Bards that can't fascinate on Epics: a failbard story w/ questions

[AltheaSteelrain]

Disclaimer: no screenshots, while writing this I realized I reset'd my controls and hadn't customize the screenshot hotkey yet so take my word for what I'm about to share.

I recently read an LFM up on our server saying, "Into the Deep End fight: need kiter: boss @ 50%". I looked into their group and saw two clerics, 1 bard, 1 fighter and 1 rogue.

I figured "its an easy token yay!" so I clicked "join" button.

I was declined.

Of course I wasn't about to give up on the free shards and tokens so sent a tell to the leader of the group and the following conversation occured.

Me: I can kite and much more.
Leader: We need a wizard.
Me: I can fascinate them well. I always do.
Leader: We tried that already.
Me: Then your bard isn't up to it. I never fail.

So I was happily accepted and went inside the quest, only to find the horror that the party UI had updated and the six full hp/sp bars I saw earleir were replaced by lots of skulls and OOM.

Leader told me to use DDoor and get everyone out. Everyone was out, everyoen was shrined and buffed so we tried again.

So here it goes. I have 16 Charisma (+3 perform). I put on my Bard's cloak (6 cha +15 perform) put on GH (+4 perform) popped a recitation wand (+2 perform) and used focusing chant (+1 perform). My perform skill totals to 48.

And yes, I'm not using a con/opp goggles. I am wearing a DP clickie goggles and forgotten to put them back while fascinating the reavers. That's 5 more perform missing.

I said to them, "ok guys go focus on the boss and let me dance the reavers"

So they all went to the boss and I got all the reavers and had them put to sleep.

15 sleeping reavers later (and I know I should've knew back then my screenshot button is not working ATM) everyone died but me.

so I put a ddoor on and rez the clerics and let them rez the rest but ding ding ding...

They died again. The hezrou is dominating.

So I put another Ddoor and helped the cleric to stabilize only to find myself dead to a rampaging Hezrou. This is where the leader kept telling in the party chat the following:

Leader: The reavers are awake.
Me: Those are new.
Leader: Fascinate is almost done.
Me: I can put them asleep for five minutes. (I'm speaking like a noob to keep morale up)
Leader: well time is almost up.
Me: I keep refreshing them (well do they? I haven't checked this one).

So yeah i might have talked like a noob pretending uber, but needless to say, the group failed and I promptly ddoored when the cleric gave up. as parting words I sent the following message.

Me: Any decent bard can fascinate epics.
You left the party.

And yes I left the room filled with sleeping reavers and a very happy Hezrou.

---------------------------------------------------

Now I know I talked like a noob but because of this experience, I am curious on how fascinate really works.

So here are some questions.

1. does fascinate refresh when I sang an already fascinated enemy?


2. I know they get a will save every 2 or 3 seconds, but how long does fascinate last? I am using my Inspire Courage Song duration as reference when I fascinate the reavers in Into the Deep End fight.


3. Is there a trend nowadays that perform is now a dump stat for bard builds?


Ty and pardon my noobishness.

Discuss.

[NinjaCereal]

I can't really answer your main questions, but I would like to point out that skills cap at 40. Anything higher than that is useless.

[AltheaSteelrain]

I can't really answer your main questions, but I would like to point out that skills cap at 40. Anything higher than that is useless.

Uhm... no? Only jump caps at 40.

[NinjaCereal]

Uhm... no? Only jump caps at 40.

Hmm, seems I've heard wrong then. My mistake.

[muffinlad]

I can't really answer your main questions, but I would like to point out that skills cap at 40. Anything higher than that is useless.

Only jump caps at 40.

My perform is in the 90's after buffs. My Haggle is in the 90's after buffs. Both work as displayed.

(Btw, if I am not signing or selling, I am healing or running...not much of a fighter...but thats just my build.)

muffinlad

Edit: You already responded, so no worries.

[Dexxaan]

I can't really answer your main questions, but I would like to point out that skills cap at 40. Anything higher than that is useless.

Intimidate 40 = Cap?




.... yeah at Level 12 it was!



I hate that stage in DDO when you look for Forums to entertain you...... but it never fails.



:cool:

[TigrisMorte]

I can't really answer your main questions, but I would like to point out that skills cap at 40. Anything higher than that is useless.

disable device and pick lock I am fairly sure do not.

[NinjaCereal]

disable device and pick lock I am fairly sure do not.

Hehe
It seems everyone is pointing this out now instead of answering the original question.
(I'm not mad, I just find that humorous)

[Gorbadoc]

2. I know they get a will save every 2 or 3 seconds, but how long does fascinate last? I am using my Inspire Courage Song duration as reference when I fascinate the reavers in Into the Deep End fight.


3. Is there a trend nowadays that perform is now a dump stat for bard builds?


Ty and pardon my noobishness.

Discuss.

2 is news to me. If it were true, I would have expected to see a monster break free prematurely on a semi-frequent basis. I mean, come on, I Fascinate a group of ten monsters, then it takes 30 seconds to kill the lot. I do this at least five times per shrine-- I HOPE I would have noticed if monsters were breaking free.

Regarding 3, there's a trend nowadays that there still exists a stupid subset of people. Its membership might change slightly over time, but there always exists "that guy". Actually, given what I know of statistics, I would be surprised if I *didn't* encounter the occasional person who's way below average intelligence. No one with any sense dumps Perform. Even if you have only six bard levels, it's one skill to give you an uber CC ability.

[EKKM]

I dont know the answer to the OP as I dont have any high level bards but recitation doesn't add to skills.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Recitation

Prayer adds +1 to skills

[AltheaSteelrain]

I dont know the answer to the OP as I dont have any high level bards but recitation doesn't add to skills.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Recitation

Prayer adds +1 to skills

Haha~ so cool then to know my noob "tradition" of buffing recitation before spamming fascinates is... plain wrong! XD

Too bad those poor Recitation wands that got consumed were in vain :)

thanks :D

[AltheaSteelrain]

2 is news to me. If it were true, I would have expected to see a monster break free prematurely on a semi-frequent basis. I mean, come on, I Fascinate a group of ten monsters, then it takes 30 seconds to kill the lot. I do this at least five times per shrine-- I HOPE I would have noticed if monsters were breaking free.

I don't know if this i also true, but I guess it explains apart from the "my guards broke the fascinate" why sometimes sleeping mobs suddenly become awake.

Regarding 3, there's a trend nowadays that there still exists a stupid subset of people. Its membership might change slightly over time, but there always exists "that guy". Actually, given what I know of statistics, I would be surprised if I *didn't* encounter the occasional person who's way below average intelligence. No one with any sense dumps Perform. Even if you have only six bard levels, it's one skill to give you an uber CC ability.

While I admit I'm still in the dark on how fascinate really works, the basic function of a free CC skill should never be dump stat'd for anything else. Fascinate practically reads = "your wipe days are over".

I don't know why lately I've experienced bard builds not being able to fascinate on epics.




Strange skill, fascinate is.

Its either I haven't got plenty of experience to make the most out of it, or I really don't know how it works.

[Crazyfruit]

1. does fascinate refresh when I sang an already fascinated enemy?

I want to say yes, but I might be thinking of enthrall instead. Just select the monster and you can see the time countdown on the buff.


2. I know they get a will save every 2 or 3 seconds, but how long does fascinate last? I am using my Inspire Courage Song duration as reference when I fascinate the reavers in Into the Deep End fight.

No will save every few seconds - it lasts as long as it lasts until interrupted, otherwise the Bard diletante would be totally useless. Every bard can be different - uses levels & enhancements for length. It starts at 30 seconds (level 1 splash) unlike the IC's 4 minutes.


3. Is there a trend nowadays that perform is now a dump stat for bard builds?

Perform no - it's needed to qualify for songs. But I have seen very few that actually knew how to fascinate lately (or wore an item for it).

[AltheaSteelrain]

I want to say yes, but I might be thinking of enthrall instead. Just select the monster and you can see the time countdown on the buff.



No will save every few seconds - it lasts as long as it lasts until interrupted, otherwise the Bard diletante would be totally useless. Every bard can be different - uses levels & enhancements for length. It starts at 30 seconds (level 1 splash) unlike the IC's 4 minutes.



Perform no - it's needed to qualify for songs. But I have seen very few that actually knew how to fascinate lately (or wore an item for it).

thanks.

Wow I don't know my own class after 7 months playing it :)

[TheDearLeader]

The Compendium Entry (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Bard_Songs) for song duration is a bit old now, but it should still give you a base idea of what you should be seeing for various song durations.

As stated, Perform is necessary if a Bard wants to utilize all their songs. If you analyze Bardic Music (http://ddowiki.com/page/Bardic_music), you'll notice all but the songs you get at first level require that you have the maximum possible base Perform skill that you can get at each level. Mass Suggestion isn't often called for, but Inspire Heroics requires at least 18/23 Ranks in Perform to utilize.

As a secondary suggestion for testing your saves/durations/behaviors of your Bardic music, go into a quiet, unused PvP arena (Maybe the one in House J? Never see anyone in the House J or D PvP arenas), hop down with a friend, and fascinate them to see how things go.

Also, keep in mind that you can select any player or monster by Right-Clicking on them, and then hitting the "Z" key on your keyboard to inspect them. This will tell you all buffs/debuffs they currently possess, as well as the duration remaining.

[AltheaSteelrain]

Also, keep in mind that you can select any player or monster by Right-Clicking on them, and then hitting the "Z" key on your keyboard to inspect them. This will tell you all buffs/debuffs they currently possess, as well as the duration remaining.

I would love to do that but the current interface for examining interactable objects is kinda.. "cumbersome".

Though thanks for the heads up!~

Me go pvp nao and grief people once more w/ my songs :))

[bartosy]

1. does fascinate refresh when I sang an already fascinated enemy?


2. I know they get a will save every 2 or 3 seconds, but how long does fascinate last? I am using my Inspire Courage Song duration as reference when I fascinate the reavers in Into the Deep End fight.


3. Is there a trend nowadays that perform is now a dump stat for bard builds?


Ty and pardon my noobishness.

Discuss.

1. Yes it refreshes after you play a fascinate song again this way you can stunlock mobs and put them out of the fight.

2.They don't get a will save every 3 seconds i think its only a will save every 3 seconds in pvp because people complained and cried being stunlocked for 15 minutes in a barbrawls in pve this rule doesn't apply for fascinate and enthrall.

If you click on the monster and click the magnifying glass you see how long fascinate last on them before it runs out if you know one you know em all.

3. Bards got skill points enough you need a certain amount of perform to qualify for songs, but it's always good to have it maxed especially on a warchanter or splashed bard because in some epics mobs do save on a bad roll even if your perform is in the 40s after 60s the whole point gets kinda moot to raise it even further tho. I mean they save on a 20 wether you have 60 perform or 200.

song of freedom = Activate this bard ability to create an effect equivalent to the break enchantment spell on one of your allies. Requires 15 trained ranks (not total mod) of the Perform skill.

song of greatness = Perform: 12 ranks

song of heroics = Perform: 18 ranks

and this is trained ranks not total so the guy saying you don't need perform to qualify for this is wrong imo.. I had friends who didnt pump perform because some others said it was **** to them, needless to say she had to lr her character to make it more usefull.

Some skills on a bard are a no brainer like umd concentration and Perform.

[Lord_WC]

1. Fascinate refreshes, just like everything else if recast. Had several second passes in EV6 where mobs were still fascinated and when recast they stayed that way.

2. No additional will save for fascinate. If they would get a new save every 2-3 secs it would mean that an average fascinate lasts 40-60 seconds. Mobs roll nat20s as well. And this is why you can't 'never fail' on fascinate.

3. Fascinate is insanely useful and honestly most of the skills are kind of bad. This really is a no-brainer, not much else you could do with all those skill points.

Someone mentioned the guards breaking fascinate. I think it is the same problem what happens with paralyze and hold: mobs still complete their attack sequence regardless they are disabled in the middle of it. So fascinate triggers, the mob is flagged as fascinated but still completes its attack sequence. If a guard triggers on its last hits, it will break fascinate.

[painindaguild]

So here are some questions.

1. does fascinate refresh when I sang an already fascinated enemy?

Yes. an already fascinated enemy can be fascinated again. however, this requires another roll, that may be saved. it does not influence the timer of the old fascinate.


2. I know they get a will save every 2 or 3 seconds, but how long does fascinate last? I am using my Inspire Courage Song duration as reference when I fascinate the reavers in Into the Deep End fight.

never mind. just heard lingering song now does affect fascinate. no saves allowed while the ability is active.


3. Is there a trend nowadays that perform is now a dump stat for bard builds?

No, but remember fascinate is a roll. with 60% chance to fascinate and the first time u do not fascinate them, u get the feeling it might not work and scream out: sorry cant fascinate those.
the problem is that people cannot see it's a roll, thus stop trying after the first failed attempt, thinking its just a dc check.
problem isnt people dumpstatting perform. problem is people like u. they do not know how fascinate works, and thus assume after a failed try that it will fail each time.
sometimes being stubborn is actually advantageous.



Ty and pardon my noobishness.

no worries, had a good laugh at some answers.

[Wren666]

TL/DR
.....sso, what you're saying is, that 10/10 Barbarian/Sorcerers make excellent tanks?

I agree. Discuss.

[taurean430]

From what I understand, fascinate does work well and can be re- applied as needed in tough situations.

I didn't understand this until it was explained to me by another poster, so I'll share: If you hover your mouse over the fascinate hotbar location it will give you the save number. This will change every time you do this as the random d20 is added to the base. Some bards will hover over the hotbar location several times in order to set off the ability at the highest possible number.

Personally, I don't use fascinate a whole lot outside of epics. I haven't yet mastered the ability to hotbar hover and run for my life from delayed blast fireballs... so I get what I get. I've only seen one mob save against it in epics though. It only meant two uses instead of one on a base in EVON6.

[floating]

Ok, yes! As others have said fascinate can be reapplied no problem there. It is of high utility, but keep in mind fascinate WILL NOT solve immediate dungeon alert issues (one of the finer points in epic). Certainly can save your backside no doubt.

Fascinate - As far as the perform skill. Fascinate is a will save; you honestly probably do not need to pop recitation wands. The save made by mobs is not always of the same difficulty. The DC of your fascinate is perform skill + 1d20 roll. So if you have 48 perform the DC is 49 - 68. All things save on a 20 against fascinate, but be realistic ... not many mobs have a 29 or higher will save. So dump skill, no, but you will NEVER need a perform skill in the 90s as some previous posters said their bards have. Although bards do get crazy skill points. One poster said that most of the skills are useless (I think i read that). Lets be clear there are two useless skills as of now ... Heal and Repair (though i think the devs recently tried to use the latter in the new Assault on Stormreach pack). Given the utility of skills you may find a way to work in an appropriate amount of perform and reallocate the remaining skill points.

Enthrall - If you want something a little heavier than fascinate there is always virtuoso enthrall. Enthrall gives a minor penalty to will save making it easier to get other spells off on them, but not charm songs (you must fascinate to charm a mob with a song which is obviously absurd .. and come to think of it ill be making a post proposing that this be changed). Enthrall has the benefit of making mobs much harder to wake up; you have to give them a few good wacks before they notice you. Virtuosos may also expend some extra AP to be able to sing to undead and constructs.

Some things about fascinating - The fascinate and enthrall songs have to be played so that the mobs can hear them. In my experience the entire song does not need to be heard by the mob just a significant portion of it. The end of the song may be necessary, and as far as I can tell you have to finish the song near your target (overshooting elementals in EVON6 can be a problem if the bard doesnt know how to fascinate). Fascinated teleporting mobs will follow you through a dungeon (it seems that the teleporting of devils is separate from their main attack programming ... green devils tend to teleport randomly because they randomly aggro). It can be quite amusing in Sins of Attrition. Also would suggest about fascinate that fascinated mobs stay aggroed, and as I said at the beginning of this post.. fascinate will not solve immediate dungeon alert issues (other than making stuff stop kicking your behind). Further, aggroed mobs in some instances which have been fascinated upon waking up will follow you through the quest which can be an epically unpleasant experience. You have to get a feel for where and what group of mobs fascinate will be effective long term crowd control. If DA is red, it is unlikely that the boosted saves of mobs will be enough to keep them from being fascinated unless the bard has really really dumped perform. You can only fascinate yellow named mobs. You CAN NOT fascinate those things that are orange named, undead, construct, red named, have Bastion of Power Ward (i forget the exact name of the buff they have there), scorpions (and other various mindless vermin).


Im sure i could think of more stuff.

[floating]

Edit to above - As far as hovering over the bar. 1) the dc is always changing it may have changed during your hovering. 2) If you need to hover you need to redo something about your bard. (15 perform item + 4 cha modifier * probably at least* + 23 ranks of perform = 42 perform DC 43 - 62... doesnt take much work to get most mobs to save on only 20s) 3) You dont have time when your coming up on epic mobs that know you're there to check your roll probably id say most of the time.

[AltheaSteelrain]

.....sso, what you're saying is, that 10/10 Barbarian/Sorcerers make excellent tanks?

I agree. Discuss.

excuse me, i didn't get what you were trying to say? :)

@replies

oooh thanks so bunch for the information :) The more I'm realizing how much I didn't knew about my bard the more I am more fascinated in playing bards even more :)

Awesome :D

[Uska]

I can't really answer your main questions, but I would like to point out that skills cap at 40. Anything higher than that is useless.

incorrect jump does basicly but not facinate

[SlogUK]

Oh and if you want to replace that recitation with something concrete, get yourself a gwlans blade - available from any good pawn shop, peanuts on the AH, or Gwylans Stand - it adds 2 to your fascinate DC if you hold it. Woo. etc.

[AltheaSteelrain]

Oh and if you want to replace that recitation with something concrete, get yourself a gwlans blade - available from any good pawn shop, peanuts on the AH, or Gwylans Stand - it adds 2 to your fascinate DC if you hold it. Woo. etc.

Yeah, I bought it as soon as I read someone correcting me that recitation does not make my fascinate do better (now I am regretting popping all those recitation wands throughout the months playing the game). :)

Thanks for the heads up! ^__^