Oh, how noobs are entertaining!

[LordDamax]

So I'm on this morning and it's dead, and I see a group for Ascension Chamber. Only one guy in it, but maybe he just put it up. So I hop in.

I ask if hes ever ran it before... because if it's an experienced group it's easy and a pike-fest, but if hes never run it before, it's usually a colossal wipe after an hour of failing puzzles.

He says hes never run it before, but he's a good player, as proven by the fact he was made an officer in his guild!

So I tell him I'll hang a bit and see if anyone who can lead it joins. I know it well, but I'm at work without a mic, so that makes leading it pretty darn hard.

He then tells me he knows we need a good rogue.

I ask why.

"There's traps in there right?"

No, theres no traps. I tell him, listen, I'm gonna bail and join this other group... a bit of advice... if you've never even stepped inside the lv 17 raid, its likely not a good idea to try and RUN the raid, let alone form the group when you believe there are traps and you need a rogue.

So I hop in a weapons shipment group. A few minutes later:

Noob tells you, 'picky picky'

I respond, no, not picky, just dont feel like wasting 2 hours. The raid's pretty much impossible when led by someone who's never run it before. There are three specific puzzles you must complete, and it took years of raid tweaking and practice before the players got good enough to run it casually. Your first time through? No way. Go learn it, but I'm not up for a raid failure today.

The response?

"You do know there are puzzle solvers right?"

Um. Huh? Really? I respond: "For ASCENSION CHAMBER?"

Him: "Yes its loaded on my screen now."

Me: "Really."

Him: "Yes, ascension chamber puzzle solver. Has all three puzzles."

*sigh*

I tell him he's full of it, one's a jumping puzzle that requires a teammate to guide you through it over voice chat. There's no puzzle solver for that.

He responds" We are better off without you anyway, have fun being stuck up. Squelched!"

Really? He squelched ME?

Oh well, I feel like I just got 2 hours of my life back! ;) Why is it that people who don't know shat try and talk like they do, and then wind up looking even more stupid than they did in the first place? Better to look like a moron than to open your mouth and prove it I guess.

Anyway, just my little entertainment this morning.

[Chette]

I almost made the mistake of joining a noob Abbot yesterday. I saw a half full lfm up and thought, what the heck, my boyfriend and I are both on, between the two of us we should be able to run them through it. But then I saw the party leaders name. I instantly recognized it as the name of the level 20 wizard who had spent the entire day yesterday with a LFM up for inferno of the damned saying 'need guide, last piece 3rd one, help plz!!!'. He spent no fewer than 8 hours trying to get that done, I am certain of it. My boyfriend and I chuckled and I was willing to bet that he hasn't done litany yet, but just assumed his sigil would get him in, but was not willing to waste my time to go figure out.

I'm more than willing to help people learn Abbot, but putting up an LFM for a raid that you know nothing about is an exceptionally bad idea. Glad you got out of it when you did :D

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Yeah, people like that are funny


I wish I had a chest so big you could zone into it." - Tolero at Gencon '07


And I have no idea how I missed this in your sig before LMAO. Best dev quote EVER!

Now I want to zone into Tolero's chest.... (and its ok Tolero, small chests can be nice too...)

[Chai]

I think where the hilarity ensues here is that:

A) There are still people who think three and four year old quests are hard, and time consuming. Dont ever play another MMO, because in most, you need to coordinate 60 people to beat on a mob for 20 minutes before it dies. One wrong move and its a 40 minute recovery time before you can try again. Raids in DDO are watered down excercises in metagaming compared to other MMOs.

B) Two hours of wasted time? Try 2 minutes to reform the raid and 1/6th the time to run it afterward.

C) And heres the kicker: Noob on your server is still a noob on your server, because no one will bother to teach said noob how to run the quest, or how to not be a noob. The better action to take would be to ask said noob if he wants to learn how to run the quest. This guy will likely be a noob years from now if he still plays, because vets dont give these people the time of day. Never mind the fact that someone had to show us how to run this too, or at least put up with us when we were all learning how to run it together. A small amount of patience here pays off ina few weeks when you run into them again and they are running this with their eyes closed. The time spent in the short run = time saved in the long run, because there are now less noobs on my server.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

C) And heres the kicker: Noob on your server is still a noob on your server, because no one will bother to teach said noob how to run the quest, or how to not be a noob. The better action to take would be to ask said noob if he wants to learn how to run the quest. This guy will likely be a noob years from now if he still plays, because vets dont give these people the time of day. Never mind the fact that someone had to show us how to run this too, or at least put up with us when we were all learning how to run it together. A small amount of patience here pays off ina few weeks when you run into them again and they are running this with their eyes closed. The time spent in the short run = time saved in the long run, because there are now less noobs on my server.

The idiot said he had a solver...someone who lies is not worth teaching because they will not learn.

The OP was pretty clear about his reasons for not teaching that quest on that day.

[Chette]

I think where the hilarity ensues here is that:

The problem is that the time to teach people how to do Abbot is when you have half a dozen people that know the raid, can scout and lead tiles. You can take the time in ice and tiles to have a knowledgeable person show each new person how to do that room. You can have an experienced person throw ice pads and reasonable assume that at least half your party will survive inferno, while the rest of the party gets accustomed to the chaos on the pad. You know you will have firewalls for trash, and rezzers that can survive. You can still complete in a reasonable amount of time while teaching new people the ropes.

The time to teach Abbot is NOT when you have somebody completely new to the raid leading it, who seems unwilling to admit that they are new to the raid. It's not a raid that you can solo while teaching 11 newcomers, even my over-inflated ego won't allow me to believe that.

[Impaqt]

I think where the hilarity ensues here is that:

A) There are still people who think three and four year old quests are hard, and time consuming. Dont ever play another MMO, because in most, you need to coordinate 60 people to beat on a mob for 20 minutes before it dies. One wrong move and its a 40 minute recovery time before you can try again. Raids in DDO are watered down excercises in metagaming compared to other MMOs.

B) Two hours of wasted time? Try 2 minutes to reform the raid and 1/6th the time to run it afterward.

C) And heres the kicker: Noob on your server is still a noob on your server, because no one will bother to teach said noob how to run the quest, or how to not be a noob. The better action to take would be to ask said noob if he wants to learn how to run the quest. This guy will likely be a noob years from now if he still plays, because vets dont give these people the time of day. Never mind the fact that someone had to show us how to run this too, or at least put up with us when we were all learning how to run it together. A small amount of patience here pays off ina few weeks when you run into them again and they are running this with their eyes closed. The time spent in the short run = time saved in the long run, because there are now less noobs on my server.

You've never actually run the Abbot raid have you?

On Thelanis, LFM's for abbot are pretty common. Its generally pretty easy to get into one as a first timer. At least with my LFM's. I generally dont screen because Guildies generally make up the core of the group and we have the puzzles covered.

I expect people to be Proactive and want to learn the puzzles. I dont expect noobs to try to feed me a line of BS and lead a raid they know absolutely nothing about.

[stainer]

I think where the hilarity ensues here is that:

A) There are still people who think three and four year old quests are hard, and time consuming. Dont ever play another MMO, because in most, you need to coordinate 60 people to beat on a mob for 20 minutes before it dies. One wrong move and its a 40 minute recovery time before you can try again. Raids in DDO are watered down excercises in metagaming compared to other MMOs.

B) Two hours of wasted time? Try 2 minutes to reform the raid and 1/6th the time to run it afterward.

C) And heres the kicker: Noob on your server is still a noob on your server, because no one will bother to teach said noob how to run the quest, or how to not be a noob. The better action to take would be to ask said noob if he wants to learn how to run the quest. This guy will likely be a noob years from now if he still plays, because vets dont give these people the time of day. Never mind the fact that someone had to show us how to run this too, or at least put up with us when we were all learning how to run it together. A small amount of patience here pays off ina few weeks when you run into them again and they are running this with their eyes closed. The time spent in the short run = time saved in the long run, because there are now less noobs on my server.

I am not sure we read the same OP.

[LordDamax]

Yeah, people like that are funny



And I have no idea how I missed this in your sig before LMAO. Best dev quote EVER!

Now I want to zone into Tolero's chest.... (and its ok Tolero, small chests can be nice too...)

Long story, most of which I don't remember (**** you alcohol!) but a discussion was had on chests, and when the raid chests used to be really big, and zoning into them yadda yadda and at some point that was blurted out. That, however, stuck in my memory. ;)

[LordDamax]

I almost made the mistake of joining a noob Abbot yesterday. I saw a half full lfm up and thought, what the heck, my boyfriend and I are both on, between the two of us we should be able to run them through it. But then I saw the party leaders name. I instantly recognized it as the name of the level 20 wizard who had spent the entire day yesterday with a LFM up for inferno of the damned saying 'need guide, last piece 3rd one, help plz!!!'. He spent no fewer than 8 hours trying to get that done, I am certain of it. My boyfriend and I chuckled and I was willing to bet that he hasn't done litany yet, but just assumed his sigil would get him in, but was not willing to waste my time to go figure out.

So, I go run weapons shipment, then hop in an epic claw pike, and when I finish those two I check the LFM for something else to do.

The guy is now running a Litany group. I swear I had to check and see if he was a wizard... no... so not the same guy, but my guess is he wasnt flagged for it either. ;)

[kailiea]

I tell him, listen, I'm gonna bail and join this other group... a bit of advice... if you've never even stepped inside the lv 17 raid, its likely not a good idea to try and RUN the raid, let alone form the group when you believe there are traps and you need a rogue.



So by that logic one should wait for someone else to figure out the raid for them? At one time no one knew the raid and it took someone stepping up and figuring out the puzzles and strategy so that it could be completed at all.

Thelanis needs more people to step up and take the star and lead/figure out stuff they don't know.... Legion won't always be here to hold your hand and give you a strategy ;)


Especially since Star Wars: TOR is out in 2 months and the vast majority of us are bored stupid due to lack of content/challenge.

[LordDamax]

I wasnt going to respond to this until I saw the other posts in support of my position - I didnt want to be an ass if it wasn't called for.



A) There are still people who think three and four year old quests are hard, and time consuming. Dont ever play another MMO, because in most, you need to coordinate 60 people to beat on a mob for 20 minutes before it dies. One wrong move and its a 40 minute recovery time before you can try again. Raids in DDO are watered down excercises in metagaming compared to other MMOs.

Have you EVER run the abbot? It's not a simple "old school hard quest" - its a quest that if its not executed with precision, you fail. And quite likely, you fail after an hour of trying to not fail. I've been in good groups with veterans running it who've screwed up due to voice lag, a DC, etc, and recovering and trying again can sometimes make the quest last over an hour trying to get tiles done.

Comparing it to a mindless buttonmash in another MMO is assanine.



B) Two hours of wasted time? Try 2 minutes to reform the raid and 1/6th the time to run it afterward.


Again, have you ever run the abbot? So you say that after 2 hours of floundering and failing, you reform in 2 minutes and bang it out in 20? Because all the noobs have suddenly learned tiles, ice, roids, scouting, the tells for inferno, how and where to go when inferno lands, how to control trash, etc etc etc?

Its not reaver where it can be taught to 11 pikers while they watch.

[JoshuJushin]

To the OP, was this on Ghallanda last night because I think I looked at that group initally but saw it up for quite sometime before passing it by.....
And I'm pretty sure about the other guy who was posting about that Inferno sigil, he may be a bit noobish but he seems like a nice guy...

Also as the leader of the group, he should take responsibility and know something about the quest/raid. If the lfm said something about being new or needing a guide then its another story but thats not the case here.

[The-Last-Wolf]

Hi All,

Having not run the Abbot raid on my first life, I am hoping to get a few runs in this time through.

I was gratified to see the following post recently on Argo

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=294048

I am not at level yet so cannot partake, but I hope that something similar is available when I get there. If not, I may take a leaf out of this posters book and try this myself.

I tend to avoid the star like the plague, and never put up LFM's. This is a mixture of inexperience (though I have led a couple of Tempest Spines by accident), and the fact that for 20 years I managed teams as a living and so the last thing I need in my relax time is to do more leading.

I am sure as I progress and get better at this game I will do more leading, but I do not understand people who put up LFM's for something they do not know unless its a specific "All new lets learn as we go" experience.

This constant "Need guide" mystifies me slightly. I suppose I can understand someone who wants/needs to run a quest/raid but cannot ever find an existant LFM asking this, but hell patience is a virtue, I would rather wait and join a group thats either

a) Dedicated to multiple runs to learn a quest, completely expecting multiple wipes until tactics are sorted, not zerging BYOH etc.

b) Willing to take newcomers and show them the ropes. Especially groups with several newcomers rather than just me (I have felt like a total piker sometimes in these).

I have learnt a metric f*** tonne of skills, tactics and quests from players willing to take newcomers, and I am trying where possible to return the favour as I get better at them.

I hope the OP and other experienced players will continue to differentiate between the newbs and the noobs.

Regards
Wolf

[cdemeritt]

but I'm at work without a mic



Work!? you get to play DDO at work? Were do I get a job like that?




Anyway, just my little entertainment this morning.

Might have been more entertaining to have stuck with it, and watch the guy deal with inferno... I usually miss the ice
islands and end up dead at the bottom of the water...

Actually I doubt from your story he'd make it 2 hrs unless it took that long to fill....

definitely not a new player friendly raid... At least I had a good guild who dragged me along for the many many practice runs....

[Shaamis]

I think where the hilarity ensues here is that:

A) There are still people who think three and four year old quests are hard, and time consuming. Dont ever play another MMO, because in most, you need to coordinate 60 people to beat on a mob for 20 minutes before it dies. One wrong move and its a 40 minute recovery time before you can try again. Raids in DDO are watered down excercises in metagaming compared to other MMOs.

B) Two hours of wasted time? Try 2 minutes to reform the raid and 1/6th the time to run it afterward.

C) And heres the kicker: Noob on your server is still a noob on your server, because no one will bother to teach said noob how to run the quest, or how to not be a noob. The better action to take would be to ask said noob if he wants to learn how to run the quest. This guy will likely be a noob years from now if he still plays, because vets dont give these people the time of day. Never mind the fact that someone had to show us how to run this too, or at least put up with us when we were all learning how to run it together. A small amount of patience here pays off ina few weeks when you run into them again and they are running this with their eyes closed. The time spent in the short run = time saved in the long run, because there are now less noobs on my server.

Arrogance will never learn. If he wanted to LEARN the quest, as opposed to running it to get the loot, and moving on, like what players post F2P DO, then he would have said something like: "I know its a hard quest, but I figured taking a couple runs to learn it (keywords; LEARN IT) couldn't hurt. Then when I get enough EXPERIENCE learning it, I'll be able to lead it effectively."

I didnt see any of that information conveyed by the OP, so I stand by the OP; guy didnt know it, and didnt want to LEARN it. he just wanted the lootz, and "kthnxbye" to the next quest.

/vomit

I shouldnt drink a whole case of beer in the morning.

[Lorz]

I think where the hilarity ensues here is that:

A) There are still people who think three and four year old quests are hard, and time consuming. Dont ever play another MMO, because in most, you need to coordinate 60 people to beat on a mob for 20 minutes before it dies. One wrong move and its a 40 minute recovery time before you can try again. Raids in DDO are watered down excercises in metagaming compared to other MMOs.

B) Two hours of wasted time? Try 2 minutes to reform the raid and 1/6th the time to run it afterward.

C) And heres the kicker: Noob on your server is still a noob on your server, because no one will bother to teach said noob how to run the quest, or how to not be a noob. The better action to take would be to ask said noob if he wants to learn how to run the quest. This guy will likely be a noob years from now if he still plays, because vets dont give these people the time of day. Never mind the fact that someone had to show us how to run this too, or at least put up with us when we were all learning how to run it together. A small amount of patience here pays off ina few weeks when you run into them again and they are running this with their eyes closed. The time spent in the short run = time saved in the long run, because there are now less noobs on my server.

Somedays man...your so far off point it hurts....QFT.

[MogeeMaleeg]

I am still relatively new to a lot of end game quests and do appreciate an experienced leader. That's why I really give props to my guild. Great group of people who have tought me tons.

As far as the OP, I certainly understand not wanting to try and lead that raid in the situation you were in. I try to take the time to help people through stuff I have done a thousand times. I usually do a teaching shroud once a week or so, (when my sanity can take it.) But there are sometimes where it is nice to just have a nice easy run where you do not have to call any shots. EVON6 = stressful for leader, easy for rest. Just do your job and ding epic token.

By the way, please learn the shroud puzzles. That is all.

[Shaamis]

Long story, most of which I don't remember (**** you alcohol!) but a discussion was had on chests, and when the raid chests used to be really big, and zoning into them yadda yadda and at some point that was blurted out. That, however, stuck in my memory. ;)

I think Shaamis was there, and I dont remember that, sure wish I didnt drink as much!

[smithtj3]

I don't think Chai is completely insane though I agree with the OP as far as believing that waiting for a raid group to form with an inexperienced leader with no promise of any veteran players joining would be a bit taxing for an on the clock, no voice, run. That being said, experienced players really should be careful not to completely e-p0wn perceived n00bs. Ignoring them just helps them pike to cap and flying into a diatribe just alienates them further and produces a n00b even more powerfully annoying than the previous iteration.

Case Study #1:

I roll on Ghallanda and there is a particular player that I ran into about level 7 while casually XP grinding my TR main. He always seemed to have an LFM up that read something to the extent of "The Pit Elite. NEED HELP PLZ!". If I joined the LFM I would find that he and some other poor fool were both dead and IP. He had no intention of recalling, he thought it was reasonable for me to fight down to him with a red dungeon alert, raise him, and finish the quest. Unfortunately for him, XP grinding and XP Penalty don't coincide so I always let him know he'd be better off recalling and retrying with a full party before I departed. Though I only joined his LFM's half a dozen times before I learned that this was just sort of his thing, I always saw his LFMs posted like this all the way until he hit level cap, well ahead of me. . . and now I see his Abbot, Shroud, ADQ, ToD, eVON, etc LFMs posted saying the same thing.

The other night he had a Shroud LFM up that read, "PLZ JOIN, I'M SORRY I MADE MISTAKES! I'M FIXED NOW!" or something along those lines. My mind was blown. This player had alienated most of the players on our server, still was apparently a n00b, and yet had still out leveled me to cap. How was this possible?! I know people say that level 20/TR/1750 favor/etc don't mean jack as far as experience, anyone can pike to 20, but I honestly didn't think I would meet someone who actually did. . . and got to cap faster than someone who is generally well liked and respected by the DDO community. The respected part is a bit if a stretch but you get the idea.

I feel like G-Town sort of fail boated when it came to this player. We managed to get him to level 20, above all a odds, and some how helped insure that he learn next to nothing along the way.

[Phidius]

... sure wish I didnt drink as much!

Heresy!!!

[Hendrik]

Solvers for Abbot.

That cracks me up.

Should have done just one thing before leaving LD;

Asked for the solver link.

;)

...hehe...


Solver for Abbot. Priceless.

[IronClan]

Yeah he lied about the solver... people who are put on the defensive by someone tend to do things like that, even when they are wrong.

Honestly can't blame him, when I came into the game impatient/elitist attitudes such as: How dare you waste my time LFM'ing without quest knowledge/Neg 10'ing/Not knowing quest/Not zerging or keeping up/Wasting time waiting on party to fill before entering quest (etc.) nearly made me quit, I still find them to be amazingly self important (it's a game get a grip). They are just more amusing these days than they are discouraging.

I can totally see why someone who was trying to be forthright (admited he never ran Abbot) would get defensive when someone else started lecturing him... It's human nature. Notice the guy making an assumption about needing a rogue? that was the guy just trying be conversational, save a little face, trying to sound like he knew a thing or two. Sure it's bad to assume, or try and bluff game knowledge, but ... he's already admitted he's never run it, he's already deferred to Damax's experience... He's admitted he doesn't know if a Rogue is really needed or not... So jump on his back when he makes a poor assumption right?

The proper response is something with more tact that maybe lets the guy off the hook let him save face. Sending the guy a lecture based on ones own personal sense of propriety says more about the lecturer than the lectured. But hey it makes entertaining forum posts so lets just rip the guy.

One of DDO's biggest problems (IMO) is that less experienced players can feel like they have to pass a vetting process that can easily discourage them enough to make them move on to other games... Vets can bluster and puff their chests out all they want, and say things like "good riddence" or "we need less noobs causing party wipes and long shrouds" but this attitude is short sighted and ultimately harmful to the game...

[Thrudh]

I know it well, but I'm at work without a mic, so that makes leading it pretty darn hard.

How can you play DDO at work? Doesn't anyone ever stop by? You just minimize the game in the middle of a raid and wait until the "interruption" leaves?

I suppose there are some jobs where this is possible - I once worked for a few months doing the night shift at a Boys Town - I was there solely if a kid woke up or tried to sneak out or if there were any other kind of problems...

I used to watch TV for 2-3 hours a stretch at that job with no interruptions... I guess I could have played DDO as well...

Although doing a PUG raid?? When you could go afk any moment? Not sure I'd want to do that....

[Razcar]

The other night he had a Shroud LFM up that read, "PLZ JOIN, I'M SORRY I MADE MISTAKES! I'M FIXED NOW!" or something along those lines.Lmao. Good he got himself fixed, keep those testosterone levels down FTW.

[LordDamax]

I hope the OP and other experienced players will continue to differentiate between the newbs and the noobs.

Regards
Wolf

I dont know the difference between the two, and don't bother telling me because I refuse to commit brain space to two words that basically mean the same thing, are pronounced the same, and are spelled differently, and the only distinction is the attitude of one vs. the other.

Personal pet peeve. Sorry for the rant ;)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I would gladly join a noob led Abbot....as the 12th man.

I'm not afraid of failure, but I am afraid of a two hour wait to fill, with little chance of success. :(

[LordDamax]

I don't think Chai is completely insane though I agree with the OP as far as believing that waiting for a raid group to form with an inexperienced leader with no promise of any veteran players joining would be a bit taxing for an on the clock, no voice, run. That being said, experienced players really should be careful not to completely e-p0wn perceived n00bs. Ignoring them just helps them pike to cap and flying into a diatribe just alienates them further and produces a n00b even more powerfully annoying than the previous iteration.

Case Study #1:

I roll on Ghallanda and there is a particular player that I ran into about level 7 while casually XP grinding my TR main. He always seemed to have an LFM up that read something to the extent of "The Pit Elite. NEED HELP PLZ!". If I joined the LFM I would find that he and some other poor fool were both dead and IP. He had no intention of recalling, he thought it was reasonable for me to fight down to him with a red dungeon alert, raise him, and finish the quest. Unfortunately for him, XP grinding and XP Penalty don't coincide so I always let him know he'd be better off recalling and retrying with a full party before I departed. Though I only joined his LFM's half a dozen times before I learned that this was just sort of his thing, I always saw his LFMs posted like this all the way until he hit level cap, well ahead of me. . . and now I see his Abbot, Shroud, ADQ, ToD, eVON, etc LFMs posted saying the same thing.

The other night he had a Shroud LFM up that read, "PLZ JOIN, I'M SORRY I MADE MISTAKES! I'M FIXED NOW!" or something along those lines. My mind was blown. This player had alienated most of the players on our server, still was apparently a n00b, and yet had still out leveled me to cap. How was this possible?! I know people say that level 20/TR/1750 favor/etc don't mean jack as far as experience, anyone can pike to 20, but I honestly didn't think I would meet someone who actually did. . . and got to cap faster than someone who is generally well liked and respected by the DDO community. The respected part is a bit if a stretch but you get the idea.

I feel like G-Town sort of fail boated when it came to this player. We managed to get him to level 20, above all a odds, and some how helped insure that he learn next to nothing along the way.

Thats nobodys fault but his own.

Here's the deal... I played in beta and I logged on and reserved names at 5:56am opening day of headstart. I've taken long breaks, and I've had addiction periods. I'm by far the complete expert, but I know my fair share.

I've taught people, and I've told them off too. It depends on my mood, and the mood and actions of the other people. When people beg and act like morons, it ticks me off and I usually tell off instead of teach. Just now I was in a Weapons Shipment and someone asked in party chat what the cooldown was on fighter haste boost. I said 30 second cooldown on all boosts. 10 mins later in party chat he asked "how many boosts?" - not thinking he was tlaking to me (or exactly what he meant) I ignored it. he asked again. Still not knowing, I ignored it. Then he sends me a tell "Are you going to answer me? How many boosts?"

REALLY? I'm now obligated to answer you? And you're gonna be a jerk about it? I told him I'm a sorc and have no idea about fighters. That was my nice way of answering him.

When you're an idiot or act entitled or are generally a feeb I'm not going to take my time to teach you squat.

Nevermind the fact 70% of my play time is at work, where I share an office with someone and cannot be on mic. Typing, especiallty when I'm trying to walk, fight, etc is a hassle. I NEVER put up LFMs when I'm at work, because I may need to afk quickly, and I absolutely cannot talk.

In that guy's case, I'd bet he was a jerk. He made demands of people (come fight to me, rez me, then finish the quest for me!). Do you really think ANYONE would WANT to help him? He likely angered anyone and everyone who could have taught him, and they said screw this, screw you, I'm going home. Don't blame others for not teaching, blame him for being a jackwad.

We all play this game for our own enjoyment, and many get that enjoyment in different ways. Some people enjoy helping others. Some don't. No one here is obligated to teach anyone... thats Turbine's job.

Teach if you want, don't if you want, I wont judge you either way. What WOULD be nice is if people wouldnt judge those who aren't willing to teach. I see it all the time. We don't judge you for what you do, why make us bad for wanting to play the game OUR way?

[LordDamax]

Yeah he lied about the solver... people who are put on the defensive by someone tend to do things like that, even when they are wrong.

Honestly can't blame him, when I came into the game impatient/elitist attitudes such as: How dare you waste my time LFM'ing without quest knowledge/Neg 10'ing/Not knowing quest/Not zerging or keeping up/Wasting time waiting on party to fill before entering quest (etc.) nearly made me quit, I still find them to be amazingly self important (it's a game get a grip). They are just more amusing these days than they are discouraging.

I can totally see why someone who was trying to be forthright (admited he never ran Abbot) would get defensive when someone else started lecturing him... It's human nature. Notice the guy making an assumption about needing a rogue? that was the guy just trying be conversational, save a little face, trying to sound like he knew a thing or two. Sure it's bad to assume, or try and bluff game knowledge, but ... he's already admitted he's never run it, he's already deferred to Damax's experience... He's admitted he doesn't know if a Rogue is really needed or not... So jump on his back when he makes a poor assumption right?

The proper response is something with more tact that maybe lets the guy off the hook let him save face. Sending the guy a lecture based on ones own personal sense of propriety says more about the lecturer than the lectured. But hey it makes entertaining forum posts so lets just rip the guy.

One of DDO's biggest problems (IMO) is that less experienced players can feel like they have to pass a vetting process that can easily discourage them enough to make them move on to other games... Vets can bluster and puff their chests out all they want, and say things like "good riddence" or "we need less noobs causing party wipes and long shrouds" but this attitude is short sighted and ultimately harmful to the game...

Nice rant. Except I didnt lecture him. I asked if he's ever ran this before, because it's a hard raid.

He said no, he hasnt, then started posturing about what a good player he was, yadda yadda.

I didnt lecture until HE became an ass and provoked me after I relatively politely left the group.

But yeah, my fault.

[Phidius]

...
We all play this game for our own enjoyment, and many get that enjoyment in different ways. Some people enjoy helping others. Some don't. No one here is obligated to teach anyone... thats Turbine's job.

Teach if you want, don't if you want, I wont judge you either way. What WOULD be nice is if people wouldnt judge those who aren't willing to teach. I see it all the time. We don't judge you for what you do, why make us bad for wanting to play the game OUR way?

This thread is moving too fast for me to craft my responses, so I'll just say QFT.

[Postumus]

I know it well, but I'm at work without a mic, so that makes leading it pretty darn hard.




Your boss won't let you wear your headset while you're playing DDO at work? LAME!

[LordDamax]

Your boss won't let you wear your headset while you're playing DDO at work? LAME!

I wear a headset. I just disturb others when I yell "Get the mephits!" into my mic at work ;)

[The-Last-Wolf]

I dont know the difference between the two, and don't bother telling me because I refuse to commit brain space to two words that basically mean the same thing, are pronounced the same, and are spelled differently, and the only distinction is the attitude of one vs. the other.

Personal pet peeve. Sorry for the rant ;)

No worries mate, I am old enough (41) to be impressed that I manage to understand 5% of interweb speak language.

Apologies for pushing your pet peeve button, allow me to rephrase.

I hope the OP and other experienced players will continue to differentiate between inexperienced players and complete f&&kwits.

Regards
Wolf

[Chai]

You've never actually run the Abbot raid have you?

On Thelanis, LFM's for abbot are pretty common. Its generally pretty easy to get into one as a first timer. At least with my LFM's. I generally dont screen because Guildies generally make up the core of the group and we have the puzzles covered.

I expect people to be Proactive and want to learn the puzzles. I dont expect noobs to try to feed me a line of BS and lead a raid they know absolutely nothing about.

Theres always one moaner who has to banter that because they dont agree with me that I must not have run the raid or know what I am talking about.

The OP deserves to have this situation happen to them over and over again unless they want to actually do something to raise the quality of play on their server. If they put in the time now, the saved time netted in the future is much higher. It like investing in stock shares of not having to group with idiots. You cant build that kind of portfolio overnight holmes.

Instead they chose to run away from the situation and join an LFM for a soloable quest. ZOMG Im wasting my time!!! Not in DDO. It took more time to type that rant than it would have taken to set a noob straight.

But whatever, either way their options are as follows:

A. Tell him its BS and then also ask him if he wants to learn the raid.

-or-

B. Continue running into similar quality players because sans actually doing something about it, their quality of play will never change.

Edit: There is an option C: Do NOT join PUGs. See the period at the end of that sentence? Good. Join pugs, and you are at risk of running into people who have less experience than you (dear god no!!!!), and do not want to admit this and instead try to schlub through it like they know what they are talking about, because of interactions with previous self proclaimed elite players who treated them like ****. Selective grouping FTW.

No matter how much people try to banter otherwise, I will not believe that the play quality disparity is 100% "the other guys fault". If it wasnt for these 11 pile ons, I would always emerge victorious!! :p

Like I stated before, if you consider helping someone in the Abbot a waste of time, dont ever play another MMO, and take up knitting instead. DDO raids are kittens compared to other games. Some of them take 60 minutes just to get people together and assign roles. A wipe is a 40 minute recovery just to try again.

[Bloodstealer]

I almost made the mistake of joining a noob Abbot yesterday. I saw a half full lfm up and thought, what the heck, my boyfriend and I are both on, between the two of us we should be able to run them through it. But then I saw the party leaders name. I instantly recognized it as the name of the level 20 wizard who had spent the entire day yesterday with a LFM up for inferno of the damned saying 'need guide, last piece 3rd one, help plz!!!'. He spent no fewer than 8 hours trying to get that done, I am certain of it. My boyfriend and I chuckled and I was willing to bet that he hasn't done litany yet, but just assumed his sigil would get him in, but was not willing to waste my time to go figure out.

I'm more than willing to help people learn Abbot, but putting up an LFM for a raid that you know nothing about is an exceptionally bad idea. Glad you got out of it when you did :D

Lol I saw that one, had a little chuckle myself, especially when the LFM was still only one person about 4hrs later :D

I love inferno lots but it took a little while and some exhausting runs to figure out my routes, so can't knock the poster for being honest - could of been worse, we could of joined it thinking it was gunna be a slick run thro only to be unpleasntly suprised and still bashing portals hours later :D

[Geodude07]

I wear a headset. I just disturb others when I yell "Get the mephits!" into my mic at work ;)

So do you actually do work? just a curiosity =P

anyways I gotta say that this whole situation is pretty hilarious but also reflective of typical DDO issues. It always annoys me that a more experienced player is held accountable for their actions and considered to be "hurting the community" when they don't want to spend 2 hours carrying a newbie through a hard quest. Your circumstances especially (playing while at work) make it all the more beneficial for you to not be grouping with new people.

Still I agree that it is possible you jumped on the guys back a bit with the whole rogue thing, or just said it in a way that was easy to take offensively in some weird way...but I mean it was honest advice for DDO. If you dont know a raid you really should not try to make a group for it, unless your LFM says something like "trying to learn this raid"

Of course the real issue is learning as a newbie, not even people at home with time off really want to teach most of the time, and to be honest any time I have run something I did not know ive always felt bad about it. Most groups require you to "know" the quest and so most of the time I join up hoping to fake my way through and learn. I watch what everyone is doing and try to keep myself discreet but still rack up kills. It works but this is a common issue as a newbie. Unless you bend a few rules you arent going to learn very easily in your playtime.

Yet that isnt really anyones fault. We cant blame every expierenced player that just wants to play and have fun. Pugs can be terrible or awesome, and sometimes you are in the mood to accept a miserable failure for the humor out of it, but like any other player no one wants to eat 2 hours every time they see the chance and end up with nothing but a repair bill. I mean I know I dont have 2 hours to blow every day haha

that all being said I still think newbies to quests should be accepted every now and then and I think that sometimes groups are a bit too closed on that prospect. Yet not joining an obvious suicide mission makes sense

[Bloodstealer]

The idiot said he had a solver...someone who lies is not worth teaching because they will not learn.

The OP was pretty clear about his reasons for not teaching that quest on that day.

QFT.

I would rather help run a noob thro a quest or raid, if they were actually open to wanting to learn. If they wanna BS there way thro the game then thats fine too, I just wont be part of it. The OP wasn't rude or elitist, he was simply not wanting to waste his time even attempting to play handholder to someone who would most likely of ran off, and ran back crying "HJEAL MEEE"... and "oh the solver is broke... obviously" :)

Anyhow it was probaly more beneficial to the noob i the long run... death tends slow you down a tad and make you think "What the hell.. next maybe I will......."
There is soooo much to be said about self- teaching :D

[Zaodon]

Nice rant. Except I didnt lecture him. I asked if he's ever ran this before, because it's a hard raid.

He said no, he hasnt, then started posturing about what a good player he was, yadda yadda.

I didnt lecture until HE became an ass and provoked me after I relatively politely left the group.

But yeah, my fault.

No, not your fault. It wasn't YOUR lfm, it was HIS. You were under no obligation whatsoever to "take over" or "teach him" anything. If it was your LFM, and he joined, well, then that would have been a different story. But the fact that you joined HIS group, and you decided it wasn't worth your time or that you wouldn't enjoy it, and dropped, is not in any way, shape or form your fault at all.

People who are saying "you deserved it" or "you are to blame for not teaching" are just plain wrong here. He was clueless and made a decision to stay clueless, you did not possess the power to change that fact. You just accepted it and moved on. Smart move on your part, imho.

[IronClan]

Nice rant. Except I didnt lecture him. I asked if he's ever ran this before, because it's a hard raid.

He said no, he hasnt, then started posturing about what a good player he was, yadda yadda.

I didnt lecture until HE became an ass and provoked me after I relatively politely left the group.

But yeah, my fault.

Rant :confused: Can you point out an exclamation mark or anything remotely indicating an emotional reaction? Just because someone doesn't see it like you see it doesn't mean they are ranting.

The lecture started right after he wrongly assumed a rogue would be good... And you tell him you're dropping and then lecture him about LFM'ing. When someone has admited that they know less than a more experience person, it is generally considered poor form for the more experienced person to then rub his nose in it... This often has the effect of making the less experienced person defensive and unwilling to listen to the experienced person.... Because really who wants to listen to someone like that? Even when they are correct?

The truth is we only have your side of the story, and yet even with only your side of the story I can still understand why he would be defensive based on what you typed.

[Thrudh]

I wear a headset. I just disturb others when I yell "Get the mephits!" into my mic at work ;)

Okay, what exactly do you do for a living?

[HallowedOne]

Ignorance is a bliss

[Impaqt]

Theres always one moaner who has to banter that because they dont agree with me that I must not have run the raid or know what I am talking about.

The OP deserves to have this situation happen to them over and over again unless they want to actually do something to raise the quality of play on their server. If they put in the time now, the saved time netted in the future is much higher. It like investing in stock shares of not having to group with idiots. You cant build that kind of portfolio overnight holmes.

Instead they chose to run away from the situation and join an LFM for a soloable quest. ZOMG Im wasting my time!!! Not in DDO. It took more time to type that rant than it would have taken to set a noob straight.

But whatever, either way their options are as follows:

A. Tell him its BS and then also ask him if he wants to learn the raid.

-or-

B. Continue running into similar quality players because sans actually doing something about it, their quality of play will never change.

Edit: There is an option C: Do NOT join PUGs. See the period at the end of that sentence? Good. Join pugs, and you are at risk of running into people who have less experience than you (dear god no!!!!), and do not want to admit this and instead try to schlub through it like they know what they are talking about, because of interactions with previous self proclaimed elite players who treated them like ****. Selective grouping FTW.

No matter how much people try to banter otherwise, I will not believe that the play quality disparity is 100% "the other guys fault". If it wasnt for these 11 pile ons, I would always emerge victorious!! :p

Like I stated before, if you consider helping someone in the Abbot a waste of time, dont ever play another MMO, and take up knitting instead. DDO raids are kittens compared to other games. Some of them take 60 minutes just to get people together and assign roles. A wipe is a 40 minute recovery just to try again.


So just to clarify... that would be a "Never ran the raid" confirmation right?

I'm starting to think you may have been the one with the lfm up even...

If people are not open to being helped, there no way to help them. THis thread isnt about Vets or Powergamers avoiding newbs.. Its about Noobs who think they know more than they do and dont want "help"

[Ironforge_Clan]

Okay, what exactly do you do for a living?

Well he wears a headset but doesn't want to disturb his co-workers when he needs to speak in game....

Option 1 - telemarketer/phone sales

Option 2 - "You want to fries with that? I can supersize it for only a dollar more"

[aldan]

Running Elite STK on lowbies on day.

Some goof was talking about how much dex he had and how awesome he was and I asked him the following:

Whats your STR. He responded by saying "I didnt waste the points on it because I am a finesse build. I say, so you can hit but not damage anything. Then he starts to argue with me once I show him he compendium that he is wrong and that STR is a damage modifier and that DEX when used for Weapon Finesse replaces your to-hit.

Then he says, I dont really need to damage anyways because my friend is a sorc and this toon is built for shield blocking. I almost puked in my mouth. Needless to say, his friend stated since sorcs have sooo much mana, he didnt need as much charisma and built a fighter/sorc. OMG I am thinking at this point. I ask him what his str is and he is at 8 STR. So the sorc runs outta mana after 1/10 of the part 1, the lame no STR max dex no con low reflex save rogue is dead in the firetraps and I am the only one to get them out.

I had to stay and witness this absurdity, it was priceless. Meanwhile the lame rogue blows a trap near the ice traps. It just cannot get better. I tried to be nice and say just do me a favor and really look into your STR theory of no STR equals good build.

Then to top it off, while the sorc dies because he aggroes all of zendrik, the rogue, is yelling HEAL! HEAL! at the cleric who is PM'ing me and laughing his arse off.

When we all started as young DDO players, I still had the concept of character building and what attributes meant. This kid couldnt read english. I mean it says what weapon finesse does. And what the heck is a shield blocking build.

Just had to share a very hilarious but alarming day a few months back when all the WOW kiddies were coming over and invading our servers with lunacy. Not all WOW players are bad, just the bad ones.

[LordDamax]

Okay, what exactly do you do for a living?

Totally off topic but since I've been asked twice... I'm in IT at my company, and my position is higher up the ladder (not a low-man helpdesk position), and very reactionary... unless somethings broken I dont have much to do unless we're implementing something new. I'm an insurance policy. The better I do my job, the less I have to do (if everything works right, I just sit and make sure it keeps working right. If I didnt get it going right originally, then I'm constantly fixing broken stuff)

So I have a lot of free time at my desk, sitting and waiting for something to break.

[smithtj3]

Thats nobodys fault but his own.

Here's the deal... *snip*

I wasn't trying to insinuate that we are all obligated to take on the responsibility of educating all these new players in a civilized fashion. I'm saying the Ghallanda's failure wasn't a lack of inspiring educational moments but that people kept accepting this guy into their groups, joining his LFM's and just generally bailing him out of trouble. We did this so effectively that he actually acquired XP faster than people who aren't horrifically gimped. If the guy got to level 20 before people realized they shouldn't play with him when I know he has been inept since level 7, that is a gross fail boat on our parts.

People should be more willing to show some tough love, not be cruel and mean, but be honest with people. Rather than accepting a bad player into the group or /tell them how he hopes they go die in a fire the group leader should just say something like, "It's not that I dislike you but I can not reinforce your play style by letting you get XP out of this quest. Come back when your experience level matches the experience level of your character. You'll be happier in the long run".

This is what you did so I support that but some players put new to quest players and consistently incompetent players in the same group. There is a difference between being a knowledgeable player but new to a quest and just generally not having a clue about everything from playing your build adequately to basic game strategy which is what I think Chai is referring to. The competent new to quest player will learn from doing that quest and enrich the game culture, the shows no progress player will not. Your point was more that whether he was incompetent or not you didn't have the resources necessary to guide him through the raid and there was no assurance that other experienced players would be joining to take on that roll. I don't disagree with how you handled it but probably wouldn't have argued with him about it when he became indignant.

[Hendrik]

I wear a headset. I just disturb others when I yell "Get the mephits!" into my mic at work ;)

SIG worthy!

:D

[Chai]

So just to clarify... that would be a "Never ran the raid" confirmation right?
Incorrect. I pioneered that thang, and remember it well. I dont run it often because there isnt much in there worth running it for. I may start running it again if and when it goes epic.


I'm starting to think you may have been the one with the lfm up even...
Incorrect. I am the one pointing out the large quantity of moaning about noobs being at fault, how this thread fits right into that, and how doing nothing about it simply causes more of the same.


If people are not open to being helped, there no way to help them. THis thread isnt about Vets or Powergamers avoiding newbs. Its about Noobs who think they know more than they do and dont want "help"

So the huge number of rants posted on these forums about "noobs who refuse to be helped at all costs" are just that, and the play quality disparity continues to grow, then I ask - Why even PUG at all at this point? Selective grouping FTW.

Its not about noobs who dont want help. Thats a one sided story, and obviously biased toward saying noobs are 100% at fault and vets are just in the clear to rant all they want. Its always 100% the other guys fault, right. If it werent for these 5 idiots, I would always succeed. :D It seems like there is a massive amount of ranting to this effect, because of the continuing need to reaffirm that the person ranting is doing things 100% correctly and the noob is at fault, and somehow all your peers jumping in to agree with you reaffirms this. LOL.

Noobs wont indicate they NEED help because of the overall negative attitude expressed toward them. This thread just reinforces this. Instead the noob in question tried to schlub his way through it acting like he knew what was up. I see this alot in raids where the leader asks if its anyones first time, no one says anything, and then at least one person screwes up in such a way that they obviously have no idea. If they told us we could have avoided that situation. Had we created a better, less hostile environment for them to do so, it would have been to our benefit. Like I said before, its like investing in shares of stock of never having to group with noobs, but this dividend pays off slowly.

Or, we can continue to come to the forums seeking our peers agreement and affirmation that terrible_pug_0128 was 100% noobs fault, and 0% our fault. You do see how rediculous this all looks when bantered for the 900th time, yes?

[werk]

When you're an idiot or act entitled or are generally a feeb I'm not going to take my time to teach you squat.

This^


Can't give more +1s :(

[TigrisMorte]

Yeah, people like that are funny



And I have no idea how I missed this in your sig before LMAO. Best dev quote EVER!

Now I want to zone into Tolero's chest.... (and its ok Tolero, small chests can be nice too...)
I've always thought more than a mouthful is a waste.

[IronClan]

I've always thought more than a mouthful is a waste.

That's what... she.... said.....?
:p

[Clay]

Chai, I don't disagree with the sentiment of your first post in the thread, but are you not assuming and little much, or over reacting?

The OP is not bemoaning the state of new players, and did indicate that at that time teaching was not an option due to the current situation. The OP is relating a single experience, not a sweeping style of player treatment.

Now you are saying that people must help each other. Good sentiment and true. But does that mean we are obligated to help people at any time, every time we log in? We must help people whether the circumstances regarding play time or out of game commitments allow?

I like mentoring. When I am power leveling my 2xTR I am not interested in Mentoring. My LFMs state: fast, be self sufficient. When an obviously not-self sufficient, not able to zerg person joins, I tell them: "I'd be happy to teach you anther time, but right now I am trying to do this as fast as possible." And then either they drop voluntarily or i boot them. Am I bad? Simply because at that time I had made plans with a buddy to power level thru some content? I am bad because at that time I didn't take the time to teach?

Or, even if you feel you are not over reacting... instead of Lecturing the OP, shouldn't you be taking the time to teach him how he should be playing/posting?

But I do agree that Damax is a noob!

Only a noob would argue with a noob and expect a postive outcome!

[Kalte]

So I'm on this morning and it's dead, and I see a group for Ascension Chamber. Only one guy in it, but maybe he just put it up. So I hop in.

I ask if hes ever ran it before... because if it's an experienced group it's easy and a pike-fest, but if hes never run it before, it's usually a colossal wipe after an hour of failing puzzles.

He says hes never run it before, but he's a good player, as proven by the fact he was made an officer in his guild!

So I tell him I'll hang a bit and see if anyone who can lead it joins. I know it well, but I'm at work without a mic, so that makes leading it pretty darn hard.

He then tells me he knows we need a good rogue.

I ask why.

"There's traps in there right?"

No, theres no traps. I tell him, listen, I'm gonna bail and join this other group... a bit of advice... if you've never even stepped inside the lv 17 raid, its likely not a good idea to try and RUN the raid, let alone form the group when you believe there are traps and you need a rogue.

So I hop in a weapons shipment group. A few minutes later:

Noob tells you, 'picky picky'

I respond, no, not picky, just dont feel like wasting 2 hours. The raid's pretty much impossible when led by someone who's never run it before. There are three specific puzzles you must complete, and it took years of raid tweaking and practice before the players got good enough to run it casually. Your first time through? No way. Go learn it, but I'm not up for a raid failure today.

The response?

"You do know there are puzzle solvers right?"

Um. Huh? Really? I respond: "For ASCENSION CHAMBER?"

Him: "Yes its loaded on my screen now."

Me: "Really."

Him: "Yes, ascension chamber puzzle solver. Has all three puzzles."

*sigh*

I tell him he's full of it, one's a jumping puzzle that requires a teammate to guide you through it over voice chat. There's no puzzle solver for that.

He responds" We are better off without you anyway, have fun being stuck up. Squelched!"

Really? He squelched ME?

Oh well, I feel like I just got 2 hours of my life back! ;) Why is it that people who don't know shat try and talk like they do, and then wind up looking even more stupid than they did in the first place? Better to look like a moron than to open your mouth and prove it I guess.

Anyway, just my little entertainment this morning.

Honestly I can't believe you would post this on the forums. There are Noobs in game and Noobs in life... I wish I could get my 1 minute back for wasting my time on this post.

Bit of Advice, before you hit submit think for 10 seconds before you do it.

[Impaqt]

I guess that clears up whos LFM it was.....

[cdemeritt]

I guess that clears up whos LFM it was.....

Impaqt, has anyone told you that you are much nicer person in game than you are on the forums?:)

[SardaofChaos]

Impaqt, has anyone told you that you are much nicer person in game than you are on the forums?:)

I'm sure that's true of at least 20% of the active forum population :P


I dont know the difference between the two, and don't bother telling me because I refuse to commit brain space to two words that basically mean the same thing, are pronounced the same, and are spelled differently, and the only distinction is the attitude of one vs. the other.

Personal pet peeve. Sorry for the rant ;)
Going to explain it anyways for the benefit of everyone else then. You may wish to reconsider though, or perhaps just not post in threads concerning one of the two.

A newb is a new person, newbie, someone who has just started playing(or maybe has been playing for a while) and doesn't really know all that much about the game but they are having fun and trying to learn as they go along.

A noob is someone who may have been playing for any amount of time at all, generally believes they know best, and will tell you you're wrong if you try and say anything against any of their ideas.

There are very good reasons why people will teach the former and not the latter.

[Bloodstealer]

Theres always one moaner who has to banter that because they dont agree with me that I must not have run the raid or know what I am talking about.

The OP deserves to have this situation happen to them over and over again unless they want to actually do something to raise the quality of play on their server. If they put in the time now, the saved time netted in the future is much higher. It like investing in stock shares of not having to group with idiots. You cant build that kind of portfolio overnight holmes.

Instead they chose to run away from the situation and join an LFM for a soloable quest. ZOMG Im wasting my time!!! Not in DDO. It took more time to type that rant than it would have taken to set a noob straight.

But whatever, either way their options are as follows:

A. Tell him its BS and then also ask him if he wants to learn the raid.

-or-

B. Continue running into similar quality players because sans actually doing something about it, their quality of play will never change.

Edit: There is an option C: Do NOT join PUGs. See the period at the end of that sentence? Good. Join pugs, and you are at risk of running into people who have less experience than you (dear god no!!!!), and do not want to admit this and instead try to schlub through it like they know what they are talking about, because of interactions with previous self proclaimed elite players who treated them like ****. Selective grouping FTW.

No matter how much people try to banter otherwise, I will not believe that the play quality disparity is 100% "the other guys fault". If it wasnt for these 11 pile ons, I would always emerge victorious!! :p

Like I stated before, if you consider helping someone in the Abbot a waste of time, dont ever play another MMO, and take up knitting instead. DDO raids are kittens compared to other games. Some of them take 60 minutes just to get people together and assign roles. A wipe is a 40 minute recovery just to try again.

Ok - well as I read the OP's post he joined a PUG (sometimes its the quickest way to get some in game action) but when getting to understand that the poster didnt actually have a clue what the raid was about he offered some advice, lend him some of his experience and took the time to help this player. That was I guess met with "I know best cos I am a good great player and dont need your advice.. I have a solver" ..... So I think that answers your Point A

We were all new to the game once andthe mechanics of it all can be quite daunting, gameplay, playstyle, toon build, gear, stats etc... its a minefield for all the new players, so what better than to have someone offer some friendly advice, without prejudice or ridicule, just as the OP had done... I would have been more than grateful. This particular green horn decided it was better to air on the side of BS... basically no matter what the OP could or would have said, this particualr player wasnt gunna listen and therefore handholding to raise his level of ability in the game was a waste of time... for both parties.
Plyers who are receptive to some advice, often go along way to becoming good players in this game, idiots don't.
BTW, I dont know the OP at all and never quested with him/her most likely in all the years I have been playing this game, but I am of like mind and will offer any and all advice I can to new players or first timers.. anyone who joins a PUG i may advertise would most likely vouch for that... but whre in my Turbine T&C's does it state that in order for me to play the game I have to handhold new players or my VIP status will be down graded.. it doesn't.. its my choice to, just like its mine or the OP's or anyones choice to just say "OK this is gunna be a waste of time, I tried, best let them learn the hard way..."
So this kinda answers your Point B

Pugs are an unfortuante necessity of any server,I am sure everyone would like to be able to grab 5 - 11 other guildies at any given moment, but its not always possible, but it actually shows the game has some life in it... try playing EU servers over last 18months then come back to here and telling people to avoid playing Pugs, sometimes you have to.
Sure I agree when you join a Pug you may be parly to some good, bad and darn right ugly experiences... but you missed the fact that the Op actually offered to help this noob so in fact he was aware of what could and most likely would go wrong... however after receiving resistance to his advice and then the BS... he like many others thought better of running this particular Pug... so that kinda answers your Point C.

[donfilibuster]

I know it well, but I'm at work without a mic, so that makes leading it pretty darn hard.


Dude u rock, abbot at work! do u schedule an appointment to defeat a deity or just tell your secretary that you'll be busy saving the world?
/nosarcasmhere

[callforkills]

I wouldn't be entertained by this, i hate noobs who thinks they know what to do,
where to go etc etc and then even try to tell us what to do. I would get annoyed
and not reply his tells lol.

[flynnjsw]

Honestly I can't believe you would post this on the forums. There are Noobs in game and Noobs in life... I wish I could get my 1 minute back for wasting my time on this post.

Bit of Advice, before you hit submit think for 10 seconds before you do it.

Why don't you get your 5 minutes that it took to waste your enegry to type this and your other reply back as well? In other words, follow your own advice.

[Bloodstealer]

Totally off topic but since I've been asked twice... I'm in IT at my company, and my position is higher up the ladder (not a low-man helpdesk position), and very reactionary... unless somethings broken I dont have much to do unless we're implementing something new. I'm an insurance policy. The better I do my job, the less I have to do (if everything works right, I just sit and make sure it keeps working right. If I didnt get it going right originally, then I'm constantly fixing broken stuff)

So I have a lot of free time at my desk, sitting and waiting for something to break.

Hmmm I want that job :)

Anyhow.. there was no need to clarify why you play when you play, who you choose to play with or how you play YOUR game TBH.

People need to ask themselves the question.. who pays for whos game time if your a VIP or who buys whos TP's if your F2P... yip you do, no one else. So play when u want, where u want, with whoever you want and however you want.

Whoever got on their high horse about the OP playing without VC at work and not wanting to disturb while playing at work.. what hell has it got to do with you anyway.. does it stop you enjoying your game time... No!! so quit your whinning and get on with your own game, that you pay for.

By the way, I work from home alot nowadays and sometimes I dont wanna use VC either ... not cos of disturbance, but sometimes I get fed up with all the trash talk and egomaniacs that join groups... you know the ones who claim to know it and if not have solvers for it anyway so dont need anyone else to have an opinion... sound familar??

/Peace :D

[Malky]

I don't think Chai is completely insane though I agree with the OP as far as believing that waiting for a raid group to form with an inexperienced leader with no promise of any veteran players joining would be a bit taxing for an on the clock, no voice, run. That being said, experienced players really should be careful not to completely e-p0wn perceived n00bs. Ignoring them just helps them pike to cap and flying into a diatribe just alienates them further and produces a n00b even more powerfully annoying than the previous iteration.

Case Study #1:

I roll on Ghallanda and there is a particular player that I ran into about level 7 while casually XP grinding my TR main. He always seemed to have an LFM up that read something to the extent of "The Pit Elite. NEED HELP PLZ!". If I joined the LFM I would find that he and some other poor fool were both dead and IP. He had no intention of recalling, he thought it was reasonable for me to fight down to him with a red dungeon alert, raise him, and finish the quest. Unfortunately for him, XP grinding and XP Penalty don't coincide so I always let him know he'd be better off recalling and retrying with a full party before I departed. Though I only joined his LFM's half a dozen times before I learned that this was just sort of his thing, I always saw his LFMs posted like this all the way until he hit level cap, well ahead of me. . . and now I see his Abbot, Shroud, ADQ, ToD, eVON, etc LFMs posted saying the same thing.

The other night he had a Shroud LFM up that read, "PLZ JOIN, I'M SORRY I MADE MISTAKES! I'M FIXED NOW!" or something along those lines. My mind was blown. This player had alienated most of the players on our server, still was apparently a n00b, and yet had still out leveled me to cap. How was this possible?! I know people say that level 20/TR/1750 favor/etc don't mean jack as far as experience, anyone can pike to 20, but I honestly didn't think I would meet someone who actually did. . . and got to cap faster than someone who is generally well liked and respected by the DDO community. The respected part is a bit if a stretch but you get the idea.

I feel like G-Town sort of fail boated when it came to this player. We managed to get him to level 20, above all a odds, and some how helped insure that he learn next to nothing along the way.

Is that for real ?












...











We're in the twilight zone folks :D

[Bloodstealer]

Honestly I can't believe you would post this on the forums. There are Noobs in game and Noobs in life... I wish I could get my 1 minute back for wasting my time on this post.

Bit of Advice, before you hit submit think for 10 seconds before you do it.

/FAIL
If you had only taken your own advice there.. you could of saved yourself posting this waffle..

Just to clarify I thought for 15 seconds before typing "/FAIL" to this post then another 10 seconds like you suggest before I hit the submit button... does this constitute an acceptable thought process :D

[Bloodstealer]

[QUOTE=Malky;3526651] Is that for real ? /QUOTE]

Yip - i joined one of this players Pit runs on Normal a whiles back... now I normally solo the Pit around lvl 9 so I know what lay ahead when I joined, though never expected this players raw cheaK TBH.
He was dead when I entered and not far inside, by the acid pipe, so I said Ill take you to shrine in Furnace 1l - I went did the acid lever, went did the 7 levers in Backup Gen then went up the pipes in Furnace 1, got shrine open and he rezzzed... then he complained I should have rezzed him on the run with a RD scroll cos all rogues should use scrolls with their UMD (I'm Lvl 9, how much UMD do you think I had - do you know what UMD actually is)
Anyhow I said lets wait for joiners.. to which he said they can join as we carry onto complete.... ok then lets not get to hastey and stick together..... yeah he said, before running off in the wrong direction swearing he knew the way... after he finally admitted he had had a mind blank I went and got him and we carried on to the Security room.
I said lemme sneak to each wheel then we can clear one at a time - yeah ok.. then he runs off aggroing them all till were on yellow alert and casters hitting him with everything they had.. it didnt last long but at least I could go get the wheels and just grab his stone on the way out (even got the underwater chest :0 - he couldnt figure out where that was BTW ).

Back to shrine, he rezzes then says "You going to HJEAL me then?"... err with what exactly??? - he said you have a wand dont you, all rogues carry wands - to which i said yes I do but Ive used it all on you already. Then he saw me heal myself up and demanded I use it on him (i say demanded cos he was now using CAPS). I cant ive run out of wands, use pots... he said he had no CLW pots left, he had used the 10 he bought, then again demanded I again use my wand - i cant, none left i said... but you just healed yourself - yes with a candy cane, SO GIVE ME A CANDY CANE COS YOU HAVE EVASION I NEED IT MORE THAN YOU !! (that much he did get right). I did trade him a cane with 7 charges - never got a ty tho.

Anyhow off to furnace 2 - I had to go up cos he had to go afk a few..... hmmm
Now onto the Breaker room.. yes he ran off and got lost again - and my patience was wearing thin - I asked him to stay and play with the slimes while i hit the levers - yeah ok... then he runs in try to hit a lever by the main lever and .. one hit dead. Needless to say I had to ress him cos the slimes were a pain, and he cud at least be an aggo puller - i did this and went up to finish the levers.
MCR went without any real issues.. except he broke his weapon on the slimes, which lightened my mood, so off to Bilge pumps where its just a run up kill the trogs then pull lever and shrine... well he hit ZERG button again got us some Dungeon aelrt ran back shouting HJEEEEAL me... I just snuck to the lever pulled it, killed the trogs and then grabbed his stone :) - he said open up the secret room -
NAH I said i'll take you to another shrine and we can save this till later.... NO NOW!... he said.

I am ready to /RAGE QUIT which isnt like me. But then a cunning plan came to mind.... DISCALIMER - Now I am not normally a nasty or a vindictive person but this guy took the biscuit...

I grabbed his stone featherfalled down to the fire pit at bottom of ladder, then dropped his stone climbed back up and said there youll be safe here, shrine isnt far, then recalled and left party :)

Dang I am exhausted now.... some noobs just werent meant for DDO!!!

[Malison]

I don't think Chai is completely insane though I agree with the OP as far as believing that waiting for a raid group to form with an inexperienced leader with no promise of any veteran players joining would be a bit taxing for an on the clock, no voice, run. That being said, experienced players really should be careful not to completely e-p0wn perceived n00bs. Ignoring them just helps them pike to cap and flying into a diatribe just alienates them further and produces a n00b even more powerfully annoying than the previous iteration.


IMO the problem in the original situation is this: Shroud.

Most groups ask if there's a first-timer there, but then they toss off one-line instructions for each part, or link a solver for part 3. This leads to tons of people who've got multiple greensteels and can't solve a 4x4. But Shroud is the standard of pug raids.

Let's consider the other ingame raids.
Chronoscope: usually run by massively overlevelled parties. Is a joke.
VoD: kill one enemy and some trash.
HoX: keep three mobs healed for 5 minutes. On normal you don't even see beholders.
ToD: kill two enemies. kill one enemy while distracting trash. kill one or two enemies while distracting trash.
Titan: coordinate four groups running different puzzles, one of which if done wrong makes you fail. then coordinate 3 tasks while up to 9 people pike.
Reaver: keep one person healed while up to eleven people pike. load solver.

What's my point? This: raids are mind-numbingly simple (with the possible exception of Titan). And for the ones that could involve a moderate amount of thought (shroud 3, reaver's puzzle), we tell people to load a solver.

So is it any wonder that when a new player tries Abbot for the first time, they think they can take the first 11 on the lfm, load a solver, and /pike?

And then they get into goggles and fail.

[kinar]

Even though I've been playing since launch (I took about a year break twice since then), I've never actually run abbott (did get my first character flagged for it the other day though)...I've got a general idea of how it works from reading various threads on the forums about it and the thought of a solver never really occured to me since they are called puzzles but from what I've heard aren't really puzzles at all (puzzles are typically logic driven while the abbott ones are more twitch).

But I decided to do a bit of google searching for a puzzle solver...I'm guessing the guy had one of the two links up on his screen.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=123028
http://hubpages.com/hub/Black-Abbot-DDO

[LordDamax]

Ok - well as I read the OP's post he joined a PUG (sometimes its the quickest way to get some in game action) but when getting to understand that the poster didnt actually have a clue what the raid was about he offered some advice, lend him some of his experience and took the time to help this player. That was I guess met with "I know best cos I am a good great player and dont need your advice.. I have a solver" ..... So I think that answers your Point A

Here's something I didnt consider before. In a way, I DID try and help the guy. The way Bloodstealer puts it... and I'm not hopping on any bandwagon here, I did try and give the guy advice.

You ever run this before? No? It's hard. No, you don't need a rogue... listen, this is rough, I dont think we'll do it, gonna go do something else.

No, not my exact words, but thats the jist of what I said before I dropped group. Then I get the tell from him instigating with me.

Some people cant/dont want to be helped. Some already know everything and take offense to being helped. Like I said, I've been around here forever, but I havent done everything. I joined my first epic OOB the other day. The LFM said "know it". I didnt, but I hopped in and immediately said "Never ran this before but I'm competent and I underatand epic tactcis. What do I gotta do? If you'd rather someone who knows it, I understand." The leader took a moment to explain, and we banged the quest out and had a great time. Many players are NOT like that. Like the guy telling me he had an abbot solver up on his screen. He knew it all, didnt want help, and took offense to my advice.

You can say I lectured him all you want, but some people dont want to hear diddly, and get defensive the instant you say ANYTHING, let alone criticize. I never called him a noob, I never said he was an idiot. I told him I was gonna go do something else.

Apparently it was my responsibility to take time out of my day and teach him.

Whats hillarious is if I made another forum account, came on here and posted under a different name:

"Hey all! I'm new, I jumped into someone's LFM and told them they had to teach me how to do the quest, and he booted me! What the heck?! You vets are jerks!"

You'd have been all over that post for the noob being a jackarse.

But I post that I politely left a noob's (who was an idiot) group, and I'm a jerk for not following my obligation to teach him.

So which is it, are we obligated to teach, or not? Because if we are, stop yelling at the noob who demanded to be taught then booted. If we're not, stop *****ing at me for not taking my time to teach the fool.

[flynnjsw]

Wow, you're angry arent you? I have a job where I CAN play at work... and thats an epic fail at life?

Anyone else here wish they could play at work and make a decent living? Hands? Anyone? According to Kalte you're all losers.

I'm a huge loser at life then.

[Razcar]

Anyone else here wish they could play at work and make a decent living? Hands? Anyone? According to Kalte you're all losers.I only get to troll the forums :(

[LordDamax]

Even though I've been playing since launch (I took about a year break twice since then), I've never actually run abbott (did get my first character flagged for it the other day though)...I've got a general idea of how it works from reading various threads on the forums about it and the thought of a solver never really occured to me since they are called puzzles but from what I've heard aren't really puzzles at all (puzzles are typically logic driven while the abbott ones are more twitch).

But I decided to do a bit of google searching for a puzzle solver...I'm guessing the guy had one of the two links up on his screen.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=123028
http://hubpages.com/hub/Black-Abbot-DDO

First link is for Litany, not Ascension Chamber.

Second link is hardly a 'solver'.

[Chette]

Lol I saw that one, had a little chuckle myself, especially when the LFM was still only one person about 4hrs later :D

I love inferno lots but it took a little while and some exhausting runs to figure out my routes, so can't knock the poster for being honest - could of been worse, we could of joined it thinking it was gunna be a slick run thro only to be unpleasntly suprised and still bashing portals hours later :D

It was definitely very confusing the first dozen times through :) I was doing necro at the time myself and would have offered to show him the route except he was level 20 in a level 14 quest and I was a level 15 double TR not willing to ruin my experience.

[smithtj3]

Is that for real ?

. . .*snip*. . .

We're in the twilight zone folks :D

Yes, for reals. His English is a little more broken than that but he apparently can speak three languages which I don't doubt. He can't, however, run a quest to save his life.

[Hunta-EU]

Back when this raid was broken and we were still employing the roids flesh to stone ghouls technique I can remember one night we tried for 6 and a half hours before our PUG group completed.

As someone said there had to be someone who learned it first.

Maybe he had a link to my roids walk through complete with stoned ghouls :D although afaik CM trashed the forum so i guess not.

[Phidius]

Wow, you're angry arent you? I have a job where I CAN play at work... and thats an epic fail at life?

Anyone else here wish they could play at work and make a decent living? Hands? Anyone? According to Kalte you're all losers.

I'm a wannabe loser, 'cause I sneak off to conference rooms to play :D


...
I am ready to /RAGE QUIT which isnt like me. But then a cunning plan came to mind.... DISCALIMER - Now I am not normally a nasty or a vindictive person but this guy took the biscuit...
...

Excellent read, but you might want to edit out your confession of griefing another player (no matter how well deserved).

[Dandonk]

Wow, you're angry arent you? I have a job where I CAN play at work... and thats an epic fail at life?

Anyone else here wish they could play at work and make a decent living? Hands? Anyone? According to Kalte you're all losers.

I'm a loser. I'm a loser, and I'm not what I appear to be....

[werk]

Yip -
...
I am ready to /RAGE QUIT
... then recalled and left party :)
...

I have had this exact same experience, on Thelanis, same conclusion. I solo 90% of the quest before the pileon has me so angry and exhausted that I eat the wasted time/resources/energy and just recall leaving their stone.

I usually immediately see another LFM up, "IP, NEED HELP, AT LAST ROOM, FREE XP!"


Sigh.

[doomboy]

i'm one of those guys who try and help out noobs, and one thing you need is PATIENCE. they will run in the wrong direction, go into the wrong areas, jump into acid, and basically make the entire thing hell. in almost every quest, i have had to spend half the time helping out the noob. in my opinion, noobs should stick with noobs. let us who know what to do go ahead and finish the quest.

[Cyr]

Incorrect. I pioneered that thang, and remember it well. I dont run it often because there isnt much in there worth running it for. I may start running it again if and when it goes epic.


Out of curiousity Chai I think I have read before that you play on my home server of Sarlona who are your alts?

[OzmarDDO]

I grabbed his stone featherfalled down to the fire pit at bottom of ladder, then dropped his stone climbed back up and said there youll be safe here, shrine isnt far, then recalled and left party :)

Dang I am exhausted now.... some noobs just werent meant for DDO!!!

Wow. Nice. :) How is it that this guy is not on everyone's squelch list already?

-Ozmar the Unbelieving

[Xeraphim]

Noobs are why I run Tempest Spine with my TR

I usually do it when I am in the mood for entertainment and am between level 10 and 13. It's always a blast!

[HAL]

[.... some noobs just werent meant for DDO!!!

You have the patience of a Saint!

[Bloodstealer]

Wow. Nice. :) How is it that this guy is not on everyone's squelch list already?

-Ozmar the Unbelieving

If you wanna Squelch me then be my guest... but maybe you needed to be there.

The noob activiteis like running, zerging and crying HJEEEAAL ME! I can go along with, especially as he obviously had no clue about the PIT and was not open to actually listening to someone who did - I was taught the best way to help yourself is to ask someone first and learn from it. I offered the help, as I normally do anyway (anyone who has run quests or raids with me or my guild mates for their first time I would like to think would agree).
But this player quite clearly was above all that and knew best but got quickly found out. That aside tho it was his constant tirad of DEMANDS that for to me were just rude and stupud. - Give him Candy Canes, telling me how to run a quest I am able to solo proficiently (even after his 7 or 8 deaths). Telling me my rogue is poorly built cos at Lvl 9 I shud of been rezzzing him with RD scrolls on UMD and I shud be healing him constantly with wands cos his x10 CLW pots are all gone... sorry but that was a little to rich and he got the harsh ending he deserved.

Sometimes in life you have to be cruel.. to be kind!

[Razcar]

I usually immediately see another LFM up, "IP, NEED HELP, AT LAST ROOM, FREE XP!"
Some pug-rules of mine:

Never join an LFM written in caps
Never join an LFM containing leet-speak
Never join an LFM with lots of speling erors
Never join an LFM trying to "sell content", like MANY LOOTZ. (Cookies are an exception though.)
Never join an LFM containing imperatives, such as "HELP ME" or "JOIN NOW"

Edit: ...unless you are in the mood for a challenge dwarfing solo Epic Chrono, want to watch a trainwreck in motion, or if you happen to be Mother Theresa reincarnated.

It's amusing reading about the hardships of those that do join these, though.

[doomboy]

You have the patience of a Saint!

try being me. i usually just hang around, helping noobs, and my god are they SLOW and stupid!

[Bloodstealer]

Some pug-rules of mine:

Never join an LFM written in caps
Never join an LFM containing leet-speak
Never join an LFM with lots of speling erors
Never join an LFM trying to "sell content", like MANY LOOTZ. (Cookies are an exception though.)
Never join an LFM containing imperatives, such as "HELP ME" or "JOIN NOW"

Edit: ...unless you are in the mood for a challenge dwarfing solo Epic Chrono, want to watch a trainwreck in motion, or if you happen to be Mother Theresa reincarnated.

It's amusing reading about the hardships of those that do join these, though.

Note to self...... :D

BTW - I knew the one I joined was that particular train wreck waiting to happen, but I figured knowing the quest well enough I could help him... but rudeness and insolence, well cant teach the player how to be civil, cant force them to heed some time-served experience and I certainly dont owe them gifts.

[Hendrik]

Some pug-rules of mine:

Never join an LFM written in caps
Never join an LFM containing leet-speak
Never join an LFM with lots of speling erors
Never join an LFM trying to "sell content", like MANY LOOTZ. (Cookies are an exception though.)
Never join an LFM containing imperatives, such as "HELP ME" or "JOIN NOW"

Edit: ...unless you are in the mood for a challenge dwarfing solo Epic Chrono, want to watch a trainwreck in motion, or if you happen to be Mother Theresa reincarnated.

It's amusing reading about the hardships of those that do join these, though.

Never join an LFM with leaders name starting and ending with xXx.

[fedechicco]

If I may say my point of view about noobs and Raids:

I'm not an arrogant noob, I capped 2 toons and I'm lvl18 with my TRed tank, whoever played with me knows I'm seldom zerging etc. etc.
I'm something you can't call an experienced player though i'm not a noob anymore.
On the otherhand I'm not an english native speaker, and I dunno why you all guys playing and speaking in the mike have such different volumes, i can almost never hear any of you, except someone that's shouting.
As a result i got no mic (you'd prolly not understand my accent, even if i'm working on that) and I can understand little of what others are saying. That's another problem, many people associate no mic = bad player, it's not like that, just type and there you go, i can even understand what you're saying!

Anyway...

I took necro 4, it's been a month or so now, and I finally made it through the flagging for LotD. I finished LotD, all 4 bosses, and here I am, ready for the Abbot!

I put the LFM for the abbot, expecting a normal raid: just go inside, listen to a few tricks about what not to do, then buff and smash everything.

First guy who entered tells me: "i can do ice and roids".
I was already facepalming, what the heck is he saying? Then the second guy enters and tells he can do ice, and ask if we got someone for the googgles already. Ok, time to look it up on ddowiki.

Some minutes of reading and I was all like: OMG these puzzles! I can't even understand what's written on the wiki! I even never got inside that raid! What am i gonna do?
I took my good friend google and ask him what to do, and in his immense knowledge he told me to read this:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=228451

Great! Now i'm like a noob that knows what to do! It's already a half way to the success right?

In an hour or so we got a full raid, I asked to an experienced player to take the lead and we started.
I put the LFM for normal, cause on lvl17 as a first timer it's madness to takle it elite already.
People started complaining cause we gotta do it elite, or epic, and other foolish comments followed.

I was on ice at the first run, with another first timer and an experienced player, and no clerics.
Good, I saw the video, i know exactly how to do it!
As I took the wand, out of nowhere the experienced player decided to dive in the water, leaving me and the other first timer alone to face the ice.... Guess what, in the guide there's not written, or i didn't see it, that the islands disappears in 15 seconds.

Ice wipeout = party wipeout cause we had no wands for inferno.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Run 2.

Never mind, recall and redo! This time I was on roids! That's easy! Ok, we make it through, all except phase guys. When we go back there to kick abbot's *** and redo the phase puzzle, all of the guys who were in ice died before the first inferno, the wands were dropped and we all died in inferno.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Run 3.

I was on ice again, with a cleric. Divine intervention will let you swim into the death water. Why nobody tells that?
Anyway, the experienced guys in roids failed, and before the first inferno I died with the wand, and the experienced cleric who was with me died too. Again wipe out.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Run 4.

I was the designated right spotter now, I ended up in phase. All of the other phase guys fell, and it was up to me.
Ok, volume of the speakers at max to hear what the goggle guy (very low mic volume) was saying, with someone else with high volume that sometimes spoke and make my freakin hears almost bleed. He explains me how to hold the client, etc. It all went well, i was almost there til the goggle guy made a mistake (he admitted it himself) and i fell too.
We did it through the first inferno, and we died in the second.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Run 5 and 6.

I don't remember, but finally I couldn't take it anymore and we all dropped.
Now I'm no more a noob, I know the puzzles and next time i'll know what to do, but here is my remarks:

1. How can a noob learn how to do things? I cannot go inside by myself, I couldn't even get past the first abbot fight.
And yeah, i read the guide and the wiki, i even watched the videos, this doesn't let me know all about the quest, i'll fail it anyway the first time.
2. You see that many times we failed not because of noobs theirself (there were 3 of us who were first timers, all of us TRed already), but because of experienced players that starts playing with autorun, or that get impatient and goes without organization, letting 2 noobs into ice.

After I said this, I wanna thanks a lot every single player that yesterday helped me out with those abbot's runs, now that I know how to solve things I feel much better putting new LFM, even if somebody comes in going all like: "OMG you are a noob!" pointing and laughing.
They could have all dropped at the first fail, cause there were too many noobs, still many of those didn't, thx for that.

[MrkGrismer]

Ok, time to look it up on ddowiki.

Some minutes of reading and I was all like: OMG these puzzles! I can't even understand what's written on the wiki! I even never got inside that raid! What am i gonna do?

I was on ice at the first run, with another first timer and an experienced player, and no clerics.
Good, I saw the video, i know exactly how to do it!
As I took the wand, out of nowhere the experienced player decided to dive in the water, leaving me and the other first timer alone to face the ice.... Guess what, in the guide there's not written, or i didn't see it, that the islands disappears in 15 seconds.

Ice wipeout = party wipeout cause we had no wands for inferno.

Color me puzzled:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Ascension_Chamber


Iceball Wand Room - You and your partner have to equip a special wand and take in turns to created ice islands on the deadly water to progress to the other side. Each island lasts for around 15 seconds and the cooldown is about the same for the wands, so you have to alternate the creation of the islands as you go across. Try to place the islands a reasonable distance apart and not under a bolt path from the traps that are present. Each wand has 10 charges, new wands are supplied on completion where you will find a portal to return you to the main encounter area.When both parties are standing on an island and one of you is going to cast an island next, try to make sure you do not stand on/behind the player casting the island as this can cause the DDO aim mechanic to bug and fire the wand charge in a random direction - this can cause you to fail the challenge as you have no island to progress to when the one your standing on dissapates.

(I have not flagged for Abbott yet on any character, so I can't say anything from experience, but I've read the above page).

[fedechicco]

yeah, i checked and it wasn't on the guide Abbot 2.0 on the forum, i read better that one.

[Llewndyn]

So I'm on this morning and it's dead, and I see a group for Ascension Chamber. Only one guy in it, but maybe he just put it up. So I hop in.

I ask if hes ever ran it before... because if it's an experienced group it's easy and a pike-fest, but if hes never run it before, it's usually a colossal wipe after an hour of failing puzzles.

He says hes never run it before, but he's a good player, as proven by the fact he was made an officer in his guild!

So I tell him I'll hang a bit and see if anyone who can lead it joins. I know it well, but I'm at work without a mic, so that makes leading it pretty darn hard.

He then tells me he knows we need a good rogue.

I ask why.

"There's traps in there right?"

No, theres no traps. I tell him, listen, I'm gonna bail and join this other group... a bit of advice... if you've never even stepped inside the lv 17 raid, its likely not a good idea to try and RUN the raid, let alone form the group when you believe there are traps and you need a rogue.

So I hop in a weapons shipment group. A few minutes later:

Noob tells you, 'picky picky'

I respond, no, not picky, just dont feel like wasting 2 hours. The raid's pretty much impossible when led by someone who's never run it before. There are three specific puzzles you must complete, and it took years of raid tweaking and practice before the players got good enough to run it casually. Your first time through? No way. Go learn it, but I'm not up for a raid failure today.

The response?

"You do know there are puzzle solvers right?"

Um. Huh? Really? I respond: "For ASCENSION CHAMBER?"

Him: "Yes its loaded on my screen now."

Me: "Really."

Him: "Yes, ascension chamber puzzle solver. Has all three puzzles."

*sigh*

I tell him he's full of it, one's a jumping puzzle that requires a teammate to guide you through it over voice chat. There's no puzzle solver for that.

He responds" We are better off without you anyway, have fun being stuck up. Squelched!"

Really? He squelched ME?

Oh well, I feel like I just got 2 hours of my life back! ;) Why is it that people who don't know shat try and talk like they do, and then wind up looking even more stupid than they did in the first place? Better to look like a moron than to open your mouth and prove it I guess.

Anyway, just my little entertainment this morning.

There are two ways you can look at this. The first way, and the one I am sure you were looking at it, is "LOL this noob has no idea what he's in for what a waste of time", which is fine, there's no problem with that and I would NEVER tell you to waste your time on a raid you know is going to fail. Unless...

There's the other way to look at this. You could have been a hero to this noob. You could have told him "We need X to complete this mission, I have run it before so I know we need blah and blah", and, even if you were still leaving to do weapons shipment, told him what he would need and what to look for in party makeup. You could have understood EVERYONE has to run something for the first time, no amount of reading the forums or watching other people run it or research can adequately prepare you for doing it yourself. So as far as you are concerned (and I am not flaming or trolling or anything, I am not taking issue with what you did, just stating a different path) since he had never run the mission he had no business running it for the first time. You said the server was dead. He wanted to run Ascension Chamber. Could he have explained in the LFG "1st timer, need guide" or something like that? Sure. Do any "vets" EVER join those? Rarely. So he had a few choices:

1. Put up his own LFG and hope he got some people who knew what they were doing, and hope he could compensate for his noobness by listening and learning the quest. - What he did, though the vet he got (you) was not in the mood to help him out, which, again, is fine, but how is he supposed to learn if no one will learn him?

2. Put up an LFG that says "1st time, I have no idea what I am doing" and wait for all of the great players to knowingly flock to him and walk him through the raid (having never done Ascension Chamber myself, not sure what all you need so cannot say I would not make some of the same assumptions he did, though I would have voiced them differently to be sure) - We all know how those turn out.

3. Wait for an LFG to come up that says "Hello, I love noobs. Please join my Ascension Chamber raid and I will gladly walk you through it", which I dunno about the rest of you, but I see tons of those on all the time.

Again, not flaming or anything, but he did #1, which, on a slow day on the server, I would have been inclined to do as well. I may be slow, but I don't see why it is forum post worthy that someone wanted to experience new content and was making honest mistakes in their ideas about said content they had never run.

So, to summarize: While you were WELL within your right to do what you did, and for a THIRD time I am not lambasting your decision, you could have done this guy and the playerbase as a whole a great deed by offering more help or even a quick "hey you need X and you don't need Y" and thus show the player that not all vets are elitist (I am NOT saying you are elitist.) and helping him to build good groups for that kind of raid in the future in the bargain.

As an end note if he squelched you he is a moron and you're prolly better off. (I make compelling arguments!)

[Llewndyn]

I don't think Chai is completely insane though I agree with the OP as far as believing that waiting for a raid group to form with an inexperienced leader with no promise of any veteran players joining would be a bit taxing for an on the clock, no voice, run. That being said, experienced players really should be careful not to completely e-p0wn perceived n00bs. Ignoring them just helps them pike to cap and flying into a diatribe just alienates them further and produces a n00b even more powerfully annoying than the previous iteration.

Case Study #1:

I roll on Ghallanda and there is a particular player that I ran into about level 7 while casually XP grinding my TR main. He always seemed to have an LFM up that read something to the extent of "The Pit Elite. NEED HELP PLZ!". If I joined the LFM I would find that he and some other poor fool were both dead and IP. He had no intention of recalling, he thought it was reasonable for me to fight down to him with a red dungeon alert, raise him, and finish the quest. Unfortunately for him, XP grinding and XP Penalty don't coincide so I always let him know he'd be better off recalling and retrying with a full party before I departed. Though I only joined his LFM's half a dozen times before I learned that this was just sort of his thing, I always saw his LFMs posted like this all the way until he hit level cap, well ahead of me. . . and now I see his Abbot, Shroud, ADQ, ToD, eVON, etc LFMs posted saying the same thing.

The other night he had a Shroud LFM up that read, "PLZ JOIN, I'M SORRY I MADE MISTAKES! I'M FIXED NOW!" or something along those lines. My mind was blown. This player had alienated most of the players on our server, still was apparently a n00b, and yet had still out leveled me to cap. How was this possible?! I know people say that level 20/TR/1750 favor/etc don't mean jack as far as experience, anyone can pike to 20, but I honestly didn't think I would meet someone who actually did. . . and got to cap faster than someone who is generally well liked and respected by the DDO community. The respected part is a bit if a stretch but you get the idea.

I feel like G-Town sort of fail boated when it came to this player. We managed to get him to level 20, above all a odds, and some how helped insure that he learn next to nothing along the way.

Don't tell them about me!

[MrkGrismer]

yeah, i checked and it wasn't on the guide Abbot 2.0 on the forum, i read better that one.

I guess you must have just missed this:


Ice Puzzle

When you arrive at the puzzle, there will be two wands. Each pickup one. Before you start the puzzle, break the first sarcophagus as outlined above.

The idea is to cast ice islands, so you can cross the water. Bare in mind, the water is insta-death acid, as with the main area. The objective here is to navigate around the course, to the other side of the “maze”. You alternate casting the wand, pointing it at the water, so that it creates island.

This is how it is done:

1. Pick up a wand each. (NOTE: The wand has a cooldown of 12 seconds)

2. Once you have cast/drank jump and haste, and ensured you have featherfall equipped; the first person casts near the start of the water.

3. Jump to that ice island.

4. While the first person’s wand is on the timer, the second person casts with the wand; ensuring the island is a reasonably distance ahead (but close enough for you to jump onto).

5. Effectively, you repeat the casting stages over and over, alternating, until you reach the other side of the puzzle.

6. Once you have completed the puzzle, and get to the other side; pickup the additional ice wands that are situated to the left and the right.

The new wands are a must for the main room fight.

Some noteworthy points:

Traps!

Be very careful when casting ice islands, to watch for the traps. The traps are in the form of darts that set out from the walls at regular intervals. These traps have no saves, and do damage of around 120 per tick. When casting the ice islands try and cast them in between these traps.

Do not stand on top of each other

Furthermore, when standing on the ice islands, ensure both of you are not standing on top of one another. If you are standing on top of each other, when casting the ice wands, they tend to behave erraticately and shoot upwards into the air. The best method is to have one person standing to the left or the ice island; and one person standing to the right of the ice island. You should establish this before you start casting.

Puzzle Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsyzwXh55Xk
(this is a new puzzle video, including the breaking of the sarcophagus’)

(Sorry for the thread de-rail, back to your regularly scheduled rant...)

[Angelus_dead]

If I may say my point of view about noobs and Raids:

Let's get this out of the way first:
Is the Abbot raid a good game design? No, it is not.
So the truth is that much of the problems you experienced are due to errors by the devs. But as the devs aren't going to fix Abbot, you'll just have to deal with it.


I put the LFM for the abbot, expecting a normal raid: just go inside, listen to a few tricks about what not to do, then buff and smash everything.
Here's the thing about the Abbot raid: only around half the players need to know how to do it. The other 6-7 guys can hang out, follow along, and contribute DPS/healing when the boss is fighting.



Great! Now i'm like a noob that knows what to do! It's already a half way to the success right?
That viewpoint would be close to correct if the Abbot challenges had been well designed, but they are poorly designed. For something so divergent from regular gameplay, they are too unforgiving and too dependent on weak and inconsistent aspects of the software implementation.


Ice wipeout = party wipeout cause we had no wands for inferno.
That's not quite right. An ice failure means your party can still survive, because it's possible to both survive Inferno on the platform and to survive the death water and run back. The actual problem with failing ice is that you didn't break the sarcophagus, so the Abbot's hitpoints are restricted to at least 1 and you can't beat him. It would be technically possible to beat him up in the main room and be sent to the puzzles again, but the smarter choice is to recall and hit the tavern so you can start again fresh.



Divine intervention will let you swim into the death water. Why nobody tells that?
Some people might be concerned about getting in trouble for spreading an exploit.



1. How can a noob learn how to do things? I cannot go inside by myself, I couldn't even get past the first abbot fight.
A typical level 20 spellcaster can beat the first Abbot fight solo, as can some Monks, Rangers, or Barbarians. With 1-2 people to help you it should be no trouble, and you can go on to practice the puzzles.

In fact, that's how good Abbot players got that way: They entered in small parties for the specific purpose of learning/practicing the puzzle rooms. You come in, hurt the Abbot, all go through one door, solve the puzzles in that room, and then recall to try again until you've learned them all.

To some extent, some members of your raid party were getting that kind of practice while struggling with you. But that was a slow an inefficient way to learn, because it meant that when 1-2 people were doing a puzzle, the other 10-11 guys were standing around waiting.

If you want to beat Abbot, there are two ways:
1. Find a group with a core of knowledgeable players who can beat challenges, and attach yourself as a pileon who comes to help DPS and carry loot.
2. Find a couple people to practice with and upgrade yourself into a knowledgeable practiced player.