14 Paladin/6 Monk

[elg582]

These were some builds that I was putting together for a new player in another thread, but he decided to go a different way.

Anyway, I have never played a paladin above level 12 or so, have decided to try again, and am considering the following builds. All of them have the ninja PrE, will take the KotC paladin line, and use racial weapons to help the DPS a little.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.0
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Female
(14 Paladin \ 6 Monk)
Hit Points: 272
Spell Points: 145
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 15
Will: 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 15 20
Dexterity 16 17
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 12 13
Wisdom 10 10
Charisma 14 14

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 7 12
Bluff 2 2
Concentration 5 24
Diplomacy 2 2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 2
Heal 0 0
Hide 3 3
Intimidate 4 24
Jump 5 8
Listen 0 2
Move Silently 3 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 1
Search 1 3
Spot 0 2
Swim 2 5
Tumble 4 4
Use Magic Device 4 13

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 5 (Monk)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 8 (Paladin)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)




This is perhaps the most serious contender; extra toughness to make up for 12 CON, all the nice feats, and should hit a pretty nice intimidate, which the incorporeal will help it to survive. It could probably even hit a decent AC for h/e stuff.



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.0
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Female
(14 Paladin \ 6 Monk)
Hit Points: 272
Spell Points: 191
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 17
Will: 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 12 13
Dexterity 16 21
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 12 13
Wisdom 14 14
Charisma 14 14

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 5
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 3 5
Bluff 2 2
Concentration 5 24
Diplomacy 2 2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 2
Heal 2 2
Hide 3 5
Intimidate 3 25
Jump 5 7
Listen 2 4
Move Silently 3 5
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 1
Search 1 3
Spot 2 4
Swim 1 1
Tumble 4 6
Use Magic Device 4 13

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Weapon Finesse


Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 5 (Monk)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge


Level 8 (Paladin)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)




A finesse version; it trades 4 damage per hit for serious AC potential.



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.0
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Elf Male
(14 Paladin \ 6 Monk)
Hit Points: 250
Spell Points: 191
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 15
Will: 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 15 20
Dexterity 16 17
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 8 10
Wisdom 14 14
Charisma 14 14

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 5 5
Bluff 2 2
Concentration 5 21
Diplomacy 2 2
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 2
Heal 2 2
Hide 3 3
Intimidate 4 25
Jump 4 7
Listen 2 4
Move Silently 3 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 0
Search -1 2
Spot 2 4
Swim 2 5
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Whirling Steel Strike


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 7 (Monk)


Level 8 (Monk)


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)




Then an elf, because the original request was a longsword paladin monk; a little more DPS then the drow (1 damage per hit, slashing is useful against more enemies, etc), but AC is a little harder to come by and skills are a little tighter.

Leaning heavily towards the first build, but wanted some feedback before I build it up. Thoughts?

[t0r012]

might want to consider 7 monk for access to wholeness of body.
other thing to consider is with stats so tight , dump int and forget CE. CE is good for one thing, that is showing the highest numbers possible for an AC build , but you won't/shouldn't use it much less waste a feat on it.

I'd go build 1 but swap to 13/7 dump the int and CE. dunno what feat to replace it with but SF:intim would fit with your setup. You do lose the option of going holysword with 13/7 though. maybe even something like Two weapon defense for a +1 AC(hey its better than nothing) or even better another toughness.

[eonfreon]

Yes, go with the Str build. Giving up 4 dmg for 4 AC is not worth it in my opinion. Plus, there are more ways to increase Str than Dex, so potentially you can start losing to-hit ability as well, compared to a Str build. Of course you'll have access to those Str augmenting items as well, so you can never fall below -4 to hit, but it can hurt and may make a difference in Epics particularly. More misses = even less damage. Just drinking a Rage pot will put the Str build up by +1 right off the bat.

Plus that costs an extra Feat. Believe me you'll appreciate Extend, especially if you use Madstone Boots.

The rest looks pretty good to me. I would build completely different, but that's not important, since you are building for what you want to do and how.

Looks good.

[eonfreon]

might want to consider 7 monk for access to wholeness of body.
other thing to consider is with stats so tight , dump int and forget CE. CE is good for one thing, that is showing the highest numbers possible for an AC build , but you won't/shouldn't use it much less waste a feat on it.

I'd go build 1 but swap to 13/7 dump the int and CE. dunno what feat to replace it with but SF:intim would fit with your setup. You do lose the option of going holysword with 13/7 though. maybe even something like Two weapon defense for a +1 AC(hey its better than nothing) or even better another toughness.

13 Paladin loses access to Zeal.
That would invalidate one of the major points of the build, if I'm reading elg's intentions correctly.

[elg582]

Yea, has to be 14/6; zeal + holy sword + ninja, and wholeness of body is seriously overrated. I don't use it much on my monks that have it.

The Int is both for the extra skill point for UMD and for CE, which is actually only 1 AC more than TWD, but the point of this build is to have serious damage mitigation and high intim for tanking. The finesse build winds up with something like 6 AC more than the str build, and could potentially get high enough to be useful late game.

On the other hand, it probably won't be the main tank in elite/epic content, so it had better have some DPS to go along with it, so the STR build it is. With 2 toughness feats and ninja, it should be survivable enough, and if I manage to farm all the AC gear, I can always LR to reset stats and swap the feat.

Although that begs a question: Should I dump CE/TWD entirely and just grab a 3rd toughness, or even SF:intim?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Go to 15 paladin and 16 Charisma to get DMIII, this is a huge DPS build for a TWF build.

Dumb wisdom to 8.

For that matter, drow monk/paladin doesn't really work as the premise of the paladin/monk builds effectiveness is getting enough wisdom and dexterity to have a meaningful AC.

Perhaps look at the Solar Phoenix build? This build gets much more of Light Side healing Ki and longswords than what your idea gets out of shortswords, imo. Maybe the objectives are different though.

[DrNuegebauer]

Why not just use fists as the weapon?

DPS would be better than the racial weapons.

[elg582]

Go to 15 paladin and 16 Charisma to get DMIII, this is a huge DPS build for a TWF build.

Dumb wisdom to 8.

For that matter, drow monk/paladin doesn't really work as the premise of the paladin/monk builds effectiveness is getting enough wisdom and dexterity to have a meaningful AC.

Perhaps look at the Solar Phoenix build? This build gets much more of Light Side healing Ki and longswords than what your idea gets out of shortswords, imo. Maybe the objectives are different though.

AC is still attainable, it's just never going to get into the 90s, but you're still missing the point; ninja fade is 25% incorporeal, which works against everything in the game. That's like having an OK AC by itself. Add zeal, wind stance, and ki moves, and you have 15% double strike with racial weapons and a non-stop barrage of extra damage from ki strikes and smites.

No, it's not khopesh kensei dps, but it should be able to dps while tanking, and that's the point :)

[elg582]

Why not just use fists as the weapon?

DPS would be better than the racial weapons.

I will certainly carry some handwraps, but here are 5 things to consider:

1. 6 monk only makes unarmed 1d8, 1 point better than shortswords without enhancements; drow get +2 to hit and damage.

2. Holy Sword will not create handwraps.

3. You cannot make greensteel handwraps.

4. Piercing gets through some DR that Bludgeoning does not.

5. One of the best epic weapons is a shortsword.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I will certainly carry some handwraps, but here are 5 things to consider:

1. 6 monk only makes unarmed 1d8, 1 point better than shortswords without enhancements; drow get +2 to hit and damage.

2. Holy Sword will not create handwraps.

3. You cannot make greensteel handwraps.

4. Piercing gets through some DR that Bludgeoning does not.

5. One of the best epic weapons is a shortsword.

Many people have considered it. Fact is, handwraps will still have better DPS. It sucks, I know, but there it is.

Out of curiosity, which shortsword are you referring to?

(if you want to do the math, add holy burst + shocking burst + greater bane + icy burst + metalline + 100% offhand strength bonus + 10% faster attack speed compared to shortsword DPS. Handwraps are designed to compete DPS wise with the top DPS weapons like Khopesh, shortswords are a walk in the park for them, you can swap metalline for some more DPS against most mobs too.)


AC is still attainable, it's just never going to get into the 90s, but you're still missing the point; ninja fade is 25% incorporeal, which works against everything in the game. That's like having an OK AC by itself. Add zeal, wind stance, and ki moves, and you have 15% double strike with racial weapons and a non-stop barrage of extra damage from ki strikes and smites.

No, it's not khopesh kensei dps, but it should be able to dps while tanking, and that's the point :)

It's a bit incorrect to describe smites as a "non-stop barrage", don't you think?
I'd be curious to see the HP mockup of this build with your base 10 con while in wind stance, not sure how much tanking you will be doing with that.
DPS wise you are heaping quite a few sacrifices one on top of the other, shortswords instead of handwraps, incorporeality instead of DMIII.
I guess a more important question is if you will be able to hold aggro with intimidate and what you expect your end game intimidate. I'm not even sure with DoS or divine righteousness will be enough with low DPS against the competition.

[elg582]

Many people have considered it. Fact is, handwraps will still have better DPS. It sucks, I know, but there it is.

Out of curiosity, which shortsword are you referring to?

(if you want to do the math, add holy burst + shocking burst + greater bane + icy burst + metalline + 100% offhand strength bonus + 10% faster attack speed compared to shortsword DPS. Handwraps are designed to compete DPS wise with the top DPS weapons like Khopesh, shortswords are a walk in the park for them, you can swap metalline for some more DPS against most mobs too.)



It's a bit incorrect to describe smites as a "non-stop barrage", don't you think?
I'd be curious to see the HP mockup of this build with your base 10 con while in wind stance, not sure how much tanking you will be doing with that.
DPS wise you are heaping quite a few sacrifices one on top of the other, shortswords instead of handwraps, incorporeality instead of DMIII.
I guess a more important question is if you will be able to hold aggro with intimidate and what you expect your end game intimidate. I'm not even sure with DoS or divine righteousness will be enough with low DPS against the competition.

I'm not going to go line by line on this, so I'll just hit the high points:

- unarmed is not more DPS if you are missing; the +3 to-hit is a lot on a build without other to-hit bonuses.

- Epic Sting is a +6 2d12 shortsword

- The unarmed DPS calcs are good models, but still do not accurately assess real game situations; for example, the ToD rings give +2 exceptional stats if you aren't using handwraps, no GS or holy sword wraps, etc.

- Between smites and ki strikes, "non-stop" is a fair adjective.

- HP should hit 500 without any problems, and ninja incorporeal is like have 33% more hp, so it will be like having ~670.

- DM3 requires 18 base CHA (where are those points going to come from?), handwraps will be at -3 to-hit (assuming equal wraps; devouts vs holy sword will be -6 to-hit and -5 damage, and I can't find better than +3 metalline on any of my monks). Oh, and the 10% is a wash against zeal.

- 25 (skill) + 15 (item) + 6 (CHA) + 2 (Tenacious Badger) + 4 (GH) = 52 intimidate without really trying.

[Sani_Medicor]

Go to 15 paladin and 16 Charisma to get DMIII, this is a huge DPS build for a TWF build.

Here's a build I've started leveling recently...

Lawful Good Elf
(15 Paladin / 3 Monk / 2 Fighter)

Stats
Str 16 +5 Level Ups
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 16
(Use +2 Tomes At Level 7)

Progression
1 Monk
2-3 Fighter
4-9 Paladin
10-11 Monk
12-20 Paladin

Feats
1 Toughness
1 Two Weapon Fighting
2 Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
3 Weapon Focus: Slashing
3 Whirling Steel Strike
6 Force of Personality
9 Improved Critical: Slashing
10 Power Attack
11 Path of Harmonious Balance
12 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
15 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18 Extend Spell

Skills
Balance and Concentration

Enhancements
Elven Dexterity II
Elven Toughness II
Elven Melee Attack II
Elven Melee Damage II
Paladin Devotion II
Paladin Charisma II
Paladin Toughness IV
Paladin Divine Might III
Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Paladin Courage of Good II
Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Paladin Resistance of Good II
Paladin Energy of Templar II
Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Paladin Unyielding Sovereignty
Paladin Follower of the Sovereign Host
Fighter Strength I
Fighter Haste Boost I
Monk Improved Recovery I
Monk Way of the Patient Tortoise I

[Failedlegend]

Here's a build I've started leveling recently...

Lawful Good Elf
(15 Paladin / 3 Monk / 2 Fighter)

Stats
Str 16 +5 Level Ups
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 16
(Use +2 Tomes At Level 7)

Progression
1 Monk
2-3 Fighter
4-9 Paladin
10-11 Monk
12-20 Paladin

Feats
1 Toughness
1 Two Weapon Fighting
2 Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
3 Weapon Focus: Slashing
3 Whirling Steel Strike
6 Force of Personality
9 Improved Critical: Slashing
10 Power Attack
11 Path of Harmonious Balance
12 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
15 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18 Extend Spell

Skills
Balance and Concentration

Enhancements
Elven Dexterity II
Elven Toughness II
Elven Melee Attack II
Elven Melee Damage II
Paladin Devotion II
Paladin Charisma II
Paladin Toughness IV
Paladin Divine Might III
Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Paladin Courage of Good II
Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Paladin Resistance of Good II
Paladin Energy of Templar II
Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Paladin Unyielding Sovereignty
Paladin Follower of the Sovereign Host
Fighter Strength I
Fighter Haste Boost I
Monk Improved Recovery I
Monk Way of the Patient Tortoise I

Heh don't bother I'm doing a similar build (I'm pretty sure I'm the one he "thinks" is the new Player) and he believes its inferior something about Monk6 getting you 2.5% more double strike.

[elg582]

Here's a build I've started leveling recently...

Lawful Good Elf
(15 Paladin / 3 Monk / 2 Fighter)

Stats
Str 16 +5 Level Ups
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 16
(Use +2 Tomes At Level 7)

Progression
1 Monk
2-3 Fighter
4-9 Paladin
10-11 Monk
12-20 Paladin

Feats
1 Toughness
1 Two Weapon Fighting
2 Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
3 Weapon Focus: Slashing
3 Whirling Steel Strike
6 Force of Personality
9 Improved Critical: Slashing
10 Power Attack
11 Path of Harmonious Balance
12 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
15 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18 Extend Spell

Skills
Balance and Concentration

Enhancements
Elven Dexterity II
Elven Toughness II
Elven Melee Attack II
Elven Melee Damage II
Paladin Devotion II
Paladin Charisma II
Paladin Toughness IV
Paladin Divine Might III
Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Paladin Courage of Good II
Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Paladin Resistance of Good II
Paladin Energy of Templar II
Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Paladin Unyielding Sovereignty
Paladin Follower of the Sovereign Host
Fighter Strength I
Fighter Haste Boost I
Monk Improved Recovery I
Monk Way of the Patient Tortoise I

That's not a bad character, but it's entirely different; you dps, me tank-trying-to-dps-at-the-same-time.

My only other point is that while I've seen these 15/3/2 builds on the forums for a while, I haven't seen any in raids, but then, I haven't seen any 14/6's out there either :)

[elg582]

Heh don't bother I'm doing a similar build (I'm pretty sure I'm the one he "thinks" is the new Player) and he believes its inferior something about Monk6 getting you 2.5% more double strike.

I don't even know what to say here; "You missed it"?

[wax_on_wax_off]

I'm not going to go line by line on this, so I'll just hit the high points:

- unarmed is not more DPS if you are missing; the +3 to-hit is a lot on a build without other to-hit bonuses.

- Epic Sting is a +6 2d12 shortsword

- The unarmed DPS calcs are good models, but still do not accurately assess real game situations; for example, the ToD rings give +2 exceptional stats if you aren't using handwraps, no GS or holy sword wraps, etc.

- Between smites and ki strikes, "non-stop" is a fair adjective.

- HP should hit 500 without any problems, and ninja incorporeal is like have 33% more hp, so it will be like having ~670.

- DM3 requires 18 base CHA (where are those points going to come from?), handwraps will be at -3 to-hit (assuming equal wraps; devouts vs holy sword will be -6 to-hit and -5 damage, and I can't find better than +3 metalline on any of my monks). Oh, and the 10% is a wash against zeal.

- 25 (skill) + 15 (item) + 6 (CHA) + 2 (Tenacious Badger) + 4 (GH) = 52 intimidate without really trying.

1. Shortsword with 19-20x2 critical is still a mediocre weapon, regardless of base damage.
2. The difference in attack bonus between unarmed and shortswords is not 3, its 1. Using 2 weapons incurs a -2 penalty to attack before any other bonuses, unarmed does not.
3. Non-stop is not a fair adjective for an ability that will stop when it is exhausted (smites).
4. 500 HP is ok, not sure how that fits in the intimidate idea, I'm no expert there.
5. -2 for using weapons, +5 weapon, +2 racial +1 faith = 6, +2 wraps = 2, 4 attack difference or did I miss something? Once you get +5 metallines of GEOB and holy bursted ring things start to go the other way. Anyway, there is no reason you can't craft holy short swords until you get the ToD rings/+5 metallines.
6. Against zeal? I'm suggesting faster handwrap attack speed + zeal. And these bonuses stack multiplicatively. Check out the attack speed thread wherever it is, handwraps *really* start to shine in high attack speed/under affect situations (like doublestrike).
7. 25 Skill? A typo i guess, 23 is max ranks ... Either way, I think you will start to struggle to fit in the intim gear + ac gear at the same time, but I'm not an expert on item layouts.

[elg582]

Once you get +5 metallines of GEOB and holy bursted ring things start to go the other way.

Skipping right over the stuff you would know the answers to if you had read the thread, this part stuck out; I play 5 monks on 3 servers, 2 of them TRs, with something like 150 shroud runs between them, my first monk was made the day the class came out, and I have never, ever seen even +4 metalline handwraps, much less +5 of GEOB (yes, yes, metalline didn't exist when monks came out, still).