Smite Construct - Fail for Repeater Mechanic Rogue

[JOTMON]

Smite Construct does not work with Ranged Weapons.
So if you are thinking about taking the Mechanic line or the enhancements for construct smites you better be able to effectively use melee weapons because you will not be able to smite with repeaters or any ranged weapons.

a fail for the mechanic repeater line... compared to assassin
wil continue the build and see how it goes

[Jonny_D]

Smite Construct does not work with Ranged Weapons.
So if you are thinking about taking the Mechanic line or the enhancements for construct smites you better be able to effectively use melee weapons because you will not be able to smite with repeaters or any ranged weapons.

a fail for the mechanic repeater line... compared to assassin
wil continue the build and see how it goes

agreed, cost me a respec :(

[MrCow]

Smite attacks have never been usable with ranged attacks (Smite Evil, Smite Tainted, Smite Construct, and last I checked even Smite Good from monsters) because by the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#smiteEvil) Smite Evil (and thus all derivatives) are melee only.

[Bunker]

Mechanic no never need to smite construct if they have a repeating crossbow of smiting. :D

[Jaid314]

Mechanic no never need to smite construct if they have a repeating crossbow of smiting. :D

smite construct is not the same thing as smiting enchantment. for example, smite construct works on vale portals, red/purple-named constructs (well, i *presume* it works on purple-named constructs at any rate... haven't tested on the WF titan tbh), epic constructs, etc. also, it only deals damage, not instant kills.

[SardaofChaos]

As far as I was aware, there are no abilities of that like which apply on ranged strikes except for those that were created specifically for ranged strikes. Why is this a surprise?

[Jonny_D]

Smite attacks have never been usable with ranged attacks (Smite Evil, Smite Tainted, Smite Construct, and last I checked even Smite Good from monsters) because by the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#smiteEvil) Smite Evil (and thus all derivatives) are melee only.

Thankyou for the rules clarification Dungeon Master... oh wait Turbine is the dungeon master who made the house rule about Smitng Constucts for a PrC that revolves around a ranged weapon


As far as I was aware, there are no abilities of that like which apply on ranged strikes except for those that were created specifically for ranged strikes. Why is this a surprise?Because the PrC is ranged.

[Bunker]

:rolleyes:
smite construct is not the same thing as smiting enchantment. for example, smite construct works on vale portals, red/purple-named constructs (well, i *presume* it works on purple-named constructs at any rate... haven't tested on the WF titan tbh), epic constructs, etc. also, it only deals damage, not instant kills.

I know. Just bringing light to the obvious situation. Smite enhancements dont' work with ranged.

[Jaid314]

:rolleyes:

I know. Just bringing light to the obvious situation. Smite enhancements dont' work with ranged.

indeed. and, as was pointed out earlier, this particular smite enhancement comes to a prestige enhancement that benefits greatly from being ranged. as the primary feature of a prestige line that is designed to be effective in ranged combat, it makes little sense to take the advantages granted by the prestige line and have them not apply to ranged combat.

it would be like if acrobat had an advantage that only worked when making ranged attacks, when the prestige line clearly encourages melee (with a quarterstaff). why would it only work when you're completely unable to use it in the most encouraged form of combat the prestige line provides? it just doesn't make an awful lot of sense.

[LeLoric]

Thankyou for the rules clarification Dungeon Master... oh wait Turbine is the dungeon master who made the house rule about Smitng Constucts for a PrC that revolves around a ranged weapon

Because the PrC is ranged.

Well when the prc was added to the game it provided no benefit for ranged. only recently did they add the repeater benefits. And basically they are telling you to put down the repeater and swing away cause even without the smite ability you are still more effective doing that then firing a slow bad buggy xbow.

[Jonny_D]

Well when the prc was added to the game it provided no benefit for ranged. only recently did they add the repeater benefits. And basically they are telling you to put down the repeater and swing away cause even without the smite ability you are still more effective doing that then firing a slow bad buggy xbow.

have you played a repeater build for more than 5 minutes? Lelo you make no sense. So they added the repeater components to the build because they want to encourage melee use... right :rolleyes:

[voodoogroves]

Because the PrC is ranged.

This is a problematic assumption.

The PRE provides proficiency with and some benefit to using repeaters. That does not make it "ranged". It also adds benefits to traps, etc. etc.

This is akin to saying "Clerics who are Radiant Servants must only heal with their burst". They didn't lose other healing options any more than mechanics lost other attack mechanisms. Or, say, "a FVS should only ever use their favored weapon" or "Ninjas can stay centered with shortswords so you should only use those it is a shortsword PRE".



Don't impose limits on yourself and how you play. Feel free to use and not use any feature of your class or PRE at any time. Sometimes having different options is more enjoyable than being a one-trick pony that just does one thing hyper-well.

[voodoogroves]

And all those folks running acrobats but TWFing Rapiers or Khopeshes are doing it wrong, right?


Again, don't limit yourself through your own thinking. D&D is historically filled with classes and PREs that both specialize and generalize at the same time.

[Jonny_D]

This is a problematic assumption.

The PRE provides proficiency with and some benefit to using repeaters. That does not make it "ranged". It also adds benefits to traps, etc. etc.

This is akin to saying "Clerics who are Radiant Servants must only heal with their burst". They didn't lose other healing options any more than mechanics lost other attack mechanisms. Or, say, "a FVS should only ever use their favored weapon" or "Ninjas can stay centered with shortswords so you should only use those it is a shortsword PRE".



Don't impose limits on yourself and how you play. Feel free to use and not use any feature of your class or PRE at any time. Sometimes having different options is more enjoyable than being a one-trick pony that just does one thing hyper-well.

agreed i wouldnt want to limit a character to just what their PrC is Extremely proficient at, I have an acrobat that rarely uses Qstaff. That being said a mechnic that doesnt use Repeaters should use a different PrC because they are not getting the most for their investment, and if invested in ranged (high dex) the AP's can certainly be spent better than on the melee wrack/smite construct abilities

[voodoogroves]

agreed i wouldnt want to limit a character to just what their PrC is Extremely proficient at, I have an acrobat that rarely uses Qstaff. That being said a mechnic that doesnt use Repeaters should use a different PrC because they are not getting the most for their investment, and if invested in ranged (high dex) the AP's can certainly be spent better than on the melee wrack/smite construct abilities

And an AA who never puts down their bow ...

If you want to play something that does a single thing constantly and each and every option on their character is meant to let them do that single thing, play a Half Orc THF Barb.

Smite construct doesn't need to work on ranged, no more than a Bard's fascinate needs to work on bosses.

[Jonny_D]

And an AA who never puts down their bow ...

If you want to play something that does a single thing constantly and each and every option on their character is meant to let them do that single thing, play a Half Orc THF Barb.

Smite construct doesn't need to work on ranged, no more than a Bard's fascinate needs to work on bosses.
of course it doesnt need to work on ranged but it sure would be nice, just like it would be nice for Q-staff to be finessable and a dual weapon rather than a 2 hander. 99% of mechanics will be xbow users if they arnt they are severly gimping their builds damage potential at end game, sure there are incidents where using something other than their repeater will be desired but not many, as a ranged character dependant they are dependant on Dex for to hit, as a mechanic they are dependant on Int for damage and as rogue they are dependant on Con because they are squishy not too many attribute points left of for strength, which means it will be relatively low. Now inorder to hit and use their low strength against say constructs or vorpaly-types they would need the weapon finesse feat which would be of limited use after taking all the ranged goodie feats on a feat starved class.

Do mechanics need Smite Construct to be usable with their r xbows no, is it foolish to take those enhancements on a ranged repeater build I think so. Anyone seriously playing a mechnic probably should not take those enhancements. Certainly there are some players who make oddball builds who could take advantage of the ability, but generally I think its safe to say most will still clear clear. Now say you are new to DDO and love the idea of a repeater rogue you might like the though of some extra damage against constructs since normally they are pretty resistant to a rogues bread and butter of back stab. One might then take the enhancements in hopes of doing this, or one might simply read this thread and decide hey I shouldnt waste my time with those enhancements because I dont intend to melee any constructs. Or someone from Turbine might read this thread and think, "ya know rogues ned some love and need to made a little more straight forward, lets make smite construct work with repeaters and give some synergy to that PrC since repeaters are a pretty niche weapon and playstyle" Why not make the PrC slight more appealing? That is all I am saying:)

[Jaid314]

wrack construct is an enhancement that all rogues can take, and while i still think it should be possible to use it any time you could sneak attack, that's not what is being discussed.

smite construct is an automatic part of mechanic II. it comes with the PrE whether you want it or not, and does not work with the mechanic's favored weapon.

this makes about as much sense as granting kensei an ability at kensei III... that only works when they are not using their favored weapon. or granting acrobats a special attack option... that only works when they are not using a quarterstaff. or granting tempests a special attack option... that only works when they use a two-handed weapon.

if it was a generalised rogue ability, fine. but it isn't. it's an ability that is specific and exclusive to the mechanic PrE, which in general favors crossbows. it doesn't need to be usable *only* with crossbows, but it should be possible for the PrE to use it's PrE special abilities using it's PrE favored weapon.

[Jonny_D]

wrack construct is an enhancement that all rogues can take, and while i still think it should be possible to use it any time you could sneak attack, that's not what is being discussed.

smite construct is an automatic part of mechanic II. it comes with the PrE whether you want it or not, and does not work with the mechanic's favored weapon.

this makes about as much sense as granting kensei an ability at kensei III... that only works when they are not using their favored weapon. or granting acrobats a special attack option... that only works when they are not using a quarterstaff. or granting tempests a special attack option... that only works when they use a two-handed weapon.

if it was a generalised rogue ability, fine. but it isn't. it's an ability that is specific and exclusive to the mechanic PrE, which in general favors crossbows. it doesn't need to be usable *only* with crossbows, but it should be possible for the PrE to use it's PrE special abilities using it's PrE favored weapon.
thank you, well stated

[JOTMON]

[QUOTE=voodoogroves;3508509]This is a problematic assumption.

The PRE provides proficiency with and some benefit to using repeaters. That does not make it "ranged". It also adds benefits to traps, etc. etc.

This is akin to saying "Clerics who are Radiant Servants must only heal with their burst". They didn't lose other healing options any more than mechanics lost other attack mechanisms. Or, say, "a FVS should only ever use their favored weapon" or "Ninjas can stay centered with shortswords so you should only use those it is a shortsword PRE".

QUOTE]

Mechanic Line Smite construct is more akin to giving Radiant Servent Clerics a 10% bonus to fire/cold damage spell attacks... pointless...

Point of the post is that as I am building this mechanic repeter build i have come to discover wrack construct as part of the mechanic line is useless for repeater builds(int/dex as main stat focus. and to let others know.

So far based on playing this toon Mechanic line needs some serious review the prepeater mechanic is quite weak compared to Assassin.

Wrack construct on crossbows for mechanics. or give theme something else usefull for repeaters.
Craft trap effect on missile arrows/Bolts.. we have all these trap parts after all...

[Jaid314]

[QUOTE=voodoogroves;3508509]This is a problematic assumption.

The PRE provides proficiency with and some benefit to using repeaters. That does not make it "ranged". It also adds benefits to traps, etc. etc.

This is akin to saying "Clerics who are Radiant Servants must only heal with their burst". They didn't lose other healing options any more than mechanics lost other attack mechanisms. Or, say, "a FVS should only ever use their favored weapon" or "Ninjas can stay centered with shortswords so you should only use those it is a shortsword PRE".

QUOTE]

Mechanic Line Smite construct is more akin to giving Radiant Servent Clerics a 10% bonus to fire/cold damage spell attacks... pointless...

Point of the post is that as I am building this mechanic repeter build i have come to discover wrack construct as part of the mechanic line is useless for repeater builds(int/dex as main stat focus. and to let others know.

So far based on playing this toon Mechanic line needs some serious review the prepeater mechanic is quite weak compared to Assassin.

Wrack construct on crossbows for mechanics. or give theme something else usefull for repeaters.
Craft trap effect on missile arrows/Bolts.. we have all these trap parts after all...

to be fair, assassin II vs mechanic II would, i think, be a much less obvious choice. although assassin III doesn't add much to epics, obviously, it's still a *very* strong choice.

[Popebob_4th]

And an AA who never puts down their bow ...

If you want to play something that does a single thing constantly and each and every option on their character is meant to let them do that single thing, play a Half Orc THF Barb.

Smite construct doesn't need to work on ranged, no more than a Bard's fascinate needs to work on bosses.


THIS is where my problem starts. He says smite construct doesn't need to work on ranged. My only question is why not? Would you really be pushing repeater crossbows if you said both ranged and melee could use it. And for the people that say "you can't use a smite ranged" please shut up because that is not the problem. The problem is DDO didn't put that much thought into it. My guess is they didn't want the mechanic to have to much an edge agaisn't living constructs because some people spend points on warforged. How nice would it be if you got a warforged and a mechanic came up and filled him full of holes with his smite ability.

But... that's just a guess. So instead of fixing the problem they just dropped it and left the mechanic where he is now.

[Artos_Fabril]

My guess is they didn't want the mechanic to have to much an edge agaisn't living constructs because some people spend points on warforged. How nice would it be if you got a warforged and a mechanic came up and filled him full of holes with his smite ability.

But... that's just a guess. So instead of fixing the problem they just dropped it and left the mechanic where he is now.
That guess is based on the wildly incorrect assumption that PvP affects balance decisions. It is, as stated previously, most likely because no other smite or smite-like ability can be used with ranged attacks, and they just changed the entry in a dropdown box from "if target is |Evil| add damage calc 'smite' based on |Charisma|" to "if target is |Construct| add damage calc 'smite' based on |Intelligence|" (note, I don't have a mech II rogue, and couldn't access it from the "view unavailable enhancements" checkbox, nor is it on the wiki, so I'm not 100% sure the mechanic smite calc is based on Int, rather than, say, Dex)

It's even more likely they just copy-pasted the code from the pally ability "Smite Evil" and changed the target type with or without changing the damage calc stat.

[Jaid314]

That guess is based on the wildly incorrect assumption that PvP affects balance decisions. It is, as stated previously, most likely because no other smite or smite-like ability can be used with ranged attacks, and they just changed the entry in a dropdown box from "if target is |Evil| add damage calc 'smite' based on |Charisma|" to "if target is |Construct| add damage calc 'smite' based on |Intelligence|" (note, I don't have a mech II rogue, and couldn't access it from the "view unavailable enhancements" checkbox, nor is it on the wiki, so I'm not 100% sure the mechanic smite calc is based on Int, rather than, say, Dex)

It's even more likely they just copy-pasted the code from the pally ability "Smite Evil" and changed the target type with or without changing the damage calc stat.

true, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have done a better job or that we're in the wrong for thinking they should have done a better job :P

[Artos_Fabril]

true, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have done a better job or that we're in the wrong for thinking they should have done a better job :P
Of course not. But as I suggested in another thread, it would probably be better for repeater rogues, more thematically appropriate, and easier to code if each tier of mechanic just added 1d6 bane damage vs constructs to whatever weapon the mechanic was holding. KotC adds damage vs. evil outsiders, and FB adds vicious, so the base code probably already exists even.

[Popebob_4th]

true, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have done a better job or that we're in the wrong for thinking they should have done a better job :P

Amen! I'm so happy to see some people seeing the problem here. So tired of the people that would rather just shot down the topic for no reason.

[~WickedWendigo]

Amen! I'm so happy to see some people seeing the problem here. So tired of the people that would rather just shot down the topic for no reason.

These people are what you call trolls. They sit there with nothing better to do than instigate arguments. These same people pop into threads like Repeater Rogues Unite and randomly spam about how this particular persons build sucks and they should re-roll etc. Do not get angry with them, just ignore them, lack of attention typically drives them away.

[Coldin]

Well, noone should really be taking Mechanic for the smite or repair abilities. The real bonuses are all in the repeater usage, skill increases, and getting intelligence to crossbow damage.

That being said, smite construct...and for that matter, Wrack Construct, should work with ranged weapons. It breaks the synergy of the class abilities by it not. But it's unlikely we'll see any movement on existing abilities working with bows and crossbows for some time. At least not until the devs decide to focus on reworking the whole system.

[assamite]

These people are what you call trolls. They sit there with nothing better to do than instigate arguments. These same people pop into threads like Repeater Rogues Unite and randomly spam about how this particular persons build sucks and they should re-roll etc. Do not get angry with them, just ignore them, lack of attention typically drives them away.

.....You just attentionized it :D

[idiorico]

... it would be cool to see if the smite construct works with the repeater xbow but as a melee (hitting the construct with the repeater xbow, it wouldn't be weird to call it smite if the bolt does damage)

[Aaxeyu]

So it shouldn't work with repeaters because mechanics can use other weapons too?

That's an incredibly weak argument.

[Jonny_D]

So it shouldn't work with repeaters because mechanics can use other weapons too?

That's an incredibly weak argument.

lol yup they can use other weapons, however they will be getting the most DPS with a repeater. so why ould the want t switch to a lower DPS weapon, beausif its not a smite able contruct, dps will be whats needed? Most Mech's will have a low str since its dex and int that give their to hit and damage with repeaters, some might not even have weapon finesse if all they use is repeaters and they want to save a feat, so they would have low to hit and damage... there is no synergy and noone will use it.

[oskar581]

Okay my 2 cents.
First go get a crossbow and take apart your bike/car with it.
Second the mechanic PrE isn't ranged based per say they are Mechanical based the Repeating X-bows are a crossbow with gears and pulleys that ratchet the string back in to place faster then reloading by hand. that is why they get them. Now why they get to add there Int to damage with all x-bows that because yes Rogues are DPS and Int is more important to mechanic then str so they gave them extra damage with the x-bow against everyone one, and vs constructs they are given the ability to offset the fact that they can't Sneak Attack them by doing more damage when in melee and can see where to jam a sword to stop a cog from spinning or pop out a fly wheel.

I would love to see a Unique Mace/Bludgeoning weapon that looks like a Wrench (socket/monkey/plumbers) that is Adamantine finesse Smiting Greater Construct Bane or better yet a weapon set of a one-handed and light "wrenches" where the one-handed one is Adamantine finesse Smiting and the light wrench is adamantine Greater Construct Bane and if you have both it lets you add Int to damage vs constructs or add your int mod to Smiting's 23 fort to save ie character with 20 int would Smite with his weapon vs 28. yeah it's kinda OP but it's just one monster type (2 if you count living constructs as a different type, I don't)

[sephiroth1084]

Smite attacks have never been usable with ranged attacks (Smite Evil, Smite Tainted, Smite Construct, and last I checked even Smite Good from monsters) because by the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#smiteEvil) Smite Evil (and thus all derivatives) are melee only.

There is precedent in the PnP rules for ranged smite attacks. When the devs updated the PrE to benefit ranged weapons they should have provided this utility as well.

[oskar581]

There is precedent in the PnP rules for ranged smite attacks. When the devs updated the PrE to benefit ranged weapons they should have provided this utility as well.

not to flame you. but Really Precedent like this is a court?
sorry just my 2 cents

[sephiroth1084]

not to flame you. but Really Precedent like this is a court?
sorry just my 2 cents
Uh...not really sure what you're saying here.

Are you calling out my use of the word 'precedent' because this isn't a legal matter?

[oskar581]

yes yes I was there is no reason to give mechanics a ranged smite even if it's only vs one type lt's like giving rangers a ranged smite vs one of there favored enemies (which isn't a bad Idea for twf rangers)

[sephiroth1084]

yes yes I was there is no reason to give mechanics a ranged smite even if it's only vs one type lt's like giving rangers a ranged smite vs one of there favored enemies (which isn't a bad Idea for twf rangers)
There is precedent to use the word 'precedent' outside of legal situations.

There is a reason to give Mechanics a ranged smite attack: the class has been retolled (pun intended :)) to emphasized ranged attacks. Their Smite Construct should be changed to either work on both melee and ranged attacks normally, or should become two separate enhancement lines, one for melee, one for ranged.

And I have no idea how rangers worked into this conversation. They don't have a smite attack to begin with and their class-based damage bonus vs. their Favored Enemies applies equally to both their melee and ranged attacks.

There are some classes and such that give paladins a ranged Smite Evil, and a few prestige classes that gain the same ability.

[oskar581]

I know of a PnP optional rule out of heroes of the wild that granted elf paladins a ranged smite but they had to give up something else, and so far there just isn't that much optional stuff in ddo favored souls and drow being the 2 main ones I can think of not counting the PrEs. Like I stated before go take your car/bike apart with a crossbow at range and see how it works in real life, cause rogues don't have magic to power their abilities it has to be with in the lines of an extraordinary ability.

[Artos_Fabril]

I know of a PnP optional rule out of heroes of the wild that granted elf paladins a ranged smite but they had to give up something else, and so far there just isn't that much optional stuff in ddo favored souls and drow being the 2 main ones I can think of not counting the PrEs. Like I stated before go take your car/bike apart with a crossbow at range and see how it works in real life, cause rogues don't have magic to power their abilities it has to be with in the lines of an extraordinary ability.
Less "extraordinary ability" and more "cinematic ability". Often in movies someone throws/shoots something into a vehicle, robot, or some other sort of gearing causing it to seize up. While that's generally not realistic, is a sufficiently common trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpannerInTheWorks) to be incorporated into a fantasy MMO.

P.S. I still think giving construct bane instead would be more generally useful and easier to code.

[sephiroth1084]

P.S. I still think giving construct bane instead would be more generally useful and easier to code.
Much.

[oskar581]

Less "extraordinary ability" and more "cinematic ability". Often in movies someone throws/shoots something into a vehicle, robot, or some other sort of gearing causing it to seize up. While that's generally not realistic, is a sufficiently common trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpannerInTheWorks) to be incorporated into a fantasy MMO.

P.S. I still think giving construct bane instead would be more generally useful and easier to code.

Okay so so yeah that idea I can get behind, a spanner in the works deal I still think

I would love to see a Unique Mace/Bludgeoning weapon that looks like a Wrench (socket/monkey/plumbers) that is Adamantine finesse Smiting Greater Construct Bane or better yet a weapon set of a one-handed and light "wrenches" where the one-handed one is Adamantine finesse Smiting and the light wrench is adamantine Greater Construct Bane and if you have both it lets you add Int to damage vs constructs or add your int mod to Smiting's 23 fort to save ie character with 20 int would Smite with his weapon vs 28. yeah it's kinda OP but it's just one monster type (2 if you count living constructs as a different type, I don't)

I know it's tacky to quote ones self.