Consolidated Dragonmarks

[LookingForABentoBox]

(TL;DR version:
Dragonmarks are weak the way they are, make one selectable feat give all dragonmark abilities as the character gains levels.)

I don't think I'm the only one that feels that the dragonmark lines aren't powerful enough to warrant 3 feats. Some of the abilities are easily obtainable on potions or clickies. There are ones that are available from scrolls only but for many (most?) builds a skill focus: umd feat would be enough to get their umd to high enough levels to be able to cast spells such as invisibility or fire trap. There are some ones which are genuinely useful but having to spend a feat on expedition retreat so that I can take another feat for a dimension door spell like ability isn't a very sound choice for many characters, roleplaying builds excluded. I suggest the following:

Replace all the dragonmark feats with one feat for each dragonmark line. The dragonmark feat would automatically grant you the lesser dragonmark's bonus, at level 6 it would give you the least dragonmark's bonus, at level 9 it would give you the greater dragonmark's bonus. These levels are the minimum levels necessary to take the second and third tier of dragonmarks. I don't think one feat that gives you cure light wounds, cure serious wounds, and heal is overpowered considered the increase of hp and decrease in usefulness of lower level heals as a character gains levels. Same thing with spells that do damage and higher level mobs having higher hit points.

Characters that have already taken multiple dragonmark feats would have their feats automatically swapped for a feat with universal usefulness like toughness, or maybe a new feat that would make dragonmarks more powerful or usable more often.

[Shyver]

This would push the halfling dragonmarks even further ahead than they are now. Instead of consolidating the marks the Devs just need to improve them to the level that you want to spend a feat to get them.

[Darkrok]

Exactly - 1 feat for everything the halfling line gives is too good. But I agree that the others are really wanting.

[Fishcatch22]

I support the basic idea, but this part I disagree with:


Characters that have already taken multiple dragonmark feats would have their feats automatically swapped for a feat with universal usefulness like toughness, or maybe a new feat that would make dragonmarks more powerful or usable more often. That is unnecessary, the devs can just give everyone 2 free feat exchange tokens or something.

While most dragonmarks are meh, the halfling one would actually have to be nerfed if this were to occur.

[Shyver]

( I don't think one feat that gives you cure light wounds, cure serious wounds, and heal is overpowered considered the increase of hp and decrease in usefulness of lower level heals as a character gains levels.

Just a note on the healing line. As a halfling with Extra Dragonmark use 4 I get:

5 Heals
7 Cure Serious
9 Cure Lights

I'll admit that the Cure Lights are of little importance other than an oh **** last case, I need to spam heal myself. But the Cure serious and Heals are very powerful, even at level 20. With a Superior Ardor 6 clicky going and 30% healing amp the spells hit for:

5 Heals @ 340 each = 1700
7 Cure Serious @ ~76 each = ~532
9 Cure Light @ ~28 each = ~252

That's ~2484 of healing punch you want to wrap it up into one feat. That's just over the top to me and it would be taken by 100% of the halflings out there, where now it's only an if I can fit it in type of thing.

[Musouka]

I like this idea. But disagree with implementing the cost to respec feats.

When they improved on skill enhancements by making them cost 1 AP, and removed the class based skill bonuses so you can have multiple prestiges that require teh same skill enhancers, they made everyone pay the plat to respec their enhancements to get back their action points. So if someone wants to swap the feats, they should have to pay to respec.

An alternative suggestion would be that after a certain level you lose the previous ability, but still gain the skill bonus. Like at level 9 the halfling mark will only do base of 2 cure serious... then at level 18 they'll only do base of 1 Heal. That way with Extra Dragonmark use 4 will only give 5 heals. No cure serious and no Cure Light.

[LookingForABentoBox]

I support the basic idea, but this part I disagree with:

That is unnecessary, the devs can just give everyone 2 free feat exchange tokens or something.

While most dragonmarks are meh, the halfling one would actually have to be nerfed if this were to occur.

To your first point, I just don't think turbine would do that, given as they don't give skill respecs when they change skills or enhancement respecs when they change enhancements. Have they ever changed a feat before? Did they give feat respec tokens then?

To your second, I'm okay with the whole dragonmark system being given a pass to make them balanced, I just think the system the way it is currently implemented is lacking.

[Shyver]

An alternative suggestion would be that after a certain level you lose the previous ability, but still gain the skill bonus. Like at level 9 the halfling mark will only do base of 2 cure serious... then at level 18 they'll only do base of 1 Heal. That way with Extra Dragonmark use 4 will only give 5 heals. No cure serious and no Cure Light.

While balancing the halfling marks a bit under the suggestion in the OP, this would actualy harm all of the other lines that have (semi)useful lower level abilities like Invisibility (elves) and Expeditious Retreat (Humans) as examples.

[LookingForABentoBox]

I like this idea. But disagree with implementing the cost to respec feats.

When they improved on skill enhancements by making them cost 1 AP, and removed the class based skill bonuses so you can have multiple prestiges that require teh same skill enhancers, they made everyone pay the plat to respec their enhancements to get back their action points. So if someone wants to swap the feats, they should have to pay to respec.

An alternative suggestion would be that after a certain level you lose the previous ability, but still gain the skill bonus. Like at level 9 the halfling mark will only do base of 2 cure serious... then at level 18 they'll only do base of 1 Heal. That way with Extra Dragonmark use 4 will only give 5 heals. No cure serious and no Cure Light.

Well swapping enhancements doesn't cost a million or more plat at higher levels to buy a flawless shard, but in any event I don't think turbine would do it.

And to your latter, I don't think that's a good idea, seeing as I personally find dimension door (tier II) more useful than teleport (tier III) and people might find other tier Is or IIs more useful than IIs or IIIs.

[Musouka]

While balancing the halfling marks a bit under the suggestion in the OP, this would actualy harm all of the other lines that have (semi)useful lower level abilities like Invisibility (elves) and Expeditious Retreat (Humans) as examples.

Then perhaps make the line give a maximum number of uses for all 3 abilities. Use 1 and it counts against the others at the same time. So assume I get 1 use from taking the feat. Then once it gains a new ability maybe 1 extra use, and again at the last ability. I know then taking extra use 4 would then give you 7 heals if you were halfling. The second part of this suggestion would be to make extra uses cost double. For 1 extra use cost 2 points, 2 extra uses an extra 4 points. And so on.

Before totally dismissing this suggestion from the OP, how could we make Dragonmarks better?

I'm actually enjoying this discussion as it does add some insight to how the Devs must interact with one another when trying to come up with new content.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

To your first point, I just don't think turbine would do that, given as they don't give skill respecs when they change skills or enhancement respecs when they change enhancements. Have they ever changed a feat before? Did they give feat respec tokens then?

To your second, I'm okay with the whole dragonmark system being given a pass to make them balanced, I just think the system the way it is currently implemented is lacking.

They don't give skill respecs because the respec cost is trivial.

In the past when they have significantly changed feats (its been quite a while... making rogue speciality feats selectable comes to mind as an example) they did give free feat respects tokens for each feat involved that you already had.

[donfilibuster]

/not signed

dragonmarks are not for everyone, they are worth to have if you intend to put them to good use.

some marks seem weak because there's clickies that accomplish the same thing, like invisibility on elf.
we can ask the devs to make the duration worthwile, etc. when compared to clickies, but otherwise all are useful to some extent.

also, a strong feat or item need not be unlimited or continual effect.

[sephiroth1084]

And there's the problem: all but one of the dragonmarks really warrant the expenditure of only 1 feat, but because one of the marks is so powerful, the whole structure must remain as is.

That leaves either nerfing the hell out of the halfling dragonmark in order to justify its only costing 1 feat, which no one will like, or buff the rest of the dragonmarks enough that they become worth spending 3 feats on. That said, I think 3 feats are very difficult to swing on most non-fighters, non-monks, non-wizards, which is another issue.

I'd like to see them turned into a single feat, but I just can't imagine any way to nerf the halfling mark in a way that would leave it useful and attractive and balanced.

[Angelus_dead]

They don't give skill respecs because the respec cost is trivial.
That is untrue: skill respecs are far from trivial... they are absolutely more expensive than feat respecs!

[Lorien_the_First_One]

That is untrue: skill respecs are far from trivial... they are absolutely more expensive than feat respecs!

Bah, he said skill or enhancement and I meant to say enhancement.

Skills have been changed in a significant way...um...when?

[Angelus_dead]

That leaves either nerfing the hell out of the halfling dragonmark in order to justify its only costing 1 feat, which no one will like
Actually, fairly few players care much about the halfling dragonmark, even though it is the strongest one.


I'd like to see them turned into a single feat, but I just can't imagine any way to nerf the halfling mark in a way that would leave it useful and attractive and balanced.
Oh, there are tons of ways it could be nerfed, including cooldowns, charges, and compatibility with boosts/metas.

They could even do the brute-force change and make Greater Mark of Healing not be a Heal spell...

[LookingForABentoBox]

Bah, he said skill or enhancement and I meant to say enhancement.

Skills have been changed in a significant way...um...when?

They recently made intimidate a paladin class skill.

[donfilibuster]

Even if not all halflings take dragonmarks it is still an option to use in your builds.
That marks aren't popular dun neccessarily mean they need to change at its core, surely all that is need is a few tweaks to the bonuses you get, like duration.

The Tharashk, Jorasco, Cannith, and Orien marks need no fixing.

The Phiarlan can use some longer duration, but isn't weak.
May be the Deneith ones can have higher duration too, but that one seems way weaker.
Lyrandar mark looks good but elec loop might need a good DC for the stun.

Of all the marks the Kundarak ones look the weakest to me, feel free to suggest changing these.

[sephiroth1084]

Actually, fairly few players care much about the halfling dragonmark, even though it is the strongest one.
Would that be the case if they were condensed into a single feat? I don't think I could justify rolling a halfling and not taking a feat that granted all that.



Oh, there are tons of ways it could be nerfed, including cooldowns, charges, and compatibility with boosts/metas. That would help, but I don't know if it would be enough; or too much.


They could even do the brute-force change and make Greater Mark of Healing not be a Heal spell...
Would anyone take it if it were changed to, say, Mass Cure X?

[donfilibuster]

Naturally, a good chunk of the marks power is lost by the lack of roleplaying factors.
In ddo the mark owners are stripped of all the recognition value they had on PnP.

I'd go as far as saying that taking a mark in ddo should automatically gain favor with that house.
The small powers are extra, and are there just to let u do things that the house did well already.

[Lithic]

TL:DR, so might have been said before:

Instead of using 3 feats, they should make it 1 feat (as the OP suggests) that unlocks enhancements that mimic the current 2nd and 3rd tier feats.

The (currently) worst DM feats could cost 1AP for tier 2, and 2 for tier 3. The best (halfling) could be 4AP for tier 2, and 6-8 more for tier 3.

[sephiroth1084]

I'd go as far as saying that taking a mark in ddo should automatically gain favor with that house.
The small powers are extra, and are there just to let u do things that the house did well already.
That would just make them early level feats you swap out later.

[andbr22]

Well they will have to do something aboout it around time when they finally add Dragonmak PrE.
curently. Maybe they could make for Greater DM some effects not availble for casters.
Also not 1 feat, not 3 feats but maybe 2 feats (first open least and lesser, second open greater and provide bonuss usages for least and lesser).

Canith - well only to support fellow WF. not worth over all. maybe for tier 1, 2 some enchanments from future artificer class. Greater maybe enchant to add repair bonuss for WF?
Orien - nice but could be better. Maybe new places where you can teleport at Greater dragonmark, or even binding location (you buy some ston of binding from specific vendor, and use it where you want to bind location and you have this location on your teleport list), also possibility to cast tleports on party members.
Denith - generally nice DM line. Maybe for Tier 3 add that orb of invurablity potect only from harmfull efects (not dispell positive ones).
Tharashk - Least tier would change it to auto break near brekables (unles they are life hazard), and collect all gold in ground. Greater tier could provide +1 lv bonus to loot and 150%-200% bonus to found gold in chest (after we count +1 lv).
Piarlan - nice one Invi usefull to get to your destination, displacement pricless, and Shadowalk dissapointing (cool invi + dispalacement + movment bost 50%, but easly to finish (1 fired arrow, 1 hit thing, 1 used object) and obscured vision (30 ft of visibility it is big nerf, sometimes too big compared to bonus. I lost in my way to PoP -> this is bad).Maybe as Greater DM some long lost lv 2 spell trown away due its OP-ness Mirror Image.
Jorasco - least well rather weak, lesser - nice one, greater - seriously powerfull. Maybe as greater tier some cleneasing spell (cures all bad aliments (including stone and curse) but don't heal HP (or heal like k8 +1 per level (max 20)).
Lyrandar - good as it is (too bad the most of time its DC is too low due to CHA requirement (for characters that can afford to fit it to build), and awwfully high monsters DCs). Maybe for greater some sort of weather control (like peak of Temprest spine) slow movment, concalment, possibility to trip.
Kundarak - pearl of all DM. most usless of all. "Too bad the most of time its DC is too low due to CHA requirement (for characters that can afford to fit it to build), and awwfully high monsters DCs" + Dwarves have low CHA at it is. Demage dealing -> please no enchantment lines to boost dmg or even in most builds empower and maximalize to boost dmg. Also 99% of game you go to monsters, and not wait for moanters to come and hit you throught those all DD symbols. Seriously it should be seperate topic to list possible changes (and seriously I have no idea).

[Alabore]

While most dragonmarks are meh, the halfling one would actually have to be nerfed if this were to occur.

I like the idea too.
Make higher tiers scale with char level AND be bought with AP.
That way, less need to nerf to halfling mark; just make AP cost sufficiently steep.

...

EDIT:

What Lithic said...

:D

[donfilibuster]

That would just make them early level feats you swap out later.

In theory you shouldn't be able to swap out the marks, they may appear on you, being dormant powers, but they are part of you.
Just like warforged body feats, which you can't change with fred.

But then again you can do anything with the right ritual, but some cost more than others.
And then if you swap out a mark you will be out of favor in that house, and stolen their secrets.