TR's 3-10 (and 12+) Need a Boost

[Lithic]

True Reincarnation suffers from big jumps in power gain for time invested. TRing once gives you the most benefit for the least time. Tring twice is almost as good. Hitting TR 11 gets you completionist, but it costs a feat slot and takes a very very long time. Every other TR is much less valuable as it has the same XP cost as a TR2, yet doesn't provide +2 build points.

I propose we add something to each TR to make the "dead" lives more valuable. Here are my 3 proposals in order of decreasing character benefit. I don't advocate adding all 3, just one of the list.

1) Add +1 build point per past life past the second one.

Currently a 36pt character is the equivalent of starting with 14s in all stats. It would take 12 more lives to get this to all 15s, and 24 lives for all 16s. At the extreme, a character with all 33 possible past life feats would be equivalent to a character with one 18 and 5 16s. In all but the extreme cases, this would just allow characters to shore up their weak stats. Even at the extreme, it means that an extra 132million xp would provide the equivalent of a set of stacking +2 tomes (and one +4) over a normal TR2+ character.

IMO the power creep for this is less than most of the desireable set bonuses in epic gear, and it is spread out over years.

2) Add +5% stacking exp per past life.

If increasing the benefit of more past lives is undesireable, then decreasing the investment needed to get them would also make them more attractive. A TR3 would need 3.806mill xp instead of 4.378. A TR 11 would need 2.825mill xp. At the extreme, a TR 33 would be down to 1.652mill xp on their last life.

This bonus would encourage people to go further than 2 TRs, and also make it easier for people to want new classes (and their new past lives) in their build. As a completionist, I can tell you that the thought of a new class coming out right after I TR into what I thought would be my final build annoys me. Especially since I'd likely then have to TR BACK into my final build. With an exp bonus per past life feat, a new class would be much easier to enjoy, rather than a "**** you turbine you ruined my character and now I gotta grind out 9mill xp more". As of right now there are few people that share this concern, but our numbers grow with every new update.

I honestly can't think of a downside to a small exp bonus per past life (other than a slight drop in XP potion sales due to shorter TRs, though that would likely be compensated with increased TRing), other than making it slightly easier for newer characters to get completionist. Personally I don't have a problem with that.

3) Grant a +5% guild renown bonus per past life

This one has almost ZERO effect in quests, but would help get more prestige for your guild. Since a TR2+ is legendary, they should be rewarded with even more guild renown than mere adventurers. The further they go on the path of legends, the more renown they should command.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

All good ideas.

And if you will permit me to add my own...

Although I will never have a completionist, please make the Completionist feat a FREE feat. It's a heck of a lot of time invested, lets give these folks something to show for it.

(And as a side note...did you know on Argo when people discuss TR levelling strategy the phrase "Well when Star is doing it..." often comes up?)

[painindaguild]

loool

sorry stopped reading after the +1 build point per past life, wich i accidentaly glanced first at.

in a pve game its of less concern that 1 character is alot stronger then another, but its still of concern, so all may "feel" like they contribute and are usefull and needed and the other blabla.

ino i would be able to solo anything after 11 past lifes with these updates, and my guess is u can do the same.
if u want a solo game there are really good single player games.

[maddmatt70]

I disagree OP. The same can be said for end game powergaming that after putting in the same amount of time as someone trring the first two times they gain the most gear, but after that the gain is less and less. I can put 500 hours into a character's gear, but the first 100 hours I see by far the most gain and over the last 400 hours there is itteratively less and less gain. By your proposal gear powergamers should also see greater benefit for those last 400 hours as well.

Wether or not someone chooses to tr over and over that is their choice just like somebody who decides to try to acquire that last piece of hard to acquire gear. I am not a fan of overpowering one group at the expense of another group. I dislike levelling and have no desire to do double trrs, but would rather try to get gear at the end game. Why make DDO so slated toward trs? Finally, what does trring have to do with D&D? Nothing whatsover at all.

[Darkrok]

I disagree with the first two. The last one I'm 100% on board with though. I can't see creating characters that start with 18/16/16/16/16/16. And the point of TR'ing is that it's supposed to be time-consuming. It shouldn't slowly get easier.

That said, if someone has that many TR's then their guild should get a huge boost to renown. As you put it, they're legendary after all!

If there's any benefit I'd like to see for TR's it's more storage space. Especially bank space as it's already implemented from a coding perspective.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

True Reincarnation suffers from big jumps in power gain for time invested. TRing once gives you the most benefit for the least time. Tring twice is almost as good. Hitting TR 11 gets you completionist, but it costs a feat slot and takes a very very long time. Every other TR is much less valuable as it has the same XP cost as a TR2, yet doesn't provide +2 build points.

I propose we add something to each TR to make the "dead" lives more valuable. Here are my 3 proposals in order of decreasing character benefit. I don't advocate adding all 3, just one of the list.

1) Add +1 build point per past life past the second one.

Currently a 36pt character is the equivalent of starting with 14s in all stats. It would take 12 more lives to get this to all 15s, and 24 lives for all 16s. At the extreme, a character with all 33 possible past life feats would be equivalent to a character with one 18 and 5 16s. In all but the extreme cases, this would just allow characters to shore up their weak stats. Even at the extreme, it means that an extra 132million xp would provide the equivalent of a set of stacking +2 tomes (and one +4) over a normal TR2+ character.

IMO the power creep for this is less than most of the desireable set bonuses in epic gear, and it is spread out over years.

2) Add +5% stacking exp per past life.

If increasing the benefit of more past lives is undesireable, then decreasing the investment needed to get them would also make them more attractive. A TR3 would need 3.806mill xp instead of 4.378. A TR 11 would need 2.825mill xp. At the extreme, a TR 33 would be down to 1.652mill xp on their last life.

This bonus would encourage people to go further than 2 TRs, and also make it easier for people to want new classes (and their new past lives) in their build. As a completionist, I can tell you that the thought of a new class coming out right after I TR into what I thought would be my final build annoys me. Especially since I'd likely then have to TR BACK into my final build. With an exp bonus per past life feat, a new class would be much easier to enjoy, rather than a "**** you turbine you ruined my character and now I gotta grind out 9mill xp more". As of right now there are few people that share this concern, but our numbers grow with every new update.

I honestly can't think of a downside to a small exp bonus per past life (other than a slight drop in XP potion sales due to shorter TRs, though that would likely be compensated with increased TRing), other than making it slightly easier for newer characters to get completionist. Personally I don't have a problem with that.

3) Grant a +5% guild renown bonus per past life

This one has almost ZERO effect in quests, but would help get more prestige for your guild. Since a TR2+ is legendary, they should be rewarded with even more guild renown than mere adventurers. The further they go on the path of legends, the more renown they should command.


First, Star (look Coldflame up in-game) I promised to add 100K plat to Tot's grand prize to the first person to get completionist in Argo...but went on a 7-month break since :)

Secondly, I think your ideas are fantastic. I think right now I'll be doing TR1 on my three main and maybe if I want to /ragequit I'll TR2 one of them :) mostly the one lowering XP requirements per life would an amazingly-needed incentive to TR past TR2.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

I disagree with the first two. The last one I'm 100% on board with though. I can't see creating characters that start with 18/16/16/16/16/16.

The OP has already TR'd 18 times. And having only partially TR'd couple of my toons, I feel his or her pain (mostly the grind and XP requirements). I could do without the build point increase, but lowering XP reqs after 2nd TR would be a great incentive for people to TR past TR2.

[countesscrow]

I think the past life feats are already a decent reward.

I just feel that the XP required from 36 pt on is to steep.

[Don1966]

True Reincarnation suffers from big jumps in power gain for time invested. TRing once gives you the most benefit for the least time. Tring twice is almost as good. Hitting TR 11 gets you completionist, but it costs a feat slot and takes a very very long time. Every other TR is much less valuable as it has the same XP cost as a TR2, yet doesn't provide +2 build points.

I propose we add something to each TR to make the "dead" lives more valuable. Here are my 3 proposals in order of decreasing character benefit. I don't advocate adding all 3, just one of the list.

1) Add +1 build point per past life past the second one.

Currently a 36pt character is the equivalent of starting with 14s in all stats. It would take 12 more lives to get this to all 15s, and 24 lives for all 16s. At the extreme, a character with all 33 possible past life feats would be equivalent to a character with one 18 and 5 16s. In all but the extreme cases, this would just allow characters to shore up their weak stats. Even at the extreme, it means that an extra 132million xp would provide the equivalent of a set of stacking +2 tomes (and one +4) over a normal TR2+ character.

IMO the power creep for this is less than most of the desireable set bonuses in epic gear, and it is spread out over years.

2) Add +5% stacking exp per past life.

If increasing the benefit of more past lives is undesireable, then decreasing the investment needed to get them would also make them more attractive. A TR3 would need 3.806mill xp instead of 4.378. A TR 11 would need 2.825mill xp. At the extreme, a TR 33 would be down to 1.652mill xp on their last life.

This bonus would encourage people to go further than 2 TRs, and also make it easier for people to want new classes (and their new past lives) in their build. As a completionist, I can tell you that the thought of a new class coming out right after I TR into what I thought would be my final build annoys me. Especially since I'd likely then have to TR BACK into my final build. With an exp bonus per past life feat, a new class would be much easier to enjoy, rather than a "**** you turbine you ruined my character and now I gotta grind out 9mill xp more". As of right now there are few people that share this concern, but our numbers grow with every new update.

I honestly can't think of a downside to a small exp bonus per past life (other than a slight drop in XP potion sales due to shorter TRs, though that would likely be compensated with increased TRing), other than making it slightly easier for newer characters to get completionist. Personally I don't have a problem with that.

3) Grant a +5% guild renown bonus per past life

This one has almost ZERO effect in quests, but would help get more prestige for your guild. Since a TR2+ is legendary, they should be rewarded with even more guild renown than mere adventurers. The further they go on the path of legends, the more renown they should command.


All good ideas.

And if you will permit me to add my own...

Although I will never have a completionist, please make the Completionist feat a FREE feat. It's a heck of a lot of time invested, lets give these folks something to show for it.

(And as a side note...did you know on Argo when people discuss TR levelling strategy the phrase "Well when Star is doing it..." often comes up?)


i wouldn't mind seeing all 4 of these ideas come to fruition. some will say that this would make a completionist build way over powered. but as long as for human the starting stats can't go over 18 and the over races that have 20 max it won't. back in my days of pnp it was possible to have a character with 18/100 str and 18 on all the over stats, it all depended on the roll of the dice. of course you could also have a character with stats that were all 3s too.

[Crazyfruit]

Maybe a handful of extra action points instead of build points?

That'd be fun and I can't see it being too unbalancing -within reason-

I kinda like that there isn't much of a reward for doing it (I have about 9 TR lives)... most of us only TR because we're bored & feel like it, but some people still think of it as an insane grind to make the best characters. Lost one friend who decided he'd try going for Completionist "because I play to win" and going nuts on life #4


If there's any benefit I'd like to see for TR's it's more storage space. Especially bank space as it's already implemented from a coding perspective.

My TR's got the character bank slot upgrades with their second life's free TP.

[Finch_Bloomwhiffler]

I agree with countesscrow that the current past-life benefits seem reward enough. Sure, depending on your final build, some things are more useful and relevant, but they all make a character more powerful than one that hasn't TRed umpteen times already.

Part of the madness/accomplishment of getting Completionist is that you've survived the XP grind. It would be bittersweet to see that nerfed.

That said, I do like the suggestion of Completionist being a free feat. After all, you've survived the XP grind. :)

[Nick_RC]

Make completionist a free feat and knock off 500k xp over the last 2 levels and I'm good.

N

[redoubt]

Alternate to number one for those who think it is too powerful: Put 1 (one) point into the classes main stat. The player does not get to choose where it goes and not all of them will be benificial to the final build. This does not allow the stat to exceed the normal max stat. Also the cost increase still happens at the normal points. (Note: main stat would be the one that the class, not race, gets the most enhancements in.)

For example, the second TR was cleric and the character TRs into barbarian. The barb starts with 9 wisdom and a max of 18 (as is normal.) The barb will probably go through life with 9 wisdom. So no power increase there. BUT, the 3 past lives in barb would make a normally 8 starting con be 11 (still max at 18). So this would save 3 build points.

I like both ideas 2 and 3. For those who think #2 is too powerful then percentage could be adjusted. I had run similar math before, and 5% doesn't equal a normal character until a couple lives past completionist.

I like both the add ons as well.

1. Make completionist free. My main is doing multiple TRs, but will not branch out into any that don't increase melee capablity. Taking the completionist feat would, for me, reduce either HP or AC. Niether of which is acceptable (again, to me. Your milage may vary.)

2. Give an extra action point. This is intriguing and could be a lot of fun. But I don't think it should be done in addition to the stat increases. Both would be to much in my opinion.

[xTethx]

/not signed

The only thing Turbine should change after the 2nd TR is lower the xp needed to cap. So once you've attained 36 pt build if you wanna get another past life the xp needed to cap would be around 3.5 mil.

[MissMoogle]

1) Add +1 build point per past life past the second one.

Currently a 36pt character is the equivalent of starting with 14s in all stats. It would take 12 more lives to get this to all 15s, and 24 lives for all 16s. At the extreme, a character with all 33 possible past life feats would be equivalent to a character with one 18 and 5 16s. In all but the extreme cases, this would just allow characters to shore up their weak stats. Even at the extreme, it means that an extra 132million xp would provide the equivalent of a set of stacking +2 tomes (and one +4) over a normal TR2+ character.

IMO the power creep for this is less than most of the desireable set bonuses in epic gear, and it is spread out over years.

Sorry but this would make any character way to strong and is completely overbalancing may as well add "Demi-God" feat where I become william wallace and shoot lightning bolts outta me ars..bum :)




2) Add +5% stacking exp per past life.

No way. The reason most TR fanatics even bother TRing is because it sets you apart from the others. This would devalue what has already been accomplished and make a hard earned reward a fast food pick up. I dont think you appreciate how much +5% is stacking.. its insane.


The only thing Turbine should change after the 2nd TR is lower the xp needed to cap. So once you've attained 36 pt build if you wanna get another past life the xp needed to cap would be around 3.5 mil.

Umm are you crazy? Have you ever even TR'd before? I'm on my 10th life and there is more than enough experience to attain the 4.4 mil. Majority of my lives I skip over at LEAST 25% of the game.. at LEAST!! and that's being very generous.


3) Grant a +5% guild renown bonus per past life

This one has almost ZERO effect in quests, but would help get more prestige for your guild. Since a TR2+ is legendary, they should be rewarded with even more guild renown than mere adventurers. The further they go on the path of legends, the more renown they should command.
Your my hero! Idk about 5%, maybe 2.5 to 4%? But that is such a great idea (virtual hugz) ^^



...
Although I will never have a completionist, please make the Completionist feat a FREE feat. It's a heck of a lot of time invested, lets give these folks something to show for it...

If I could give you 20 renown points I would! Anyone that endures 10+ lives should be given a REWARD not tossed a bone :(


...And the point of TR'ing is that it's supposed to be time-consuming. It shouldn't slowly get easier.
Agreed whats the point of a medal if everyone has 3? :)


... That said, if someone has that many TR's then their guild should get a huge boost to renown. As you put it, they're legendary after all!
I agree I'm totally legendary!!!! :p


..If there's any benefit I'd like to see for TR's it's more storage space. Especially bank space as it's already implemented from a coding perspective.

Oooooo I wish :/ all the TR gear is such a pain to transfer



Finally, what does trring have to do with D&D? Nothing whatsover at all.

Dude your totally right!! and omg killing velah 100 times has like everything to do with D&D right? and dude OMG so do soul stones right? and OMG DUUUUUUDE everyone having the same gear TOTALLLY has EVERYTING to do with dnd... :D


I think the past life feats are already a decent reward..
Erm your right But the ranger one is laughable 2 to all resists? How about something awesome like +3.3333% movement speed STACKING (wonder how many rangers Id see on Orien lol)



Maybe a handful of extra action points instead of build points?...
NOOOOOOOOOOOO she just wants barfing dogs end game!! dont let this happen!!! :p


ok now my own input.

I was planning on like a 30 life build and my end build has something like 2 +4 tomes and 2 +3 tomes. The thing is you LOSE completionist feat if a new class comes out and can only get it back if you TR into said classes (What happens to feat slot?). Thus you lose those insanely rare (for my server Orien) tomes.

I was thinking how +3 and +4 tomes should stay apart of your toon (or just given back once you tr) if you have to TR to get completionist again. Which I think is more than fair considering the 11+ lives you have to put into even getting the feat!!!

I was also thinking of trying to argue how 12 lives is a long time and all who survive this endeavor should be REWARDED, the fact that compltionist isn't passive, and that you have to take up a feat slot is very silly to me. Those are the two big things I was hoping to try and get changed (seeing as how if enough people say something needs to be changed it usually is!)

I was thinking that a "Completionist List" would be neat. Like on character builder when you start new and you finally have completionist, not only should you get the feat as passive but you should also give us like a list of a few things and we only get to pick 1 to 3


1) Add +40 deity bonus to hp
2) Add +1 to deity bonus all stats
3) Add +2 deity bonus to hit
4)Tome anatomy (basically any +3 or 4 tomes you eat pass on from life to life in the event another class comes out and you have to TR again)
5) Add +1 deity bonus to all spell DCs
6) Add +1 deity to all Martial art/fighter DCs

Yada yada yoda! Honestly I'm just rooting for tome anatomy, the rest is chump change and not to be taken as a serious request. I just think spending all that time raiding to get those tomes only to find out "ATTENTION!!!Update 42:Hey druid is coming out get ready to ride lions and make vines crawl!!! Sorry to all you completionists!! All those tomes you ate are worthless and you suck!" would ruin alot of peoples days :(

[Fafnir]

I think completionist should certainly be a free feat. The other suggestions, while having merit, I can go either way.

[xTethx]

Umm are you crazy? Have you ever even TR'd before? I'm on my 10th life and there is more than enough experience to attain the 4.4 mil. Majority of my lives I skip over at LEAST 25% of the game.. at LEAST!! and that's being very generous.
see on Orien lol)

Nope havent tried reincarnation yet, but I hear it only takes about 5 days to cap a toon, so I see no problem with the change.

[Senshock]

How about:

Renown - maybe a bit less %...maybe 2.5%..?

+1 to prime stat after 3 lives in same class?

2.5% stacking reduction in xp required/life past 3rd? with a 15% cap?

33 past lives!? OK well have completionist feat stack also! :O



Re: tomes /notsigned - barfing dogs not withstanding

[TheBroken_JPK]

Completionist should be a free feat. Also, I think there needs to be a unique graphic when you get completionist. Maybe a gold name?

I can't imagine having cumulative +1 build points past tr2. Totally against that.

[Nezichiend]

Nope havent tried reincarnation yet, but I hear it only takes about 5 days to cap a toon, so I see no problem with the change.

sh*t, Teth hasn't even capped a toon ever!

Or solo'd vod elite
Or solo'd tod
Or solo'd epic DA ;)

[Junts]

True Reincarnation suffers from big jumps in power gain for time invested. TRing once gives you the most benefit for the least time. Tring twice is almost as good. Hitting TR 11 gets you completionist, but it costs a feat slot and takes a very very long time. Every other TR is much less valuable as it has the same XP cost as a TR2, yet doesn't provide +2 build points.

I propose we add something to each TR to make the "dead" lives more valuable. Here are my 3 proposals in order of decreasing character benefit. I don't advocate adding all 3, just one of the list.

1) Add +1 build point per past life past the second one.

Currently a 36pt character is the equivalent of starting with 14s in all stats. It would take 12 more lives to get this to all 15s, and 24 lives for all 16s. At the extreme, a character with all 33 possible past life feats would be equivalent to a character with one 18 and 5 16s. In all but the extreme cases, this would just allow characters to shore up their weak stats. Even at the extreme, it means that an extra 132million xp would provide the equivalent of a set of stacking +2 tomes (and one +4) over a normal TR2+ character.

IMO the power creep for this is less than most of the desireable set bonuses in epic gear, and it is spread out over years.

2) Add +5% stacking exp per past life.

If increasing the benefit of more past lives is undesireable, then decreasing the investment needed to get them would also make them more attractive. A TR3 would need 3.806mill xp instead of 4.378. A TR 11 would need 2.825mill xp. At the extreme, a TR 33 would be down to 1.652mill xp on their last life.

This bonus would encourage people to go further than 2 TRs, and also make it easier for people to want new classes (and their new past lives) in their build. As a completionist, I can tell you that the thought of a new class coming out right after I TR into what I thought would be my final build annoys me. Especially since I'd likely then have to TR BACK into my final build. With an exp bonus per past life feat, a new class would be much easier to enjoy, rather than a "**** you turbine you ruined my character and now I gotta grind out 9mill xp more". As of right now there are few people that share this concern, but our numbers grow with every new update.

I honestly can't think of a downside to a small exp bonus per past life (other than a slight drop in XP potion sales due to shorter TRs, though that would likely be compensated with increased TRing), other than making it slightly easier for newer characters to get completionist. Personally I don't have a problem with that.

3) Grant a +5% guild renown bonus per past life

This one has almost ZERO effect in quests, but would help get more prestige for your guild. Since a TR2+ is legendary, they should be rewarded with even more guild renown than mere adventurers. The further they go on the path of legends, the more renown they should command.

Hey Star, I don't have a strong feeling on this either way, but I want to point something out:

You making this post comes across a lot as "I decided to do this really tedious, boring thing because I thought it'd be fun for me, now I'm comitted and I realize that the returns on doing so totally blow, so they should be increased". The returns do totally blow, and very few people even set out on the completionist path (and as far as I know, you are the only one who's made a serious attempt at 3 of each class).

Yeah, the returns suck: They clearly didn't intend for what you're doing to be incentivized or encouraged or done by anyone except people exactly like you who compulsively level and don't play the endgame at all, but don't want more than one character either.

The really crappy returns on lives 3+ are, well, intended! We know completionist was originally added as a joke!

I, for one, am really glad there is no incentive to tr my characters more than a couple times each: I really, really would prefer to play the endgame and gain power there than run 250 more shadow crypts, 250 more von3s, etc (assuming 11-12 per life!)

[noinfo]

True Reincarnation suffers from big jumps in power gain for time invested. TRing once gives you the most benefit for the least time. Tring twice is almost as good. Hitting TR 11 gets you completionist, but it costs a feat slot and takes a very very long time. Every other TR is much less valuable as it has the same XP cost as a TR2, yet doesn't provide +2 build points.

I propose we add something to each TR to make the "dead" lives more valuable. Here are my 3 proposals in order of decreasing character benefit. I don't advocate adding all 3, just one of the list.

1) Add +1 build point per past life past the second one.

Currently a 36pt character is the equivalent of starting with 14s in all stats. It would take 12 more lives to get this to all 15s, and 24 lives for all 16s. At the extreme, a character with all 33 possible past life feats would be equivalent to a character with one 18 and 5 16s. In all but the extreme cases, this would just allow characters to shore up their weak stats. Even at the extreme, it means that an extra 132million xp would provide the equivalent of a set of stacking +2 tomes (and one +4) over a normal TR2+ character.

IMO the power creep for this is less than most of the desireable set bonuses in epic gear, and it is spread out over years.

2) Add +5% stacking exp per past life.

If increasing the benefit of more past lives is undesireable, then decreasing the investment needed to get them would also make them more attractive. A TR3 would need 3.806mill xp instead of 4.378. A TR 11 would need 2.825mill xp. At the extreme, a TR 33 would be down to 1.652mill xp on their last life.

This bonus would encourage people to go further than 2 TRs, and also make it easier for people to want new classes (and their new past lives) in their build. As a completionist, I can tell you that the thought of a new class coming out right after I TR into what I thought would be my final build annoys me. Especially since I'd likely then have to TR BACK into my final build. With an exp bonus per past life feat, a new class would be much easier to enjoy, rather than a "**** you turbine you ruined my character and now I gotta grind out 9mill xp more". As of right now there are few people that share this concern, but our numbers grow with every new update.

I honestly can't think of a downside to a small exp bonus per past life (other than a slight drop in XP potion sales due to shorter TRs, though that would likely be compensated with increased TRing), other than making it slightly easier for newer characters to get completionist. Personally I don't have a problem with that.

3) Grant a +5% guild renown bonus per past life

This one has almost ZERO effect in quests, but would help get more prestige for your guild. Since a TR2+ is legendary, they should be rewarded with even more guild renown than mere adventurers. The further they go on the path of legends, the more renown they should command.

1. Sorry not a chance, without a way for people who just want to play end game to advance rather than the re-roll this is way over powered.

2. I can go one way or the other on this but my initial feeling is no. While I appreciate people wanting to TR they already get benefits that others at end game don't.

3. Not sure why the 36 pt build should be getting more renown then the 28 pt helping slay that epic dragon/abashai...

What the really need to do though is give the completionist feat for free to those who have worked through the TR cycle. You folks really deserve it.

[Cetus]

After acquiring the completionist feat myself, you don't truly have a feel for what kind of grind it really is until you go from start to finish.

Now, it is very troublesome to tailor the reward in a manner which doesn't create significant overpowering with respect to others, but also makes the individual happy with the reward. What I can state with FACT, is that the latter remains to be fulfilled.

Suggestions that might fit the above criteria:

1. The feat *needs* to be granted with no cost to the individual. I had a thread up concerning this for a couple of months or so that grew to a size adequate enough to reflect the communities opinion. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=274239

2. An additional component should be added to the feat, which allows all tomes higher than +2 to be permanantly embedded within the individual. After several TR's, sure one can argue that its your own fault that you ate the +4 tome; but, if you acquire the completionist feat- this penalty is revoked.

3. As far as having the build points count toward meeting feat requirements, such as the dex enabling the acquisition of TWF feat- that starts to slide into my former point in my initial statement and begins to overpower your comrades. But, the intel aspect granting you an additional skill per level would be a neat indirect improvement.

4. Your legend icon should be CHANGED to something of more accurate reflection of your stature.

5. A completionists physical appearance should somehow be altered. Changing the color of our wings would be a good start.

6. Also, although I would love to tweak the xp somehow for future TR's, I believe that it should only be tweaked perhaps by 20-25% only when the feat is FORCEFULLY inactivated due to turbines introduction of a new class. This way it ensures a more speedy recovery.

7. Lastly, upon acquisition of this feat, disable the resetting of our raid timers so when the feat is disabled we aren't cought halfway toward a 20th run in any of the raids and have to wait them out or be forced to forfeit them for the sake of reacquiring the feat.


I believe that ALL of the above tweaks would satisfy us as completionists and those of us who are not willing to pursue the grind.

Additionally, I overwhelmingly disagree with junts' statement about how the feat was a "joke." Despite that perhaps being true, I disagree with minimizing its importance in the face of that fact as more of us are starting to acquire it. Its a working part of the game, with people (such as myself) spending a lot of resources to acquire it. Turbine should commend us for successfully achieving this goal with the above 7 suggestions.


Cet

[redoubt]

I enjoy reading the ideas and recounts of the few who have already hit completionist. Myself, I've only just completed the second on my main and a single on an alt so, I'm a long way off.

Anyway, I see a lot of neat ideas reading this thread. I also see some valid concern over making it too powerful or too easy. With that in mind, I thought of (yet another) way to add small improvements.

TR3:
+1% xp bonus per character level. This works the same way the extra xp required works. This allows the bonus to scale with the extra required.
+1 skill point at each level. (Thats one extra at level one. Then one and only one extra at level two, etc.)

TR4:
+2% xp bonus per character level. (Total. Not in addition to.)
+1 AP available at level one. (No more at other levels, but it can be carried over like other action points.)

TR5:
+3% xp bonus per character level.
+1 build point. Makes you a 37 point build.

TR6:
+4% xp bonus per character level.
+2 skill points at each level. (Total, not in addition to.)

TR7:
+5% xp bonus per character level. (This would make it the equivalent of leveling a TR1.)
+2 AP available at level one. (Total, not in addition to.)

TR8:
+6% xp bonus per character level.
+2 build points. Makes you a 38 point build.

TR9:
+7% xp bonus per character level.
+3 skill points at each level.

TR10:
+8% xp bonus per character level
+3 AP available at level one.

TR 11:
+9% xp bonus per character level
+3 build points. Makes you a 39 point build.
+1 feat at level one.

TR 12:
+10% xp bonus per character level. You now level at the same speed as a normal character.

TR 13 and up. No additional bonuses.

Summary:
At or about TR11 (completionist) you would have:
Bonus to xp that has you level the same rate as a new character.
1 extra feat slot at level one.
3 extra build points (making you a 39 point build.)
3 extra skill points per level.
3 extra AP to use whenever you like.

The benifits of continuing past this point, are the simply the bonuses you get from passive past life feats. You can now level at the same rate as new toons.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Make completionist a free feat and knock off 500k xp over the last 2 levels and I'm good.

N

That totally blew me away. You would guess that after so much effort that the completionist feat would be free forever after. That's just complete bull. So much bull, I think it's a "bug".

[Cetus]

That totally blew me away. You would guess that after so much effort that the completionist feat would be free forever after. That's just complete bull. So much bull, I think it's a "bug".

Well, unfortunately I think the devs implemented it thinking it wouldn't ever be acquired. Or, maybe they reasoned that it is somehow less of a grind than it actually is.

[Lithic]

Well, unfortunately I think the devs implemented it thinking it wouldn't ever be acquired. Or, maybe they reasoned that it is somehow less of a grind than it actually is.

Also they probably didn't realise how much of a grind it will be to get it back. Assuming you are at your final build, with all the past life feats you wanted, and that a new class gives you a useless past life feat, any new class will mean almost 9million exp (and 2k+ Turbine points or 40 epic tokens) for zero gain.

[MissMoogle]

I enjoy reading the ideas and recounts of the few who have already hit completionist. Myself, I've only just completed the second on my main and a single on an alt so, I'm a long way off.

Anyway, I see a lot of neat ideas reading this thread. I also see some valid concern over making it too powerful or too easy. With that in mind, I thought of (yet another) way to add small improvements.

TR3:
+1% xp bonus per character level. This works the same way the extra xp required works. This allows the bonus to scale with the extra required.
+1 skill point at each level. (Thats one extra at level one. Then one and only one extra at level two, etc.)

TR4:
+2% xp bonus per character level. (Total. Not in addition to.)
+1 AP available at level one. (No more at other levels, but it can be carried over like other action points.)

TR5:
+3% xp bonus per character level.
+1 build point. Makes you a 37 point build.

TR6:
+4% xp bonus per character level.
+2 skill points at each level. (Total, not in addition to.)

TR7:
+5% xp bonus per character level. (This would make it the equivalent of leveling a TR1.)
+2 AP available at level one. (Total, not in addition to.)

TR8:
+6% xp bonus per character level.
+2 build points. Makes you a 38 point build.

TR9:
+7% xp bonus per character level.
+3 skill points at each level.

TR10:
+8% xp bonus per character level
+3 AP available at level one.

TR 11:
+9% xp bonus per character level
+3 build points. Makes you a 39 point build.
+1 feat at level one.

TR 12:
+10% xp bonus per character level. You now level at the same speed as a normal character.

TR 13 and up. No additional bonuses.

Summary:
At or about TR11 (completionist) you would have:
Bonus to xp that has you level the same rate as a new character.
1 extra feat slot at level one.
3 extra build points (making you a 39 point build.)
3 extra skill points per level.
3 extra AP to use whenever you like.

The benifits of continuing past this point, are the simply the bonuses you get from passive past life feats. You can now level at the same rate as new toons.

No way! Again this is stupidly overpowered, the whole point of this thread is to make it a LEGITIMATE request.. this is basically asking for cheat mode!




1) Any xp bonus at all takes away from the actual value of acquiring Completionist! Why bother with first place if everyone gets a gold?

2) while the +1 skill thing would be neat at every level its not something most (if any) completionists really care for and once its all said and done it wouldn't seriously even be considered on the table.

3)the AP would again be neat but when it comes to "must have" I dont think this would be on the table either

4) I totally would love an extra feat who wouldn't? But again I think its secondary to what any completionist would REALLY want..need? DEMAND!! :p

5)38 point build would be awesome!!... But again this seems like another reason for whiney fan-boys to not take this thread seriously



There are THREE things I think are a must

a) Completionist should be a PASSIVE feat

b) Any +3 or +4 tomes you've eat once you acquire completionist carry over in the event you TR( either stay among your stats or reappear in your inventory upon creation)

c)Some kinda of symbol (crazy wings or gold or some combo of awesome) will depict us from the rest :)



...7. Lastly, upon acquisition of this feat, disable the resetting of our raid timers so when the feat is disabled we aren't cought halfway toward a 20th run in any of the raids and have to wait them out or be forced to forfeit them for the sake of reacquiring the feat.

I agree 100% and it should be heavily considered, how unfair an entire month and so many days would be lost upon a new class coming out? this is a close 4th on the must haves but I could live without it..though I'd be incredibly angry.


-Terrahhdactyl

[Ytteri]

7. Lastly, upon acquisition of this feat, disable the resetting of our raid timers so when the feat is disabled we aren't cought halfway toward a 20th run in any of the raids and have to wait them out or be forced to forfeit them for the sake of reacquiring the feat.



This made me think, why not a reduction in the total raid/epic timer per past life, say 2 hours each? Not very significant for the first few TRs as 2 days 14 hrs isn't that much better than 2 days 18 hrs, but as you gain lots of past lives you're able to get under 2 days, with the ultimate reward of triple past life everything being no raid timers at all (2 days 18 hrs = 66 hrs, funny how that works out).

Coding this would probably be a nightmare though.

[Rubiconn]

Id like to see some more rewards for each tr but its hard to do too much without throwing things out of balance.
Some AP's would be nice perhaps some TR only enhancements that you can use those AP's for, skill points are ok but I can see getting too many getting out of hand. Perhaps tomes could be awarded that are attribute specific to the class, like 3rd life as a paly gets you a +4 tome or +3 or something like that.

Id wouldnt mind a bonus feat that is a class only feat maybe or grant the added past life feat for your 3rd life on that class as an automatic at lvl 10 or something.

[Cetus]

Also they probably didn't realise how much of a grind it will be to get it back. Assuming you are at your final build, with all the past life feats you wanted, and that a new class gives you a useless past life feat, any new class will mean almost 9million exp (and 2k+ Turbine points or 40 epic tokens) for zero gain.

And to build on that point, since the feat "disables" when a new class gets released, you won't even get to try out the new class with the completionist feat at hand- since you'll need the new classes past life to activate it again.

[redoubt]

No way! Again this is stupidly overpowered, the whole point of this thread is to make it a LEGITIMATE request.. this is basically asking for cheat mode!]

Easy killer... I appreciate your impasioned repsonse, be we can leave the shouting and insults behind please. Thank you.

My second TR that is now cap'd was already cheat mode. The ideas are to come up with small incremental improvements to encourage people to play more.



1) Any xp bonus at all takes away from the actual value of acquiring Completionist! Why bother with first place if everyone gets a gold?

Maybe you can help me on this one. What do you think the value of completionist is?

To me, the value in completionist has nothing to do with winning or having something someone else does not. It is the ability to improve my character. When you say why bother if everyone gets it, it sounds like you want it to be exclusive so you will be special. I'm hoping I have read you wrong.

For me, I'm not even going to go to completionist under the current system. There is not enough incentive. My build (the only one I play enough to consider that many TRs) does not have the extra feat available to take the completionist feat. My plan is to take some monk and fighter past lives for attack and damage bonus and stop.

If, there were some other bonuses along the way, I might do a few more. And, if I could take the feat without losing one I already have, I might do a few more.



2) while the +1 skill thing would be neat at every level its not something most (if any) completionists really care for and once its all said and done it wouldn't seriously even be considered on the table.

So because it doesn't help all builds it should not be considered?



3)the AP would again be neat but when it comes to "must have" I dont think this would be on the table either

Again, it sounds like because this isn't the top of your priority list, we should not even consider it. Help me understand your real point here, please.



4) I totally would love an extra feat who wouldn't? But again I think its secondary to what any completionist would REALLY want..need? DEMAND!! :p

This is your "free completionist feat". You just have the option to not take it and take something else instead.



5)38 point build would be awesome!!... But again this seems like another reason for whiney fan-boys to not take this thread seriously

To be honest, I think many will complain about anything. I try not to worry too hard and simply have a decent discussion. Besides, the fanbois come out when we yell at turbine over nerfs and bugs, not over discussions like this.



[/COLOR]

There are THREE things I think are a must

a) Completionist should be a PASSIVE feat

b) Any +3 or +4 tomes you've eat once you acquire completionist carry over in the event you TR( either stay among your stats or reappear in your inventory upon creation)

c)Some kinda of symbol (crazy wings or gold or some combo of awesome) will depict us from the rest :)




I agree 100% and it should be heavily considered, how unfair an entire month and so many days would be lost upon a new class coming out? this is a close 4th on the must haves but I could live without it..though I'd be incredibly angry.


-Terrahhdactyl

I have no issue with your list of things you would like to see here in this post or in the other one you posted.

My issue, is that you seem to want to shut down any discussion of ideas that are not your own because you are fearful that it will prevent your ideas from being heard.

Also, as I've worked my way to the bottom of your post, I've yet to see where you explain how the ideas are overpowered. The only one you disagreed with was the xp and you simply dismissed the others as distractions rather than for being overpowered.

So, tell me again, the problem here...

[Cetus]

No way! Again this is stupidly overpowered, the whole point of this thread is to make it a LEGITIMATE request.. this is basically asking for cheat mode!



2) while the +1 skill thing would be neat at every level its not something most (if any) completionists really care for and once its all said and done it wouldn't seriously even be considered on the table.

]

Well, you seem to be coming off as someone who intimitely understands what completionists desire for their builds. I assure you that I would very much like an additional skill every level even as a pure fighter- it is something that indirectly improves the feat a bit- while keeping the power gap with non-completionists small.

And now that you, I'm assuming a non-completionist, are giving it little value in your post- this makes my point quite well.

[darko.87]

How about a free feat slot for TR's? An extra "Special" feat per TR. That way, you can take every past life feat, without gimping your build. Let's face it, most of the past life feats aren't that great, but they're nice. I've always wondered why TR's get one less, if they take their past life feat, feat than non TR's. Not fair in my opinion. Oh, and I agree with the +1 stat point per life. I mean, C'mon, it's not easy to TR, we should be rewarded. I want a TR that rocks in the quests I farm. They're not hard, but I mean, It'd be nice to be rewarded for grinding exp like we do. Isn't that what Turbine wants? If they want us to keep playing, they should reward us for doing so.

[jkm]

this was my proposal for dealing with a lot of the things that lithic is mentioning.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=292238

the key points i was trying to address are:

1. the issue with purchaseable feats being only useful to a few classes (IE ones with a lot of bonus feats)
2. completionist being deactivated
3. the fact that TR 3-12 isn't very rewarding.

this proposal would allow AP tight classes to use TRing to gain either extra class enhancements or spend them on appropriate purchaseable past life enhancements.

[Postumus]

Yeah, the returns suck: They clearly didn't intend for what you're doing to be incentivized or encouraged or done by anyone except people exactly like you who compulsively level and don't play the endgame at all, but don't want more than one character either.

The really crappy returns on lives 3+ are, well, intended! We know completionist was originally added as a joke!

I, for one, am really glad there is no incentive to tr my characters more than a couple times each: I really, really would prefer to play the endgame and gain power there than run 250 more shadow crypts, 250 more von3s, etc (assuming 11-12 per life!)


Yeah this. I don't think there should be any incentive to keep retreading the same character over and over.


11 TRs? That's not gaming, that's compulsion.

[maddmatt70]

Also they probably didn't realise how much of a grind it will be to get it back. Assuming you are at your final build, with all the past life feats you wanted, and that a new class gives you a useless past life feat, any new class will mean almost 9million exp (and 2k+ Turbine points or 40 epic tokens) for zero gain.

Let's be honest here with all the chips on the table. The best way to get Turbine points is to level up characters. I get no Turbine Points when I play the end game non at all. All the completionists levelling up their characters get tons and tons of Turbine Points such that they play the game for free and they get all the extra fun toys you can buy from the store. If you get your extra power up for completionist I should get 25 Turbine Points per epic token earned.

[Lithic]

I've had an idea for the naysayers about +1 build point/past life (Though I'd be perfectly happy with free completionist feat and +5%xp/TR bonus).

Pick a 36pt build. All I need to see is the class breakdown and stat distribution. Now right below, show the effect of an extra 10 build points (TR 12). List all the differences that are relevant to your build (don't bother putting in +2 to heal skill for example). Now try again with 20 extra past lives. Again list the differences. And then maybe you can convince me if it is overpowered for the investment. I'm truthfully interested in this as I admit I might be blinded to the effects of +1 build pt/TR since they would have very little effect on my preferred end build. I'm hoping this little excercise will show objectively if it is an overpowered effect or not.

I'll start:

20 rogue (36pt build)
16 Str
15 Dex
14 Con
14 Int
08 Wis
14 Cha

20 rogue (46pt build -- 43.78mill xp more than a 36pt)
18 Str
15 Dex
16 Con
14 Int
08 Wis
14 Cha

Changes (compared to 36pt build)
+1 to hit
+1 damage
+20 HP
+1 Fort save

20 Rogue (56pt build -- 87.56mill exp more than a 36pt build)
18 Str
15 Dex
18 Con
16 Int
08 Wis
14 Cha

Changes (compared to 36pt build)
+1 to hit
+1 damage
+40 HP
+2 fort save
+1 skill point per level
+1 disable, search

Just for fun I'll even do the extreme:
20 Rogue (67pt Build --max of 33 past lives, 140+mill xp more than a 36pt build)

18 Str
16 Dex
18 Con
16 Int
13 Wis
16 Cha

Changes (from a 36pt build)
+1 to hit
+1 Damage
+1 reflex save
+1 AC
+40 HP
+2 Fort Save
+1 Skill point per level
+1 disable/search
+2 will save
+1 UMD

My conclusion: On this 20 rogue, even 20 extra build points are barely noticeable, other than the hitpoints.

[Lithic]

Let's be honest here with all the chips on the table. The best way to get Turbine points is to level up characters. I get no Turbine Points when I play the end game non at all. All the completionists levelling up their characters get tons and tons of Turbine Points such that they play the game for free and they get all the extra fun toys you can buy from the store. If you get your extra power up for completionist I should get 25 Turbine Points per epic token earned.

Your "tons and tons" of turbine points is really about 200 per past life at best in my experience. I rarely end up with more than about 800 favor when I TR, as do my friends. If someone were to do every quest on elite during every life (less than 4k favor iirc, giving 1000 TP), they would only break even with the true hearts if they bought them on 25% sale, or less.

[Desteria]

I do kinda think if you actuyl manage to tr enough for competionest it shoudl be a free free liek the passive PL's but dont care much either way asi never plan to have it.

Of the various other things you listed the only one i agre ewith is maby the renown one your character is very legondary at this point it kinda makes sense and hey anythign that adds to guild renown for workign hard is cool in my book.

[Kesthely]

First of all, after reading this topic i went from intrested to amused, down to annoyed and back to intrested again.
What i´ve gathered as a genuine concern is that Turbine might have to look at implementing some way to save your +3 or +4 tomes for when a new class comes out.

In respect to that, how about a heart of the wood +5 that you can only buy if you had the completionist feat.

What would that do in my eyes?
First it would flag your char in the next life(s) to buy hearth of the wood +5's
second it would allow the characters that had completionist before the new class is implemented to keep one +4 tome.

Yes you would have to pay for an more expensive heart of the wood with turbine points, yes you would still have to do the extra 2 lives but at least you would keep your rare tome for your "final" build

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Also they probably didn't realise how much of a grind it will be to get it back. Assuming you are at your final build, with all the past life feats you wanted, and that a new class gives you a useless past life feat, any new class will mean almost 9million exp (and 2k+ Turbine points or 40 epic tokens) for zero gain.

Again, I'm saying this as someone who is struggling through TR1 (I can only play 2 hrs/night): I think if someone has put that much time, effort (and money) and not getting the completionist feat for free is borderline insulting. All the hours, the grind, the true hearts (and possibly dozens of +20% XP pots), IMO, should be enough to deserve that feat as "granted" or "inherent". I hope, for your completionists sake, that Turbine considers this for future tweaking.

[Ravoc-DDO]

1) no
2) yes
3) yes

[MissMoogle]

Easy killer... I appreciate your impasioned repsonse, be we can leave the shouting and insults behind please. Thank you.

My second TR that is now cap'd was already cheat mode. The ideas are to come up with small incremental improvements to encourage people to play more.


If I came across as being insulting sorry. But your ideas are anything but small..People grind out 2 months of raiding for some of what your asking for and even then they dont get the gear they had hoped for :(



Maybe you can help me on this one. What do you think the value of completionist is?

To me, the value in completionist has nothing to do with winning or having something someone else does not. It is the ability to improve my character. When you say why bother if everyone gets it, it sounds like you want it to be exclusive so you will be special. I'm hoping I have read you wrong.

For me, I'm not even going to go to completionist under the current system. There is not enough incentive. My build (the only one I play enough to consider that many TRs) does not have the extra feat available to take the completionist feat. My plan is to take some monk and fighter past lives for attack and damage bonus and stop.

If, there were some other bonuses along the way, I might do a few more. And, if I could take the feat without losing one I already have, I might do a few more.


Considering the amount of xp in game I dont think such a request is even remotely warranted. Completionist isnt for everyone and thats what makes it so appealing..to me anyways. Am i doing this for winner status? hah thats funny but no. I am doing this to make my toon stronger and for a sense of accomplishment. Giving a handout not only takes away from what people have already accomplished along this journey but takes away from what it will mean once we acquire it. And heck yea it will be nice to feel special when people compliment you on finally achieving your goal.. it should always feel that way no? It wouldnt feel as good with a handicap is all. :p






I have no issue with your list of things you would like to see here in this post or in the other one you posted.

My issue, is that you seem to want to shut down any discussion of ideas that are not your own because you are fearful that it will prevent your ideas from being heard.

Also, as I've worked my way to the bottom of your post, I've yet to see where you explain how the ideas are overpowered. The only one you disagreed with was the xp and you simply dismissed the others as distractions rather than for being overpowered.

So, tell me again, the problem here...
Well the feat gives +2 to all stats and +2 to each skill

You are asking for
a)10% stacking xp
b)3 extra ability points
c)3 extra skill points
d)3 extra AP points

Ummm this incredibly overpowered, the reason I didn't go into it was because i thought it was obvious.. But this is 1.5 x more powerful than the actual feat ability wise. your +3 skill points equates to 60 skill points by level 20. And 3 ap would help a few builds, not to mention the xp bonus you get making acquiring these things that much easier. I'm sorry if it seems like im just bashing every single post that isn't my goal at all. I'm simply trying to point out what is and isnt needed. Your current systems not only would get a few non-tring people agitated but make devs less likely to take this thread seriously.



So because it doesn't help all builds it should not be considered?



How would +1 to +3 skill points per level (based on your system) without the wasted points into Int not help any build?


Again, it sounds like because this isn't the top of your priority list, we should not even consider it. Help me understand your real point here, please.


Along with extra AP? when is extra not good ? But you are right this or the extra xp bonus or the extra skill points or ability points aren't on my priority list. If it came across in any previous post that i was personally attacking you or your ideas I am truly sorry. The thing is I really want the devs to actually consider the real priorities which are:

a)completionist being a passive feat
b) having insanely rare +3 and +4 tomes carry over on forced TR

I don't want to ask for anything extra for fear of them not taking these core requests seriously. You've done two TR correct? And your frustrated with how much work goes into such little gain; I'm assuming. Now multiply what you've done by 5 and then you might have an idea what is in store for you. And thats not even taking into account the tomes you have to grind and then get lucky enough to see one and then roll against the 7 or more people that may want that tome.. I don't think those who have completionist or are close want anything extra, we just want our time and more importantly our effort to simply be recognized and awarded with these few simple requests..


-Terrahhdactyl

[voodoogroves]

Alright, I'm going to go off the farm.

How about a COMPLETIONIST PRE?

Counts as, whatever class. Stack on whatever benefits you want on using the PRE mechanic. It's a tradeoff, but the benefits could be pretty good, right?

[MissMoogle]

Well, you seem to be coming off as someone who intimitely understands what completionists desire for their builds. I assure you that I would very much like an additional skill every level even as a pure fighter- it is something that indirectly improves the feat a bit- while keeping the power gap with non-completionists small.

And now that you, I'm assuming a non-completionist, are giving it little value in your post- this makes my point quite well.

Your right I am a non completionist only on my 10th life :p

And I'm sorry again if it came off as me seeing Durnak's ideas as "useless" Of course they would be nice. But given the option of 2 things to choose on this list

a)+1 to skill per level
b)passive completionist feat
c)3/4 tomes carrying over

I bet all my gear choice "A" wouldn't even be considered.

I think as a community we should pick our battles carefully..and fighting for any of Drunaks requests seems like it will only hurt this cause. Alot of people I know HATE TRing, and Durnaks system would only cause Non Tr loving people to rage against not only his but MAYBE even the core requests. I'm not TOTALLY apposed to Durnak's ideas I just think we should get whats important accomplished first and foremost then think about Durnak's ideas.

[Cetus]

Your right I am a non completionist only on my 10th life :p

And I'm sorry again if it came off as me seeing Durnak's ideas as "useless" Of course they would be nice. But given the option of 2 things to choose on this list

a)+1 to skill per level
b)passive completionist feat
c)3/4 tomes carrying over

I bet all my gear choice "A" wouldn't even be considered.

I think as a community we should pick our battles carefully..and fighting for any of Drunaks requests seems like it will only hurt this cause. Alot of people I know HATE TRing, and Durnaks system would only cause Non Tr loving people to rage against not only his but MAYBE even the core requests. I'm not TOTALLY apposed to Durnak's ideas I just think we should get whats important accomplished first and foremost then think about Durnak's ideas.

Well, hold on. These are all suggestions that do not compete with one another. I have provided suggestions that fit a criteria I initially outlined in my first post; none of them were prioritized.

If you find it worthwhile to TR 12+ times to acquire +2 to all stats and skills (which translates to +3 skills) then chances are you will also be satisfied with an additional skill per level off of the extra 2 intel; while your non-completionist groupmates don't feel incredibly overpowered.

Now, if you would ask me to prioritize my suggestions, I would agree with you- but one thing that everyone posting here can agree on, is that the feat needs some sort of improvement. The suggestions I provided work on doing that, they are not listed in any order and they certainly aren't answers.

[MissMoogle]

heck yea id be satisfied with 20 extra skill points. But i really wish a dev would reply on this thread

[Crazyfruit]

Let's be honest here with all the chips on the table. The best way to get Turbine points is to level up characters. I get no Turbine Points when I play the end game non at all. All the completionists levelling up their characters get tons and tons of Turbine Points such that they play the game for free and they get all the extra fun toys you can buy from the store. If you get your extra power up for completionist I should get 25 Turbine Points per epic token earned.

My lives end at 1700 to 2600 favor. I impulse buy some TR hearts though @ $15, so it ends up in the positive for turbine :)

The stuff I bought partially with free TP [Cosmetic Shields x2, Bank slots x4, Hireling Folders, Large Cookie Jar & Assault on Stormreach] aren't things I'd have spent money on anyways if not for TRing... and then there's the xp pots...

On the other hand, I do have a friend who's sitting on 5k TP (without many packs) from like a dozen TR's, and only spent $5 on the game.

[protokon]

/not signed

The only thing Turbine should change after the 2nd TR is lower the xp needed to cap. So once you've attained 36 pt build if you wanna get another past life the xp needed to cap would be around 3.5 mil.

I agree with Teth. Star while your proposals are great concepts, they would overpower TR's too much.

There are three changes I think they should make:
1. lessen the double TR grind down to 3.5 million or so
2. make the completionist feat free.
3. make tomes eaten in past lives either carry over, or give them back in the inventory upon reincarnation.

[ChildrenofBodom]

I'm gonna say HELL no to +1 build point per TR....that is just ridiculous, it would completely screw things up for casual players.

Everything else is gravy.

[Cetus]

heck yea id be satisfied with 20 extra skill points. But i really wish a dev would reply on this thread

Heh, I've been hoping and asking for a dev response for months on this topic...

[airbornerangers]

first let me say, star and nanni are crazy good at levelin up tr's! cet, you my friend are not far behind.
on life 8 i agree with renown should increase for a tr and that completionist should be a given feat once you have capped a character in each class!!!

[redoubt]

I've had an idea for the naysayers about +1 build point/past life (Though I'd be perfectly happy with free completionist feat and +5%xp/TR bonus).

Pick a 36pt build. All I need to see is the class breakdown and stat distribution. Now right below, show the effect of an extra 10 build points (TR 12). List all the differences that are relevant to your build (don't bother putting in +2 to heal skill for example). Now try again with 20 extra past lives. Again list the differences. And then maybe you can convince me if it is overpowered for the investment. I'm truthfully interested in this as I admit I might be blinded to the effects of +1 build pt/TR since they would have very little effect on my preferred end build. I'm hoping this little excercise will show objectively if it is an overpowered effect or not.

/edit snip

Just for fun I'll even do the extreme:
20 Rogue (67pt Build --max of 33 past lives, 140+mill xp more than a 36pt build)

18 Str
16 Dex
18 Con
16 Int
13 Wis
16 Cha

Changes (from a 36pt build)
+1 to hit
+1 Damage
+1 reflex save
+1 AC
+40 HP
+2 Fort Save
+1 Skill point per level
+1 disable/search
+2 will save
+1 UMD

My conclusion: On this 20 rogue, even 20 extra build points are barely noticeable, other than the hitpoints.

Did you folks who are saying a couple extra build points is way overpowered read this or do the math yourselves?

I was actually suprised the difference wasn't more. And this is with 31 extra build points... :eek:

[Snormal]

With 67 build points you could build a very nice paladin. I would like for the exp required to cap to be changed to a straight 50% extra on TR1, and 100% extra on TR2+, instead of 5/10% per level. That would both lower the xp required to cap a TR2 marginally, and also make it less late-game heavy (this is the biggest problem to me, being a partially-free player who doesn't own all the content).

[david_p_hagan]

Absolutely agree on the completionist being free.

In addition, I think they should up the ante on that a little bit. Should you go through and TR twice from each class, you get a Double Completionist feat instead which gives +3 to all stats and skills. TR 3 times from each class and it becomes Triple Completionist which gives +4 to all stats and skills.

Completionists should also get different graphics on their character name maybe a medal instead of wings. Perhaps different color name.

Also, if you do manage to get Triple Completionist, you get a free trip to where the game is made and you get to provide the narration for the next adventure pack. That would be cool.

[Templarion]

TRs are breaking the game. Remove the whole concept of TRs!!!111!!

Ok, some sarcasm there but there is some truth behind that foolish statement... I really don't know what should be done but adding bonuses and lowering experience required doesn't sound good. Adding bonuses and increasing experience required would only increase the boredom. That doesn't sound good either.

[Carpone]

3) Grant a +5% guild renown bonus per past life

This one has almost ZERO effect in quests, but would help get more prestige for your guild. Since a TR2+ is legendary, they should be rewarded with even more guild renown than mere adventurers. The further they go on the path of legends, the more renown they should command.
I love this idea. Thumbs up!

[Hutoth]

I've had an idea for the naysayers about +1 build point/past life (Though I'd be perfectly happy with free completionist feat and +5%xp/TR bonus).

Pick a 36pt build. All I need to see is the class breakdown and stat distribution. Now right below, show the effect of an extra 10 build points (TR 12). List all the differences that are relevant to your build (don't bother putting in +2 to heal skill for example). Now try again with 20 extra past lives. Again list the differences. And then maybe you can convince me if it is overpowered for the investment. I'm truthfully interested in this as I admit I might be blinded to the effects of +1 build pt/TR since they would have very little effect on my preferred end build. I'm hoping this little excercise will show objectively if it is an overpowered effect or not.

I'll start:

20 rogue (36pt build)
16 Str
15 Dex
14 Con
14 Int
08 Wis
14 Cha

20 rogue (46pt build -- 43.78mill xp more than a 36pt)
18 Str
15 Dex
16 Con
14 Int
08 Wis
14 Cha

Changes (compared to 36pt build)
+1 to hit
+1 damage
+20 HP
+1 Fort save

20 Rogue (56pt build -- 87.56mill exp more than a 36pt build)
18 Str
15 Dex
18 Con
16 Int
08 Wis
14 Cha

Changes (compared to 36pt build)
+1 to hit
+1 damage
+40 HP
+2 fort save
+1 skill point per level
+1 disable, search

Just for fun I'll even do the extreme:
20 Rogue (67pt Build --max of 33 past lives, 140+mill xp more than a 36pt build)

18 Str
16 Dex
18 Con
16 Int
13 Wis
16 Cha

Changes (from a 36pt build)
+1 to hit
+1 Damage
+1 reflex save
+1 AC
+40 HP
+2 Fort Save
+1 Skill point per level
+1 disable/search
+2 will save
+1 UMD

My conclusion: On this 20 rogue, even 20 extra build points are barely noticeable, other than the hitpoints.

This makes it pretty clear that +1 build point per life beyond TR2 would not be overpowered.

[Cetus]

This makes it pretty clear that +1 build point per life beyond TR2 would not be overpowered.

Agreed

[QuantumFX]

Running epic quests over, and over, and over? That's not gaming, that's compulsion.

Fixed. One man’s stupidity is another man’s “great gaming experience”. :)

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

With 67 build points you could build a very nice paladin.

Don't even get me started how hard is to build and play a paly effectively against non-evil-outsiders or undead. GTWF Dual Lightning II 'peshes, bloodstone, madstoned, Zeal, DMIII puts you below an average and undergeared pure Kensai fighter.

/sigh

[vVAnjilaVv]

Right now after a TRx2 ur getting one thing per cap...a free past life feat......hardly worth it.

More action and skill points and access to more powerful items/weapons would be a nice add in.....the prior would have to have some kind of limit on it tho

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Right now after a TRx2 ur getting one thing per cap...a free past life feat......hardly worth it.

More action and skill points and access to more powerful items/weapons would be a nice add in.....the prior would have to have some kind of limit on it tho

Items and weaps are definitely not an issue at all. With Icy Burst recipes you can have all your twink gear more overpowered that it already is. And at lvl11, GS items, level12 GS weaps. What more overpower you want? However, extra inherent abilities and free completionist feat is a fair reward to those who put the time and effort to accomplish that without adding unbalancing items or weaps

[vVAnjilaVv]

Items and weaps are definitely not an issue at all. With Icy Burst recipes you can have all your twink gear more overpowered that it already is. And at lvl11, GS items, level12 GS weaps. What more overpower you want? However, extra inherent abilities and free completionist feat is a fair reward to those who put the time and effort to accomplish that without adding unbalancing items or weaps

Fine...leave it how it is now, but lower the amount of XP needed.

As it is now you get 4 extra build points for practically free when you go from 28pt to 32 point.....when I say free I mean it does not cost you additional XP.

For the stacking free past life feat, the purchasable feat which is a tight fit on a lot of feat starved classes and the 4 additional build points from 32 to 36 pt build...the XP price is way to steep IMO.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Fine...leave it how it is now, but lower the amount of XP needed.


100% agree. I think the XP penalty should go to zero after TR2. (i.e. every TR after that should only require 1,900,000 XP) since very little else is gained in those lives at 4.3 Mill XP each.

[Cyr]

I agree with Star the rewards for past lives 3+ are lower then they should be.

However, the main issue with TR's remains the basic design element of how they level. As long as XP is used as the criteria to level TR's and no bonus XP is given for higher level questing the incentives will remain to do easy quests over and over again on TR's leading to a boring and unsatisfying gaming experience.

Lowering the TR xp to cap based upon past lives does not address the basic problem.

TR's are better then normal toons. They should have strong incentives, or requirements, to run harder content for their level. Instead they have opposite incentive. Grinding easy junk does not equal challenge in any way shape or form.

So basically I'm weighing in that any bonus for TR lives 3+ should be decoupled from the grind factor they go through because the grind doesn't make sense for the first two past lives either. Instead any bonus's should directly make your toon more powerful. There are lots of ways to do this from improving individual past life feats, creating new racial past life feats, giving more AP, more build points, more skill points, and the list goes on to possibilities.

I think it is valid to look at the comparitive advantage that bumping your 3rd + stat entails also as this favors certain builds far more then others. I would prefer any bonus to character power be more generally useful to all builds or useful more specialized bonus's become spread out throughout the TR lives. Perhaps a rotating set of bonuses like the following for example...

TR 3 - +1 build point
TR 4- +1 Skill point every five levels
TR 5 - +2 AP (start with 2 and go to 82)
TR 6- same as TR 3 and so forth...

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

snip

TR 3 - +1 build point
TR 4- +1 Skill point every five levels
TR 5 - +2 AP (start with 2 and go to 82)
TR 6- same as TR 3 and so forth...

How about allowing TR to pick racial and class enhancements from past lives?

[Cyr]

How about allowing TR to pick racial and class enhancements from past lives?

I had a suggestion like this in the past, but it was a while ago.

If I remember correctly it was something like for every TR of a particular race/class your effective level was one level higher for purposes of qualifying for enhancements.

This of course would encourage single class TR's beyond the first 3 much more strongly then it does currently (as in not at all).

[Riggs]

The ratio of xp needed to what you get is indeed messed up.

However as stated power creep becomes an issue - esp adding in bonus stats, I saw that in another game that added in a reincarnation system.

The other side would be to lower the xp needed to TR by a fair bit, and yeah make the completionist feat free. (In fact you should also get a bonus feat for 11 TRs)

But as said - D&D was not about 'Get to the cap, then start all over'. It was a patchwork system to give people something to do at cap rather than get bored running the same half dozen quests 50000 times.

Make the xp costs lower - and add more exciting things to do at 20 that are not just about grinding out the epic scroll/seal/shard hunt.

And passive past life bonuses should maybe be a bit better, not a ton, to avoid power creep, but a bit.

[Thrudh]

I disagree OP. The same can be said for end game powergaming that after putting in the same amount of time as someone trring the first two times they gain the most gear, but after that the gain is less and less. I can put 500 hours into a character's gear, but the first 100 hours I see by far the most gain and over the last 400 hours there is itteratively less and less gain. By your proposal gear powergamers should also see greater benefit for those last 400 hours as well.

This is a very good point...

I can outfit a character to 90% effectiveness fairly easily, and he still contributes significantly in all groups... The power-gamers can go for that last 10%... but I don't have to...

TRing is the same way.... Right now, someone with zero TRs is still comparable to a 10+ TR... Add more linear bonuses to TRing and the 10+ TR will far out-class a non TR character..

[Thrudh]

However, I do think completionist should be a free feat.

[jkm]

I agree with Star the rewards for past lives 3+ are lower then they should be.

However, the main issue with TR's remains the basic design element of how they level. As long as XP is used as the criteria to level TR's and no bonus XP is given for higher level questing the incentives will remain to do easy quests over and over again on TR's leading to a boring and unsatisfying gaming experience.

Lowering the TR xp to cap based upon past lives does not address the basic problem.

TR's are better then normal toons. They should have strong incentives, or requirements, to run harder content for their level. Instead they have opposite incentive. Grinding easy junk does not equal challenge in any way shape or form.

So basically I'm weighing in that any bonus for TR lives 3+ should be decoupled from the grind factor they go through because the grind doesn't make sense for the first two past lives either. Instead any bonus's should directly make your toon more powerful. There are lots of ways to do this from improving individual past life feats, creating new racial past life feats, giving more AP, more build points, more skill points, and the list goes on to possibilities.

I think it is valid to look at the comparitive advantage that bumping your 3rd + stat entails also as this favors certain builds far more then others. I would prefer any bonus to character power be more generally useful to all builds or useful more specialized bonus's become spread out throughout the TR lives. Perhaps a rotating set of bonuses like the following for example...

TR 3 - +1 build point
TR 4- +1 Skill point every five levels
TR 5 - +2 AP (start with 2 and go to 82)
TR 6- same as TR 3 and so forth...

the problem is that you guys are trying to suggest things to improve a system that has a serious design flaw in its implementation. the initial passive past life feats were a good idea. the problem is the purchaseable feats - these shouldn't have ever been made feats because they favor 2 classes more than any other - wizard and fighter.

what you need to do is make the system viable for everyone regardless of whether they are going for completionist or not. the way to do this is by using one of your game system features that is balanced for every class ie action points. every level 20 character regardless of composition gets 80 action points. by adding 1 per past life, you allow them to further differentiate their character from cookie cutter builds.

by putting the purchaseable feats into tiered enhancements, you allow people the choice of either using APs to purchase additional power in their final class or to use the purchaseable enhancements.

[ryingar]

I like some of these suggestions.

- Free feat upon completion
- Carry over tomes from past lives

These two are not really open to debate. They are more akin to oversights than anything else.

To make Lives 3-11 more benificial can take many forms.

Some of which have been mentioned in earlier posts. One that did not get mentioned (please point it out if I missed it) was to address that some passive past life feats are subpar.
Ftr - Mnk - Pali - Wiz - Fvs - Rng - Sorc - Are nice as they are, I notice each one per life.

Barb - Clr - Could be tweaked a bit - I notice the hp in the first few lvls and after that not much of a bonus, maybe if it was more like a tougness feat(that might be too much though) or a stacking 1DR/-. Clr nice if you go back to clr but not useful beyond a clr TR

Rog - Bard - Are you kidding me? bonuses to specific saves = fail - I do not notice these at all - I think that the Devs phoned these two in. The bonus to enchament dc would should have been the passive not the lvl3 feat.

What I'm getting at is that if the passive feats were more benificial than we would not be disscusing it here, with the exception of the loss of tomes and the loss of the comp feat. But finding a way to add to a toon without overpowering is as we all know a very delicate balancing act.

[Thrudh]

This makes it pretty clear that +1 build point per life beyond TR2 would not be overpowered.

That's a pure rogue...

Now do it on a paladin... who now doesn't have to make any stat choices anymore... He can max out STR, CON, and CHA (for maximum divine might), oh AND get Dex high enough to use TWF...

Now you don't have to choose between melee FvS or casting FvS, you can max out both!

I'm sure there's all kinds of interesting multi-class builds one could do with 67 build points.

I cannot believe you guys are actually arguing, "oh 31 extra build points is no big deal..."

There is NO way the devs will ever implement something like that... You need to focus your attention on battles you can win.

[Cetus]

That's a pure rogue...

Now do it on a paladin... who now doesn't have to make any stat choices anymore... He can max out STR, CON, and CHA (for maximum divine might), oh AND get Dex high enough to use TWF...

Now you don't have to choose between melee FvS or casting FvS, you can max out both!

I'm sure there's all kinds of interesting multi-class builds one could do with 67 build points.

I cannot believe you guys are actually arguing, "oh 31 extra build points is no big deal..."

There is NO way the devs will ever implement something like that... You need to focus your attention on battles you can win.


One battle that I wish we could win is, at the very least, to make the dang feat free!

[Lithic]

That's a pure rogue...

Now do it on a paladin... who now doesn't have to make any stat choices anymore... He can max out STR, CON, and CHA (for maximum divine might), oh AND get Dex high enough to use TWF...

Now you don't have to choose between melee FvS or casting FvS, you can max out both!

I'm sure there's all kinds of interesting multi-class builds one could do with 67 build points.

I cannot believe you guys are actually arguing, "oh 31 extra build points is no big deal..."

There is NO way the devs will ever implement something like that... You need to focus your attention on battles you can win.

Ideally you would have done it yourself since I am far from a paladin expert, but heres my breakdown.

36pter 20 paladin with 2wf:
16 Str
15 Dex
14 Con
10 Int
08 Wis
16 Cha

20 paladin, 2wf, 12 past lives (46pt build, 44mill exp more)
18 Str
15 Dex
14 Con
08 Int
08 Wis
18 Cha

Changes from a 36pter:
+1 to hit
+1 damage
-1 skill pt/level
+1 saves
+1 UMD
+1 turn
+1 step divine might

20 paladin, 2wf, 56pter (20 extra past lives, 90mill exp more)

18 Str
15 Dex
18 Con
08 Int
08 Wis
18 Cha

Changes from a 36pter:
+1 to hit
+1 damage
+40 HP at lvl 20
+2 fort save
-1 skill pt/level
+1 saves from divine grace
+1 UMD
+1 turn
+1 step divine might

67 pter 20 paladin with 2wf (33 past lives, over 140mill exp more)

18 Str
15 Dex
18 Con
13 Int
14 Wis
18 Cha

Differences with a 36pter:
+1 to hit
+1 damage
+40 HP at lvl 20
+2 fort save
+1 skill pt/level
qualifies for CE
+2 will save
+50? Spell points
+1 saves due to divine grace
+1 step divine might
+1 turn undead

I could be wrong, but even the extreme isn't so extreme. Its much less than the difference between an epic geared paladin and one with no gear better than greensteel. And epic stuff takes much less time to get than 33 past lives.

I'd invite you to do the FvS one so that not all examples in this thread have my own bias for builds. I'd imagine though that it would be about the same. +1 to hit/damage and +2 DC (or +2 hit/damage, +1DC), a few more HP and SP, and maybe some skill points.

[DelScorcho]

I don't care about the renown benefit. It really doesn't matter. My main tr has like 450,000 more guild renown than anyone else in my guild, and he's only on life 5. I would like Turbine to institute a racial completionist benefit. There are 8 races and 11 classes. Hitting those last three lives wouldn't be that much more difficult than hitting all 8 races but it presently incurs no benefit.

[Cetus]

I don't care about the renown benefit. It really doesn't matter. My main tr has like 450,000 more guild renown than anyone else in my guild, and he's only on life 5. I would like Turbine to institute a racial completionist benefit. There are 8 races and 11 classes. Hitting those last three lives wouldn't be that much more difficult than hitting all 8 races but it presently incurs no benefit.

Racial past lives would be a great indirect benefit to the TR system. You get some additional passive bonuses dpending on your races; also, stackable up to 3 times.

[Lithic]

Racial past lives would be a great indirect benefit to the TR system. You get some additional passive bonuses dpending on your races; also, stackable up to 3 times.

I think I'd delete and quit rather than face the prospect of 3 lives as a halfling or dwarf heh.

[Templarion]

<delete this>

[Cyr]

the problem is that you guys are trying to suggest things to improve a system that has a serious design flaw in its implementation. the initial passive past life feats were a good idea. the problem is the purchaseable feats - these shouldn't have ever been made feats because they favor 2 classes more than any other - wizard and fighter.

what you need to do is make the system viable for everyone regardless of whether they are going for completionist or not. the way to do this is by using one of your game system features that is balanced for every class ie action points. every level 20 character regardless of composition gets 80 action points. by adding 1 per past life, you allow them to further differentiate their character from cookie cutter builds.

by putting the purchaseable feats into tiered enhancements, you allow people the choice of either using APs to purchase additional power in their final class or to use the purchaseable enhancements.

I completely agree that the puchasable past life feats are vastly better for fighter/wizard base builds then others and this is bad design. Making them tiered enhancements with more AP would certainly improve this some.

[Cetus]

I completely agree that the puchasable past life feats are vastly better for fighter/wizard base builds then others and this is bad design. Making them tiered enhancements with more AP would certainly improve this some.

Well, although this idea has potential- not every build is equally loose on ap's either. So the same argument may apply depending on the build you'd consider incorporating past lives into.

[jkm]

Well, although this idea has potential- not every build is equally loose on ap's either. So the same argument may apply depending on the build you'd consider incorporating past lives into.

that's the whole point of adding an extra action point per past life. it makes past life purchaseable feats a choice. if you don't like them, but want to use the APs on class enhancements you have a CHOICE.

on life 2, you get 81 APs instead of 80. life 3, 82 (up to 3 APs per class).

[SardaofChaos]

that's the whole point of adding an extra action point per past life. it makes past life purchaseable feats a choice. if you don't like them, but want to use the APs on class enhancements you have a CHOICE.

on life 2, you get 81 APs instead of 80. life 3, 82 (up to 3 APs per class).

And I would assume the past life enhancements would then cost 1 AP as well, yes? Seems like the best way to implement this system would be to make the free past life feats give you 1 AP for each one you have, stackable up to 3 times each because the feats themselves are. This would mean you couldn't just keep TRing as say, a sorc and keep getting APs.

[Meetch1972]

Ability point scaling has mentioned +1 this +1 that, X hps, but remember the feats that can be unlocked (as Thrudh said, the pally can max charisma for full divine goodness, get a bunch of these bonuses AND get full TWF - something that even a 36 point build must make sizeable sacrifices for). Those extra points will make some currently only-a-dream builds much more viable because of all the minimum prereqs that can suddenly be met.

Personally, after thinking about it what I'd like is at the very least:

After TR 2 you get to keep all your +3 tomes and
After TR 3 (or heck, even 4 or 5 for a little incentive) you get to keep all your +4 tomes.
After TR 8 you might be able to find a +5 tome, and you get to keep it.

It's not much, but something that encourages you to TR just a couple more times... and then completionist becomes within range.

[knockcocker]

Having just joined the TR gang (on TR2, TR1 doesn't count ;) ). I'd say that the XP demands are far, far too steep
for the rewards. You have to be seriously hardcore to go beyond TR2 and I think that's bad. It should be more
accessible for a wider demographic of players. Due to the time investment, it's just something that widens the
power gulf between the 'hardcore' players and more casual players. So, rather than increase the rewards for
TR2+ (and widen the power gap further), I'd advocate reducing the XP requirements to make it more accessible
to all. This way you can still play your favourite character past 'cap' without having to quit your job and leave
your family ;). I don't see why the XP requirements need to be any different between lives. 11x 1.9mil for
completionist is still a pretty significant time investment for the vast majority of the player base. Completionist
doesn't interest me but I'd love to have 3*Sorc and 3* Wiz pastlives for my current Sorc. That's never going to
happen in the current system. It took me 3 months to get through TR1 - I had to take 6 weeks off midway through
to recover from the tedium

[Dendrix]

One additional enhancement point per TR past your 2nd TR, each point to be awarded once per level past 2 as you level up.

i.e. on your 5th TR you gain an additional enhancement point at levels 3, 4, and 5

this kind of gradual power increase reflects DDO's game philosophy

[Wren666]

/signed on the OP

[Monkey_Archer]

I would prefer a different approach to encouraging TRs...

1) The powergain from completionist is fine as it is. 67 point builds are never going to happen :rolleyes:

2) Instead of lessening the xp required, I'd rather change which levels you acquire it. Currently the XP for double TR is heavily backend loaded, and with relatively few quests at end game, this usually means skipping half of the low-mid level quests in the game and grinding the endgame quests ad nauseam.

Right now it takes 2'305'000 xp (over half of total xp required) to get from level 15-20. I would reallocate about 500-1000k of that xp to the first 15 levels. This would encourage people to run all quests in the game (instead of just the high xp ones in the mid level range) and make the last 5 levels of a TR a lot more enjoyable, and less grindy.

3) I think the completionist feat should not deactivate when new classes are added, but rather just become unavailable. Similar to grandfathered crit rage...

[jkm]

And I would assume the past life enhancements would then cost 1 AP as well, yes? Seems like the best way to implement this system would be to make the free past life feats give you 1 AP for each one you have, stackable up to 3 times each because the feats themselves are. This would mean you couldn't just keep TRing as say, a sorc and keep getting APs.

if it were me, the APs would be based on the relative power of the feat. I'd also consider the concept of chaining enhancement lines as well as leaving stand alones.

for example, wizard past life feat. the magic missiles aren't that big of a deal, but the +1 to dcs is pretty big (since its the equivalent of +2 caster stat or 7 feats).

so i'd probably split them as such

Wizard Past Life Magic Missile 1 -> 1 AP
Wizard Past Life Extra DC -> 2 AP

then chaining some lines together like so
Wizard Past Life Magic Missile 1 -> 1 AP 1d4 + 1
Wizard Past Life Magic Missile 2 -> 2 AP 2d4 + 1

[Cyr]

Since we are discussing a variety of options here for enhancing past lives here are some other ideas in no particular order...

Purchasable past live feats for a class have an alternate AP cost.

Racial passive and purchasable past life feats.

More passive and purchasable past life feats...you only get one passive per past life that you chose on the next TR of the toon (stacking as other passive past live feats do upto 3 times making it possible to get a benefit from a TR over 3 times of the same class). Also this could be a perfect way to put in passive class past life feats that are generally useful or more specialized.

Player choosen options for extra past live bonuses after TR2 (pick one at time of TR)...
* +1 AP Total
* +1 Skill Point/5 Levels
* +1 Build Point
* +1 to a specific saving throw
* +1 effective level for purposes of purchasing enhancements for your past life class and race
* +25 Spell Points
* +5 HP
* One extra spell slot (starting as a first level slot and going up for each time chosen)
* One free feat slot only usable to purchase past life feats

Carry through XP...on TR lives any xp you gain at cap is saved and will go towards your next past life xp requirements. This xp is applied across the level range to reduce the xp per level required by the same percentage per level. Epic quests would of course have to be given xp for this to work. (The idea here is that challenge >> easy grinding).

The Challenge Bonus...TR lives have no cap on the xp they can store or the max level content they can run. They gain additional XP for completing content above the max level member in the party of +20% per level below the quest level. Again another bonus to largely encourage playing something challenging over something grindy.

The done it all bonus...If you have elite favor on every quest of the current level on your TR you can talk to the trainer and get enough xp to get to the next level exactly. Epics would count as level 19 content for these purposes as would any other level 20+ quests (of course TR's should be able to enter epics below level 20). Again challenge over grind.

[SardaofChaos]

The done it all bonus...If you have elite favor on every quest of the current level and all the previous levelson your TR you can talk to the trainer and get enough xp to get to the next level exactly. Epics would count as level 19 content for these purposes as would any other level 20+ quests (of course TR's should be able to enter epics below level 20). Again challenge over grind.

Otherwise this would make it too easy if this mechanic was solely relied on for leveling purposes and no quests were repeated, either before doing elite or otherwise.

[ryingar]

Since we are discussing a variety of options here for enhancing past lives here are some other ideas in no particular order...

Purchasable past live feats for a class have an alternate AP cost.

Racial passive and purchasable past life feats.

More passive and purchasable past life feats...you only get one passive per past life that you chose on the next TR of the toon (stacking as other passive past live feats do upto 3 times making it possible to get a benefit from a TR over 3 times of the same class). Also this could be a perfect way to put in passive class past life feats that are generally useful or more specialized.

Player choosen options for extra past live bonuses after TR2 (pick one at time of TR)...
* +1 AP Total
* +1 Skill Point/5 Levels
* +1 Build Point
* +1 to a specific saving throw
* +1 effective level for purposes of purchasing enhancements for your past life class and race
* +25 Spell Points
* +5 HP
* One extra spell slot (starting as a first level slot and going up for each time chosen)
* One free feat slot only usable to purchase past life feats

Carry through XP...on TR lives any xp you gain at cap is saved and will go towards your next past life xp requirements. This xp is applied across the level range to reduce the xp per level required by the same percentage per level. Epic quests would of course have to be given xp for this to work. (The idea here is that challenge >> easy grinding).

The Challenge Bonus...TR lives have no cap on the xp they can store or the max level content they can run. They gain additional XP for completing content above the max level member in the party of +20% per level below the quest level. Again another bonus to largely encourage playing something challenging over something grindy.

The done it all bonus...If you have elite favor on every quest of the current level on your TR you can talk to the trainer and get enough xp to get to the next level exactly. Epics would count as level 19 content for these purposes as would any other level 20+ quests (of course TR's should be able to enter epics below level 20). Again challenge over grind.

Very interesting ideas... +1

[JOTMON]

All good ideas.

And if you will permit me to add my own...

Although I will never have a completionist, please make the Completionist feat a FREE feat. It's a heck of a lot of time invested, lets give these folks something to show for it.

(And as a side note...did you know on Argo when people discuss TR levelling strategy the phrase "Well when Star is doing it..." often comes up?)

Completionist needs to be changed to be a freely earned feat.
-seriously TR that many times then have to buy completionist.. boo.....

Competionist 2 should grant something like all first tier purchasable feats from all the past lives.

And 3x Completionist ... something uber.....

[airbornerangers]

i am with star on the racial benifits, i personally dont like wf, and altho i only have 9 past lifes, i will not be making a wf on any of the remainin lifes>

i do agree with earlier poster, some battles cant be won, but if arguing them makes the completionist feat free as a feat for all of us, then argue away

[Theolin]

I would like complete 3 lives as a class & get the purchasable feat for free, this way feat starved classes have a chance to actually take it .... would only require 3TRs of that class, so on #4 you can use it regardless.

[assamite]

/signed Lith
Tring does need extra umph

[knightgf]

I think the biggest issue that may be at stake here may not be the current TR system, but rather, how TR will behave in the future if epic levels is to be released. Personally, if epic levels gets a green light from Turbine to be released, here is how I believe it should behave:

When you reach level 20, you will need to make a decision between TR'ing at that level or continuing on to become a epic character. While you can change your mind if you decide you want to TR at level 20 and suddenly decide to advance to epic, once you decide to advance to epic levels instead, it cannot be reversed. Period. No if's, and's or buts. It's a very important decision you have to make, and if you decide to advance your character to epic levels and change your mind, well...sorry, no redo's here.

However, in order to give this decision power, there must be incentive for both 'truly' capping the character and TR'ing at level 20. The benefit for TR'ing at level 20 should obviously be speed in gaining more class points. While I have a few suggestions, I cannot focus on just one, so here are some of the benefits I thought of to give players incentive to 'truly' cap their characters at epic levels(Note that all benefits will not apply):



A free active past life feat at character creation. In addition to being able to have early access to past life feats, it is a free feat to take alongside whatever other feats you may wish to take at creation and later levels. It is purely beneficial.
A one time bonus of a additional 2 character build points on top of what you gain from TR'ing (If applicable). This will give players incentive to try and cap epic content for themselves, and decide whether or not it is worth playing epic at later levels.

Sure, I may have only had 2 suggestions, but they're definitely worth taking a look at if epic content will be considered at later levels. Never hurts to take a look.

[Cetus]

I think the biggest issue that may be at stake here may not be the current TR system, but rather, how TR will behave in the future if epic levels is to be released. Personally, if epic levels gets a green light from Turbine to be released, here is how I believe it should behave:

When you reach level 20, you will need to make a decision between TR'ing at that level or continuing on to become a epic character. While you can change your mind if you decide you want to TR at level 20 and suddenly decide to advance to epic, once you decide to advance to epic levels instead, it cannot be reversed. Period. No if's, and's or buts. It's a very important decision you have to make, and if you decide to advance your character to epic levels and change your mind, well...sorry, no redo's here.

However, in order to give this decision power, there must be incentive for both 'truly' capping the character and TR'ing at level 20. The benefit for TR'ing at level 20 should obviously be speed in gaining more class points. While I have a few suggestions, I cannot focus on just one, so here are some of the benefits I thought of to give players incentive to 'truly' cap their characters at epic levels(Note that all benefits will not apply):



A free active past life feat at character creation. In addition to being able to have early access to past life feats, it is a free feat to take alongside whatever other feats you may wish to take at creation and later levels. It is purely beneficial.
A one time bonus of a additional 2 character build points on top of what you gain from TR'ing (If applicable). This will give players incentive to try and cap epic content for themselves, and decide whether or not it is worth playing epic at later levels.

Sure, I may have only had 2 suggestions, but they're definitely worth taking a look at if epic content will be considered at later levels. Never hurts to take a look.

Well, the epic *xp* that we will require in order to progress through epic levels can simply be alloted to a completely seperate xp bar. You would have the standard 20 levels to go through to cap out a TR, then your epic progress bar would kick in upon hitting level 20 again. I think it would be in everyones best interests to keep epic level progression and TR'ing independant aspects of your character, you don't want to corner yourself in.

[Thucydides04]

What if completionist were a free feat granted upon capping the toon in his completionist life/lives. The feat will provide the following:

+12 build points where each build point is allocated 1 for 1, i.e. If you have a 17 base stat, the completionist feat will allow you to bump that stat to 18 while only costing 1 build point. Furthermore, no more than 3 (or 4) build points can be allocated to any given stat. This way builds that don't have any use for certain stats can reallocate those stat points in to more useful stats.

Allow the feat to maximize 1 skill as though it is a class skill. Thus, a capped 20 FvS could select intimidate as a class skill and it would be maxed to 23 ranks taken. This change would be in addition to the +2 ranks across the board.

Finally, as far as the xp goes, I think that after attaining 36 point builds, one should be able to split the difference required in xp between 34 and 36 point builds. Thus a 7.5% per level xp increase would be used. This method would bring the new xp cap down to ~3.8 mil xp.

Here is how the xp would be distributed:

2 5375
3 22625
4 59375
5 111375
6 180125
7 267125
8 373875
9 501875
10 652625
11 845125
12 1045875
13 1273875
14 1530625
15 1817625
16 2136375
17 2488375
18 2875125
19 3298125
20 3758875

[Serakan]

TRing is proof positive that this game resembles D&D less and less as time goes by.

That said, there's absolutely no reason why the TR exp penalties for 36 pt builds should be so high. Only a total loser irl actually wants to earn 4mil+ exp for each TR. 99.99% of the human population finds such repetition monotamous, boring and enervating.

Now some little fanboy can run along and go NOOOOO MUST earn 4mil+ exp the GODS/(devs) made it so! blah blah

Glad I "ragequit" (or maybe I just quit) on my 5th life. The TR system could have been a lot more interesting if the exp penalties weren't so obscenely high. Anybody that thinks grinding out those last couple levels for the 10th time is fun and normal needs a shrink. 18x whooo boy that's a LOT of therapy.

Like the devs originally said, the completionist feat is a joke. TRing and "epics" is DDOs idea of an end game, which is why this game has a cheesy end game. The typical rate of end game content expansion is once per year now in the gaming community. This game doesn't expand its end game much because its stuck using the same rules (d&d) that it also ignores whenever its convenient for their imaginations (enter TRing). The major selling point of DDO atm is its replayability for most of its players. The present TR system ruined a potential avenue of replayability because it made it so mind-numbingly boring only the most lame human beings I can imagine while stoned on hash could possibly consider this entertainment. If there was some Illuminati conspiracy to turn the world's youth into mindless zombies, then they would be wise to sponsor the TR system in DDO.

[azrael4h]

TRing is proof positive that this game resembles D&D less and less as time goes by.

That said, there's absolutely no reason why the TR exp penalties for 36 pt builds should be so high. Only a total loser irl actually wants to earn 4mil+ exp for each TR. 99.99% of the human population finds such repetition monotamous, boring and enervating.

Now some little fanboy can run along and go NOOOOO MUST earn 4mil+ exp the GODS/(devs) made it so! blah blah

Glad I "ragequit" (or maybe I just quit) on my 5th life. The TR system could have been a lot more interesting if the exp penalties weren't so obscenely high. Anybody that thinks grinding out those last couple levels for the 10th time is fun and normal needs a shrink. 18x whooo boy that's a LOT of therapy.

Like the devs originally said, the completionist feat is a joke. TRing and "epics" is DDOs idea of an end game, which is why this game has a cheesy end game. The typical rate of end game content expansion is once per year now in the gaming community. This game doesn't expand its end game much because its stuck using the same rules (d&d) that it also ignores whenever its convenient for their imaginations (enter TRing). The major selling point of DDO atm is its replayability for most of its players. The present TR system ruined a potential avenue of replayability because it made it so mind-numbingly boring only the most lame human beings I can imagine while stoned on hash could possibly consider this entertainment. If there was some Illuminati conspiracy to turn the world's youth into mindless zombies, then they would be wise to sponsor the TR system in DDO.

Tell us how you really feel there. Don't hold back.

[vVAnjilaVv]

TRing is proof positive that this game resembles D&D less and less as time goes by.

That said, there's absolutely no reason why the TR exp penalties for 36 pt builds should be so high. Only a total loser irl actually wants to earn 4mil+ exp for each TR. 99.99% of the human population finds such repetition monotamous, boring and enervating.

Now some little fanboy can run along and go NOOOOO MUST earn 4mil+ exp the GODS/(devs) made it so! blah blah

Glad I "ragequit" (or maybe I just quit) on my 5th life. The TR system could have been a lot more interesting if the exp penalties weren't so obscenely high. Anybody that thinks grinding out those last couple levels for the 10th time is fun and normal needs a shrink. 18x whooo boy that's a LOT of therapy.

Like the devs originally said, the completionist feat is a joke. TRing and "epics" is DDOs idea of an end game, which is why this game has a cheesy end game. The typical rate of end game content expansion is once per year now in the gaming community. This game doesn't expand its end game much because its stuck using the same rules (d&d) that it also ignores whenever its convenient for their imaginations (enter TRing). The major selling point of DDO atm is its replayability for most of its players. The present TR system ruined a potential avenue of replayability because it made it so mind-numbingly boring only the most lame human beings I can imagine while stoned on hash could possibly consider this entertainment. If there was some Illuminati conspiracy to turn the world's youth into mindless zombies, then they would be wise to sponsor the TR system in DDO.

Hmmmm...this seems a bit extreme.......it can be torturous I agree...needs a rework ...agreed.....

When compared to most other MMO's.....it laughably tame.

Basically no matter what DDO does that seems evil and consipiring....it pales in comparison to the evils of 99% of all other MMO devolopers.

[Cetus]

TRing is proof positive that this game resembles D&D less and less as time goes by.

That said, there's absolutely no reason why the TR exp penalties for 36 pt builds should be so high. Only a total loser irl actually wants to earn 4mil+ exp for each TR. 99.99% of the human population finds such repetition monotamous, boring and enervating.

Now some little fanboy can run along and go NOOOOO MUST earn 4mil+ exp the GODS/(devs) made it so! blah blah

Glad I "ragequit" (or maybe I just quit) on my 5th life. The TR system could have been a lot more interesting if the exp penalties weren't so obscenely high. Anybody that thinks grinding out those last couple levels for the 10th time is fun and normal needs a shrink. 18x whooo boy that's a LOT of therapy.

Like the devs originally said, the completionist feat is a joke. TRing and "epics" is DDOs idea of an end game, which is why this game has a cheesy end game. The typical rate of end game content expansion is once per year now in the gaming community. This game doesn't expand its end game much because its stuck using the same rules (d&d) that it also ignores whenever its convenient for their imaginations (enter TRing). The major selling point of DDO atm is its replayability for most of its players. The present TR system ruined a potential avenue of replayability because it made it so mind-numbingly boring only the most lame human beings I can imagine while stoned on hash could possibly consider this entertainment. If there was some Illuminati conspiracy to turn the world's youth into mindless zombies, then they would be wise to sponsor the TR system in DDO.

Wait...so you like the TR system?

[callforkills]

This would make some chars overpowered - If you've been TR'ing 30+ times you'll get 28 more build points?
Huh?? That would be 64 build points and you'd probably be able to cap every stat.. almost.. Not many newbs
would be able to make it ito groups because people would prefer TR'ed players even more.

[Deamus]

Definitely not signed!

The op suggestions are game breaking.
Each TR life the completionist gains a past life free feat which is more than enough for bonus.
Also completionist feat should not be free as it is the most powerful feat in the game.

No one forced the completionists to do all this grind and they already knew all along the bonus that they would get , there is no no need for changes .

Finally the gap between a non TR toon and a completionist will be huge with those sugestions and would make Completionist grind to be somehow "mandatory" so as to have an effective and competitive char.

Please leave completionist as it is . Not all people want to waste a real life in the game to be competitive!

[redoubt]

This would make some chars overpowered - If you've been TR'ing 30+ times you'll get 28 more build points?
Huh?? That would be 64 build points and you'd probably be able to cap every stat.. almost.. Not many newbs
would be able to make it ito groups because people would prefer TR'ed players even more.

This is a moot point.

Since F2P, and the changes to the way xp is awarded, many vets have stopped pugging. TRs are only a sliver of the reason.

As for extra build points causing the issue, again, that's moot. On my first TR I could already solo to level 10 before new players would hit level 5. The experience, gear, dungeon scaling, DA, and character level to quest relationship xp facter all make experienced players run in core groups or solo. I know that's why I do it.

Don't believe me? I'm on life 4 on one char at level 7 currently. I've glanced at the LFM on occasion. I'll see groups waiting on healers to run something. 20 minutes later, after I've run the same quest 10 times, that group is still standing at the entrance waiting for a healer. Consider this 10x the factor in why vets don't run as often with new players.

[Sebastrd]

/signed

I like the xp suggestion the best. It doesn't even have to be 5%. Even 1% per life after the second TR would be nice.

[Mudcnd]

This is a moot point.

Since F2P, and the changes to the way xp is awarded, many vets have stopped pugging. TRs are only a sliver of the reason.

As for extra build points causing the issue, again, that's moot. On my first TR I could already solo to level 10 before new players would hit level 5. The experience, gear, dungeon scaling, DA, and character level to quest relationship xp facter all make experienced players run in core groups or solo. I know that's why I do it.

Don't believe me? I'm on life 4 on one char at level 7 currently. I've glanced at the LFM on occasion. I'll see groups waiting on healers to run something. 20 minutes later, after I've run the same quest 10 times, that group is still standing at the entrance waiting for a healer. Consider this 10x the factor in why vets don't run as often with new players.

Well said .

I agree with the op the completionist feat should be free.

And some kinda % xp bonus perlife would be nice .

I would also say that +1 build point for the 36 p build , would be ok too

[Cetus]

Definitely not signed!

Also completionist feat should not be free as it is the most powerful feat in the game.

No one forced the completionists to do all this grind and they already knew all along the bonus that they would get , there is no no need for changes .

Finally the gap between a non TR toon and a completionist will be huge with those sugestions and would make Completionist grind to be somehow "mandatory" so as to have an effective and competitive char.

Please leave completionist as it is . Not all people want to waste a real life in the game to be competitive!

So, you think the completionist feat shouldn't be free just so you can stay "competitive" without doing any work for it?

Face it, TR'ing is a big part of end game here. If you grind out a completionist feat I'd expect it to be a free.

[Deamus]

So, you think the completionist feat shouldn't be free just so you can stay "competitive" without doing any work for it?

Face it, TR'ing is a big part of end game here. If you grind out a completionist feat I'd expect it to be a free.

Some work ? lol Seriously ??????????Losing RL is some work .....?

It's game breaking and you, i think must face the truth .OP is exaggerating in every sentence also all the other posters who support it, which my guess are also completionists that crave for more power they do not consider balance . Newbies/Non TR vs Completionist gap will be huge!

I thought also that epic questing was end game as most people suggest and not TR .....

PS. I i think i fed the troll......:P

[Cetus]

Some work ? lol Seriously ??????????Losing RL is some work .....?

It's game breaking and you, i think must face the truth .OP is exaggerating in every sentence also all the other posters who support it, which my guess are also completionists that crave for more power they do not consider balance . Newbies/Non TR vs Completionist gap will be huge!

I thought also that epic questing was end game as most people suggest and not TR .....

PS. I i think i fed the troll......:P

TR'ing is not synonymous with "having no life." The fact that you are even providing input on these boards shows that you put at least some time into this game.

Some people choose to spend that time leveling, which may be fun for them.

You can spend 12 hours a day scroll farming to try and acquire the epic gear you desire for your characters. According to your rationale, a fully epically geared level 20 shouldn't overpower the non-epic geared level 20 either, because that person has a life doesn't he?

In terms of the time spent theres no difference between spending a couple weeks to get some past lives into your character or spending months upon months getting all the epic gear in the game to work together on several characters.

Your argument provides no working evidence against the feat being free.


PS. quote: "Newbies/Non TR vs Completionist gap will be huge!" umm *YEA* thats the point. Your newly rolled up newbie should be wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy less powerful than your equivalent fully geared level 20 COMPLETIONIST version. Why do you even mention newbies in your post? If they want to get as powerful let them play the game for a couple years, get all the gear they need, get their builds straight, and maybe do a couple TR's.