Warchanter Bard/Tempest Ranger/Fighter (12/6/2)

[Majestic8705]

This is loosely inspired by one of my characters in NWN2.

Basically, I'm just wondering if it'd make sense to do 12 levels Bard (for Warchanter II), 6 levels of ranger (for Tempest I), and then 2 levels of fighter (for extra hps and feats).

Starting stats:
Race - Drow
STR - 16
DEX - 12
CON - 14
INT - 10
WIS - 8
CHA - 16

I figure all my ability 'levels' would go either to STR or CHA (never played a bard on DDO so not really sure how useful the higher DCs and SPs would be for CHA, however I do plan on smacking things around with a couple dual-wielding swords...I'm just not sure which would be the better way to go).

And while I think I know the answer to this...even though the actual feats concerning Two Weapon Fighting require higher DEX to use then what I'm starting with, being 6 levels Ranger means I get them *regardless* of what my DEX is, right?

As far as feats go...basically, all of them have to go towards getting the prestige classes (so Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack) but that leaves me with I *think* four free feats (two from regular levels, two from fighter levels) which would probably go toughness, Over-Sized Two Weapon Fighting, and then some wiggle room with the other two (I'd either go for some more combat oriented feats, or I'd take some more 'caster' based feats).

Once again, inquiring minds want to know: does this make sense?

[Valindria]

This is loosely inspired by one of my characters in NWN2.

Basically, I'm just wondering if it'd make sense to do 12 levels Bard (for Warchanter II), 6 levels of ranger (for Tempest I), and then 2 levels of fighter (for extra hps and feats).

Starting stats:
Race - Drow
STR - 16
DEX - 12
CON - 14
INT - 10
WIS - 8
CHA - 16

I figure all my ability 'levels' would go either to STR or CHA (never played a bard on DDO so not really sure how useful the higher DCs and SPs would be for CHA, however I do plan on smacking things around with a couple dual-wielding swords...I'm just not sure which would be the better way to go).

And while I think I know the answer to this...even though the actual feats concerning Two Weapon Fighting require higher DEX to use then what I'm starting with, being 6 levels Ranger means I get them *regardless* of what my DEX is, right?

As far as feats go...basically, all of them have to go towards getting the prestige classes (so Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack) but that leaves me with I *think* four free feats (two from regular levels, two from fighter levels) which would probably go toughness, Over-Sized Two Weapon Fighting, and then some wiggle room with the other two (I'd either go for some more combat oriented feats, or I'd take some more 'caster' based feats).

Once again, inquiring minds want to know: does this make sense?

The short answer is: "no"


In most cases the min level for bard should be 14. This will give you another bump in the inspire courage song. In some cases a smaller bard splash can work but generally 14-20 are good places to stop with bard levels.

You would get TWF and ITWF for free with 6 ranger but you would not have enough dex (17) to qualify for GTWF. Coming from a drow warchanter (well former currently virtuoso), drow is not the best for bards unless you are going SS with max CHA. The main issue is the d6 with the lower starting con.

Anyway if you haven't checked out the bard guide give it a look over. If this is something you are set on and want help planning I suggest you put it into Ron's planner 1st to see if you like it.

[DrNuegebauer]

I think that's a bit harsh Val!

12 bard gets +5 to hit and +7 damage (assuming warchanter with full enhancements). A pure 20 spellsinger get +7/+7 (assuming all enhancements). [pretty sure those numbers are right]

So the key component is fine (damage song).

Drow might not be the optimal race for this - but each to their own.
I'd suggest starting stats of 16 str 16dex 14 con, 10 int, 8 wis 12 chr.

That way you can take the greater two weapon fighting feat - which is really important if fighting with 2 weapons!

[thegreatneil]

Try this perhaps:
-AltheaSteelrain's Theletha-
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275381
-TheGreatNeil's The Solo Artist-
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=292625

[unbongwah]

As a novelty build, bard 12 might work out; I've seen similar builds posted before. But as Val correctly (if harshly :)) points out, most heavily-bard builds go to at least 14 which gets you lvl 5 spells plus Attack III enh & next bump in Inspire Courage for +2/+1 from your bardsong. So you have to ask yourself if the hit to party DPS and spells is worth it.

CHA: the main reason why a bard would want high CHA is to boost the DCs on their CC & sonic spells. But if you want to do that, your best bet is a pure bard Spellsinger with max CHA and a healthy set of metamagic feats. A heavily multiclassed bard like yours just won't have the DCs necessary to be effective with CC spells, unfortunately; so you're better off putting your stat pts elsewhere (usually STR for more melee DPS).

Drow aren't the greatest choice for a melee WC, IMHO, thanks largely to their CON penalty, but they're not terrible, especially if you haven't unlocked 32-pt builds yet.

Personally I think rogue / bard / ftr works out better, esp. since Tempest I got nerfed in U5: something like rogue 3 / ftr 2 / bard 15. The extra bard lvls add oomph to your spellcasting & bardsongs; rogue adds Evasion, 2d6+3 sneak attacks, and perhaps trap skills (depending on INT and how you spend your pts); ftr adds feats, +1 STR enh, and HPs.

Here's a sample build to give you some ideas:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.0
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 True Neutral Drow Female
(2 Fighter \ 3 Rogue \ 15 Bard)
Hit Points: 260
Spell Points: 424
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 17
Will: 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 22
Dexterity 16 20
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 12 12

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 8

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Bard)


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter II
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Attack I
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Attack II
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage I
Enhancement: Drow Weapon Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery IV

[Valindria]

I wasn't trying to be harsh. Sorry if it came out that way. There are merits to less than 14 level bards, but IMO 14 is the lowest level I would take a bard and still call it a "Bard". In fact I have a specced up 12/8 fighter/bard that I would love to make someday but probably won't get around to it anytime soon.

It just doesn't make sense to me to waste 3 feats to take tempest I to get 10% offhand and not have the dex for GTWF. You're you'd be at 105%/70% with Inspire Recklessness. Though really Inspire Recklessness at 12 won't last that long.

If you are doing it for fun knock yourself out. I was just stating what I didn't like about the idea.

Edit:
unbongwah Why quicken?

[Illiain]

I recently started a similar build, but mine is going to be Human 14 WC Bard/6 Ranger. I found the feats to get Tempest were a bit steep, and would really hinder any healing ability I wanted to keep.

I was also pondering /6fighter Kensai 1, but the AP I would need to spend would also lower my healing ability vs the benefit of Ram's Might.

I would also need to start with a higher base Dex. Now I can start with a 14 and if/when I get a +3 tome, swap out something for GTWF. Maybe stick with Min2 Khopesh and drop Imp Crit. It's lower damage than Lit2's but it would be primarily a support class, and my damage is secondary to buffs/heals.

[unbongwah]

unbongwah Why quicken?
Honestly? I don't remember. :o That's an old build I dusted off, popped in WC II, and posted. Didn't even double-check the feats.

So, uhh, rather than Quicken, pretend I picked something useful. ;)

[bartosy]

It can work as a novelty build and with the right gear you might actually do respectable damage but with 12 dex you dont even qualify for the feats needed for tempest let alone twf itwf gtwf not to mention the feats that you save that need to be invested in dodge,mobility and spring attack those are feats you need to qualify for tempest

If you really wanna pull this off get dex to 15 get a +2 tome so you at least can qualify for gtwf drop charisma.. charisma isnt such a big deal for a warchanter your spell dc are non existant.. with a deep splash like that your spell pen will be non existant also

The price for splashing tempest :

you might win 2 feats with twf and itwf but at the cost of 3 near useless feats..

i mean dodge ?

+1 ac for what.. as a bard your base ac is non existant making this a useless feat.

mobility ?

+4 ac while tumbling.. again a useless feat.

spring attack no hit pen for moving.. meh it got its uses but most combat you just stand still while hitting a mob at least thats what you learn verry early in the game while hitting kobolds with twf :). If you need to keep moving to hit a mob your tank isnt doing there job correctly or some trigger happy many shot ranger is at it again.

To Drow(n) or not to Drow(n)

The choice of drow isn't the best also. I mean everyone see them comming and going the zilion of drow rogues that drop like a fly the moment some mob even looks funny at them. Yesterday i had 5 different drow rogues in a wiz king exp farm and they all had something in common. They all were the first the drop dead the moment a mummy came running for them..

What i'm saying is that if you got the option to make a 32 ability point other race vs a drow.. i would take the 32 point build anyday. I read a good quote once and someone got it as his sig..


Real friends don't let other friends roll drow.

At first is made me chuckle, but the longer i roll with them the more it becomes evident that these words actually hold a lot of truth.

[Majestic8705]

Yeah, I'm f2p...so the only way I'm getting a 32 point build is if I roll a Drow. My main, a Drow 13 Assassin/6 Tempest/1 Fighter, does suffer from squishiness...having said that, if played properly, he is rather impressive if I do say so myself.

First of all, lemme just say I didn't find Valindria's response 'harsh' at all. I asked for a critique, and that's what I got. ~Shrugs~ Like I said, never played a Bard on DDO (or, really, at all ever until a couple nights ago when I played a bard splash in NWN2). Given that, I really was expecting that I'd frell it up - hence why I figured I'd post it before I go out and re-roll it a thousand times.

As far as the build itself goes...So basically one thing all agree on is to lower CHA and boost DEX. Fair enough. I figure 15 would be fine? I can either use the tome or worse case scenario being a Drow I can +2 from enhancements (or even +3 if I were to use one of the Ranger enhancements as well). The other point of agreement is that if one is going to splash into RNG, don't bother with the Tempest as its not worth the wasted feats.

Next issue: is it better to Bard it up to 15 and only play with those remaining five levels to splash with? Because it just seems that if that happens, those five levels would either be RNG 2 and FTR 3 or FTR 2 and RNG 3. In either case, I'd take at least two of RNG and FTR because the only reason for the RNG is the TWF feats (which comes at lvl 2), and the only FTR levels with *free* feats are 1, 2, and every even number thereafter. So it'd be a tossup between BRD, RNG, and FTR as to which class gets the last point...I'd probably go FTR just for the hps because there's no real benefit to taking any of the three (BRD would get extra sps, no bonus abilities or anything else it seems, RNG would get that 'auto stabilize' thing which is pretty useless...)

The other option, of course, would be to switch out the RNG for ROG (as suggested by unbongwah below) in which case one would obviously take 3 ROG for the extra sneak damage. I'd just have to 'bite the bullet' and pick up those TWF feats independent of class stuff.

So if one were to go to BRD 15, should the remaining five go FTR 3 and RNG 2 or ROG 3 and FTR 2?

Or is it better to only go to BRD 14 and maybe grabbing: (i) RNG 6 (for TWF, ITWF), or (ii) RNG 2 and FTR 4 (TWF from RNG, then use the bonus FTRs for ITWF and GTWF + extra health goodies), or (iii) just going FTR 6 and maybe grabbing Kensei (use the feats for TWF, ITWF, pick up weapon spec for piercing weapons [Drow get benefit to rapiers]. Weapon focus is already going to be taken because its a pre-req for Warchanter I then just pick up GTWF and OTWF from regular feats). Having said that...it seems one could also make the case for a BRD 14 and ROG 6. Extra dps goodness, especially if one grabs the Assassin Prestige. But that would be an excessively squishy build...all d6s...I shudder to think...

I suppose the point is this, if I only went to BRD 14, what exactly would I be loosing? From what I can see, the only thing I miss out on is the 'inspire heroics' ability. In exchange for that, I'd gain a lot of other stuff that benefits my toon as opposed to whoever happens to be the recipient of my 'inspire heroics' ability. Is 'inspire heroics' worth the missing out on all that other stuff? Or is that just one of those crucial abilities that I'll need at higher end to be considered a 'worthwhile bard'?

[unbongwah]

Bard 15 gives you the Inspire Heroics song. Bard 16 is when you first get lvl 6 spells. Bard 18 is for if and when 3rd-tier PrEs get added. Bard 20 provides the capstone & final bump in Inspire Courage; pure bard WC has max Inspire Courage, but runs short on feats.

Ranger 2 isn't worth it just for free TWF, IMHO. It may be worth it for other things; e.g., on my bardcher builds (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=295551), I take rgr 2 for free Bow STR & Rapid Shot - everything else is just a perk.

Like I said: I think rogue 3 / ftr 2 / bard 15 (or maybe rogue 2 / ftr 2 / bard 16) works out best for a melee-focused TWF WC bard, but there are lots of alternatives. One of the great things about bards is they tend to MC better than other caster classes.