at some point, when that is exhausted as well, the only thing really that's left for the player is...to do the same thing over and over in the hope that the next time, they'll get lucky.

The tricky thing for the company is to fine-tune the drop rates such that people are still willing to farm, yet rare enough that it takes time to do so and that the market isn't inundated with such items. Unfortunately, different people can only stomach different amounts of farming before they get frustrated and find something else better to do. Given that a significant amount of the playerbase is still willing to farm for bloodstones though (if there weren't, then their AH prices would be through the roof), the developers are unlikely to visit the drop rates for such items.

On the other hand, epic scrolls, in which a player has to kill literally thousands of epic monsters to get the scroll they want, are a different story. But that's something for the developers to consider -- at some point, when the grind is perceived as being too long, even for powergamers to be willing to sit through for months on end, then they'll lose those players that are most likely to be dedicated to gaming, to find something else more fulfilling to do.

Smart, intelligent, well informed and articulate.

Are you sure this is the DDO forums?

Zad

[Aeolwind]

Too date, since I've started running sands in Octoberish.
3 Bloodstones
2 Bow of Elements
3 Tourney Armor
2 Xuum
2 Gloves of the Falcon
2 Falcatas
1 Dervish Robe
1 Mirage
1 Mummy Wrappings
3 Dusk Hearts
0 Firestorm
0 ROSS
0 Thornlord
1 Hyena Claw
2 Stinkpelt Hides

Don't ransack the chest, man. Lay off for a week. Run it till you get the named you want once then call it a day. Start either right when you log on or right before you log off. My 'loop' starts at Pal->Thirsty->Gen->Vorvand->Arroyo/Errulf->Swift->Denmother->Stink->/Recall. I'm only interested in Pal/Thirsty, Gen, Swift & Errulf, the other stuff is just on the way and lines my pockets.

Only chest I've come close to ransacking is Ozann & that was cause I couldn't get Pal or Thirsty to spawn for like 6 runs in a row & I was going to go home with something.

If you play casual, keep your farming casual.

I do agree though. This game has more grind than EQ did back in the day and that is achieving fairly silly levels.

[Phidius]

Am I the only one who caught the fact that the OP isn't ransacking these chests... he's stripping them? Or that stripping a chest is most likely the cause of much of the angst towards the "can't get rare loot"?

If someone loots a chest 8 times per week for 1 year straight on all 10 of their characters, I'd say they have cause for anger/disappointment/what-have-you.

If someone loots a chest 1,000 times twice, and still hasn't gotten what they're after, they're doing it wrong. Telling them that's the nature of the game is either cruel or misleading - probably just misleading.

For the record, Op - you're doing it wrong. I can understand why, and no one should think less of you or blame you. But, if you play the system the way the developers intended (but didn't explain to you), it's really not so bad until you get into Epics. Epics redefined grinding in DDO...

[sweez]

I have a gut feeling that there are more bloodstones out there then the demand for them.

Since every single toon that swings a weapon and doesn't have Litany/Mari Chain wants a Bloodstone I'm pretty sure you're very very wrong.

[Aeolwind]

Am I the only one who caught the fact that the OP isn't ransacking these chests... he's stripping them? Or that stripping a chest is most likely the cause of much of the angst towards the "can't get rare loot"?



Pretty sure you get the ransack message on loot number 8 and the strip message when you push the chest level to 0 from looting. From the wiki:


So, you can loot 8 times per 7 days without ransack. The 9th looting is the first to be reduced (and have no named loot).

The ransack timer counts down even through game updates and server outages. Once it runs out, that chest refreshes completely. It'll provide full loot and start the timer again the next time it's freshly opened.

[Phidius]

Pretty sure you get the ransack message on loot number 8 and the strip message when you push the chest level to 0 from looting. From the wiki:

Right, but how many times do you have to loot a chest to reduce the chest level to 0? I wouldn't know, 'cause I always stopped farming at "ransack".

I use 1,000 because I'm sure that's way too high, and I like using gross exaggerations to get a point across :D

I used to farm the fire giant caves long after I got the ransack message, because it seemed like I would still get some decent loot for several repeats afterwards. Even then, I stopped when I started getting ML1 items or masterwork, so I don't think I've ever seen the stripped message.

[cdbd3rd]

But it was a weekend gaming run where I just wanted to play for a bit. Was hoping to get something good. And got nothing but a week wait and feeling of having wasted my time even trying.

/Points at some of the water in the not-empty half of the glass:

Got some broker/AH items, a few XPs, and advanced Slayer towards a tasty bit of XPs.


Even if the bright side isn't blindingly bright, don't ignore what is glowing off in the darkness. ;)

[cwfergtx]

I seem to be lucky on getting theses (Bloodstone, Firestorm Greaves, and Ring of spell storing) rares to drop. When I am not interested in listing to drunks, whiners, and jerks I will run the Desert for a while. On the day I due laundry I run non-stop for about 4-6 hours on any of my toons lvl 8+ for sslayers and rares. As some of my old guildies would say I get lucky when I am in the desert.

[rest]

Right, but how many times do you have to loot a chest to reduce the chest level to 0? I wouldn't know, 'cause I always stopped farming at "ransack".

I use 1,000 because I'm sure that's way too high, and I like using gross exaggerations to get a point across :D

I used to farm the fire giant caves long after I got the ransack message, because it seemed like I would still get some decent loot for several repeats afterwards. Even then, I stopped when I started getting ML1 items or masterwork, so I don't think I've ever seen the stripped message.

I think it's 11 or 12. That's also the number at which you no longer receive end rewards from the quest giver.

[Aeolwind]

Right, but how many times do you have to loot a chest to reduce the chest level to 0? I wouldn't know, 'cause I always stopped farming at "ransack".

I use 1,000 because I'm sure that's way too high, and I like using gross exaggerations to get a point across :D

I used to farm the fire giant caves long after I got the ransack message, because it seemed like I would still get some decent loot for several repeats afterwards. Even then, I stopped when I started getting ML1 items or masterwork, so I don't think I've ever seen the stripped message.

It would be based on the CR of the mob -2 or -4 I'd assume. I think they are CR 13, so 17ish loots would clean it out completely. 8 for sack and 9-11 more to clean it out? Once you go past 8 though, you are hosed. I'm pretty sure named loot won't drop anymore =/. Even stuff with a 100% drop rate like Gianthold relics in the end chests.

[ahpook]

...

If that was the case, they would not make you have to repeat the quest/instance to get a rare item. That that is the major fault in your stand.

Since they do make the item very rare, they WANT you to have to repeat the quest endlessly, and then put in mechanics to stop you.
...
Or maybe they don't want every character to have the item thus encouraging alternatives and diversity.

There are 3 possibilities:

A player is OK with not having specific gear and is content with what they get.
A player insists on having specific gear and is content with the grind to get it.
A player wants specific gear and doesn't want the grind needed to get it.

The devs place the rarity of items so that most players find themselves somewhere between #1 and #2. They want to minimize the number of people that are in situation 3. But some people will find themselves in that spot. If the devs catered to #3 then all the people that find themselves between 1 and 2 (i.e. the majority) get up and leave. Those people that are #3 are playing the wrong game.

[EvilGhandi]

How dare they make it difficult to obtain valuable, powerful loot, and possible to fail raids? Don't I pay $15 a month so as not to have to deal with stuff like that?

On a separate yet related note; I think everyone should get some kind of in-game recognition for a good effort despite failing a quest/raid. Kind of like the participation awards they give to kids in tee-ball. That way everyone can continue to feel good about themselves.

No offense OP, but life has never been fair. Why were you expecting something different in a game?

[Phidius]

Or maybe they don't want every character to have the item thus encouraging alternatives and diversity.

There are 3 possibilities:

A player is OK with not having specific gear and is content with what they get.
A player insists on having specific gear and is content with the grind to get it.
A player wants specific gear and doesn't want the grind needed to get it.

The devs place the rarity of items so that most players find themselves somewhere between #1 and #2. They want to minimize the number of people that are in situation 3. But some people will find themselves in that spot. If the devs catered to #3 then all the people that find themselves between 1 and 2 (i.e. the majority) get up and leave. Those people that are #3 are playing the wrong game.

Actually, the people that are #3 should be running the quests/raids that they find fun, selling their trash loot, posting their good loot on the AH, and posting their rare finds on their server's marketplace.

It won't be long before you'll be able to buy or trade for any piece of non-bound loot that you want.

It won't go any faster, but it'll feel like it.

[Alerax]

Out of curiousity, would you have engaged the desert looting for the Bloodstone if you were informed it has a 1% drop rate (cited from Rodrak's data diving contact during Update 5)?

Yep.

that 1% drop rate falls at different times for different people. some hit that 1% on thier first run, Others might hit that 1% on thiere 100th run. And others still might run the calcs and see that they are running a .0000001%. wait, isent that what "RANDOM" means? :)

[SimCat]

I've been playing for a little over a year and I've found that this game is really easy. Really. Easy. I can (and have) played up to end game content (minus a lot of epics) without the "best" gear possible and I had plenty of fun. I think that if everyone got some of the rares drops easily than this game would be a waste of time because it would be waaaayyyyy to easy.

I have some friends that are fully decked with gear and use their gear stockpiles on their new toons and their TRs and breeze through the content. I'm planning on TRing my first toon and I will do so with a few nice items I've picked up over the time I got him up to 20, but won't have GS or much of the top gear. I'll do fine. I just won't be power leveling. I think that the rare drop need to stay rare. If you're that concerned then you need to evaluate your strategy.

For example...my guild decided to gang up and get all of the main casters in a guild a Skiver. In about two weeks three of us had them. The guild would run and toss the tome pages to others that needed them. I've got Ring of Spell Storing, Mysterious Bauble, a handful of shavarath belts, etc this way.

I have more fun BSing with my guildies than anything else. Getting nice gear is awesome, but I'm not gonna let the fact that each of my toons doesn't have a Bloodstone spoil that fact.

[azrael4h]

Seriously, why run for that one item so much? Yes, it's powerful and nice to have. No I'm not wasting an hour a day farming it. I make one run a day, and if I never get it, oh well. I got other things I'll farm for in the same manner.

I've never pulled a Bloodstone, but I have pulled a SS Ring in my numerous runs, and who-knows how much stuff I gave away or sold.

[smithtj3]

I'll be honest, I do not understand the appeal of gear grinding. I understand that rare loot is cool but I never log on for the the sole purpose of obtaining it.

I derive my game time enjoyment from trash talking mobs over voice chat and making outrageous claims about my sexual conquests over the raid boss's parents before doing a back flip into the nearest dark abyss. The last part I do strictly for dramatic effect and takes some practice. Sometimes I just have to settle for a disappearing over the horizon deal. I also usually do a, "Peace out motha fuuu*******aaaa. . ." or the ever popular, "I'm the juggernaut biiiiiiitt*******h" voice fade out as I do so. Just let your imagination run wild with it, the important thing is you make it your own.

[Khanyth]

I love stripping chests. Used to do it all the time. I roam areas just looking for chests to strip.

Now that I'm married, I only strip the chest in one area.

[MrCow]

Right, but how many times do you have to loot a chest to reduce the chest level to 0? I wouldn't know, 'cause I always stopped farming at "ransack".

8 times 'til ransack (the 9th is where the ransack modified loot starts).
12 times 'til stripped (the 13th and on being a barren chest until your timer for the chest expires).

[Phidius]

8 times 'til ransack (the 9th is where the ransack modified loot starts).
12 times 'til stripped (the 13th and on being a barren chest until your timer for the chest expires).

Thank you very much - I've gone back and edited the red text in my original :D

OK, so 4 more times each isn't that big of a deal - I was thinking it was at least 8 or more.

[Tiseria]

I got my bloodstone in four tries today :). *rubs it in*

[SaneDitto]

I got my bloodstone in four tries today :). *rubs it in*

How about my cleric's very first run? :cool:


Seriously, OP, I know the terrible feeling. My bard's been trying to fish for spectrals up to ransack so much I can virtually run OOB with my eyes closed, and I'm too stingy to fork over the plat on the AH. As always, pray and sacrifice your daily quota of kittens before you log on DDO, and may the RNG have mercy on you.

[donfilibuster]

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/3963/gollumandtheprecious.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/gollumandtheprecious.jpg/)

Then dun give up!

[Ungood]

Or maybe they don't want every character to have the item thus encouraging alternatives and diversity.

Nope. If they wanted that, they would just do gear like they do in Korthos, where you only get to choose one item. Otherwise, everyone CAN farm for it, which makes the item open to everyone. And thus, IF it is a good item, everyone will want it.

Notice you don't see posts about "I've been farming for a coronation shield..."


There are 3 possibilities:

A player is OK with not having specific gear and is content with what they get.
A player insists on having specific gear and is content with the grind to get it.
A player wants specific gear and doesn't want the grind needed to get it.

The devs place the rarity of items so that most players find themselves somewhere between #1 and #2. They want to minimize the number of people that are in situation 3. But some people will find themselves in that spot. If the devs catered to #3 then all the people that find themselves between 1 and 2 (i.e. the majority) get up and leave. Those people that are #3 are playing the wrong game.

You make the assumption that the bulk is in group 1 and 2. But I believe you are incorrect.

I believe the mass majority of people are in groups 2 or 3. Simply put, there are a lot of people that do not have (desired item XYZ). The question then is: do they want it?

I am sure you will find that the answer is: They want it.

You will also find that they are willing to put in a fair to modest effort to get it, not because they can't put in the time, they just can;t rationalize putting in that much time for that one item.

So, at the end of the day, they are not truly "content" with their gear. They are complaint that this is the best they could get. What does that really mean?

That means they are in group 3, not 1. They want the items, but because the game is stacked against them from getting it, they end up needing to do without and realize that obtaining that item is beyond them. Many just endure in silence and accept this as part of the game, but. some of us, Like me, are willing to raise their voice going, "HEY, something is wrong here, this is supposed to be a fun game!" but for every me that makes a fuss there are legions of those that don't, and slowly, people end up just walking away because needing to do without, is not fun, no matter how you slice it.

[Ungood]

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/3963/gollumandtheprecious.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/gollumandtheprecious.jpg/)

Then dun give up!

I LOLed!

[Ungood]

The point is not everyone should have them if they did the "ooh cool" factor would be gone. It is not like a blood stone breaks a charactor. Yes i think even as a casual gamer its luck and should remain that way sorry you have bad luck with that chest I havent pulled one either and have been playing and looting alot longer its just luck. I do not want them to change the loot tables to drop rare items more often it would cheapen the game over all.

Would it? I hear this line so much, but, would it really?

I honestly think this is one of those things that people just repeat without any understanding of what they are saying, just parroting what they have been told by someone else.

case in point: Are Mino's Legends cheeped? They are such an integral part of the game, so much so, that I hear they are near to a required bit of gear for anyone post 11th. Yet EVERYONE can get one with a bit of work, and the game has not been broken.

Thus, the mantra that "Oh that would break the game" I firmly know is false dictum.

Recited and chanted by people who believe the best drop is: "When I have it and no one else does"

[Anthorin]

Out of curiousity, would you have engaged the desert looting for the Bloodstone if you were informed it has a 1% drop rate (cited from Rodrak's data diving contact during Update 5)?


1%? Hmmm my experience of possibly 1000's of bloodstone runs (on both chests) over the last 5? years on Devourer and Thelanis would imply it was less than that. (Of course I could have just been unlucky ;-))

[MrkGrismer]

I don't really understand the fascination with bloodstones anyway...

It just seems like a 'nice to have' and I'm pretty happy with the Duskheart on my Paladin, even tho I don't need the 'blurry' because of the mabar cloak (duplicate effect), so it is basically the extra hit points I'm going for.

+6 to confirm and +6 crit damage just doesn't seem worth any grind to me.

[IronClan]

Would it? I hear this line so much, but, would it really?

I honestly think this is one of those things that people just repeat without any understanding of what they are saying, just parroting what they have been told by someone else.

case in point: Are Mino's Legends cheeped? They are such an integral part of the game, so much so, that I hear they are near to a required bit of gear for anyone post 11th. Yet EVERYONE can get one with a bit of work, and the game has not been broken.

Thus, the mantra that "Oh that would break the game" I firmly know is false dictum.

Recited and chanted by people who believe the best drop is: "When I have it and no one else does"

You have to admit he has a good point with the Minos example... It's nearly required gear... yet getting 20 taps is trivial... maybe it takes 3 evenings of casual grinding... Maybe someone hands you their extras'... I remember grousing about how I need to go back and farms some taps to get a minos for one of my high level toons in a shroud some time back, and someone opened up a trade and handed me 12 or 13 taps out of the blue) and countless times someone has given me taps on various toons when they got more than they needed, or were just in it for the slayers XP and already had theirs.

Yet the game goes on... new players/characters immediately benefit some nice survivability, helping make them less of a pain for veteran players, it's still ubiquitous loot, as common to see as a GS great axe, or a pair of Khopeshes... Or Dragon Touched... Not only that but taps still sell on the AH for good sums of plat... even though lots of people just give them away.

The truth is things need to be not stupidly grindy to get, but they also need to not be too easy to get... Finding a balance that befits the powerfulness of the item is the key... I think you could put Bloodstones up in the 5% drop rate range with no ill effects besides slightly lowering the AH prices...

[IronClan]

I don't really understand the fascination with bloodstones anyway...

It just seems like a 'nice to have' and I'm pretty happy with the Duskheart on my Paladin, even tho I don't need the 'blurry' because of the mabar cloak (duplicate effect), so it is basically the extra hit points I'm going for.

+6 to confirm and +6 crit damage just doesn't seem worth any grind to me.

The +6 is multiplied by the Crit profile of the weapon used and PrE's like Barbarian FB... So bloodstone + crit + Khopesh = 18 extra damage... Bloodstone + crit + Heavy Pick = 24 extra. BS + Heavy Pick + Barbarian FBIII/Death Frenzy = 42 extra damage. And it applies to both hands (as does Seeker on a weapon, but that displaces a Burst prefix so is less desirable)

[Ungood]

You have to admit he has a good point with the Minos example... It's nearly required gear... yet getting 20 taps is trivial... maybe it takes 3 evenings of casual grinding... Maybe someone hands you their extras'... I remember grousing about how I need to go back and farms some taps to get a minos for one of my high level toons in a shroud some time back, and someone opened up a trade and handed me 12 or 13 taps out of the blue) and countless times someone has given me taps on various toons when they got more than they needed, or were just in it for the slayers XP and already had theirs.

Yet the game goes on... new players/characters immediately benefit some nice survivability, helping make them less of a pain for veteran players, it's still ubiquitous loot, as common to see as a GS great axe, or a pair of Khopeshes... Or Dragon Touched... Not only that but taps still sell on the AH for good sums of plat... even though lots of people just give them away.

The truth is things need to be not stupidly grindy to get, but they also need to not be too easy to get... Finding a balance that befits the powerfulness of the item is the key... I think you could put Bloodstones up in the 5% drop rate range with no ill effects besides slightly lowering the AH prices...

This got me thinking, there is a turn in guy in the Sands, who takes Antique Tokens, in packs of 600+ for the good stuff.

Add in a final tier of say, 1000 or even 2000 tokens for the named stuff. It would take some effort, and time, but it makes getting the item an eventually as opposed to a discouraging game of dumb luck and random chance.

The would not break at all, in any way, doing this.

[Tarragon12]

Bloodstone drops far too often actually. They should lower the drop rate to 1/10 of current to make it actually rare. These days, everyone has it and few bore themselves farming more for alts or whatever. With two alts and two rares to drop it, you get 28 chances a week which amounts to 25% for one (or more) bloodstones a week. And it takes ..90 minutes.. to hit those 28 chests.
Firestorm greaves are slightly more difficult, but still drop quite often. I've seen about 4 drops in about 200 chest openings.

You complain because you don't have em and want it. Instead, enjoy the fact, that there is something to hunt for. It will pass way too soon and then, you'll have to actually start to enjoy the game itself, which is much harder:)



At some point, you have to admit that there is something just wrong with the system. There is no question that we all play these games for rewards, be they in the form of gear, items, exp, or what have you. We seek because in the end of things we wish to find.

However, when a Game and drop system is designed to prevent you from finding what you seek, that is the pinnacle of a problem. And while I, like everyone, enjoy a bit of "Work" to get what I want, that is what makes it fun in most cases. However, there is a big fat line between a fun challenge and outright tedium.
...

[magnus1]

Bloodstones are found in a chest which every lvl10+ toon can get, it is dead easy to farm (probably boredom is you biggest opponent) and I have a gut feeling that there are more bloodstones out there then the demand for them. I'd say the price is fair for a rare drop which can be farmed reliably and fast on a mid-level toon.

bloodstones can only be gotten by people that own the material or vips everyone else must buy or trade for it so not every 10th+ lvl toon can get it.

everything you said in this post i disagree with, how much is turbine paying you to write this dribble?

[tihocan]

There is no Joy in stripping a chest and coming up with nothing for your efforts. Zip on the Enjoyment factor. Why should I have to even strip the chest once?
Sorry I don't have time to read the whole thread, but this caught my attention. The simple answer is if you don't find it fun, don't do it. Grinding rare loot is like playing slot machines: you enjoy the thrill of eventually maybe getting it, knowing you'll likely just end up with nothing. If you don't enjoy slots, don't grind rare stuff :)

Rare items are a key component in keeping some players playing... if you're not that kind of player, just move along and enjoy the parts of the game you like better!

[Ungood]

Sorry I don't have time to read the whole thread, but this caught my attention. The simple answer is if you don't find it fun, don't do it. Grinding rare loot is like playing slot machines: you enjoy the thrill of eventually maybe getting it, knowing you'll likely just end up with nothing. If you don't enjoy slots, don't grind rare stuff :)

No One.. and I mean this bluntly, NO ONE, Plays the slots to loose, and they don't play for fun. They play to win. They play because they want to win.

What happens is, they either win, or they get discouraged, or they don't invest any real effort into it.

That last part, is a death knell for a MMO, as players become discouraged by the ridiculous nature of the rarity of drops, they either move on to other games that give their little rewards and thus are happy again, they stop playing all together, or they stop paying for the game as they can't see the point, but, still hang around, trying something else, like finding ways to get everything for free.


Rare items are a key component in keeping some players playing... if you're not that kind of player, just move along and enjoy the parts of the game you like better!

So I see you parroted the little line "move on to more fun things".. like what? and why?

[IronClan]

Bloodstone drops far too often actually. These days, everyone has it and few bore themselves farming more for alts or whatever.

Which explains why they sell for 800k in bidding on the AH? :rolleyes:


With two alts and two rares to drop it, you get 28 chances a week which amounts to 25% for one (or more) bloodstones a week. And it takes ..90 minutes.. to hit those 28 chests.

There are some fundamental problems with your math. First of all a 1% chance 28 times does not equal a 25% chance. If you roll d100 28 times you do not have a 25% chance to roll a 1. Second how on earth are you getting 90 minutes to ransack both chests? I would guess Paco's chest is up maybe 50%-60% of the time (maybe a little more?) and Thristy maybe more like 10-20% of my runs Thirsty is up. Now at best (if there's no chests) you might do 1 run in 3 minutes. More likely 4... If both chests are up this time increases... (I admit I always do the General rare too so that's a little more time per run which most people are also going to do)

90 minutes is about enough time to make 22 hard nosed RUNS, not chests, RUNS. But only if you don't need to shrine, or repair, or drop and reform your Group/Hireling... 22 isn't 28.

There's a Fair liklihood that in 22 runs you will get ransack on Paco's chest and maybe 2 or 3 shots at thirsty's though I've done a complete ransack of Paco (I know that's not the spelling it's my shorthand for his name) chests without seeing ONE thirsty chest up...

So that means in that case I might have needed to run as many as 80 more RUNS (not chests, RUNS) to have a good chance to to see 8 Thristy rares and ransack...

In other words it's entirely possible you could do 90-100 runs (that's runs) to ransack BOTH chests. But because of the way "random" actually works (probabilities are not evenly distributed, random is not the same thing as "average") and likely you wouldn't pull a bloodstone in doing it... that's 400 minutes for quite likely 0 bloodstones...

[Thuriaz]

I'm gonna pose a question here, it's a fair question but it's one that should be asked.

Does it REALLY nerf your character that badly to not have a blood stone? Sure it's the kinda thing you gotta WORK for, and it's the kinda thing that maybe there should be MORE QUESTS that drop it (even at the same percentage) but is it really that big of a deal? Is it going to make your character unplayable not to have it?

What I'm saying is, there is a very large line between "Gear you must have to be usable" which often could be un-named gear and then gear you need to be "Uber".

I see a lot of complaints on the forums for this, that, or the other and it has nothing to do with balance, it has to do with as much envy as anything. DDO lacks any real PVP so being "underpowered" is NOT as big a deal as it is in other MMO's. In any other MMO the difference between being in the "Top 10%" and being in the "Main 70%" would be tragic. In DDO the difference appears to be anecdotal. If your DPS comes out 100DPS less than the best raging bloodstoned half orc, your still probably a darn good DPS machine yourself, your probably still keeping up with kills, still a valuable team member, and still contributing.

That part of the system doesn't seem so broke to me. It seems fairly balanced. I doubt anything puts up an LFM with "Must have bloodstone to join." When THAT becomes the norm THEN it will be unbalanced. Until then it's a feature of the game, it's something you can strive for, hope for, and when you get it, it's a notch on your belt you can proudly display.

The way it's being refered to in here though would be the equivalent of a Kensai III stated for Scimitars joining a rade and bringing only a pair of +1 daggers because he couldn't find Scimitars...anywhere...at all...ever. That would be game breaking, this however sounds like it's functioning how it should be. Without things to aim for, what is the point of aiming?

In conclusion, it seems to me and no offense intended to the OP, your value of "Fun" in the game is being "The best" which is fine, there are many games out there where becoming "the best" most capably geared player is possible. Some of them are F2P, some of them in that model you can also buy the gear for to be the best when you hit level cap. Mind you, if your up for shelling out $300, $400, OR MORE for the feeling of satisfaction those games may be more of what your looking for. DDO's free to play model appears to me to be more around "purchasing content" and "features" to make the game more fun. That is, it's more comparable to a very low cost game system, you purchase the packs the same way you would a disk for a system and you suddenly have more things to do. However you can play without doing that, and your never FORCED to do that, also for a low monthly fee you can get ALL OF THAT for much less. Other F2P models are based on making the player "Feel good about their progress and the money the spend making them elite" which is fine, I've seen those games where people dump literally over $200 A DAY into those games.

Those games are not DDO, DDO in my experience however is a lot more fun to play, I've put a little bit in for some TP and I don't ever feel that it was a waste of money. What I get are things to do, more ways to do them, and the feeling of satisfaction that I'm supporting something I enjoy.

I know your not asking for that part of the system to be changed, however it seems maybe your motivation for the request is more "I'd like to be ubber" and less "I'm not enjoying the game because of this" which if that is the case maybe you should look at DDO as a game and less as a "Contest" for "Supremacy". As a game it's a fine fine game. As a contest it will force you to grind and grind to the end of days. As the kind of game that is "Free to Play, Pay to Win" it fails in that model. It's free to play, pay to play more options and content.

I understand your frustration, I've had some frustrations myself, but generally your past the hurdle of "Getting a feel for my character" and "What do I want to do in a group" this should be the time for you to PLAY THE GAME not the time to just grind for the sake of being ubber. If your level 20, maybe start another character up to enjoy some of the low level content again, maybe on the way up you'll get a shiny blood stone.

[tihocan]

No One.. and I mean this bluntly, NO ONE, Plays the slots to loose, and they don't play for fun. They play to win. They play because they want to win.

What happens is, they either win, or they get discouraged, or they don't invest any real effort into it.
Uh, no. If I'm going to a Casino, obviously I want to win, but I don't expect to win. If I lose I'm not discouraged, I just say "tough luck, it was fun anyways" and I move on to something else, because obviously at some point losing is not fun anymore, and I'd rather stop before the frustration kicks in. If you insist on banging your head on the slots till you win, then IMO you are the one responsible for your own lack of fun (and possibly for a lot more trouble in the case of slots).


So I see you parroted the little line "move on to more fun things".. like what? and why?
Like content that doesn't involve grinding. If you ran everything already and you don't like grinding, then yes, find another game. DDO has a lot of content to offer, but once you've seen it all, it becomes the grind (whether it is gear, favor, True Reincarnations...), and I believe that's a rather universal MMORPG characteristic.

As to why... obviously, to have more fun than ransacking low-drop-rate chests since you don't enjoy doing it.

[tihocan]

If you roll d100 28 times you do not have a 25% chance to roll a 1.
Actually you do. Well, 24.53% would be more accurate if you were only being picky.

[Ungood]

Actually you do. Well, 24.53% would be more accurate if you were only being picky.

No you don't. You are no closer to rolling a 1 on a d100, after 20 tries then you were the first time you rolled it. This is a falllcay that people who do not understand this mechanic are deceived into thinking. It is this decption that lottery players cling to as well and it simply not true.

The fact of the matter is, you no closer to rolling a 1 after a hundred tries then you were the very first time you rolled it. Chances to not stack, they do not accumulate, they do not build on each other, they are random to the moment.

Each roll you make gives you a 1 in 100, or a 1% chance to get a 1.

See the issue is, if numbers stacked or added or what have you, a person would have 100% chance to get a 1 after 100 rolls, which everyone knows is simply not the case. You can roll a six sided dice a dozen time and not get a six. But people still cling to the idea that chances stack, even games fall for this little bit of deception, even when they have continual evidence right in front of them, this is never the case.

Don't think I am right? Roll a D8, eight times, do you get every number from one to eight? Roll it 16 times, do you get every number twice? NO!

Thus, You have the exact same chance to roll 1 after one try as you do after a thousand tries, a 1 in 100 chance, or a 1% that single time.

Which is why you could roll a d100, a thousand times, and not roll a single 1, but roll a 3 twenty times.

Which is why, this whole random loot, 1% chance thing is bogus.

[Ungood]

Uh, no. If I'm going to a Casino, obviously I want to win, but I don't expect to win.

Again, this false. You want to win, you ACCEPT that loosing is a part of the game, but not a part you want to endure if you can do anything to stop it.

If you honestly do not expect to win you won't play. Nothing for nothing, but unless you have some other motive to be at that table other then the game., (IE: A hoit dealer chick) then you sin down with the desire to win.


If I lose I'm not discouraged, I just say "tough luck, it was fun anyways" and I move on to something else, because obviously at some point losing is not fun anymore, and I'd rather stop before the frustration kicks in. If you insist on banging your head on the slots till you win, then IMO you are the one responsible for your own lack of fun (and possibly for a lot more trouble in the case of slots).

Fiar enough... Give me alternate means to get these items (or equally good items) other then this **** shot of a game.

The problem is. we are forced to play these games of chance and luck, like it or not, if we want the items. That would be as asinine as telling you: You have to earn your paycheck at the craps table.

Loosing takes on a whole new dimension.


Like content that doesn't involve grinding.

No such content exists, tell me one high end quest that does not involve grinding. Every content is the same idea, random rare drop loot and chances.

I still run shroud, because unlike the ridiculous rare drop system they have in place in most other quests, every time I run Shroud, no matter what I get out the box, I will be a step closer to my next up grade of Green Steel.

That was about the only expansion that truly made sense,and no wonder it is considered a must have part of the game, that and Necro 4.

Irony, the two high/mid level zones that give you good gear for your efforts, guaranteed

EVERY expansion should be like that.

[KraahgDaAxe]

No you don't. You are no closer to rolling a 1 on a d100, after 20 tries then you were the first time you rolled it. This is a falllcay that people who do not understand this mechanic are deceived into thinking. It is this decption that lottery players cling to as well and it simply not true.

The fact of the matter is, you no closer to rolling a 1 after a hundred tries then you were the very first time you rolled it. Chances to not stack, they do not accumulate, they do not build on each other, they are random to the moment.

Each roll you make gives you a 1 in 100, or a 1% chance to get a 1.

See the issue is, if numbers stacked or added or what have you, a person would have 100% chance to get a 1 after 100 rolls, which everyone knows is simply not the case. You can roll a six sided dice a dozen time and not get a six. But people still cling to the idea that chances stack, even games fall for this little bit of deception, even when they have continual evidence right in front of them, this is never the case.

Don't think I am right? Roll a D8, eight times, do you get every number from one to eight? Roll it 16 times, do you get every number twice? NO!

Thus, You have the exact same chance to roll 1 after one try as you do after a thousand tries, a 1 in 100 chance, or a 1% that single time.

Which is why you could roll a d100, a thousand times, and not roll a single 1, but roll a 3 twenty times.

Which is why, this whole random loot, 1% chance thing is bogus.

Actually this isn't 100% correct. While each roll of 1d100 has a 1% chance of rolling any specific number, the odds do slightly increase per roll. It's nowhere near the 24% shown above, as the increase isn't static per additive but actually decreases per chance given. Meaning, as an example and not gospel, because I don't know the actual math behind it, that one run on a 1% item will be, duh duh da, 1% (ok, this one is gospel). A second run would be 1.01%, the third run would be 1.011%, etc.

Like I said, I don't know the specifics of the math, but I know it is true. Flipping a coin is 50/50, and each flip is 50/50, but if you take into account all the flips you made, the chance is actually higher ON BOTH SIDES, to have atleast one flip that lands that way. Meaning you have a greater then 50% chance of flipping atleast one heads or atleast one tails in 8 flips, but you have a true 50% chance of rolling 4 heads or 4 tails on 8 flips.

Kraahg

[LucidPhilosophy]

I think you need to remember that the devs have actual evidence on their side here. They know that a reasonably certain percentage of players get bored and leave MMOs in a certain timeframe. A decent portion of those who are willing to stay longer tend to be the ones that are seeking their white whale(s). If they do not have crazily low drop rates on some 'uber' items, they will lose those players as well since they will have collected all of the goodies and gotten bored in their own way.

I don't like the drop rate issue and grind style of play that it encourages but I understand why it's there.

[KraahgDaAxe]

It's called Binomial Distribution.

http://stattrek.com/Tables/Binomial.aspx#examples

Kraahg

[Ungood]

I'm gonna pose a question here, it's a fair question but it's one that should be asked.

Does it REALLY nerf your character that badly to not have a blood stone?

No. It does not. Nor does staying at 10th level to be honest, nor never making it out of Korthos, nor does making it to 20th and then never TRing.

While yes, all of those things are considered in some cases, staples of this game, to level up, to move on from areas, MMO's are built off the idea of a continual progression of improvement of your character, otherwise, there is no point.


Sure it's the kinda thing you gotta WORK for, and it's the kinda thing that maybe there should be MORE QUESTS that drop it (even at the same percentage) but is it really that big of a deal? Is it going to make your character unplayable not to have it?

What I'm saying is, there is a very large line between "Gear you must have to be usable" which often could be un-named gear and then gear you need to be "Uber".

I don't need it. I want it.

But the idea that there is a mechanic designed to just arbitrarily deny me of it is wrong.

I am with you on the drop rate. I would like to see it as a collectible turn in, as that whole system is grossly underused and overlooked.

They even have a person set up to collect items at the sands and give you equipment in return, use that mechanic to give out rare named loot drops as well, just like the orchard, or even GH where you can get armors (Abet those GH armors are not so great, but still the idea and method is sound).


I see a lot of complaints on the forums for this, that, or the other and it has nothing to do with balance, it has to do with as much envy as anything.

and it that self same envy that inspires players to want these items to be rare. Not because it will hurt the game or mess up any balance, but because they believe the best loot table is where they have it and no one else does.


I know your not asking for that part of the system to be changed, however it seems maybe your motivation for the request is more "I'd like to be ubber" and less "I'm not enjoying the game because of this" which if that is the case maybe you should look at DDO as a game and less as a "Contest" for "Supremacy". As a game it's a fine fine game. As a contest it will force you to grind and grind to the end of days. As the kind of game that is "Free to Play, Pay to Win" it fails in that model. It's free to play, pay to play more options and content.

I would settle for it not to be some random dice roll decides if I will ever get an item or not. Make it so if I hit the chest 100 times, I will get it. They have the methods in place to count the hits already (Ergo Ransack and Stripped)


I understand your frustration, I've had some frustrations myself, but generally your past the hurdle of "Getting a feel for my character" and "What do I want to do in a group" this should be the time for you to PLAY THE GAME not the time to just grind for the sake of being ubber. If your level 20, maybe start another character up to enjoy some of the low level content again, maybe on the way up you'll get a shiny blood stone.

There are only 2 parts to most MMO's, DDO being no expection, EXP and Loot. Given that my main is 19th, and half way to 20th, once I make 20th, the only part of the game that remains Loot.

So if you take away the loot, then what do I have to left?

All I am asking is that this idea of random loot is not good. Make it so that I can grind for it the same way I would grind for Exp, or grind for GS items, or Grind for a Minos Legend.

Is that really unreasonable? That I find ransacking and stripping Chests defeating and disheartening?

[deathbob27]

I think the drop rate is fine, it only took me exactly 3000 undead kills of killing 25 undead per run to finally catch one during this life. After reading the entire post all i have taken from it, is that your unhappy from stripping a chest w/out getting what you wanted. Seriously where is the fun of knowing exactly what you get. I for one do not want anything close to that, and i am sure neither does turbine. It would be a great way to kill interest, and take away some of the basics of the dnd game. Do i regret wasting nearly a month of time farming for my most recent bloodstone, I sure dont. Actually i passed it to my friend the second i got it.

Point being: Keep farming or give up, It takes very little time to farm the main 3 in the undead area. You do acquire items and xp from the runs. Also if bloodstone is giving you this much trouble have fun with your epic and greensteel farming.

[LucidPhilosophy]

There are only 2 parts to most MMO's, DDO being no expection, EXP and Loot. Given that my main is 19th, and half way to 20th, once I make 20th, the only part of the game that remains Loot.

So if you take away the loot, then what do I have to left?

I think you're missing the fact that _you_ are taking loot out of the equation with your request. You just made it clear that XP does not motivate you once you do not need more XP. Loot would be the same if there was no more rare loot that you wanted.

[Ungood]

I think you're missing the fact that _you_ are taking loot out of the equation with your request. You just made it clear that XP does not motivate you once you do not need more XP. Loot would be the same if there was no more rare loot that you wanted.

This again, is a fallacy.

People work towards GS items all the time. They work towards advancing those items. The fact that anyone can get a GS item in time, with work, does not cheapen the value of the item, or the effort everyone else put into getting theirs.

Ergo, the way the game works now, already invalidates your claim. I am just asking that the same mechanic that works in vale and necropolis, be applied to all zones and items.

Is that unreasonable?

[The-Last-Wolf]

Actually this isn't 100% correct. While each roll of 1d100 has a 1% chance of rolling any specific number, the odds do slightly increase per roll. It's nowhere near the 24% shown above, as the increase isn't static per additive but actually decreases per chance given. Meaning, as an example and not gospel, because I don't know the actual math behind it, that one run on a 1% item will be, duh duh da, 1% (ok, this one is gospel). A second run would be 1.01%, the third run would be 1.011%, etc.

Like I said, I don't know the specifics of the math, but I know it is true. Flipping a coin is 50/50, and each flip is 50/50, but if you take into account all the flips you made, the chance is actually higher ON BOTH SIDES, to have atleast one flip that lands that way. Meaning you have a greater then 50% chance of flipping atleast one heads or atleast one tails in 8 flips, but you have a true 50% chance of rolling 4 heads or 4 tails on 8 flips.

Kraahg

Hi Kraahg,

I think you may be confusing probability with Large number theory.

No matter how many times you flip a coin, Each time you do so the probability (assuming no rim landings) is 50% of either heads or tails. Neither the coin or the universe at large retains any memory of what went before. There is nothing that effects the probability.

Large number theory works on the principle that the more times you toss a coin, the closer you will get to a 50/50 average. It does however require a large number of tosses (1000's) before it gets close to this average.

As humans, we live in a very real interactive world and we have a huge conceptual problem with probability theory, because it goes against "common sense". Unfortunately this common sense doesn't change the very real math behind how the universe works (wow I realise I sound hugely pompous here, my apologies).

If you saw someone toss a coin 100 times(fairly) and it came up heads every time, our natural human assumption is that something is "wrong". In fact, it is entirely possible, it's just unlikely we would see it, as we would statistically need to spend huge amounts of time watching people toss coins for this to happen enough for people to "believe it".

Large number theory implies something like this. On a 1% drop rate, you are realistically looking at anything between 1 - 10,000 runs before you would be a statistical anomaly. This means for eveyone that gets a bloodstone on their first chest, someone else is never (assuming nobody is insane enough to grind 10,000 times) going to get one.

As to what the OP is talking about, I feel your pain, but I'm still not sure I can agree with your arguments,

In the case of the bloodstone, there is an alternative, which is to grind plat to buy one of the AH (Still a slow laborious task), or just do without. Personally, I think the loot mechanics are reasonable, and as such allow the truly dedicated players to get the gear they want to make the toons they want. For the rest of us, their is such a plethora of build and gear choices, that the lack of one particular piece of gear is easily mitigated.

Regards
Wolf.

As a side note, and Sorry Ungood this is not meant to taunt you futher, just the truth. I pulled my first bloodstone tonight After probably 120-150 chests. Is that anything to do with posting in this thread earlier?. Absolutly not, just the way the random numbers work

[JDCrowell]

We all know too well how rare the bloodstone and spell storing ring are, but what about other desert loot? How rare is the chainmail coif or the firestorm greaves? I have only one bloodstone and more mummy wrappings, dynastic falcatas, and dusk hearts than I can sell lol.

[KraahgDaAxe]

Hi Kraahg,

I think you may be confusing probability with Large number theory.

No matter how many times you flip a coin, Each time you do so the probability (assuming no rim landings) is 50% of either heads or tails. Neither the coin or the universe at large retains any memory of what went before. There is nothing that effects the probability.

Large number theory works on the principle that the more times you toss a coin, the closer you will get to a 50/50 average. It does however require a large number of tosses (1000's) before it gets close to this average.

As humans, we live in a very real interactive world and we have a huge conceptual problem with probability theory, because it goes against "common sense". Unfortunately this common sense doesn't change the very real math behind how the universe works (wow I realise I sound hugely pompous here, my apologies).

If you saw someone toss a coin 100 times(fairly) and it came up heads every time, our natural human assumption is that something is "wrong". In fact, it is entirely possible, it's just unlikely we would see it, as we would statistically need to spend huge amounts of time watching people toss coins for this to happen enough for people to "believe it".

Large number theory implies something like this. On a 1% drop rate, you are realistically looking at anything between 1 - 10,000 runs before you would be a statistical anomaly. This means for eveyone that gets a bloodstone on their first chest, someone else is never (assuming nobody is insane enough to grind 10,000 times) going to get one.

As to what the OP is talking about, I feel your pain, but I'm still not sure I can agree with your arguments,

In the case of the bloodstone, there is an alternative, which is to grind plat to buy one of the AH (Still a slow laborious task), or just do without. Personally, I think the loot mechanics are reasonable, and as such allow the truly dedicated players to get the gear they want to make the toons they want. For the rest of us, their is such a plethora of build and gear choices, that the lack of one particular piece of gear is easily mitigated.

Regards
Wolf.

As a side note, and Sorry Ungood this is not meant to taunt you futher, just the truth. I pulled my first bloodstone tonight After probably 120-150 chests. Is that anything to do with posting in this thread earlier?. Absolutly not, just the way the random numbers work

Actually my post was referencing Binomial Distribution, which I stated a few posts later and linked to. As shown below, taken directly from the website I linked above:

--
A binomial distribution is a probability distribution. It refers to the probabilities associated with the number of successes in a binomial experiment.

For example, suppose we toss a coin three times and suppose we define Heads as a success. This binomial experiment has four possible outcomes: 0 Heads, 1 Head, 2 Heads, or 3 Heads. The probabilities associated with each possible outcome are an example of a binomial distribution, as shown below.

Outcome, x | Binomial probability,P(X = x) | Cumulative probability,P(X < x)
0 Heads | 0.125 | 0.125
1 Head | 0.375 | 0.500
2 Heads | 0.375 | 0.875
3 Heads | 0.125 | 1.000
--

As shown above, in three trials the probability is lower at the ends of the equation, which one option or another happens as opposed to spreading the option around. This percentage goes up (binomial probability) as you head towards having atleast one of each option (2 heads = 1 tails). The calculator on the website will tell you the exact percentages you have of getting a specific number to be "rolled" in a set number of trials (runs) with a set percentage the trial can be a "success" (found a bloodstone).

This doesn't discount either of the things you stated, as they are both true, but in successive runs (not a single run) each of those don't actually speak to the proper math behind the trial.

Kraahg

[The-Last-Wolf]

Hi Kraahg,

I don't think Binomial Distribution helps us at this point.

BD is about calculating the probability of a specific number of "wins" in a specific number of experiments.
So, the probability of pulling exactly 3 bloodstones in 32 chest openings = 0.0037 According to your calculator.
However this does not change the probability of a bloodstone appearing in each individual chest. This remains at 0.01

Binomial distribution doesn't mean your odds increase the more you "fail".

For example using the calculator, the Binomial probability of pulling 1 Bloodstone in 100 runs is 0.37 (37%)
What this tells us is that if a 1000 people looted 100 chests, then roughly 37% of them should have 1 bloodstone
Interestingly roughly 37% would have 0 bloodstones, and the remaining 26% would have more than 1

However, this does not equate to someone who has opened 99 chests without success having a 37% chance of pulling a bloodstone on their 100th pull. They still have exactly the same probability as before 1%.

Another way of looking at it is that at 99 tries and zero bloodstones, you have used up 99 chances to get into 1 or more bloodstone side of the binomial distribution. And so are 1 chance away from being part of the zero bloodstones distribution.

QED

So I'm afraid the OP is correct, a 1% drop rate is a 1% drop rate, and based on the binomial distribution calculator, even after 100 runs, more than a third of people would be without a BS (and thats assuming we even have the 1% drop rate correct).

Regards
Wolf

[tihocan]

It's called Binomial Distribution.
Not really, usually what someone is interested in is the probability of seeing e.g. a bloodstone appears at least once in n runs, not exactly once (which would be given by the binomial).

[tihocan]

Thus, You have the exact same chance to roll 1 after one try as you do after a thousand tries, a 1 in 100 chance, or a 1% that single time.
This is correct. However, if you ask yourself: "how likely am I to roll a 1 at least once in my next 28 rolls?" then the answer is 24.53% (1 - 0.99^28).

[tihocan]

I am just asking that the same mechanic that works in vale and necropolis, be applied to all zones and items.

Is that unreasonable?
I would be for me. Don't get me wrong, I also like "guaranteed" rewards, but I think it's nice to have a mix of "guaranteed" vs. "random". IMO randomness makes things exciting, while "guarantedness" makes things less frustrating. I like that there are both and I wouldn't want it to be entirely one way or the other (all random would be frustrating, all guaranteed would be boring).

[KraahgDaAxe]

Gonna break this down a little.


BD is about calculating the probability of a specific number of "wins" in a specific number of experiments.

This is true. A win would be receiving a bloodstone. I think we can agree on that. The number of experiments could EITHER be 1. the number of runs that have atleast one chest that can spawn the bloodstone or 2. the number of chests that spawn the bloodstone over all runs.


So, the probability of pulling exactly 3 bloodstones in 32 chest openings = 0.0037 According to your calculator.
However this does not change the probability of a bloodstone appearing in each individual chest. This remains at 0.01

This is correct. But I was mentioning not the probability of a bloodstone per chest, but the probability of, assuming a run has atleast one chest that can spawn a bloodstone, getting atleast one bloodstone in 'N' experiments.


Binomial distribution doesn't mean your odds increase the more you "fail".

Well, overall it does. Per chest it doesn't, but the odds increase that you WILL pull a bloodstone the more runs you make. Each chest is still 1% or .01.


For example using the calculator, the Binomial probability of pulling 1 Bloodstone in 100 runs is 0.37 (37%)
What this tells us is that if a 1000 people looted 100 chests, then roughly 37% of them should have 1 bloodstone
Interestingly roughly 37% would have 0 bloodstones, and the remaining 26% would have more than 1

However, this does not equate to someone who has opened 99 chests without success having a 37% chance of pulling a bloodstone on their 100th pull. They still have exactly the same probability as before 1%.

No, it does not equate to someone who has opened 99 chests and is expecting 37% on the last remaining chest. That last remaining chest is not 100 chests, it's one chest, therefore has a 1% chance. But overall it does. And notice by your own words using the calc that they have an equal chance of pulling as not pulling (37%), while a lower number will pull multiples (26%). If you look over the course of this thread you will see that there are those who have made more runs and gotten less while there are also those who have made less runs but gotten more, speaking to the validity of using this method.

As you said, this is of course assuming the pull rate is actually 1%.

Kraahg

[Ungood]

This is correct. However, if you ask yourself: "how likely am I to roll a 1 at least once in my next 28 rolls?" then the answer is 24.53% (1 - 0.99^28).

Ummm. not to be rude at all, but, the law of averages says I have a 10% chance to get a 1 if I roll this dice a thousand times. What that means, is, after I have rolled it a thousand times, ten of those times will be 1's. Where they fall, is determined by the 1%, IE: They have a 1% to fall anywhere from the first roll to the last. But I still have a 10% and my chance to roll a 1" overall, is increased as I move along the series of rolls, but, it should not ever exceed 10% along the entire series (As per the law of averages)

So, using this method, I would have a 10% chance to get a 1, on the thousandth roll of a d100, IF, I have not already gotten ten 1's already. if I have, I should have a 0% chance to get an eleventh 1's, but, I still have that 1% chance on each roll to always get a 1.

Now, Irony is, I have a 1% per roll to get a 1, I also, have a 1% chance to have gotten a 1 after a hundred rolls. So applying that, what you really meant to say is that you have a .2453% chance to have gotten a 1 on your 28th roll with the idea that you will have a 100% chance to have gotten a 1 by your ten thousandth roll.

It's tricky, which is why people get confused and suckered into these scams thinking that the numbers can work for them. simply put, they don't.

As for the loot obtained, that is like saying you won the lottery. You didn't do anything special to win it, you just lucked out.

[Thuriaz]

No. It does not. Nor does staying at 10th level to be honest, nor never making it out of Korthos, nor does making it to 20th and then never TRing.

While yes, all of those things are considered in some cases, staples of this game, to level up, to move on from areas, MMO's are built off the idea of a continual progression of improvement of your character, otherwise, there is no point.


Staying at 10th level DOES nerf your character rather badly in the grand scheme of things, so does staying on Korthos indefinitely. I assure you, you'll never find yourself running a raid stuck on Korthos. As for not TRing, yeah that doesn't nerf you TOO badly honestly, TR looks to be a bit over-rated... kinda like a blood stone.

However if you want to REALLY make a suggestion for this, why not just ask that it be an over-priced item in the shop? You want a "Big Easy" button, well that's the biggest easiest button. You could grind up some TP, buy yourself the blood stone, and call it a week. You could even choose to spend real money on it.

MMO's are built off the idea of "This is a lot more fun in a group than it would be by myself" generally speaking, with character improvement and a reward system being a PART of that to full fill our need to feel like we accomplished something.

My question however was how much of a nerf is this really? A bloodstone provides a hand full of DPS over other options, and there ARE other options.

[KillEveryone]

"What would be the motive or inclination that would dive me to explore other content that has the same kind of stonewalling mechanic regarding loot drops as the content that is currently discouraging me?"

I hit this point a few weeks ago. Been going through the motions on getting some characters leveled up but then it will come down to the grind to get my gear to complete my character.

Why bother. It will be boring since I'm going to be rerunning a quest/area over and over just to get that piece of gear that marginally improves my character but it still completes my character since I can't get anywhere else with leveling that character.

The grind sucks. It may work for some people, but it doesn't work for all.

For those that say once you have the gear you would have quit anyway:
Just because I have the gear I'm looking for doesn't mean I would have quit. I would have worked on all my other characters. Because the gear is a grind and gets boring after a point since the content had been run to ransack and the quest/area can be stomped into the ground, it is not challenging or difficult. The grind can also make some people leave.

[Ungood]

I think you're missing the fact that _you_ are taking loot out of the equation with your request. You just made it clear that XP does not motivate you once you do not need more XP. Loot would be the same if there was no more rare loot that you wanted.

All I am asking that that a method be implemented to earn these items, simply because I believe that we all would not want to have to play carnival games to decide what clothing I will own in real life, I equally so believe we should not have to do the same in a MMO.

There is a barrage of gear and items that are earnable that shoot down the entire concept of needing to play **** shoot games of chance for your items. IE: GS Weapon or Item, Minos Legend, Dalorent's Seal, Dragontouched Armor, Etc, Etc, Etc. All of them not looked up as cheep, and they are for the most part, looked upon as "What someone should have" if they are serious about this game.

Seeing this happen, and be successfully, there is no reason why BOTH methods can't be implemented. Give people who really want that item, an alternate means to get beyond

DM: "Ok.. If you get a 1 on this D100, you get it!" Ohhh nooo.. you lost!
Player: I Kill him again.. *Sigh*. roll-roll-roll, He's dead.. Ok
DM: "Ok.. If you get a 1 on this D100, you get it!" Ohhh nooo.. you lost!
Player: I Kill him again.. *Grinds Teeth*. roll-roll, He's dead.. Ok
DM: "Ok.. If you get a 1 on this D100, you get it!" Ohhh nooo.. you lost!
Player: I Kill him again.. *Flops back in chair and tosses dice on table a 2 comes up* "He's dead"
DM: "Ok.. If you get a 1 on this D100, you get it!" Ohhh nooo.. you lost!
Player: *sigh* "...and again." *Flops back in chair and tosses dice on table does not even look at the roll* "He's dead"
DM: "Ok.. If you get a 1 on this D100, you get it!" Ohhh nooo.. you lost!
Player: *sigh* "...and again." *Flops back in chair and tosses dice on table does not even look at the roll* "dead"
DM: "Ok.. If you get a 1 on this D100, you get it!" NOPE!
Player: *drops dice on table, no one but the DM cares what comes up* "dead"
DM: *roll* Nope!
Player: *drops dice on table, no one but the DM cares what comes up* "dead"
DM: *roll* Nope!
Player: *drops dice on table, no one but the DM cares what comes up* "dead"
DM: *roll* Nope!
Player: *drops dice on table, no one but the DM cares what comes up* "dead"
DM: *roll* Nope!
Player: *drops dice on table, no one but the DM cares what comes up* "dead"
DM: *roll* Nope!
Player: *drops dice on table, no one but the DM cares what comes up* "dead"
DM: *roll* Nope!
Player: *drops dice on table, no one but the DM cares what comes up* "dead"
DM: *roll* Nope!
Player: *drops dice on table, no one but the DM cares what comes up* "dead"
DM: *roll* Nope!
Player: *drops dice on table, no one but the DM cares what comes up* "dead"

Welcome to MMO's!

[The-Last-Wolf]

Well, overall it does. Per chest it doesn't, but the odds increase that you WILL pull a bloodstone the more runs you make. Each chest is still 1% or .01.Kraahg
Hi again,

This is where I start to get a bit fuzzy on the math/theory.

I understand that the statistical likelihood (expressed as a %) of pulling a bloodstone increases with the number of runs.

As does the binomial distribution calculation % of pulling zero Bloodstones decreases with more runs

I understand that the universe has no memory and thus everytime you open that chest, the probability of pulling a BS is the same.

So I thought, this meant the following

The PROBABILITY of pulling a bloodstone never changes it is 1%
STASTICALLY roughly two thirds of players get one or more bloodstones at some point in their first 100 runs.

I believe these statments to both be true and mutually exclusive.

If anyone is an expert in this field I would love to hear your view.

Regards
Wolf

[Ungood]

For those that say once you have the gear you would have quit anyway:
Just because I have the gear I'm looking for doesn't mean I would have quit. I would have worked on all my other characters. Because the gear is a grind and gets boring after a point since the content had been run to ransack and the quest/area can be stomped into the ground, it is not challenging or difficult. The grind can also make some people leave.

Exactly! Then I can feel good about moving on to other parts of the game, not defeated and depressed that this stupid item keeps stonewalling me.

[Ungood]

Staying at 10th level DOES nerf your character rather badly in the grand scheme of things, so does staying on Korthos indefinitely. I assure you, you'll never find yourself running a raid stuck on Korthos. As for not TRing, yeah that doesn't nerf you TOO badly honestly, TR looks to be a bit over-rated... kinda like a blood stone.

So, I don't run a raid. That does not nerf me anymore then not getting a bloodstone.

Just like holding 10th forever does not nerf me anymore then not getting a bloodstone.

The reality is, It's all in what you want. What you perceive to have value in this game.

Nerf means, your poor for your level. Your on on par to what you should be. If I stay at 10th, Not only could I be a better 10th then all the others who jumped past it.


However if you want to REALLY make a suggestion for this, why not just ask that it be an over-priced item in the shop? You want a "Big Easy" button, well that's the biggest easiest button. You could grind up some TP, buy yourself the blood stone, and call it a week. You could even choose to spend real money on it.

No offense, but I see you have not looked around this forum much. That has already been suggested by many posters. And there seems to be a growing dissatisfaction with the drop rate established in this game, so much so, even OverRaided of Orion complained about it.

So I am not unique. or special. thinking this is bogus.


My question however was how much of a nerf is this really? A bloodstone provides a hand full of DPS over other options, and there ARE other options.

The better question is: What instrumental value is there in putting an item in the game that you make super rare?

[tihocan]

It's tricky, which is why people get confused
Oh I know, I gave up a while ago trying to explain probabilities on the forums because I haven't found out how to do it. Which is why I gave you the correct number but I'm not going to try to explain it :p (though if anyone is interested, shoot me a pm and we can try -- I'd just rather avoid derailing this thread into the kind of painful discussion on randomness that comes up regularly on these forums, and usually leads nowhere).

[Thuriaz]

Nah I've seen that suggestion around here before, as I said earlier I'm against it but if the drop rate is going to be made trivial as your suggesting then they might as well sell the items to boot.

Sticking at level 10 does nerf you in the larger picture, which is what I'm getting at, in terms of playing the game, doing quests, generally having fun with it. Staying level 10 defeats that, honestly your making the bloodstone sound like it's required for your character to move, to fight, or to do ANYTHING. It's nice, but it's not sufficiently superior to every alternative and the quests are not sufficiently difficult without it that it is REQUIRED to play. When an item that is required to keep a character viable is a 1% drop, that is a problem. When an item that is required to allow the character to function is nearly impossible to obtain (for example if spell components weren't sold but only found in chests/breakables) then that is a problem. When an item provides a minor advantage and is at a low drop rate... that's pretty acceptable.

HOWEVER

To address the real problem your having with this, and I say real problem because what your saying is "I'm bored of doing THIS one quest for this item" how about instead suggest that more of these items be available in more areas of content? How about giving it a 0.5% on every Raid chest, or 0.75% on every chest at that level? There are better options instead of a collectible turn in, or increasing the raw drop rate.

[Ungood]

Nah I've seen that suggestion around here before, as I said earlier I'm against it but if the drop rate is going to be made trivial as your suggesting then they might as well sell the items to boot.

I never said trivial, that is entirally your misconception of what I want.

I said obtainable. Just like other items of value are obtainable. IE: GS, Minos, Etc, Etc, Etc.


Sticking at level 10 does nerf you in the larger picture, which is what I'm getting at, in terms of playing the game, doing quests, generally having fun with it. Staying level 10 defeats that.

To be fair, so does not TRing. In fact I hear the "End game" is pretty dull in this game.


honestly your making the bloodstone sound like it's required for your character to move, to fight, or to do ANYTHING. It's nice, but it's not sufficiently superior to every alternative and the quests are not sufficiently difficult without it that it is REQUIRED to play.

If it not that much an item, then putting it in the game open to all, should not be that big a deal, case closed, put up for turn it and let everyone who wants to work for it, have it. Just like GS items and a slew of other good gear items that people want, and feel are a part of their game.


When an item that is required to keep a character viable is a 1% drop, that is a problem. When an item that is required to allow the character to function is nearly impossible to obtain (for example if spell components weren't sold but only found in chests/breakables) then that is a problem. When an item provides a minor advantage and is at a low drop rate... that's pretty acceptable.

You realize you just said "It's not that great" and then turned around and said "It's that great"

Which is one of the reasons why I think the people make a stand for the viability of a 1% drop rate, are just parroting what they have been told, and have not really thought the issue though.

[Zardonyx]

The PROBABILITY of pulling a bloodstone never changes it is 1%
STASTICALLY roughly two thirds of players get one or more bloodstones at some point in their first 100 runs.


This is correct. (Assuming the 1% figure is correct)

If there is a 1% chance of a drop, there is a 99% chance of no-drop.

In 100 runs, the chance of not getting a drop is (0.99)^100, or 36.6%

The chance of getting exactly one drop is (0.99)^99 * (0.01)^1 * 100, or 37.0%
(Breaking down the math - if you get exactly one drop, the chance of that is the chance of getting 99 no drops, and 1 drop, multiplied by the number of different ways you can get the drop, whether it happens on the first, second, third, etc... i.e., 100 different ways)

The chance of getting exactly two drops is (0.99)^98 * (0.01)^2 * (4950), or 18.5%
(There are 4950 different ways you can get two drops in a hundred events. It's combinatorics. Take my word for it :) )

The chance of getting exactly three drops is (0.99)^97 * (0.01)^3 * (161700), or 6.1%

The chance of getting exactly four drops is (0.99)^96 * (0.01)^4 * (3921225), or 1.5%

The chance of getting exactly five drops is (0.99)^95 * (0.01)^5 * (75287520), or 0.3%

---

If you run 100 runs at 1%, your expectation is 1 bloodstone, but it turns out you have nearly equal probabilities (roughly 1/3) of getting none, one, or two+

[Ungood]

This is correct. (Assuming the 1% figure is correct)

If there is a 1% chance of a drop, there is a 99% chance of no-drop.

*snip*

If you run 100 runs at 1%, your expectation is 1 bloodstone, but it turns out you have nearly equal probabilities (roughly 1/3) of getting none, one, or two+

All this is well and Good, but, remember, this only works if you do all 100 runs even after you get the bloodstone, or else the entire ratio gets skewed.

[knobaroo]

If your level 20, maybe start another character up to enjoy some of the low level content again, maybe on the way up you'll get a shiny blood stone.

NO! don't fall for it.

He's just trying to turn you into an Altohalic!!!

/runaway

[slimkj]

bound to my rogue while drunk.
Hehehe. There's a lesson there somewhere. ;)

[Cathalo]

At some point, you have to admit that there is something just wrong with the system. There is no question that we all play these games for rewards, be they in the form of gear, items, exp, or what have you. We seek because in the end of things we wish to find.

However, when a Game and drop system is designed to prevent you from finding what you seek, that is the pinnacle of a problem. And while I, like everyone, enjoy a bit of "Work" to get what I want, that is what makes it fun in most cases. However, there is a big fat line between a fun challenge and outright tedium.


http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z166/Ungood_Images/DDO/DDOIgiveup.jpg

Ok. I "Stripped the Box of everything of Value" and still did not get the item of value I was looking for. Well, I guess, the designers and developers want to inspire players to give up by making such obscene rarity to sought after items.

Respect and all to the power gamers that have quested after these super rare items and ran quests 100 times for said item and think that is what a game is supposed to be.

However, as a casual gamer, I see this game is stacked against me, and designed to deprive me (and others like me) of gear that is very beneficial to the characters I have in their game world.

Well, before all you go and jump on me, I would like to say for the record, this is the second time I have stripped this chest.


http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z166/Ungood_Images/DDO/DDOIgiveup2.jpg

So, you all win. I give up on this.

Apparently, the way the programmers have this system geared, is that these items are only for the select few, that have been determined by some means or mechanic.

There are many posts about the general disapproval regarding the nature of the rarity of sought after named drops, so this is not an unknown issue to Turbine, or to the DDO staff.

Just one more thing I suppose that is disenchanting me more and more from this game.

Your assumption that the only reason people play MMO's is because they want to be rewarded with rare loot or powerful items is completely wrong.

I play the game with perma-death. If my character dies I delete him. I play mostly solo and I always play quests that are the same level as my character and on hard difficulty. I never repeat a quest and I never use the Auction system or brokers or venders that sell anything other than mundane items. When I complete a quest it gives me more satisifaction than it does your average DDO player. The loot and rewards that come at the end are just icing on the cake for me.

[Thuriaz]

You realize you just said "It's not that great" and then turned around and said "It's that great"



No I said it's a minor advantage. It's not that great. Yeah they could release the item on a 50% drop rate and it wouldn't make much of a difference except for one key point, it would trivialize the work OTHERS have already put into obtaining it to tweak their characters. Basically you'd be alienating the first generation to appease the next, and there would be no more "carrot" for the newer players to chase, only a stick.

Further, it sounds like your having a round of bad luck ultimately. Even if the drop rate was raised to 3% it's ENTIRELY BELIEVABLE that you could run 300 or more runs and not receive it. The reason for that is being discussed in this thread on a separate track. The law of averages is more applied to EVERYONE who runs that quest and then balance out that number against all of the bloodstone drops. It should come out to about 1%, but there will be people who have run it 200 or 300 or MORE times and not get one in that listing, and there will (given enough players/alts/time) be someone who gets 20 of them 20 runs in a row. That's the nature of the mathmatics.

All MMO's use a carrot and a stick methodology to keep you playing and yes removing this one item as a carrot won't change much, except that will be one less carrot to seek after and eventually other items would then follow. When an MMO has nothing but sticks and no carrots people quit playing.

I know your going to say something along the lines of "They've made the carrot unobtainable" no, they've simply set the bar too high for you in particular, just because you can't get the carrot doesn't mean others haven't, can't, or won't. There's also more than one route to that carrot, as others have said you could grind for plat and get it much more quickly. It seems to me that for some reason that really viable alternative is being over looked by you. That implies your looking for a free carrot.

[Ungood]

No I said it's a minor advantage. It's not that great. Yeah they could release the item on a 50% drop rate and it wouldn't make much of a difference except for one key point, it would trivialize the work OTHERS have already put into obtaining it to tweak their characters. Basically you'd be alienating the first generation to appease the next, and there would be no more "carrot" for the newer players to chase, only a stick.

Again. just parroting that the best drop rate is when I have it and no one else does.

The reason why this fails, is because if you felt such a sense of accomplishment getting it because it was a 1% drop rate, nothing takes away that sense of accomplishment, if they raise the ratio to 50% today. Unless, you build your ego around the possession of that item.

Which makes things fall back upon on., "Yah it's a big deal to have one" because it's an e-peen thing, ergo, not a minor advantage.


Further, it sounds like your having a round of bad luck ultimately. Even if the drop rate was raised to 3% it's ENTIRELY BELIEVABLE that you could run 300 or more runs and not receive it. The reason for that is being discussed in this thread on a separate track. The law of averages is more applied to EVERYONE who runs that quest and then balance out that number against all of the bloodstone drops. It should come out to about 1%, but there will be people who have run it 200 or 300 or MORE times and not get one in that listing, and there will (given enough players/alts/time) be someone who gets 20 of them 20 runs in a row. That's the nature of the mathmatics.

That's not really how it works, but, I think that horse fly has been beaten to death with a base ball bat a few times already. (say that like the crows from Dumbo)


All MMO's use a carrot and a stick methodology to keep you playing and yes removing this one item as a carrot won't change much, except that will be one less carrot to seek after and eventually other items would then follow. When an MMO has nothing but sticks and no carrots people quit playing.

GS has disproved your entire premise. So have a slew of other items already in DDO. And making gear open to all, won't get a mass exodus, the first person to get a GS sword did not rage quit the game because "Everyone can have a GS sword!" In fact, I bet they helped others along to get theirs. Which is what builds an MMO community.

But, here is a little bit of info for you, ALL MMO's are build first and foremost on the principal of nominal progressive gain over time as the initial and principal means to keep players playing. In layman's terms, this method called "Leveling" and I might add, DDO, has a very fun solution to this, it's called True Reincarnation. A means involved to keep players constantly playing the progressive gain game.

So, yes, TRing is more valuable then a Bloodstone to the overall game mechanic.


I know your going to say something along the lines of "They've made the carrot unobtainable" no, they've simply set the bar too high for you in particular, just because you can't get the carrot doesn't mean others haven't, can't, or won't.

Yes, and people solo Reaver's Quest, on elite, Hup to it.


There's also more than one route to that carrot, as others have said you could grind for plat and get it much more quickly. It seems to me that for some reason that really viable alternative is being over looked by you. That implies your looking for a free carrot.

If the idea of "Questing for Gear I want" was just to buy it off the AH for plat, why not just put it in the DDO store and maybe dump in a vendor for it! Why have us Work at ALL? Why even have to kill a rare spawn, just make the whole game a money grind and we buy all the gear we want from Vendors!

You have only given Yet another reason why the 1% drop rate should be removed, not supported it's continual implementation.

[Ungood]

Your assumption that the only reason people play MMO's is because they want to be rewarded with rare loot or powerful items is completely wrong.

I play the game with perma-death. If my character dies I delete him. I play mostly solo and I always play quests that are the same level as my character and on hard difficulty. I never repeat a quest and I never use the Auction system or brokers or venders that sell anything other than mundane items. When I complete a quest it gives me more satisifaction than it does your average DDO player. The loot and rewards that come at the end are just icing on the cake for me.

Nice to know, Admired and Respected, Glad to hear that is how you play your game. But I wonder how long an MMO would last if they only catered to your demographic?

Maybe they should put a Character Death Real, server. I wonder how active it would be? Would be fun to see the results.

[karnokvolrath]

Im one of the poor fools that ran that chest into the ground for months and months and months.

And never pulled one.....

That said pulled a scourge chooker out of necro while doing it for xp, traded it strait across....happy camper :)

Dont let the grind get to you, no one is not gonna group with you because you cant link your bloodstone :).

Every once in a while i go out and ransack it when im bored, but i do it because its fun now and not a job....just take a deep breath, chill and get out of the desert :)

[Ungood]

Im one of the poor fools that ran that chest into the ground for months and months and months.

And never pulled one.....

That said pulled a scourge chooker out of necro while doing it for xp, traded it strait across....happy camper :)

Dont let the grind get to you, no one is not gonna group with you because you cant link your bloodstone :).

Every once in a while i go out and ransack it when im bored, but i do it because its fun now and not a job....just take a deep breath, chill and get out of the desert :)

Auctually I want the ring of Spell Storing, for obvious reasons.

[MrkGrismer]

Auctually I want the ring of Spell Storing, for obvious reasons.

I JUST got one on my Cleric, from the General's chest, this past weekend :D

Although not really that great right now ;) :D

[Thuriaz]

Again. just parroting that the best drop rate is when I have it and no one else does.

The reason why this fails, is because if you felt such a sense of accomplishment getting it because it was a 1% drop rate, nothing takes away that sense of accomplishment, if they raise the ratio to 50% today. Unless, you build your ego around the possession of that item.

Which makes things fall back upon on., "Yah it's a big deal to have one" because it's an e-peen thing, ergo, not a minor advantage.

What I'm getting at is, your always going to have people who complain about not being able to get this or that piece of gear, catering to them will eventually lead to a game that lacks all challenge and depth. I'm not calling YOU such a person but you must realize when you open a flood gate like that, it sets a precedent for changes.



Yes, and people solo Reaver's Quest, on elite, Hup to it.

You've fallen to trying to be offensive? Lets stick to the discussion at hand.




If the idea of "Questing for Gear I want" was just to buy it off the AH for plat, why not just put it in the DDO store and maybe dump in a vendor for it! Why have us Work at ALL? Why even have to kill a rare spawn, just make the whole game a money grind and we buy all the gear we want from Vendors!


The solution would be to make all items within the range of "usefulness" of the bloodstone a higher drop rate but make them BOUND TO CHARACTER instead of account. Otherwise you WILL be able to buy them at will, or just trade them among characters, since anything more than a 3 - 8% drop rate is going to be up on the auction house and eventually low enough in price that everyone will have one, do that with all items that are of a low drop rate and eventually people will stop farming them (or stop farming them as much) and will just start buying and reselling those items. You'll be creating the very situation you seem to not want, it will be an item that is easy to obtain via trade, it may have SOME value to a build but it will no longer be something worth questing for.

I'd be glad to see this, and even more gear, added to the random loot table of higher level quests. Maybe even the higher the level the greater the percentage of getting that item, however I'm of the solid opinion that changing it too much, making anything too available, reduces instead of encourages play.

[Ungood]

The solution would be to make all items within the range of "usefulness" of the bloodstone a higher drop rate but make them BOUND TO CHARACTER instead of account.

BtC or BtA, would be good. Very much like the newer zones are. This idea is already in place.


Otherwise you WILL be able to buy them at will, or just trade them among characters, since anything more than a 3 - 8% drop rate is going to be up on the auction house and eventually low enough in price that everyone will have one, do that with all items that are of a low drop rate and eventually people will stop farming them (or stop farming them as much) and will just start buying and reselling those items. You'll be creating the very situation you seem to not want, it will be an item that is easy to obtain via trade, it may have SOME value to a build but it will no longer be something worth questing for.

I am not asking for a 3% drop rate, I am asking to be provided a guaranteed method to obtain this item (and others like it).

The Turn in method has been proven to be a viable, and effective means to inspire people to time sink into a game. and sure, it might even take longer to gather items, like, no one can argue that it would take someone far longer to gather two thousand (2,000) bronze tokens, then it would to strip three chests, or pull it on a lucky run of the first time.

But, if they did it that way, players could earn it and/or take a gamble for it, but only the ones that really wanted it, would go after the 2K tokens, or they could get the 2K tokens while out stripping chests for it.

Here is an example: an very good one. The "Ring of Balance" from Invaders.

Players take pause at knowing that they need to grind though 10+ runs of this dungeon to get this item. And no-one is more awestruck at this then a first timer doing it at level. And maybe feel a bit overwhelmed at the idea that they have a lot more runs at what very well may have been a death-fest to get the ring.

BUT they know, if they are willing to tough it out, they have earned their ring, and no one can take that from them. Even more-so, everyone knows that everyone who has that ring had to earn it. No one got a lucky pull, no one got off easy. There is only one way to earn it, and no one gets off with skipping out on the effort. How does that compare in realty to "Oh yah, I pulled an eye stalk on my first run"

I have personally found people more willing to undergo 10+ runs to get the ring, and be pretty much "cool about it" because, like their levels, they are earning something, then anyone ever seemed when they were trying to farm for the eye stalk. And nothing infuriated someone more then after they had done a dozen of so extra runs for the eye stalk, and seeing someone else pull it. No real good comes from that type of system.

The Game should be about rewarding players for their efforts, which is what turn-in do, while 1% rolls on rare drop chests discredit actual effort and favor dumb luck.


I'm of the solid opinion that changing it too much, making anything too available, reduces instead of encourages play.

Ok that is your feeling, so my question is: "What do you base this one?"

Do you have one -single- example that supports this notion?

You see, in DDO alone, I have MANY examples that support my notion that the turn-in/progression/crafting methods build community and players feel good about their accomplishments.

The fact that they are open to all, does not cheapen the value of items or the effort put in to earn them. Abet, all the items in question are BtC/BtA, which I support as well. In fact, the idea that everyone can earn them, has put up the premises and ideal that everyone should earn them, and has thus turned them into a signature part of the game, a sign obtaining these items as right of passage. Earning your first Minos, making your first GS item. or even in some cases, just enduring though to get your ring of balance.

I say, everything should be available though Turn-in/Collect/Craft, with an additional 1% chance to pull it form a chest, that way, you luck-out and get it, what you really win, is not needing to grind for it.